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Publications  of  the 
Carnegie  Endowment  for  International  Peace 
Division  of  International  Law 
Wathin^ton 


THE  DEBATES  IN 
THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF   1787 
WHICH  FRAMED  THE  CONSTITUTION 
OF  THE  UNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA 

KIPORTBO  IT 

JAMES  MADISON 

A  L>cl«g>te  from  the  SUU  of  Virgia:* 


International  Edition 


GAILLARD  HUNT   and   JAMES  BROWN  SCOTT 

BOITORS 


I  was 


H.nry  the  4th  in^^l^ut^Z^'Lj^l^ ^'^:S':rT7 ^''''  ^'P^  "'  ^ 
Repubhek  of  all  its  different  Statw  *  kV^Ii!™.  t ''  ^°'''"  '"''  0»«  O""* 
tion:  for  we  had  many  Intere.t.  to  reconcile *^?R.^;-  ^^.'^^'^^  "  '»''•  C»w«- 
October  22.  1787.    i)5c«m«n,S.V%L*^"'',  ,i?1?i!"^.I""k»°. »«  Mr  Grand, 


i>Souw^V>;.7;^-;,  rrsr^?N^o"..v^ 


pp.  341' 


NEW  YORK 
OXFORD  UNIVERSITY  PRESS 

AMWUCAH  BRANCH:  M  Win  Hn  Snnt 

"HDOM.  TOUOKTa  MILBOHWIE.  AND  BOMBAT 

IMO 


f 


M--\5 


r  i 


COPYKICHT  tfiW 

If  tai 

CAKNtGII  ENDOWMENT  FOR  INTEINATIONAL  PEACE 

WuaiMatOH.  D.  C. 


EXTRACT  FROM  THE  WILL  OF  JAMES  MADISON' 
Apul  19,  1835 

Considering  the  peculiarity  and  magnitude  of  the  occasion  which 
produced  the  convention  at  PLiladelphia  in  1787,  the  Characten  who 
composed  it,  the  Constitution  which  resulted  from  their  deliberation, 
it's  effects  daring  a  trial  of  so  many  years  on  the  prosperity  of  the 
people  living  under  it,  and  the  interest  it  has  inspired  among  the 
friends  of  tnt  Govemmeni,  it  is  not  an  unreasonable  inference  that 
a  careful  and  extended  report  of  the  proceedings  and  discussions  of 
that  body,  which  were  with  closed  doors,  by  a  member  who  was  con- 
stant in  his  attendance,  will  be  particularly  gratifying  to  the  people 
of  the  United  States,  and  to  all  who  take  an  interest  in  the  progress 
of  political  science  and  the  cause  of  true  liberty. 

'  WHtimf  0/  Jtmt  MOiton  (Boat,  Bditor),  Vol.  IX  (1010),  p.  M». 


fcSfJi) 


TABLE  OF  CONTENTS 


I    Mr   lUdlMMi't  RMord  . 
II    TU  radantl  CoavMllwi 


ol  ITST  u  iBttraatUiMl  Omti 


MM 
BBl 

uv 


PART  I 

ANTECSOBNTS  OF  TBI  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787. 

DscLAiATioir  or  ItrsBniBmci snlU 

AarictjM  or  CoRfnauTum xxxril 

RsaoLDTioR  or  TUB  Obmbui.  AsmfBtT  or  VnaiwiA,  Jarvabt  II,  17M, 
norMiNs  A  ioiin  MBinira  or  tbb  oouMiMioRaa  nou  thb  BtArat 
TO  ooRsna  amb  awoiiincm  a  Fboal  flak  iob  nauLAmia  oom- 

MUCB Xlvll 

PaocEBDiNM  or  OoMMiMioinaw  to  wanaart  vwnan  or  nn  FnoAi.  Gov- 

nRMKMT,  AlllfAMUS,  llAaTUMIB,  SBTnitm  II,  I7M  .  sWiU 

Fjmmr  or  PaoonmiM  in  0>iiauM,  Fihuait  tl,  1787,  omnmnm 

McoMifniDATnM  or  AwHAPOua  OommmoN lili 

Cbbobntiau  or  tatamM  or  tbb  Fbmbui.  OomriNTioiii       .      .      .      .     M 

HUt«  of  N«w  Huapahlr* M 

SUta  of  llMMckiMatU Ml 

BUto  of  CoBMetieut Irili 

8Ut«  of  N«w  York lis 

HUU  of  New  Jntmj bd 

8UU  of  PMwqrlTKDia Ixiil 

BUto  of  Dtlawar* Ixvi 

SUto  of  llaryUod Ixrii 

BUto  of  Viri^Bki fanlil 

BUto  of  North  Caroltna Ixxtl 

SUto  of  Bo«tli  CuoliM borl 

BUto  of  Ooorgi* Ixxis 

Lirr  or  ocueaATn  Arrontm  it  Stath  h    i  r*  n  m  Fobbal 

CoKv«HTioi» tsziiii 

Maiob  William  Pnaoi,  Ckabactos  in  nn  Oortbitior  or  Tn  Stasm 

■XLD  AY  PHLABBUBIA.  MAT,  1787 IXIXtI 


PARTn. 

THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787.* 

Maotmn's  PacTACB— a  Skctoh  Nim  Fitomd  rob  AmAD 

Neceitity  of  political  eoafwtorMica— Maotlag  of  ooloalkl  doptttle*  at 
Albany  in  1764— OngraM  of  1774— of  177S— DaeUration  of  Inda- 
pendanea — Artielaa  of  Confaderation — Franklin'a  plan— Diflenltiaa  ia 
the  way  of  a  eonfadaration. 


>T;ie  Tatda  of  Cmtoito  w  Tha  Dabataa  ta  tha  Fadaral  ConravtioB  of  1787 
la,  with  tha  czecptioa  of  the  flrat  entry,  the  Saaaion  of  Thnraday,  June  14,  aad 
the  Tarlotia  itema  in  the  Appendix,  reproduced  from  OoeiMienlary  Bittory  of  tk» 
Contitution  of  tk€  VniUd  BUtm  of  Amerteo,  Vol.  Ill  (ISOO),  pp.  r-xix. 

Til 


via 


CONTENTS 


Tjum 


17 
17 


18 


21 


27 


31 


„  —    .n>    VrnTBAT    CONVENTION    OF    1787    WHICH    FBAMED   THE 

■'^'  ^^^^rr  ",o"'oF  "r  UN^r^'sT^TEs  or  Amf3.ca,  bepobt^,  bt 
S^SKIdison.  A  Deleoatf  :bom  th«  State  of  Viboinia 

Monday,   May  H         ■        ^. 

Meeting  of  the  convention. 

'^tk.n^nfioi^orKanized-Washin^on  made  president.  Major  Jackson, 
^creUry-C?edential8  of   deputies  from  Delaware-Committee 

on  rules. 
""^^^s^oTpr^odure  reporter?,  discussed,- and  adopUd-Letter  "from 

Rhode  Island, 
''"•fdditf^nal  ruIes-lRandolph-s  plan-Pinclcne,'»-:Randolpii's  speech 

and  text  of  his  propositions. 

'^*'^c2fv?ntiSoes  into  committee  of  ihe  whole.      '        '       '       '       ' 

R^do"ph'"  first  proposition  withdrawn  and  anothrr  substituted- 

The   Government   to   be  national,   not   federal-Divu.on   of   its 

Randolph's  second  proposition  discussed  and  postponed.   ^ 

Thursday,  May  HI  j  , 

S"tu^'rdi'it'sXCe"X'hatti.e  nr.t  branch  of  the  Legis- 
"".atr/t  eiSly  th?  people-Consideration  of  qualifications. 

etc.,  of  membors  of  the  first  branch  postponed. 
Randolph's  fifth  proposition  discussed  and  not  agreed  to. 
HUs^xth  agreed  to  except  as  to  the  exertion  of  the  power  of  the 

General   Government   against   a   delinquent   State,    which  waa 

postponed. 

'^ndorph'l  seventh  proposition  discussod-Motion  for  a  singk  Ex- 
^ut We  Postponed-Amendments  givmg  the   Kx«cut,ve  power  to 
S^ute  the  laws  and  to  appoint  to  offices,  and  that  he  be  elected 
for  seven  years,  agreed  to. 

*'*"Elec''tiol"of  the  Executive  by  an  electoral  ^""T  "T^^^T^.ftd 
that  he  he  chosen  by  the  Legislature— Amendment  that  the 
ExtuUve  receWe  no  salary  postponed-Agreed  that  he  be  ineligi- 
ble for  a  second  term  and  be  removable  on  impeachment. 

"'"'^A^eTtLi  the  Executive  consist  of  one  person-Randolph's  eighth 
oroposition  coi.sidered-Clause  providing  for  a  council  of  re- 
?[Tn  postponed-Amendment  giving  Kxecutive  an  abso  ute  veto 
d  saererd  to-Likewise  amendment  giving  him  power  of  suspen- 
s ioTof  legislative  acts-Qualified  veto  granted  to  the  Executive- 
Randolph's  ninth  proposition  considered— Amendment  that  the 
national  judiciary  consist  of  one  supreme  and  one  or  more 
inferior  tribunals  adopted. 

"■""Appoinimentof  the  judiciary  by  the  Logisiature  "^Katived-That 
thoy  hold  office  during  poo<l  Ubav.or  and  receive  flx;^  com- 
pensation, which  should  neither  be  increased  nor  dimini8he<l,  is 
.\,,rppd  to— Remainder  of  the  ninth  proposition  postponed— Ran- 
dolph's tenth  proposition  agreed  fo-Randolph's  eleventh  proposi- 
tion postponed-His  twelfth  proposition  agrc..d  to-Hi.  thir- 
teenth proposition  postponed-Randolph's  fourteenth  proposition 
nostnoned—His  fifteenth  proposition  considered  and  postponed. 
"  Inferior  tribunals  "  stricken  out  of  the  ninth  proposition  and 
tlie  National  Legislature  empowered  to  create  inferior  tribunals. 

Wedneada/i,  June  6     .       •  


37 


41 


49 


66 


CONTENTS 


Amendment  of  the  fourth  propoaition,  that  members  of  the  flret 
branch  of  the  national  legislature  be  elected  by  State  legislatures, 
negatived— On  reconsideration,  amendment  of  the  eighth  proposi- 
tion, to  unite  a  member  of  the  judiciary  with  Executive  in  the 
revision  of  legislative  acts,  disagreed  to. 
Thur$day,  June  7 gg 

Election  of  members  of  the  Senate  by  SUte  legiaUtures  discussed 
and  agreed  to. 
Friday,  June  8 yr, 

Motion  to  extend  the  negative  of  the  Legislature  to'  all  such  acts 

of  State  legislatures  as  should  be  deemed  improper  not  aereed  to 

Saturday,  June  9 .       _  79 

Election  of  the  Executive  by  the  executives  of   the  States  not 
agreed  to— Ratio  of  representation  in  the  Legislature  diwussed. 
Monday,  June  11 34 

Ratio  of  represenUtion  resumed— Agreed  that  the  n.'  of  the 
Articles  of  Confederation  be  not  adopted— Representation  accord- 
ing to  quotas  of  contribution  postponed— Agreed  that  the  ratio 
be  according  to  the  whole  number  of  free  citizens  and  three-fifths 
of  all  other  persons— Rule  allowing  each  State  one  voU  in  the 
second  branch  not  agreed  to— Agreed  that  the  ratio  in  the  second 
be  the  same  as  that  in  the  first  branch  of  the  Legislature- 
Federal  guaranty  of  a  republican  government  and  of  its  territory 
to  each  State  agreed  to — Amendment  guarantying  a  republican 
institution  and  its  existing  laws  to  each  State  was  agreed  to— 

Randolph's  provisions  for  amending  the  Constitution  agreed  to 

Provision    making    the    consent    of    the    National    Legislature 
unnecessary  to  amend  Constitution  postponed. 

Randolph's  fourteenth  proposition,  requiring  oath  of  fidelity  from 
national  and  State  officers,  agreed  to. 
Tuetday,  June  12 jj 

Randolph's  fifteenth  proposition,   relative  to  ratification  by   the 

people,  agreed  to. 
Agreed  that  members  of  the  first  branch  of  the  Legislature  be 
'  **^  t"^^  ^'^  years— Limitation  of  age  of  members  not 
agrrad  to — Amendments  that  corapensation  of  members  should 
be  fixed  and  that  they  should  be  paid  out  of  the  National 
Treasury  agreed  to— Likewise  that  they  be  ineligible  to  State 
offices  and  to  national  offices  during  their  term  of  service  and 
for  ont  year— Clause  prohibiting  their  reelection  and  providing 
for  their  recall  not  a,TTeed  to— That  Senators  shall  be  30  years 
of  age  agreed  to— Likewise  that  their  term  of  office  be  for 
Beven  years,  but  not  that  they  be  entitled  to  no  compensation- 
Agreed  that  the  compensation  and  ineligibility  of  the  first 
branch  apply  to  the  second  also— Jurisdiction  of  the  Supremu 
Court  amended,  and  its  consideration  then  postponed. 

Wednesday,  June  IS .  g« 

Jurisdiction  of  national  tribunals  considered— Agreed  that  judges 
be  appointed  by  the  Senate— But  not  that  the  Senate  be  pro- 
hibited from  originating  appropriation  bills. 
Report  of  the  committee  of  the  whole— Text  of  the  resolutions 
adopted  by  it. 

Thursday,  June  H .„, 

Upon  the  request  of  several  deputations',  the"  Convention  idjoimed 
to  meet  the  15th,  in  order  to  allow  the  members  further  time  to 
contemplate  the  plan  reported  from  the  Committee  of  the  Whole 
and  to  digest  one  purely  federal  in  its  nature. 

Fnday,  June  IS jUj 

Paterson's  nine  resolutions  to  be  substituted  for  the  report  of  the 
committee  of  the  whole— Sentiments  of  the  different  States  upon 
a  revision  of  the  Articles  of  Confederation  and  upon  «  new  nUa 
of  government.  ' 


CONTENTS 


rAos 

Baturdag,  June  19 104 

DiKUHion  and  oompariioii  of  tbe  two  plans,  mort  particularly  of 
the  firat  reioltttion  of  aacli  relatW*  to  diaractcr  of  propoaed 
government. 

Monday,  June  18 Ill 

Paterion'e  flrtt  reiolutioB  poatponed — ^Hamilton's  plan. 

Tuetday,  June  19 120 

Pat«r8on's  first  resolution  postponed — Randolph's  propositions,  as 
before  amended  and  adopted  by  the  committee,  reported  back 
unchanged  and  first  resolution  considered. 

Wednesday,  June  SO 131 

Amendment  that  a  Govemment  of  the  United  States  be  established 
adopted — Second  resolution — The  word  "  national "  striclcen  out 
— Amendment  that  "legislation  b*  vested  in  the  United  States 
in  Congress  "  voted  down. 

Tkundaf,  June  tl 139 

Second  resolution,  that  the  Legislature  consist  of  two  branches, 

resumed  and  agreed  to. 
Third  resolution — Amendment  that  the  first  branch  be  elected  as 
the  various  State  legislatures  should  direct  not  agreed  to— That 
that  branch  be  elected  by  the  people  adopted — ^That  it  be  sleeted 
for  two  years  adopted. 

Fridajt,  June  tt 148 

Third  resolution — ^Amendment  that  salaries  of  nembers  be  fixed  by 
the  National  Legislature  not  agreed  to— That  the  words  "  Na- 
tional  Treasury"  be  stricken  out  not  agreed  to— "Adequate 
compensation"  substituted  for  "fixed  stipends" — ^Agreed  that 
members  of  the  first  branch  be  26  years  of  age — Ineligibility  of 
members  of  the  first  branch  to  offices  adhered  to. 

Saturday,  June  IS 161 

Third  resolution — Amendment  that  members  of  the  first  branch  be 
eligible  to  State  offices  adopted — Amendment  that  they  be  ineligi- 
ble to  such  national  offices  as  should  be  created  or  the  emolu- 
ments whereof  should  be  increased  while  they  were  members  not 
agreed  to — Extending  ineligibility  to  offices  for  one  year  after 
the  term  for  which  they  were  elected  not  agreed  to. 

Monday,  June  iS 156 

Fourth  resolution  considered — Agreed  that  members  of  the  second 
branch  be  elected  by  the  legislatures — That  they  be  30  years  of 
age — Minor  amendments — Motions  that  their  terms  of  <rfBce  be 
seven  years,  six  years,  and  five  years  defeated. 

Tuuday,  June  26 106 

Fourth  resolution — ^Agreed  that  they  serve  for  six  years,  one-third 
to  go  out  biennially — Amendment  that  they  receive  no  salary 
defeated — That  they  be  paid  by  their  respective  States  not  agreed 
to — Nor  that  the  words  "  be  paid  out  of  the  public  Treasury  " 
should  stand — Agreed  that  they  be  ineligible  to  national  offices 
during  their  term  and  for  one  year  longer — But  not  to  State 
offices — That  each  branch  have  the  right  to  originate  acts 
agreed  to. 

Wednetday,  June  27 174 

Sixth  resolution  postponed — Seventh  resolution,  relative  to  the 
rule  of  voting  in  Congress  considered. 

Thunday,  June  iS 176 

Seventh  resolution — Amendment  that  the  rule  of  voting  in  Con- 
gress be  as  esteblished  by  the  Articles  of  Confederation  consid- 
ered— Franklin's  motion  for  prayers. 

Friday,  June  29 182 

Seventh  resolution — Amendment  of  yesterday  agreed  to — Re- 
mainder of  the  seventh  resolution  postponed — Eighth  resolution 
taken  up— Rule  of  representetion  in  the  Senate  considered. 


CONTENTS 


FAOE 
190 


201 


806 


818 


220 


223 


Saturday,  Jwm  SO 

Eighth  rcMlutieii:— That  c«eh  State  have  an  equal  rote  in  the 
Senate  remaed— FrankliB'*  plan  of  rcgnlatimr  votin* 
Monday,  July  e — »       —»• 

Eighth  reaolntiou— That  each  SUte  have  an  eqaai  vote  in  the 
Senate  not  agreed  to— Agreed  to  commit  to  a  committee  of  one 
from  each  State. 

TKur$da]/,  July  S 

Report  of  the  committee  of  one  from  each  State  read  and  dia- 
ciuied— Amendment  that  representation  in  the  firrt  branch  be 
aeeordlng  to  contribution  defeated. 

Friday,  July  8 

"One  Repreeentative  for  every  40,000  inhabitanti''  recommitted 
to  a  committee  of  five— Agreed  that  the  Ant  branch  alone  ahould 
originate  appropriation  bUls.  "»"«"« 

Saturday,  July  7 

Eigh^reiolutlon— Agreed  that  each  State  shall  have  an  Mual 
■uifMge  in  the  second  branch.  ^ 

Monday,  July  9 

Bqiort  of  the  committee  of  Ave  coniidered-iseooiid  paragraph 
thereof,  anthoriiing  the  Legislature  to  regulate  the  raflo  of 

'*'*'^*^*''"' J'^  ^'^  *<»  **»••  •dopted— First  paiagraph, 
apportioning  the  number  of  Representatives  among  flie  States 
committed  to  a  committee  of  one  from  each  State 

Tuttdmy.  July  10 22^ 

Report  of  the  committee  of  yesterday,  apportioning  sixty-five 
RepresentaUves  among  the  States.  adoptS-Motion  that  the 

i^i^to^nilcSSS'  *"  •*  *"""  «^*"*»8«  repudiation 

Wednetday,  July  11 j,. 

Amendmoit  that  in  the  ratio  of  repreaentation  blaclcs  be  rated 
IS^rK  r*Sj'^*?  ^e****^— Amendment  that  a  census' of  free 
wbite  inhaUtanto  be  talun  agreed  to— That  five  sUvm  be  rated 
TilK'S^  ^"i?  ^^^*  ratlfdefeated-That  V JSSZ  U  3c» 
the  flnt  yew  ^tw  the  meeting  of  the  Legislature  carried— Lilce- 
wise  that  one  be  taken  evvryflfteen  yem 

Tkunday,  July  It     .....       , 

Amed  that  direct  taxation  be  in  pro^rtiim  ti  representation— 
LUnwise  that  a  census  be  talten  within  two  years  after  the  first 
meetingof  the  Legislature;  that  one  be  talnn  every  ten  years 
thereafter,  and  that  slaves  be  rated  in  proportion  to  whites  as 
nve  to  tnrea. 

Friday,  July  IS 

Apeed  that  untU  a  census  be  taken  in  i^ne^  raised  by  direct 
taxation  slwuld  be  proportioned  according  to  the  number  of 
Representative»-Provislons  authorizing  the  Legislature  to  ad- 
lust  representation  according  to  the  proportion  of  wealth  and 
inhaMtanto  reeonaidered,  and  the  number  of  inhabitante  made 
tne  rule. 

Saturday,  July  H 

That  the  Represoitatives  of  future  new  States  never  exceed  in 
number  those  of  the  original  States  not  agreed  to— On  reconsid- 
Matton  of  the  equality  of  States  in  the  second  branch  no  change 

Monday,  July  18 258 

Seventhand  ei^th  resolutions,  providing  for  represeixtation  iii  the 
two  branches  and  for  proportionate  direct  taxation,  agree!  to 
as  amended— Sixth  resolution,  relating  to  the  powers  of  Con- 
gress, considered. 

Titesdoy,  July  n 263 

Sixth  resolution— Amendment  that  Congress  have  power  to  jegis- 


241 


246 


261 


xfi 


CONTENTS 


late  in  all  inatteM  escpt  thowi  of  Interna  police  not  *re«d  t»- 
jSiendm*nt  that  Congreit  have  powir  to  Ugitlate  in  caiei  affect- 
^  the  ^neral  int^rt^  and  where  the  State,  are  -P*"^  7 
ncompetent,  etc.,  agreed  to-The  negative  of  CongreM  on  certain 
UvTofstite.  not  agreed  t<^That  all  law.  of  the  Umted 
Statea  and  all  treatie.  shall  be  the  .upreme  law,  etc.,  agreed 

Ki^th  re«.lution  con.idered-Agreed  that  the  E«c««ve  beone 
oerBon— That  he  be  not  elected  by  the  people— Nor  by  elector* 
Appointed  by  legi.lature^-But  that  he  be  chow-n  by  the  National 
ffilaturel-That  he  be  charged  to  execute  the  national  law. 
aareed  to— So  that  he  appoint  to  office,  in  care,  not  otherwiw 
proved  for-So  that  hrbe  not  ineligible  a  «cond  time-But 
not  that  he  be  appointed  during  good  behavior— Amendment  that 
he  be  not  elected  for  wven  year,  defeated. 

'^'^^'nth  r;i;*/u'tion  talcen  up-That  the  Executive  have  a  veto  onlaw. 
not  afterwards  pa.«-d  by  two-third.  of  the  Legislature  agreed  to^ 

Eleventh  resolution  con.idered-That  the  judiciary  con.ist  of  one 
nipreme  tribunal  adopted-Appointment  "'J'^e^  »'*''"  ~^ 
coisidered-Agreed  that  they  ho  d  office  during  P~d  tehaiMor 
and  receive  fixed  salaries  in  which  no  diminution  should  take 
place— Agreed  further  that  the  Legislature  have  power  to  e.Ub- 
lish  inferior  tribunals.  .  _.♦«„„.! 

Thirteenth  resolution  considered  and  jurisdiction  of  the  national 
judiciary  defined.  .    .  _ 

Fourteenth   resolution,  providing  for   admission   of   new   SUte., 

Fifteenth  resolution,  relative  to  continuance  of  CongrcM  and  com- 
pletion of  its  engagements,  not  agreed  to. 

Sixteenth  resolution  considered- Amendment  that  a  republican 
form  of  government  be  guaranteed  to  each  SUte  and  it  be  pro 
tected  against  foreign  and  domertic  violence  agreed  to. 

''*'":•  cl'stUuLf of  the  Executive"  reconsidered-Agreed  that  he  be 
elected  by  elector»-So  that  the  electors  be  choaen  by  State 
legislatures— So  that  he  be  not  ineligible  a  second  time— So  that 
his  term  continue  for  six  year.. 

'''"pro^nlf  oi  electors  in  the  different' State,  for  l^^^\^^. 
Executive  adopted-Likewise  that  he  »* .  •"P^^^/^Jf-;*',,™* 
he  receive  a  fixed  compensation  to  be  paid  out  of  the  National 
Treasurv- Also  that  elector,  should  not  be  members  of  the 
Legislature  or  officers  of  the  United  SUtes,  and  that  elector, 
themselves  be  not  eligible  for  the  Presidency. 

^"""mit  the'euittorf.  be  paid  -ut  of  the  National  Treasury  a^eed  to- 
But  not  that  the  iudiciary  be  "associated  with  the  Executive  in 
the  revisit.narr  r  "—That  the  Executive  have  a  veto  on  the 

ElevTntr"e^iut..        jat   judges   be   appointed   by    the   Senate, 
adopted 

^"^venWh"  resolution,  that  provision  be  made  for  future  amend- 
ments of  the  Constitution,  agreed  to. 
Eishteen'h  resolution,  requiring  oaths  of  fidelity  to  the  Constitution 
from  State  officers,  amended  to  require  such  oath,  also  from 
national  officers,  and  in  this  form  agreed  to. 
Nineteenth  resolution  discussed— That  the  Constitution  be  ratified 
by  the  State  lecisIatureB  not  agreed  to— But  that  it  he  referred 
to  assembli""   ehosen  by  the  people  carried- That  the  repre- 


PAOl 


274 


282 


288 


294 


303 


CONTENTS 


ziii 


311 


318 


324 


337 


FAOB 

■mUtion  of  eMh  SUt*  ia  th«  Senate  eoniUt  of  thrt«  memben 

not  agrsed  to— But  that  It  conaiit  of  two  carried— 3o  alio  that 

they  vote  per  capita. 
Election  of  the  Preiident  to  be  reooMidered. 
Agreed  that  a  committee  of  fire  be  appointed  to  report  a  conititu- 

tion  conformably  to  the  reaolutloni  adopted. 
Tu€$d<iVt  July  H       ...*..•****' 
Election  of  the  Preaident  recoMidered- Agreed  that  he  be  elected 

by  the  Legitlature— Varione  lengtha  of  hie  term  of  eerrice  pro- 

Boaed— Coneideration  noetponed— Committee  of  detail  appointed 

—Committee  of  the  whole  diicharged. 

Wedneaday,  July  2S  .  ;     ,  ■       •.__.■     x  u     ' 

Election  of  the  PreaJdent  and  length  of  term  of  aervice  taken  up— 
Various  modes  propoaed,  but  not  acted  upon  favorably— That 
delegate*    might   take  ooplea   of   reaolutiona   which   had   been 
adopted  not  agreed  to. 
Thwf^dwf  July  29 

Election  and  term  of  lenriee  of  the  Execntire— Agreed  that  he  be 
elected  by  the  National   Legialature  for  seven   years,  and   be 
Ineligible  for  a  second  term— The  whole  clause  then  agreed  to 
aa  amended— Agreed  that  members  of  the  Legislature  have  the 
qualifications  of  property  and  citiienship— That  persons  "  having 
unsettled  account!  with  the  United  SUtea  "  be  disqualified  from 
being  member*  of  the  Legislature  not  adt^tod. 
JfoiMfay,  August  $......*■-'** 

Text  of  the  report  of  the  committee  of  detail— Draft  of  a  Cob- 
■titution. 

Tue$day,  Augutt  7 :,     \    .^     '       '  ui  "       •     **' 

Report  of  committee  of  deteU  considered— The  preamble  and 
articles  first  and  second  agreed  to— Article  third— Agreed  to  con- 
fine the  negative  of  each  branch  to  legislative  acts— And  to 
strike  out  "  shall  in  all  cases  have  a  negative  on  the  other  " — 
Agreed  that  a  different  day  for  meeting  of  the  Legislature  may 
be  enacted  by  law— That  the  Legislature  meet4n  December— That 
it  meet  once,  at  least,  each  yeai^And  article  third  adopted  aa 
amended.  _         .  .     .  ^ 

Article  fourth,  section  on»— Not  agreed  that  sufTrage  be  confined  to 
freeholders. 

Wednetday,  Augu$t  8 '  j  j "  iv  1 

Article  fourth,  section  one,  adopted— Section  two  amended  that 
citizenship  of  seven  years  be  required- Also  "  inhabitant  sub- 
stituted for  "  resident  "—Section  three  adopted— Section  lour 
amended  that  representation  be  regulated  according  to  the  rule 
hereafter  to  be  provided  for  direction  taxation — Amendment  to 
insert  "  free  "  before  "  inhabitants  "  not  agreed  to — Section  five, 
relating  to  origin  of  appropriation  bills,  stricken  out. 

Thursday,  Augutt  9 •       •       ■.       ' .     \,  ^■ 

Sections  six  and  seven,  relating  to  power  of  impeachment  and  to 

filling  of  vacancies  in  the  House,  agreed  to. 
Article  fifth,  section  one,  considered — Amendment,  that  the  power 
of  State  executives  to  fill  vacancies  in  the  Senate  be  stricken 
out,  not  agreed  to— That  such  vacancies  be  filled  by  the  leps- 
latures  or  executives  of  the  respective  States  agreed  to— The 
whole  section  adopted— Section  two  adopted  with  alight  change 
of  phraseology— Various  terms  of  length  of  residence  required 
from  Senators  proposed  and  disagreed  to — ^Nine  years  adopted — 
Inhabitancy  required  instead  of  residence  as  a  qualification — 
Section  four  agreed  to. 
Article  sixth— Motion  to  take  from  the  Legislature  the  power  to 
regulate  election  of  its  members  disagreed  to— Section  one 
adopted. 


385 


363 


ZIV 


CONTENTS 


Priday,  Augiut  10     ...       . 

idoSlj^wiHT"  .n J  .action  two  not  .doptid JSSfton  thSS 
■dopted  with  an  unendment  •utborUiiig  th»  Houiet  to  comncl 
S^t^^°?,°'  "^*  fmberK-gectioBTiour  and  five  iSo^^ 
S«t  on  lU  amended  to  require  the  concurrence  of  two-thfrde  to 
rSl'in"*""*^''  ■"''  thu.  adopted-Motion  to  rtrilte  out  th2 
Io«™.  ♦„"*?'  ?"!  r'^u^f"''"'  ■'••?*°«  •»"•  publication  of  the 
one^Ll^r  Ji' «i  7  ''""""*  T*^  to-A«endm.nti  to  allow 
enter  their  diaaent  not  carried.  "-"-mw"  w 

/Saturday,  ^u^tMt  11 

Article  .iith— Section  leven  adopted-Section  eight  adopted  after 

Mo,^'J:'I:fu,Tl?''  "!'"'*  *"  .*'"'  '''"^  "•«'  "^  rtruct  out*"" 

*  m.«iJ°"'^^~*t"''°  ^r".  recoMidered-Amendmenta  requiring 
aerely  "c.tlzen.h.p  and  inhabitan.^,"  requiring  a  reaid^ce  o1 

^,«n/'*/.*'  '^"'''ff  •  'MWence  o/  fouryea"?  requirii»  th^t 

2^1,?  inH  °'  ".  .     •*  "^^  ""^  "PP'y  *°  /oreiglierVnowIn  the 
aJ^^  7*;^   ^si^a"''*?,?  residence  of  five  year,  not  agreed  to. 

-!1   "th-Swrtlon  three  confirmed  after  attempt  to  reduce  the 

necessary  residence  from  nine  years  to  seven. 
Article  fourth— Section  five,  relating  to  appropriations   reconsid- 

'^^:;ni  s-SStua**  °'"^'  -"*  "'*  '»reed"^;.rd°Vi?e 
Ttutday,  Augutt  Ik    ...       . 

^^'IV^^^^^V""  »"'«n<taents  to  section  nine.' to  allow  members 
?^!  J^*  ''*"r'  *°  ?'="J'*  """^  •"»»  *°  '"''«*«  their  K>ats,  lost- 
The    ection  postponed— Section  ten  amended  that  lesislators  be 

fjirt^f  JV*^*  ^'""Z"  '^J'*'"'y  ""l  thattteir'^^es  te 
ascertained  by  law,  and  so  adopted.  •"«!<:•  ue 

Wednesdoy,  Aug<Mt  15     . 

■^'i^lS^^^'T^"'*"  ?'*'*"  adoptk-Section  twelve  poitponed- 
Amendments  to  section  thirteen,  that  the  SuDremerSnrT  ha 
joined  with  the  President  in  the  mlsion.?^  ^werTnd  tha^thl 
fourthrlf'T.f  l''°  on  "resolutions,"  rej7ctS? Jfint  that  th,!^! 
fourths  of  each  House  be  requirrd  to  overrule  the  Preilde™s 

Thunday,  Augutt  16  . 

Amendment  subjecting  resolutions  to  the  President's  veti  adonted 
and  made  section  fourteen  of  article  siith  Moptea 

Vini^nfT^t-  ""ting  to  the  power  of  Congress,  considered-Sec- 
\TJt  *'''*"  "P-Cl'U'f  relative  to  re|ulation  of  commer^ 
to  CO  ning  money,  to  regulation  of  value  of  foreign  cote   and  to 

Sfn^ff  c?:?!t's^c^»"rt.^"'-°'""'"  --'«^-f°-  to  emit 

Friday,  August  17 

Amendment  that  ,  reamrers  be  apminted  by  "joint"  billot— All 

clanees  to  and  inclusive  of  "toTclare  war  "  adopted  after  sev 

eral  slight  changes  of  phraseology.  ""opiea  atter  siv- 

Saturday,  August  18  .  . 

Amendments  to  give  Legislature  certain  other   specified  iwwers 

mf«if'^J°^'r?'""'  °'  •''t""  °*  eleven-AppoiZent  of^rm! 
mittee  to  consider  assumption  of  State  debti-"To  raise  and 

""XmL"";^'*"  •'»°P«f<^-So  "to  provide  and  m.intMn  a  m^ " 
-Motion  to  restrict  the  size  of  the  army  voted  down.  ^ 

Uonday,  August  20    ...        , 

^'^ti/^^P"""'""'  '^'""'''^  *"  P"""'  °'  *''«  Legislature  and' mis- 
cellaneous provisions  referred  to  committee  of  detail— Power  to 


S7S 


880 


884 


898 


404 


408 


41S 


420 


427 


CONTENTS 


XT 


«Mt  niaptiwry  Uws  dlMsrwd  to-Ocsenl  cUom  that  ConsreM 
have  ^WM  to  enact  lawa  neecMary  to  enfore*  enumerated  p^weri 
carried— Article  ierenth,  leetion  two,  concerning  treaMn  and  iU 
puniahment.  diacuM^l  chanted,  and  adoptwl^Seotton  thr^ 
Amendment  that  the  first  cenmia  be  taken  within  three  yeara 
agreed  to.  ' 

TlUtday,  Auqutt  il 

Report  of  the  coounittee  of  eleven  'iq>on  State  debta  and  orBanlai. 
".S^*f  •  °'*5?  »«''»«•  received-Section  three,  article  eirMth, 
agreed  to— Section  twelve  of  article  sixth,  relative  to  represenU- 
tion  and  taxation,  again  ooniidered— Likewise  article  seventh, 
section  four,  relating  to  exports— Exports  not  to  be  taxed. 
—•—  AttftMt  ti 

ortatlon  of  slaves 


Article  seventh,  section  four— Prohibition  of  impor        „  . 

discussed  and  referred— Motions  that  bills  of  atUinder  and  ex 


PAa 


435 


44S 


451 


post  facto  laws  be  prohibited,  and  that  the  Legialature  discharoe 

rwJ.'"'  **/''*••  f^'.°'  "*•  U°**«*  SUtss,  were  ^^  to.  ^ 

Article  seventh— Organliatlon.  etc.,  of  the  militU  discussed  and  the 

Fr„1?S'?S.fi°'*f!i.'"  "P»rt«»-Agreed  that  no  offlcer  of  the 

United  States  receive  presents,  tiOes.  etc.,   from  any  foreign 

Article  elghth-Supremary  of  the  Constitution,  treaties,  and  na- 

onTl  Ts.!!l'*wT^"°"'  *e  «*'•  "»  LegliUture  a'  negative 
on  acts  of  State  leglsUtnres  not  committed  and  withdrawn 

Article  ninth,  section  one.  discussed  and  referred. 
Ffiday,  Auguit  H     .       .       .       .  .,« 

Further  report  from  the  grand  committee  up^  importation  of 
slaves,  canitation  tax,  and  navigation  act.  l~™".wn  oi 

Article  ninth— Sections  two  and  three  stricken  out. 

Article  tenth,  section  one— Amendments  that  President  be  elected 

.1^1     Si*  f  *  *•■?  Wi«l«tnre  and  a  majority  of  those  present 
agreed  t<>-That  each  State  have  one  vote  not  4rrled-Nor  that 

lo«S!!*s2lf?™  '^  i?"  ^"^."'^  "'  *•»•  Senate  have  the  casting 
vot«>-8ection   two  discussed— That   the   President   should   not 
appoint  to  offlces  otherwise  provided  for  agreed  to— But  not  that 
0-.  -,       5  leglsUtures  and  executives  be  authorised  to  appoint. 

Article  seventh— Wording  of  section  one  changed— Agreed  that  Im- 
portation  of  slaves  be  prohibited  after  180*-Andthat  a  tax  of 
f-  ^^  *?"  ton  dollars  mav  be  levied  upon  each  slave  so 
imported— Agreed  that  section  Ave  stand  as  in  the  report  of  the 
committee  of  detail. 

Article  tenth,  section  two,  changed  in  phraseology— Amendment 
that  President  may  grant  reprieves  "  until  the  ensuing  session  of 
the  Senate"  not  agreed  to-Nor  that  be  grant  pardons  "with 
consent  of  the  Senate." 
Monday,  Augutt  27 ^.j 

Article  tenth,  section  two— Agreed  that  President's  command'  over 
Mate  militia  be  confined  to  the  time  of  their  service  under  the 
Federal  Government— Form  of  oath  required  from  President 
agreed  to. 

Article  eleventh — Section  one  amended,  giving  judicial  power  "as 
well  in  law  as  equity,"  and  so  adopted— Section  two  adopted— 
DiBCTisgion  of  section  three  relative  to  judicial  power,  etc  — 
Amendments  relative  to  increase  of  silaries  of  jui'ges  and  to  their 
removal  on  application  by  legislature  not  agreed  to— Provision  as 
to  trial  by  Impeachment  postponed— Judicial  power  extended  to 
cases  under  the  Constitution  or  laws  of  Congress,  to  cases 
m  which  the  United  States  are  a  party,  to  grants  of  land  by 


XTi 


CONTENTS 


diffwetit  SUtM,  Md  to  apiHtlUte  jurltdiction  m  to  Uw  »nd 

fact. 
'''"1';?icle"el"vInfh-8«tion  (our  .mend«l  .nd  .«tioB.- four  .nd  flv. 

ArttulteUth  .mended,  prohibiting  emlwlon  of  bllU  olcTtiltjni 
mikinB  anything  but  ^Id  and  .liver  .-oin  legal  Under  and  m 
paweS^SUt*.  prohibited  from  pawing  bilU  of  attamder  and 

ArUde*tMrre^nt7amended,  that  Stat*,  .hall  not  lay  dutle.  on 
l5ort»  or  export,  but  for  the  u«,  of  the  Unlt«l  Stat...  and  in 

ArlklV''f'^»""S    relating    to    equal     prWileg..    of    citl«n^ 

Artlclelfteenth  amended  by  rabrtltuting  "  other  crim.  "  for  "  high 
ml.demeanor,"  and  to  paued. 

^'"Tn'cf;  ^ixf"nth!%elatlng  to'  faith   to   -oe'  given   to  .x.mpUftrf 

reeord.  and  official  act.,  etc..  referred. 
Article  .eventh,  action  .ix.  requiring  majority  of  two-third,  ol 

each  House  to  pas.  a  navigation  act.  rtruck  out.  .  ,^,.  . 

Article   fifteenth  extended   to  provide   for   .urrender  of   fugitive 

ArtrcK'ieventeenth-PTOvi.ion.  relative  to  condltloni  upon  which 
new  StatMi  may  be  admitted  .tricken  out. 

'^^Irtidol^rnteemh.  relative  to  the  adml«ion  of  new  State,,  further 
considered-Amendment,  that  no  new  Bute  .hall  b«  '°rmed 
within  one  of  the  pre^nt  State,  without  conwnt  of  legiilatiue 
of  .uch  State,  nor  by  a  union  of  two  or  more  SUte.  or  part, 
thereof  without  their  conwnt.  that  the  Legi.lature  .hall  have 
power  to  di.poi»  of  the  property,  etc.,  of  the  Un'te^.  «*•*••.  »»* 
that  nothing  in  thi.  Conetitution  .hall  prejudice  the  claim,  of 
the  I'nited  States  or  of  the  State,  to  land,  ceded  by  treaty  of 

Artide*e*gMeenth  amended,  giving  alw  State  executive,  the  right 
to  apply   for  protection  to  the  National   OoTemment   again.t 
domeitic  violence,  and  in  thi.  form  pawed. 
Article  nineteenth  adopted.  ,  . ,  „,  .  .    _,»u  .-..j 

Article  twentieth,  requiring  oath  of  fidelity,  agreed  to  with  amend- 
ment prohibiting  religiou.  tett.,  etc. 

'^Article'twenty-fir.t  con.idered' and  agreed  to.  that  Aine 'Stot'e.  be 
necewarv  to  organize  this  Constitution. 

Article  twonty-second- Amendment  that  the  approbation  of  the 
Continental  Congress  be  not  necessary  to  establ  .h  the  Constuu- 
tion  agreed  to— That  conventions  he  •  speedily  called  to  ratify 
not  agreed  to— The  article  adopted  as  amended. 

Article  twenty-third  adopted  after  the  words  "  choose  the  President 
of  the  United  State,  and  "  were  stricken  out. 

Article  seventh,  section  four,  amended  that  no  commercial  regula- 
tion give  preference  to  the  porta  of  any  State,  that  no  vessel 
bound  to  or  from  a  State  enter  or  pay  duties  in  another,  and 
that  all  duties,  imposts,  and  excise,  be  uniform  throughout  the 
Vnitid  States.  .  ,        .  i. 

Reference  of  undetermined  section,  to  a  committee  of  one  from  each 
State. 
Baturdav.  Septemhcr  1 •       "      ,'       '.»..'       '< 

Partial  report  of  committee  of  yesterday— Report  of  committee  ot 
August  29,  relative  to  faith  and  credit  to  be  given  to  acts,  etc., 
of  State*. 


PAOC 


47S 


481 


489 


498 


602 


CONTENTS 


ZTU 


Mtmdu^,  BtfitmhtT  S ^3 

Anendaciit  agrcml  to  th«t  LegiaUturt  bulj  preaeribt  tit*  nutniur 
of  ■uthenticatinf  records,  etc.— That  Congresi  hav*  power  to 
Mtabliah  unUorm  laws  on  the  subjset  o<  bankruptclss  agrssd 

Article  sixth — Ineligibility  of  legislators  to  oOce  conflned  to  such 
oflkes  as  were  created  or  the  emoiumenta  whereof  were  increased 
during  their  term  of  offlcv,  and  ao  agreed  to— Likewise  that  no 
officer  of  the  United  SUtes  hold  a  scat  in  the  Legialature. 
TuMday,  September  4 soe 

That  Congress  lay  and  collect  Uxes  to  provide  for  the  common 
d(  fens*,  etc.,  and  regulate  trade  with  Indian  tribes  agreed  to, 
Wtdneaday,  September  S .819 

Agreed  that  Congress  have  power  to  declare  war  and  grant  letters 
of  marque  and  reprisal ;  that  no  appropriation  for  the  army  be 
for  longer  than  two  years;  that  Congress  have  exclusive  legisla- 
tion over  the  district  In  which  the  seat  of  government  may  be 
located,  and  likewise  over  all  places  purchased,  etc.,  for  forta, 
arsenals,  etc. ;  to  enact  lawa  providing  for  patent  rights  and  copy- 
rights—Provision relative  to  meeting  expenditures  of  the  con- 
vention adopted— Election  of  the  Presiuent  resumed— Amend- 
ments offered,  but  only  that  requiring  a  "  majority  of  the  whole 
number  of  electors  appointed  "  to  elect,  agreed  to. 
Thunday,  September  6 gjg 

Election  of  President  considered— No  one  holding  an  office  under  the 
United  SUtes  shall  be  an  elector,  agreed  to— President's  term 
of  office  to  be  four  years,  agreed  to— Minor  amendments  in 
phraseology  adopted— Others  not  agreed  to— Agreed  that  election 
be  on  the  same  day  throughout  the  United  SUtes— Likewise  that 
In  the  event  of  no  election  the  Senate  elect  the  President,  two- 
thirds  of  the  Senators,  at  least,  to  be  present— Likewise  that  not 
the  Senate  but  the  House  elect  the  President,  two-thirds  of  the 
SUtes  to  be  present. 
Friday,  September  7 g25 

Agreed  that  Legislature  have  power  to  determine  the  succession  to 
the  Presidency,  etc.— So  that  in  the  House  a  concurrence  of  a 
majority  of  all  the  SUtes  be  necessary  to  a  choice— So  that  the 
President  be  a  native,  a  resident  for  fourteen  years,  and  thirtv- 
five  years  of  age — So  that  the  Vice-President  be  President  of  tie 
Senate— Paragraph  fifth  of  report  of  September  4  adooted— 
Paragraph  seventh  considered — House  excluded  from  treaty- 
making  power- Agreed  that  the  President,  "by  and  with  the 
advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,"  make  treaties,  appoint  am- 
bassadors, etc.,  and  "  all  other  officers,"  etc.— That  President  have 
the  power  to  fill  vacancies  during  the  recess  of  the  Senate — ^That 
two-thirds  of  the  Senate  concur  in  making  treaties,  "except 
treaties  of  peace"— But  amendments,  that  the  concurrence  of 
the  President  be  not  required  in  treaties  and  that  an  executive 
council  be  esUblished  (or  the  President,  not  carried. 

Baturday.  September  8 532 

Reconsideration  of  provisions  relative  to  treaties — Treaties  of  peace 
placed  upon  same  footing  as  others — Carried  that  two-thirds  of 
"  all "  Senators  be  not  required— That  two-thirds  of  the  Senate 
be  a  quorum  not  carried— Agreed  that  the  Senate  be  a  court  of 
impeachment  of  the  President  for  treason,  bribery,  and  other 
high  crimes  and  misdemeanors — Likewise  that  "other  civil  of- 
ficers "  of  the  United  States  be  subject  to  impeachment— Also 
that  appropriation  bills  should  originate  in  the  House,  but  that 
the  Senate  may  propose  amendments,  etc.,  as  in  other  bills — Also 
that  every  Senator  be  on  oath  when  trying  impeachment — 80  that 
President  have  the  power  to  convme  Congress  or  eithet  Houw. 


xriii 


CONTENTS 


•te. — Motion  to  recontklcr  tkt  ratio  of  reprtMBt«tion  sot  CMTt^-d 
— ConinittM  on  ityU  and  revision  appointed. 
JloMlay,  September  10 ftU 

ABendment  to  article  nineteenth,  that  Li>gitlature  be  empowered  to 
propoee  amenduenta  which  shall  be  binding  when  agreed  to  by 
three-fourthi  of  the  State*. 

Articles  twenty-first  and  twenty-second  adopted— Assent  of  the  Con- 
tinental Congress  to  Constitution  not  required — That  an  address 
to  ths  people  acconpany  the  plan  referred. 

Tuewlay,  September  11 MS 

Wedneaday,  Bepttmber  It MS 

Text  of  the  Constitution  as  reported  by  the  commitee  on  style. 

Amendment  to  section  sevei,  article  first,  that  a  two-thlrda  vote  b* 
required  to  overrule  the  President's  veto,  instead  of  three-fourths, 
carried — That  a  bill  of  rights  b*  annexed  to  the  Constitution  not 
carried, 
rkttredoy,  September  IS 658 

Conunitte*  appointed  to  draft  articles  of  association  to  encourage 
economy,  fnigaltty,  and  American  manufactures — Amendment  to 
permit  States  to  levv  certain  duties  for  the  sole  purpose  of  de- 
fraying charges  of  inspecting,  storing,  etc.,  such  power  to  be 
subject  to  Congressional  control  and  revision,  carried — Report 
from  the  committee  on  style  regarding  the  manner  of  proceaur* 
of  ratification  of  the  Constitution. 
JPr<day,  Bepttmbtr  H MO 

Changes  of  phraseology — Amendments  to  change  the  present  pro- 
portion of  Representatives,  to  suspend  impeached  offlcers  until 
they  have  bera  tried,  to  compel  the  Bouse  to  publish  all  its 
proceedings,  to  give  Congress  power  to  cut  canals  and  grant 
chartera  of  incorporation  in  certain  cases,  to  establish  a  uni- 
venity,  and  to  secure  the  liberty  of  the  press,  were  not  carried — 
Otherwise  with  amendments  that  the  treasurer  be  appointed  as 
are  other  officers  and  that  Congress  publish  from  tune  to  time 
accounts  of  the  public  expeuditures. 
Bvturday,  Bepiemher  15 SAT 

Amendments  to  change  the  representation  of  the  State*  not  agreed 
to— To  deprive  Congress  of  the  control  over  State  laws  imposing 
duties  in  certain  cases,  not  agreed  to— That  the  President  receive 
no  emolument  besides  his  salary  carried — To  deprive  the  Presi- 
dent of  the  pardoning  power  in  cases  of  treason  not  carried — That 
appointment*  of  inferior  officera  may  be  vested  by  law  in  the 
Presitjoi.t  alone,  or,  etc.,  agreed  to— But  not  that  trial  by  Jury  be 
preserved  in  all  civil  cases — Carried  that  on  application  of  two- 
thirds  of  the  States  Congress  call  a  convention  to  amend  the 
Constitution — Likewise  tut  no  State  be  deprived  of  its  equal 
representation  in  the  Senate  without  its  consent — But  not  that 
a  two-thirds  vote  be  required  to  pass  a  navigation  law  before  1808 
— Nor  that  amendments  be  submitted  to  a  new  Federal  conven- 
tion— Constitution  as  amended  agreed  to  and  ordered  to  be 
engrossed. 
Monday,  Septemher  11 677 

Amendment  that  "  the  number  of  Representatives  shall  not  exceed 
one  for  every  30,000  inhabitants"  carried. 

Agreed  that  the  Constitution  be  signed  as  "  done  by  the  unanimous 
consent  of  the  States  present." 

AgTped  that  the  joumalB  and  papers  of  the  convention  be  deposited 
with  its  President,  subject  to  the  order  of  the  Congress  if  the 
guvernment  Ije  ever  formed. 

Constitution  signed  and  convention  adjourned. 


CONTENTS 


six 


Am.tDIX   TO   DUATU! 

I.  No.  1.   K»tr«ct  of  I,tt»r  from  0«ii«r*l  Kmn  to  Ommtl  WMhiat- 
ton,  Ortobvr  23,   I7M       .        .  ^ 

^'*'"  *■    ^Tuntn    m«    ''""  ''°''"  *'•'  *°  °*"*'''  W«.hintton'. 

No.  3.    Extr«ct  of' lettpr  from  OeBeral  Wathlngton  to  John  J«». 

It     XT      .     _*"P:w  1.  i7«6 ' 

II.   No.  1.   Extract  of  l.tter  from  J.me.  Madiion  to  TlKmi«tJ.ff.r«m, 
March  19,  1787  .... 
No.  2.  Extract  of  I«tt«r  from  Junca  Madiaon  to  Edmimd  iuiMlolph, 

April  H»  1787       "... 
No.  8.   UtUrhom  Jamea  Uadiaon  to  (ho^  WaahingtoB,  April 

HI.   LetUr   from    Merchanta,   Tradeamen,   etc.,   of   Proridnie,,    Rliode 
U    IW  Chairman  of  the  Qcnenl  Conraation,  May 

IV.   The  PiBckniy  Plan  preacnted  to  the  CraTw^tUm'  at  ita  Btmkm  of 
Ma  J  20,  1787 : 
No.  I.   Outline  of  the  plan 
No.  2.   Lettera   from   Charlea  Plnckney  to  John  Q^iinc;  Adama, 

No.  3.   Tert^of  the^^»neged  plu  aubmitted  by  Plnckney"  to  John 

No.  4.   Madiaon-a  note  on  ihe  Plnckney  plan  apparently  written  to 
accompany  hia  Debatea 

VI    d"°i"i°!I!*  ''""  "'.■  """titution  for  the  United  Statea  ' 
ViT    S-'S^P    !  P~Po»«J^<»»npromlae  to  the  amall  Stotea,  July  10.  1787 
VII.   Subaequent  note,  and  remarka  by  Madlaon  to  hia  ap;ech  of  Au«Mt 
M     t     „'•''"'•  on  the  queatior  of  auffrage: 

aS    tt'^ih^  °*  ■^'"•*  ^'^'•»  •■  Conwntioa  of  1787. 

S»'  I  ^  ^,  'P^h  of  Jamea  Ma'diaon  on'the  7th  day  of  Anguat 
No.  8.   General  remarka  on  the  Convection  .       ,  •""b™i 


SMS 
S)t« 
S87 

sm 

S90 
S02 


S«6 

S08 

000 

009 
«08 
«18 


810 
010 


PART  III. 
THE  CONSTITUTION.  ITS  RATIFICATION  AND  AMENDIIKNTS. 

COWBTITUTIOlf  OF  THK  UlHTH)  StaRB  „, 

st^Jn  P««n«i«T  OF  Conama.  T«4ir.MiTnNo  ^^. 

"''"'''^Z.'T^.ZJ^^!^^'  ""• --"™« -CO.-  2 

Cbcii1.«    LBTTK.   OF   THE    8.CMTABT    OF   COWOIW.    BATED    SEPT^mo;    28 

;^!I;J^'"*'""''°  oopT  «r  THE  Cowarmmoif  to  the  mvnul 

(KIvkBNOBs  ....  MAt% 

Ratification  of  the  CowsTmmow  btthe  aEv^auL  States,"  abkaitoed  ni 

the    OBDEB    of    THEIH    BATIFICATION:      .  —MUM.  in 

SUte  of  Delaware "Ji 

State  of  PennnWania 25 

state  of  New  Jeraey J™ 

State  of  GeorgU         ...                      2? 

State  of  Conneeticnt  ....               2o 

SUte  of  Maaaachuietta mr 

State  of  Maryland                                                  21 

SUte  of  South  Carolina    •..'!!!!!       |       '       *  2J 


CONTENTS 


of  Ntw  Hmpdiln «M 

8Uto  oi  Virgini* HA* 

HUU  o(  Ntw  York MS 

MUto  of  North  Carolina 074 

Bute  of  Rkotlo  IiUad WW 

RMoLtiTioN  or  CoMQuu*  BATB  Jdit  2,  ITM,  nnmimira  B*nnoi4Tioi» 

or  TKB  CoNannrnoN  to  a  Comirrm U7 

Rholutioh  or  TM8  CoNOHMa,  or  SBfTKMaaa  IS,  1788,  nxxiia  bati  roa 
Butonmi  or  a  PiaaiDaiiT.  amb  tbb  oaoAiinATioii  or  tbi  aofBBM- 

MBNT  VNBaa  TIB  CONBTrrVTIOIf,  IM  TBB  CrfT  OT  NBW  YoBK      .         .  eM 

Raaouinoii  or  tib  naar  CoRaaaaa  aDaiurniia  twblvb  AMBKBMBirrs  to 

TBB  CoHarmrnoH ««» 

Fnurr  TBn  AKBNDMUiTa  to  t«b  Coitarmmoif mi 

HuaaaquBirr  AMaiiDMBRTa  to  tsb  Coifarrrurioii *ii)4 

IRBBI  10  THB  DBATBB  III  TU  FBaBBAL  COBTBmiOII  Off  1787  '      .  .  tfUO 


ILLUSTRATIONS 


PAaB 

Virak  pai*  of  Mr.  Madlion'i  auniucript — faetiaile 17 

flaeaioila  raprodretioB  of  Mr.  Ifadiion't  "NotM"  relatiaf  to  eooreioa  of 

Statw 37 

at  Mr.  .MadiwD't  maanaeript— faeahailo     ....  58S 


'  Tho  Index  is  only  to  MadliOB't  Note*  of  Debate*  and  the  Appendix  thereto. 
The  Table  of  Content*  ii  IwlieTed  to  be  lufficient  for  Part  I,  Antecedent*  of  tha 
Federal  ConTention  of  1787,  and  Part  TIT,  The  Constitution,  iU  RatlfleatioB  and 
bU. 


INTRODUCTORT  NOTl 
I-  Ma  IfAonoif't  Bmxmd 

United  8Ut«*-th«t  in  Volume  III  of  the  Docununtam  HiHnr^Z* 
the  ConsMution,  pnbUdied  in  1900  by  the  S^IS^ntL^^i  k 

?„  10  J  J^"'*"^'//  •'•"^  ^-rf"*"!.  «iit«l  by  Mr.  Hunt.  publirtSd 
Iw  fl«  ^^"°^  "P*"**''  *»  »'«»  volume,  in  VmioT^ 
"jm  .  Son.) ,  „d  that  publirt«l  by  th.  Y.I.  UniTmirP««t 
1911   Mm  p.rr.nd.  editor,  «.  the  chief  part  of  VolumlTl  wdTl  5 

M.dT^'  iL  !kT  '''"'^.■"  """""^  •"""•»•  print,  of  S; 
naauon  record,  while  none  i«  nor  eu>  be  DerfaetlT  ILn,^*^     t 

the  Z>oc«menJ.rv  HUtory  and  Profe-SJ  F^r^dtS^rrHLnS 
«  made  to  indicate  in  the  printe.'  the  alteratiJJwL'iS 

the  uae  of  the  caret,  interlineation,  and  the  woH.  '^rtricte,  o„T*  to 

l^^    ir  ."**•  '*'  •*'  "  •°»^*'*  '"^ket,  "  to  indicate^Sditi«i 

notes  to  ahow  what  word,  were  rtrack  out  by  Madimn.  The  in^vit-hh^ 
re^lt  .  that  we  have  text,  which  are  coiSTi  ^^SSt 

Buodtance,  and  the  raipicion.  invertigator  who  thinln  th.f  i*.^- 
nay  have  made  alteratiomi  in  hi.  oririnS  rlo^ -,  «  ♦  °° 

Which apZ^^ri/^^^m:  ""'""^"."^  '*'  '''*~^  f^'^*-*^ 

more  frequ^Z^^l!  ^Z  nffl     iT ^  "  "^^'^  *°  »-»:  b-t  he  noted 
^uenuy  error,  m  the  official  JMimofitwOf.   Yatea'.  record  he 

ni 


PROVINCIAL  LIBRARY. 
VICTORIA.  B  C 


xxii  INTRODUCTORY  NOTE 

regarded  as  having  little  value.    Nevertheless,  he  derived  from  it  a 
few  lesser  motions  which  had  escaped  him. 

Jladisoii  began  the  revision  of  his  Notes  after  he  retired  from  the 
Presidency  in  1817  and  had  the  manuscript  copied  under  his  own  eye 
by  his  amanuensis,  John  C.  Payne,  Jlrs.  Madison's  brother.  On  De- 
cember 27,  1821,  he  wrote  to  John  G.  Jackson  that  he  had  set  about 
arranging  his  papers  "  in  earnest."  On  February  2,  1827,  he  wrote 
to  Samuel  Harrison  Smith,  who  urged  him  to  publish  his  record,  that 
the  world  would  not  have  long  to  wait  for  it.  It  was  to  be  posthumous, 
he  said,  and  Rufus  King,  William  Few  and  himself  were  the  only 
signers  of  the  Constitution  then  surviving;  "  and  of  the  lamps  still 
burning,  none  can  now  be  far  from  the  socket,"  he  added.  King  died  a 
few  months  after  this  letter  was  written  and  Few  in  the  following 
year.  It  is  probable  that  the  transcript  was  completed  when  Madison 
wrote,  and  the  fact  that  it  was  being  made  caused  a  rumor  to  get 
abroad  that  he  was  writing  a  history  of  some  sort,  for  he  was  obliged  to 
deny  to  several  correspondents  that  he  had  such  a  project. 

At  the  end  of  the  original  manuscript  of  the  debates  in  the  Con- 
vention Madison  wrote:  "  The  few  alterations  and  corrections  made 
in  these  debates  which  are  not  in  my  handwriting,  were  dictated  by 
me  and  made  in  my  presence  by  John  C.  Payne."  The  entries  made 
in  Pa5me's  hand  are  indeed  few,  and  a  careful  examination  fails  to 
identify  positively  more  than  half-a-dozen,  but  when  Payne  wrote  in 
small  characters  his  writing  resembled  Madison's,  and  there  were 
doubtless  a  few  alterations  made  by  him  which  can  not  be  identified. 
In  Madison's  will  made  in  1835  he  says: 

In  consideration  of  the  particular  and  valuable  aids  received 
from  my  brother  in  law,  John  C.  Payne  and  the  affection  which 
I  bear  him,  I  devise  to  him  and  his  heirs  two  hundred  and  forty 
acres  of  land  on  which  he  lives. 

The  "  particular  and  valuable  aids,"  doubtlesr,  were  his  services  in 
revising  the  record  of  the  debates  and  transcribing  it  for  publication. 
Madison  died  on  June  28,  1836.  In  replying  to  the  letter  of 
condolence  which  the  President.  Andrew  Jackson,  sent  to  her,  Mrs. 
Madison  wrote  (August  20,  1836) : 

The  best  return  I  can  make  for  the  sympathy  of  my  coun- 
tiy  is,  to  fulfil  the  sacred  trust  his  confidence  reposed  in  me — 
that  of  placing  before  it  and  the  world  what  bis  pen  prepared 
for  their  use — a  legacy,  the  importance  of  which  is  deeply  im- 
pressed on  my  mind.' 


'  Executive  Documents,  No.  8,  24th  Congress,  2(i  Sess.,  Vol.  I. 


MB,  MADISON'S  RECORD 


zziii 


On  November  15,  1836,  she  offered  this  legacy  to  the  Qovernment, 
and  by  act  of  March  3,  1837,  the  GoTemment  bouitht  it  for  thirty 
thousand  dollars.  It  was  delivered  to  the  Secreta  of  State,  John 
Por^th,  by  Mrs.  Madison  April  1,  1837,  being  described  by  her  as: 
"  the  manuscript  copy  of  the  Debates  in  the  Convention  of  1787  and 
of  the  Debates  &c  in  the  Congress  of  the  Confederation."  In  a  letter 
of  November  15, 1836,  to  President  Jackson,  she  stoted  Mr.  Madison's 
intention  and  gave  a  farther  description  of  the  documents,  saying: 

It  was  also  intended  to  publish,  with  these  debates,  those  taken 
by  him  in  the  Congress  of  the  confederation  in  1782,  %  and  7, 
of  which  he  was  then  a  member,  and  selections  made  by  himselfl 
and  prepared  under  his  eye,  from  his  letters  narrating  the  pro. 
ceedings  of  that  body  during  the  periods  of  his  service  in  it,  pre- 
fixing the  debates  in  1776  on  the  declaration  of  independence  by 
Thomas  Jefferson,  so  as  to  embody  all  the  memorials  in  that  shape 
known  to  exist.^ 

These  were  "  The  Madison  Papers."   They  comprised  the  original 
manuscripts  and  transcripts  of  them.    Most  of  the  transcripts,  includ- 
ing the  transcript  of  the  debates  in  the  Constitutional  Convention, 
were  made  by  Payne,  but  a  few  of  the  letters  had  been  copied  by  Mw. 
Madison  herself.    On  July  9, 1838,  a  law  was  passed  providing  for  the 
publication  of  "  The  Madison  Papers."   Henry  D.  Gilpin,  Solicitor  of 
the  Treasury,  was  selected  as  the  editor,  and  the  joint  committee  of 
Senate  ant'  House  on  the  Library  ordered  the  withdrawal  from  the 
State  Department  of  "  one  of  the  duplicate  manuscript  copies,"  which 
Mrs.  Madison  had  deposited  there.   ' '  The  Madison  Papers, ' '  being  the 
debates  and  the  other  papers  described  by  Mrs.  Madison  in  her  letter 
to  the  President,  were  pubUshed  in  three  volumes  in  1840  and  from 
this  edition  several  prints  have  since  been  made  of  the  whole  and  of 
the  debates  separated  from  the  other  papers.    The  printer's  copy  for 
the  publication  of  1840  was  returned  to  the  joint  Library  Committee 
by  the  editor  or  printer,  and  the  committee  deposited  it  with  the 
Liorarian  of  Congress,  instead  of  returning  it  to  the  Department  of 
State  whence  it  had  rxme.    It  was  not  known  until  recently  that  this 
deposit  was  itself  "  one  of  the  dupUcate  manuscript  copies,"  which 
Mrs.  Madison  had  deposited  with  the  State  Department.    That  part 
of  it  which  concerns  us,  the  debates  in  the  Constitutional  Convention, 
was  Payne's  transcript  made  under  Madison's  supervision;  and  Madi- 
son had  himself  gone  over  the  transcript  and  had  made  a  few  addi- 
tions and  notes  in  his  own  hand.    This  printer's  copy,  therefore,  has 


'  Emeoutive  Dooumenti.  No.  8,  24Ui  CongresB,  U  SeM.,  Vol  L 


ZXIT 


INTRODUCTORY  NOTE 


more  importance  than  commonly  attaches  to  such  material.  It  must, 
in  fact,  be  considered  when  we  are  searching  for  an  absolutely  correct 
version  of  Madison's  record.  As,  however,  no  transcript  can  be  as 
correct  as  the  original  document  which  is  transcribed,  so  the  most  cor- 
rect version  of  the  Madison  record  must  be  the  original  manuscript 
in  Madison's  own  hand;  but  wherever  Madison  changed  the  transcript 
the  change  represents  his  final  judgment  and  irnst  be  noticed  in  the 
interest  of  accuracy.  Bringing  the  Payne  transcript  into  comparison 
with  the  original  record  kept  by  Madison  himself  we  have  the  last 
word  in  Madison's  history  of  the  Constitutional  Convention. 

In  so  far  as  any  long  text  can  be  accurate  the  text  which  is  printed 
here  is  believed  to  be  accurate.  Before  it  went  to  the  printer  it  was 
collated  with  the  original  manuscript  twice,  each  time  by  a  different 
person.  The  galley  proof  was  compared  word  for  word  with  the 
original  manuscript ;  the  page  proof  was  compared  word  for  word  by 
a  different  porson  with  the  original  ir.inuscript.  The  whole  of  the 
Payne  transcript  was  read  by  the  side  of  the  Madison  record  to  ascer- 
tain all  variations  and  all  corrections  or  additions  which  Madison 
made  in  the  Payne  transcript.  With  the  exception  of  differences  in 
spelling,  abbreviation  of  words  and  punctuation,  all  variations  be- 
tween the  two  texts  are  stated  in  footnotes.  The  page  proof 
was  read  against  the  text  of  the  Documentary  History  and  that  of 
Professor  Farrand  in  The  Records  of  the  Federal  Convention  of 
1787,  and  the  Madison  manuscript  was  again  consulted  whenever  a 
comparison  showed  any  difference,  however  slight,  in  the  three  texts. 

Finally,  the  foundry  proof  has,  in  the  interest  of  accuracy,  been 
read  against  Mr.  Madison's  original  manuscript. 

This  is  the  first  publication  of  the  Madison  record  so  compared. 


Washington,  D.  C, 
November  11,  1918. 


Gaiuuard  Hunt. 


II.   The  Federal  Convention  of  1787  an 
International  Conference 

The  notes  which  James  Madison  made  of  the  proceedings  of  the 
Feder^  Convention  which  met  in  Philadelphia,  May  25th  and  ad 
journed  September  17,  1787,  were  in  fact,  though  not  in  form,  tie 
notes  of  the  proceedings  of  an  international  conference,  to  use  the 
language  of  today,  or  of  a  continental  conference,  as  its  member! 
might  have  phrased  it  had  they  not  prtjferred  the  term  federal  as 
we  apparently  prefer  constitutional,  convention.  Each  preference  is. 
however,  correct  according  to  the  point  of  view  of  the  observer  It 
7Z  !°^;^^,//°°«tit»tiooal  convention  or  conference,  in  the  sense 
toa  ,t  draft'd  a  constitution  of  a  more  perfect  Union  of  and  for  the 
States  rati    mg  ,t;  ,t  was  a  federal  convention  or  conference,  in  the 

TrZ^  ;\r^°^"^  "  ^'^^'  *°'  *  '^*"*'"°  «'  '^'  States  which  the 
ow!?K  .f'*^""',*'*"*'""  '='"*'**  "  ""^  P«^««t  Union  than  that 
created  by  the  Articles  of  Confederation,  which  the  Constitution  Z 
to  replace;  it  was  a  continental  convention  or  conference  in  that  it 
was  composed  of  twelve  of  the  thirteen  States  of  the  American  conti- 
nent; It  was  an  international  convention  or  conference,  in  that  it  was 
composed  of  official  representatives  of  twelve  of  the  thirteen  "  sov- 
ereign,  free  and  independent  "  States  of  America,  acting  under  in- 
structions  and  meeting  "  for  the  sole  and  express  purpose  of  revising 
the  Articles  of  Confederation  "  in  order  to  «' render  SffedeS  Con 

trTthfunTon.'^  ''*  '"^"'"  °'  ^'^™'"*'°*  '"^  '"^^  P«-- 
The  Union  to  be  preserved  had  been  composed  but  a  short  time 
pre^ously  of  the  thirteen  American  colonies,  whose  official  repre- 
sentatives in  the  Continental  Congress,  on  July  4,  1776,  declared. 

That  these  United  Colonies  are,  and  of  Right  ouriit  to  he 
Free  and  Independent  States;  that  they  are  Ateolved^rom  an 
Allegiance  to  the  British  Crown,  and  thTt  all  poSal  conSion 

tSf^-^7^"**  ^^^  ?***^  «^  ^'^^  Britain,  is  and  ouSt  to  b^ 
totally  dissolved;  and  that  as  Free  and  Independent  States  th^ 

^tThS  cZLt''^.T'''"A  ''"'iMf  P^- '  "onTrlct  Ainan*? 

iXJde^TJt'^rC/ Jf"i?°h;"  r"  ^°*"  ''''  '^^^^  ^""^^ 

claiS  to  W '  "P'^";"*'^^^  ^"  *h«  tJongress  of  the  States  thus  de- 
clared to  be  free  and  independent  drafted,  and  on  November  15,  1777, 


xxvi  INTRODUCTORY  NOTE 

approved  Articles  of  Confederation,  which,  ratified  by  each  of  the 
thirteen  States  at  various  times,  became  effective  on  March  1,  1781, 
by  the  ratification  of  the  State  of  Maryland,  the  last  so  to  do.  The 
contracting  parties  were  thus  the  thirteen  States  declared  to  be  free 
and  independent  by  the  Declaration  of  Independence ;  and  the  origin, 
the  form  and  nature  of  the  Union,  its  name  and  the  relation  of  the 
States  to  one  another  and  to  the  Confederation  and  perpetual  Union, 
are  thus  stated  in  the  caption  and  in  the  first  three  of  the  Articles  of 
Confederation :  ^ 

Articles  of  Confederation  and  perpetual  Union  between  the 
states  of  Newhampshire,  Massachusetts-bay,  Rhodeisland  and 
Providence  Plantations,  Connecticut,  New-York,  New-Jersey, 
Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North-Carolina, 
South-Carolina  and  Georgia. 

Article  I.  The  Stile  of  th!«  confederacy  shall  be  "  The  United 
Statef  of  America." 

Article  II.  Each  state  retains  its  sovereignty,  freedom,  and 
independence,  and  every  Power,  Jurisdiction  and  right,  which  is 
not  by  this  confederation  expressily  delegated  to  the  United  States, 
in  Congress  assembled. 

Article  III.  The  said  states  hereby  severally  enter  into  a 
firm  lecgue  of  friendship  with  each  other,  for  their  common  de- 
fence, the  security  of  their  Liberties,  and  their  mutual  and  gen- 
eral welfare,  binding  themselves  to  assist  each  other,  against  all 
force  offered  to,  or  attacks  made  upon  them,  or  any  of  them,  on 
account  of  religion,  sovereignty,  trade,  or  any  other  pretence 
whatever. 

The  "  Confederation  and  perpetual  Union  between  the  States  " 
not  proving  to  be  "  adequate  to  the  exigencies  of  government  &  the 
preservation  of  the  Union,"  the  Congress,  on  February  21,  1787, 
deemed  it  "  expedient  that  on  the  second  Monday  in  May  next  a 
Convention  of  delegates  who  shall  have  been  appointed  by  the  several 
states  be  held  at  Philadelphia  for  the  sole  and  expresp  purpose  of  re- 
vising the  Articles  of  Confederation  and  reporting  to  Congress  and 
the  several  legislatures  such  alterations  and  provisions  therein  as  shall 
when  agreed  to  in  Congress  and  confirmed  by  the  states  render  the 
federal  constitution  adequate  to  the  exigenciu  of  Oovemment  &  the 
preservation  of  the  Union." 

Pursuant  to  this  resolution,  twelve  of  the  thirteen  "  sovereign, 
free  and  independent  "  States  sent  ofScial  delegates  to  the  convention 
to  be  held  in  Philadelphia  for  the  revision  of  the  Articles  of  Confed- 

'JournaU  of  the  OoittMMMtat  OongreM,  Libntrr  of  Conn-egs  editim.  Vol. 

XIX  (1912),  p.  214. 


THE  COm^NTION  AN  INTERNATIONAL  CONFERENCE  xxvii 
eration,  and  succeeded  with  much  good  will.  conce«rion,  and  com- 
pronn«e  m  drafting,  instead  of  revising  the  Articles,  a    oLututrn 

Sed  to  r  r  '°''™T;  "'  '^  "°'^  ^'''^'  Uniin.  whicHi" 
mt  ed  to  the  Congress  of  the  Confederation,  referred  by  it  to  the 

the  States,  became  effective  in  accordance  with  the  7th  Article  of  the 
Constrtution,  providing  that  "  The  Ratification  of  the  ConventioL  o5 
nine  States,  shall  be  sufficient  for  the  Establishment  of  ti  s  Co^ti 
tution  between  the  States  so  ratifying  the  Same  '• 

The  government  of  the  more  perfect  Union  was  to  go  into  onera 
tion  on  March  4. 1789.  and.  in  the  course  of  that  and  of  Z  TZZZ 

Sed  thrcon  :V?^  'T  "'  ^"^•^  ^*""-  andlf^'fiVl  Sland 

tro:titi's;rrAVetr^^^  ^* ''-  -^^^  °'  ^^  *^--  «^ 

In  the  leidfag  cajie  of  Ware  t.  Bylhn  (3  DnIIiis  199  224>   H^ 
..ded  m  1796  Mr.  J^tice  Chaae  took  oc^l  u,  id.r  tt?i,'„^ 

°h.  c  starni','  °?'""'"'°  °'  '■■^•>»»''««« »'  «i.r»s 

tfc!  Tr  f       '  '^'"•"'<»>  »P»»  «"  eolonies,  and  the  reUtioa  rf 
tt.St.te,  to  «■»  M,U,er  Wore  the  Article,  of  donfederatirb^e 

rie'^ftdST^eJ^L-htr  ""'  "^  '^'"  -^  ""^" 
and  Se  a  p/rir  XTrS^  event  the  war  changed  its  nature, 


XXVlll 


INTRODUCTORY  NOTE 


in  the  present  war  between  Great  Britain  and  Franu.    Vatt  lib 
8.  c.  18.  §  292.  to  295.  lib.  3.  c.  5.  §  70.  72.  and  73  '      ' 

From  the  4th  of  Jtdy.  1776,  the  American  Stotes  were  d» 
facto,  as  well  as  de  jure,  in  the  possession  and  actual  exercise  of 
all  the  rights  of  independent  govenunenti.    .    .    . 

The  Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States,  of  which  Mr.  Justice 
Chase  was  a  member,  apparently  attaches  great  weight  to  this  opin- 
ion in  Ware  v.  Hylton,  inasmuch  as  Mr.  Justice  Swayne,  in  deliver- 
ing the  unanimous  opinion  of  this  court  in  the  case  of  Sauenttein  v. 
Lynham  (100  U.  S.,  483,  489),  decided  in  1879,  said: 

We  have  quoted  from  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Justice  Chase  iv 
that  case,  .  .  .  because  it  shows  the  views  of  a  powerful  le^ 
nund  at  that  early  period,  when  the  debates  in  the  convention 
which  framed  the  Constitution  must  have  been  fresh  in  the  mem- 
ory of  the  leading  jurists  of  the  country. 

It  is  proper  to  add,  m  this  connection,  that  Mr.  Justice  Chase  was  a 
signer  of  the  Declaration  of  Independence. 

It  is  also  interesting  to  note,  in  this  connection,  that  John  Marshall 
-of  Virginia,  shortly  to  become  and  thereafter  to  remain,  the  great 
Chief  Justice  of  the  Supreme  Court,  appeared  in  1796  as  counsel  for 
his  State,  in  the  case  of  Ware  v.  Hylton,  and  that  in  the  course  of  hii 
argument  he  said : 

1st.  It  has  been  conceded,  that  independent  nations  have,  in 
general,  the  right  of  confiscation ;  and  that  Virginia,  at  the  time 
of  passing  her  law  [1777],  was  an  independent  nation. 

Speaking  of  the  nature  of  the  Confederation,  the  relations  of  the 
States  composing  it  both  to  themselves  and  to  the  Union,  Mr,  Chief 
Justice  Marshall  observed,  speaking  for  the  Supreme  Court  of  the 
United  States  in  Sturges  v.  Crowninshield  (4  Wheaton    122    192) 
decided  in  1819 :  *        ' 

It  must  be  recollected,  that  previous  to  the  formation  of  the 
new  constitution,  we  were  divided  into  independent  States,  united 
for  some  purposes,  but,  in  most  respects,  sovereign. 

And  in  the  later  case  of  Gibbons  v.  Ogden,  (9  Wheaton,  1,  187),  de- 
cided in  1824,  the  same  great  jurist,  recurring  to  this  matter,  ^ain 
remarked: 

As  preliminary  to  the  very  able  discussions  of  the  constitution, 
which  we  have  heard  from  the  bar.  and  as  having  some  influence 
on  Its  construction,  reference  has  been  made  to  the  political  sit- 
uation of  these  States,  anterior  to  its  formation.   It  has  been  said 


THE  CONVENTION  AN  INTERNATIONAL  CONFERENCE  «« 

^ii*^A^*^^.'^''T''^'  """  coapletely  independent,  and  wen 
connected  with  each  other  only  by  a  lea^ae.    Thk T  tolS 

Aa  to  tte  nature  of  the  more  perfect  Union  and  the  relation  to  H  of 
the  State,  whereof  it »  composed,  Mr.  Chief  Jurtice  ManhaU  «,lemnly 
declared,  in  the  course  of  hi.  opinion  announcing  ^  jurtifyiftTZ 
^ammou.  judgment  of  hi.  brethren,  in  McCuUoch  y.  JfaS   (I 

tIT:  ''5'  '''^'^^^^  ^  18"'  -«i  which  the  lateTSSiJ 
Thayer  considered  the  greatest  of  hi.  caw.: 

In  America,  the  power,  of  wvereignty  are  divided  b«tw»>n  ti.« 

S^'STii'th  t^°^'  r  tZ  °^*^«  ?*«^     Th^^eSh 
■overeign,  witn  reepect  to  the  object,  committed  to  it  and  npi»)»«5. 

sovereign  with  n»pect  to  the  object.  commitSd  to  tlitShen 
f,°l^.**'*'  ^^*  ""*  '""^^Jf  «»•  0'  the  8tat0  of  Texas  v   WkU» 

LZ:^""'.  ?j''ii  '~''"* » "««•  ^-  Chief  LrcJa.^^' 

H  M,"?  ^.'^'A*"*  ^  •^"''''  ^"^  *^«  ^«*-  «'  his  vigorou.  n«m" 
SScf  iiiSlT:  ^'  "'  °'  "^  "^"^"^  P"^-*''  *^-  Chief 

Under  the  Article,  of  Confederation  each  State  retained  it.  i»v 
weignty.  freedom,  and  independence,  and  every  wJSi^r 
deTth'T  Pn'SL"^*  expre«,ly^elegatod  to  the  U^iSlitTun: 
S^ricSed  Sf"i{f '  *^°°«*'  *he  power,  of  the  State,  we?  much 
restncted  still.  aU  powers  not  delegated  to  the  United  StL^ 
nor  prohibited  to  the  State.,  are  r^^  to  the  sSS^r«i;I^ 

m&  Z  Si?l?^^ll-  t^?.<r  '"'^,  «^««<*^  hid  ?c*^S^orrS: 

St"te   haih^^^t?;^^*      *^*  P*"P^*  °'  ^"'h  State  compose  a 

^^ir^sr^^^^^ 

ably  said  that  the  pre.ervation  of  the  States,  imd  Vhe  ma?nt^?e' 
♦i  P  ""i?!!^""*"*"'  *«  "  "°«h  within  the  ^m3  c8,!^of 
tenaScTof  tlTN^ti^  ,P"«'^*«°°  <>'  the  Un1S??nd  tteTaiS' 
?t«t^  •  •  the  National  government.  The  Conrtitution  in  aU 
dlSrStijS"  **•  "  i^dertructible  Union.  comjIiS  S  S 

The  international  import  of  the  Conrtitution  of  a  mof«  perfect 
Umon  w«.  not  lo.t  upon  Benjamin  Franklin,  the  keenest. ^rewS^ 
fflost  sagacious  and  far^,ighted  observer  of  his  day,  who.  shortly  S 

T^rTrS,ttZT  '"'"*^^  was  Pleased  to  saU  . 


XXX  INTRODUCTORY  NOTE 

in  the  Convention  that  form'd  it.    It  is  now  sent  by  Congress  to 
the  several  States  for  their  Confirmation, 

And  he  was  bold  enough  to  suggest  that : 

If  it  succeeds,  I  do  not  see  why  yon  mifrht  not  in  Europe 
carry  the  Project  of  good  Henry  the  4th  into  Execution,  by  form- 
ing a  Federal  Union  and  One  Grand  Uopubliek  of  all  ita  diflferent 
States  &  Kingdoms;  by  means  cf  a  like  Convention;  for  we  had 
many  Interests  to  reconcile.' 

In  view  of  the  origin  and  nature  of  the  Constitution  drafted  by 
official  delegates  of  twelve  of  the  thirteen  "  sovereign,  free  and  in- 
dependent "  States  of  America,  submitted  to  and  ratified  by  the  peo- 
ple of  each  of  the  several  States  in  conventions  assembled  for  that 
purpose,  and  binding  only  those  States  which  had  done  so ;  and  in  view 
of  the  authoritative,  eonspicnous,  and  pertinent  judgments  of  the 
Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States  regarding  the  nature  and  mean- 
ing of  the  Constitution  thereof,  it  would  appear  thai.  Madison's  notes 
of  the  proceedings  of  that  memorable  and  significant  international 
conference  from  which  there  sprang  "  a  more  perfect  Union  .  .  . 
for  the  United  States  of  America,"  are  not  only  of  interest  to  students 
of  Federal  Government,  and  to  the  good  people  of  the  United  States, 
but  also  to  students  of  International  Law,  and  to  the  peoples  of  all 
the  States  forming  the  Society  of  Nations. 


Jaues  Bbowm  Scotf. 


WABHIlfOTOIf,  D.  C, 
November  11,  1018. 


■  Letter  of  October  22,  1787,  to  Mr.  Orand.  Documentary  History  of  the  Con- 
ttitution  of  ihc  United  States  of  America  (published  by  the  Department  of  State 
of  the  United  States),  Vol.  IV  (1906).  pp.  341-342. 


PART  I 

ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  FEDERAL 
CONVENTION  OF  1787 


THE  DECLABATION  OP  INDBPBNDENCE-1776 » 

Ik  Conoubs,  Jult  4,  1776 

Tm  dkamimous  DiciJuuTiow  or  tbi  rmwrwrni  mtmo  Stath  op 

AmuoA 

Whin  in  the  Coum  of  bomui  events,  it  beooniM  necewary  for 
one  people  to  diaaolve  the  political  bands  which  have  connected  them 
with  another,  and  to  aarame  among  the  powen  of  the  earth   the 
■eparate  and  equal  station  to  which  the  Laws  of  Nature  and  of  Na- 
tore's  God  entiUe  them,  a  decent  respect  to  the  opinions  of  mankind 
requiPM  that  they  should  declare  the  causes  which  impel  them  to  the 
separation.— We  hold  theae  truths  to  be  self-evident,  that  all  men  are 
created  equal,  that  they  are  endowed  by  their  Creator  with  certain 
unalienable  Righta,  that  among  these  are  Life,  Liberty  and  the  pur- 
suit  of  Happiness—That  to  secure  these  rights.  Governments  are 
instituted  among  Men,  deriving  their  joat  powers  from  the  consent 
of  the  governed,— Tha«  whenever  any  Form  of  Government  becomes 
destructive  of  these  ends,  it  is  the  Bight  of  the  People  to  alter  or  to 
abolish  It,  and  to  institute  new  Government,  laying  ita  foundation 
on  such  principles  and  organising  ita  powen  in  such  form,  as  to 
them  shall  seem  most  likely  to  effect  their  Safety  and  Happiness. 
Prudence,  indeed,  will  dictate  that  Governments  long  esUblished 
should  not  be  changed  for  light  and  transient  causes;  and  accord- 
ingly all  experience  hath  shown,  that  mankind  are  mora  disposed  to 
suffer,  while  evils  are  sufferable,  than  to  right  themselves  by  abolish- 
ing  the  forms  to  which  they  are  accustomed.    Buv  when  a  long  train 
of  abuses  and  usurpations,  pursuing  invariably  the  same  Object 
evinces  a  design  to  reduce  them  under  absolute  Despotism,  it  is  their 
right,  It  18  their  duty,  to  throw  off  such  Government,  and  to  provide 
new  Guards  for  their  future  security.-Such  has  been  the  patient 
sufferance  of  these  Colonies;      id  such  is  now  the  necessity  which 
constrains  them  to  alter  their  former  Systems  of  Government.    The 
histoij  of  the  present  King  of  Great  Britain  is  a  history  of  re- 
^tlr.."'^""'*.*"'*  urorpations,  all  having  in  direct  object  the 
establishment    of   an    absolute    Tyranny    over    these    Stelas.      To 

«^p;^ru™«Vo^,  trsSr^e*J;%rjsr,  z'v^sS^^'  "--'*• 

xzxiH 


xzxiT  DEBATES  IM  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


prove  tbk,  let  Facte  be  rabmitted  to  «  eudid  world.— He  hat  re- 
fneed  hie  Aieent  to  Law*,  the  meet  wholeeome  aod  neccaaaiy  for 
the  public  good. — He  has  forbidden  hie  Oovemore  to  paM  Law* 
of  immediate  and  preaaiiig  importance,  onleH  ■ospendcd  in  their 
operation  till  hia  Aaaent  ihoald  be  obtained;  and  when  io  aua- 
pended,  he  has  utterly  neglected  to  attend  to  them. — He  baa  refnaed 
to  pais  other  Laws  for  the  accommodation  of  large  distrieto  of  people, 
unless  those  people  would  relinquish  the  right  of  Representation  in 
the  Legislature,  a  right  inestimable  to  them  and  formidable  to  tyranta 
only. — He  has  called  together  legislative  bodies  at  places  nnnsaa!, 
uncomfortabl*.  and  distant  from  the  depository  of  their  pah' 
Records,  for  the  sole  purpose  of  fstiguing  them  into  compliance  with 
hia  measures.— He  has  dissolved  Representative  Houses  repeatedly, 
for  opposing  with  manly  firmness  his  invssions  on  the  rigbta  of  the 
people.— He  haa  refused  for  a  long  time,  after  such  dissolutions,  to 
cause  others  to  be  elected ;  whereby  the  Legislative  powers,  ineapable 
of  Annihilation,  have  returned  to  the  People  at  large  for  their  exercise ; 
the  State  remaining  in  the  mean  time  exposed  to  all  the  dsngen  of 
invasion  from  without,  and  convulsions  within. — He  has  endeavoured 
to  prevent  the  population  of  these  States ;  for  that  purpose  obstructing 
the  Laws  for  Naturalization  of  Foreigners ;  refusing  to  pass  others  to 
encourage  their  migration  hither,  and  raif'  ;  the  conditiona  of  new 
Appropriations  of  Lands.— He  has  obstructed  the  Administration  of 
Justice,  by  refusing  his  Assent  to  Laws  for  establishing  Judiciary 
powers. — He  has  made  Judges  dependent  on  his  Will  alone,  for  the 
tenure  of  their  ofBces,  and  the  amount  and  payment  of  their  fit'ar*  : 
—He  has  erected  a  multitude  of  New  Offices,  and  sent  hither  swarms 
cf  Officers  to  harrass  our  people,  and  eat  out  their  subetance. — He 
has  kept  among  us,  in  times  of  peace.  Standing  Armies,  without  the 
Constnt  of  our  legislstures. — He  has  affected  to  render  the  Military 
independent  of  and  superior  to  the  Civil  power. — He  has  combined 
with  others  to  subject  us  to  a  jurisdiction  foreign  to  our  constitution, 
and  unacknowledged  by  our  laws ;  giving  his  Assent  to  their  Acts  of 
pretended  Legislation : — For  quartering;  large  bodies  of  armed  troops 
among  us :— For  protecting  them,  by  a  mock  Trial,  from  punishment 
for  any  Murders  which  they  should  commit  on  the  Inhabitants  of 
these  States :— For  cutting  off  our  Trade  with  all  parts  of  the  world : — 
For  imposing  Taxes  on  ns  without  our  Consent : — For  depriving  us 
in  many  cases,  of  the  benefits  of  Trial  by  Jury: — For  transporting 
us  beyond  Seas  to  be  tried  for  pretended  offences : — For  abolishing  the 
free  System  of  English  Laws  in  a  neighbouring  Province,  establishing 
therein  an  Arbitrary  government,  and  enlarging  its  Boundaries  so  as 


ANTBCBDENTS  OF  THE  COKVBNTION  OF  1787    _ 

lite  for  u.  in  dl  ca«,^tao«.r     H  ^^  *^*  **  '•«** 

our  feuow  citi«i..  t.k„  c.p«"i"^th"SrSL*i;  r^'f'^ 

?So"d  to  SX«Vi:7  •!y."'  ?-  °»"''-^''»  ^«  J^ 

P-f,H«n.  V       f*****"  «>  the  most  bamble  temu:    Our  reoMtod 
drcnin«tance«  of  our  •mi^^*;  ^         ?  '^"'^•d  ^m  of  thfl 

•"  Auegiance  to  the  Bntwh  Crown,  and  that  aU  poUticsi  con- 


xxrvi    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

nection  between  them  and  the  State  of  Great  Britain  is  and  ought  to 
be  totally  dissolved;  and  that  as  Free  and  Independent  States,  they 
have  full  Power  to  levy  War,  conclude  Peace,  contract  Alliances, 
establish  Commerce,  and  to  do  all  other  Acts  and  Things  which  Inde- 
pendent States  may  of  right  do.-And  for  the  support  of  this  Declara- 
tion with  a  firm  reliance  on  the  protection  of  Divine  Providence,  we 
mutually  pledge  to  each  other  our  Lives,  our  Fortunes  and  our 

■""^'^  ^°''"-  JOHN  HANCOCK. 


y»u>  Bampthire 

JOSIAK  BaBTIXTT, 

Wm.  Whippix, 
Matthxw  Thobiitom. 

Mauachutetti  Bay 
Saul.  Adaks, 
John  Adams, 
RoBT.  Tbeat  Paetc, 
E1.BIUD0E  Gesby. 

Rhode  Itland 
Stvp.  Hopkins, 
WnxiAK  Elubt. 

Coiuiectieut 

BOOCB  Srebvait, 
Sam'ei.  Huhtinoton, 
Wm.  WnxiAMS, 
Oliybb  WOICOTT. 

New  York 
Wm.  Flotd, 
Phii.  Livinostoh, 
Fbans.  Lewis, 
Ixvns  Mobbis. 


Hew  Jeriey 
RicHD.  Stocrroif, 

JNO.  WITHEB8P005, 

Fbas.  Hofkinson, 
John  Habt, 
Abba.  Clabk. 

Penntylvania 
Robt.  M0BBI8, 
Benjamin  Rush, 
Benja.  Fbankiin, 
John  Mwton, 
Geo.  Cltmeb, 
Jas.  Smith, 
Geo.  Tatlob, 
James  WasoN, 
Geo.  Ross. 

Delaieare 
Caesab  Rodnet, 
Geo.  Read, 
Tho.  M'Kkan. 

Maryland 
Samuel  Chase, 
Wm.  Faca, 
Tbos.  Stone, 
Chablbs  Cabboll  of 


Virginia 

Geoboe  Wtthb, 

RiCHABD  BeNBT  Lb, 

Th.  Jeitebson, 
Benja.  Babbison, 
Th8.  Nelson,  JB., 
Fbancis  Lioktpoot  Lie, 
Cabteb  Bbaxton. 

yorth  Carolina 
Wm.  Hoopeb, 
Joseph  Hewes, 
John  Penn. 

South  Carolina 
Edwabi>  Rotledoe, 
Thos.  Hetwabd,  JtTHB., 
Thomas  Ltncw,  Jiinb., 

ABTHUB  MlDOLTION. 

Georgia 
Bhtton  GwiNNrrr, 
Ltman  Haix, 
Geo.  Walton. 


Carrollton. 


NOTE-Mr.  Ferdinand  ^^fJT^^^J^yl^'^t.X  ^reXn'^'"^  il 
SUte  at  Washington,  ^r*-,  ^tC^ctuLtionff  them  is  not  alway.  the 
t^  f'acsimile  of  the  onpnal.  ^«*  g^^'J"^.'*^, -^  the  f«~imUe  of  the  ori|toal 


AETICLES  OF  CONFEDERATION' 


M  i'.OH  1,  1791 


To  all  to  whom  these  Presev 
gates  of  the  States  affixc 


si  all  come,  w  ihe  under  signed  Dde- 
It  our  Names,  send  greeting. 


Whereas  the  Delegates  of  the  United  States  of  America,  in  Con- 
fess assembled,  did,  on  the  15th  day  of  November,  in  the  Year  of  Our 
Lord  One  thousand  Seven  Hundred  and  Seventy  seven,  and  in  the 
Second  Tear  of  the  Independence  of  America,  agree  to  certain  articles 
of  Confederation  and  perpetual  Union  between  the  States  of  New- 
hampshire,  Massachusetts-bay,  Rhodeisland  and  Providence  Planta- 
tions, Connecticut,  New  York,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  North-Carolina,  South-Cardina  and  Oeorgia  in 
the  words  following,  viz.  "  Articles  of  Confederation  and  perpetual 
Union  between  the  states  of  Newhampshire,  Massachusetts-bay, 
Rhodeisland  and  Providence  Plantations,  Connecticut,  New- York, 
New-Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North- 
Carolina,  South-Carolina  and  Georgia. 

Article  I.  The  Stile  of  this  confeder«ey  shall  be  "  The  United 
States  of  America." 

Article  II.  Each  state  retains  its  cavereignty,  freedom,  and  inde- 
pendence, and  every  Power,  Jurisdiction  and  right,  which  is  not  by 
this  confederation  expressly  delegated  to  the  United  States,  in  Con- 
gress assembled. 

Article  III.  The  said  states  hereby  severally  enter  into  a  firm 
league  of  friendship  with  each  other,  for  their  common  defence,  the 
security  of  their  Liberties,  and  their  mutual  and  general  welfare,  bind- 
ing themselves  to  assist  each  other,  against  all  force  offered  to,  or  at- 

■  Journal*  of  the  Continental  Congrett,  Libntry  of  CongreM  edition,  Vol. 
XIX  (1912),  p.  214. 

The  Articleg  of  Confederation  were  ap-eed  to  by  the  Oongre««,  November  15, 
1777.  They  were,  as  appeam  from  the  liat  of  signatureg  affixed  to  these  Article*, 
Bigned  at  different  times  by  the  delegates  of  the  different  American  States. 
On  March  1,  1781,  the  dolegatea  from  Marvland,  the  laot  of  the  States  to  take 
action,  "did,  in  behalf  of  the  said  State  of  Maryland,  sign  and  ratify  the  said 
articles,  by  which  act  the  Confederation  of  the  United  States  of  America  was 
completed,  each  and  every  of  the  Thirteen  United  States,  from  New  Hampshire 
to  UMrgia,  both  included,  having  adopted  and  confirmed,  and  by  their  delegates 
in  Congress,  ratified  the  same."    Ibid.,  p.  214. 

zxztU 


xxxviii    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

tacks  made  upon  them,  or  any  of  them,  on  account  of  religion, 
sovereignty,  trade,  or  any  other  pretence  whatever. 

Article  IV.  The  Better  to  secure  and  perpetuate  mutual  friend- 
ship and  intercourse  among  the  people  of  the  diflferent  states  in  this 
union,  the  free  inhabitants  of  each  of  these  states,  paupers,  vaga- 
bonds and  fugitives  from  justice  excepted,  shall  be  entitled  to  all 
privileges  and  immunities  of  free  citizens  in  the  several  states;  and 
the  people  of  each  state  shall  have  free  ingress  and  regress  to  and 
from  any  other  state,  and  shall  enjoy  therein  all  the  privileges  of 
trade  and  commerce,  subject  to  the  same  duties,  impositions  and  re- 
strictions as  the  inhabitants  thereof  respectively,  provided  that  such 
restriction  shall  not  extend  so  far  as  to  prevent  the  removal  of 
property  imported  into  any  state,  to  any  other  state,  of  which 
the  Owner  is  an  inhabitant ;  provided  also  that  no  imposition,  duties  or 
restriction  shall  be  laid  by  any  state,  on  the  property  of  the  united 
states,  or  either  of  them. 

If  any  Person  guilty  of,  or  charged  with  treason,  felony,  or  other 
high  misdemeanor  in  any  state,  shall  flee  from  Justice,  and  be  found 
in  any  of  the  united  states,  he  shall,  upon  demand  of  the  Governor 
or  executive  power,  of  the  state  from  which  he  fled,  be  delivered  up 
and  removed  to  the  state  having  jurisdiction  of  his  offence. 

Full  faith  and  credit  shall  be  given  in  each  of  these  states  to  the 
records,  acts  and  judicial  proceedings  of  the  courts  and  magistrates 
of  every  other  state. 

Article  V.  For  the  more  convenient  management  of  the  general 
interests  of  the  united  states,  delegates  shall  be  annually  appointed 
in  such  manner  as  the  legislature  of  each  state  shall  direct,  to  meet 
in  Congress  on  the  first  Monday  in  November,  in  every  year,  with  a 
power  reserved  to  each  state,  to  recal  its  delegates,  or  any  of  them, 
at  any  time  within  the  year,  and  to  send  others  in  their  stead,  for 
the  remainder  of  the  Year. 

No  state  shall  be  represented  in  Congress  by  less  than  two,  nor 
by  more  than  seven  Members;  and  no  person  shall  be  capable  of 
being  a  delegate  for  more  than  three  years  in  any  term  of  six  years ; 
nor  shall  any  person,  being  a  delegate,  be  capable  of  holding  any 
office  under  the  united  states,  for  which  he,  or  another  for  his  benefit 
receives  any  salary,  fees  or  emolument  of  any  kind. 

Each  state  shall  maintain  its  own  delegates  in  a  meeting  of 
the  states,  and  while  they  act  as  members  of  the  committee  of  the 
states. 

In  determining  questions  in  the  united  states  in  Congress  assem- 
bled, each  state  shall  have  one  vote. 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787  xxxix 
Freedom  of  speech  and  debate  in  Conffresn  ah.n  «„♦  k„  • 

.i.rr:s;sr  ■■'?rr»::^"r.  rr^j?r^' 

m  congres.  assembled,  with  any  king  prir "«  or  L?/ 

time  of  peace,  except  such  number  only  m  i„  ♦£«  ^L!l  !;  !'  T 
united  states,  in  congress  assembled  .h«n  Z  ^  ^  ?"'°*  "'  *^" 
garrison  the  forts  nec«^f!I^T.Hlf  ^  ^T'^  "^'^'^''  *° 

state  shall  alwa«  ^^7 ^L»     ^'*f'"^°^  '^'^  »tate;  but  every 

sufflciently  a3  iTd'^cou't^^"  ^^H  "'  'r'^^"'^  ""'*''^' 
have  ready  for  use   in  nnhu/^'  J^     ^"''"^'  ""^  constantly 

and  tents,  and  a^^lr  aalftv"!;  *  '^"'^  °"'°'^''  *»'  ^'^  P'«^« 
equipage.  ^    ^      *'*^  **'  ■™'''  «°™anition  and  camp 

-teomm=tr:;rrp.rv^r:i-r 


xl         DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

or  reprisal,  except  it  be  after  a  declaration  of  war  by  the  united  states 
in  congress  assembled,  and  then  only  against  the  kingdom  or  state  and 
the  subjects  thereof,  against  which  war  has  been  so  declared,  and 
under  such  regulations  as  shall  be  established  by  the  united  states  in 
congress  assembled,  unless  such  state  be  infested  by  pirates,  in  which 
case  vessels  of  war  may  be  fitted  out  for  that  occasion,  and  kept  so 
long  aa  the  danger  shall  continue,  or  until  the  united  states  in  con- 
gress assembled,  shall  determine  otherwise. 

Article  VII.  When  land-forces  are  raised  by  any  state  for  the 
common  defence,  all  officers  of  or  under  the  rank  of  colonel,  shall 
be  appointed  by  the  legislature  of  each  state  respectively,  by  whom 
such  forces  shall  be  raised,  or  in  such  manner  as  such  state  shall 
direct,  and  all  vacancies  shall  be  filled  up  by  the  State  which  first 
made  the  appointment. 

Article  VIII.  All  charges  of  war,  and  all  other  expences  that 
shall  be  incurred  tor  the  common  defence  or  general  welfare,  and  al- 
lowed by  the  united  states  in  congress  assembled,  shall  be  defrayed 
out  of  a  common  treasury,  which  shall  be  supplied  by  the  several 
states  in  proportion  to  the  value  of  all  land  within  each  state,  granted 
to  or  surveyed  for  any  Person,  as  such  land  and  the  buildings  and 
improvements  thereon  shall  be  estimated  according  to  such  mode  as 
the  united  states  in  congress  assembled,  shall  from  time  to  time 
direct  and  appoint. 

The  taxes  for  paying  that  proportion  shall  be  laid  and  levied  by 
the  authority  and  direction  of  the  legislatures  of  the  several  states 
within  the  time  agreed  upon  by  the  united  states  in  congress  as- 
sembled. 

Article  IX.  The  united  states  in  congress  assembled,  shall  have 
the  sole  and  exclusive  right  and  power  of  determining  on  peace 
and  war,  except  in  the  cases  mentioned  in  the  sixth  article — of  sending 
and  receiving  ambassadors— entering  into  treaties  and  alliances,  pro- 
vided that  no  treaty  of  commerce  shall  be  made  whereby  the  legis- 
lative power  of  the  respective  states  shall  be  restrained  from  im- 
posing such  imposts  and  duties  on  foreigners,  as  their  own  people 
are  subjected  to,  or  from  prohibiting  the  exportation  or  importa- 
tion of  any  species  of  goods  or  commodities  whatsoever — of  establish- 
ing rules  for  deciding  in  all  cases,  what  captures  on  land  or  water  shall 
be  legal,  and  in  what  manner  prizes  taken  by  land  or  naval  forces 
in  the  service  of  the  united  states  shall  be  divided  or  appropriated— 
of  granting  letters  of  marque  and  reprisal  in  times  of  peace— appoint- 
ing courts  for  the  Irial  of  piracies  and  felonies  committed  on  the  high 
seas  and  establishing  courts  for  receiving  and  determining  finally 


AaTECEDENTS  op  the  convention  op  1787        xU 

appeals  in  all  cases  of  captures,  provided  that  no  member  of  congreas 
shall  be  appointed  a  judge  of  any  of  the  said  courts. 

The  united  states  in  congress  assembled  shall  also  be  the  last  !«• 
sort  on  appeal  in  all  disputes  and  differences  now  subsisting  or  that 
hereafter  may  arise  between  two  or  more  states  concerning  boundary, 
jurisdiction  or  any  other  cause  whatever ;  which  authority  shall  always 
be  exercised  in  the  manner  following.   Whenever  the  legislative  or 
executive  authority  or  lawful  agent  of  any  state  in  controversy  with 
another  shall  present  a  petition  to  congress  stating  the  matter  in 
question  and  praying  for  a  hearing,  notice  thereof  shall  be  given  by 
order  of  congress  to  the  legislative  or  executive  authority  of  the  other 
state  in  controversy,  and  a  day  assigned  for  the  appearance  of  the 
parties  by  their  lawful  agents,  who  shall  then  be  directed  to  appoint 
by  joint  consent,  commissioners  or  judges  to  constitute  a  court  for 
hearing  and  determining  the  matter  in  question:  but  if  they  cannot 
agree,  congress  shall  name  three  persons  out  of  each  of  the  united 
states,  anrl  from  the  list  of  such  persons  each  party  shall  alternately 
strike  out  one,  the  petitioners  beginning,  until  the  number  shall  be 
reduced  to  thirteen ;  and  from  that  number  not  lew  than  seven,  nor 
more  than  nine  names  as  congress  shall  direct,  shall  in  the  presence 
of  congress  be  drawn  out  by  lot,  and  the  persons  whose  names  shall 
be  so  drawn  or  any  five  of  them,  shall  be  commissioners  or  judges,  to 
hear  and  finally  determine  the  controversy,  so  always  as  a  major  part 
of  the  judges  who  shall  hear  the  cause  shall  agree  in  the  determinar 
tion :  and  if  either  party  shaU  neglect  to  attend  at  the  day  appointed, 
without  showing  reasons,  which  congress  shall  judge  sufficient,  or 
being  present  shall  refuse  to  strike,  the  congress  shall  proceed  to 
nominate  three  persons  out  of  each  state,  and  the  secretary  of  con- 
gress shall  strike  in  behalf  of  Cuch  party  absent  or  refusing;  and  the 
judgment  and  sentence  of  the  court  to  be  appointed,  in  the  manner 
before  prescribed,  shall  be  final  and  conclusive;  and  if  any  of  the 
parties  shall  refuse  to  submit  to  the  authority  of  such  court,  or  to 
appear  or  defend  their  claim  or  cause,  the  court  shall  nevertheless 
proceed  to  pronounce  sentence,  or  judgment,  which  shall  in  like  man- 
ner be  final  and  dedaive,  the  judgment  or  sentence  and  other  proceed- 
ings being  in  either  case  transmitted  to  congress,  and  lodged  among 
the  acts  of  congress  for  the  security  of  the  parties  concerned:  pro- 
vided that  every  commissioner,  before  he  sits  in  judgment,  shall  take 
an  oath  to  be  administred  by  one  of  the  judges  of  the  suprone  or 
superior  court  of  the  state,  where  the  cause  shall  be  tried,  "  well  and 
truly  to  hear  and  determine  the  matter  in  question,  according  to  the 
best  of  his  judgment,  without  favour,  affection  or  hope  of  reward: " 


xlU       DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

provided  also,  that  no  state  shall  be  deprived  of  territory  for  the 
benefit  of  the  united  states. 

All  controversies  concerning  the  private  right  of  soil  claimed  un- 
der different  grants  of  two  or  more  states,  whose  jurisdictions  as  they 
may  respect  such  lands,  and  the  states  which  passed  such  grants  are 
adjusted,  the  said  grants  or  either  of  them  being  at  the  same  time 
claimed  to  have  originated  antecedent  to  such  settlement  of  juris- 
diction, shall  on  the  petition  of  either  party  to  the  congress  of  the 
united  states,  be  finally  determined  as  near  as  may  be  in  the  same 
manner  as  is  before  prescribed  for  deciding  disputes  respecting  terri- 
torial juriidiction  between  different  states. 

The  united  states  in  congress  assembled  shaU  also  have  the  sole 
and  exclusive  right  and  powe**  of  regulating  the  alloy  and  value  of 
coin  struck  by  their  own  authority,  or  by  that  of  the  respective 
states — fixing  the  standard  of  weights  and  measures  throughout  the 
united  states — regulating  the  trade  and  managing  all  affairs  with 
the  Indians,  not  members  of  any  of  the  states,  provided  that  the 
legislative  rig^t  of  any  state  within  its  own  limits  be  not  infringed 
nr  violated — establishing  or  regulating  post-ofiices  from  one  state  to 
another,  throughout  all  the  united  states,  and  exacting  such  postage 
on  the  papers  passing  thro'  the  same  as  may  be  requisite  to  defray 
the  expences  of  the  said  office — appointing  all  officers  of  the  land 
forces,  in  the  service  of  the  united  states,  excepting  regimental  of- 
ficers— appointing  all  the  officers  of  the  naval  forces,  and  commission- 
ing all  officers  whatever  in  the  service  of  the  united  states — ^making 
rules  for  the  government  and  regulation  of  the  said  land  and  naval 
forces,  and  directing  their  (^rations. 

The  united  states  in  congress  assembled  shall  have  authority  to 
appc'nt  a  committee,  to  sit  in  the  recem  of  congress,  to  be  denomi- 
nated "  A  Committee  of  the  States,"  and* to  consist  of  one  delegate 
from  each  state;  and  to  appoint  such  other  committees  and  civil  of- 
ficers as  may  be  necessary  for  managing  the  general  affairs  of  the 
united  states  under  their  direction — ^to  appoint  one  of  their  num- 
ber to  preside,  provided  that  no  person  be  allowed  to  serve  in  the 
office  of  president  mon  rhan  one  year  in  any  term  of  three  years; 
to  ascertain  the  necessary  sums  of  Money  to  be  raised  for  the  service 
of  the  united  states,  and  to  appropriate  and  apply  the  same  for  de- 
fraying the  public  expences — to  boirow  money,  or  emit  bills  on  the 
credit  of  the  united  states,  transmitting  every  half  year  to  tue  re- 
spective states  an  account  rf  the  sums  of  money  so  borrowed  or 
emitted, — to  build  and  equip  a  navy — to  agree  upon  the  number  of 
land  foroes,  and  to  make  requisitions  from  each  state  for  its  quota,  in 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787     xUu 

proportion  to  the  number  of  white  inhabitants  in  roch  itate;  which  re- 
quisition shall  be  binding,  and  thereupon  the  legislature  of  each  state 
shall  appoint  the  regimental  officers,  raise  the  men  and  cloath,  arm  and 
equip  them  in  a  soldier  like  manner,  at  the  ezpence  of  the  united 
states ;  and  the  officers  and  men  so  cloathed,  armed  and  equipped  shall 
march  to  the  place  appointed,  and  within  the  time  agreed  on  by  the 
united  states  in  congress  assembled:  But  if  the  united  states  in  con- 
gress assembled  shall,  on  consideration  of  circumstances  judge  proper 
that  any  state  should  not  raise  men,  or  should  raise  a  smaller  number 
than  its  quota,  and  that  any  other  state  should  raise  a  greater  number 
of  men  than  the  quota  thereof,  such  extra  number  shall  be  raised,  of- 
ficered, cloathed,  armed  and  equipped  in  the  same  manner  as  the  quota 
of  such  state,  unless  the  legislature  of  such  state  shall  judge  that  such 
extra  number  cannot  be  safely  spared  out  of  the  same,  in  which  case 
they  shall  raise  officer,  cloath,  arm  and  equip  as  many  of  such  extra 
number  as  they  judge  can  be  safely  spared.  And  the  officers  and  men 
so  cloathed,  armed  and  equipped,  shall  march  to  the  place  appointed, 
and  within  the  time  agreed  on  by  the  united  states  in  congress  as- 
sembled. 

The  united  states  in  congress  assembled  shall  never  engage  in  a 
war,  nor  grant  letters  of  marque  and  reprisal  in  time  of  peace,  nor 
enter  into  any  treaties  or  alliances,  nor  coin  money,  nor  tegulate  the 
value  thereof,  nor  ascertain  the  sums  and  expences  necessary  for  the 
defence  and  welfare  of  the  united  states,  or  any  of  them,  nor  emit 
bills,  nor  borrow  money  on  the  credit  of  the  united  states,  nor  ap- 
propriate money,  nor  agree  upon  the  number  of  vessels  of  war,  to 
be  built  or  purchased,  or  the  number  of  land  or  sea  forces  to  be 
raised,  nor  appoint  a  commander  in  chief  of  the  army  or  navy,  un- 
less nine  states  assent  to  the  same:  nor  shall  a  question  on  any 
other  point,  except  for  adjourning  from  day  to  day  he  determined, 
unless  by  the  votes  of  a  majority  of  the  united  stat-o  in  congress 
assembled. 

The  congress  of  the  united  states  shall  have  power  to  adjourn 
to  any  time  within  the  year,  and  to  any  place  within  the  united 
states,  80  that  no  period  of  adjournment  be  for  a  longer  duration  than 
the  space  of  six  Months,  and  shall  publish  the  Journal  of  their  pro- 
ceedings monthly,  except  such  parts  thereof  relating  to  treaties,  al- 
liances or  military  operations,  as  in  their  judgment  require  secrecy; 
and  the  yeaa  and  nays  of  the  delegates  of  each  state  on  any  question 
shall  be  entered  on  the  Journal,  when  it  is  desired  by  any  delegate; 
and  the  delegates  of  a  state,  or  any  of  them,  at  his  or  their  request 
"Aall  be  furnished  with  a  transcript  of  the  said  Journal,  except  such 


xliv      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

parts  aa  are  above  excepted,  to  lay  before  the  legialatares  of  the  lev- 
eral  states. 

Article  X.  The  committee  of  the  states,  or  any  nine  of  them,  shall 
be  authorized  to  execute,  in  the  recess  of  congress,  such  of  the  powers 
of  congress  as  the  united  states  in  congress  assembled,  by  the  con- 
sent of  nine  states,  shall  from  time  to  time  think  expedient  to  vest  them 
with ;  provided  that  no  power  be  delegated  to  the  said  committee,  for 
the  exercise  of  which,  by  the  articles  of  confederation,  the  voice  of  nine 
states  in  the  congress  of  the  united  states  assembled  is  requisite. 

Article  XI.  Canada  acceding  to  this  confederation,  and  joining  in 
the  measures  of  the  united  states,  shall  be  admitted  into,  and  en- 
titled to  all  the  advantages  of  this  union :  but  no  other  colony  shall 
be  admitted  into  the  same,  unless  such  admission  be  agreed  to  by  nine 
states. 

Article  XII.  All  bills  of  credit  emitted,  monies  borrowed  and 
debts  contracted  by,  or  under  the  authority  of  congress,  before  the 
assembling  of  the  united  states,  in  pursuance  of  the  present  con- 
federation, shall  be  deemed  and  considered  as  a  charge  against  the 
united  states,  for  payment  and  satisfaction  whereof  the  said  united 
states,  and  the  public  faith  are  hereby  solemnly  pledged. 

Article  XIII.  Every  state  shall  abide  by  the  determinations  of 
the  united  states  in  congress  assembled,  on  all  questions  which  by  this 
confederation  are  submitted  to  them.  And  the  Articles  of  this  confed- 
eration shall  be  inviolably  observed  by  every  state,  and  the  union 
shall  be  perpetual ;  nor  shall  any  alteration  at  any  time  hereafter  be 
made  in  any  of  them ;  unless  such  alteration  be  agreed  to  in  a  con- 
gress of  the  united  states,  and  be  afterwards  confirmed  by  the  legis- 
latures of  every  state. 

And  Whereas  it  hath  pleased  the  Great  Governor  of  the  World  to 
incline  the  hearts  of  the  legislatures  we  respectively  represent  in 
congress,  to  approve  of,  and  to  authorize  us  to  ratify  the  said  articles 
of  confederation  and  perpetual  union.  Know  Ye  that  we  the  under- 
signed delegates,  by  virtue  of  the  power  and  authority  to  us  given  for 
that  purpose,  do  by  these  presents,  in  the  name  and  in  behalf  of  our 
respective  constituentb,  fully  and  entirely  ratify  and  confirm  each  and 
every  of  the  said  articles  of  confederation  and  perpetual  union,  and 
all  and  singular  the  matters  and  things  there. n  contained:  And  we 
do  further  solemnly  plight  and  engage  the  faith  of  our  respective  con- 
stituents, that  they  shall  abide  by  the  determinations  of  the  united 
states  in  congress  assembled,  on  all  questions,  which  by  the  said  con- 
federation are  submitted  to  them.  And  that  the  articles  thereof  shall 
be  inviolably  observed  by  the  states  we  respectively  represent,  and 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787       xl? 

that  the  union  shall  be  perpetual.  In  Witnen  whereof  w«  have  her»- 
unto  set  our  hands  in  Congress.  Done  at  Philadelphia  in  th».  state  of 
Pennsylvania  the  ninth  day  of  July,  in  the  Tear  of  our  Lord  one 
Thousand  wven  Hundred  and  Seventy-eight,  and  in  the  third  year  of 
the  independence  of  America. 


Jofiah  Bartlett, 
John  Wentworth,  Jun' 
Augiut  8th,  1778, 

John  Hancock, 
Samuel  Adanu, 
Elbridge  Qerry, 
Francis  Dana, 
Jamet  LorM, 
Samuel  Holt««, 

William  Ellcry, 
Henry  Marchant, 
John  Collini, 


On  the  part  *  behalf  of  the  SUte  ot  Ntw  HaBpaUrt. 


On  the  part  and  behalf  of  the  Stote  of  MaMachuMtta 


On  the  part  and  behalf  of  the  SUt*  of  Rhode-Uaad 
and  ProTidence  Plantation*. 


Roger  Sherman, 
Samuel  Huntington, 
Oliver  Wolcott, 
Titui  Hoamer, 
Andrew  Adama, 


On  the  part  and  behalf  of  the  StaU  of  Connecticut. 


Ja'  Ouane, 
Fra:  Lewie, 
W"  Duer, 
Gouv  Morris, 

Jno  Withenpoon, 
Nathi  Scudder, 

Robert  Morria, 
Daniel  Roberdeau, 
Jon.  Bayard  Smith, 
William  Clingar, 
Joseph  Reed, 

22d  July,  1778. 

Tho>  McKean, 
Feb»  22d.  1779, 

John  Dickinson, 
May  Sth,  1779, 

Nicholas  Van  Dyke, 

Jolm  Hanson, 

March  1,  1781. 
Daniel  Carroll,  do 


On  the  part  and  bdialf  of  the  SUte  of  New  York. 


)  On  the  Part  and  in  Behalf  of  the  State  of  New 
f      Jersey,  November  26th,  1778. 


On  the  part  and  behalf  of  the  State  of  PennaylTsaia. 


On  the  part  k  behalf  of  the  SUte  of  Delaware. 


On  the  part  and  behalf  of  the  SUte  of  ICaryland. 


Richard  Henry  Lee, 
John  Banister, 
Thomas  Adams, 
Jn?  Harvie, 
Francis  Lij^tfoot  Lee, 


On  the  Part  and  Behalf  of  the  SUte  of  Virginia. 


xlvi      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


John  Prnn, 

July  2lit,  1778, 
Corn*  H«rn.  tt, 
Jd«  VVllUami, 

Hniry  Laurent, 
WillUm  Henry  Drayton, 
J  no  \Uthew«, 
Rirh<)  HutMin, 
Tho*  Heyward,  jun». 

Jn<>  Walton, 

24th  July,  1778, 
Edw<i  Trlfair, 
Edwd  Langworthy, 


On    the   part  and   behalf   of   the   SUto   of   North 
^arolina. 


1 " 


On  the  part  and  on  behalf  of  the  8Ute  of  South 
Carolina. 


On  the  part  and  behalf  of  the  BUU  of  Georgia.' 


'  The  proceedini<R  of  this  day  with  reapect  to  the  signing  of  the  Article!  of 
Confederation,  the  Articles  themselve*  and  the  aigneri  are  entered  in  the  Paper* 
of  the  Continentat  Congreu,  No.  9  (History  of  the  Confederation),  but  not  in  the 
Journal  itself.  The  Articles  are  printed  here  from  the  original  roll  in  the 
Bureau  of  RoUa  and  Library,  Department  of  Statft 


RssoLmoN  or  thb  Oznoul  Assimblt  or  VnoiNU,  Januabt  21, 
1786,  pROPOBiNa  A  Joint  Mzehno  or  Commusionuh  rBOM  th  ^ 
States  to  consideb  and  rkomiund  a  Fmdmmal  Plan  ro«  reou- 

UlTINQ   COVMSRCE.^ 

A  motion  was  made,  that  the  HouM  do  come  to  the  following 

resolution : 


Resolved,  That  Edmund  Randolph,  James  Madison,  jun.  Walter 
Jones,  Saint  George  Tucker  and  Meriwether  Smith,  Esquires,  be  ap- 
pointed commissionerB,  who,  or  any  three  of  whom,  shall  meet  such 
commissioners  as  may  be  appointed  by  the  other  SUtes  in  the  Union, 
at  a  time  and  place  to  be  agreed  on,  to  take  into  consideration  tiie 
trade  of  the  United  States;  to  examine  the  relative  situations  and 
trade  of  the  said  States ;  to  consider  how  far  a  uniform  system  in  their 
commercial  regulations  may  be  necessary  to  their  common  interest  and 
their  permanent  harmony;  and  to  report  to  the  several  States,  such 
an  act  relative  to  this  great  object,  as,  when  unanimously  ratified  by 
them,  will  enable  the  United  States  in  Congress,  effectually  to  provide 
for  the  same. 


M^Tv'ir^HR  n  ^R*,^^?!?  "'  P'l^J^,"'  *''•  Commonwealth  of  Virgin!.,  Jan- 


idvU 


PROCEEDINGS  OF  COMMISSIONERS  TO  REMEDY  DEFECTS 
OF  THE  FEDERAL  GOVERNMENT  ' 

Annapolis  in  the  Stat*  or  Mabtlano 
StmuBtM  11*  1786. 

At  s  me«'ting  cf  CommiMioners,  from  the  States  of  New  York, 
New  Jeney,  Peoniylvftnit,  Delaware  and  Vinrinia— 


Preient. 

Alexander  Hamilton 
EoBERT  Benson 

Abraham  Clarke 
William  C.  Hol'ston 
James  Schuarman 

Tench  Coxe 

George  Read 
John  Dickinson 
Richard  Bassett 

Edmund  Randolph 
James  Madison,  Junior 
Saint  George  Tucker 


Sew  York 


Delaware 


Virginia 


Mr  Dickinaon  was  unanimoualy  elected  Chairman. 

The  Commissioners  produced  their  Credentials  from  their  respec- 
tive States ;  which  were  read. 

After  a  full  communication  of  Sentiments,  and  deliberate  consid- 
eration of  what  would  be  proper  to  be  done  by  the  Commissioners 
now  assembled,  it  was  unanimonsly  agreed:  that  a  Committee  be 
appointed  to  prepare  a  draft  of  a  Report  to  be  made  to  the  States 
having  Commissioners  attending  at  this  meeting— Adjourned  'till 
Wednesday  Morning. 


'  From  the  original  in  the  Library  of  Con^T'esg. 

Notwithstanding  the  order  to  the  chairman  to  sign  the  address  it  was  signed 
by  all  the  members  of  the  Convention. 

zItUI 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OF  17 


xUs 


Wdnuoat  ScPTXiun  13*  1786. 
Met  agreeable  to  .uljournmfnt. 
♦h.II"  ?"""u"V*':  •PP«"'»''d  '•"■  »»>»»  PorpoM,  reported  the  draft  of 
♦T„„T    '7       .     ."'^  '*"^'  *'•*  '°**^'"«  proceeded  to  the  eon-idert- 

loJ^rMoC'"  """  ""•  ""°*  *'"""•  ^'^^^""'^    '^^ 

Thubsdat  Sbpt:  14*  1786. 

Met  agreeable  to  Adjournment. 

The  meeting  resumed  the  consideration  of  the  draft  of  the  Report  and 

after  «,me  tune  .pent  therein,  and  amendmenU  made,  tkV!^:  wj 

unanimoualy  agreed  to.  and  iaaa  follows,  to  wit.  ««•«»«  was 

^''  I'mST"*?'  '*'  ^r*"'*"""  "^  ^•'•'^■•^'  ^•'«»«'»'-«'  ''«*««*• 
vflHia,  iVew  y«rMy,  and  Ntw  York— 

Ann?^^°T'f  i°°'"'  '""  *^*  ■^**  SUtea,  respectively  aasembled  at 
Annapolis,  humbly  beg  leave  to  report.  woiea  ai 

That  pursuant  to  their  several  appointmenU.  they  met  «t  An- 
napohs  m  the  State  of  Maiyl«,d,  on  the  eleventh  day  of  ipSmtr 
nstant,  aud  having  proceeded  to  .  Communication  of  their  ™™. 
they  found  that  the  States  of  New  York.  Pennsylvania,  and  vS^Z' 
had  m  substance,  and  nearly  in  the  same  te^.  authoriid  S^ 
speciive  Commissioner.  "  to  meet  «,ch  Commissioner,  m  werl  Z 
might  be.  appointed  b.  he  other  State,  in  the  Union  .tsn"  "rknd 
place  a.  should  be  agreed  upon  by  the  said  Commit  onen.  to  X  So 

relations  might  be  necewaiy  to  their  common  intere^    md  perma- 
nent  harmony,  and  to  report  to  the  several  States  such  an  Act  Sv^ 

ble'  LTnitSllat?  "'*'?  """"'"""^  ""'^^  '^  them  woSllT 

for  the  same."  '°      "*'*"  """'''"*'  '^'"'"^^y  ^  P«>vide 

That  the  State  of  Delaware,  had  given  similar  poweni  to  their 

£  vireTfTh'o:"'  *'''  '^^"""^  °°'^'  *"'*  '"^  AcT;^  Wd 
ZltH^    J  P''''*"'  "  «*l°^'^  *°  ^  reported  "  to  the  Unitec' 


1  DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

an  uniform  system  in  their  commercial  regulations  and  otTier  im- 
portant matters,  might  be  necessary  to  the  common  interest  and  per- 
manent harmony  of  the  several  States,  '  and  to  report  such  an  Act 
on  the  subject,  as  when  ratified  by  them  "  would  enable  the  United 
States  in  Congress  assembled,  effectually  to  provide  for  the  exigencies 
of  the  Union." 

That  appointments  of  Commissioners  have  also  been  made  by  the 
States  of  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Rhode  Island,  and  North 
Carolina,  none  of  whom  however  have  attended ;  but  that  no  informa- 
tion has  been  received  by  your  Commissioners,  of  any  appointment 
having  been  made  by  the  States  of  Connecticut,  Maryland,  South 
Carolina  or  Georgia. 

That  the  express  terms  of  the  powers  to  your  Commissioners  sup- 
posing a  deputation  from  all  the  States,  and  having  for  object  the 
Trade  and  Commerce  of  the  United  States,  Your  Commissioners  did 
not  conceive  it  advisable  to  proceed  on  the  business  of  their  mission, 
under  the  Circumstance  of  so  partial  and  defective  a  representation. 

Deeply  impressed  however  with  the  magnitude  and  importance  of 
the  object  confided  to  them  on  this  occasion,  your  Commissioners 
cannot  forbear  to  indulge  an  expression  of  their  earnest  and  unani- 
mous wish,  that  speedy  measures  may  be  taken,  to  effect  a  general 
meeting,  of  the  States,  in  a  future  Convention,  for  the  same,  and  such 
other  purposes,  as  the  situation  of  public  affairs,  may  be  found  to 

require. 

If  in  expressing  this  wish,  or  in  intimating  any  other  sentiment, 
your  Commissioners  should  seem  to  exceed  the  strict  bounds  of  their 
appointment,  they  entertain  a  full  confidence,  that  a  conduct,  dictated 
by  an  anxiety  for  the  welfare,  of  the  United  States,  will  not  fail  to 
receive  an  indulgent  construction. 

In  this  persuasion,  your  Commissioners  submit  an  opinion,  that 
the  Idea  of  extending  the  powers  of  their  Deputies,  to  other  objects, 
than  those  of  Commerce,  which  has  been  adopted  by  the  State  of 
New  Jersey,  was  an  improvement  on  the  oripnal  plan,  and  will  de- 
serve to  be  incorporated  into  that  of  a  future  Convention ;  they  are 
the  more  naturally  led  to  this  conclusion,  as  in  the  course  of  their 
reflections  on  the  subject,  they  have  been  induced  to  think,  that  the 
power  of  regulating  trade  is  of  such  comprehensive  extent,  and  will 
enter  so  far  into  the  general  System  of  the  foederal  government,  that 
to  give  it  efficacy,  and  to  obviate  questions  and  doubts  concerning  its 
precise  nature  and  limits,  may  require  a  correspondent  adjustment  of 
other  parts  of  the  Foederal  System. 

That  there  are  important  defects  in  the  system  of  the  Foederal 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787         li 

Govenunent  is  acknowledged  by  the  Acts  of  aU  those  States,  which 
have  concurred  m  the  present  Meeting;    That  the  defects,  upon  a 
closer  exanunation,  may  be  found  greater  and  more  numerous,  than 
even  these  acts  unply,  is  at  least  so  far  probable,  from  the  embarrass- 
ments  which  characterise  the  present  State  of  our  national  affairs 
foreign  and  domestic,  as  may  reasonably  be  supposed  to  merit  a  de-' 
liberate  and  candid  discussion,  in  some  mode,  which  will  unite  the 
Sentunents  and  Councils  of  all  the  States.    In  the  choice  of  the  mode 
your  Commissioners  are  of  opinion,  that  a  Convention  of  Deputies' 
from  the  diflferent  States,  for  the  special  and  sole  purpose  of  en- 
tering into  this  investigation,  and  digesting  a  plan  for  supplying 
such  defects  as  may  be  discovered  to  exist,   will  be  entitled   to 
a  preference  from  considerations,  which  wiU  occur,  without  being 
particularised.  ^^ 

Your  Commissioners  decline  an  enumeration  of  those  national 
ciKumstances  on  which  their  opinion  respecting  the  propriety  of  a 
future  Convention,  with  more  enlarged  powers,  is  founded;  as  it 
would  be  an  useless  intrusion  of  facts  and  observations,  most  of  which 
have  been  frequently  the  subject  of  public  discussion,  and  none  of 
which  can  have  escaped  the  penetration  of  those  to  whom  they  would 
m  this  instance  be  addressed.  They  are  however  of  a  nature  » 
serious  as  m  the  view  of  your  Commissioners  to  render  the  situa- 
tion  of  the  United  States  delicate  and  critical,  calling  for  an 
exertion  of  the  united  virtue  and  wisdom  of  aU  the  membeiv  of  the 
Confederacy. 

Under  this  impression.  Your  Commissioners,  with  the  most  re- 
spectful  deference,  beg  leave  to  suggest  their  unanimous  conviction 
that  It  may  essentially  tend  to  advance  the  interests  of  the  union,  if 
the  States,  by  whom  they  have  been  respectively  delegated,  would 
themselves  concur,  and  use  their  endeavours  to  procure  the  concur- 

m^t'-fp!,  f  r?':-^***''^  '°  **•"  appointment  of  Commissionem.  to 
meet  at  Philadelphia  on  the  second  Monday  in  May  next,  to  take  into 
consideration  the  situation  of  the  United  States,  to  devise  such  further 
provisions  as  shall  appear  to  them  necessary  to  render  the  constitu- 
t  on  of  the  Foederal  Government  adequate  to  the  exigencies  of  the 
Union;  and  to  report  such  an  Act  for  that  purpose  to  the  United 
States  in  Congress  assembled,  as  when  agreed  to,  by  them,  and  after- 
wards confirmed  by  the  Legislatures  of  every  State,  will  effectuaUy 
provide  for  the  same.  ^ 

Though  your  Commissioners  could  not  with  propriety  address 
these  observations  and  sentiments  to  any  but  the  States  they  have 
the  honor  to  Represent,  they  have  nevertheless  concluded  from  mo- 


lii         DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

tives  of  respect,  to  transmit  Copies  of  this  Report  to  the  United  States 
in  Congress  assembled,  and  to  the  executives  of  the  other  States. 

By  order  of  the  Commissioners 
Dated  at  Annapolis     1 
September  14th,  1786  / 

Resolved,  that  the  Chairman  sign  the  aforegoing  Report  in  be- 
half of  the  Commissioners. 

Then  adjourned  without  day— 

Egb!  Benson  I  New  York 

Alexander  Hamilton  j 


Abra:  Clark 
W»  Ch?  Houston 
J!  Schureman 

Tench  Coxe 

Oeo:  Read 
John  Dickinson 
Richard  Baasett 

Edmund  Randolph 
j;  Madison  J'. 
St  George  Tucker 


New  Jersey 


} 

Ivirgi 


PennaylTania 


Delawan 


Viiipiiia 


REPORT  OF  PROCEEDINGS 

In  CoaastBa.^ 

Wednesday  Feb?  21,  1787 

Congress  assembled  as  before. 

The  report  of  a  grand  com?*  consisting  of  Mr  Dane  W  Vamum 
W  S.  M.  Mitchell  M^  Smith  Ml  Cadwallader  Mr  Irwine  Mt  N. 
Mitchell  Mr  Forrest  W.  Grayson  Mr  Bloont  Mr  Bull  &  Mr  Few, 
to  whom  was  referred  a  letter  of  14  Septi  1786  from  J.  Dickinson 
written  at  the  request  of  Commissioners  from  the  States  of  Virginia 
Delaware  Pensylvania  New  Jersey  &  New  York  assembled  at  the 
City  of  Annapolis  together  with  a  copy  of  the  report  of  the  said 
commissioners  to  the  legislatures  of  th«  States  by  whom  they  were 
appointed,  being  an  order  of  the  day  was  called  up  &  ..iiich  is  con- 
tained in  the  following  resolution  viz 

"  Congress  having  had  under  consideration  the  letter  of  John 
Dickinson  esqr  chairman  of  the  Commissioners  who  assembled  at 
Annapolis  during  the  last  year  also  the  proceedings  of  the  said  com- 
miflsioners  and  entirely  coinciding  with  them  as  to  the  inefficiency  of 
the  federal  government  and  the  necessity  of  devising  such  farther 
provisions  as  shall  render  the  same  adequate  to  the  exigencies  of  the 
Union  do  strongly  recommend  to  the  difFerent  legislatures  to  send 
forward  delegates  to  meet  the  proposed  convention  on  the  second 
Monday  in  May  next  at  the  city  of  Philadelphia  " 

The  delegates  for  the  state  of  New  Yorit  thereupon  laid  before 
Congress  Instructions  which  they  had  received  from  their  constitu- 
ents, &  in  pursuance  of  the  said  instructions  moved  to  postpone  the 
farther  consideration  of  the  report  in  order  to  take  up  the  following 
proposition  to  wit 

"  That  it  be  recommended  to  the  States  composing  the  Union  that 
a  convention  of  representatives  from  the  said  States  respectively  be 

held  at on for  the  purpose  of  revising  the  Articles  of 

Confederation  and  perpetual  Union  between  the  United  States  of 
America  and  reporting  to  the  United  States  in  Congress  assembled 
and  to  the  States  respectively  such  alterations  and  amendments  of 
the  said  Articles  of  Confederation  as  the  represenUtives  met  in  such 

^^SJ^moi*  of  tht  Contmental  Congre*,,  Vol.  38   (manoKript),  Library  of 


liv      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1<87 

convention  shaU  judge  proper  and  necessary  to  render  them  adequate 
to  the  preservation  and  support  of  the  Union  " 

On  the  question  to  postpone  for  the  purpose  above  mentioned  the 
yeas  &  nays  being  required  by  the  delegates  for  New  York. 


Massachusetts 
Connecticut 
New  Yoric 
New  Jersey 

Pensylvania 

Delaware 
Maryland 
Virginia 

North  Carolina 

South  Carolina 

Georgia 


Mr.  King 
Mr.  Dane 
Mr.  Johnson 
Mr.  S.  M.  Mitchell 
Mr.  Smith 
Mr.  Benson 
Mr.  Cadwallader 
Mr.  Clarke 
Mr.  Schurman 
Mr.  Irwine 
Mr.  Meredith 
Mr.  Bingham 
Mr.  N.  Mitchell 
Mr.  Forert 
Mr.  Orayson 
Mr.  Madison 
Mr.  Blount 
Mr.  Hawkins 
Mr.  Bull 
Mr.  Kean 
Mr.  Huger 
Mr.  Parker 
Mr.  Few 
Mr.  Pierce 


►  ay 


i.«y 


.no 


.no 


}■ 


So  the  question  was  lost. 

A  motion  was  then  made  by  the  delegates  for  Massachusetts  to 
postpone  the  farther  consideration  of  the  report  in  order  to  take  into 
consideration  a  motion  which  they  read  in  their  place,  this  being 
agreed  to,  the  motion  of  the  delegates  for  Massachusetts  was  taken 
up  and  being  amended  was  agreed  to  as  follows 

Whereas  there  is  provision  in  the  Articles  of  Confederation  & 
perpetual  Union  for  making  alterations  therein  by  the  assent  of  a 
Congress  of  the  United  States  and  of  the  legislatures  of  the  several 
States ;  And  whereas  experience  hath  evinced  that  there  are  defects  in 
the  present  Confederation,  as  a  mean  to  remedy  which  several  of  the 
States  and  particularly  the  State  of  New  York  by  express  instructions 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787         Iv 

to  their  delegates  in  Congrew  have  auggested  a  oonvention  for  the 
porposea  expreaaed  in  the  following  resolation  and  auch  convention 
appearing  to  be  the  moat  probable  mean  of  eatabliahing  in  theae  atatea 
a  firm  national  government 

Resolved  that  in  the  opinion  of  Congreaa  it  ia  expedient  that 
on  the  second  Monday  in  May  next  a  Convention  of  delegates  who 
shall  have  been  appointed  by  the  aeveral  states  be  held  at  Philadel- 
phia for  the  sole  and  express  purpose  of  revising  the  Articles  of  Con- 
federation and  reporting  to  Congress  and  the  aeveral  legislatures 
such  alterations  and  proviaions  therein  as  shall  when  agreed  to  in 
Congress  and  confirmed  by  the  states  render  the  federal  constitu- 
tion adequate  to  the  exigaiciea  of  Govenuneat  ft  the  preservation 
of  the  Union. 


CREDENTIALS  OF  THE  MEMBERS  OP  THE  FEDERAL 
^  CONVENTION » 

Statb  op  New  HAMPSHnoi* 

e  Year  of  our  Lord  One  thousand  seven  hundred  and  Eighty 

WYiprpas  in  the  formation  oi  me  leuciiw  ^      '^    ^         -ui^  ;„  iViA 

ritnUlon  m  whiei  they  "W  '™™°^    ,  c.„_„  that  they  m«y 

ready  to  make  eirery  eonceainon  to  the  ■"'fs'.*™  "'"'' 

,Je,  .hleh  io«le.  a.d  "-•>  P"' ^-^ '^tj  ™*rS,,„  „,  Rep«. 
Be  rr  therefoee  enacted,  by  the  benate  ana  xx»u r_ 

— T^e  SUt.«  of  Virginia.  «-  Jersey    Pe^^^^^^^^^^ 

K"rVe^=•orc^oreS^a'ri"^^  im.  fonnaUy  authoH.in«  t.e 
Convention.  .  .  ^^    gt,te«  of  New  York,  South  Carolina, 

""*thi;^e  wLt'Sik'r^^n  and  wM  not  repre.ent«l  in  the  Federal  Con- 
'^°*l°5eprinted  fron.  Documentary  Hi^ory  of  ike  Constitution,  Vol.  I  (1894). 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OF  1787       Ivu 

aenUtivw  in  General  Coort  convened  that  John  Lakgdon,  John 
PiCKXBwa,  Nicholas  OoiMan  &  Bxnjamin  Wcbt  Esquius  be  and 
hereby  are  appointed  Comminionen,  they  or  any  two  of  them,  are 
hereby  authoriied,  and  empowered,  aa  Deputies  from  this  State  to 
meet  at  Philadelphia  aaid  Convention  or  any  other  place,  to  which 
the  Convention  may  be  adjourned,  for  the  purpoeee  aforesaid,  there 
to  confer  with  such  Deputies,  as  are,  or  may  be  appointed  by  the 
other  States  for  similar  purposes ;  and  with  them  to  discuss  and  de- 
cide upon  the  most  effectual  means  to  remedy  the  defects  of  our  fed- 
eral Union ;  and  to  procure,  and  secure,  the  enlarged  purposes  which 
it  was  intended  to  effect,  and  to  report  such  an  Act,  to  the  United 
States  in  Congress,  as  when  agreed  to  by  them,  and  duly  confirmed 
by  the  several  States,  will  effectually  provide  fo"  the  same. 
State  of  New  1  In  the  House  of  Beprcsentatives  June 
Hampshire     f  27*  1787. 


The  foregoing  Bill  having  been  read  a  third  time.  Voted  that  it  pass 
to  be  enacted. 

Sent  up  for  Concurrence 

John  Sparhawk  Speaker 

In  S^'.dte,  the  same  day — This  Bill  having  been  read  a  third 
time, — Voted  that  the  same  be  enacted. 

Jn®  Sullivan  President. 
Copy  Examined. 

F^  Joseph  Pbabson  Sec'.    (Seal  append*.) 


Commonwealth  of  Massachubmtb  * 

(Seal  Append*.)  By  His  Excellency  James  Bowdoin  Esquire 
Governor  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Massachusetts. 

To  the  Honorable  Francis  Dana,  Elbridge  Gerry,  Nathaniel  Qor- 
ham,  Rufus  King  and  Caleb  Strong  Esquires.    Greeting. 

Whereas  Congress  did  on  the  twenty  first  day  of  February  A"  D* 
1787,  Resolve  "  that  in  the  opinion  of  Congress  it  is  expedient  that 
on  the  second  Monday  in  May  next  a  Convention  of  Delegates  who 
shall  have  been  appointed  by  the  several  States  to  be  held  at  Phila- 
delphia for  the  sole  and  express  purpose  of  revising  the  Articles  of 
Confederation  and  reporting  to  Congress  and  the  several  Legislatures, 
such  alterations  and  provisions  therein  as  shall  when  agreed  to  in 
Congress,  and  confirmed  by  the  States  render  the  federal  Constitu- 


■  Reprinted  from  Do<mme»tari/  BUton/  of  the  Coiutttnttoit,  Vol.  I  (1894), 
pp.  11-12. 


Iviu      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

tion  adequate  to  the  exigencies  of  government  and  the  prewryation 
of  the  Union."  And  Whereaa  the  General  Court  have  conitituted 
and  appointed  you  their  Delegate*  to  attend  and  represent  this  Com- 
monwealth  in  the  said  proposed  Convention;  and  have  by  a  Resolu- 
tion of  thein  of  the  tenth  of  March  last,  requested  me  to  Commission 
you  for  that  purpose. 

Now  therefore  Know  Ye,  that  in  pursuance  of  the  resolutions 
aforesaid,  I  do  by  these  presents,  commisMon  you  the  said  Francis 
Dana,  Elbridge  Gerry  Nathaniel  Gorham,  Rufus  King  &  Caleb  Strong 
Esquires  or  any  three  of  you  to  meet  such  Delegates  as  m«y  be  ap- 
pointed by  the  other  o  any  of  the  other  States  in  the  Union  to  meet 
in  Convention  at  PhUadelphia  at  the  time  and  for  the  purposes 

In  Testimony  whereof  I  have  caused  the  PubUc  Seal  of  the  Com- 
monwealth aforesaid  to  be  hereunto  affixed. 

Given  at  the  Council  Chamber  in  Boston  the  Ninth  day  of 
April  A'  D?"  1787  and  in  the  Eleventh  Year  of  the  Inde- 
pendence of  the  United  States  of  America. 

James  Bowdoin 

By  His  Excellency's  Command 

John  Avbbt  Junl,  Secretary 

State  of  Connecticut* 

At  a  General  Assembly  of  the  State  of  Connecticut  in 
(Seal.)     America,  holden  at  Hartford  on  the  second  Thursday  of 
May.  Anno  Domini  1787. 

An  Act  for  appointing  Delegates  to  meet  in  a  Convention  of  the 
Stfites  to  be  held  at  the  City  of  PhUadelphia  on  the  second  Monday 
of  May  instant.  . 

Whereas  the  Congress  of  the  United  States  by  their  Act  of  the 
twenty  first  of  February  1787  have  recommended  that  on  the  second 
Monday  of  May  instant,  a  Convention  of  Delegates,  who  shall  have 
been  appointed  by  the  several  States,  be  held  at  Philadelphia  for  the 
sole  and  express  purpose  of  revising  the  Articles  of  Confedera. 

tion.  ,  ^  ^  .. 

Be  it  enacted  by  the  Governor,  Council  and  Representatives  in 
General  Court  Assembled  and  by  the  Authority  of  tho  same. 

That  the  Honorable  William  Samuel  Johnson,  Roger  Sherman, 
and  Oliver  Ellsworth  Esquires,  be  and  they  hereby  are  appointed 

'Reprinted  from  Documentary  BUtory  of  the  Con$tituHon,  Vol.  I  (1894), 
pp.  12-13. 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787       liz 

Delegates  to  attend  the  said  Convention,  and  are  requested  to  pro- 
ceed to  the  City  of  Philadelphia  for  that  pnrpoae  without  delay  j  And 
the  laid  Delegates,  and  in  ease  of  sickness  or  accident,  such  one  or 
more  of  them  as  shall  actually  attend  the  said  Convention,  is  and  ai« 
hereby  authorized  and  empowered  to  Represent  this  State  therein,  and 
to  confer  with  such  Delegates  appointed  hy  the  several  States,  for  the 
purposes  mentioned  in  the  said  Act  of  Congress  that  may  be  ptvsent 
and  duly  empowered  to  act  in  said  Convention,  and  to  discuas  upon 
such  Alterations  and  Provisions  agreeable  to  the  general  Principles 
of  Republican  Government  as  they  shall  think  proper  to  render  the 
federal  Constitution  adequate  to  the  exigencies  of  Government  and, 
the  preservation  of  the  Union;  And  they  are  further  directed,  pur- 
suant to  the  said  Act  of  Congress  to  report  such  alterations  and  pro- 
visions as  may  be  agreed  to  by  a  majority  of  the  United  States  rep- 
resented in  Conventi<m  to  the  Congress  of  the  United  States,  and  to 
the  General  Assembly  of  this  State. 

A  true  Copy  of  Record 
Exam" 
By  OioBOE  Wtllts  Sec'. 


Niw-ToRK* 

By  His  Excellency  George  Clinton  Esquire  Governor  of 
(Seal)      the  State  of  New  York  General  and  Commander  in  Chief 
of  all  the  Militia  and  Admiral  of  the  Navy  of  the  same. 
To  all  to  whom  these  Presents  shall  come 

It  is  by  these  Presents  certified  that  J(rfin  MoKeason  who  has  sub- 
scribed the  annexed  Copies  of  Resolutions  is  Cleric  of  the  Assembly 
of  this  State. 

In  Testimony  whereof  I  have  caused  the  Privy  Seal  of  the  said 
State  to  be  hereunto  affixed  this  Ninth  day  of  May  in  the 
Eleventh  Tear  of  the  Independence  of  the  said  State. 

G»>:  Clintok. 
State  of  New  ToA 

In  Assembly  February  28*  1787. 

A  Copy  of  a  Resolution  of  the  honorable  the  Senate,  delivered  by 
Mt  Williams,  was  read,  and  is  in  the  Words  following,  viz*. 

Resolved,  if  the  honorable  the  Assembly  concur  herein,  that 
three  Delegates  be  appointed  on  the  part  of  this  State,  to  meet 
such  Delegates  as  may  be  appointed  on  the  part  of  the  other 

'Reprinted  from  Documentary  Bittory  of  the  Comtitution,  Vol.  I  (1894), 
pp.  13-10. 


Ix         DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

StotM  respectively,  on  the  lecond  Monday  in  m»y  next,  it  Phila- 
delphia, for  the  sole  and  expreM  purpows  of  revising  the  Articlet 
of  Confederation,  and  r«porting  to  Congre«,  and  to  the  mv- 
eral  Legiriaturei,  mch  alteration*  and  Provirions  therein,  as  shall, 
when  agreed  to  in  Congress,  and  confirmed  by  the  several  States, 
render  the  federal  Constitution  adequate  to  the  Exigencies  of 
Government,  and  the  preservation  of  the  Union;  and  that  in  case  of 
such  concurrence,  the  two  Houses  of  the  Legislature,  wiU,  on  Tues- 
day next,  proceed  to  nominate  and  appoint  the  said  Delegates,  in  like 
manner  as  is  directed  by  the  Constitution  of  this  State,  for  nomi- 
nating and  appointing  Delegates  to  Congress. 

Resolved,  that  this  House  do  concur  with  the  honorable  the  Senate, 
in  the  said  Resolution. 

In  Assembly  March  6*  1787. 
Resolved,  that  the  Honorable  Robert  Yates  Esquire,  and  Alex- 
ander Hamilton  and  John  Lansing,  Junior  Esquires,  be,  and  they 
are  hereby  nominated  by  this  House.  Delegates  on  the  part  of  this 
State,  to  meet  such  Delegates  as  may  be  appointed  on  the  part  of  the 
other  States  respectively,  on  the  second  Monday  in  May  next,  at 
Philadelphia,  pursuant  to  concurrent  lUaolutions  of  both  Houses  of 
the  Legislature,  on  the  28""  Ultimo. 

Resolved,  that  this  House  will  meet  the  Honorable  the  Senate,  im- 
mediately,  at  such  place  as  they  shall  appoint,  to  compare  the  Lista 
of  Persons  nominated  by  the  Senate  and  Assembly  respectively,  as 
Delegates  on  the  part  of  this  State,  to  meet  such  Delegates  as  may 
be  appointed  on  the  part  of  the  other  States  respectively,  on  the  second 
Monday  in  May  next,  at  Philadelphia,  pursuant  to  concurrent  Resolu- 
tions, of  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature,  on  the  28'  IHtimo. 

Ordered  That  M5  N.  Smith  deliver  a  Copy  of  the  last  preceding 
Resolution,  to  the  Honorable  the  Senate. 

A  Copy  of  a  Resolution  of  the  Honorable  the  Senate,  was  deliv- 
ered by  MT  Vanderbilt,  that  the  Senate  will  immediately  meet  this 
House  in  the  Assembly  Chamber,  to  compare  the  Lists  of  Persons 
nominated  by  the  Senate  and  Assembly  respectively,  as  Delegates, 
pursuant  to  the  Resolutions  before  mentioned. 

The  Honorable  the  Senate  accordingly  attended  in  the  Assembly 
Chamber,  to  compare  the  Lists  of  Persons  nominated  for  Delegates, 
as  above  mentioned. 

The  list  of  Persons  nominated  by  the  Honorable  the  Senate,  were 
the  Honorable  Robert  Yates  Esquire,  and  John  Lansing  Junior,  and 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OF  1787       Ixi 

Alexander  H«inilt(ni  Eaqnine;  and  oa  eompariiiff  the  LiiU  of  tiw 
Penona  nominated  by  the  Senate  and  Aaaembly  reapeetivelx,  it  ap- 
peared that  the  aame  Penon*  were  nominated  in  both  Liata.  There- 
upon, Resolved  that  the  Honorable  Robert  Tatea,  John  Lanaing  Junior 
and  Alexander  Hamilton  Eaqoirea,  be,  and  thejr  are  hereby  de- 
clared doly  nominated  and  appointed  Delegatea,  on  the  part  of  thia 
State,  to  meet  inch  Delegates  aa  may  be  appointed  on  the  part  of 
the  other  States  respectively,  on  the  second  Monday  in  May  next,  at 
Philadelphia,  for  the  sole  and  express  purpose  of  revising  the  Ar- 
ticles (/f  Confederation,  and  reporting  to  Congress,  and  to  the  sev- 
eral Legislatures,  such  alterations  and  proviaions  therein,  as  shall, 
when  agreed  to  in  Congress,  and  confirmed  by  the  several  States, 
render  the  federal  Constitution  adequate  to  the  exigencies  of  Gov- 
ernment, and  the  preservation  of  the  Union. 

True  Extracta  from  the  Jonmala  of  the  Assembly 

John  WHuaos  Clk. 


Tbb  Stats  op  New  Jerset.* 

(Seal)  To  the  Honorable  David  Brearly,  William  Churchill 
Houston,  William  Patterson  and  John  Neilaon  Esquires.    Greeting. 

The  Council  and  Assembly  reposing  especial  trust  and  confidence 
in  your  integrity,  prudence  and  ability,  have  at  a  joint  meeting  ap- 
pointed yon  the  said  David  Brearley,  William  Churchill  Houston, 
William  Patterson  and  John  Heilson  EB(;aires,  or  any  three  of  you. 
Commissioners  to  meet  such  Commissioners,  aa  have  been  or  may  be 
appointed  by  the  other  States  in  the  Union,  at  the  City  of  Philadel- 
phia in  the  Commonwealth  of  Pensylvania,  on  the  second  Monday  in 
May  next  for  the  purpose  of  taking  into  Consideration  the  state  of 
the  Union,  aa  to  trade  and  other  important  objects,  and  of  devising 
such  other  Provisions  as  shall  appear  to  be  necessary  to  render  the 
Constitution  of  the  Federal  Government  adequate  to  the  exigencies 
thereof. 

In  testimony  whereof  the  Great  Seal  of  the  State  is  hereunto 
affixed.  Witness  William  Livingston  Esquire,  Governor,  Cap- 
tain General  and  Commander  in  Chief  in  and  over  the  State  of 
New  Jersey  and  Territories  thereunto  belonging  Chancellor  and 
Ordinary  in  the  same,  at  Trenton  the  Twenty  third  day  of 
November  in  the  Tear  of  our  Lord  One  thousand  seven  hnn- 

•  Reprinted  from  Documentary  BUtory  of  the  CotutitutUm,  Vol.  I  (1894), 
n>.  10-19. 


Izii 


DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


drcd  and  Eighty  rix  and  of  ouir  Sowreignty  and  Independent 

the  Eleventh. 

Wit:  LiviNoaTOii. 

By  Hia  Excellency '•  Command 

Bowes  Rno  Sec'. 

The  State  or  N«w  Jemby.  ,   •     n 

(Seal)  To  Hi«  Excollcnry  William  Llvingiton  and  th*"  Hon- 

orable Abraham  Clark  Eaquirea  Greeting. 
The  Council  and  Aaaembly  repoaing  eapecial  trort  and  Confidence 
in  your  integrity,  prudence  and  ability  have  at  a  joint  Meeting  a^p- 
pointed  You  the  «ud  William  Livingaton  •f«».Ab"ham  Clark  E^ 
^rea,  in  conjunction  with  the  Honorable  David  Brearley,  William 
Churchill  Houston  &  William  PatterK)n  Eaquirea,  or  any  three  ol 
you,  CommiMionera  to  meet  «uch  Commiamonen  aa  have  been  ap- 
iointed  by  the  other  State,  in  the  Union  at  the  City  of  Ph.ladelphm 
in  the  Commonwealth  of  Penaylvania  on  the  aecond  Monday  of  hia 
present  Month  for  the  purpoae  of  taking  into  conaideration  the  atate 
of  the  Union  aa  to  trade  and  other  important  Object-,  and  of  deviaing 
rach  other  Proviaions  aa  shall  appear  to  be  neceawry  to  render  the 
Constitution  of  the  federal  Government  adequate  to  the  exigenciea 

*^*"*'  in  Testimony  whereof  the  Great  Seal  of  the  State  ia  here- 
unto afBxed.  Witneaa  William  Livingston  Es.iuire,  Governor, 
Captain  General  and  Commander  in  Chief  in  and  over  the 
State  of  New  Jersey  and  Territoriea  thereunto  belonging  Chan- 
cellor  and  Ordinary  in  the  aame  at  Burlington  the  Eighteenth 
day  of  May  in  the  Year  ol  our  Lord  One  thousand  seven  hun- 
dred  and  Eighty  seven  and  of  our  Sovereignty  and  Inde- 
pendence the  Eleventh. 
*^  WiL:   LmNOSTOH 

By  His  Excellency's  Command 

Bowes  Reed  Sec*. 


The  State  op  New  Jerset. 

To  the  Honorable  Jonathan  Dayton  Esquire 

The  Council  and  Assembly  reposing  especial  trust  and  confidence 
in  your  integrity,  prudence  and  ability  have  at  a  joint  Meeting  ap- 
pointed You  the  said  Jonathan  Dayton  E«iuire.  m  '^^^i^^f^^'^'^^ 
His  Excellency  William  Livingston,  the  Honorable  D/Jid  Brearley 
William  Churchill  Houston,  William  Patterson  and  Abraham  Clark 
Esquires,  or  anv  three  of  you.  Commissioners  to  meet  such  Commia- 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  (    INVENTION  OP  1787     Iziii 

■ionen  w  have  been  appointed  by  the  other  States  in  the  Up'  ■"  it 
the  City  of  Philadelphia  in  the  Commonwealth  of  I'ensylvanio, 
purpoaea  of  taking  into  conaideration  the  atate  of  the  Union  m  •<» 
trade  and  other  important  objecta,  and  of  devilling  Huch  other  Pro- 
viiion  aa  ahall  appear  to  be  neceaary  to  render  the  Conatitution  of 
the  federal  Government  adequate  to  the  ezigenciea  thereof. 

In  Teatimony  whereof  the  Qreat  Seal  of  the  State  ia  hereunto 
affixed: — WitnesH  Robert  Lettia  Hooper  Eaquire,  Vice-Preai- 
dent,  Captain  General  and  Commander  in  Chief  in  and  over 
the  State  of  New  Jeraey  and  Territories  thereunto  belonging, 
Chancellor  and  Ordinary  in  the  lame  at  Burlington  the  fifth 
day  of  June  in  the  Year  of  our  Lord  One  thouaand  aeven  hun- 
dred and  Eighty  seven  and  of  our  Sovereignty  and  Inde- 
pendence the  Eleventh. 

Rob''  L.  Hoopn 
By  his  Honor's  Command 

Bowk  Rbd  Sec'. 

Penstlvanu  ' 

An  Act  appointing  Deputies  to  the  Convention  intended  to  be 
held  in  the  City  of  Philadelphia  for  the  purpose  of  revising  the  foederal 
Constitntion. 

Section  1-^  Whereas  the  General  Assembly  of  this  Commonwealth  tak- 
ing into  their  serious  Consideration  the  Repreaentations  heretofore 
made  to  the  Legislatures  of  the  several  States  in  the  Union  by  the 
United  States  in  Congress  Assembled,  and  also  weighing  the  difficul- 
ties under  which  the  Confederated  States  now  labour,  are  fully  con- 
vinced of  the  necessity  of  revising  the  federal  Constitution  for  the 
purpose  of  making  such  Alterationa  and  amendments  aa  the  exigencies 
of  our  Public  Affairs  require.  And  Whereas  the  Legislature  of  the 
State  of  Virginia  have  already  passed  an  Act  of  that  Commonwealth 
empowering  certain  Commissioners  to  meet  at  the  City  of  Philadel- 
phia in  May  next,  a  Convention  of  Commissioners  or  Deputies  from 
the  different  States ;  And  the  Legislature  of  this  State  are  fully  sensi- 
ble of  the  important  advantages  which  may  be  derived  to  the  United 
States,  and  every  of  them  from  co-opernting  with  the  CommonweaUh 
of  Virginia,  and  the  other  States  of  the  Confederation  in  the  said 
Design. 
Section  2"^  Be  it  enacted,  and  it  is  hereby  enacted  by  the  Representa- 


■  Reprinted  from  Documentary  Bitiory  of  the  Conttitvtion,  Vol.  I   (1894). 
pp.  19-23. 


IxiT      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

tives  of  the  Freemen  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Pemjylvia  in  Gen- 
eral Afflembly  met,  and  by  the  Authority  of  the  same  That  Thomas 
Mifflin,  Robert  Morris,  George  Clymer,  Jared  IngeraoU,  Thomas  Pitz- 
Simmons,  James  WUson  and  Govemem  Morria  Esquires,  are  hereby 
appointed  Deputies  from  this  State  to  meet  in  the  Convention  of  he 
Deputies  of  the  respective  States  of  North  America  to  be  held  at  the 
City  of  Philadelphia  on  the  second  day  of  the  Month  of  May  next ; 
And  the  said  Thomas  Mifflin,  Robert  Morris,  George  Clymer,  Jared 
Inirersoll  Thomas  Fitmmmons,  James  Wilson  and  Govemeur  Morns 
Esquires,'  or  any  four  of  them,  are  hereby  comitituted  and  appomted 
Deputies  from  this  State,  with  Powers  to  meet  such  Deputies  as  may  be 
appointed  and  authorired  by  the  other  States,  to  assemble  m  the  said 
Convention  at  the  City  aforesaid,  and  to  join  with  them  in  devinng, 
deliberating  on,  and  discussing,  all  such  alterations  and  further  Pro- 
vkLnl,  as  may  be  necessary  to  render  the  federal  Comrtitution  fully 
adequate  to  the  exigencies  of  the  Union,  and  in  «P«rt»n«  «"<*.  ^J* 
or  Acts  for  that  purpose  to  the  United  States  fCongr^  ^^"t' 
as  when  agreed  to  by  them  and  duly  confirmed  by  the  sever  J  States, 
will  eflfectually  provide  for  the  same.  ^    ._    ,  a  tko* 

Section  3^  And  be  it  further  enacted  by  the  Authority  aforesaid^  That 
in  case  any  of  the  ^  Deputies  hereby  nominated,  shall  happen  to  die, 
or  to  resign  his  or  their  said  Appointment  or  Appointments,  the 
Supreme  Executive  Council  shaU  be  and  hereby  are  empowered  and 
required,  to  nominate  and  appoint  other  Persons  or  Persons  m  hen  of 
Wm  or  them  so  deceased,  or  who  has  or  have  so  resigned  wh|*  ?«' 
son  or  Peraom.,  from  and  after  such  Nomination  and  Appointment, 
shall  be  and  hereby  are  declared  to  be  vested  with  the  same  Powers 
respectively,  as  any  of  the  Deputies  Nominated  and  Appoin^  by 
this  Act,  is  vested  with  by  the  same:  Provided  Always,  that  the 
Council  are  not  hereby  authorised,  nor  shall  they  make  any  such 
Nomination  or  Appointment,  except  in  Vacation  and  during  the 
Recess  of  the  General  Assembly  of  this  State. 


Signed  by  Order  of  the  House 
j  Seal  of  the  Laws 
j     of  Pensylvania 


\ 


Thomas  Miffun  Speaker 


Enacted  into  a  Law  at  Philadelphia  on  Saturday  December  the 
thirtieth  in  the  Year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and 

Eighty  six. 

Petkr  Zachart  Llotd 
Clerk  of  the  General  Assembly. 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787       Ixv 

I  Mathew  Irwin  Esquire  Master  of  the  Rolls  for  the  State  of  Pen- 
sylvania  Do  Certify  the  Preceding  Writing  to  be  a  true  Copy 
(or  Exemplification)  of  a  certain  Act  of  Assembly  lodged  in  my 
OflSce. 

In  Witness  whereof  I  have  hereunto  set  my  Hand  and 
(Seal)     Seal  of  Office  the  15  May  A.  D.  1787. 

Math^.  Ibwine 
M.  B. 

(Seal)  A  Supplement  to  the  Act  entitled  "  An  Act  appointing 
Deputies  to  the  Convention  intended  to  be  held  in  the  City  of  Phila- 
delphia for  the  purpose  of  revising  the  Federal  Constitution. 
Section  l'«  Whereas  by  the  Act  to  which  this  Act  is  a  Supplement, 
certain  Persons  were  appointed  as  Deputies  from  this  State  to  sit  in 
the  said  Convention:  And  Whereas  it  is  the  desire  of  the  General  As- 
sembly that  His  ExceUency  Benjamin  Franklin  Esquire,  President 
of  this  State  should  also  sit  in  the  said  Convention  as  a  Deputy  from 
this  State — therefore* 

Section  2«  Be  it  ena  1  and  it  is  hereby  enacted  by  the  Representa- 
tives of  the  Freemen  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Pensylvania,  in  General 
Assembly  met,  and  by  the  Authorit;.  of  the  same,  that  His  Excellency 
Benjamin  Franklin  Esquire,  be,  and  he  is  hereby,  appointed  and 
authorised  to  sit  in  the  said  Convention  as  a  Deputy  from  this  State 
in  addition  to  the  Persons  heretofore  appointed;  And  that  he  be,  and 
he  hereby  is  invested  with  like  Powers  and  authorities  as  aT«  invested 
in  the  said  Deputies  or  any  of  them. 

Signed  l^y  Order  of  the  House 

Thomas  Mdtlin  Speaker. 

Enacted  into  a  Law  at  Philadelphia  on  Wednesday  the  twenty 
eighth  day  of  March,  in  the  Tear  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  seven 
hundred  &  eighty  seven.  Pmra  Zachabt  Lloyd 

Clerk  of  the  General  Assembly. 

I  Mathew  Irwine  Esquire,  Master  of  the  Rolls  for  the  State  of 
Pensylvania  Do  Certify  the  above  to  be  a  true  Copy  (or  Exemplifica- 
tion) of  a  Supplement  to  a  certain  Act  of  Assembly  which  Supplement 
is  lodged  in  my  Office 

In  Witness  whereof  I  have  hereunto  set  my  Hand  and 

(Seal)      Seal  of  Office  the  15  May  A"  D.  1787. 

Math^  Ibwini 
M.  R. 


IxTi 


DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


Dklawabe  ^ 

His  ExceUency  Thomas  Collins,  Esquire,  President,  Cap- 
tain General,  and  Commander  in  Chid  of  the  Delaware 
State;  To  all  to  whom  these  Presents  shaU  come,  Greetmg. 
Know  Ye,  that  among  the  Laws  of  the  said  State,  passed 
(Seal)     by  the  General  Assembly  of  the  same,  on  the  third  day 
of  February,  in  the  Year  of  our  Lord  One  thousand  seven 
hundred  and  Eighty  seven,  it  is  thus  inroUed. 
In  the  Eleventh  Year  of  the  Independence  of  the  Delaware  State 
An  Act  appointing  Deputies  from  this  State  to  the  Convention 
proposed  to  be  held  in  the  City  of  Philadelphia  for  the  Purpose  of 
revising  the  Federal  Constitution.  . 

Whereas  the  General  Assembly  of  this  State  are  fully  convinced 
of  the  Necessity  of  revising  the  Federal  Constitution,  and  addmg 
thereto  such  further  Provisions,  as  may  render  the  same  more  ade- 
quate to  the  Exigencies  of  the  Union;  And  Whereas  the  Legislature 
of  Virginia  have  already  passed  an  Act  of  that  Commonwealth,  ap- 
pointing  and  authorizing  certain  Commissioners  to  meet,  at  the  City  of 
Philadelphia,  in  May  next,  a  Convention  of  Commissioners  or  Deputies 
from  the  different  States:  And  this  State  being  willing  and  desirous 
of  co-operating  with  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia,  and  the  other 
States  in  the  Confederation,  in  so  useful  a  design. 

Be  it  therefore  enacted  by  the  General  Assembly  of  Delaware,  that 
George  Read,  Gunning  Bedford,  John  Dickinson,  Robert  Bassett  and 
Jacob  Broom,  Esquires,  are  hereby  appointed  Deputies  from  this  State 
to  meet  in  the  Convention  of  the  Deputies  of  other  States,  to  be  held  at 
the  City  of  PhUadelphia  on  the  Second  day  of  May  next :  And  the  said 
George  Read,  Gunning  Bedford,  John  Dickinson,  Richard  Bassett  and 
Jacob  Broom,  Esquires,  or  any  three  of  them,  are  hereby  constituted  and 
appointed  Deputies  from  this  State,  with  Powers  to  meet  such  Deputies 
as  may  be  appointed  and  authorixed  by  the  other  States  to  assemble  in 
the  said  Convention  at  the  City  aforesaid,  and  to  join  with  them  in 
devising,  deliberating  on,  and  discussing,  such  Alterations  and  further 
Provisions  as  may  be  necessary  to  render  the  Foederal  Constitution 
adequate  to  the  Exigencies  of  the  Union ;  and  in  reportmg  such  Act  or 
Acts  for  that  purpose  to  the  United  States  in  Congress  Assembled,  as 
when  agreed  to  by  them,  and  duly  confirmed  by  the  several  States, 
may  effectually  provide  for  the  same:  So  always  and  Provided,  that 


PP 


'Reprinted  from  Documentary  Bittory  of  tite  ConttUution,  Vol.  I  (18»4), 
23-2R. 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OF  1787     Ixvu 

such  AlteraUoM  or  further  Provinona,  or  any  of  them,  do  not  extend 
to  that  part  of  the  Fifth  Article  of  the  Confederation  of  the  said 
States,  finally  ratified  on  the  first  day  of  Mareh,  in  the  Year  One 
thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  one,  which  declares  that  "  in 
determining  Quertions  in  the  United  States  in  Congress  Assembled 
each  State  shall  have  one  Vote." 

And  be  it  enacted,  that  in  Case  any  of  the  said  Deputies  hereby 
nominated,  shaU  happen  to  die,  or  to  resign  his  or  their  Appointment 
the  President  or  Commander  in  Chinf  with  the  Advice  of  the  Privy' 
Council,  in  the  Becess  of  the  General  Assembly,  is  hereby  authorized 
to  supply  such  Vacancies 

Passed  at  Dover,  j  Signed  by  Order  of  the  House  of  Assembly 
_  ,  ^ ,_        f  John  Cook,  Speaker 

February  3- 1787.   )  Signed  by  Order  of  the  Council 

Geo  Cbaqhead,  Speaker. 

AU  and  singular  which  Premises  by  the  Tenor  of  these  Presents  I 
have  caused  to  be  Exemplified.  In  Testimony  whereof  I  have  hereunto 
subscribed  my  Name,  and  caused  the  Great-Seal  of  the  said  State  to  be 
affixed  to  these  Presents,  at  New  Castle  the  Second  day  of  April  in  the 
Year  of  our  Lord  One  thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  seven  and 
in  the  Eleventh  Year  of  the  Independence  of  the  United  States  of 
America 

^^^  Tho"  Collins 

Ja  Booth  Sec'. 


Mabtlano.* 

An  Act  for  the  Appointment  of,  and  conferring  Powers  in  Deputies 
from  this  State  to  the  foederal  Convention. 

Be  it  enacted  by  the  General  Assembly  of  Maryland,  That  the  Hon- 
orable James  M«Hemy,  Daniel  of  Saint  Thomas  Jenifer,  Daniel  Carroll 
John  Francis  Mercer  and  Luther  Martin  Esquires,  be  appointed  and 
authorised  on  behalf  of  this  State,  to  meet  such  Deputies  as  may  be 
appomted  and  authorised  by  any  other  of  the  United  States  to  as- 
semble m  Convention  at  Philadelphia  for  the  purpose  of  revising  the 
Fo-deral  System,  and  to  join  with  them  in  considering  such  Alterations 
and  further  Provisions  as  may  be  necessary  to  render  the  Posderal 
Constitution  adequate  to  the  Exigencies  of  the  Union  and  in  reporting 
such  an  Act  for  that  purpose  to  the  United  States  in  Congress  Assem- 


pp.  2Mf.''°'**  '■*"  ^'«'«*«»««rir  BUtorg  of  the  Conttitution,  Vol.  I 


(1894). 


.-__.v*^ 


^    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

;;:-rr ^A^t^ -rj"  r^^^^^  °'  -^^  <"-•' 

Assembly  of  this  State. 


By   the   Senate   May  26.   1787. 
Read  and  Assented  to 
By  Order  J.  Dorsey  Clk. 
True    Copy   from   the   Original 
J.  DoBSEY  Clk.  Senate. 


By    the     House     of     Delegates 

May  26*  1787. 
Read  and  Asented  to 
By  Order  W"  Harwood  Clk. 
True   Copy    from   the   Original 
W"  Habwood  Clk  Ho  Del. 


W.  Smallwood. 
VmoiNiA  ^ 

;*r  to  The  Ycr  o.  our  Lord  .»  thou».d  «.»  huudred 

reporting  the  means  of  enablrns  ^^^^^^^JJ^ve  represented 
J  the  Commercial  ^A-tJle^^o^of1hf  S^  System  to  all 
the  necessity  of  extending  *^«^;r7.hrt  Deputies  for  that  purpose  be 

which  was  preferable*  to  a  d'««"«^«"  °' * J?.;^^^^^^^^  Ure  them 

it  might  be  too  much  interrupted  byJ^Bor^na^^^^  ^^^^^^^  ^^ 

and  where  it  would  besides  be  depm^  oj  ^^^  ^^„,ti,„tion  or  Laws 

^ndry  Individuals  who  are  d^^^^^J^^^^^^^  circumstances  from  a 

of  parti-ular  States  or  ^^^^^^J^J^he  0 Lei^l  .Xssembly  of  this 

?o:::raitrj?^;inr^^^^ 

"•  ^  lie  origin.!  law  r«>ds  "  which  seem*  preferable." 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787      Ixix 

eracy  as  wtll  as  reflecting  on  the  alarming  representations  made  from 
time  to  time  by  the  United  States  in  Congress  particularly  in  their 
Act  of  the  fifteenth  day  of  February  last  can  no  longer  doubt  that 
the  Crisis  is  arrived  at  which  the  good  People  of  America  are  to  de- 
cide the  solemn  question  whether  they  will  by  wise  and  magnanimous 
Eflforts  reap  the  just  fruits  of  that  Independence  which  they  have  so 
gloriously  acquired  and  of  that  Union  which  they  have  cemented  with 
80  much  of  their  common  Blood,  or  whether  by  giving  way  to  un- 
manly Jealousies  end  Prejudices  or  to  partial  and  transitory  Inter- 
ests they  will  renounce  the  auspicious  blessings  prepared  for  them 
by  the  Revol-nion,  and  furnish  to  its  Enemies  an  eventual  Triumph 
over  those  by  whose  virtue  and  valor  it  has  been  accomplished:  And 
Whereas  the  same  noble  and  extended  policy  and  the  same  fraternal 
and  affectionate  Sentiments  which  originally  determined  the  Citizens 
of  this  Commonwealth  to  unite  with  their  Bretheren  of  the  other 
States  in  establishing  a  Pcederal  Government  cannot  but  be  Felt  with 
equal  force  now  as  motives  to  lay  aside  every  inferior  consideration 
and  to  concur  in  such  farther  concessions  and  Provisions  as  may  be 
necessary  to  secure  the  great  Objects  for  which  that  Government  was 
instituted  and  to  render  the  United  States  as  happy  in  peace  as  they 
have  been  glorious  in  War    Be  rr  therefore  enacted  by  the  General 
Assembly  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia  that  seven  Commissioners 
be  appointed  by  joint  Ballot  of  both  Houses  of  Assembly  who  or  any 
three  of  them  are  hereby  authorized  as  Deputies  from  this  Common- 
wealih  to  meet  such  Deputies  as  may  be  appointed  and  authorized  by 
other  States  to  assemble  in  Convention  at  Philadelphia  as  above  recom- 
mended and  to  join  with  them  in  devising  and  discussing  all  such 
Alterations  and  farther  Provisions  as  may  be  necessary  to  render  the 
Foederal  Constitution  adequate  to  the  Exigencies  of  the  Union  and  in 
reporting  such  an  Act  for  that  purpose  to  the  United  States  in  Con- 
gress as  when  agreed  to  by  them  and  duly  confirmed  by  the  several 
States  will  effectually  provide  for  the  same.    And  be  rr  pubtheb  en- 
acted that  in  case  of  the  death  of  any  of  the  said  Deputies  or  of  their 
declining  their  appointments  the  Executive  are  hereby  authorized  to 
supply  such  Vacancies.    And  the  Gtovemor  is  requested  to  transmit 
forthwith  a  Copy  of  this  Act  to  the  United  States  in  Congress  and  to 
the  Executives  of  each  of  the  States  in  the  Union. 

John  Jones  Speaker  of  the  Senate 
3'SDed  Joseph   Prentis,  Speaker  of  the 

House  of  Delegates. 
A  true  Copy  from  the  Inrollment 

John  Becklet  Clk  House  Del*. 


Izz 


DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


In  the  House  of  Delegatea 

Monday  the  4*  of  December  1786. 

The  House  according  to  the  Order  of  the  Day  proceeded  by  joint 
Ballot  with  the  Senate  to  the  appointment  «' Seven  Deputia.  from 
this  Commonwealth  to  a  Convention  proposed  to  be  held  m  the  Ci^ 
of  Philadelphia  in  May  next  for  the  P^'^ose  of  reviamg  the  F<Bd«^d 
Constitution,  and  the  Members  having  prepared  Ticket.  wUh  the  °™ 
of  the  Persom,  to  be  appointed,  and  deposited  the  saiiw  in  the  BaUrt- 
Soxes,  MI  Corbin,  W  Matthews  M^  David  Stuart,  M-.  Qforge  Nicholas 
^  Schard  Lee.  M'.  WiUs.  W  Thomas  Smith,  M^  0«'*^^^'^d  ^ 
TurberviUe  were  nominated  a  Committee  to  meet  a  Committee  from 
the  Senate  in  the  Conference-Chamber  and  jomtly  '"*»' them  to  ex- 
amine  the  BaUot-boxes  and  report  to  the  House  on  whom  the  Ma. 
iority  of  VotM  should  faU.    The  Committee  then  withdrew  and  after 
^^e  tL  returned  into  the  House  and  reported  that  Ije  Committee 
had,  according  to  order,  met  a  Committee  from  the  Senate  in  the 
Coiierence-Chamber,  and  jointly  with  them  exanuned  the  Ballot-boxes 
and  found  a  majority  of  Votes  in  favor  of  George  Washington, 
Patrick  Henry,  Edmund  Randolph,  John  Blair,  James  Madison, 
George  Mason  and  George  Wythe  Esquires. 

Extract  from  the  Journal, 

John  Bbcklbt  Clk  House  Del! 

j  Attest  JoHK  Becklbt  ) 
I        Clk.  H.  Del!  ) 

In  the  House  of  Senators 

Monday  the  4*  of  December  1786. 

The  Senate  according  to  the  Order  of  the  Day  proceeded  by  joint 
Ballot  with  the  House  of  Delegates  to  the  Appointment  of  Seven 
Deputies  from  this  Commonwealth  to  a  Convention  proposed  to  be  held 
in  the  City  of  K  ladelphia  in  May  next  for  the  purpose  of  revising  the 
Foederal  Constitution,  and  the  Members  having  prepw^d  Tickets  with 
the  names  of  the  Persons  to  be  appointed,  and  deposited  the  same  in  the 
Ballot-boxes,  M:  Anderson,  M'.  Nelson  and  M'  Lee  were  nomma  ed 
a  Committee  to  meet  a  Committee  from  the  House  of  Delegates  in  the 
Conference-Chamber  and  joinly  with  them  to  examine  the  Ballot- 
boxes  and  report  to  the  House  on  whom  the  Majority  of  Votes  should 
fall     The  Committee  then  withdrew  and  after  some  time  returned 
into  the  House  and  reported  that  the  Committee  had,  according  to 
order,  met  a  Committee  from  the  House  of  Delegates  in  the  Confer- 
enoe-Chamber.  and  jointly  with  them  examined  the  Ballot-boxes  and 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OF  1787      l«i 

found  a  Majority  of  Votes  in  favor  of  George  Waahington,  Patrick 
Hen^  Edmond  Randolph.  John  Blair,  Jame.  Madison  Lr^e  Miln 
and  George  Wythe  Esquires.  v«"n{e  inason 

Extract  from  the  Journal 

""Tbbook  Clk  S.  ''^  ^"^  ^"^'  ^'  ^ 

ViBonru  TO  wit 

(Seal)         ^  ^l  ^""^'fy  ■'Id  "alfe  known,  to  all  whom  it  may  Con- 

n  1      *     /^?u-   J^^  '^°^  ^^^^^  ^°>'*'  »  Clerk  of  the  House  of 
Delegates  for  th«  Commonwealth,  and  the  proper  Officer  for  attesting 
the  proce«im^  of  the  General  Assembly  of  the  said  Commonwealth 
And  that  full  F«th  and  Credit  ought  to  be  given  to  all  things  att^ted 
by  the  said  John  Beekley  Esquire,  by  Virtue  of  hU  Office  aforesaid 
Given  under  my  hand  as  Governor  of  the  Commonwealth  of 
Virginia  and  under  the  Seal  thereof,  at  Richmond  this  fourth 
day  of  May,  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and  Eighty  seven. 

Edm:  Bandolph 

ViBOINU  TO  WIT. 

(Seal)      I  do  hereby  Certify,  that  Patrick  Heniy,  Esquire,  one 
of  the  seven  Commissionere  appointed  by  joint  ballot  of  both  Houses 
of  Assembly  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia,  authorized  as  a  Deputy 
therefrom  to  meet  such  Deputies  as  might  be  appointed  and  author- 
ized  by  other  States  to  assemble  in  Philadelphia  and  to  join  with  them 
m  devising  and  discussing  all  such  Alterations  and  further  Provisions 
as  might  be  necessary  to  render  the  Foederal  Constitution  adequate  to 
the  exigencies  of  the  Union ;  and  in  reporting  such  an  Act  for  that  pur- 
pose to  the  United  States  in  Congress,  as  when  agreed  to  by  them  and 
duly  confimed  by  the  several  States,  might  effectually  provide  for  the 
same,  did  decline  his  appointment  aforesaid;  and  thereupon  in  pur- 
suance of  an  Act  of  the  General  Assembly  of  the  said  Commonwealth 
intituled     An  Act  for  appointing  Deputies  from  this  Commonwealth 
to  a  Convention  proposed  to  be  held  in  the  City  of  Philadelphia  in 
aiay  next,  for  the  purpose  of  revising  the  Fcsderal  Constitution  "  I 
do  hereby  with  the  advice  of  the  Council  of  State,  supply  the  said 
\  aeancy  by  nominating  James  M'Clurg,  Esquire,  a  Deputy  for  the 
rurposes  aforesaid. 

Given  under  my  Hand  as  Governor  of  the  said  Commonwealth 
and  under  the  Seal  thereof  this  second  day  of  May  in  the  Tear 
of  our  Lord  One  thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  seven. 

Edm  :  BiinwLPH 


iTTii 


DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


State  of  North  Cabouna  » 

To  the  Honorable  Alexander  Martin  Esquire,  Greeting. 
Wh^Ls  our  General  A»embly,  in  their  late  ««8ion  holden  at 
Pavet"e^  by  adjournment,  in  the  Month  of  January  lart,  did  by 
2  al  t  of  The  Senate  and  Houae  of  Common,  el-t  Rjch«d  C- 
well  Alexander  Martin,  William  Richardson  Davie,  Richard  Dobb. 
SpaiBht'^  Willie  Jonea.  E«,uires,  Deputies  to  attend  a  Convention 
of  Sates  from  the  several  United  States  of  America,  proposed  to 
t  S^he  City  of  Philadelphia  in  May  next  for  the  purpo«,  of 
rAviainir  the  Foedcral  Constitution.  .    .      ^        j 

Te  drtherfore  by  these  Presents,  nominate,  Commissionate  and 
.„n!^nt  voi  the  ^d  Au«ANDEB  Martin,  one  of  the  Deputies  for  and 
rrbSif  t:reet  with  our  other  Deputies  at  P^iU^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
first  day  of  May  next  and  with  them  or  any  two  of  t^^m  to '^onfer  witn 
^h  Deputies  as  may  have  been  or  shall  be  appointed  by  the  other 
S»L  for  the  purpose  aforesaid:  To  hold,  exercise  and  enjoy  the 
ar^ntment^^o^eXwith  all  Powers.  Authorities  and^EmoUi^^ 
r^„  »o«,«  h«.lonffin«r  or  in  any  wise  appertaining.  You  conlorming, 
Tn  Iveil^UnLTthe  let  ol  our  said  Assembly  under  which  you 

*"  "'^^ts  Richard  Caswell  Esquire,  our  Governor  Captain- 
Gerr^and  Commander  in  Chief,  under  his  Hand  and  o^ 
Q«at  Seal  at  Kinston  the  24--  day  of  February  in  the  XI  Tear 
of  our  Independence  ^^^^  ^^^^^  ^^^^^^ 

A"  D*  1787. 

By  His  Excellency's 
Command. 

Winston  Caswell  P.  Sec* 


T>iP  State  of  North-Carolina  ,  . 

To 'he  Honorable  William  Richardson  Davib  Esquire  Gmting^ 
mereas  our  General  Assembly  in  their  late  session  holden  at 
Payette  viUe.  by  adjournment,  in  the  Month  of  J*°««7^/"*' f  ^^ 
Totn  -ballot  of  the  S  ^te  and  House  of  Commons,  ^'^l^^"%^^ 
wpS  Alexander  Martin,  William  Richardson  Davie,  Richard  Dobbs 
iLht  rw^meine^^    Deputies  te  attend  a  Convention  ^f 

-     .Reprinted  from  Documentary  BUtory  of  the  Con.titutio.,  Vol.  I   (18M). 

pp.  32  38. 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787   Ixziii 

Delegate*  from  the  leveral  United  States  of  America  propoaed  to  be 
held  in  the  City  of  Philadelphia  in  May  next  for  the  purpoae  of  i«> 
Tiaing  the  Fcederal  Constitution. 

We  do  therefore,  by  theie  Presents,  nominate  Commissionate  and 
appoint  yon  the  said  Willuh  Richardson  Davie  one  of  the  Deputies 
for  and  in  our  behalf  to  meet  with  our  other  Deputies  at  Philadelphia 
on  the  first  day  of  May  next  and  with  them  or  any  two  of  them  to 
confer  with  such  Deputies  as  may  have  been  or  shall  be  appointed  by 
the  other  States  for  the  Purposes  aforesaid  To  hold,  exercise  and  enjoy 
the  said  appointment  with  all  Powers  authorities  and  emoluments  to 
the  same  belonging  or  in  any  wise  appertaining,  Tou  conforming,  in 
every  instance,  to  the  Act  of  our  said  Assembly  under  which  you  are 
appointed. 

Witness  Richard  Caswell  Eaqnire,  our  Governor,  Captain* 
General  and  Commander  in  Chief  under  his  Hand  and  our 
Great  Seal  at  Kinston  the  24*''  day  of  February  in  the  ZI.  Year 
of  our  Independence,  Anno.  Dom.  1787 : 

BP  (Seal)  Caswbx 
By  Hia  Excellency's  Command 

Winston  Caswill  P.  Sec^ 


The  State  of  North  Cabouna 

To  the  Hcmorable  Richard  Dobbt  Spaight  Esquire,  Greeting. 

Whkreas  our  (General  Assembly  in  their  late  session  holden  at 
Fayette-ville,  by  adjournment,  in  the  month  of  January  last,  did 
elect  you  the  said  Richard  Dobbs  Spaight  with  K^hard  Caswell,  Alex- 
ander Martin,  William  Richardson  Davie,  and  Willie  Jones  Esquires, 
Deputies  to  attend  a  Convention  of  Delegates  from  the  several 
United  States  of  America  proposed  to  be  held  in  the  City  of 
Philadelphia  in  May  next,  for  the  purpose  of  revising  the  Foederal 
Constitution. 

T.'e  do  therefore,  by  these  Presents  nominate,  Commissionate  and 
appoint  you  the  said  Richabd  Dobbs  Spaioht  one  of  the  Deputies  for 
and  in  behalf  of  us  to  meet  with  our  other  Deputies  at  Philadelphia 
on  the  first  day  of  May  next  and  with  them  or  any  two  of  them  to 
confer  with  such  Deputies  as  may  have  been  or  shall  be  appointed  l^ 
the  other  States  for  the  purpose  aforesaid.  To  hold,  exercise  and 
enjoy  the  said  Appointment  with  all  Powers,  Authorities  and  Emol- 
uments to  the  same  incident  and  belonging  or  in  any  wise  appertain- 
ing. Tou  conforming  in  every  instance,  to  the  Act  of  our  said  As- 
sembly under  which  yuu  are  appointed. 


IxxiT    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

WiTNBsa  Richard  Canrell  Esqnire,  our  Oorcrnor  Captain- 
Oeneral  and  Commander  in  Chief  undor  hi»  Hand  and  our 
Great  Seal  at  Kinston  the  14""  day  of  April  in  the  XI*  Year 
of  our  Independence  Anno.  Dom.  1787. 

B?  (Seal)  Caswiix 

By  Hia  Excellency 'a  Command 

WiNBTON  CA8WILL  P.  SeC» 


State  of  North-Cabouna 

Hia  Excellency  Richard  CaaweU  Eaquire  Governor,  CapUm 
General  and  Commander  in  Chief  in  and  over  the  State  afore- 
said. 
To  all  to  whom  these  PreaenU  shall  come 

Greeting. 
Whxbkas  by  an  Act  of  the  Oeneral  Assembly  of  the  said  State 
passed  the  sixth  day  of  January  last,  entitled  "  An  Act  for  appoint- 
ing  Deputies  from  thia  SUte,  to  a  Convention  proposed  to  be  held  in 
the  City  of  Philadelphia  in  May  next,  for  the  purpose  of  Revising  the 
Foederal  Constitution  "  among  other  things  it  is  Enacted  "  That  five 
Commissioners  be  appointed  by  joint-ballot  of  both  Houaes  of  Assem- 
bly who,  or  any  three  of  them,  are  hereby  authcriaed  aa  Deputies  from 
this  State  to  meet  at  Philadelphia  on  the  first  day  of  May  next,  then 
and  there  to  meet  and  confer  with  such  Deputies  as  may  be  appointed 
by  the  other  States  for  similar  purposes,  and  with  them  to  discuss  and 
decide  upon  the  most  effectual  means  to  remove  the  defects  of  our 
Foederal  Union,  and  to  procure  the  enlarged  Purposes  which  it  waa 
intended  to  effect,  and  that  they  report  such  an  Act  to  the  General 
Assembly  of  this  State  aa  when  agreed  to  by  them,  will  effectually 
provide  for  the  same."    And  it  is  by  the  said  Act,  further  Enacted, 
"  That  in  case  of  the  death  or  resignation  of  any  of  the  Deputies  or 
of  their  declining  their  Appointments,  His  Excellency  the  Governor 
for  the  Time  being,  is  hereby  authorized  to  supply  such  Vacancies." 
And  Whereas,  in  consequence  of  the  siud  Act,  Richard  Caswell,  Alex- 
ander Martin,  William  Richardson  Davie,  Richard  Dobbs  Spaight  and 
Willie  Jones  Esquires,  were  by  joint-ballot  of  the  two  Houses  of  As- 
sembly,  elected  Deputies  for  the  purposes  aforesaid:  And  Whereas 
the  said  Richard  Caswell  hath  resigned  his  said  Appointment  as  one 
of  the  Deputies  aforesaid. 

Now  KNOW  Ye  that  I  have  appointed  and  by  these  Presents  do 
appoint  the  Honorable  William  Blount  Esquire,  one  of  the  Deputies 
to  represent  this  State  in  the  Convention  aforesaid,  in  the  room  and 
stead  of  the  aforesaid  Richard  Caswell,  hereby  giving  and  granting 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787     Ixxr 

to  the  uid  Wiixum  Blount  the  ume  Power*,  Privileses  and  Emolu- 
menta  which  the  uid  Richard  Caswell  would  have  been  vested  with  or 
entitled  to,  had  he  continued  in  the  Appointment  aforeaaid. 

Given  under  my  Hand  and  the  Qreat  Seal  of  the  State,  at 
Kinston,  the  2"^  day  of  April  Anno  Dom  1787.  And  in  the 
Eleventh  Tear  of  American  Independence. 

Ri".  (Seal)  Ciawnx 
By  Hit  Excellency '■  Command 

Winston  CAawsLb  P.  Sec' 


State  of  Nobth-Cabolina 

His  Excellency  Richard  Caawell  Esquire,  Governor,  Captain- 
General  and  Commander  in  Chief,  in  and  over  the  State  afore- 
said. 
To  all  to  whom  these  Presents  shall  come 

Greeting. 
Whereas  by  an  Act  of  the  General  Assembly  of  the  said  State, 
paased  the  sixth  day  of  January  last,  entitled  "  An  Act  for  appoint- 
ing Deputies  from  this  State,  to  a  Convention  proposed  to  be  held 
in  the  City  of  Philadelphia  in  May  next  for  the  purpose  of  revising 
the  Foederal  Constitution  "  among  other  things  it  is  enacted  "  That 
five  Commissionen  be  appointed  by  joint-ballot  of  both  Houses  of  As- 
sembly, who,  or  any  three  of  them,  are  hereby  authorised  as  Deputies 
from  this  State,  to  meet  at  Philadelphia  on  the  first  day  of  May  next, 
then  ami  there  to  meet  and  confer  with  such  Deputies  aa  may  be  ap- 
pointed by  the  other  States  for  similar  purposes  and  with  them  to 
discuss  and  decide  upon  the  most  effectual  means  to  remove  the  defects 
of  our  Pcederal  Union,  and  to  procure  the  enlarged  purposes,  which 
it  was  intended  to  effect,  and  that  they  report  such  an  Act  to  the  Gen- 
eral Assembly  of  this  State,  aa  when  agreed  to  by  them,  will  effectually 
provide  for  the  same."  And  it  is  by  the  said  Act,  further  enacted 
"  That  in  case  of  the  death  or  resignation  of  any  of  the  Depu- 
ties, or  their  declining  their  Appointments  His  Excellency  the 
Governor  for  the  Time  being  is  hereby  i^uthorixed  to  supply  such 
vacancies." 

And  Whereas  in  consequence  of  the  said  Act  Richard  Caswell, 
Alexander  Martin  William  Richardson  Davie,  Richard  Dobbs  Spaight 
and  Willie  Jones  Esquires,  were  by  joint-ballot  of  y*  two  Houses  of 
Assembly  elected  Deputies  for  the  purposes  aforesaid.  And  Whereas 
the  said  Willie  Jones  hath  declined  his  Appointment  as  one  of  the 
Deputies  aforesaid 

Now  KNOW  Tb  that  I  have  appointed  and  by  these  Presents  do 


texTi     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  COXVENTION  OP  1787 

appoint  the  Honorable  HuoH  Willuhmn  Eequire,  one  of  the  Depu- 
ties to  Rpreeent  this  Stste  in  the  Convention  aforesaid  in  the  room 
and  sti-ad  of  the  aforesaid  Willie  Jones,  hereby  (riving  and  granting 
to  the  said  High  Williamson  the  same  Powers,  Privileges  and  eniol- 
umenU  which  the  said  Willie  Jones  would  have  been  vested  with  and 
entitled  to  had  he  acted  under  the  Appointment  aforesaid. 

Given  under  my  Hand  and  the  Great  Seal  of  the  State  at 
Kinston  the  third  day  of  April  Anno  Dom.  1787.  and  in  the 
Eleventh  Year  of  American  Independence 

Ri"  (Seal)  Caswill 
By  His  Excellency's  Command 

Dallam  Caswell  Pro 
Secretary 


State  of  South  Cabouna* 

By  His  Excellency  Thomas  Pinckney  Esquire,  Ooremor  and 
Commander  in  Chief  in  and  over  the  State  aforesaid. 
To  the  Honorable  John  Rutledge  Esquire 

Greeting. 

By  Virtue  of  the  Power  and  Authority  in  me  vested  by  the  Legia- 
lature  of  this  State  in  their  Act  passed  the  eighth  day  of  March  last 
I  do  hereby  Commission  Tou  the  said  John  Rutledge  aa  one  of  the 
Deputies  appointed  from  this  State  to  meet  such  IVmities  or  Commia- 
sioners  as  may  be  appointed  and  authorixed  by  otuer  of  the  United 
States  to  assemble  in  Covention  at  the  City  of  Philadelphia  in  the 
Month  of  May  next,  or  aa  soon  thereafter  aa  may  be,  and  to  join  with 
such  Deputies  or  Commissioners  (they  being  duly  authorized  and  em- 
powered) in  devising  and  discussing  all  such  Alterations,  Clauses, 
Articles  and  Provisions,  as  may  be  thought  necessary  to  render  the 
Frederal  Constitution  entirely  adequate  to  the  actual  Situation  and 
future  good  Government  of  the  confederated  States,  and  that  you 
together  with  the  said  Deputies  or  Commissioners  or  a  Majority  of 
them  who  shall  be  present  (provided  the  State  be  not  represented  by 
less  than  two)  do  join  in  reporting  such  an  Act,  to  the  United  States 
in  Congress  Assembled  as  when  approved  and  agreed  to  by  them,  and 
duly  ratified  and  confirmed  by  the  several  States  will  eflfectually  pro- 
vide for  the  Exigencies  of  the  Union. 

Given  under  my  hand  and  the  Great  Seal  of  the  State  in  the 

■Reprinted  from  Documentary  BUtory  of  the  Con*titution,  Vol.  I   (18M), 
pp.  38-42. 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787  luvU 

City  of  Chtrierton,  thk  tenth  day  of  April  in  the  Year  of  our 
Lord,  One  thouaand  aeven  hundred  and  eighty  aeven  and  of  the 
Soverei^ty  and  Independence  of  the  United  SUtea  of  America 
the  Eleventh. 

THOiua  (Seal.)  Pwokmbt. 
By  hia  Excellency 'a  Command 

PcTER  Fbkneau  Secretary. 


•  1'     iir\  O 

Siati-  .lore*  . 


.■•1, 


and 


ciiUi'i  '],./  of  ^^itI.    aat, 
I'^r^'.»V,  .^  orn  (  .'  the 


State  of  South  Cabolina 

By  Hia  Excellency  Thomaa  Pincki 
Commander  in  Chief  in  and  over  t<K 
To  the  Honorable  Charles  Pinckney  Er  iv, 

Oreetin' 
By  Virtue  of  the  Power  and  Aut'""i 
lature  of  thla  State  in  their  Act  paw   '  'be 
I  do  hereby  Commiaaion  you  the  lai       nnrio 

Deputies  appointed  from  this  State  to  n.ot  i.ii  t'c}>..ti.N  or  «;«n- 
miasioners  aa  may  be  appointed  and  auth  irii.i<i  .  o  ucr  of  fr.  United 
Stotes  to  assemble  in  Convention  at  the  Citv  ..'  "V.i:.»d.  \.i\ia  'a  the 
Month  of  May  next,  or  aa  soon  thereafter  aa  na  nci  t .     ,a  with 

such  Deputiea  or  Commiaiioners  (they  being  dujy  authorized  and  em- 
powered) in  deviaing  and  discussing  all  such  Alterationa,  Clauaes, 
Articles  and  Provisions,  aa  may  be  thought  necesaary  to  render  the 
Foderal  Constitution  entirely  adequate  to  the  actual  Situation  and 
future  good  Ooveniment  of  the  confederated  States,  and  that  you 
together  with  the  aaid  Deputies  or  Commissioners  or  a  Majority  of 
them  who  shall  be  present  (provided  the  State  be  not  represented  by 
less  than  two)  do  join  in  reporting  such  an  Act,  to  the  United  Statea 
in  Congress  Assembled  aa  when  approved  and  agreed  to  by  them  and 
duly  ratified  and  confirmed  by  the  several  SUtea  will  effectually  pro- 
Tide  for  the  Exigencies  of  the  Union. 

Given  under  my  hand  and  the  Great  Seal  of  the  SUte  in  the 
City  of  Charleston  this  Tenth  day  of  April  in  the  Year  of 
our  Lord  One  thousand  seven  hundred  and  Eighty  Seven  and 
of  the  Sovereignty  and  Independence  of  the  United  Statea  of 
America  the  Eleventh. 

Thoxas  (Seal.)  PmoKNir 
By  His  Excellency's  Command 

PKm  Fbxnxav  Secretary. 


Ixxviii  DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

State  of  South-Cabouna. 

By  Uia  Excellency  Thomas  Pinckney  Esquire,  Governor  and 
Commander  in  Chief  in  and  over  the  State  aforesaid. 
To  the  Honorable  Charles  Cotesworth  Pinckney  Esquire, 

Greeting. 
By  Virtue  of  the  Power  and  Authority  in  me  vested  by  the  Legis- 
lature of  this  State  in  their  Act  passed  the  eighth  day  of  March  last, 
I  do  hereby  Commission  you  the  said  Charles  Cotesworth  Pinckney  as 
one  of  the  Deputies  appointed  from  this  State  to  meet  such  Deputies 
or  Commissioners  as  may  be  appointed  and  authorized  by  other  of 
the  United  States  to  assemble  in  Convention  at  the  City  of  Philadel- 
phia in  the  Month  of  May  next  or  as  soon  thereafter  as  may  be,  and 
to  join  with  such  Deputies  or  Commissioners  (they  being  duly  author- 
ized and  empowered)  in  devising  and  discussing  all  such  Alterations, 
Clauses,  Articles  and  Provisions  as  may  be  thought  necessary  to  ren- 
der the  Foederal  Constitution  entirely  adequate  to  the  actual  Situation 
and  future  good  Government  of  the  Confederated  States,  and  that 
you  together  with  the  said  Deputies  or  Commissioners,  or  a  Majority 
of  them,  who  shall  be  present  (provided  the  State  be  not  represented 
by  less  than  two)  do  join  in  reporting  such  ^n  Act  to  the  United 
States  in  Congress  Assembled  as  when  approved  and  agreed  to  by 
them  and  duly  ratified  and  confirmed  by  the  several  States  will 
effectually  provide  for  the  Exigencies  of  the  Union. 

Given  under  my  hand  and  the  Great  Seal  of  the  State  in  the 
City  of  Charleston  this  tenth  day  of  April  in  the  Year  of  our 
Lord  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  seven  and  of  the 
Sovereignty  and  Independence  of  the  United  States  of  America 
the  Eleventh. 

Thomas  (Seal.)  Pincknet. 
By  His  Excellency's  Command 

Peteb  Frensau  Secretary. 


State  of  South-Cabouma. 

By  His  Excellency  Thomas  Pinckney  Esquire,  Governor  and 
Commander  in  Chief  in  and  over  the  State  aforesaid. 
To  the  Honorable  Pierce  Butler  Esquire 

Greeting. 
By  Virtue  of  the  Power  and  authority  in  me  vested  by  the  Legis- 
lature of  this  State  in  their  .\ct  passed  the  eighth  day  of  March  last, 
I  do  hereby  Commission  you  the  said  Pierce  Butler,  as  one  of  the 
Deputies  appointed  from  this  State  to  meet  such  Deputies  or  Com- 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OF  1787    Ixxix 

missioners  as  may  be  appointed  and  authorized  by  other  of  the  United 
States  to  assemble  in  Convention  at  the  City  of  Philadelphia  in  the 
Month  of  May  next,  or  as  soon  thereafter  as  may  be  and  to  join  with 
such  Deputies  or  Commissioners  (they  being  duly  authorised  and  em- 
powered) in  devising  and  discussing,  all  such  Alterations,  Clauses, 
Articles  and  Provisions  as  may  be  thought  necessaiy  to  render  the 
FcBderal  Constitution  entirely  adequate  to  the  actual  Situation  and 
future  good  government  of  the  confederated  Statea,  and  that  you 
together  with  the  said  Deputies  or  Commissioners  or  a  Majority  of 
them  who  shall  be  present  (provided  the  State  be  not  represented 
by  less  than  two)  do  join  in  reporting  such  an  Act,  to  the  United 
States  in  Congress  Assembled  as  when  approved  and  agreed  to  by 
them  and  duly  ratified  and  confirmed  by  the  several  States  wiU 
effectually  provide  for  the  Exigencies  of  the  Union 

Given  under  my  hand  and  the  Great  Seal  of  the  State  in  the 
City  of  Charieston  this  Tenth  day  of  April  in  the  Year  of  our 
Lord  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and  Eighty  seven,  and  of  the 
Sovereignty  and  Independence  of  the  United  States  of  America 
the  Eleventh. 


By  His  Excellency's  Command 

Piter  Prbneau  Secretary. 


Thomas  (Seal.)  Pincknbt. 


State  op  Gboroia  ' 

The  State  of  Georgia  by  the  grace  of  God,  free,  Sovereign  and  In- 
dependent.  * 

To  the  Honorable  William  Pierce  Esquire 

Whereas  you  the  said  William  Pieree,  are  in  and  by  an  Ordinance 
of  the  General  Assembly  of  our  said  State  Nominated  and  Appointed 
a  Deputy  to  represent  the  same  in  a  Convention  of  the  United  States 
to  be  assembled  at  Philadephia,  for  the  Purposes  of  revising  and  dis- 
cussing  all  mch  Alterations  and  farther  Provisions  as  may  be  neces- 
of  The  uSon "  *^'  ^"^""^  Constitution  adequate  to  the  Exigencie. 

Ton  are  therefore  hereby  Commissioned  to  proceed  on  the  duties 
required  of  you  in  virtue  of  the  said  Ordinance 

WrTNEss  our  trusty  and  well  beloved  Oeorge  Mathews  Esquire 
our  Captain  General,  Governor  and  Commander  in  Chief,  un- 

pp.  l^!^^  '"""  Documentary  Butory  of  the  Con,Htutio»,  Vol.  I   (18M). 


Ixxx      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

O  der  his  hand  and  our  Great  Seal  at  Augusta  this  Seventeenth 
S  day  of  April  in  the  Tear  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  seven  hun- 

9  2  dred  and  eighty  seven  and  of  our  Sovereignty  and  Independ- 

i.  ?  ence  the  Eleventh. 

*        By  His  Honor's  Command. 
J.  Milton.  Sec*. 


The  State  of  Georgia  by  the  grace  of  God  free,  Sovereign  and  In- 
dependent. 

To  the  Honorable  Willum  Pew  Esquire. 

Whxbeas  you  the  said  William  Few.  are  in  and  by  an  Ordinance 
of  the  General  Assembly  of  our  said  State  Nominated  and  appointed 
a  Deputy  to  represent  the  same  in  a  Convention  of  the  United  States 
to  be  assembled  at  Philadelphia,  for  the  Purposes  of  devising  and 
discussing  all  such  Alterations  and  farther  Provisions  as  may  be 
necessary  to  render  the  Poederal  Constitution  adequate  to  the  Exigen- 
cies of  the  Union. 

You  are  therefore  hereby  Commissioned  to  proceed  on  the  duties 
required  of  you  in  virtue  of  the  said  Ordinance. 

Q  Witness  our  trusty  and  well-beloved  Geobob  Mathews  Esquire 
8  our  Captain-General,  Governor  and  Commander  in  Chief,  un- 
^  der  his  hand  and  our  Great  Seal  at  Augusta,  this  seventeenth 
^  df»y  of  April  in  the  Year  of  our  Lord  One  thousand  seven 
f:  hundred  and  eighty  Seven,  and  of  our  Sovereignty  and  In- 
g  dependence  the  Eleventh. 
I  By  His  Honor's  Command 
1  J.  Milton  Sec? 

The  State  of  Georgia  by  the  grace  of  God,  free,  Sovereign  and  In- 
dependent. 

To  the  Honorable  William  Houstoun  Esquire 

WH35REAS  you  the  said  WUliam  Houstovn,  are  in  and  by  an  Or- 
dinance  of  the  General  A«embly  of  our  said  State  nominated  and 
appointed  a  Deputy  to  represent  the  same  in  a  Convention  of  the 
United  States  to  be  assembled  at  Philadelphia,  for  the  purposes  of 
devising  and  discussing  all  such  Alterations  and  farther  Provisions 
as  may  be  necessary  to  render  the  Foederal  Constitution  adequate  to 
the  Exigencies  of  the  Union. 

You  are  therefore  hereby  Commissioned  to  proceed  on  the  Duties 
required  of  you  in  virtue  of  the  said  Ordinance. 


ANTECEDENTS  OF  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787    Ixxxi 

p  Witness  our  trusty  and  weU-beloved  George  Mathbws  Es- 

o  quire,    our   Captaui-General,   Governor  and   Commander   of 

S  CMff.  under  his  hand  and  our  Great  Seal  at  Augusta,  this 

g,  seventeenth  day  of  April  in  the  Year  of  our  Lord  One  thou- 

^  sand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  seven,  and  of  our  Sovereignty 

p  and  Independence  the  Eleventh. 

3  By  his  Honor's  Command 
a  J.  Milton.  Sec', 

Georoia. 

By  the  Honorable  Gboboe  Mathiws  Eaqaire,  Captain  General, 
Governor  and  Commander  in  Chief,  in  and  over  the  said  State 
aforesaid. 
To  all  to  whom  these  Presents  shall  come  Greeting. 
Know  Ye  that  John  Milton  Esquire,  who  hath  Certified  the  an- 
nexed  Copy  of  an  Ordinance  intitled  "  An  Ordinance  for  the  ap- 
pointment of  Deputies  from  this  State  for  the  purpose  of  revising 
the  Foederal  Constitution  "—is  Secretary  of  the  said  State  in  whose 
Office  the  Archives  of  tlie  same  are  deposited.    Therefore  all  due  faith, 
Credit  and  Authority  are  and  ought  to  be  had  and  given  the  same. 
O    In  Testimony  whereof  I  have  hereunto  set  my  hand  and  caused 
P     the  Great  Seal  of  the  said  State  to  be  put  and  affixed  at 

2  Augusta,  this  Twenty  fourth  day  of  April  in  the  Year  of  oar 
g_  Lord  One  thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  Seven  and  of 
•^    our  Sovereignty  and  Independence  the  Eleventh. 

p  By  his  Honor's  Command 

3  J.  Milton  Sec» 


An  Ordinance  for  the  appointment  of  Deputies  from  this  State  for 
the  purpose  of  revising  the  Fcederal  Constitution. 

Be  rr  Ordained  by  the  Representatives  of  the  Freemen  of  the 
State  of  Georgia  in  General  Assembly  met  and  by  the  Authority  of 
the  same,  that  Willum  Few,  Abraham  Baldwin,  William  Pierce, 
George  Walton  Willum  Houstoun  and  Nathaniel  Pendleton  Es^ 
QUIRES,  Be,  and  they  are  hereby  appointed  Commissioners,  who,  or  any 
two  or  more  of  them  are  hereby  authorized  as  Deputies  from  this 
State  to  meet  such  deputies  as  may  be  appointed  and  authorized  by 
other  States  to  assemble  in  Convenfion  at  Philadelphia  and  to  join 
with  them  in  devising  and  discussing  all  such  Alterations  and  farther 
Provisions  as  may  be  necessary  to  render  the  Fmderal  Constitution 
adequate  to  the  exigencies  of  the  Union,  and  in  reporting  such  an  Act 


i^^^i  DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

for  that  purpose  to  the  United  States  in  Congress  Assembled  as  when 
agreed  to  by  them,  and  duly  confirmed  by  the  several  States,  will 
effectually  provide  for  the  same.  In  case  of  the  death  of  any  of  the 
said  Deputies,  or  of  their  declining  their  appointments,  the  Executive 
are  hereby  authorized  to  supply  such  Vacancies. 
By  Order  of  the  House 

(signed)     W"  Gibbons  Speaker. 
Augusta  the  10  February  1787. 
Georgia. 

Secretary's  OflBce 
The  above  is  a  true  Copy  from  the  Original  Ordinance  deposited 
in  my  OflSce. 

J:  Milton  See*. 
Augusta  ) 
.     24  AprU  1787  ) 


LIST  OP  DELEGATES  APPOINTED  BY  THE  STATES  REP 
RESENTED  IN  THE  PEDEEAL  COJ^S «     ^' 


From 
New  Hampshire 


Massachusetts. 


Rhode  Island. 
Connecticut. 


New  Torit. 
New  Jersey. 


Pem^ylvania. 


1.  John  Langdon, 
John  Pickering, 

2.  Nicholas  Oilman, 
Benjamin  We»t. 
Francis  Dana, 
Elbridge  Qeny, 
Nathaniel  Gforham, 
Rufus  King, 
Caleb  Stroi^, 
[No  appointment.] 
Wm.  Sam.  Johnson, 
Roger  Sherman, 
Oliver  Elsworth, 
Robert  Yates, 
Alexander  Hamilton, 
John  Lanaing, 
William  Livingston, 
David  Brearley, 
William  C.  Houston, 

10.  William  PattBMon, 
John  Neiltun. 
Abraham  Clark. 

11.  Jonathan  Dayton. 

12.  Benjamin  Franklin, 

13.  Thomaa  MiBin, 

14.  Robert  Morris, 

15.  George  Clymer, 

16.  Thomas  Fitzsimau, 

17.  Jared  Ingersoll, 


3. 
4. 


5. 
6. 


8. 
9. 


Attended 
July  23,  1787 

July  23, 


May  29, 
May  28, 
May  25, 
May  28, 

June  2, 
May  30, 
May  29, 
May  25, 

do. 
June    2, 
June    5, 
ilay  25, 

do. 

io. 


June  21, 
May  28, 

do. 
May  25, 
May  28, 
May  S, 
May  28, 


(1819),  pp.  13-16.  '  **"   *'•*«».   J<*"    Quinjy   Adanu,    Editor 

Izxziii 


Ixxxiv    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


From 

Attended 

18.  Jamea  Wilson, 

May  25, 

19.  Gouvemeur  Morris, 

do. 

Delaware. 

20.  George  Read, 

do. 

21.  Gunning  Bedford,  jr. 

May  28, 

22.  John  Dickinson, 

do. 

23.  Richard  Basset, 

May  25, 

24.  Jacob  Broom, 

do. 

Maryland. 

25.  James  M' Henry, 

May  29, 

26.  Daniel  of  St.  Thomas  Jenifer, 

June    2, 

27.  Daniel  Carroll, 

July    9, 

John  Francis  Mercer, 

Aug.    6, 

Luther  Martin, 

June    9, 

yirginia. 

28.  George  Washington, 

May  25, 

Patrick  Henry, 

(declined.) 

Edmund  Randolph, 

May  25, 

29.  John  Blair, 

do. 

30.  James  Madison,  jr 

do. 

George  Mason, 

do. 

George  Wythe, 

do. 

James  M'Clurg,  (in  the  room 

of 

P.  Heniy) 

do. 

^  rtt.     arolma. 

Richard  Caswell, 

(resigned.) 

Alexander  Martin, 

May  25, 

William  R.  Davie, 

do. 

31.  William  Blount,  (in  the  room 

of 

R.  CasweU) 

June  20, 

Willie  Jones, 

(declined.) 

32.  Richard  D.  Spaight, 

May  25, 

33.  Hugh  Williamson,  (in  the  room 

of  W.  Jones) 

May  25, 

South  Carolina. 

34.  John  Rutledge, 

do. 

35.  Charles  C.  Pinckney, 

do. 

36.  Charles  Pinckney, 

do. 

37.  Pierce  Butler, 

do. 

Georgia. 

38.  Willinm  Few, 

do. 

39.  Abraham  Baldwin, 

June  11, 

William  Pierce, 

May  31, 

Oeorge  Wc^on. 

William  Houstoun, 

June    1, 

Nathaniel  Pendleton. 

ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OF  1787    Ixxxr 
Member,  who  .ttended.  but  did  not'ii."  tieConirt/tu'tion:::::    18 


MAJOR  WILLIAM  PIERCE 

Charactees  in  tue  Convention  of  the  States  Held  at 
Phil^vdelphia,  May  1787  * 


From  New  Hampshieb. 

Jn?  Langdon  Esqt  and  Xiehl  Oilman  Esquire. 

Mr  Langdon  is  a  Man  of  considerable  fortune,  possesses  a  liberal 
mind,  and  a  good  plain  understanding.— about  40  years  old.' 

Mr  Oilman  is  modest,  genteel,  and  sensible.  There  is  nothing  bril- 
liant or  striking  in  his  character,  but  there  is  something  respectable 
and  worthy  in  the  Man.— about  30  years  of  age. 

From  Massachusetts. 

Ruf us  King,  Nat'  Oorham,  Gerry  and  Jn?  Strong '  Esquires. 

M;  King  is  a  Man  much  distinguished  for  his  eloquence  and  great 
parliamentary  talents.  He  was  educated  in  Massachusetts,  and  is  said 
to  have  good  classical  as  well  as  legal  knowledge.  He  has  served  for 
throe  years  in  the  Congress  of  the  United  States  with  great  and  de- 
served applause,  and  is  at  this  time  high  in  the  confidence  and  ap- 
probation of  his  Country-men.  This  Oentleman  is  about  thirty  three 
yi-ars  of  age,  about  five  feet  ten  Inches  high,  well  formed,  an  hand- 
some face,  with  a  strong  expressive  Eye,  and  a  sweet  high  toned  voice. 
In  his  public  speaking  there  is  something  peculiarly  strong  and  rich 
in  his  expression,  clear,  and  convincing  in  his  arguments,  rapid  and 
irresistible  at  times  in  his  eloquence  but  he  is  not  always  equal.  His 
action  is  natural,  swimming,  and  graceful,  but  there  is  a  rudeness  of 
manner  sometimes  arccmpanying  it.  But  take  him  tout  en  semhk,  he 
may  with  propriety  be  ranked  among  the  Luminaries  of  the  present 

Mr  Oorham  is  a  :VIerchant  in  Boston,  high  m  reputation,  and  much 
in  the  esteem  of  his  Country-men.    He  is  a  Man  of  verj-  good  sense. 


'  Text  and  footnot.s  r.printed  from  Thf  Ameriratt  Hiitorical  Rffiftr,  Vol. 
Ill  (1898),  pp.  .125-334.  Major  Pierce's  sketches  of  hU  fellow  memt>er8  were 
printed  in  tb<-  Rmini  from  a  manuscript  found  amonf?  his  papers. 

»Pierc<'8  sUtcments  of  age,  throughout  the  p.-per,  are  only  approximately 
correct. 

•  Caleb  Strong. 

Lxxxri 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787    Ixnrii 

but  not  much  impwved  in  hi.  eduction.    He  is  eloquent  and  .^y  in 
pubUc  debate,  but  has  nocfaing  fwhionable  or  elefani  «tyle  -all 

he  aun.  at  ia  to  convince,  and  where  he  faila  it  neve  ^  hi.  aacU- 

5*^     w!°  *^^*™*^  *'^'  '•*''  °°  ^"^  *-  °«>"  P~*. '       3  and  fulL 

^A       J^^^***"*  •*'  ^*'°«^'  "'^  **»"«  y««  •  Member  of  that 

.^K.       ^"I^  "  ■'*"*  *^  y-"  ^  •«•'  ""»•'  l««y.  -uid  ha.  « 
a?reable  and  pleasing  manner.  ^.  -uu  u«  « 

Mr  Gerry 'H  character  i.  marked  for  integrity  and  penereranee 
He  »  a  hesitating  and  laboriou.  .peaker,-po«e.L  a  grSrSeJ^^f 
confidence  and  goea  extensively  into  all  «,bject.  that  he  speluTon. 
without  respect  to  elegance  or  flower  of  diction.  He  i.  connected  and 
»metime.  clear  m  his  argument.,  conceive,  well,  and  cheriAes  as  hi. 
first  virtae.  a  love  for  his  Country.  Mr  Gerry  i.  very  much  of  a 
Gentlemaa  m  h«  principles  and  manner.;-he  ha.  been  engaged  in 
the  mer«mtUe  line  and  >.  a  Man  of  property.  He  is  about ITVear. 
or  age.  ' 

Mr  Strong  i«  a  Lawyer  of  some  eminence,— he  ha.  received  a  Uberal 
education  and  has  good  connection,  to  recommend  him.  As  a  Speaker 
he  »  feeble,  and  without  confidence.  This  Gent?  is  about  thirty  five 
years  of  age,  and  greatly  in  the  esteem  of  hi.  CoUeagues. 

FbOM  CONNKmCtJT. 

Sam.'  Johnson,  Roger  Sherman,  and  W.  Elsworth '  Ewjuirea. 

Dr  Johnson  is  a  character  much  celebrated  for  his  legal  knowledge  • 
he  IS  said  to  be  one  of  the  first  classic  in  America,  and  cerUdS 
possesses  a  very  strong  and  enlightened  understanding.  ^^' 

As  an  Orator  in  my  opinion,  there  is  nothing  in  him  that  warrants 
he  high  reputation  which  he  has  for  public  speaking.  There  is  some- 
thing  m  the  tone  of  hi.  voice  not  pleaang  to  the  Ear.-but  he  is 
e  oquent  and  clear.-always  abounding  with  informaUon  and  in- 
struction.  He  was  once  employed  a.  an  Agent  for  the  State  of  Con. 
nee  icut  to  state  her  claim,  to  certain  landed  territory  before  the 
Bntish  House  of  Common.;  this  Office  he  di«harged  with  »  much 
^gnity,  and  made  such  an  ingenious  di.pUy  of  his  powew,  that  he  laid 
the  foundation  of  a  reputation  which  will  probably  lartinuch  longer 
tha^  h,s  own  hfe.   Dr  Johnson  is  about  sixty  ye.„  of  age,  po««Jtte 

LJlt    .     '^'■'  *"**  ^^"^  •ffeotionate  rtyle  of  addre«  with  which 
ne  accosts  his  acquaintance. 

AP  Sherman  exhibits  the  oddest  shaped  character  I  ever  remember 
'OMitr  ElUworth^  '  ' 


baxviii    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

to  have  met  with.  He  is  awkward,  un-meaning,  and  unaccountably 
strange  lu  his  manner.  But  in  his  train  of  thinking  there  ia  lomething 
regular,  deep,  and  eomprehenaive ;  yet  the  oddity  of  hia  addreaa,  the 
Tulgarisma  that  accompany  hia  public  apeaking,  and  that  atrange  new 
England  cant  which  runa  through  hia  puUic  as  well  aa  hii  private 
speaking  make  everything  that  ia  connected  with  him  groteaque  and 
laughable ;— and  yet  he  deservea  infinite  praise, — no  Man  haa  a  r>etter 
Heart  or  a  clearer  Head.  If  he  cannot  embelliah  he  can  furnish 
thoughts  that  are  wise  and  nsefol.  He  is  an  able  politician,  and  ex* 
tremely  artful  in  accomplishing  any  particular  object; — it  is  re- 
marked  that  he  seldom  fails.  I  am  told  he  aita  on  the  Bench  in  Con- 
necticut, and  is  very  correct  in  the  diachnrfrc  of  his  Judicial  functions. 
In  the  early  part  of  his  life  he  was  a  Shoe-maker ;— but  despising  the 
lowness  of  his  condition,  he  turned  Almanack  maker,  and  so  pro- 
gressed upwards  to  a  Judge.  He  haa  been  several  years  a  Member 
of  Congress,  and  discharged  the  duties  of  his  OflHce  with  honor  and 
credit  to  himself,  and  advantage  to  the  State  he  represented.  He  ia 
ftbout  60. 

Mt  Elsworth  is  a  Judge  of  the  Supreme  Court  in  Connecticut  j— he 
is  a  Gentleman  of  a  clear,  deep,  and  copious  understanding ;  eloquent, 
and  connected  in  public  debate;  and  always  attentive  to  his  duty.  He 
is  very  happy  in  a  reply,  and  choice  in  selecting  such  parts  of  his  ad- 
versary's arguments  as  he  finds  make  the  strongest  impressions, — 
in  order  to  take  oflf  the  force  of  them,  so  as  to  admit  the  power  of  his 
own.  MT  Elsworth  is  about  37  years  of  age,  a  JIan  much  respected  for 
his  integrity,  and  venerated  for  his  abilities. 

From  Npw  York. 

'Alexander  Hamilton,  Yates,  and  W.  Lansing »  Esquires. 

Col?  Hamilton  is  deservedly  celebrated  for  his  talents.  He  is  a 
practitioner  of  the  Law,  and  reputed  to  be  a  finished  Scholar.  To  a 
dear  and  strong  judgment  he  unites  the  ornaments  of  fancy,  and 
whilst  he  is  able,  convincing,  and  engaging  in  his  eloquence  the  Heart 
and  Head  sympathize  in  approving  him.  Yet  there  is  something  too 
feeble  in  his  voice  to  bo  equal  to  the  strains  of  oratory; — it  is  my 
opinion  that  he  is  rather  a  convincing  Speaker,  that  [than]  a  blazing 
Orator.  Col?  Hamilton  requires  time  to  think,— he  enquires  into 
every  part  of  his  subject  with  the  searchings  of  phylosophy,  and  when 
he  comes  forward  he  comes  highly  charged  with  interesting  matter, 
there  is  no  skimming  over  the  surface  of  a  subject  with  him,  he  must 


*  John  Ijinsinvt. 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OF  1787       Uxxix 

■ink  to  the  bottom  to  lee  what  foundation  it  mfs  on.-IIii  langtum 
B  not  alwajr.  equal,  •ometime.  didactic  Uke  Bolingbrokc 'i.  at  other, 
ight  and  tnppmg  like  Stem'..  Hi,  eloquence  i.  not  m  defua.v.  aa 
to  tnfle  with  the  Mnaei,  but  he  ramblea  jnat  enooffh  to  strike  and  keep 
up  the  attention.  He  i.  about  33  yean  old.  of  .mall  .tature.  and  lean. 
Hi.  manner,  are  tinctured  with  .tiffne...  and  ^metime.  with  a  decree 
of  vanity  that  is  highly  diMgreable.  ^^^ 

Mr  Yate.  i.  Mid  to  be  an  able  Judge.  He  i«  a  Man  of  great  legal 
abilitie..  but  not  di.i.nguirf.ed  m  an  Orator.  Some  of  hi.  Enemie. 
.ay  he  i.  „  anti-federal  Man.  but  I  di«5over^d  no  «,ch  disposition  in 
mm     lie  1.  about  45  year.  old.  and  enjoy,  a  great  share  of  health. 

M.  Lansing  M  a  practicing  Attorney  at  Albany,  and  Mayor  of  that 
CorjH)ration.  He  haa  a  hiaitation  in  hi.  .peech.  that  will  prevent  bia 
being  an  Orator  of  any  eminence  ;-hi.  legal  knowledge  I  am  told  is 
not  extensive,  nor  hi.  education  a  good  one.  He  ia  however  a  Man  of 
goo«l  senw.  plain  m  his  manners,  and  aincere  in  hia  friendahipa.  He 
IS  about  32  years  of  age. 

Pbom  New  Jersst. 

E8q^^i'''°*^*°°'  ^^^'^  ^""'^''  ^^  P**^"""'  "d  Jon?  Dayton, 
Governor  Livingrton  i.  confe«edly  a  Man  of  the  firat  rate  talent, 
but  he  appears  to  me  rather  to  indulge  a  sportivenew  of  wit,  than  a 
strength  of  thinking.  He  is  however  equal  to  anything,  from  the  ex- 
tensiveness  of  hi.  education  and  geniua.  His  writing,  teem  with  satyr 
and  a  neatnew  of  style.  But  he  i.  no  Orator,  and  wems  little  ac 
quainted  with  the  guile,  of  poUcy.  He  is  about  60  year,  old,  and 
remarkably  healthy.  ' 

M:  Brearly  is  a  man  of  good,  rather  than  of  brilliant  parts.    He 

IS  a  Judge  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  New  Je«ey,  and  is  very  much  in 

he  es  eem  of  the  people.    As  an  Orator  he  has  little  to  boast  of,  but 

40  veaw  of         ^""^"^  ''''^"^  ***  recommend  him.    JB  Brearly  is  about 

M:  Patterson  is  one  of  those  kind  of  Men  whow  powers  break  in 
upon  you,  and  create  wonder  and  astonishment.  He  is  a  Man  of  great 
modesty,  with  looks  that  bespeak  talent,  of  no  great  extent,-but  he 
is  a  Classic,  a  Lawyer,  and  an  Orator  ;-and  of  a  disposition  so  favor- 
able to  his  advancement  that  eveiy  one  seemed  ready  to  exalt  him  with 
their  praises.  He  is  very  happy  in  the  choice  of  time  and  manner  of 
engaging  m  a  debate,  and  never  speaks  but  when  he  understands  his 

'  V\'.  C.  Houatoun  omitted. 


MIOIOCOPV   RfSOUniON  TiST  CHART 

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gF  1653   tasl   Mam   Slre«t 

S"^         Rochester,   New   Yorli  1*609       USA 

(716)   482  -  0300  -  Phone 

(716)   2W  -  5989  -  Fo« 


xc         DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

subject  well.    This  Gentleman  is  about  34  y!  of  age,  of  a  very  low 
stature. 

Cap*  ayton  is  a  young  Gentleman  of  talents,  with  ambition  to 
exert  i.  He  possesses  a  good  education  and  some  reading;  he 
speaks  well,  and  seems  desirous  of  improving  himself  in  Oratory. 
There  is  an  impetuosity  in  his  temper  that  is  injurious  to  him;  but 
there  is  an  honest  rectitude  about  him  that  makes  him  a  valuable  Mem- 
ber of  Society,  and  secures  to  him  the  esteem  of  all  good  Men.  He  is 
about  30  years  old,  served  with  me  as  a  Brother  Aid  to  General  Sulli- 
van in  the  Western  expedition  of  '79. 


From  Pennstlvanu. 

Benj!  Franklin,  Tho!  Mifflin,  Bobi  Morris,  Geo.  Clymer,  Thomas 
Pitzsimons,  Jared  Ingersol,  James  Wilson,  Govemeur  Morris. 

DI  Franklin  is  well  known  to  be  the  greatest  phylosopher  of  the 
present  age ;— all  the  operaions  of  nature  he  seems  to  understand,— 
the  very  heavens  obey  him,  and  the  Clouds  yield  up  their  Lightning 
to  be  imprisoned  in  his  rod.  But  what  claim  he  has  to  the  politician, 
posterity  must  determine.  It  is  certain  that  he  does  not  shine  much 
in  public  Council,— he  is  no  Speaker,  nor  does  he  seem  to  let  polities 
engage  his  attention.  He  is,  however,  a  most  extraordinary  Man,  and 
tells  a  story  in  a  style  more  engaging  than  anything  I  ever  heard.  Let 
his  Biographer  finish  his  character.  He  is  82  years  old,  and  possesses 
an  activity  of  mind  equal  to  a  youth  of  25  years  of  age. 

General  Mifflin  is  well  known  for  the  activity  of  his  mind,  and  the 
brilliancy  of  his  parts.  He  is  well  informed  and  a  graceful  Speaker. 
The  General  is  about  40  years  of  age,  and  a  very  handsome  man. 

Robert  Morris  is  a  merchant  of  great  eminence  and  wealth;  an 
able  Financier,  and  a  worthy  Patriot.  He  has  an  understanding  equal 
to  any  public  object,  and  possesses  an  energy  of  mind  that  few  Men 
can  boast  of.  Although  he  is  not  learned,  yet  he  is  as  great  as  those 
who  are.  I  am  told  that  when  he  speaks  in  the  Assembly  of  Pennsyl- 
vania, that  he  bears  down  all  before  him.  What  could  have  been  his 
reason  for  not  Speaking  in  the  Convention  I  know  not,— but  he  never 
once  spoke  on  any  point.    This  Gentleman  is  about  50  years  old. 

W  Clymer  is  a  Lawyer  of  some  abilities ;— he  is  a  respectable  Man, 
and  much  esteemed.    M?  Clymer  is  about  40  years  old. 

MS  Fitzsimons  is  a  Merchant  of  considerable  talents,  and  speaks 
very  well  I  am  told,  in  the  Legislature  of  Pennsylvania.  He  is  about 
40  years  old. 

Mf  Ingersol  is  a  very  able  Attorney,  and  possesses  a  dear  legal 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787       zei 

understanding.  He  is  well  aducated  in  the  Claasic's,  and  is  a  Man  of 
veiy  extensive  reading.  Mt  Ingenol  speaks  well,  and  eomprehends 
his  suoject  fully.  There  is  a  modesty  in  his  character  that  keeps  him 
back.    He  is  about  36  years  old. 

Mr  Wilson  ranks  among  the  foremost  in  legal  and  political  knowl- 
edge. He  has  joined  to  a  fine  genius  all  that  can  set  him  oflf  and  show 
him  to  advantage.  He  is  well  acquainted  with  Man,  and  understands 
all  the  passions  that  influence  him.  Government  seems  to  htve  been 
his  peculiar  Study,  all  the  political  institutions  of  the  World  he 
knows  in  detail,  and  can  trace  the  causes  and  effects  of  every  revolu- 
tion from  the  earliest  stages  of  the  Qreecian  commonwealth  down  to 
the  present  time.  No  man  is  more  clear,  copious,  and  comprehensive 
than  M'.  Wilson,  yet  he  is  no  great  Orator.  He  draws  the  attention 
not  by  the  charm  of  his  eloquence,  but  by  the  force  of  his  reasoning. 
He  is  about  45  years  old. 

M!  Gtovemeur  Morris  is  one  of  those  Genius's  in  whom  every 
species  of  talents  combine  to  render  him  conspicuous  and  flouruhing 
in  public  debate:— He  winds  through  all  the  mases  of  rhetoric,  and 
throws  around  him  such  a  glare  that  he  charms,  captivates,  and  leads 
away  the  senses  of  all  who  hear  him.  With  an  infinite  stieach  of 
fancy  he  brings  to  view  things  when  he  is  engaged  in  deep  argumenta- 
tion, that  render  all  the  labor  of  reasoning  easy  and  pleasing.  But 
with  all  these  powers  he  is  fickle  and  inconstant, — ^never  pursuing  one 
train  of  thinking,— nor  ever  regular.  He  has  gone  through  a  very 
extensive  course  of  reading,  and  is  acquainted  with  all  the  sciences. 
No  Man  has  more  wit, — nor  can  any  one  engage  the  attention  more 
than  Mr  Morris.  He  was  bred  to  the  Law,  but  I  am  told  he  disliked 
the  profession,  and  turned  Merchant.  He  is  engaged  in  some  great 
mercantile  matters  with  his  namesake  Mt  Bob.*  Morris.  This  (Jentle- 
man  is  about  38  years  old,  he  has  been  unfortunate  in  losing  one  of 
his  Legs,  and  getting  all  the  flesh  taken  oflf  his  right  arm  by  a  scald, 
when  a  youth. 


FbOU  DDiAWABE. 

Jn?  Dickinson,  Gunning  Bedford,  Geo:  Bead,  Eich*  Baaaett,  and 
Jacob  Broom  Esquires. 

Mr  Dickinson  has  been  famed  through  all  America,  for  his  Farmers 
Letters;  he  is  a  Scholar,  and  said  to  be  a  Man  of  very  extensive  in- 
formation. When  I  saw  him  in  the  Convention  I  was  induced  to 
pay  the  greatest  attention  to  him  whenever  he  spoke.  I  had  often 
heard  that  he  was  a  great  Orator,  but  I  found  him  an  indiflferent 


xcu       DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Speaker.  "With  an  affected  air  of  wisdom  he  labors  to  produce  a 
trifle,— his  language  is  irregular  and  incorrect, — his  flourishes,  (for 
he  sometimes  attempts  them),  are  like  expiring  flames,  they  just  shew 
themselves  and  go  out;— no  traces  of  them  are  left  on  the  mind  to 
chear  or  animate  it.  He  is,  however,  a  good  writer  and  will  be  ever 
considered  one  of  the  most  important  characters  in  the  United  States. 
He  is  about  55  years  old,  and  was  bred  a  Quaker. 

MI  Bedford  was  educated  for  the  Bar,  and  in  his  profession  I  am 
told,  has  merit.  He  is  a  bold  and  nervous  Speaker,  and  has  a  very  com- 
manding and  striking  manner;— but  he  is  warm  and  impetuous  in 
his  temper,  and  precipitate  in  his  judgment.  MI  Bedford  is  about  32 
years  old,  and  very  corpulant. 

W  Read  is  a  Lawyer  and  a  Judge;— his  legal  abilities  are  said  to 
be  very  great,  but  his  powers  of  Oratory  are  fatiguing  and  tireswne 
to  the  last  degree ;— his  voice  is  feeble,  and  his  articulation  so  bad  that 
few  can  have  patience  to  attend  to  him.  He  is  a  very  good  Man,  and 
bears  an  amiable  character  with  those  who  know  him.  W  Read  ia 
about  50,  of  a  low  stature,  and  a  weak  constitution. 

W-  Bassett  is  a  religious  enthusiast,  lately  turned  Methodist,  and 
p'  .3  his  Country  because  it  is  the  will  of  the  people  that  he  should 
do  so.  He  is  a  Man  of  plain  sense,  and  has  modesty  enough  to  hold 
his  Tongue.  He  is  a  Gentlemanly  Man,  and  is  in  high  estimation 
among  the  Methodists.    Mt  Bassett  is  about  36  years  old. 

Ml  Broom  is  a  plain  good  Man,  with  some  abilities,  but  nothing  to 
render  him  conspicuous.  He  is  silent  in  public,  but  chearful  and  con- 
versable in  private.    He  is  about  35  years  old. 

Fbom  MaBTIiAND. 

Luther  Martin,  Ja!  M'Henry,  Daniel  of  S!  Thomas  Jenifer,  and 
Daniel  Carrol  Esquires.* 

iP  Martin  was  educated  for  the  Bar,  and  is  Attorney  general  for 
the  State  of  Maryland.  This  Gentleman  possesses  a  good  deal  of  in- 
formation, but  he  has  a  very  bad  delivery,  and  so  extremely  prolix, 
that  he  never  speaks  without  tiring  the  patience  of  all  who  hear  him. 
He  is  about  34  years  of  age. 

Ml  ArHenry  was  bred  a  physician,  but  he  afterwards  turned 
Soldier  and  acted  as  Aid  to  Gen!  Washington  and  the  Marquis  de  la 
Payette.  He  is  a  Man  of  specious  talents,  with  nothing  of  genious  to 
improve  them.    As  a  politician  there  is  nothing  remarkable  in  him, 


'  Jkmes  FnnciB  Mercer  omitted. 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OF  1787     zeiii 

nor  has  he  any  of  the  graces  of  the  Orator.  He  is  however,  a  very 
respectable  young  GenUeman,  and  deserves  the  honor  which  his 
Country  has  bestowed  on  him.  Mi  M'Henry  is  about  32  yean 
or  age.  /b».» 

MI  Jenifer  is  a  Gentlenuin  of  fortune  in  Maryland  ;-he  is  always 
to  good  humour  and  never  faita  to  make  his  company  pleased  with 
lum.  He  sits  silent  m  the  Senate,  and  seems  to  be  conscious  that  he 
IS  no  pohtician  Prom  his  long  continuance  in  single  life,  no  doubt 
but  he  has  made  the  vow  of  celibacy.  He  speaks  warmly  of  the 
Ladies  notwithstanding.  M^  Jenifer  is  about  55  yeani  of  Age,  and 
once  served  as  an  Aid  de  Camp  to  Major  Gen.'  Lee. 

Mt  Carrol  is  a  Man  of  large  fortune,  and  influence  in  his  State 
He  possesses  plain  good  sense,  and  is  in  the  full  confidence  of  his 
Countiy-men.    This  Gentleman  is  about       years  of  age. 

Pboh  VmeonA. 

GenJ^o:  \^ington,  «3eo:  Wythe,  Geo:  Mason,  Jal  Maddison 
jun»  Jn?  Blair,  Edm?  Bandolph,  and  James  M?Lurg 

Gen!  Washington  is  weU  known  as  the  Commander  in  chief  of  the 
late  American  Army.  Having  conducted  these  States  to  independence 
and  peace,  he  now  appears  to  assist  in  framing  a  Government  to  make 
the  People  happy^  Like  Gustavus  Vasa,  he  may  be  said  to  be  the 
debverer  of  his  Country ,— like  Peter  the  great  he  appears  as  the 
politician  and  the  States-man;  and  like  Cincinnatus  he  returned  to 
his  farm  perfectly  contented  with  being  only  a  plain  Citizen,  after 
enjoying  the  highest  honor  of  the  confederacy,-*nd  now  only  seeks 
for  the  approbation  of  his  Country-men  by  being  virtuous  and  useful 
The  General  was  conducted  to  the  Chair  as  President  of  the  Conven- 
tion by  the  unanimous  voice  of  its  Members.  He  is  in  the  52*  year 
of  his  age.  ' 

ftp  Wythe  B  the  famous  Professor  of  Law  at  the  University  of 
WiUiam  and  Mwy.  He  is  confessedly  one  of  the  most  learned  legal 
Characters  of  the  present  age.  Prom  his  close  attention  to  the  study 
of  general  learning  he  has  acquired  a  compleat  knowledge  of  the  dead 
langna^  and  aU  the  sciences.  He  is  remarked  for  his  examplary 
life  and  universally  esteemed  for  his  good  principles.  No  Man  it  is 
said  underetands  the  history  of  Government  better  than  M?  Wythe  — 
nor  any  one  who  understands  the  fluctuating  condition  to  which  aU 

Tntn^?^  **;'  ?^***'  '^"^  ^*  ^'^'''  ^''  ^^  »>«  ^  '''^""ble 
opinion  of  Men,  he  is  no  great  politician.  He  is  a  neat  and  pleasing 
Speaker,  and  a  most  correct  and  able  Writer.  Mt  Wythe  is  about 
55  years  of  age. 


xciv      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

MI  Mason  is  a  Gentleman  of  remarkable  strong  powers,  and  pos- 
sesses a  clear  and  copious  understanding.  He  is  able  and  convincing 
in  debate,  steady  and  firm  in  his  principles,  and  undoubtedly  one  of 
the  best  politicians  in  America.  MI  Mason  is  about  60  years  old,  with 
a  fine  strong  constitution. 

W-  Maddison  is  a  character  who  has  long  been  in  public  life ;  and 
what  is  very  remarkable  every  Person  seems  to  acknowledge  his  great- 
ness.   He  blends  together  the  profound  poUtician,  with  the  Scholar. 
In  the  management  of  every  great  question  he  evidently  took  the 
lead  in  the  Convention,  and  tho'  he  cannot  be  called  an  Orator,  he  is 
a  most  agreable,  eloquent,  and  convincing  Speaker.    From  a  spint 
of  industry  and  application  which  he  possesses  in  a  most  eminent 
degree,  he  always  comes  forward  the  best  informed  Man  of  any  point 
in  debate.    The  affairs  of  the  United  States,  he  perhaps,  has  the  most 
correct  knowledge  of,  of  any  Man  in  the  Union.    He  has  been  twice  a 
Member  of  Congress,  and  was  always  thought  one  of  the  ablest  Mem- 
bers that  ever  sat  in  that  CouncU.    M!  Maddison  is  about  37  years  of 
age,  a  Gentleman  of  great  modesty,— with  a  remarkable  sweet  temper. 
He  is  easy  and  unreserved  among  his  acquaintance,  and  has  a  most 
agreable  style  of  conversation. 

m  Blair  is  one  of  the  most  respectable  Men  in  Virj^a,  both  on 
account  of  his  Family  as  well  as  fortune.  He  is  one  of  the  Judges  of 
the  Supreme  Court  in  Virpnia,  and  acknowledged  to  have  a  very  ex- 
tensive knowledge  of  the  Laws.  Mr  Blair  is  however,  no  Orator,  but 
his  good  sense,  and  most  excellent  principles,  compensate  for  other 
deficiencies.    He  is  about  50  years  of  age. 

W.  Randolph  is  Governor  of  Virginia,— a  young  QauUeman  in 
whom  unite  all  the  accomplishments  of  the  Scholar,  pnd  ihe  States- 
man. He  came  forward  with  the  postulata,  or  flrat  principles,  on 
which  the  Convention  acted,  and  he  supported  them  with  a  force  of 
eloquence  and  reasoning  that  did  him  great  honor.  He  has  a  most 
harmonious  voice,  a  fine  person  and  striking  manners.  Mr  Randolph 
is  about  32  years  of  age. 

W-  M'Lurg  is  a  learned  physician,  but  having  never  appeared  be- 
fore in  pubUc  life  his  character  as  a  politician  is  not  sufficiently 
known.  He  attempted  once  or  twice  to  speak,  but  with  no  great 
success.  It  is  certain  that  he  has  a  foundation  of  learning,  on  which, 
if  he  pleases,  he  may  erect  a  character  of  high  renown.  The  Doctor 
is  about  38  years  of  age,  a  Gentleman  of  great  respectabUity,  and  of 
a  fair  and  unblemished  character. 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787      xcv 


NOBTH  CaBOUNA. 

W?,  Blount,  EicW  Dobbs  Spaight,  Hugh  WUlianuon,  W9  Davey, 
and  Jn?  Martin '  Esquires.  "^ 

M'.  Blount  is  a  character  strongly  marked  for  integrity  and  honor. 
He  has  been  twice  a  Member  of  Congress,  and  in  that  oflSce  discharged 
his  duty  with  ability  and  faithfulness.  He  is  no  Speaker,  nor  does 
he  possess  any  of  those  talents  that  make  Men  shine;— he  is  plain, 
honest,  and  sincere.    M!  Blount  is  about  36  years  of  age. 

Mr  Spaight  is  a  worthy  Man,  of  some  abilities,  and  fortune.  With- 
out possessing  a  Genius  to  render  him  briliant,  he  is  able  to  discharge 
any  public  trust  that  his  Countiy  may  repose  in  him.  He  is  about 
31  years  of  age. 

M5  Williamson  is  a  Gentleman  of  education  and  talents.  He  en- 
ters freely  into  public  debate  from  his  close  attention  to  most  sub- 
jects, but  he  is  no  Orator.  There  is  a  great  degree  of  good  humour 
and  pleasantry  in  his  character;  and  in  his  manners  there  is  a  strong 
trait  of  the  Gentleman.    He  is  about  48  years  of  age. 

Mt  Davey  is  a  Lawyer  of  some  eminence  in  his  State.  He  is  said  to 
have  a  good  classical  education,  and  is  a  Gentleman  of  considerable 
literary  talents.  He  was  silent  in  the  Convention  *  but  his  opinion  wa» 
always  respected.    Mt  Davy  is  about  30  years  of  age. 

Mr  Martin  was  lately  Governor  of  North  Carolina,  which  office  he 
filled  with  credit.  He  is  a  Man  of  sense,  and  undoubtedly  is  a  good 
politician,  but  he  is  not  formed  to  shine  in  public  debate,  being  no 
Speaker.  Mr  Martin  was  once  a  Colonel  in  the  American  Army,  but 
proved  unfit  for  the  field.   He  is  about  40  years  of  age. 


South  Carolina. 

Jn?  Rutledge,  Ch!  Cotesworth  Pinckney,  Charles  Pinckney,  and 
Pierce  Butler  Esquires. 

Mr  Rutledge  is  one  of  those  characters  who  was  highly  mounted  at 
the  commencement  of  the  late  revolution ;— his  reputation  in  the  first 
Congress  gave  him  a  distinguished  rank  among  the  American  Worthies. 
He  was  bred  to  the  Law,  and  now  acts  as  one  of  the  Chancellors  of 
South  Carolina.  This  Gentleman  is  much  famed  in  his  own  State  as 
an  Orator,  but  in  my  opinion  he  is  too  rapid  in  his  public  speaking 
to  be  denominated  an  agreeable  Orator.    He  is  undoubtedly  a  man 

'  Alexander  Martin. 

•Not  absolutely;  see  Uad%$on  Paper;  1007,  1039,  1081,  1164,  1191. 


xeri      DT'.BATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

of  abilitia.,  and  a  Gentleman  of  dirtinction  and  fortune.  Bff  Rul^ 
ledge  WM  once  Governor  of  South  CaroUna.    He  u>  about  48  jear. 

°*  M?CW  Cotesworth  PincloMsy  U  a  Gentleman  of  FamUy  and  fortune 
in  hiB  own  State.  He  has  received  the  advantage  of  a  li^ral  educa- 
tion,  and  po<»»se.  a  very  extensive  degree  of  legal  knowledge  When 
warin  in  a^tetThe  sometime,  speaks  weU.-but  he  »  8«»«~lly  ^^^ 
sidered  an  indifferent  Orator.  Mr  Pinckney  was  an  Officer  of  high 
rank  in  the  Americai.  Army,  and  served  with  great  reputation  through 
the  War.    He  is  now  about  40  years  of  age. 

W.  Charles  Pinckney  is  a  young  Gentleman  of  the  most  promising 
talents.  He  is,  altho'  only  24  y^  of  age,  in  possession  of  a  very  great 
variety  of  knowledge.  Government.  J^w,  Hutory  and  Phylowphy 
are  hi  favorite  studies,  but  he  is  intimately  acquainted  ^^  <^^^ 
soecies  of  polite  learning,  and  has  a  spirit  of  apphcation  and  industry 
Wond  most  Men.  He  speaks  with  great  neatness  and  penpicuily, 
and  treats  every  -nbject  as  fully,  without  running  into  P^^"^\'^ 
it  requires.  He  has  been  a  Member  of  Congress,  and  served  in  that 
Bodv  with  ability  and  eclat. 

M?  Butler  is  a  character  much  respected  for  the  many  exceUent 
virtues  which  he  possesses.  But  as  a  politician  or  an  Orator  he  has 
no  pretentions  to  either.  He  is  a  Gentleman  of  fortune,  and  takes  rank 
among  the  first  in  South  Carolina.  He  has  been  appointed  to  Con- 
Z^  and  is  now  a  Member  of  the  Legislature  of  South  Carolina.  M^ 
Butler  is  about  40  years  of  age;  an  Irishman  by  birth. 

Fob  Georgia. 
W-P  Few,  Abraham  Baldwin,  W?  Pierce,  and  W?  Houstoun 

Esq" 

Mr  Few  possesses  a  strong  natural  Genius,  and  from  appbcation 
has  acquired  some  knowledge  of  legal  matters;-he  practises  at  the 
bar  of  Georgia,  and  speaks  tolerably  well  in  the  Legislature.  He  has 
been  twice  a  Member  of  Congress,  and  served  in  that  cfpa"^  J"^^ 
fideUty  to  his  State,  and  honor  to  himself.    M?  Few  is  about  35  years 

**  ^Baldwin  is  a  Gentleman  of  superior  abilities  and  joins  in  a 
public  debate  with  great  art  and  eloquence.  Having  laid  the  founda- 
tion  of  a  compleat  classical  education  at  Harvard  College  he  pursues 

every  other  study  with  ease.  He  is  well  •«=<l«r''^  k  ^  «W^ 
ChJacters,  and  has  an  accomodating  turn  of  mind  which  enable 
him  to  gain  the  confidence  of  Men,  and  to  understand  them.    He  is 


ANTECEDENTS  OP  THE  CONVENTION  OP  1787    xcvii 

•  p-actiiing  Attorney  in  G«orgi«,  and  hu  been  twice  a  Member  of 
CongreM.    Mr  Baldwin  is  about  38  yean  of  age. 

Mt  Hourtoun  ia  an  Attorney  at  Law,  and  has  been  Member  of  Con- 
greas  for  the  State  of  Georgia.  He  is  a  QenUeman  of  Family  and 
was  educated  in  England.  As  to  his  legal  or  political  knowledge  he 
has  veiy  little  to  boast  of.  Nature  seems  to  have  done  more  for  his 
corporeal  than  mental  powers.  His  Person  is  striking,  but  his  mind 
very  little  improved  with  usefil  or  elegant  knowledge.  He  has  none 
of  the  talents  requisite  for  the  Orator,  but  in  pubUc  debate  is  con- 
fused and  irregular.  Mt  Houatoun  is  about  30  year*  of  age  of  an 
amiable  and  sweet  temper,  and  of  good  and  honorable  principles. 

My  own  character  I  shall  not  attempt  to  draw,  but  leave  those  who 
may  choose  to  speculate  on  it,  to  consider  it  in  any  li^t  that  their 
fancy  or  imagiuRtion  may  depict  I  am  conscious  of  having  discharged 
my  duty  as  a  Soldier  through  the  course  of  the  Ute  revolution  with 
honor  and  propriety ;  and  my  services  in  Congress  and  the  Convention 
were  bestowed  with  the  best  intention  towards  the  interest  of  Georgia, 
and  towards  the  general  welfare  of  the  Confederacy.  I  possess  am' 
bition,  and  it  was  that,  and  the  flattering  opinion  which  some  of  my 
Friends  had  of  me,  that  gave  me  a  seat  in  the  wisest  Council  in  the 
Worid,  and  furnished  me  with  an  opportunity  of  giving  these  short 
Sketches  of  the  Characters  who  composed  it. 


PART  il 
THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


^ .  t 


PBEPACB  TO  DEBATES  IN  THE  CONVENTION* 

A  Skitch  Nivbi  FimsHio  moi  Appub).* 

.*  i^.**!^'^'^*^"**  ''"^  **'  '"■°  luturtlly  lead  to  tn  aMoeiAtion 
Of  Indirlduth,  ander  •  common  authority,  whenl^  Mdi  m»  haTO 
the  Protwtlon  of  the  whole  agiiiut  danger  from  without,  and  enjoy 
to  aafety  within,  the  advantages  of  aoeiai  interooone,  and  an  exehann 
ctf  the  neeemriea  «  comforts  of  life :  in  like  manner  feebU  eommoni. 
ttM,  independent  of  each  other,  have  reM>rted  to  a  Union,  le«  intimate, 
tat  with  common  Conncila,  for  the  common  safety  ag^  powerfol  neigh- 
toors,  and  for  the  preservation  of  justice  and  peace  among  themselves. 
Ancient  Witory  famishes  examples  of  these  eonfederal*  a«oeiations. 
it-!"  'J^  i»I>«rfect  account,  of  their  structnw,  and  of  the  at- 
tributes  and  functions  of  the  presiding  Authority.  There  are  ex- 
amples  of  modem  date  also,  some  of  them  stiU  existing,  the  modifica- 
tions and  transactions  of  which  are  snflleiently  known. 

It  remained  for  the  British  Colonies,  now  United  States,  of  North 
America,  to  add  to  thoee  examples,  one  of  a  mora  interesting  char- 
actor  than  any  of  them:  which  led  to  a  system  without  a*  examnle 
Micient  or  modem,  a  system  founded  on  popular  rights,  and  so  com- 
bing.  a  federal  form  with  the  forms  of  individual  Bepublics,  as  may 

-1— «S  1*^  f^^'  H^**>»  referred  in  pMiing  to  doenmenta  wWch  1m  »l. 

b«r««u  to  otw  Sr^"5!L'^,iSit^i,Slr*  *"  "**~*^  ** '""""  "^ 

he  had  teratdted  oat  the  phraae  "  Prefeee  o  Debataa  in  the  ConVenUoTS^  1787^ 
iUlJLJ^  ""^\  *^  "»•"»  *"**•  '»»  »'  «»MTtloM  a^  Sow  Tie 
In  ♦LViiflf  When  hii  handa  were  crippled  w  th  rheomatiam  A  few  worda 
iSJa  dir^lr'rSI'V.u'^  John  C  P,,;;^  (Mm.  MadW.  bother)  .^  Sdi? 

'ThT^h  «.!?*•  f'..*^"  "''■'*  '*•  l^tween  1830  and  18M. 

•ThS  Ind  r.**".^*?*"**  *•  wbrtJtnted  in  the  tranacript  for  "  confederal - 
The  word     an  "  ia  subttituted  in  th«  tranecript  for  "  T"  «»»i«w««'- 


2     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 
enable  each  to  «ipply  the  defects  of  the  other  and  obtain  the  ady«i- 

''^^^Si^olonie.  enjoyed  the  p.^tection  of  the  P^^^^ount^ 
as  Hwas  caUed,  against  foreign  danger;  and  were  f  ««f  byjU 
"periltexiding  <iul,  against  conflicts  among  then»elv«..  ttey  co^ 
SiuSrS?ndent  of  each  other,  under  a  common,  thoj  limited 
dTp^dence.  on  the  parental  Authority.  When  however  the  growto 
0  'the Xii^  in  strength  and  in  wealth,  awakened  the  jealousy  «id 
^fwJTthe^dity  of  the  parent,  into  schemes  of  usurpation  &  ex- 
^uSTtht  oh'lTgSntas  f e^  by  the  former  of  uniting  their  counsel, 
and  efforts  to  avert  the  impending  calamity. 

As  early  as  the  year  1754.  indicatiomi  having  been  PJ«»  ~  »  f*" 
.ign^^Brittidi  Government  to  levy  «>-*'«<»».  "^^i^iT^ 
^^o^t  tiieir  consent;  a  meeting  of  Colonial  deputies  ^^  ijace^ 

s;r,f'::r^isr^^:.W^"--rsrthtiS: 

inff  these  rights  into  a  more  conspicuous  view,  to  invigorate  the  aUMn 
mfnfrthm  on»  one  «de;  «id  to  nouridi  the  h«ighty  &  encroaching 
.p.nt  on  the  otib«.  ^  ^  ^  ^^  ^^^  assertion  of 

ZTthBt  the  Colonies  did  oot  hesitate  to  assemble,  by  their  deputies, 
Saf^m^Cong^  authorised  to  opr»e  to  the  British  innova^^ 
"htt^TmeasuTSght  be  found  best  adapted  to  tibe  occ.«on;  with- 
out  however  losing  sight  of  an  ev^tualree^^^ 

The  di.su.rive  "^^^  f,*^,^"Sc  SsTo  bring  about 
""^fsL  i^^  o?I  oLirl^  equally  unavailing. 

proceeded  on  the  memorable  4™  of  Juiy.  i/  lo  w 

onies,  Independent  States.*  Committee  consisting 

,  ^^b^r  er^«;^^^^ 

— .ln-pl«.  of  "the  .dv«U*«  of  both"  the  t«nKript  read,  "that  «1t«. 
*H:*.°i.'*-;'li  "the"  ia  here  liuerted  to  the  traii«nript. 
•The  word*  "Independent  BUtea     are  ii* 


PBEFACE  TO  DEBATES  f 

diffBrt  t  fona  of  Confederation,  for  the  future  management  of  the 
c^monmterc«te  which  had  hitherto  been  left  to  thTdi^relion  o5 
Congw.,,  guided  by  the  exigence,  of  the  contert,  and  for  thetao^ 
mt^tion.  or  occadonal  inatruction.  of  the  Colonial  uS>iM^ 
"  A  J^vf^n  )  f  *■'''  "  ^'^  2W  Of  July  1775,  A  plan  entiUed 
hir^??  ."L^u"'^"'*^*'"  *  ^"^^"^  Union  of  the  Cdonies  "  hS 
been jketebed  by  Dotf  Franklin,  the  plan  being  on  that  day  suS 

teT^^iw.^^^^"*^^^*^"*-   Bnt  notwithatandiittJ 

the^of^^t  *'**^V  '"^  '"  *^*  P^  '•ported  by  the  Com'  on 
tte  12  of  July,  now  alao  remaining  on  the  file,  of  Congrew  in"  the 

iS^?^;'^'^'*'^  The  plan,  tho' dated  af^;  S«t 
imtion  of  Independence,  was  probably  drawn  up  before  that  event  • 
^ce  tte  name  of  Cclonie..  not  State,  i.  ^  thrJuSorthelS' 

t?*i?S"  ,T'*^l'~  ^***^  «^  •»"<J«d  froTtime  to  tS^tii 
the  m  of  November  1777.  when  it  wa.  agreed  to  by  Co^%nd 
propo^d  to  the  Legiriature.  of  the  StatoT^  an  ipl^S^  ^ 
«c«un«nd«toTy  letter.  T^e  ratifleatioiTof  the*^^^^^^'^^ 
in  Cong,  duly  authoriaed  took  place  at  rocceadve  daLVbut  WL^ 
compleated  tiU  March  U  1781.  when  Maryland  wh^hTr^l^l 

t^  ^.S'T"  ^\y^'^^'^  to  «»•  Pe«aa«on  that  a  fliTj 
foraud  ertabbriuaent  of  the  federr!  Union  A  Oov!  would  make  a  favo* 

mie  great  difficulty  experienced  in  m  framing  the  fed'  .yatem  as 
to  obtjn  ^e  unanmity  required  for  it.  duHSon.  meTbe^e^ 
from  the  long  interval,  and  recurring  diacumona  between  th«  ZT 

s?.f  ^TJ  ^  *^*  ^«°^  of  Cong?  when  proporing  it  to  the 
lu^o  iS/oftl"^*  ^P^ejcabaity  of  devid^  a"^*  Jl?: 
aoie  to  au  of  them;  from  the  rehictant  anent  given  bv  mmn  •  im^  ti.- 

tTII  *  ''"i"^  '  '^•'^  ■^^«*»  to  them  from  Cong-  e^foS 

he'  pSc  aX    "J  r "^  ««»M«atlom.  and  favorito  oXio^  to  tS 

tne  puDiic  aafety,  and  the  neeemry  harmony:  Nor  waa  the  »»•»»  „f 

.ome  of  the  State,  finally  yieldr;Athout  ^L^7roZ>^X:^. 

..^The^phr.*,  "the  flr.t  of  March"  i,  «b.titut«l  i.  th.  t«n«^pt  for 


4     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 
ticular  artideB,  and  a  «li«ice  on  future  amendment,  removing  their 

"'''TtTto  be  recoUeeted,  no  doubt,  that  the«»  delay,  might  be  o^ 
e«doU  S  «»ne  degree,  by  an  occupation  of  the  pubhc  Councd.  both 
^erl  &  local,  ^th  the  deliberations  and  ^^"^^^1^^ 
Ssvolutionary  struggle ;  But  there  murt  have  been  a  balance  for  the« 
^^^obvioS  motive,  to  harten  the  e.tabU.hment  of  a  reg^ 
^^cTent  Gov* ;  and  in  the  tendency  of  the  criri.  to  «P«"JP;°»«°f 

Sd^t"^^.  ^bich  might  be  i-fl«tW:Ji:?t"«:;^»d°^ 
The  principal  difficultie.  which  embarraaed  the  P"*^*^**  J^ 
tJi^™  ompletion  of  the  plan  of  Confederation  m.y^to«>«i 
tol »  the  natural  repugnance  of  the  partiea  to  a  «l>°q™J»«°*  ^ 
^wer  2^  a  natural  jealouiy  of  it.  abu«  in  other  hand,  than  th«r 
Sin   3 '  the  rule  of  «iffrage  among  partie.  unequal  m  ^.  but^^a 

L  wvereignty.  4  the  ratio  of  contribution,  in  money  a°d  «»  *J~P^ 
^^rrTRrtiM »  whoM  inequaUty  in  «k  did  not  correspond  with  that 
oTSrC:^',  o^rthrmiuSry  or  f  r«  ^ov^f^^^^^^f^ 
and  definition  of  the  powers  at  once  neces«iry  to  the  federal  head, 
and  safe  to  the  several  members.  ,     ,        .•       *  .n  „„», 

T7these  sources  of  difficulty,  incident  to  the  formation  of  dl  .m^ 
Confederacies,  were  added  two  other,  one  of  a  ,t«»f^^jf  *^ 
of  a  nermanent  natiire.    The  first  wa.  the  case  of  the  Crown  iMids,  » 
IlLr^c^u^  they  had  been  held  by  tiie  British  Crown,  and  bemg 
unSnted  to  individuals  when  its  authority  ceased  were  c^de«^ 
W^State.  within  whose  charter,  or  asserted  hmit.  they  lay.  as  de- 
volvSg Tn  them;  whihrt  it  wa.  contended  l^  the  «  bers,  that  be^ 
3S  from  the  dethroned  authority,  by  the  equal  exertion  of  aU, 
C^™S  of  right  and  in  equity  to  the  benefit  of  aU.    The  land. 
bdLTvast  extent  and  of  growing  value,  were  the  occasion  of  much 
SLYon&  h«^buming;  &  proved  the  mo^  "Tf:?e:i  S.^'^he 
ments  to  an  earUer  consummation  of  the  Pl«J  «' 'f  ^^J  ^^  JJ' 
State  of  Maryland  the  last  tiiat  acceded  to  it  held  out  as  already 
notked  till  March  1,*  1781,  and  then  yielded  only  to  the  hope  tiiat  by 
Sng  k  teWe  &  authoritative  character  to  tiie  Confederation  a  suc- 
S5  termination  of  tiie  Contest  might  be  accelerated.    The  depute 
w^happily  compromised  by  successive  surrenders  of  portions  of  the 


•The  figure  1.  2.  and  3  «e  ch«ged  to  "flrrt."  ".^ondiy  and  "thirdly" 
in  the  transcript.  s  _   k.,*  ^na.\  in  Hjvereiimtv-     *  tl>«  '•*•"  "* 

..r..:.^^^'i:r:^P^^t'^TJri  ^rZ'^  ifeLneon-iy  omitted 

'°  '".'rirC'^S  i"  'hanged  to  "^""^^'/"flillt  of%UrTl'J*81 
•  In  the  transcript  the  date  reads  "  the  first  of  March.  1.81. 


PBEFACE  TO  DEBATES  6 

territory  by  the  States  having  ezclnuTe  claima  to  it,  and  aeeeptaneea 
of  them  by  CongreiB. 

The  other  loarce  of  diaratiafaction  waa  the  peculiar  situation  of 
Kune  of  the  States,  which  having  no  convenient  ports  for  foreign 
c(«nmerce,  were  sabject  to  be  taxed  by  their  neighbors,  thro  whose 
ports,  their  commerce  was  canyed  on.  New  Jetwey,  plaeed  between 
Phil*  ft  N.  Tork,  waa  likened  to  a  cask  t^>ped  at  both  ends;  and  N. 
Carolina,  between  Virg*  ft  S.  Carolina  to  a  patient  bleeding  at  both 
arms.  The  Articles  of  Confederation  provided  no  remedy  for  the 
complaint:  which  produced  a  strong  protest  on  the  part  of  N.  Jersey; 
and  never  ceased  to  be  a  sonrce  of  dissatisfaction  ft  discord,  until  the 
new  Constitution,  superseded  the  old. 

But  the  radical  infirmity  of  the  "  art!  of  Confederation  "  was  the 
dependance  of  Congf  on  the  voluntary  and  simultaneous  compliance 
with  its  Requisitions,  by  so  many  independant  Communities,  each  con- 
sulting more  or  less  its  particular  interests  ft  convenience  and  dis- 
trusting the  compliance  of  the  others.  Whilst  the  paper  emissions  of 
Cong?  continued  to  circulate  they  were  employed  as  a  sinew  of  war, 
like  gold  ft  silver.  When  that  ceased  to  be  the  case,  the  fatal  defect 
of  the  political  System  was  fdt  in  its  alarming  force.  The  war  was 
merely  kept  alive  and  broni^t  to  a  successful  eonelusion  by  such 
foreign  aids  and  temporary  expedients  as  could  be  applied;  a  hope 
prevailing  with  many,  and  a  wish  with  all,  that  a  state  of  peace,  and 
the  sources  of  prosperity  opened  by  it,  would  give  to  the  Confederacy 
in  practice,  the  efficiency  which  had  been  inferred  from  its  theory. 

The  close  of  the  war  however  brought  no  cure  for  the  public  em- 
barrasments.  The  States  relieved  from  the  pressure  of  foreign  dan- 
ger, and  flushed  with  the  enjoyment  of  independent  and  sovereign 
power;  [instead  of  a  diminished  di^xisition  to  part  with  it,]  per- 
severed in  omissions  and  in  measures  incompatible  with  their  relations 
to  the  Federal  Gov!  and  with  those  among  tiiemselves ; 

Having  served  as  a  member  of  Cong?  through  the  period  between 
Mar.  1780  ft  the  arrival  of  peace  in  1783, 1  had  become  intimately  ac- 
quainted with  the  public  distresses  and  the  causes  of  them.  I  had  ob- 
served the  successful  opposition  to  every  attempt  to  procure  a  remedy 
by  new  grants  of  power  to  Cong!  I  had  founnd  moreover  that  despair 
of  success  hung  over  the  compromising  provision  *  of  April  1783  for 
the  public  necessities  which  had  been  so  elaborately  planned,  and  so 
impressively  recommended  to  the  States.*    Sympathising,  under  this 

*  Se«  addrras  of  CongreH.' 

•  He  word  "  principle  "  ia  lulwtituted  for  "  provitioa  "  in  the  timnMript. 
» This  footnote  ia  omitted  in  the  tranaeript. 


>x'    ".1 


6      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

upect  of  aflfain,  in  the  alarm  of  the  friends  of  free  Gov',  at  the 
threatened  danger  of  an  abortive  result  to  the  great  &  perhaps  last 
experiment  in  its  faTOor,  I  coold  not  be  insensible  to  the  obligation  to 
co-operate  ^  at  far  as  I  could  in  averting  the  calamity.  With  this  view 
I  acceded  to  the  desire  of  my  fellow  Citizens  of  the  County  that  I 
should  be  one  of  its  representatives  in  the  Legislature,  hoping  that 
I  might  there  best  contribute  to  inculcate  the  critical  posture  to  which 
the  Revolutionary  cause  was  reduced,  and  the  merit  of  a  leading 
agency  of  the  SUte  in  bringing  about  a  rescue  of  the  Union  and  the 
blessings  of  liberty  a»  staked  on  it,  from  an  impending  catastrophe. 
It  required  but  little  time  after  taking  my  seat  in  the  House  of 
Delegates  in  May  1784  to  discover  that,  however  favorable  the  general 
disposition  of  the  State  might  be  towards  the  Confederacy  the  Leps- 
lature  retained  the  aversion  of  its  predecessors  to  transfers  of  power 
from  the  Stete  to  the  Gov!  of  the  Union;  notwithstanding  the  urgent 
demands  of  the  Federal  Treasury;  the  glaring  inadequacy  of  the 
authorized  mode  of  supplying  it,  the  rapid  growth  of  anarchy  in  the 
Fed?  System,  and  the  animosity  kindled  among  the  States  by  their 
conflicting    e^ations. 

The  I  THp>  •  of  the  Legislature  ft  the  wayward  comae  of  its  pro- 
ceedings ma/  be  gathered  from  the  Journals  of  its  Sessions  in  the 
years  1784  &  1785. 

The  failure  however  of  the  varied  proporitiona  in  the  Legialatnie, 
for  enlarging  the  powers  of  Congress,  the  continued  failure  of  the 
efforts  of  Cong!  to  obtain  from  them  the  means  of  pi«viding  for  the 
debts  of  the  Revolution;  and  of  countervailmg  the  commercial  laws 
of  G.  B.  a  source  of  much  irritation  ft  ag!J  which  the  separate  efforts  of 
the  States  were  found  worse  than  abortive;  these  Considerations  with 
the  lights  thrown  on  the  whole  subject,  by  the  free  &  full  discussion  it 
had  undergone  led  to  an  »  general  acquiescence  in  the  Resol?  passed,  on 
the  21.  of  Jan?  1786.  which  proposed  ft  invited  a  meeting  of  Deputies 
from  all  the  States  to  "  insert  the  Resol  (See  Joumal.)l.* 

The  resolution  had  been  brought  f— ward  some  weeks  before  on  the 
failure  of  a  proposed  grant  of  po*  ongress  to  collect  a  revenue 

from  commerce,  which  had  been  abh^-jned  by  its  friends  in  conse- 
quence of  material  alterations  made  in  the  grant  by  a  Committee  of 
the  whole.     The  Resolution  tho  introduced  by  Mi  Tyler  an  influ- 


•The  word  "aid"  is  iubstitnted  in  the  timnicript  for  "co-operate." 

'  The  word  "  a  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  a  "  ie  «ubgtittited  in  the  tranecript  for  «  an." 

•The  phraee  "to  'insert  the  Resol.  (See  Journal.)  1 "  is  omitted  in  the 
transcript  which  substitutes  the  words  "as  follows:  "  and  inserts  the  reM>Iutioll 
which  is  printed  in  this  volume  at  page  xlvii. 


PREFACE  TO  DEBATES  f 

racial  member,  who  having  never  served  in  Ckmgrea,  had  more  the 
ear  o£  the  Hoom  than  tboee  whcae  aervicea  there  exposed  them  to  an 
unpatable  biaa,  waa  ao  little  acceptable  that  it  was  not  then  pernated 
in.  Being  now  revived  by  him,  on  the  last  day  of  the  Session,  and 
being  the  alternative  of  adjonming  without  any  effort  for  the  crisis  in 
the  affain  of  the  Union,  it  obtained  a  general  vote ;  less  however  with 
some  of  Its  friends  from  a  confidence  in  the  success  of  the  experiment 
ttan  from  a  hope  that  it  might  prove  a  step  to  a  more  c(Hnprehensive 
ft  adequate  provision  for  the  wanto  of  the  Confederacy 

It  happened  also  that  Commissionera  who  had  been*  appointed  by 
Virg*  &  Mary*  to  settle  the  jurisdiction  on  watera  dividing  the  two 
States  had,  apart  from  their  (^oial  reports,  recommended  a  uniformity 
in  the  regulations  of  the  2  States  on  several  subjects  ft  particularly  on 
those  having  reUtion  to  foreign  trade.  It  apeared  at  tiie  same  time 
that  Mary*  had  deemed  a  concurrence  of  her  neifl^bors  Pen!  &  Dela- 
ware indispensable  in  such  a  case,  who  for  like  reasons  would  require 
that  of  their  neighbors.  So  apt  and  forceable  an  illustration  of  tiie 
necessity  of  a  uniformity  throughout  aU  tiie  SUtea  could  not  but 
favour  the  passage  of  a  Besolution  which  proposed  a  Convention  hav- 
ing that  for  its  object 

The  commisaionera  appointed  by  tiie  Legisl:  ft  who  attended  tiie 
Convention  were  B.  Bandolph  tiie  Attorney  of  tiie  State,  S5  Geo- 
Tucker  ft  J.  M.»  The  designation  of  tiie  time  ft  place  for  its  meeting 
to  be  proposed  and  communicated  to  tiie  SUtea  having  been  left  to  tiie 
Comi  they  named  for  tiie  time  early  »  September  and  for  tiie  place  tiie 
City  of  Annapolia  avoiding  tiie  reaidence  of  Cong!  and  large  Commer- 
cial  Citiee  as  liable  to  suspicions  of  an  extraneous  influence. 

Altiio  tiie  invited  Meeting  appeared  to  be  generally  favored,  five 
States  only  assembled;  some  failing  to  make  appointinents,  and  some 
of  the  individuals  appointed  not  hastening  their  ati«ndance,  tiie  re- 
sult in  botii  cases  being  ascribed  mainly,  to  a  belief  that  the  time  had 
not  arrived  for  such  a  poUtical  reform,  as  might  be  expected  from  a 
further  experience  of  its  neeesaity. 

But  in  the  inierval  between  the  proposal  of  the  Convention  and 
the  time  of  its  meeting,  such  had  been  the  advance  of  public  opinion 
in  the  desired  direction,  stimulated  as  it  had  been  by  tiie  eflFect  of 
the  contemplated  object,  of  the  meeting,  in  turning  the  genal  at- 
tention to  tiie  Critical  State  of  tilings,  and  in  caUing  forth  tiie  senti- 
menta  and  exertions  of  tiie  most  enlightened  ft  iniluencial  patriots. 


•  The  phrue  "  wbo  had  been  »  ii  omitted  In  the  truiwriBt 
'James  Madiioii. 

•  In  place  of  the  word  «  early  "  the  tranwript  reads  "  the  flrrt  Monday  In." 


8     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

that  the  Convention  thin  aa  it  waa  did  not  acruple  to  deeUne  the  lim- 
ited tadt  assigned  to  it  and  to  recommend  to  the  Statea  a  Convention 
with  powera  adequate  to  the  occaaion.  Nor  waa  it  ^  nnnoticed  that  the 
commission  of  the  N.  Jersey  Deputation,  had  extended  ita  object  to 
a  general  provision  for  the  eiigenciea  of  the  Union.  A  recommenda- 
tion for  this  enlarged  purpose  waa  accordingly  reported  ^  •  ^«° 
to  whom  the  subject  had  been  referred.  It  waa  drafted  by  Col: 
H.»  and  finally  agreed  to  unanimously*  in  the  following  form. 

"^The  re  "ommendation  was  weU  re««  by  the  Legislature  of  Virg! 
which  happened  to  be  the  firtt  that  acted  on  it,  and  the  example  of 
her  compliance  was  made  as  conciliatory  and  impressive  aa  possible. 
The  Legislature  were  unanimous  or  very  nearly  so  on  the  occasion, 
and »  as  a  proof  of  the  magnitude  &  solemnity  attached  to  it,  tii«y 
placed  Gen!  W.  at  the  head  of  the  Deputation  from  the  State;  and  u 
a  proof  of  the  deep  interest  he  felt  in  the  case  he  overstepped  the  ob- 
stacles to  his  acceptance  of  the  appointment 

The  law  complying  with  the  recommendation  from  Annapolis  waa 
in  the  terms  following:*  ^    «     .j 

A  resort  to  a  General  Convention  to  remodel  the  Confederacy,  waa 
not  a  new  idea.  It  had  entered  at  an  early  date  into  the  conversations 
and  speculations  of  the  most  reflecting  &  foreseeing  observers  of  the 
inadequacy  of  the  powers  allowed  to  Congress.  In  a  pamphlet  published 
in  May  81  at  the  seat  of  Congl  Pelatiah  Webster  an  able  tho'  not  con- 
spicuous Citisen,  after  discussing  the  fiscal  system  of  the  U.  States, 
and  suggesting  among  other  remedial  provisions '  including  a  national 
Bank  remarka  that  "  the  Authority  of  Cong!  at  present  is  very  in- 
adequate to  the  performance  of  their  duties;  and  this  indicates  the 
necessity  of  their  calling  a  Continental  Convention  for  the  express 
purpose  of  ascertaining,  defining,  enlarging,  and  limiting,  the  duties 
&  powers  of  their  Constitution." »  

.The  word,  "had  it  be^n"  are  gubstii.trf  in  the  tranKript  for  the  word, 
"was  it." 

''  Tirw'orf  ?^ai^ou.ly  "  i.  omitt«l  in  the  tran«ript     . 

'U^rZ'o  dmcUon  "In«;rt  it"  is  omitted  in  the  t""'*''?*;^ »°*  *J^«    " 

*^   ♦wl  ♦..^   nf  fh.  DToceedinn  and   recommendation  of   the   Annapolli 

"Thoueh  your  CommisBioners,"  etc. 

•  The  word  "  and  "  is  omitted  in  the  tranacript. 

•  The  text  of  this  law  of  October  16.  1786  (printed  onte  pages  1»:«»-|««  » 
insert^in\he  tr«n«=ript  lx.gin„ing  with  the  words  '  Whe'^'-.^J'*  Comm».>on. 
ers"  etc.  and  .    Mng  with  the  words  ".,  .    •  States  in  the  union. 

'  'The  woT(^      one"  is  here  inserted  m  the  transcript.  ».,4„_ 

.Mi^i«n\,.s  in  error.     The  p«nphlet  wa.  written  by  William  Barton. 


PBEFACE  TO  DEBATES  9 

On  the  1.  day  of  Ap!  1783,  Col.  Hamilton,  in  a  debate  in  Cong! 
observed  that* 

He  alladed  probably  to  [see  Life  of  Schnyler  in  Longacre* 
It  does  not  appear  however  that  his  expecUtion  had  been  ful- 
filled.] 

In  a  letter  to  J.  M.  from  B.  H.  Lee  then  President  of  CongJ  dated 
NovT  26,  1784  He  says* 

The  answer  of  J.  M.  remarks  * 

•  In  1785,  Noah  Webster  whose  pol.  &  other  valuable  writings  had 
made  him  known  to  the  public,  in  one  of  his  publications  of  American 
policy  brought  into  view  the  same  resort  for  supplying  the  defects 
of  the  Fed!  System  [see  his  life  in  Longacre] 

The  proposed  ft  expected  Convention  at  Annapolis  the  first  of  a 


'PaUtish  WebstOT  and  the  ConstitntioB,"  in  The  Nation, 


8m  Oaillard  Hunt, 
Oeeamber  28,  1011. 

rn«ti2"r!Sll,«.'!15..*i"  t"*''"*^  •"  *""  trmnicript:  "he  wbhed  iiutead  of  them 
'P^i      ^^onye""""*!   to  lee  »  g«nenl  Convention  teka  place;   and  that  he 

-n^J^'"^''**?*^  n  'T  ^"  otSchxtyWit  in  Lonaacn."  U  omitted  in  the  tran- 
•Brifrt  Md  the  fo  lowing  qnoted  matter  is  .ubrtTtuted:  "the  reMlutioM  in^ 
dttced  by  G««al  Sehnyler  in  the  Senate,  and  paewd  unantooMly  by  t£i 
Leg«»l«ture  of  New  Yoric  in  the  lununer  of  1782,  dlcUrW,  that  the&n^denT 

or''VSit''?™H:'J"».SS2^  ?Irie»,^J'»^  P"'"  *°  provide'.  reVenueYorh^Tf, 
J  .v^*..  ""VW  "•*"  '^*^  '""^  *«»"»  wtabliihed  and  productive  aourcea- 
and  that  it  wouldTw  advitable  for  Congreea  to  recomme™ ti  Uto  Stite.  to  ^11 
•  rjMal  Convention  to  revise  and  amind  the  Confederation  " 
iraJEaf!^t^n?{-^*^^^.'"'*'  ?«'«'y'".  'w  ^^^^^  -»  Th,  NmHomal  For- 
vSl  IMlS6)°'p!^  ^"  -*"•«*«»«.  conducted  by  Longacre  and  Herring, 

„.-U5!  '""o^  sentence  it  rapplied  in  the  tnuucript:  "It  i.  Iw  many  here 
roggeetod  a.  a  voy  neccMary  .tep  for  CongreM  to  take,  the  caflinTon  the 

^  f«  »  ^iJ^r^n^T  *"'  •?'"  P.°II~"  "'  ■*^"»«?  the  ConZemion! 
•o  far  ae  to  enable  CongrcM  to  execute  with  nioi«  energy,  effect  and  vinor  th^ 
power,  aaaigned  to  it.  than  it  appears  by  experience  tl»tthCT  ain  do  luS^r  th! 
present  state  of  thing..-  The  IrtteT^feWto  is  am^  ^7uM^n  ^rs  in 
the  ManuKript  Division  of  the  Library  of  Gongres*.  -»"»"«•  P»I«"  m 

The  tianseript  here  inserto  the  following:  •'  I  hold  it  for  a  maxim  that 
Ste^'^L^Jf  ^***"^  I'v^rS***'  **•  their^ety  againi  fowi^n^?;  „d 
^If^Kf"  S^'S".  '"1?***  the  perpetuity  and  efflcacy  of  the  present  system 
«wnot  be  confided  n.  The  quesUon.  therefore,  is.  in  what  mode,  and  at^riut 
SS?"?-*.  Ww1S*:^;°i  '"  .upplymgthe  defers  ought  ST  Srde*-X 
■Jw,  r*«  Wrtttmgt  of  Jam-  Madiion,  Hunt,  Editor,  to!.  H   (1901),  pp.  99. 

«T  'P*J*I'*"P\i?«'™'*"«  "I»  "86"  reads  as  fol' >W8  in  the  transcrint- 
Zi«.^  ^*ZJI  U!^L  ^"^  Webster  who«,  political  and  otherS, . 
«™..^.  t1^*  him  known  to  the  public,  proposed,  in  one  of  his  publica- 
Hi,^i  A-7..^f^.  "*  8?"™°«t  wfiich  shoulrfart,  not  <«  the  States,  tot 
d^n^ly  on  individuals,  and  vest  in  Congre«  full  power  to  carry  its  la^  iSS 

J  ..*^**i;  'l"'  ''*•  ^<"»»~'  Portrait  Oallery  of  Ditituuiihtd  Amvrioami  con- 
ducted by  Longacre  and  Herring,  Vol.  11  (1?35)'  p.  4.  ^^""^  ^-enowM.  con- 


10    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

general  chawcter  that  appear,  to  have  been  realiwd,  &  the  rtate  rf 
Se  pubUc  mind  awakened  by  it  had  attracted  the  particular  attentwn 
rf  Cong!  and  favored  the  idea  there  of  a  Convention  with  fuller  pow- 
era  for  amending  the  Confederacy.*  ^       .        j  .._♦.„ 

It  doe.  not  appear  that  in  any  of  these  case.,  the  reformed  system 
was  to  be  otherwiae  wnctioned  than  by  the  Legislative  autW  of  the 
States;  nor  whether  or  how  far,  a  change  was  to  be  made  in  the 
atmcture  of  the  Depository  of  Federal  power.. 

The  act  of  Virg«  providing  for  the  Convention  at  Fhila*,  wa. 
«icceeded  by  appointment,  from »  other  State,  a.  their  ^P^^ 
were  aoembled,  the  appointments  being  elections  from  the  mort  ex- 
perienced &  highest  standing  Citi«na.  Bh.  I.  was  the  only  ex<jption 
to  a  compliance  with  the  recommendation  from  Annapohs,  weU  known 
to  have  been  swayed  by  an  obdurate  adherence  to  an  advantage  which 
her  position  gave  her  of  taUng  her  "«8hbor.Jlm,'  their  c^um^ 
tion  of  imported  supplies,  an  advantage  which  it  wa.  foremen 
woL  be  taken  from  her  by  a  revi«d  of  the  "  Article,  of  Confedera- 

^'^'as  the  pub.  mind  had  been  ripened  for  a  salutary  Reform  of  the 
pol  System,  in  the  interval  between  the  propowl  &  the  meeting,  of 
Com-!  at  Annapolis,  the  interval  between  the  last  event,  and  ttie  meet- 
inir  of  Dep!  at  PhiU  had  continued  to  develop  more  &  more  the  nece^ 
sity  &  the  extent  of  a  Systematic  provision  for  the  preservation  and 
Gov.*  of  the  Union;  among  the  ripening  incident,  wa.  the  I°»°"^ 
tion  of  Shays,»  in  Mass'?  against  her  Gov';  which  wa.  with  difficulty 
.uppressed,  notwithstanding  the  influence  on  the  iMurgent.  of  an 
apprehended  interposition  of  the  Fed?  troops. 

At  the  date  of  the  Convention,  the  aapect  ft  retrospect  of  the  pol: 
condition  of  the  U.  S.  could  not  but  fill  the  pub.  mind  with  a  gloom 
which  wa.  relieved  only  by  a  hope  that  so  select  a  Body  would  devise 
an  adequate  remedy  for  the  existing  and  pnwpective  evil,  so  un- 

pressively  demanding  it  j  v    *i,.  „.„«. 

It  was  seen  that  the  pubUc  debt  rendered  so  sacred  by  the  cause 
in  which  it  had  been  incurred  remained  without  any  provision  for  ita 
payment.  The  reiterated  and  elaborate  efforts  of  Cong,  to  procure 
from  the  States  a  more  adequate  power  to  raise  the  means  of  payment 
had  failed.    The  effect  of  the  ordinary  requisitions  of  Congress  had 

'In  the  tranKript  alter  the  word  " <>'°'f «^ "  *'"«  *f "'^„J'tS^ 

iSoi-::!^  v%rK%e^Tt^=7^«  ^^^^^^^^^ 

Dropoiition  for  such  a  Convention  had  been  made.  ..,,„_.. 

propue.   "  .<the"  U  inserted  in  the  transcript  after     from. 

•Sll  SSa  "."  is  croBi^  off  the  word  "Shays"  in  the  tra««»ipt. 


PBEFACE  TO  DEBATES  ^ 

only  dupUyed  the  inefflciency »  of  the  tatbX  making  them  j  none  of  th« 
SUtes  having  duly  complied  with  them,  wme  having  failed  altogether 
or  nearly  eo ;  and  •  in  one  inrtanee,  that  of  N.  Jen^  • «  compliance  waa 
expre«ly«  refuMd;  nor  waa  more  yielded  to  the  eipoatolatiou  of 
member,  of  Cong-  deputed  to  her  Legialature.  than  a  mere  repeal  of 
the  law,  without  a  compliance,    [see  letter  of  Oraywn  to  J  M  • 

The  want  of  Auth?  in  Cong?  to  regulate  Commerce  had  produced  in 
^I^^/TfH  ^!^^y  «•  B-  •  »onopoliring  policy  injuriou.  to 
the  tn^e  of  the  U.  S.  and  dertmctive  to  their  navigation ;  the  im- 
becilicity  Mid  anticipated  dia»lution  of  the  Confederacy  extinguidrt 
aU^  Wwhemiiona  of  a  Countervailing  policy  on  the  part  of  the  U. 

The  aame  want  of  a  general  power  over  Commense,  led  to  an  exercise 
^  the  power  wparately,  by  the  States,  w*  not  only  proved  abortive 
but  engendered  nval,  conflicting  and  angiy  regulations.  Besides  the 
vam  attempts  to  supply  their  respective  treasuries  by  imposts,  which 
tarned  their  commerce  into  the  neighbouring  ports,  and  to  co^srce  a 
relaxation  of  the  British  monopoly  of  the  W.  Ind?  navigation,  which 
wss  attempted  by  VirgT  [see  the  Journal  of  ]  •  the  8^^  hiving 
SJHL    r/""??    commerce,    taxed    &    irritated    the    adjoining 

Some  of  the  States,  aa  Connecticut,  taxed  importo'  as  from  Mass*! 

writt«  abolw  H^  P*  **•  '~'*  "*  *•  "'"•^  out  sad  the  word  "which* 
T.Utin.  th.  conduct  o/^1e«y  ^ffJu*:  ^  ^^J  °'  "^  ^'  ""^ 

•uwly  men  of  more  cMd"  tSHf ,«.  ^  ^ti^^'  P"*  ^*'«"t»  ^ 
of  debU  in  so  many  wort i^ill  we  .;rJJ^^?^tS*5*  "ff^^  *"'  "  abolition 
the  decent  k  speciow  pwteiJI  of  .  rf.S^J?J?.-V  ^  *'"  ^  ••""•  ^^^  »»<«" 


U   DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDBBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

higher  than  import.  Ten  from  O.  B.  of  w-J  M»tf  «»mpl««jd 

to  Virg^  and  dolabUe..  to  other  SUte..     [fije  letter  of  J_  li^    Ib 

Ld,7inrtance.«ofN.T.N.J.Pt*M«y?["e        ]  '  the  n.vig^ 

tion  law.  treated  the  Citi«n.  •  other  State.  ^  aben^ 

In  ceruin  cam  the  autM  of  the  Confederacy  w..dto««ded,- 

m  violation,  not  only  of  the  Treaty  of  peace-  but  of  Treat.-  with 
France  &  Holland,  which  were  complained  of  to  Cong! 

In  other  ca««  the  Ped!  Auth?  wa.  violated  by  Treatte.  *  war.  with 
Indian.,  a.  by  Geo:  by  troop,  rai-d  &  kept  up  w.tW  the  consent  ej 
Cong!  aL  by  Ma««!  by  compact,  with}  the  con«nt  of  Cong!  u  between 
P:;f  .Td  N.  Jer^y.  and  between  Virg!  *  Majy^.  From  ^  Le^ : 
Journal,  of  Virg-  it  appear.,  that  a  vote  «'"»"«j,'»  'J^' * 
■action  of  Cong!  wa.  followed  by  •  vote  ag^  the  commmiieatioo  of 

the  Compact  to  Cong!  .   ^    «.  .  •  i.*j^  «*  Pm, 

In  the  internal  adminirtration  of  the  State,  a  violation  of  Can- 
tract,  had  become  f amUiar  in  the  form  of  depreciated  paper  m»a»m 
legal  tender,  of  property  mbrtituted  for  money,  of  Inf**"^"* ''^J 
„d  of  the  ^cJion.  of  the  Court,  of  Juitice;  ^though  evident  thg 
S  .uch  interference,  affected  the  right,  of  other  Strte^  rdativdy 
creditor*  a.  weU  a.  Citiwn.  Creditor,  within  the  State 
^o^g  the  defect,  which  had  been  «verely  felt  wa.  that  of  .  urf- 
formity  in  caw.  requiring  it.  a.  law.  of  naturali«Uon,»  bankrupt^ 
;  Coe«ive  authority  operating  on  individual  and  a  guaranty  of  the 
internal  tranquility  of  the  State 

^  naS^  con^uence.'  of  thi.  dirtracted  and  did>e«rt»in«  «»- 
dition  of  the  union,  the  Ped?  AutK  had  cea«d  to  be  '^P^^^"^: 
and  diBpomtion.^  shswn  there,  particularly  in  G.  B.,  to  tate  ad- 
vantage of  it.  imbecility,  and  to  npeculate  on  >»• 'PP^^J^^^^^"^" 
lauThome  it  had  lost  aU  confidence  &  credit;  the  unrtable  and  un- 
juat  career  of  the  State,  had  atoo  forfeited  the  respect  &  confidence 
essential  to  order  and  good  GovJ.  involving  a  general  decay  of    on- 
S^nce  &  credit  between  man  &  man.    It  wa.  found  n^o'eove'  *hat 
those  least  partial  to  popular  GovJ.  or  mort  d«t.-urtfu  lof  its  efficacy 
were  yielding  to  anticipation.,  that  from  an  increa»  of  the  confusion  a 
Govi  might  result  more  congenial  with  their  taste  or  their  opinions, 
,~„  ,,^,  „,  -iven  in  M»dl«on'i  letter  to  Jeffer»on,  January  22,  178«. 

.  ^'Zl  ^ot^TiJ'^  in  tL|r.n«.ript  af te,  «  citizen." 

'^l  Tord.  "a  natu^TcXquence"  are  .uUtituted  in  the  transcript  (or 
""^^^I'S-Tre"  is  inserted  in  the  tr.n«ript  after  " di.po.ition.." 


PBEFACB  TO  DEBATES  u 

wUkt  thow  moM  deroted  to  the  principle,  aad  fonns  of  BeDubUe.. 

Bxperiaen^  Md  «ix.ou«  for  .  .ytem  that  w-  .void  Ui«  inefflowy  of. 
m.t«  confederacy  without  pacing  into  the  oppoeite  «t«Z  «/! 
conaoLdated  gov.  it  wa.  icnown  that  there  were'EdSlTZlj 
betrayed  a  biaa  towards  Monarchy  [«»  Knox  to  G  W  A  h?m  tJ 
J^]  (MarahaU'a  life  •)  and  the.,  hai  idwayaCleVi^ 
Jble  to  a  partition  of  the  Union  into  «,veral  ConfederlSea^uler 
to«n  .  bettor  chance  of  figuring  on  a  Sectional  tL!?™  or  thi  fhl 

to.  momu^hic^  con«,lidaUon.  The  idea  of  a*  di«nemberment  h^ 
wewtly  made  ito  appearance  in  the  Newapapen. 

»«ZJ.T  *i!.*^t''?'  "••  *''«™i««.  the  diaeuM  u>d  the  ominou. 
SST^ihf  '*'"?  li"  Conv«.tion  wew  to  provide  .  rem^TZ 
whkh  ought  never  to  be  overlooked  in  expounding  A  .nnrecilti^  th. 
Conjt.toUon.1  Charter  the  remedy  that  w«  prodded. ^'^''  ^' 

Qov«  for  Sf  TTnl°  ^r'^''  ^^'  '"^'"^  P«'^*P*  °'  •  Conatitutiond 
Wov.  for  the  Union  [organized  into  the  regular  Departmenta  with 

J»^{  ^f,'  "*"*  *"  *^"^  <»"«P»^  *  -overeign  character  wa. 

oopy  of  the  letter  u  here  inaerted.  «a«uu.pu,  ■ 

The  feature  in  the  letter*  which  veated  in  the  ffener.]  An»K^  . 

n!I?,l\K-  ^^  f^P'"*'  **'''*  prevented  coUisiona  between  the 
part.  4  the  whole  and  between  the  pi^te  them^^lvea.  It  w«  ZLled 
^the  ^bstituUon.  of  an  elective  „d  re.ponrible  auth^ri  ™K 

«^^*°^"'^°°^"*  "»•'  ^«°l<i  *»oid  the  appelTwce  ev« 
of  .departure  from  the  principle  of  •  BepubUcaninnK^o't^^ 
object  was  «,  viewed  in  the  Convention.  Ld  th^  on?t!^lJ^Z 
^^^^c^usny  divided,  it  wm  finali;  A  jnaUy "tnlned  Z  7." 

June.  ^IMB  to^om*.  J^e^^orth^f-^f  ■•follow.:   "the  letters  of 
R««ioIpl.  of  the  eighrt  ofA^H^nd  to  Q.~«^*\?'J*''''I'  *»  Oo''™>' 

Noe-ralndrprslo-ro's""-  "^  *"*"  '•»»«"  -  Appe«iix  to  Debate,.   11. 
tranj^."""'  """  '•«^'"  "'v.  be«.  changed  to  "thete  letter."  In  th. 
•n.«  word,  "the  principle  of"  are  ooitted  in  the  tra„«=ript 


14    DEBATES  IN  THE  PBDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  178t 

il  .p  Jt  ftT  oth«  ohi^tUnm,  It  w«  not  pmtlcble  ««ng  «  W 
ISi  to^mlg  in  n^TbT.  and  eni^itln..  ««h  of  th^  «»  W 
S^  iStrS  the  propo-d  negative,  tho  obj^rti  of  It  wf  l.ft 
u  finally  piwidwl  for  In  the  Cowtitution.!  •  ..««,^  ♦« 

On  i  «riTd  of  the  Virginia  Deputie.  at  Phila*  «  OM^J^  ^ 
them  that  from  tha  early  and  pn,minent  part  ^ken  b^tiut  SUtota 
bringing  about  the  Convention  «>»e  iniUativeirtep  «»^  »J  "J^ 
ST  UTem.  The  Be«.l«tlon.  introduced  by  Governor  R«f  o>P^^«^ 
th-  r^mlt  of  a  ConiulUtion  on  the  rabj^rtj  with  .  •  undentandmf 
Slt^  1^  aU^hTSeTnti-  «tir1.v  oP«ito  the  light,  of  dl.«^ 
„d  freTto  concur  in  any  alteration.,  or  -^^i^""^^*^' Z 
flection,  and  judgment,  might  approve.  The  »T*  ,  ♦i.t^n-I! 
J^^  diewCme  the  bad.  on  which  the  P'o^^iinf-  <>'  ««  Cjn- 
;^on  commence!,  and  to  the  developmenU.  variation.  "^  «^^^ 
Z.  of  which  the  plan  of  GovJ  propoaed  by  the  Convention  may  be 

*^;  curiority  I  had  felt  during  my  re^arche.  into  the  Htatory  of 
the  mrS!S«i-.ed  Confederaeiea.  P-T^^^^^lSSS 
and  the  deficiency  I  found  in  the  mean,  of  Mtiafjrtog  it  more  e^u^ 
In  what  related  to  the  proc«.,  the  principle.,  the  reawn.,  *  the  an- 
tici^So^i^ch  Previled  in  the  formation  of  f^^^^^^^^^^Z 
to  Drewrvi  a.  far  a.  I  could  an  exact  account  of  what  MiP**  P«  '^ 
SeTnv^iL  whiht  «ecuting  it.  trurt   wHh  Jbem-Sn^Jj^J 
which  I  wa.  duly  Imprewed.  as  I  w«i  with  •  the  gratification  P«»mi*d 
t^^:TJjiy  bj  an  -thentic  «hibiUon  ^J^^^^^fo 
inna  &  the  reaMuing.  from  which  the  new  Syitem  «tf  «ov.  wa.  w 
SvtirplTarrt™cture*org«H«tion.    Nor  wa.  I  un.w.«  of 
Ijr^nrofTch  a  contribution  to  the  fund  of  material,  for  the  H* 
S^  of  a  Conrtitution  on  which  would  be  rt^ed  the  h«PP">«^ 
pjple  great  even  in  ita  infancy,  and  po«ibly  the  cu«>  of  Lib«rty 

*'T.1;:lr:  of  the  t«h  I  had  a«med  I  ch«e  a  -* Jn  Jront  «^ 

the  priding  member,  with  the  f^^^'^'f.ZriJ^lni^ 
hand..    In  thi.  favorable  pomtion  for  hearing  id  that  P"«^' J  ""^^^ 
in  terms  Iceible  &  in  abrevialion.  ft  mark.  inteUigible  to  myse W  what 
wa^  ^d  UTthe  Chair  or  .poken  by  the  member.;  and  Icing  no 
r  moment  nnn.o>.«arilv  between  the  adjournment  ft  rea..embhng  of 

substitute    the   anaendt 


•The    word*   "see   note    for        for    this    erasure 


The 


PBEFACB  TO  DEBATES  l| 

tb«  ConnBtiOB  X  ww  cublMl  to  write  oat  my  daily  not«  fiM  bim 
•••  pew  In  th«  «st«it  And  form  pnmntd  in  mj  own  hand  oa  taj 


l«  nJ5!  ^T^*  T~*^  "*  ***^  •  "^ ''"  »««*""le  aided 
by  vnetkm  ft  Igr  •  fuuliwity  with  the  style  »nd  the  tnUn  of  ob- 

•ervation  *  WMoning  which  ch«rMteri«ed  the  principd  K>e*ke«.    It 

Sl^tJJr  *";* '  r  r  "^' ' -^^  ^' ~' »«"  th«. ; 

cumM  fraction  of  an  hour  in  any  d^,  •©  that  I  could  not  have  loet 

•  •in^eei)eech,nnleaa  a  Tory  abort  one.   Inaert  the  Bemark  on  the - 
■Up  of  paper  marked  A«  -«»~«  on  «ie 

[It  may  be  proper  to  remark,  that,  wHh  a  veiy  f «w  eneptiona.  the 
■pwchee  were  neither  furniriied,  nor  reriaed,  nor  aanctioned,  by  the 
■peakeie,  bat  written  out  from  my  notee,  aided  by  the  freahneaa  of  my 
recollectiona.  A  further  remark  may  be  proper,  that  riew.  of  the 
•ubject  might  occarionally  be  preaented  in  the  speechea  and  pro- 
ceedinga,  with  a  Utent  reference  to  a  compromiae  on  aome  middle 

JITi'  ^^u*!?  ??*«-*«°"-  '"'«'  -PtioM  alluded  to  were.- 
«r«,  the  aketch  fumiahed  by  Mr.  Banc?  ph  of  hi.  .peech  on  the  in- 
troduction  of  hia  propoaitiona,  on  the  twenty-ni:.th  day  of  May 
•wondly  the  speech  of  Mr.  Hamilton,  who  happened  to  call  on  me 
when  putting  the  lart  hand  to  it,  and  who  acknowledged  its  fldeUty 
without  auggerting  more  than  a  very  few  verbal  alterationa  which 
were  made;  thirdly,  the  speech  of  Oouvemeur  Morris  on  the  second 
day  of  May,  which  was  communicated  to  him  on  a  like  occasion,  and 
who  acquiesced  in  it  without  even  a  verbal  change.  The  correctness  of 
bis  lanpiage  and  the  distinctness  of  hia  enunciation  were  particularly 
favorable  to  a  reporter.  The  speeches  of  Doctor  Franklin,  excepting 
a  few  brief  onea,  were  copied  from  the  written  ones  read  to  the  Con- 
vention  by  his  colleague.  Mr.  Wilson,  it  being  inconvenient  to  the 
•Doctor  to  remain  long  on  his  feet.]  • 

Of  the  ability  ft  intelligence  of  those  who  composed  the  Con- 
vention,  the  debatea  ft  proceedings  may  be  a  test;  as  the  character 
of  the  work  which  was  the  offspring  of  their  deliberations  must  be 
tested  by  the  experience  of  the  future,  added  to  that  of  the  nearly 
half  century  which  has  passed.* 

.'w!^!"'".''  jl!!!J.'"'  u  f**«  »*«•  "•■"  '•  «"»"t*d  »»  the  traiiKript. 

.  «  j/""?  1*°'"F     ••  om'tt*^  ta  the  tranicript.  '^ 

MacH«)B'«  direction  "Imert  the  Remark."  etc.  it  omitted  in  the  tr«nicript. 
.,i/^'  P""*"  ™''°**  '"  bmclcet.  it  copied  from  the  trmntcrint  -rtie 
original  notci  appear  to  have  been  lort  iince  Gilpin-a  edition.     ^'•"•"•Pt-     "• 

cental"  &''rhrtr.°n.^r%t'!'*"'  •""  '*"*'^"  ^  •'*^  *«  ""*  """'y  ■»'*  » 


16    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Rut  whatever  may  be  the  judgment  pronounced  on  the  competency 
of  ^e  a«M^to  oTL  Con-Jtution,  or  whatever  may  be  the  destmy, 

countiy]  * 


r     .    i_   i„.-krtB   is  copied   from   the   tT«Mcript 


The 


IB" 


J 


i:  -J 


If 


Mondajr  May  14«>'  1787  was  the  day  fixed  for  the  meetinp  of  the 
deputies  m  Convention  for  revising  the  federal  system  of  Government 
On  that  day  a  smaU  number  onJy  had  aswimbled.  Seven  States  were 
isot  convened  till, 

see  lifoteV*^  "'  ^^'  ^^^  *^*  foUowing  members  «  appeared  to  wit: 
AT.?i  ^f  Ma^usietts  Rufus  King.    N.  York  Robert  Tatesi* 

f„„"^^^  »  ^-  ^'"'"^'  ^""^^  ^"■'•'y'  ^^*°»  ChurchiU  Houl 
ton,  William  Patterson.    Pennsylvania,  Robert  Morris,  Thomas  Fits- 

"^^^1.^  ^^^'*  <^^^«™eur  Morris.  Drfairare,  George 
Read,  raeUrd  Basset,*  Jacob  Broome.  Virginia,  George  WaiiingtoS^ 
Edmund  Rando  ph.  John  Blair,  James  Madison.  Teorge  ZT 

Wilham  Rjehardson  Davie,  Richard  Dobbs  Spaight,*  Hugh  WiS 

?Liip-  1!.'^^°'*^^"*"'^'  ^*^^"  Cotesworth  Pinckney, 
Charles  Pmckney,*  Pierce  Butler.    <?«<irj,ia,  William  Few 

JMP  RoBEBT  MoBBis  informed  the  members  assembled  that  by  the  in- 
sanction  &  in  behalf,  of  the  deputation  of  Pen'  he  pronoe^  Q*^^; 

r^S^VS  «"*  """^'^  ^  "^«^  '"  P^^lenlTth^! 
ZnlVi.  f,  J^  K?"'"^*  -«o»ded  the  motion;  expressing  his  con- 
fidence tbrt  the  choice  would  be  unanimous,  and  observing  that  tte 
presence  of  Gen.'  Washington  forbade  any  observations  on  the  o<l 
oon  which  might  otherwise  be  proper. 

General  WA8Hm<mm  was  accordingly  unanimously  elected  by 

th.  ^^t°of*^hi'S^i"S  tX^^^"^"^  !«.  been  read  .«.,„rt 
ence  between  M«d«.rar'/«S-i_iv_  ««•  Library  of  Congress,  and  every  differ- 
exc.pt  tJ^S^riKd'lffi^  SSI''!^'''*  S°?.  *^'  *~>»^Pt  h*»  Wn  noted 
breviatfoVXfort.  aS  fl^,  TracS.tTo^^J^'**""-  '^^i^  (including  ab- 

and  eSy^tra  wort^ h^J^Jl!!?  it,*".  ^f"^'  ""^Z  »«»«».tio«- 


18     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

ballot  and  conducted  to  the  Chair  by  M'.  R.  Morris  and  M:  Rutlidge; 
5^:  which  in  a  very  emphatic  manner  he  tb»ked  tiie  C«-ent.oo 
for  the  honor  they  had  conferred  on  him,  reminded  them  of  he 
novelty  of  the  «cene  of  business  in  which  he  was  to  act.  lamented 
Sis  want  of  better  qualifications,  and  claimed  the  indulgence  of  the 
Hou^e  towards  the  Involuntary  errors  which  his  inexperience  might 

"'' MThe  nomination  came  with  particular  grace  'rom  Penna^  DocJ 
FranSn  a°one  could  have  been  thought  of  as  a  competitor  The  Doct 
wirt^self  to  have  made  the  nomination  of  General  W"hington 
Z  th^rtate  of  the  weather  and  of  his  health  confined  hmi  to  hia 

^'"''S  Wilson  moved  that  a  Secretary  be  appointed,  and  nominated 
W.  Temple  Franklin. 

Pnl  Hamilton  nominated  Major  Jackson.  , ,.     „      ^ 

ot  fhtbTot  Mair  Jackson  had  5  votes  &  M-.  Prankhn  2  vot^^ 

On  reading  the  credentials  of  the  deputies  it  was  noticed  that 

tho^  f^m  Delaware  were  prohibited  from  changing  the  artiek  m 

^Confederation  establishing  an  equality  of  vc.es  J-ongJe  SUJ^. 

The  appointment  of  a  Committee,  consisting  of  Mess?  Wytne, 

XT      iL  &  C  Pinckney.  on  the  motion  of  Mr  C.  PmCKNir,'  to  prepare 

s^dlir^lesloS  was  the  only  remaining  step  taken  on  thi. 

day.  

Monday  May  28.*— 

*From  Mass*?  Nat:  Gorham  &  Caleb  Strong  F~,n  Connecticut 
nii^r  Flseworth  From  Delaware,  Gunnmg  Bedford.  Froni  Mary- 
land JmcsSnen^.  From  Penn.  B.  Franklin.  George  Clymer. 
TM  Mifflin  &  Jared  Ingersol  took  their  seats. 

m1  Wythe  from  the  Committee  for  preparing  rules  made  a  report 
nrViiPh  pmoloved  the  deliberations  of  this  day.  _ 

Jp  Sg  obiected  to  one  of  the  rules  in  the  Report  autiior^mg 
anv  member  to  caU  for  the  yeas  &  nays  and  have  them  entered  on 
JJjrinntes  He  urged  that  as  the  acts  of  the  Convention  were  not 
Tbrnd  t  Co^i^Sts,  it  was  unnecessary  to  exhibit  this  evidence 
of  the  votes;  and  improper  as  changes  of  opinion  would  be  frequent 

•  See  footnote  '  on  page  17. Pincknev"  i»  tranipoied  in  the 

tranS^t^BSTatTr^i^rs:"^?^  ^l^lu^J^'^^clr..^^--  on^He  motion 

of  Mr^.  P««H?^y'„«°"?i^l,';//;„trted  in  the  tran«;ript. 

.^^tC/ds  "in  Com':ru,rirrhere  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  MAT  28,  1787  ]f 

m  the  conne  of  the  bnaineaB  &  would  flU  the  minates  with  contra- 
dictions. 

CoL  Mabon  seconded  the  objection;  adding  that  such  a  record 
of  the  opinions  of  members  would  be  an  obstacle  to  a  change  of 
them  on  conviction;  and  in  case  of  its  being  hereafter  promulged 
must  furnish  handles  to  the  adTetsariea  of  the  Besult  of  tH  Meeting 

The  proposed  rule  was  rejected  nem.  contradicente.  The  standing 
rules* »  agreed  to  were  as  foUow:  [see  the  Journal  ft  copy  here  the 
printed  rules]  * 

[vi*.  •  A  House  to  do  business  shall  consist  of  the  Deputies  of  not 
less  than  seven  States;  and  aU  questions  shaU  bo  decided  by  the 
greater  number  of  these  which  shall  be  fully  represented:  but  a  less 
number  than  seven  may  adjourn  from  day  to  day. 

Immediately  after  the  President  shaU  have  tkken  the  chair  and 
the  members  their  seats,  the  minutes  of  the  preceding  day  shaU  be 
read  by  the  Secretary. 

Every  member,  rising  to  speak,  shaU  address  the  Piwaident-  and 
whilst  he  ShaU  be  speaking,  none  shaU  pass  between  them,  or' hold 
discourse  with  another,  or  read  a  book,  pamphlet  or  paper,  printed 
or  manuscnp^-and  of  two  members  rising*  at  the  same  time,  the 
President  shaU  name  him  who  shaU  be  first  heard. 

A  member  shaU  not  speak  oftener  than  twice,  without  special 
leave,  upon  the  same  question;  and  not  the  second  time,  before  every 
other,  who  had  been  sUent,  shaU  have  been  heard,  if  he  choose  to 
^>eak  upon  the  subject. 

A  motion  made  and  seconded,  shaU  be  repeated,  and  if  written, 
as  It  shall  be  when  any  member  shaU  so  require,  read  aloud  by  the 

'V.^^^^op^  Md  other,  from  PemtyWuL,  that  the  Urw  site,  .h™^ 
unite  in  firmly  refusing  to  the  imall  atatei  an  eonll  »«♦-   5!  „^  *^^ 

'  Madiion's  footnote  reference  mark  after  the  won!  "tiiI««»  <•  ..i...^  i    n. 

rrf'st  'JZ  s^t^if  ;t"tt'hijir4°'  ^-  "-^-  ^^  -  -• 

to  inJS^*'"''  '*"^'""  ^'  •"°"***  '"«"  ^  trawcript  and  the  word  "Rnle.  " 
I  The  word  "vU."  ia  omitted  in  the  tranecript. 
The  worda     to  apealc "  are  inaerted  in  the  tranacript  after  "  riaing." 


20      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Secretary,  before  it  ihall  be  debated;  and  may  be  withdrawn  at  any 
time  before  the  vote  upon  it  shall  have  been  declared. 

Ordere  of  the  day  dudl  be  read  next  after  the  minutes,  and  either 
discussed  or  postponed,  before  any  other  business  shall  be  introduced. 

When  a  debate  shall  arise  upon  a  question,  no  motion,  other  thm 
to  amend  the  question,  to  commit  it,  or  to  postpone  the  debate  shaU 

be  received.]  ,  ^   ,  _ 

[A  question  which  is  complicated,  shall,  at  the  request  of  any  mem- 
ber, bo  divided,  and  put  separately  on » the  propositions,  of  which  it 

is  compounded.  .   n  t. 

The  determination  of  a  question,  altho'  fully  debated,  shaU  be 
postponed,  if  the  deputies  of  any  State  desire  it  until  the  next  day. 

A  writing  which  contains  any  matter  brought  on  to  be  considered, 
shall  be  read  once  throughout  for  information,  then  by  paragraphs 
to  be  debated,  and  again,  with  the  amendments,  if  any,  made  on  the 
second  reading;  and  afterwards,  the  question  shaU  be  put  on*  the 
whole,  amended,  or  approved  in  its  original  form,  as  the  case  shall  be. 

»  Committees  shaU  be  appointed  by  ballot;  and»  the  members  who 
have  the  greatest  number  of  ballots,  altho'  not  a  majority  of  the 
votes  present,  shall  •  be  the  Committee-  When  two  or  more  membere 
have  an  equal  number  of  votes,  the  member  standing  first  on  the 
list  in  the  order  of  taking  down  the  baUots,  shall  be  preferred. 

A  member  may  be  called  to  order  by  any  other  member,  as  well 
as  by  the  President;  and  may  be  allowed  to  explain  his  conduct  or 
expressions  supposed  to  be  reprehensible.—  And  aU  questions  of 
order  shall  be  decided  by  the  President  without  appeal  or  debate. 

Upon  a  question  to  adjourn  for  the  day,  which  may  be  made  at 
any  time,  if  it  be  second^,  the  question  shall  be  put  without  a 

When  the  House  shall  adjourn,  every  member  shftll  stand  in  his 
place,  until  the  President  pass  him.]* 

A  letter  from  sundry  persons  of  the  State  of  Rho.  Island  addressed 
to  the  Honorable"  The  Chairman  of  the  General  Convention  was  pr^ 
sented  to  the  Chair  by  M?  Gov^  Morbis,  and  being  read,  was  ordered 
to  Ue  on  the  table  for  further  consideration.    [For  the  letter  see  Note 

in  the  Appendix]' 

MThl  word  "  upon  "  is  subrtitutod  for  "  on  "  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  word  "  that "  ia  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  shall  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  See  footnote  '  on  page  19.  ,  .  >  .     .^v    *..-«.,«..♦ 

•  The  words  "  the  honorable  "  are  omitted  in  the  transCTipt. 

•The  footnote  in  the  transcript  reads  as  follows:  .^oj  the  Jetter.  ■« 
Appendix  No.  blank."  The  text  referred  to  is  pnnUd  in  the  Appendix  to 
Debates,  III,  p.  595. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  MAT  29,  1787  21 

iP  BuTLis  moved  that  the  Honae  provide  agTf  interrnption  of 
basinen  by  abaence  of  membera,  and  against  licentioua  publicationa 
of  their  proceeding*— to  which  was  added  by— M'.  Sfaioht— a  motion 
to  provide  that  on  the  one  hand  t^  Houae  might  not  be  precluded 
by  a  vote  upon  any  question,  from  revising  the  aubject  matter  of 
it,  when  they  see  cause,  nor,  on  the  other  hand,  be  led  too  hastily 
to  rescind  a  decision,  which  waa  the  repult  of  mature  discussion.— 
Whereupon  it  was  ordered  that  these  moti(Hia  be  referred  to»  the 
consideration  of  the  Committee  appointed  to  draw  np  the  standing 
rules  and  that  the  Committee  make  report  thereon. 

Adj-J  till  tomorrow » 10.  GClock. 


Tuesday  Mat  29.* 

John  Dickenson,  and  Elbridge  Gerry,  the  former  from  Delaware, 
the  latter  from  Mass*!  took  their  seats.  The  following  rules  were 
added,  on  the  report  of  M!  Wythe  from  the  Committee  [see  the 
Journal] — ♦ 

Addit:  jnal  rules,    [see  preceding  page]* 

That  no  member  be  absent  from  the  House,  so  as  to  interrupt  the 
representation  of  the  State,  without  leave. 

That  Committees  do  not  sit  whilst  the  House  shall  be  or  ouirht 
to  be,  sitting. 

That  no  copy  be  taken  of  ar '  entry  on  the  journal  during  the 
sitting  of  the  House  without  leav^  of  the  House. 

That  members  only  be  permitted  to  inspect  the  journal. 

That  nothing  spoken  in  the  House  be  printed,  or  otherwise  pub- 
lished or  communicated  without  leave. 

That  a  motion  to  reconsider  a  matter  which  had  »  been  determined 
by  a  majority,  may  be  made,  with  leave  unanimously  given,  on  the 
same  day  on  which  the  vote  passed;  but  otherwise  not  without  one 
day  s  previous  notice:  in  which  last  caae,  if  the  House  agree  to  the 
reconsideration,  some  future  day  shall  be  assigned  for  the*  purpose. 

an  C.  PiNKNEY  moved  that  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  super- 
intend the  Minutes. 


I  The  word  "for"  ie  robrtitutH  in  the  transcript  for  the  word  "to." 
•The  word  "at"  ii  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
Tlie  words  "In  Convention "  are  here  inserted  in  the  tr8:;script. 
.«.«i!Mr'"'*v"T"°"'."I"*'  *''*  Journal]-"  and  "  fsee  preclding  page] 
are  omitted  in  the  transcript  as  are  also  the  words  "Additional  rules." 
,  ij*  ^°^^     "*«     '"  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  had  " 
T'le  word  "  that "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  the." 


22     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

M'.  Gov:  MoBUs  objected  to  it.    The  entry  of  the  proceedinge  of 
the  Convention  belonged  to  the  Secretiry  as  their  impartial  officer. 
A  committee  might  have  an  interest  &  biaa  in  moulding  the  entry 
according  to  their  opinions  and  wiihes. 
The  motion  was  negatived,  5  noes,  4  ays. 
W  Randolph  then  opened  the  main  business. 
[Here  insert  his  speech »  including  his  resolutions.]  • 
(Mr  B.  Speech  A.  to  be  inserted  Tuesday  May  29) » 
He  expressed  his  regret,  that  it  should  fall  to  him,  rather  than 
those,  who  were  of  longer  standing  in  life  and  poUtical  experience, 
to  open  the  great  subject  of  their  mission.    But,  as  the  convention 
had  originated  from  Virginia,  and  hu  colleagues  supposed  that  so--ne 
proposition  was  expected  from  them,  they  had  imposed  this  task 

on  him. 

He  then  commented  on  the  difficulty  of  the  crisis,  and  the  necessity 
of  preventing  the  fulfilment  of  the  prophecies  of  the  American 
downfal. 

He  observed  that  in  revising  the  foederal  system  we  ought  to 
inquire  1.'  into  the  properties,  which  such  a  government  ought  to 
possess,  2.'  the  defects  of  the  confederation,  3.»  the  danger  of  our  situa- 
tion &  4."  the  remedy. 

1.  The  Character  of  such  a  government  ought  to  secure  l.»  against 
foreign  invasion:  2.»  against  dissentions  between  members  of  the 
Union,  or  seditions  in  particular  states:  3.*  to  procure  to  the  several 
States,  various  blessings,  of  which  an  isolated  situation  was  incapable : 
4.'-  ♦  to  be  able  to  defend  itself  against  incroachment:  &  5.*  to  be  para- 
mount to  the  state  constitutions. 

2.  In  speaking  of  the  defects  of  the  confederation  he  profeisscd 
a  high  respect  for  its  authors,  and  considered  them,  as  having  done 
all  that  patriots  could  do,  in  the  then  infancy  of  the  science,  of 
constitutions,  &  of  confederacies,— when  the  inefficiency  of  requisi- 
tions was  unknown— no  commercial  discord  had  arisen  among  any 
Btates— no  rebellion  had  appeared  as  in  Mass?— foreign  debts  had  not 
become  urgent— the  havoc  of  paper  money  had  not  been  foreseen— 
treaties  had  not  been  violated— and  perhaps  nothing  better  could  be 
obtained  from  the  jealousy  of  the  states  with  regard  to  their  sover- 
eignty. 


*  The  gpeech  iB  ia  Randolph'i  handwriting. 

■  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  flgnres  indicated  bv  the  reference  mark  •  are  changed  in  the  transcript 
to  "  first."  "  secondly,"  "  thirdly,"  etc. 

*  The  words  "  it  should  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  MAT  29,  1787  23 

He  then  procMded  to  enumerate  the  defecta :  l.»  that  the  con- 
federation produced  no  aecurity  againit  foraign  invuion;  congreia' 
not  being  permitted  to  prevent  »  w»r  nor  to  aupport  it  by  their  own 
authority— Of  this  he  cited  many  ezamplea;  moat  of  which  tended 
to  shew,  that  they  could  not  cauae  infractiona  of  treatiea  or  of  the 
law  of  nations,  to  be  piiniahed:  that  particular  atatea  mi^t  by  their 
conduct  provoke  war  without  controul ;  and  that  neither  militia  nor 
draughts  being  fit  for  defence  on  such  occasiona,  inlistments  only 
could  be  successful,  and  these  could  not  be  executed  without  money. 

2.*  that  the  fcederal  government  could  not  check  the  quarrela 
between  states,  nor  a  rebellion  in  any,  not  having  constitutional  power 
nor  means  to  interpose  according  to  the  exigency : 

3.»  that  there  were  many  advantages,  which  the  U.  S.  might 
acquire,  which  were  not  attainable  under  the  confederation— such  aa 
a  productive  impost— counteraction  of  the  commercial  regulations  of 
other  nations — pushing  of  commerce  ad  libitum — tec  &c. 

4.^  that  the  foederal  government  could  not  defend  itself  against 
the  *  incroachmenta  from  the  states. 

5.^  that  it  was  not  even  paramount  to  the  state  constitutions, 
ratified,  as  it  was  in  may  of  the  states. 

3,  He  next  reviewed  the  danger  of  our  situation,*  appealed  to  the 
sense  of  the  best  friends  of  the  U.  S.— the  prospect  of  anarchy  from 
the  laxity  of  government  every  where;  and  to  other  considerations. 

4.  He  then  proceeded  tu  the  remedy;  the  basis  of  which  he  said 
must  be  the  republican  principle 

He  proposed  as  conformable  to  his  ideas  the  following  resoln- 
tions,  which  he  explained  one  by  one  [Hera  insert  ye  Beaolutions 
annexed].* 


EBBOLrrnoNs  proposid  bt  WB  Randolph  in  Convintion 
Mat  29,  1787.* 

1.  Resolved  that  the  Articles  of  Confederation  ought  to  be  so 
corrected  &  enlarged  as  to  accomplish  the  objects  proposed  by  their 
institution;  namely,  "  common  defence,  seturity  of  liberty  and  gen- 
eral welfare." 

2.  Res'?  therefore  that  the  rights  of  suffrage  in  the  National  Legis- 
lature ought  to  be  proportioned  to  the  Quotas  of  contribution,  or  to 


to 


'The  flfimrM  indiested  by  the  rtferaira  mmrk  '  an  dunged  In  the  tranKrint 
Firet,"  "  Secondly,"  etc.  "  y 

■  The  word  "  the  "  ii  croeeed  out  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  and  "  ii  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 

*  This  direction  and  the  heading  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


U     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

the  number  of  free  inhabiUnts,  m  the  one  or  the  other  rule  may 
Mem  beat  in  different  caaea. 

3.  Be«4  that  the  National  Lefialature  ought  to  conaiat  of  two 
brancbea. 

4.  Bea^  that  the  membera  of  the  firat  branch  of  the  National 
Legialature  ought  to  be  elected  by  the  people  of  the  leveral  Statea 
every  for  the  term  of  ;  to  be  of  the  ago  of 

yeara  at  leaat,  to  receive  liberal  atipenda  by  which  they  may  be 
compensated  for  the  devotion  of  their  time  to*  public  aervice;  to  be 
ineligible  to  any  office  establrhed  by  a  particular  State,  or  under 
tho  authority  of  the  United  SUtea,  except  thoae  beeuliarly  belonging 
to  the  functions  of  the  flrat  branch,  during  the  term  of  service,  and 
for  the  space  of  after  ita  expiration ;  to  be  incapable  of  re- 

election for  the  space  of  after  the  expiration  of  their  term  of 

•ervice,  and  to  be  subject  to  recall. 

5.  Resol?  that  the  members  of  the  aecond  branch  of  the  National 
Legislature  ought  to  be  elected  by  thoae  of  the  first,  out  of  a  proper 
number  of  persons  nominated  by  the  individual  Legislaturea,  to  be  of 
the  age  of  yeara  at  least;  to  b^ld  their  offices  for  a  term 
sufficient  to  ensure  their  independency ;  *  to  receive  liberal  atipenda, 
by  which  they  may  be  compensated  for  the  devotion  of  their  ne  to  * 
public  service ;  and  to  be  ineligible  to  any  office  establiahed  by  a  par- 
ticular State,  or  under  the  authority  of  the  United  States,  except 
those  peculiarly  belonging  to  the  functions  of  the  second  branch, 
during  the  term  of  service,  and  for  the  ^pace  of  after  the  ex- 
piration thereof. 

6.  Resolved  that  each  branch  ought  to  poaaeaa  the  ri^t  of  origi- 
nating Acts;  that  the  National  Legislature  ought  to  be  impowered 
to  enjoy  the  Legislative  Bights  vested  in  Ck>ngresa  by  the  Confedera- 
tion &  moreover  to  legislate  in  all  caaea  to  which  the  separate  States 
are  incompetent,  or  in  which  the  harmony  of  the  United  States  may 
be  interrupted  by  the  exercise  of  individual  Legislation ;  to  negative 
all  laws  passed  by  the  several  States,  contravening  in  the  opinion  of 
the  National  Legislature  the  articles  of  Union;*  and  to  call  forth 
the  force  of  the  Union  ag*5  any  member  of  the  Union  failing  to  fulfill 
its  duty  under  the  articles  thereof. 

7.  Res'?  that  a  National  Executive  be  instituted ;  to  be  chosen  by 


'  The  word  "  the  "  ii  here  inierted  is  the  trantcript. 

•  The  word  "  independency  "  !•  rhanfied  to  "  independence  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  the  *'  is  here  (nierted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  phrase  "  or  any  treaty  rabaitting  under  the  authority  of  the  Union  " 
Ii  here  added  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TUBSDAT,  MAT  29,  1787  M 

th«  N.Uontl  L*gkl.tu»  for  the  term  of  yew.'  to  r«(.i« 

punctu.  ly  .t  nated  time..  .  toed  compen^tionT  J.,^^ 

r.!»r'.  ?  **•  "**•'*"''•  ■  "^°'*  »'°»i  "'l  that  beeiue.  a  general 
•uthorrty  to  execute  the  National  Uw.,  it  ought  to  enjoylhe  Ex^u 
tiv.riiJUve.ted  in  Congre-  by  the  Confed^tion.  ' 
kJ'  T%  i^*.*  *'"  Executive  and  a  convenient  number  of  the 
lihont^"'^""^'  '"^'*  ''  ^""^  •  Council  of  rev^on  wUh 
It  ihall  operate,  A  every  act  of  a  particular  LegiaUture  before  a 
SXrH^T""  "^^^  •*  ^'  ""'  ^»'**  the^Tf  S    Mid 

9    wir^^^xT    .     "'»•'«'«»•'«»>«'•  0' each  branch. 
on«„.™  •  ^'*'*"^  Judiciaor  be  eeubliahed  to  conaiat  of 

one  or  more  supreme  tribunal.,  and  of  inferior  tribunal.  torSLn 
Lit      '!?"r^  Legi-Uture.  to  hold  their  offlce.  dnrinj  ^T 

toon  for  their  «ryice.,  in  which  no  increaae  or  diminutionASri 

X2u  be  Tk  "°i  ?*'  '"^  ^'^^'^^^  o'  the  inferior  tibu 
n»l«  ahaU  be  to  hear  4  determine  in  the  firrt  in.tance  and  of  th« 
«ipreme  tribunal  to  hear  and  determine  in  thl^iV^rt   aU 

NatZl^^.^*"*^'  "  "^'""^  "-P*"*  ">•  ~"««tion  o}  the 
lion-^Kir^  .'  impewhrnento  of  any  National  offlcen,  and  quc 
tion.  which  may  involve  the  national  peace  and  harmony.  ^ 

St*tl"l«^ ,  •**  '*"^''*°  **"*'**  *<>  »^  »•*'•  '<"•  the  admi«ion  of 
State,  lawfully  anaing  within  the  limit,  of  the  United  SUte.  whether 
ft^m  a  r«.n„t«ry  junction  of  Government  ft  TerritoryTotJeST 

11.  Re.«  that  a  Republican  Government  &  the  territory  of  ^^h 
State,  except  in  the  imrtance  of  a  volunUry  junctionTSernmrnt 
Ajerntoiy,  ought  to  be  guarantied  by  Se'united  Stat  t"rh 

Cor,!L.^*?u*.''"^''°  ''°«'^*  **»  he  made  for  the  continuance  of 
Congrew  and  their  authoritie.  and  privilege.,  until  a  given  dar.fter 

Xle  word     or     i.  ch«ng«l  to  "  nor  »  to  the  traa«;rlpt. 


26      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 
the  reform  of  the  articles  of  Union  shaU  be  adopted,  and  for  the 
completion  of  all  their  engagements.  ,    ,     ,,  „   ,„.„.  „* 

13  Res*  that  provision  ought  to  be  made  for  the  amendment  of 
the  Articles  of  Union  whensoever  it  shall  seem  necessary,  and  that  the 
assent  of  the  National  Legislature  ought  not  to  be  required  thereto. 

14  Res?  that  the  Legislative  Executive  &  Judiciary  powers  within 
the  several  States  ought  to  be  bound  by  oath  to  support  the  articles 

°*  ^lT\eifi  that  the  amendments  which  shall  be  offered  to  the  Con- 
federation,  by  the  Convention  ought  at  a  proper  time,  or  times, 
after  the  av  probation  of  Congress  to  be  submitted  to  an  assembly  or 
assen  ..lies  of  Representatives,  recommended  by  the  severri  Legw- 
latu-eVto  be  expressly  chosen  by  the  people,  to  consider  &  decide 

*^^He  included  with  an  exhortation,  not  to  suffer  the  present  oppor- 
tunity of  establishing  general  peace,  harmony,  happiness  and  hberty 
in  the  U.  S.  to  pass  away  unimproved.* 

It  was  then  Resolved-That  the  House  wUl  tomorrow  resolve 
itself  into  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House  to  consider  of  the  state 
of  the  American  Union.-and  that  the  propoeitionB  moved  by  W 
Randolph  be  referred  to  the  said  Committee.  u*    ♦  - 

M'  Chables  PmKNBT  laid  before  the  house  the  draught  of  a 
federal  Government  which  he  had  prepared,  to  be  agreed  upon  between 
the  free  and  independent  States  of  America.»-»P  P.  plan*  ordered 

omitted  by  J.  M. ■■ 

.  The  fifteen  t^lntUan,  conrtitutiag  the  "  Virginia  Plan."  «•  in  Madison's 

„|  ib"tthX nor  m  H.  C«m,i,tlon.    II  «.  ho.ner  r.tmrt  U>  tb.  C~i».tt« 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  MAY  30,  1787  27 

that  the  same  be  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  appointed 
to  consider  the  state  of  the  American  Union, 
adjourned. 


Wednesday  Mat    0. 
Roger  Sherman  (from  Connecticut)  tc  >=i  f  is  scst 
The  House  went  into  Committee  qt  tv    Whole  on  tuO  State  of 
the  Union.    Ml  Gorham  was  elected  to  the  Chair  by  Baiioi,. 

The  propositions  of  Mr  Randolph  which  had  been  referred  to 
the  Committee  being  taken  up.  He  moved  on  the  suggestion  of  M? 
G.  Morris,  that  tLa  first  of  his  propositions  to  wit  "  Resolved  that  the 
articles  of  Confederation  ought  to  be  so  corrected  &  enlarged,  as  to 
accomplish  the  objects  proposed  by  their  institution;  namely,  common 
defence,  security  of  liberty  &  general  welfare :»— should  be  postponed, 
in  order  to  consider  the  3  following: 

1.  that  a  Union  of  the  States  merely  federal  will  not  accomplish 
the  objects  proposed  by  the  articles  of  Confederation,  namely  com- 
mon defence,  security  of  liberty,  &  gen?  welfare. 

2.  that  no  treaty  or  treaties  among  the  whole  or  part  of  the  States, 
as  individual  Sovereignties,  would  be  sufficient. 

3.  that  a  national  Government  ought  to  be  established  consisting 
of  a  supreme  Legislative,  Executive  &  Judiciary. 

The  motion  for  postponing  was  seconded  by  Ml  GoV.  Mobeis  and 
unanimously  agreed  to. 

Some  verbal  criticisms  were  raised  ag?  the  first  proposition,  and 
it  was  agreed  on  motion  of  M*.  Btjtler  seconded  by  Ml  Randolph,  to 
pass  on  to  the  third,  which  underwent  a  discussion,  less  however  on 
its  general  merits  than  on  the  force  and  extent  of  the  particular 
terms  national  &  supreme. 

Mt  Charles  Pinknby  wished  to  know  of  SC  Randolph  whether 
he  meant  to  abolish  the  State  Govern*!  altogether.   W.  R.  replied  that 


of  Detail,  which  appears  to  have  made  tome  uae  of  it,  as  extracts  from  it  have 
been  identifled  by  J.  Franklin  Jameson  and  an  outline  of  it  discovpred  by 
Andrew  C.  McLaughlin,  among  the  papers  and  in  the  handwriting  of  James 
Wilson,  a  delegate  from  Pennsylvania,  deposited  with  the  Pennsylvania  His- 
torical Society. 

For  the  main  features  of  this  plan  as  reconstructed  by  Professor  McLaughlin 
according  to  Professor  Jameson's  and  his  own  discoveries,  see  Appendix  to  De- 
bates, IV,  No.  1,  6g6-6S8. 

■  F°/^\^*\  "'  *''*  Pinclcney  plan  submitted  to  John  Quincy  Adams  and 
printed  by  him  in  the  Journal  of  the  Convention,  for  Madison's  observations 
upon  it  and  for  further  details  concerning  it,  see  Appendix  to  Debates,  IV. 
Nos.  3  and  4,  pp.  600-607. 

•  The  resolution  is  italicized  in  the  transcript. 


i  -I 


28      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

he  meant  by  these  general  propositions  merely  to  introduce  the  par- 
ticular ones  which  explained  the  ouUines  of  the  system  he  had  in  view. 
M'.  BuTLEB  said  he  had  not  made  up  his  mind  on  the  subject, 
and  was  open  to  the  light  which  discussion  might  throw  on  it.  After 
some  general  observations  he  concluded  with  saying  that  he  had 
opposed  the  grant  of  powers  to  Cong!  heretofore,  because  the  whole 
power  was  vested  in  one  body.  The  proposed  distnbuUon  of  the 
powers  into '  different  bodies  changed  the  case,  and  would  mduce  him 

to  go  great  lengths.  .^     *   ^     _. 

Gen.'  PiNKNET  expressed  a  doubt  whether  the  act  of  Cong? 
recommending  the  Convention,  or  the  Commissions  of  the  Deputies  to 
it,  could '  authorise  a  discussion  of  a  System  founded  on  different  prin- 
ciples from  the  federal  Constitution. 

M'  Gerby  seemed  to  entertain  the  same  doubt.  .  ,     ,       , 

W  Gov'  MoBBis  explained  the  distinction  between  a  federal  and 
natwnal,  supreme,  Gov'.;  the  former  being  a  mere  compact  resting 
on  the  good  faith  of  the  parties;  the  latter  having  a  compleat  and 
compulsive  operation.  He  contended  that  in  all  Communities  there 
must  be  one  supreme  power,  and  one  only.  ^      ,    , 

M'  Mason  observed  that  the  present  confederation  was  not  only 
deficient  in  not  providing  for  coercion  &  punishment  ag!«  delinquent 
States;  but  argued  very  cogentiy  that  punishment  f"'^**  not  in  the 
nature  of  things  be  executed  on  the  States  coUectively,  and  therefore 
that  such  a  Gov.*  was  necessary  as  could  directly  operate  on  individuals, 
and  would  punish  those  only  whose  guilt  required  it. 

M^  Shebman  who  took  his  seat  today,*  admitted  that  the  Con- 
federation  had  not  given  sufficient  power  to  Cong!  and  that  additional 
powers  were  necessary;  particularly  that  of  "--«  ^'"^^^^"f  .J* 
Mid  would  involve  many  other  powers.  He  admitted  also  that  the 
General  &  particular  jurisdictions  ought  in  no  case  to  be  concurrent. 
He  seemed  however  nof  be  disposed  to  make  too  great  inroads 
on  the  existing  system;  intimating  as  one  reason  that  it  would  be 
wrong  to  lose  every  amendment,  by  inserting  such  as  would  not  be 
aereed  to  by  the  States. 

It  was  moved  Ly  W-  Read  •  2**  by  M!  CW  Coteswobth  Pinknet. 


"^'"'•'rhr phrase  "who  took  his  ^t  today"  is  omitted  in  the  tran«:ript. 

•  The  word  "  to  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  and  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  MAY  30,  1787  29 

to  postpone  the  3?  proposition  la  t  offered  by  MI  Randolph  viz  that 
a  national  Government  ought  to  be  established  consisting  of  a  supreme 
Legislative  Executive  and  Judiciary,"  in  order  to  take  up  the  foUow- 
mg— V12.  "Resolved  that  in  order  to  carry  into  execution  the 
DesTn  of  the  States  in  forming  this  Convention,  and  to  accomplish 
the  objects  proposed  by  the  Confederation  a  more  effective  Govern- 
ment consisting  of  a  Legislative,  Executive  and  Judiciary  ought  to 
be  established."    The  motion  to  postpone  for  this  purpose  was  lost: 

Yeas'   Massachussetts,   Connecticut,   Delaware,   S.   Carolina— ' 4 
Nays.'    N.  Y.  Pennsylvania,  Virginia,  North  Carolina—'  4. 

On  the  question  as  moved  by  Mr  Butler,  on  the  third  proposition 
It  was  resolved  in  Committee  of  the  whole  that  a  national  govemi  ought 
to  be  established  consisting  of  a  supreme  Legislative  Executive  & 
Judiciary."  Mass?  being  ay— Connect.— no.  N.  York  divided  [Col. 
Hamilton  ay  W  Yates  no]  Pen*  ay.  Delaware  ay.  Virg^  ay  N  C 
ay.    S.  C.  ay.»  '     ' 

[Note  E] « 

Resol :  2.  of  M^  R's  proposition  towit— «ee  May  29.* 
The  foUowing  Resolution,  being  the  2^  of  those  proposed  by  M' 
Randolph  was  taken  up,  viz-"  that  the  rights  of  suffrage  in  the 
National  Legislature  ought  to  be  proportioned  to  the  qmUu.  of  con- 
tribution, or  to  the  number  of  free  inhabitants,  as  the  one  or  the 
other  rule  may  seem  best  in  different  cases."* 

M»  Madison  observing  that  the  words  "  or  to  the  number  of  free 
tnh%bttants,"  might  occasion  debates  which  would  divert  the  Com- 
mittee from  the  general  question  whether  the  principle  of  representa- 
tion should  be  changed,  moved  that  they  might  be  struck  out. 

MT  Kino  observed  that  the  quotas  of  contribution  which  would 
alone  remain  as  the  measure  of  representation,  would  not  answer 
because  waving  every  other  view  of  the  matter,  the  revenue  might 
hereafter  be  so  collected  by  the  general  Govt  that  the  sums  respectively 
drawn  from  the  States  would  not  appear;  and  would  besides  be  con- 
tinually varying. 

m  Madison  admitted  the  propriety  of  the  observation,  and  that 
some  better  rule  ought  to  be  found. 


i,J^'JZ\Z\%  .l'4.r»tt«»   »  ♦"«  t"»~ript  .Bd  the  word   ".ye" 
inJi^U^tC1''^.''l!"^**^  ^  ""»  *»-"•'*  "«»  tke  word   "no" 

viJ^"  *  w  *J[?."'!f7'P*.*'"'  ^°**  'e*^*'  "  Maisachugetta,  Pennsrlvania,  Delaware 
Virfima    North  Carolina.   South  Carolina,  aye-6j    Connecticut    n^-N^ 
York,  divided   (Colonel  Hamilton,  nye,  Mr.  Yatea,  no)  ..  ""~"™»'   *»*-*•    «e^ 
•  Madiion'8  direetion  is  omitt.  d  in  the  transcript. 
Tha  reaolution  is  italicized  in  the  transcript. 


80     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Col.  Hamilton  moved  to  alter  the  resolution  so  as  to  read  "  that 
the  rights  of  suffrage  in  the  national  Legislature  ought  to  be  pro- 
portioned to  the  number  of  free  inhabitants.     W.  Spaioht  '2:^  the 

motion.  ,      , .  , 

It  waa  then  moved  that  the  Resolution  be  postponed,  which  was 

agreed  to.  . 

M'.  Randolph  and  m  M.vdison  then  moved  the  following  resolu- 
tion—" that  the  rights  of  suffrage  in  the  national  Legislature  ought 
to  be  proportioned." 

It  was  moved  and  2**  to  amend  it  by  adding  "  and  not  according 
to  the  present  system  "—which  was  agreed  to. 

It  was  then  moved  and  2**  to  alter  the  resolution  so  as  to  read 
"  that  the  rights  of  suffrage  in  the  national  Legislature  ought  not  to 
be  according  to  the  present  system." 

It  was  then  moved  &  2*t«  to  postpone  the  Resolution  moved  by 
W.  Randolph  &  JI'  Madison,  which  being  agreed  to: 

Ml  Madison,  moved,  in  order  to  get  over  the  difficulties,  the  foL 
lowing  resolution— "  that  the  equality  of  suffrage  established  by 
the  articles  of  Confederation  ought  not  to  prevail  in  the  national 
Legislature,  and  that  an  equitable  ratio  of  representation  ought 
to  be  substituted."  This  was  2«  by  M'.  Gov^  Mobeis,  and  being 
generally  relished,  would  have  been  agreed  to ;  when, 

M'.  Reed  moved  that  the  whole  clause  relating  to  the  point  of 
Representation  be  postponed;  reminding  the  Com'  that  the  deputies 
from  Delaware  were  restrained  by  their  commission  from  assenting 
to  any  change  of  the  rule  of  suffrage,  and  in  case  such  a  change 
skould  be  fixed  on,  it  might  become-  their  duty  to  retire  from  the 
Convention. 

Mt  Gov'.  Mobeis  observed  that  the  valuable  assistance  of  those 
members  could  not  be  lost  without  real  concern,  and  that  so  early  a 
proof  of  discord  in  the  Convention  as  a  secession  of  a  State,  would 
add  much  to  the  regret;  that  the  change  proposed  was  however  so 
fundamental  an  article  in  a  national  Gov*  that  it  could  not  be  dis- 

pensed  with. 

M'.  Madison  observed  that  whatever  reason  might  have  existed 
for  the  equality  of  suffrage  when  the  Union  was  a  federal  one  among 
sovereign  States,  it  must  cease  when  a  national  Goverm.'  should  be 
put  into  the  place.  In  the  former  case,  the  acts  of  Cong!  depended 
so  much  for  their  efficacy  on  the  cooperation  of  the  States,  that  these 
had  a  weight  both  within  &  without  Congress,  nearly  in  proportion 
to  their  extent  and  importance.  In  the  latter  case,  as  the  acta  of 
the  Gen}  Gov*  would  take  effect  without  the  intervention  of  the  State 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  MAY  31,  1787  81 

legislatures,  a  vote  from  a  small  State  w?  have  the  same  efficacy  A 
importance  as  a  vote  from  a  large  one,  and  there  was  the  same  reason 
for  d^erent  numbers  of  representatives  from  diflferent  States,  as  from 
Counties  of  different  extents  within  particular  States.  H«  Suggested 
««  an  expedient  for  at  once  taking  the  sense  of  the  memSs  on 
this  point  and  saving  the  Delaware  deputies  from  embarrassment,  that 
^e  qu^tion  should  be  taken  in  Committee,  and  the  clause  on  report 
to  the  House  be  postponed  without  a  question  there.  This  however 
did  not  appear  to  satisfy  M:  Read.  "owever 

By  several  it  was  observed  that  no  juat  construction  of  the  Act 
of  Delaware,  could  require  or  justify  a  secession  of  her  deputies, 
even  If  the  resolution  were  to  be  carried  thro'  the  House  as  well  a^ 
^e  Committee.  It  was  finally  agreed  however  that  the  clause  should 
be  postponed:  it  being  understood  that  in  the  event  the  proposed 
change  of  representation  would  certainly  be  agreed  to,  no  objection 

DelatS"^  '**^   ^"^   ""^   ***^*"'   "^^^^   *^*°    ^««° 

The  motion  of  M^  Read  to  postpone  being  agreed  to 
The  Committee  then  rose.    The  Chairman  reported  progress,  and 

the  House  having  resolved  to  resume  the  subject  in  Committee  to. 

morrow,  %~-*tu*i.i,cc  mk 

Adjourned  to  10  OClock. 


Thubsdat  Mat  31  * 

WiUiam  Pierce  from  Georgia  took  his  seat 
In  Committee  of  the  whole  on  MK  Randolph's  proposition.. 
The  3?  Resolution      that  the  national  Legislature  ought  to  con- 
sist of  two  branches  ;'  was  agreed  to  without  debate  or  dissent,  except 
that  of  Pennsylvania,  given  probably  from  complaisance  to  D^. 
LeSfitL        ""^  '^"'^^"tood  to  be  partial  to  a  single  House  of 

fl,»  m"?-'  ^f  f^  f'*"^  "  ^^^  *^*  '"**"'»»^™  °f  «»«  fi"t  branch  of 

it  ™l?'l'"n°^.?°*o   *^*  '''"*'°°  ^^  *^«  P«»P'«'  i°«i«ting  that 
It  ought  to  be  by  the  State  Legislatures.    The  people  he  said,  im- 


;  The  year  "  1787  "  h  here  inserted  in  the  traBscrint 

•The  tr.n«r.pt  changes  "Re«,l:  4."  to  "Ihe"^  Re«,lution.« 


32      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

mediately  should  have  as  little  to  do  as  may  be  about  the  Govern- 
mcnt.     They  want  infonnation  and   are  constantly  liable  to  be 

misled.  ^        .         ^u  />« 

JI'.  Gerey.  The  evils  we  experience  flow  from  the  excess  oi 
democ'racy.  The  people  do  not  want  virtue,  but  are  the  dupes  of  pre- 
tended patriots.  In  Mass^  it  had  been  fully  confirmed  by  experience 
that  thev  are  daily  misled  into  the  most  baneful  measures  and  oi-mions 
bv  the  false  reports  circulated  by  designing  men,  and  which  no  one 
on  the  spot  can  refute.  One  principal  evil  arises  from  the  want  of 
due  provision  for  those  employed  in  the  administration  of  Govemm. 
It  would  seem  to  be  a  maxim  of  democracy  to  starve  the  public  ser- 
vants He  mentioned  the  popular  clamour  in  Mass«!  for  the  reduction 
of  salaries  and  the  attack  made  on  that  of  the  Gov',  though  secured 
by  the  spirit  of  the  Constitution  itself.  He  had  he  said  been  too 
republican  heretofore:  he  was  still  however  republican,  but  had  been 
taught  by  experience  the  danger  of  the  levilling  spirit. 

IK  Mason,  argued  strongly  for  an  election  of  the  larger  branch 
by  the  p'XTk.    It  was  to  be  the  grand  depository  of  the  democratic 
principle  of  the  Gov*    It  was,  so  to  speak,  to  be  our  House  of  Com- 
mons-It ought  to  know  &  sympathise  with  every  part  of  the  com- 
munity; and  ought  therefore  to  be  taken  not  only  from  different 
parts  of  the  whole  republic,  but  also  from  different  districts  of  the 
larger  members  of  it,  which  had  in  several  instances  particularly 
in  Virg^,  different  interests  and  views  arising  from  difference  ol 
produce,  of  habits  &c  &c.    He  admitted  that  we  had  been  too  demo- 
cratic but  was  afraid  we  si  incautiously  run  into  the  opposite  ex- 
treme    We  ought  to  attend  to  the  rights  of  every  class  of  the  people. 
He  had  often  wondered  at  the  indifference  of  the  superior  classes 
of  society  to  this  dictate  of  humanity  &  policy;  considering  that  how- 
ever affluent  their  circumstances,  or  elevated  their  situations,  might 
be   the  course  of  a  few  .   nrs,  not  only  might  but  certainly  would, 
distribute  their  posterity  tiiroughout  the  lowest  classes  of  Society. 
Every  selfish  motive  therefore,  every  family  attachment,  ought  to 
recommend  such  a  system  of  polie.    as  would  provide  no  Jess  care- 
fully for  the  rights  and  happiness  of  the  lowest  than  of  the  highest 

orders  of  Citizens.  .       ^  ^ 

M'.  Wilson  contended  strenuously  for  drawn  g  the  most  numerous 
branch  of  the  Legislature  immediately  from  the  people.  He  was  for 
raising  the  federal  pj-ramid  to  a  considerable  altitude,  and  for  that 
reason  wished  to  give  it  as  broad  a  basis  as  possible.  No  govern- 
ment could  long  subsist  without  the  confidence  of  the  people,  in 
a  republican  Government  this  confidence  was  peculiarly  essential. 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  MAY  31,  1787  33 

He  also  thought  it  wrong  to  increase  the  weight  of  the  State  Legis- 
latures  by  making  them  the  electors  of  the  national  Legislature  AH 
interference  between  the  general  and  local  Govemm-  should  be 
obviated  as  much  as  possible.  On  examination  it  would  be  found 
that  the  opposition  of  States  to  federal  measures  had  proceded 
much  more  from  the  oflBcers  of  the  States,  than  from  the  people  at 

m  MADreoN  considered  the  popular  election  of  one  branch  of 
the  National  Legislature  as  essential  to  every  plan  of  free  Govern- 
ment     He  observed  that  in  some  of  the  States  one  branch  of  the 
Lejislature  was  composed  of  men  already  removed  from  the  people 
by  an  intervening  body  of  electors.    That  if  the  first  branch  of  the 
g  n.^ral  legislature  should  be  elected  by  the  State  Legislatures,  the 
second  branch  elected  by  the  first-the  Executive  by  the  second 
together  with  the  first;  and  other  appointments  again  made  for  sub- 
ordinate purposes  by  the  Executive,  the  people  would  be  lost  sight 
of  altogether;  and  the  necessary  sympathy  between  them  and  their 
rulers  and  officers,  too  little  felt.    He  was  an  advocate  for  the  policy 
of  refining  the  popular  appointments  by  successive  filtrations    but 
thought  it  might  be  pushed  too  far.    He  wished  the  expedient  to  be 
resorted  to  only  in  the  appointment  of  the  second  branch  of  the 
Legislature,   and   in  the   Executive  &   judiciary   branches  of  the 
Government.    He  thought  too  that  the  great  fabric  to  be  raised  would 
be  more  stable  and  durable,  if  it  should  rest  on  the  solid  foundation 
of  the  people  themselves,  than  if  it  should  stand  merely  on  the  pillars 
of  the  Legislatures. 

M^  Gebbt  did  not  like  the  election  by  the  people.  The  maxims 
taken  from  the  British  constitution  were  often  fallacious  when 
applied  to  our  situation  which  was  extremely  different.  Experierf"> 
he  said  had  shewn  that  the  State  legislatures  drawn  immediatJy 
from  the  people  did  not  always  possess  their  confidence.  He  had 
no  objection  however  to  an  election  by  the  people  if  it  were  so  qualified 
that  men  of  honor  &  character  might  not  be  unwilling  to  be  joined  in 
the  appointments.  He  seemed  to  think  the  people  might  nominate 
a  certain  number  out  of  which  the  State  legislatures  should  be  bound 
to  choose. 

MT  BuTLEE  thought  an  election  by  the  people  an  impracticable 
mode. 

On  the  question  for  an  election  of  the  first  branch  of  the  national 
Legislature  by  the  people, 

Mass!"  ay.  Connec!  div?  N.  York  ay.  N.  Jersey  no.  Pen*  ay 
DelawTdiv?    V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    George  ay. 


34      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

The  remaining  Clauses  of  Resolution  4*^ »  relating  to  the  qualifica- 
tions of  members  of  the  National  Legislature,'  being  pospl  nem.  con., 
as  entering  too  much  into  detail  for  general  propositions ; 

The  Committee  proceeded  to  Resolution  5."  "  that  the  second,  [or 
senatorial]  branch  of  the  National  Legislature  ought  to  be  chosen 
by  the  first  branch  out  of  personB  nominatsd  by  the  State  Legis- 
latures." 

M'.  Spaioht  contended  that  the  2«  branch  ought  to  be  chosen  by 
the  State  Legislatures  and  moved  an  amendment  to  that  effect. 

Mr  Butler  apprehended  that  the  taking  so  many  powers  out  of 
the  hands  of  the  States  as  was  proposed,  tended  to  destroy  all  that 
balance  and  security  of  interests  among  the  States  which  it  was 
necessary  to  preserve;  and  called  on  M^  Randolph  the  mover  of  the 
propositions,  to  explain  the  extent  of  his  ideas,  and  particularly  the 
number  of  members  he  meant  to  assign  to  this  second  branch. 

M'.  Rako'.  observed  that  he  had  at  the  time  of  offering  his  proposi- 
tions stated  hU  ideas  as  far  as  the  nature  of  general  propositions 
required;  that  detaiU  made  no  part  of  the  plan,  and  could  not  per- 
haps with  propriety  have  been  introduced.  If  ho  was  to  give  an 
opinion  as  to  the  number  of  the  second  branch,  he  should  say  that 
it  ought  to  be  much  smaller  than  that  of  the  first ;  so  smaU  as  to  be  ex- 
empt from  the  passionate  proceedings  to  which  numerous  assembUes 
are  liable.  He  observed  that  the  general  object  was  to  provide  a  cure 
for  the  evils  under  which  the  U.  S.  laboured ;  that  in  tracing  these  evils 
to  their  origin  every  man  had  found  it  in  the  turbulence  and  follies 
of  democracy:  that  some  check  therefore  was  to  be  sought  for  ag^'  thU 
tendency  of  our  Governments:  and  that  a  good  Senate  seemed  most 
likely  to  answer  the  purpose. 

W.  KiN«  reminded  the  Committee  that  the  choice  of  the  second 
branch  as  proposed  (by  M'.  Spaight)  viz.  by  the  State  Legislatures 
would  be  impracticable,  unless  it  was  to  be  very  numerous,  or  the 
idea  of  proportion  among  the  States  was  to  be  disregarded.  Accord- 
ing to  this  idea,  there  must  be  80  or  100  members  to  entitle  Delaware 
to  the  choice  of  one  of  them.— M'.  Spaioht  withdrew  his  motion. 

Mr  Wilson  opposed  both  a  nomination  by  the  State  Legislatures, 
and  an  election  by  the  first  branch  of  the  national  LegUlat  ire,  be- 
cause the  second  branch  of  the  latter,  ought  to  be  independent  of 
both.    He  thought  both  branches  of  the  National  Legislature  ought  to 

■In  the  transcript  the  words  "Resolution  4th  "  are  changed  *<>  "  *!»  ^.o"**^ 
Resolution"  and  the  phrase  "the  qualiflcations  of  members  of  the  Nptlonal 

^^^M^The  iranlJ^ipfthe  words  "Resolution  5."  are  changed  to  "the  fifth 
Besolution  "  and  the  word'  of  the  resolution  are  italicized. 


SESSION  OF  THURSDAY,  MAY  31,  1787  35 

be  chown  by  the  people,  but  wm  not  prepared  with  a  specific  proposi- 
Uon     He  8ugge.-d  the  mode  of  chu-ing  the  Senate  of  N.  Vork  to 

lhl«"    "fK^'t™'  "'""^'^'^  **"*"«*»'  '»'  «'^«  branch,  in  ehnaing 
embem   or  the  other  branch,  an  a  good  model. 

fl„.fl^/!If°'*  ''^""^  '•"'*  """'^  "  "«*'«  ^"'Jd  destroy  the  in- 
flu  nee  of  the  smaller  States  associated  with  larger  ones  iTthe  L^e 
d^nct;  as  the  latter  would  ehuse  from  within  themselves,  altho' 
letter  men  m.ght  be  found  in  the  former.  The  election  of  Senator 
LricTfo^r  Th  """  *  «•"«" /«"nties  were  often  fomed  into  one 
district  for  the  purpose,  had  illustrated  this  consequence  Local 
partiality  would  often  prefer  a  resident  within  the  County  or  S 
to  a  candidate  of  superior  merit  residing  out  of  it.  L  J  merifiso 
m  a  resident  would  be  more  known  throughout  his  own  State 

Leji^afu:::'^rr4ueitt  "* ''- "  ^-'-'^''''^  '^  ^^  '^- 

V .  no.   XM.  c.  no.    8.  C.  na    Georg  no.> 

nnnPn  ."'*  T^^lt  ''o'^'""  ^'""  '^•''*'"*^  ^^  ^^^^  «"*  branch  out  of 
nominations  by  the  State  Legislatures.  Mass.  ay.  Con!  no.  N  Y  no 
NJersey.no.  Pen- no.  Del.no.  Virg^  ay.  N.  C.  no.  S.C.ay' 
li"  no.  '' 

the  p^a^*  clause  was  disagreed  to  &  a  chasm  left  in  this  part  of 

'The  sixth  Resolution  stating  the  cases  in  which  the  national 
Legislature  ought  to  legislate  was  next  taken  into  discussion:  On 
the  question  whether  each  branch  sM  originate  laws,  there  was  an 
unanimous  affirmative  without  debate.  Or  the  question  for  trans- 
ferring  all  the  Legislative  powers  of  the  existing  Cong?  to  this  Assem- 
bly, there  was  also  a  silent  affirmative  nem.  con 

•  Tn  f i,„  *  •   *""?  *°™      •■      w  inserted  after  the  word  "ouestion" 

Carolina.  G^rRia^o^"  "  '     *'  ^^^^'  P«°°''y'»«'».  DeUware,  North 

case,'^^   whiert'he"''nationL*?^,'P^  '**""?"  *'"»  '°"<"^»?  Pl"^'     "the 
branch  .b- Sn^tV^'^r'^o^^'^r^irr^  ^^^^:^::^\'^ 


branch  .hi  originaTe  faw,-^o7t™«i?:^i^''^*.  ^l!  '?!!S'V<'  "»'**''"  -^^ 
exiting  Con/to  thi.  ll.„w^.^™a";f7C^hi^'.^u'f  ^ffl^^^^^  "'  **" 
con."  ..  changed  to  "an  unaniio^  affin.atl^^'VTthout  dXe'-?™**''''  "*""• 


86      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 
On  the  proposition  -or  giving  "  Legislative  power  in  all  c««.  to 

'^  Si'Bllr^peated  hi,  fear,  that  we  were  mnning  inj>  «.  - 
treme  in  taking  away  the  powers  of  the  States,  and  called  on    W 

nrLr^Hriil'trri^  to  give  inde«nite  power, 
to  ill  naZiJ  Legislature,  declaring  that  he  was  ent.e^  o^po^ 
to  such  an  inroad  en  the  State  jurisdictions,  and  that  he  d^  °°J 
Sink  any  consideration,  whatever  could  ever  change  hi.  determina- 
nt rSl^^rthrhrhrbl^ht  with  him  into  the  Co. 
.i^i^^rongl^^ii^^-y^^^ 

Z'Zi::^!^^^^^^^^^  P-ticability.  II.  wish« 
'remJird  unaW,  but  hi,  doubts  had  beconie^-^r.  Wh^  h« 
opinion  might  ultimately  be  he  coTui  not  yet  tel .  But  ne  snoma 
sS  fL  nothing  which  should  b-.  found  essential  to  such  a  form 
of  rov'M  would  provide  for  the  safety,  liberty  and  happiness  of  the 
LTunUy  ^rbein,  the  end  of  all  our  deliberation,  a^l^^ 
necessary  means  for  attaining  it  murt,  however  reluctantly,  be  «at>- 

"'"on  The  question  for  giving  powers,  in  case,  to  which  the  Stat^ 
are  not  c'ompetent.  Mass?  ay.  ConJ  div-  [Shaman  no  Elseworth 
ay]  N   Y.  ay.    N.  J.  ay.    K  ay.    DeL  ay.    V*  ay.    N.  C.  ay. 

'•  r 'i' dar^VvC  power,  nece«ary  t«  preserve  harmoi^ 
among  the  States  to  negative  all  State  laws  <^°°t"j;^7^  ;°  ** 
rnion  of  the  Nat.  Leg.  the  articles  of  union,  down  to  the  last  clai^. 
ahe  words  "or  any  treaties  subsisting  under  the  authority  of  tiie 
Untn  "ting  add^  after  the  words  "  -travening  &c^  the  ar^e  e^^ 
of  the  Union,"  on  motion  of  D^  Franklin)  were  agreed  to  with, 
debate  or  dissent. 


.     .  •  4  iv-  „«♦«  rMila-  "  M»«»rhi]8ett»,  New  York,  New  Jersey, 

PenJ^wi^-D-r^'^r^^^^^  Scut. .  CroHn..   G«.r^a. 

states  to  nSe  all  StateTawB  contravening  in  the  opinion  of  the  Nat.  Leg. 
ttel^icl^^tminn"  is  iulicized  in  the  tran«r.pt. 


I 


^ 


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i 


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5 


r^k 


SESSION  OF  FRIDAY,  JUNE  1.  1787 


87 


The  last  pIaum  of  Beaolution  6.'  aatboriaing  an  exertion  of  the 
forre  of  the  whole  agf  a  delinquent  State  came  next  into  consideration. 

M'.  Madimon,  obMrved  that  ihe  more  he  reflected  on  the  uae  of 
force,  the  more  he  doubted  the  practicability,  the  joatiea  and  the  efll- 
eacy  of  it  when  applied  to  people  collectively  and  not  individnally.— 
A  union  of  the  States  containing  inch  an  ingredient  aeemed  to 
provide  for  ita  own  deetruction.  The  uae  of  force  ag!*  •  State,  woald 
look  more  like  a  declaration  of  war,  than  an  infliction  of  puniahment, 
and  would  probably  be  conaidered  by  the  party  attacked  aa  a  diaaolo* 
tion  of  all  previous  compacts  by  which  it  miRht  be  bound.  He  hoped 
that  such  a  system  would  be  framed  as  might  render  this  recoune ' 
unnecessary,  and  moved  that  the  clauae  b«  postponed.  This  motion 
was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

TIm  Committee  then  nae  4b  the  House 

Adjourned 


'I 


Fbidat  June  l"?  1787. 

William  Honston  from  Georgia  took  his  seat 

The  Committee  of  the  whole  proeeeded  to  Resohition  7.*  "  that  a 
national  Executive  be  instituted,  to  be  chosen  by  the  national  Legis- 
lature—for the  term  of  years  Ac  to  be  ineligible  thereafter,  to 
possess  the  executive  powers  of  Congress  &c." 

Mr  PiNKNBT  was  for  a  vigorous  Executive  but  was  afraid  the  Ex- 
ecutive powers  of  the  existing  '^  >ngress  mig^t  extend  to  peace  &  war 
Ac.,  which  would  render  the  Executive  a  monarchy,  of  the  worst  kind, 
to  wit  an  elective  one. 

Mt  Wn.80N  moved  that  the  Executive  consist  of  a  ringle  person. 
M!  C  PiNKNXT  seconded  the  motion,  so  aa  to  read  "  that  a  Nat'j  <al 
Ex.  to  consist  of  a  single  person,  be  instituted. 

A  considerable  pause  ensuing  and  the  Chairman  asking  if  he 
•houid  put  the  question,  Doc'.  Franklin  observed  that  it  was  a  point 
of  great  importance  and  wished  that  the  gentlemen  would  deliver 
their  sentiments  on  it  before  the  queetion  was  put. 

MT  RuTLiDOB  animadverted  on  the  shyness  of  gentlemen  on  this 
and  other  subjects.    He  said  it  looked  as  if  they  supposed  themselves 

•The  words  "the  sixth  Resolution"  are  substituted  io  the  transcript  for 
"Resolution  «"  «nd  the  phrase  "authorizing  an  exertion  of  the  force  of  ths 
whole  ag«  a  delinquent  SUte  "  is  iUlicized. 

'  The  word  "  resource  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  recourse." 
•  The  words  "  the  seventh  Resolution  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  R«aolution  7  "  and  the  words  of  the  resolution  are  italicized. 


38      DEBATES  IX  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

precluded  by  having  frankly  disclosed  their  opinions  from  after- 
wards  changing  them,  which  he  did  not  take  to  be  at  all  the  case. 
He  said  he  was  for  vesting  the  Executive  power  in  a  single  person, 
tho'  he  was  not  for  g:iving  him  the  power  of  war  and  peace,  A 
single  man  would  feel  the  greatest  responsibility  and  administer  the 
public  affairs  best. 

M'.  Sherman  said  he  considered  the  Executive  magistracy  as  noth- 
ing more  than  an  institution  for  carrying  the  will  of  the  Legislature 
into  effect,  that  the  person  or  persons  ought  to  be  appointed  by  and 
accountable  to  the  Legislature  only,  which  was  the  depoaitary  of  the 
supreme  will  of  the  Society.  Aa  they  were  the  best  judges  of  the 
business  which  ought  to  be  done  by  the  Executive  department,  and 
consequently  of  the  number  necessary  from  time  to  time  for  doing  it, 
he  wished  the  number  might  not  be  fixed,  but  that  the  legislature 
should  be  at  liberty  to  appoint  one  or  more  as  experience  might 

dictate. 

MI  Wilson  preferred  a  single  magistrate,  as  giving  most  energy 
dispatch  and  responsibility  to  the  office.  He  did  not  consider  the 
Prerogatives  of  the  British  Monarch  as  a  proper  guide  in  defining 
the  Executive  powers.  Some  of  these  prerogatives  were  of  a  Legis- 
lative nature.  Among  others  that  of  war  &  peace  &c.  The  only 
powers  he  conceived »  strictly  Executive  were  those  of  executing  the 
laws,  and  appointing  officers,  not  appertaining  to  and  appointed  by 
the  Legislature. 

M:  Gbrbt  favored  the  policy  of  annexing  a  Council  to  the  Execu- 
tive in  order  to  give  weight  &  inspire  confidence. 

MT  Randolph  strenuously  opposed  a  unity  in  the  Executive  mag- 
istracy. He  regarded  it  as  the  foetus  of  monarchy.  We  had  he  said 
no  motive  to  be  governed  by  the  British  Govemmi  as  our  prototype. 
He  did  not  mean  however  to  throw  censure  on  that  Excellent  fabric. 
If  we  were  in  a  situation  to  copy  it  he  did  not  know  that  he  should 
be  opposed  to  it;  but  the  fixt  genius  of  the  people  of  America  re- 
quired a  different  form  of  Government.  He  could  not  see  why  the 
great  requisites  for  the  Executive  department,  vigor,  despatch  &  re- 
sponsibility  could  not  be  found  in  three  men,  as  well  as  in  one  man. 
The  Executive  ought  to  be  independent.  It  ought  therefore  in  order 
to  support  its  independence  to  consist  of  more  than  one. 

M;  Wilson  said  that  unity  in  the  Executive  instead  of  being  the 
fetus  of  monarehy  would  be  the  best  safeguard  against  tyranny.  He 
repeated  that  he  was  not  governed  by  the  British  Model  which  was 


'  The  transcript  here  eubstitutes  the  word  "  considered  "  for  "  conceived.' 


SESSION  OF  FRIDAY,  JUNE  1,  1787 


39 


inapplicable  to  the  situation  of  this  Countiy;  the  extent  of  which 
was  so  great,  and  the  manners  so  republican,  that  nothing  but  a  great 
confederated  Bepublic  would  do  for  it 

M'.  Wilson's  motion  for  a  single  magistrate  was  postponed  by 
common  consent,  the  Committee  seeming  unprepared  for  any  decision 
on  it;  and  the  first  part  of  the  clause  agreed  to,  vis — "that  a 
National  Executive  be  instituted." 

M:  Madison  thought  it  would  be  proper,  before  a  ::hoice  sh?  be 
made  between  a  unity  and  a  plurality  in  the  Executive,  to  fix  the 
extent  of  the  Executive  authority ;  that  as  certain  powers  were  in  their 
nature  Executive,  and  must  be  given  to  that  departmt  whether  ad- 
ministered by  one  or  more  persons,  a  definition  of  their  extent 
would  assist  the  judgment  in  determining  how  far  they  might  be 
safely  entrusted  to  a  single  officer.  He  accordingly  moved  that 
so  much  of  the  clause  before  the  Committee  as  related  to  the 
powers  of  the  Executive  shl  be  struck  out  &  that  after  the  words 
"  that  a  national  Executive  ought  to  be  instituted  "  there  be  inserted 
the  words  following  viz.  "  with  power  to  carry  into  effect  the  national 
laws,  to  appoint  to  offices  in  cases  not  otherwise  provided  for,  and  to 
execute  such  other  powers  "  not  Legislative  nor  Judiciary  in  their 
nature,"  as  may  from  time  to  time  be  delegated  by  the  national 
Legislature."  The  words  "  not  legislative  nor  judiciary  in  their 
nature  "  were  added  to  the  proposed  amendment  in  consequence  of 
a  suggestion  by  Oen.'  Pinkney  that  improper  powers  might  other- 
wise be  delegated. 

M!  Wn.80N  seconded  this  motion — 

M'.  PiNKNET  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  by  striking  out  the 
last  member  of  it;  viz:  "  and  to  execute  such  other  powers  not  Legis- 
lative nor  Judiciary  in  their  nature  as  may  from  time  to  time  be 
delegated."  He  said  they  were  unnecessary,  the  object  of  them  being 
included  in  the  "  power '  to  carry  into  effect  the  national  laws." 

Mr  Randolph  seconded  the  motion. 

W.  Madison  did  not  know  that  the  words  were  absolutely  nece» 
sary,  or  even  the  preceding  words—"  to  appoint  to  offices  &c.  the 
whole  being  perhaps  included  in  the  first  member  of  the  proposi- 
tion. He  did  not  however  see  any  inconveniency  *  in  retaining  them, 
and  cases  might  happen  in  which  they  might  serve  to  prevent  doubts 
and  misconstructions. 

In  consequence  of  the  motion  of  MT  Pinkney,  the  question  on 
Ml  Madison's  motion  was  divided;  and  the  words  objected  to  by 

' The  tranacript  ium  the  word  "power  "  In  the  plural. 

'  The  transcript  changes  the  word  "  inconveniency  "  to  "  iBconTenienee." 


40      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVEiNTION  OF  1787 

Ml  Piiikney  struck  out;  by  the  votes  of  Connecticut,  N.  Y.  N.  J. 
Pen!  Del.  N.  C.  &  Geo.'  eg".'  Mass.  Virg!  &  S.  Carolina '  the  preceding 
part  of  the  motion  being  first  agreed  to;  Connecticut  divided,  all  the 
other  States  in  the  aflSrmative. 

The  next  clause  in  Resolution  7,"  relating  to  the  mode  of  appoint- 
ing, &  the  duration  of,  the  Executive  being  under  consideration, 

W.  Wilson  said  he  was  almost  unwilling  to  declare  the  mode  which 
he  wished  to  take  place,  being  apprehensive  that  it  might  appear 
chimerical.  He  would  say  however  at  least  that  in  theory  he  was  for 
an  election  by  the  people.  Experience,  particularly  in  N.  York  & 
Mass.",  shewed  that  an  election  of  the  first  magistrate  by  the  people 
at  large,  was  both  a  convenient  &  succeasful  mode.  The  objects  of 
choice  in  such  cases  must  be  persons  whose  merits  have  general 

notoriety. 

Mr  Sherman  was  for  the  appointment  by  the  Legislature,  and 
for  making  him  absolutely  dependent  on  that  body,  as  it  was  the 
will  of  that  which  was  to  be  executed.  An  independence  of  the 
Executive  on  the  supreme  Legislature,  was  in  his  opinion  the  very 
essence  of  tyranny  if  there  was  any  such  thing. 

MI  Wilson  moves  that  the  blank  for  the  term  of  duration  should 
be  filled  with  three  years,  observing  at  the  same  time  that  he  pre- 
ferred this  short  period,  on  the  supposition  that  a  r*«ligibUty  would 
be  provided  for. 

W.  PiNKNBT  moves  for  seven  years. 

M:  Sherman  was  for  three  years,  and  ag!*  the  doctrine  of  rotation 
as  throwing  out  of  office  the  men  beet  qualifyed  to  execute  its  duties 

Mr  Mason  was  for  seven  years  at  least,  and  for  prohibiting  a 
re-eligibility  as  the  best  expedient  both  for  preventing  the  effect  of 
a  false  complaisance  on  the  side  of  the  Legislature  towards  unfit 
characters;  and  a  temptation  on  the  side  of  the  Executive  to  intrigue 
with  the  Legislature  for  a  re-appointment. 

Mr  Bedford  was  strongly  opposed  to  so  long  a  term  as  seven 
years.  He  begged  the  committee  to  consider  what  the  situation  of 
the  Country  would  be,  in  case  the  first  magistrate  should  be  saddled 
on  it  for  such  a  period  and  it  should  be  found  on  trial  that  he  did 
not  possess  the  qualifications  ascribed  to  him,  or  should  lose  them 
after  his  appointment.  An  impeachment  he  said  would  be  no  cure 
for  this  evil,  as  an  impeachment  would  reach  misfeasance  only,  not 


■  In  the  transcript  the  figures  "  7  "  and  "3"  are  inserted  after  the  StatM 

GeoririB  and  South  Carolina,  reeptctively.  ,.  ...  ^  .        .^v    *  •  *  #  , 

•The  words  " the  seventh  Resolution "  are  substituted  m  the  transcript  lor 

"  Resolution  7." 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  2,  1787 


41 


incapacity.    He  was  for  a  triennial  election,  and  for  an  ineligibility 
after  a  period  of  nine  years. 

On  the  question  for  seven  years,' 


afi  dividi  Cont  no.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pen?  ay.  Del.  ay. 
Virg?  ay.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  no.  Geor.  no.'  There  being  5  ays,  4  noes, 
1  div%  a  question  was  asked  whether  a  majority  had  voted  in  the 
afRrmativef    The  President  decided  that  it  was  an  affirmative  vote. 

The  mode  of  appointing  the  Executive  was  the  next  question. 

Ml  Wn^soN  renewed  his  declarations  in  favor  of  an  appointment 
by  the  people.  He  wished  to  derive  not  only  both  branches  of  the 
Legislature  from  the  people,  without  the  intervention  of  the  State 
Legislatures  but  the  Executive  also ;  in  order  to  make  them  as  inde- 
pendent as  possible  of  each  other,  as  well  as  of  the  States ; 

Col.  Mason  favors  the  idea,  but  thinks  it  impracticable.  He 
wishes  however  that  M'-  Wilson  might  have  time  to  digest  it  into  his 
own  form. — ^the  clause  "  to  be  chosen  by  the  National  Legislature  " — 
was  accordingly  postponed. — 

M!  RuTUDOB  suggests  an  election  of  the  Executive  by  the  second 
branch  only  of  the  national  Legislature. 

The  Committee  then  rose  and  the  House 
Adjourned. 


Satttrdat  JinfE  2"*  *   In  Couhitteb  of  whole, 

*  [Insert  the  words  noted  here]  *  *  William  Sam?  Johnson  from 
Connecticut,  Daniel  of  St.  Thomas  Jennifer,  from  Mary^  &  John 
Lansing  J(  from  N.  York,  took  their  seats. 

It  was  mov?  &  2**?*  to  postpone  ye  Resol :  of  M?  Randolph  respect- 
ing the  Executive,  in  order  to  take  up  the  21  branch  of  the  Legisla- 
ture; which  being  negatived  by  Mas:  Con:  Del:  Virg:  N.  C.  8.  C. 
(3eo: "  ag^  N.  Y.  Pen?  Mary^»  The  mode  of  appoint'  ye  Executive 
was  resumed. 

Mr  Wilson  made  the  following  motion,  to  be  substituted  for  the 
mode  proposed  by  W.  Randolph's  resolution,  "  that  the  Executive 


*  The  transcript  italicize*  the  phrase  "  for  seven  years." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Yoric,  New  Jener,  Pennsylvania, 
Delaware,  Virginia,  aye — S;  Connecticut,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  no— 4 ;  Massachusetts,  divided." 

*  The  year  "  1787  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  the  trsnscript. 

■  In  the  transcript  the  flgfures  "  7  "  and  "  3  "  are  inserted  after  the  States 
Georgia  and  Maryland,  respectively. 


42      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Magistracy  shall  be  elected  in  the  following  manner:    That  the  States 
be  divided  into  districts:  &  that  the  persona  qualified  to  vote 

in  each  district  for  members  of  the  first  branch  of  the  national 
Legislature   elect  mmbera   for   their    respective    districts   to 

be  electors  of  the  Executive  magistracy,  that  the  said  Electors  of 
the  Executive  magistracy  meet  at  and  they  or  any 

of  them  so  met  shall  proceed  to  elect  by  ballot,  but  not  out  of  their 
own  body  person      in  whom  the  Executive  authority  of  the 

national  Government  shall  be  vested." 

M'  Wilson  repeated  his  arguments  in  favor  of  an  election  with- 
out the  intervention  of  the  States.  He  supposed  too  that  this  mode 
would  produce  more  confidence  among  the  people  in  the  first  magis- 
trate, than  an  election  by  the  national  Legislature. 

W.  Gekbt,  opposed  the  election  by  the  national  legislature.  There 
would  be  a  constant  intrigue  kept  up  for  the  appointment.  The 
Legislature  &  the  candidates  w?  bargain  &  play  into  one  another  s 
hands,  votes  would  be  given  by  the  former  under  promises  or  expec- 
tations from  the  latter,  of  recompensing  them  by  services  to  members 
of  the  Legislature  or  to '  their  friends.  He  liked  the  principle  of  W- 
Wilson's  motion,  but  fears  it  would  alarm  &  give  a  handle  to  the 
State  partisans,  as  tending  to  supersede  altogether  the  State  authori- 
ties He  thought  the  Community  not  yet  ripe  for  stripping  the 
States  of  their  powers,  even  such  as  might  not  be  requisite  for  local 
purposes.  He  was  for  waiting  till  people  should  feel  more  the  neces- 
sity of  it  He  seemed  to  pn-fer  the  taking  the  suffrages  of  the 
States  instead  of  Electors,  or  letting  the  Legislatures  nominate,  and 
the  electors  appoint.  He  was  not  clear  that  the  people  ought  to 
act  directly  even  in  the  choice  of  electors,  being  too  little  in- 
formed  of   personal  characters  in  large   districts,   and  bable  to 

deceptions.  .  .  ^    j    *■       „« 

ir  WauAMSON  could  see  no  advantage  m  the  introduction  or 
Electors  chosen  by  the  people  who  would  stand  in  the  same  relation 
to  them  as  the  State  Legislatures,  whilst  the  expedient  would  be 
attended  with  great  trouble  and  expence. 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  W  Wilson's  substitute,  it  wm 
negatived:  Mass- no.    Con!  no.    N.  Y.  no.*    Kay.    Del.no.    Mar- 
Virg^no.    N.  C.  no.      S.  C.  no.    Geo?  no.» 
•N.  Y.  in  the  printed  Journal— '  divided.' 


ay. 


»The  word  "to"  is  omitted  in  the  transcript.  ...  „.  „._o.  Musgft- 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vot*  reads:  "  Pe™«ylT.''"'."^^TnrtV>  'rZ-tiTna    S^^ 

chusetts,  Connecticut    Now  York/  Delaware,  V.rgmm.  North  Carolina,  bouth 

Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8." 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  2,  1787 


43 


On  the  question  for  electing  the  Ezecntive  by  the  national  Legis- 
lature for  the  term  of  seven  years,  it  was  agreed  to  Mass*!  ay.  Con? 
ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  Penf  no.  DeL  ay.  Maryf  no.  V*  ay.  N.  C.  ay. 
S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.^ 

Docf  Franklin  moved  that  what  related  to  the  compensation  for 
the  services  of  the  Executive  be  postponed,  in  order  to  substitute — 
"  whose  necessary  expences  shall  be  defrayed,  but  who  shall  receive 
no  salary,  stipend  fee  or  reward  whatsoever  for  their  services  " — He 
said  that  being  very  sensible  of  the  eflfect  of  age  on  his  memory,  he 
had  been  unwilling  to  trust  to  that  for  the  observations  which  seemed 
to  support  his  motion,  and  had  reduced  them  to  writing,  that  he 
might  with  the  permission  of  the  Committee  read  instead  of  speaking 
them.  Mf  Wilson  made  an  oflfer  to  read  the  paper,  which  was  ac- 
cepted— The  following  is  a  literal  copy  of  the  paper. 

Sir. 

It  is  with  reluctari'^c  that  I  rise  to  express  a  disapprobation  of 
any  one  article  of  the  plan  for  which  we  are  so  much  obliged  to  the 
honorable  gentleman  who  laid  it  before  us.  Prom  its  first  leading 
I  have  borne  a  good  will  to  it,  and  in  general  wished  it  success.  In 
this  particular  of  salaries  to  the  Executive  branch  I  happen  to 
differ;  and  as  my  opinion  may  appear  new  and  chimerical,  it  is 
only  from  a  persuasion  that  it  is  right,  and  from  a  sense  of  duty 
that  I  hazard  it.  The  Committee  will  judge  of  my  reasons  when 
they  have  heard  them,  and  their  judgment  may  possibly  change 
mine. — I  thinic  I  see  inconveniences  in  the  appointment  of  sal- 
aries; I  see  none  in  refusing  them,  but  on  the  contrary,  great 
advantages. 

Sir,  there  are  two  passions  which  have  a  powerful  influence  on 
the  affairs  of  men.  These  are  ambition  and  avarice;  the  love  of 
power,  and  the  love  of  money.  Separately  each  of  these  has  great 
force  in  prompting  men  to  action;  but  when  united  in  view  of  the 
same  object,  they  have  in  many  minds  the  most  violent  effects.  Place 
before  the  eyes  of  such  men,  a  post  of  honour  that  shall  be  at  the 
same  time  a  place  of  profit,  and  they  will  move  heaven  and  earth  to 
obtain  it.  The  vast  number  of  such  places  it  is  that  renders  the 
British  Government  so  tempestuous.  The  struggles  for  them  are  the 
true  sources  of  all  those  factions  which  are  perpetually  dividing  the 
Nation,  distracting  its  Councils,  hurrying  sometimes  into  fruitless  & 


'  In  the  tranncript  the  vote  reads :  "  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  York, 
Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Cieorgia,  ay^— 8;  Pennsyl- 
vania, Mainland,  no — 2." 


44      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 
mischievous  wars,  and  often  conipeUing  a  submission  to  dishonorable 

terms  of  peace.  .  fl*.w„ 

And  of  what  kind  are  the  men  that  will  strive  for  this  profitable 
pre-eminence,  through  all  the  bustle  of  cabal,  the  heat  of  contention, 
the  infinite  mutual  abuse  of  parties,  tearing  to  pieces  the  best  of 
charactere  t  It  will  not  be  the  wise  and  moderate ;  the  lovers  of  peace 
and  good  order,  the  men  fittest  for  the  trust.  It  will  be  the  bold 
and  the  violent,  the  men  of  strong  passions  and  indefatigable  activity 
in  their  selfish  pursuits.  These  will  thrust  themselves  into  your  Gov- 
ernment and  be  your  •  ^-And  these  too  will  be  mistaken  in  the 
expected  happiness  ot  tnej-  situation:  For  their  vanquished  competi- 
tors  of  the  saiue  spirit,  and  from  the  same  motives  will  perpetually 
be  endeavouring  to  distress  their  administration,  thwart  their  meas- 
ures, and  fonder  them  odious  to  the  people. 

BesidLS  these  evils,  Sir,  tho'  we  may  set  out  in  the  beginning  with 
moderate  salaries,  we  shall  find  that  such  will  not  be  of  long  con- 
tinuance.    Reasons  will  never  be  wanting  for  proposed  augmentar 
tions.     And  there  wiU  always  be  a  party  for  giving  more  to  the 
rulers,  that  the  rulers  may  be  able  in  return  to  give  more  to  them.— 
Hence  as  all  history  informs  us,  there  has  been  in  every  State  & 
Kingdom   a  constant  kind  of  warfare  between  the  governing  & 
governed:  the  one  striving  to  obtain  more  for  its  support,  and  the 
other  to  pay  leas.    And  this  has  alone  occasioned  great  convulsions, 
actual  civil  wars,  ending  either  in  dethroning  of  the  Princes,  or 
enslaving  of  the  people.    Generally  indeed  the  ruling  power  carries 
its  point,  the  revenues  of  princes  constantly  increasing,  and  we  see 
that  they  are  never  satisfied,  but  always  in  want  of  more.    The  more 
the  people  are  discontented  with  the  oppression  of  taxes;  the  greater 
need  the  prince  has  of  money  to  distribute  among  his  partizans  and 
pay  the  troops  that  are  to  suppress  all  resistance,  and  enable  him  to 
plunder  at  pleasure.    There  is  scarce  a  king  in  a  hundred  who  would 
not,  if  he  could,  follow  the  example  of  Pharoah,  get  first  aU  the  peoples 
money,  then  all  their  lands,  and  then  make  them  and  their  chUdren 
servants  for  ever.    It  will  be  said,  that  we  don't  propose  to  establish 
Kings.    I  know  it    But  there  is  a  natural  inclination  in  mankind 
to  Kingly  Government.    It  sometimes  relieves  them  from  Aristocratic 
domination.    They  had  rather  have  one  tyrant  than  five  hundred. 
It  gives  more  of  the  appearance  of  equality  among  Citizens,  and  ttiat 
they  like.     I  am  apprehensive  therefore,  perhaps  too  apprehensive, 
that  the  Government  of  these  States,  may  in  future  times,  end  in 
a  Monarchy.    But  this  Catastrophe  I  think  may  be  long  delayed,  if 
in  our  proposed  System  we  do  not  sow  the  seeds  of  contention,  faction 


SESSION  OF  SATURDAY,  JUNE  2.  1787  45 

ft  tumult,  by  making  our  posts  of  honor,  places  of  profit.  If  we  do, 
I  fear  that  tho'  we  do  employ  at  first  a  number,  and  not  a  single 
person,  the  number  will  in  time  be  set  aside,  it  will  only  nourish  the 
fcEtus  of  a  King,  as  the  honorable  gentleman  from  Virginia  veiy 
aptly  expressed  it,  and  a  King  will  the  sooner  be  set  over  us. 

It  may  be  imagined  by  some  that  thia  is  an  Utopian  Idea,  and 
that  we  can  never  find  men  to  serve  us  in  the  Executive  department, 
without  paying  them  well  for  their  services.    I  conceive  this  to  be 
a  mistake.    Some  existing  facts  present  themselves  to  me,  which  in- 
cline me  to  a  contrarj'  opinion.    The  high  SheriflP  of  a  County  in 
England  is  an  honorable  office,  but  it  is  not  a  profitable  one.    It  is 
rather  expensive  and  therefore  not  sought  for.    But  yet,  it  is  executed 
and  well  executed,  and  usually  by  some  of  the  principal  Gentlemen 
of  the  County.    In  France,  the  office  of  Counsellor  or  Member  of 
their  Judiciary  Parliaments  is  more  honorable.    It  is  therefore  pur- 
chased at  a  high  price:  There  are  indeed  fees  on  the  law  proceedings, 
which  are  divided  among  them,  but  these  fees  do  not  amount  to 
more  than  three  per  Cent  on  the  sum  paid  for  the  place.    Therefore 
as  legal  intereet  is  there  at  five  per  C^  they  in  fact  pay  two  per  C 
for  being  allowed  to  do  the  Judiciary  business  of  the  Nation,  which 
is  at  the  same  time  entirely  exempt  from  the  burden  of  paying  them 
any  salaries  for  their  servic*".    I  do  not  however  mean  to  recommend 
this  as  an  eligible  mode  for  our  Judiciary  department.    I  only  bring 
the  instance  to  shew  that  the  pleasure  of  doing  good  &  serving  their 
Country  and  the  respect  such  conduct  entitles  them  to,  are  sufficient 
motives  with  some  minds  to  give  up  a  great  portion  of  their  time 
to  the  public,  without  the  mean  inducement  of  pecuniary  satisfaction. 
Another  instance  is  that  of  a  respectable  Society  who  have  made 
the  experiment,  and  practised  it  with  success  more  than  an*  hun- 
dred years.     I  mean  the  Quakers.     It  is  an  established  rule  with 
them,  that  they  are  not  to  go  to  law ;  but  in  their  controversies  they 
must  apply  to  their  monthly,  quarterly  and  yearly  meetings.    Com- 
mittees of  these  sit  with  patience  to  hear  the  parties,  and  spend  much 
time  in  composing  their  differences.     In  doing  this,  they  are  sup- 
ported by  a  sense  of  duty,  and  the  respect  paid  to  usefulness.    It 
is  honorable  to  be  so  employed,  but  it  was  *  never  made  profitable  by 
salaries,  fees,  or  perquisites.    And  indeed  in  all  cases  of  public  service 
the  less  the  profit  the  greater  the  honor. 

To  bring  the  matter  nearer  home,  have  we  not  seen,  the  great 
and  most  important  of  our  offices,  that  of  General  of  our  armies 


•The  word  "one"  is  giilwtitutcd  in  the  transcript  for  "an." 
The  word  "  is  "  is  substituted  in  tho  transcript  for  "  was." 


I-''.*; 


46      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

executed  for  eight  years  together  without  the  smallest  salary,  by  a 
Patriot  whom  1  will  not  now  oflfend  by  any  other  praise;  and  this 
through  fatigues  and  distresses  in  common  with  the  other  brave  men 
his  miUtary  friends  &  companions,  and  the  constant  anxieties  peculiar 
to  his  station!  And  shall  we  doubt  finding  three  or  four  men  in  all 
the  U  States,  with  public  spirit  enough  to  bear  sittuig  in  peaceful 
Council  for  perhaps  an  equal  term,  merely  to  preside  over  our  civU 
concerns,  and  see  that  our  laws  are  duly  executed.  Sir,  I  have  a 
better  opinion  of  our  Country.  I  think  we  shall  never  be  without 
a  sufficient  number  of  wise  and  good  men  to  undertake  and  execute 
well  and  faithfully  the  office  in  question. 

Sir  The  saving  of  the  salaries  that  t  ay  at  first  be  proposed  m 
not  an' object  with  me.  The  subsequent  mischiefs  of  proposing  them 
are  what  I  apprehend.  And  therefore  it  is,  that  I  move  the  amend- 
ment  If  it  is  not  seconded  or  accepted  I  must  be  contented  with  the 
satisfaction  of  having  delivered  my  opinion  frankly  and  done  my 

'^"^The  motion  was  seconded  by  Col.  Hamilton  with  the  view  he  said 
merely  of  bringing  so  respectable  a  proposition  before  *»«  /'O™- 
mittee  and  which  was  besides  enforced  by  arguments  that  had  a 
certain  degree  of  weight.  No  debate  ensued,  and  the  proposition  was 
postponed  for  the  consideration  of  the  members.  It  was  treated  with 
great  respect,  but  rather  for  the  author  of  it,  than  from  any  apparent 
conviction  of  its  expediency  or  practicability. 

W  Dickenson  moved  "  thai  '  e  Executive  be  made  removeable 
by  the  National  Legislature  on  the  request  of  a  majority  of  the  Leg* 
latures  of  individual  States."  It  was  necessary  he  said  to  place  the 
power  of  removing  somewhere.  He  did  not  like  the  plan  of  im- 
peaching the  Great  officers  of  State.  He  did  not  know  how  provision 
could  be  made  for  removal  of  them  in  a  better  mode  than  that  which 
he  had  proposed.  He  had  no  idea  of  abolishing  the  State  Governments 
as  some  gentlemen  seemed  inclined  to  do.  The  happiness  of  this 
Country  in  his  opinion  required  considerable  powers  to  be  left  in 
the  hands  of  the  States. 

M'  Bedford  seconded  the  motion. 

W  Sherman  contended  that  the  National  Legislature  should  have 
power  to  remove  the  Executive  at  pleasure. 

W-  llA'^oN.  Some  mode  of  displacing  an  unfit  magistrate  is  ren- 
dered indispensable  by  the  fallibility  of  those  who  choose,  as  weU  as 
by  the  corruptibility  of  the  man  chosen.  He  opposed  decidedly  the 
making  the  Executive  the  mere  creature  of  the  Legislature  as  a 
violation  of  the  fundamental  principle  of  good  Government. 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  2,  1787  « 

M?  Madison  &  W  Wilson  oWrved  that  it  would  leave  an  equality 
of  agency  m  the  small  with  the  great  State.;  that  it  would  enable 
a  minority  of  the  people  to  prevent  y?  removal  of  an  officer  who  had 
rendered  him«elf  justly  criminal  in  the  eyes  of  a  majority;  that  it 
would  open  a  door  for  intrigues  agf  him  in  States  where  his  adminia- 
tration  tho'  just  might  be  unpopular,  and  might  tempt  him  to  pay 
court  to  particular  States  whose  leading  partizans  he  might  fear 
or  wish  to  engage  as  his  partizans.  They  both  thought  it  bad  policy 
to  introduce  such  a  mixture  of  the  State  authorities,  where  their 
agency  could  be  otherwise  supplied. 

M'.  Dickenson  considered  the  business  aa  so  important  that  no 
man  ought  to  be  sUent  or  reserved.     He  went  into  a  discourse  of 
some  length,  the  sum  of  which  was,  that  the  Legislative,  Executive  & 
Judiciary  departments  ought  to  be  made  as  independ!  as  possible-  but 
that  such  an  Executive  as  some  seemed  to  have  in  contemplation'  was 
not  consistent  with  a  republic:  that  a  firm  Executive  could  only  exist 
in  a  limited  monarchy.    In  the  British  Gov.'  itself  the  weight  of  the 
Executive  arises  from  the  attachments  which  the  Crown  draws  to 
Itself,  &  not  merely  from  the  force  of  its  prerogatives.    In  place  of 
these  attachments  we  must  look  out  for  something  else.    One  source 
of  stabUity  is  the  double  branch  of  the  Legislature.    The  division  of 
the  Country  into  distinct  States  formed  the  other  principal  source 
of  stabdity.     This  division  ought  therefore  to  be  maintained    and 
considerable  powers  to  be  left  with  the  States.    This  was  the  ground 
of  his  consolation  for  the  future  fate  of  his  Country.    Without  this, 
and  in  case  of  a  consolidation  of  the  States  into  one  great  Republic 
we  might  read  its  fate  in  the  history  of  smaller  ones.    A  limited 
Monarchy  he  considered  as  one  of  the  best  Governments  in  the  worid. 
It  was  not  certain  that  the  same  blessings  were  derivable  from  any 
other  form.    It  was  certain  that  equal  blessings  had  never  yet  been 
derived  from  any  of  the  republican  form.     A   limited  Monarchy 
however  was  out  of  the  question.    The  spirit  of  the  time»-the  state 
of  our  aflfairs,  forbade  the  experiment,  if  it  were  desireable.    Was  it 
possible  moreover  in  the  nature  of  things  to  introduce  it  even  if  these 
obstacles  were  less  insuperable.     A  House  of  Nobles  was  essential 
to  such  a  Gov'  could  these  be  created  by  a  breath,  or  by  a  stroke  of 
the  pent    No.    They  were  the  growth  of  ages,  and  could  only  arise 
under  a  complication  of  circumstances  none  of  which  existed  in  this 
Country.    But  thougii  a  form  the  most  perfect  perhaps  in  itself  be 
unattainable,  we  must  not  despair.    If  antient  republics  have  been 
found  to  flourish  for  a  moment  only  &  then  vanish  for  ever,  it  only 
proves  that  they  were  badly  constituted;  and  that  we  ought  to  seek 


11 


48     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

for  every  remedy  for  their  diseaaei.  One  of  theM  remedies  he  con- 
ceived to  be  the  accidenUl  lucky  division  of  thi.  Country  into  duUnct 
Statei ;  a  divi«ion  which  Bome  seemed  desirous  to  abolish  altogether. 
As  to  the  point  of  representation  in  the  national  Legislature  as 
it  might  affect  States  of  different  sizes,  he  said  it  must  probably  end 
in  mutual  concession.  He  hoped  that  each  State  would  retain  an 
equal  voice  at  least  in  one  branch  of  the  National  Legislature,  and 
supposed  the  sum*  paid  within  each  State  would  form  a  better  ratio 
for  the  other  branch  than  either  the  number  of  inhabitants  or  the 
quantum  of  property.  , 

A  motion  being  made  to  strike  out  "on  request  by  •  majority 
of  the  LegUlatures  of  the  individual  States  "  and  rejected,  Con- 
necticut,  S.  Carol:  &  Geo.  being  ay,  the  rest  no:  the  question  waa 

On  Xr  Dickenson's  motion  for  making '  Executive  removeable  by » 
Nat»  Legislature  at'  request  of  majority  of  State  Legislatures*  was 
also  rejected— all  the  States  being  in  the  negative  Except  Delaware 
which  gave  an  aflRrmative  vote. 

The  Question  for  making  y*  Executive  ineligible  after  seven  years, 
was  next  taken,  and  agreed  to : 

Mass*!  ay.  Coni  no.  N.  T.  ay.  K  di^--.  Del.  ay.  Mary*  ay. 
V^ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no:«» 

W.  "Williamson  2**  by  M:  Davus  moved  to  add  to  the  last  Clause, 
the  words— "  and  to  be  removeable  on  impeachment  ft  conviction  of 
mal-practice  or  neglect  of  duty  "—which  was  agreed  to- 

W  RuTLiDOE  ft  MT  C.  PiNKNBT  movcd  that  the  blank  for  the  n. 
of  peraons  in  the  Executive  be  filled  with  the  words  "  one  person.'' 
He  supposed  the  reasons  to  be  so  obviouB  ft  conclusive  in  favor  of 
one  that  no  member  would  oppose  the  motion. 

Mr  Randolph  opposed  it  with  great  earnestness,  declaring  that  be 
should  not  do  justice  to  the  Country  which  sent  him  if  he  were 
silentlv  to  suffer  the  establishm^  of  a  Unity  in  the  Executive  depart- 
ment.'  He  felt  an  opposition  to  it  which  he  believed  he  should  con- 


•  In  •  printed  Journal  Geo.  ay. 


»  TTie  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  a  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•The  word  "which"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcr  pt. 

•The   phrase   "  ippligible   after    seven   years"    is   italicized    m    the   tran- 

•^''*ln  the  tran«.ript  the  vote  reads:  "MassachnsetU.  ^^^^.^ork  „^lawnr. 
Maryland,  Virginia.  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye-7;  Connecticut. 
Georeia,*  no— 2;  Pennsylvania,  divided." 

•The  word  " the "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JUNE  4,  1787  49 

tinne  to  feel  aa  long  m  he  lived.  He  urged  l.»  that  the  permanent 
temper  of  the  people  waa  advene  to  the  very  aemblance  of  Monarchy. 
2.'  that  a  unity  waa  unneceaaary  a  plurality  be»"g  equally  competent 
to  all  the  objecta  of  the  department  3.*  that  the  neceagary  con- 
fidence would  never  be  repoaed  in  a  aingle  Magiatrate.  4.»  that  the 
appointmenta  would  generally  be  in  favor  of  aome  inhabitant  near 
the  center  of  the  Community,  and  conaequently  the  remote  parta 
would  not  be  on  an  equal  footing.  He  waa  in  favor  of  three  mem- 
hers  of  the  Executive  to  be  drawn  from  different  portiona  of  the 
Country. 

Mf  BtTTLiB  contended  strongly  for  a  single  magistrate  as  moat 
likely  to  answer  the  purpose  of  the  remote  parU.  If  one  man  should 
be  appointed  he  would  be  responsible  to  the  whole,  and  would  be 
impartial  to  ita  interests.  If  three  or  more  should  be  taken  from  aa 
many  districts,  there  would  be  a  constant  struggle  for  local  advan- 
tages. In  Military  matters  this  would  be  particularly  mischievous. 
Ht  said  his  opinion  on  this  point  had  been  formed  under  the  oppor- 
tunity he  had  had  of  seeing  the  manner  in  which  a  plurality  of  mili- 
tary heada  •  distracted  Holland  when  threatened  with  invasion  by  the 
imperial  troops.  One  man  was  for  directing  the  force  to  the  defence 
of  this  part,  another  to  that  part  of  the  Country,  just  as  he  happened 
to  be  swayed  by  prejudice  or  interest. 

The  motion  waa  then  poatp?  the  Committee  roae  &  the  House  Adj*? 


Monday  June  4.^   In  CoMMrmB  op  the  ^moLS. 

The  Question  was  resumed  on  motion  of  W  Pinknet  2*?*  by 
•Wilson,  "  shall  the  blank  for  the  number  of  the  Executive  be  filled 
with  a  single  person  t  " 

Mr  Wilson  waa  in  favor  of  the  motion.  It  had  been  c  nposed  by 
the  gentleman  from  Virg*  [Ml  3andolph]  but  the  arguments  used 
had  not  convinced  him.  He  observed  that  the  objections  of  M!  R. 
were  levelled  not  so  much  ag?  the  measure  itself,  as  agf  its  unpopu- 
larity. If  he  could  suppose  that  it  would  occasion  a  rejection  of 
the  plan  of  which  it  should  form  a  part,  though  the  part  was  ■  an 


...v.lP*.."*^/*',"'"  "*•"  "3"  aiid  "4"  sre  cl»ng«l  to  "flrrt,"  "•econdly," 
"  thirdly  "  and  "  fourthly."  ' 

•  The  tmnscript  italicizpt  the  phrase  "  plurality  of  military  heads." 
•The  year  "  1787"  i»  here  inierted  in  the  traneorlpt. 

•  The  transcript  inserts  the  word  "  Mr."  before  "  Wilson." 

•  The  word  "waa"  is  changed  to  "were"  in  the  transcript. 


50   DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

important  one,  yet  he  would  give  It  up  rather  thwi  Ice*  the  whole. 
On  pxaminttion  he  could  eee  no  evidence  of  the  alledged  antipathy 
of  the  people.    On  the  contrary  he  waa  perauaded  that  it  doea  not 
exiat.    All  know  that  a  aingle  maglatrate  ia  not  a  King.    One  fact  haa 
great  weight  with  him.     All  the  13  Staten  tho  agreeing  in  aoaree 
any  other  instance,  agree  in  placing  a  aingle  magiatrate  at  the  head 
of  the  Govern'.    The  idea  cf  three  hcada  haa  Uken  place  in  none. 
The  degree  of  power  ia  indeed  uifferent;  but  there  are  no  co-ordinate 
heads.     In  addition  to  hia  former  reasoni  for  preferring  a  unity, 
he  would  mention  another.    The  tranquility  not  leia  than  the  vigor 
of- the  Gov?  he  thought  would  be  favored  by  it.    Among  three  equal 
members,  he  foresaw  nothing  but  uncontrouled,  continued,  ft  violent 
animosities;  which  would  not  only  interrupt  the  public  administra- 
tion; but  diffuse  their  poison  thro'  the  other  branches  of  Gov^  thro' 
the  States,  and  at  length  thro'  the  people  at  large.    If  the  membera 
were  to  be  unequal  in  power  the  principle  of  the '  opposition  to  the 
unity  was  given  up.    If  equal,  the  making  them  an  odd  number  would 
not  be  a  remedy.    In  Courta  of  Justice  there  are  two  aidea  only  to  a 
question.    In  the  Legislative  &  Executive  departm*?  questions  have 
commouly  many  sides.     Each  member  therefore  might  espouse  • 
separate  one  &  no  two  agree. 

M'.  Sheriian.  This  matter  is  of  great  importance  and  ought  to 
be  well  considered  before  it  is  determined.  Mr  Wilaon  he  said  had 
observed  that  in  each  State  a  single  magistrate  waa  placed  at  the 
head  of  the  Gov^  It  waa  so  he  admitted,  and  properly  so,  and  he 
wished  the  same  policy  to  prevail  in  the  federal  Gov?  ^ut  then  it 
should  be  also  remarked  that  in  all  the  States  there  was  a  Council  of 
advice,  without  which  the  first  magistrate  could  not  act.  A  council 
he  thought  necesaaiy  to  make  the  establishment  acceptable  to  the 
people.  Even  in  G.  B.  the  King  has  a  Council;  and  though  he 
appoints  it  himself,  its  advice  haa  its  weight  with  him,  and  attracta 
the  Confidence  of  the  people. 

MT  WnxiAMsoN  aska  M'.  Wilson  whether  he  means  to  annex  « 

Council. 

Mr  Wilson  means  to  have  no  Council,  which  oftener  serves  to 
cover,  than  prevent  malpractices. 

M:  Gerby  was  at  a  loss  to  discover  the  policy  of  three  members 
for  the  Executive.  It  w^  be  extremely  inconvenient  in  many  in- 
Btances,  particularly  in  military  matters,  whether  relating  to  the 
militia,  an  army,  or  a  navy.    It  would  be  a  general  with  three  heads. 


«  The  word  "  the  "  i«  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JUNE  4,  1787 


51 


On  the  question  for  •  liogle  Executive  it  wan  agreed  to  Man*! 
•jr.  ConJ  «y.  N.  Y.  no.  Pen*  ay.  Del.  no.  Mary^.  no.  Virg.  ay. 
(M'  R.  &  M:  DlAir  no— Doci  M'Cf  Ml  M.  k  Qtn  W.  ay.  Col.  Maaon 
being  no,  but  not  in  houae,  M(  Wythe  ay  but  gone  home].  N.  C.  ay. 
8.  C.    ay.    Oeorg*  uy.' 

Pint  Clauar  of  Propoaition  8*^ '  relating  to  a  Council  of  Reviaion 
taken  into  consideration. 

M?  Qbuy  doubts  whether  the  Judiciary  ought  to  form  a  part 
of  it,  u  they  will  have  a  sufficient  check  agf*  encroachments  on  their 
own  department  by  their  exposition  of  the  laws,  which  involved  a 
power  of  deciding  on  their  Constitutionality.  In  some  States  the 
Judges  had  actually  set  aside  laws  as  being  tgf  the  Constitution. 
This  wa^  done  too  with  general  approbation.  It  waa  quite  foreign 
from  the  nature  of  y^  office  to  make  them  judges  of  the  poUey  of  public 
measures.  He  moves  to  postpone  the  clause  in  order  to  propose  "  that 
the  National  Executive  shall  have  a  right  to  negative  any  Legislative 
act  which  shall  not  be  afterwards  passed  by  parts  of  each 

branch  of  the  national  Legislature." 

M'.  Kino  seconds  the  motion,  observing  that  the  Judges  ought  to 
be  able  to  expound  the  law  as  it  should  come  before  them,  free  from 
the  bias  of  having  participated  in  ita  formation. 

M'.  Wilson  thinks  neither  the  original  proposition  nor  the  amend- 
utent  go  far  enough.  If  the  Legislative  Exetv  &  Judiciary  ought  to 
be  distinct  &  independent.  The  Executive  ou^ht  to  have  an  absolute 
negative.  Without  such  a  self-defence  the  Legislature  can  at  any 
moment  sink  it  into  non-existence.  He  was  for  varying  the  proposi- 
tion in  such  a  manner  as  to  give  the  Executive  ft  Judiciary  jointly 
■n  absolute  negative. 

On  the  question  to  postpone  in  order  to  take  W  Oerry's  proposi- 
tion into  consideration  it  was  agreed  to.  Mass!  ay.  Con',  no.  N.  Y. 
ay.  F*.  ay.  DeL  no.  Mary^  no.  Virg?  no.  N.  C.  ay.  S.  C.  ay. 
Q*.  8y.» 

Ml  Qerrt's  proposition  being  now  before  *  Committee,  M*.  Wilson 
A  M;  Hamilton  move  that  the  last  part  of  it  [viz.  "  w'^  &'  not  be 

■In  the  tranarript  the  vote  reads:  "  MaiMchuMtt*,  Connectieat,  Penniyl- 
vsnis,  Virginia,  (Mr.  Randolph  and  Mr.  Blair,  no;  Doctor  McClurg,  Mr. 
Madiion,  and  General  Washington,  aye;  Colonel  Mason  being  no,  but  not  in  the 
Bouse,  Mr.  Wythe,  aye,  but  gone  home).  North  Carolina,  South  Csrolina, 
Georgia,  aye — 7 ;  New  Yoric,  Delaware,  Maryland,  no— 3." 

■The  phrase  "the  eighth  Resolution"  is  subatituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  Proposition  8th  •• 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  Massachusetts,  New  Yoric,  PennsylTaaia, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 6;  Connecticut,  Delaware,  Maij^ 
land,  Virginia,  no — 4." 

*  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


f  I 


52     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

afterw*  passed  unless »  by  parts  of  each  branch  of  the  Na^ 

tional  legislature]  be  struck  out,  so  as  to  give  the  Executive  an 
absolute  negative  on  the  laws.  There  was  no  danger  they  thought 
of  such  a  power  being  too  much  exercised.  It  was  mentioned  by 
Col:  Hamilton  that  the  King  of  G.  B.  had  not  exerted  his  negative 
since  the  Revolution. 

MI  Geeby  sees  no  necessity  for  so  great  a  controul  over  the  legis- 
lature as  the  best  men  in  the  Community  would  be  comprised  in  the 
two  branches  of  it. 

Doc!  Franklin,  said  he  was  sorry  to  differ  from  his  colleague 
for  whom  he  had  a  very  great  i-espect,  on  any  occasion,  but  he  could 
not  help  it  on  this.    He  had  had  some  experience  of  this  check  in 
the  Executive  on  the  Legislature,  under  the  proprietary  Government 
of  Pen!    The  negative  of  the  Governor  was  constantly  made  use  of 
to  extort  money.     No  good  law  whatever  could  be  passed  without 
a  private  bargain  with  him.     An  increase  of  his  salary,  or  some 
donation,  was  always  made  a  condition;  till  at  last  it  became  the 
regular  practice,  to  have  orders  in  his  favor  on  the  Treasury,  pre- 
sented along  with  the  bills  to  be  si,?ned,  so  that  he  might  actually 
receive  the  former  before  he  should  sign  the  latter.     When  the 
Indians  were  scalping  the  western  people,  and  notice  of  it  amve^ 
the  concurrence  of  the  Governor  in  the  means  of  self-defence  could 
not  be  got,  till  it  was  agreed  that  his  Estate  should  be  exempted  from 
taxation:  so  that  the  people  were  to  fight  for  the  security  of  his 
property,  whilst  he  was  to  bear  no  share  of  the  burden.    This  was  « 
mischievous  sort  of  check.    If  the  Executive  was  to  have  a  CouncU. 
such  a  power  would  be  less  objectionable.    It  was  true,  the  King  of 
G  B  had  not,  as  was  said,  exerted  his  negative  since  the  Revolution; 
but  that  matter  was  easily  explained.    The  bribes  and  emoluments 
now  given  to  the  members  of  pariiament  rendered  it  unnecessa^, 
every  thing  being  done  according  to  the  will  of  the  Ministers.    He 
was  afraid,  if  a  negative  should  be  given  as  proposed,  that  more 
power  and  money  would  be  demanded,  till  at  last  eno'  would  be 
gotten '  to  influence  &  bribe  the  Legislature  into  a  compleat  subjection 
to  the  wQl  of  the  Executive. 

M:  Sherman  was  ag^  enabling  any  one  man  to  stop  the  will  ot 
the  whole.  No  one  man  could  be  found  so  far  above  all  the  rest  in 
wisdom.  He  thought  we  ought  to  avail  ourselves  of  his  wisdom  in 
revising  the  laws,  but  not  permit  him  to  overule  the  decided  and 
cool  opinions  of  the  Legislature. 

»  The  word  "  unless  "  is  crossed  out  in  the  transcript.  ,  „     ^^      „ 

.  JI";^^  4n"eript  the  syll.We  "ten"  is  striclcen  from  the  word  "gotten." 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JUNE  4,  1787 


53 


M?  Madison  snppowd  that  if  a  proper  proportion  of  each  branch 
ahould  be  required  to  overrule  the  objections  of  the  Executive,  it 
would  enswer  the  same  purpose  as  an  absolute  negative.  It  would 
rarely  11  ever  happen  that  the  Executive  constituted  as  ours  is  pro- 
posed to  be  would,  have  firmness  eno'  to  resist  the  l^^ature,  unless 
backed  by  a  certain  part  of  the  body  itself.  The  King  of  0.  B.  with 
all  his  splendid  attributes  would  not  be  able  to  withstand  y?  unani- 
mous and  eager  wishes  of  both  houses  of  Parliament.  To  give  such 
a  prerogative  would  certainly  be  obnoxious  to  the  temper  of  this 
Cknmtry;  its  present  temper  at  least. 

W.  WiLSOK  believed  as  others  did  that  this  power  would  seldom 
be  used.  The  Legislature  would  know  that  such  a  power  listed, 
and  would  refrain  from  such  laws,  as  it  would  be  sure  to  defeat  Its 
silent  operation  would  therefore  preserve  harmony  and  prevent  mis- 
chief. The  case  of  Pen*  formeriy  was  very  difFerent  from  its  present 
ease.  The  Executive  was  not  then  as  now  to  be  appointed  by  the 
people.  It  will  not  in  this  case  as  in  the  one  cited  be  supported  by  the 
head  of  a  Great  Empire,  actuated  by  a  different  &  sometimes  opposite 
interest  The  salary  too  is  now  pr  >ed  to  be  fixed  by  the  Consti- 
tution, or  if  DT  F.'a  idea  should  be  auopted  all  salary  whatever  inter- 
dicted. The  requiring  a  large  proportion  of  each  House  to  overrule 
the  Executive  check  might  do  in  peaceable  times;  but  there  might 
be  tempestuous  moments  in  which  animosities  may  run  high  between 
the  Executive  and  Legislative  branches,  and  in  which  the  former 
ought  to  be  able  to  defend  itself. 

W  Bun J8  had  been  in  favor  of  a  single  Executive  Magistrate ; 
but  could  he  have  entertained  an  idea  that  a  compleat  negative  on 
the  laws  was  to  be  given  him  he  certainly  should  have  acted  very 
differently.  It  had  been  observed  that  in  all  countries  the  Execu- 
tive power  is  in  a  constant  course  of  increase.  This  was  certainly 
the  case  in  0.  B.  Oentlemen  seemed  to  think  that  we  had  nothing 
to  apprehend  from  an  abuse  of  the  Executive  power.  But  why 
might  not  a  Cataline  or  a  Cromwell  arise  in  this  Country  as  well  as 
in  others. 

Mt  BEDroBO  was  opposed  to  every  check  on  the  Legislative,*  even 
the  Council  of  Revision  first  proposed.  He  thought  it  would  be 
sufficient  to  marie  out  in  the  Constitution  the  boundaries  to  the  Legis- 
lative Authority,  which  would  give  all  the  requisite  security  to  the 
rights  of  the  other  departments.  The  Representatives  of  the  people 
were  the  best  Judges  of  what  was  for  their  interest,  and  ought  to 

■  In  the  tranicript  the  syllable  "  tire "  U  •trickcn  from  the  word  "  Legi*. 
Utive"  and  "ture"  u  written  above  it 


54      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

be  under  no  external  controul  whatever.    The  two  branches  would  pro- 
Jiuce  a  suflBcient  controul  within  the  Legislature  itself. 

Col.  Mason  observed  that  a  vote  had  already  passed  he  found 
[he  was  out  at  the  time]  for  vesting  the  executive  powers  in  a  single 
person.    Among  these  powers  was  that  of  appointing  to  offices  in 
certain  cases.    The  probable  abuses  of  a  negative  had  been  weU  ex- 
plained by  Dt  F.  as  proved  by  experience,  the  best  of  all  tests. 
Will  not  the  same  door  be  opened  here.    The  Executive  may  refuse 
its  assent  to  necessary  measures  till  new  appointments  shall  be  re- 
ferred to  him;  and  having  by  degrees  engrossed  ail  these  into  his 
own  hands,  the  American  Executive,  like  the  British,  wUl  by  bribery 
&  influence,  save  himself  the  trouble  &  odium  of  exerting  his  nega- 
tive afterwards.    We  are  Mi  Chairman  going  very  far  in  this  busi- 
ness.   We  are  not  indeed  constituting  a  British  Government,  but  a 
more  dangerous  monarchy,  an  elective  one.    We  are  introducing  a 
new  principle  into  our  system,  and  not  necessary  as  in  the  British 
Gov^  where  the  Executive  has  greater  rights  to  defend.    Do  genUe- 
men  mean  to  pave  the  way  to  hereditary  Monarchy!    Do  they  flatter 
themselves  that  the  people  will  ever  consent  to  such  an  innovation! 
If  they  do  I  venture  to  teU  them,  they  are  mistaken.    The  people 
never  will  consent.    And  do  gentlemen  consider  the  danger  of  delay, 
and  the  still  greater  danger  of  a  a  rejection,  not  for  a  moment  but 
forever,  of  the  plan  which  shaU  be  proposed  to  them.    Notwithstanding 
the  oppreasions  &  injustice  experienced  among  us  from  democracy; 
the  genius  of  the  people  is  in  favor  of  it,  and  the  genius  of  the 
people  must  be  consulted.    He  could  not  but  consider  the  federal 
system  as  in  effect  dissolved  by  the  appointment  of  this  Convention 
to  devise  a  better  one.    And  do  gentlemen  look  forward  to  the  dan- 
gerous interval  between  the  extinction  of  an  old,  and  the  establishment 
of  a  new  Govemmt  and  to  the  scenes  of  confusion  which  may  ensue. 
He  hoped  that  nothing  like  a  Monarchy  would  ever  be  attempted  in 
this  Country.     A  hatred  to  its  oppressions  had  carried  the  people 
through  the  late  Revolution.    Will  it  not  be  eno'  to  enable  the  Execu- 
tive to  suspend  offensive  laws,  till  they  shall  be  coolly  revised,  and 
the  objections  to  them  overruled  by  a  greater  majority  than  was  re- 
quired in  the  first  instance.    He  never  could  agree  to  give  up  all  the 
rights  of  the  people  to  a  single  Magistrate.    If  more  than  one  had 
been  fixed  on,  greater  powers  might  have  been  entrusted  to  the 
Executive.    He  hoped  this  attempt  to  give  such  powers  would  have 
ita  weight  hereafter  as  an  argument  for  increasing  the  number  of 
the  Executive. 

Doc'.  Frankun.    A  Gentleman  from  S.  C.  [M'.  Butler]  a  day  or 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JUNE  4,  1787 


55 


two  ago  called  our  attention  to  the  ease  of  the  U.  Netherlands.  He 
wished  the  gentleman  had  been  a  little  fuller,  and  had  gone  back  to 
the  original  of  that  Got^  The  people  being  under  great  obliga- 
tions to  the  Prince  of  Orange  whose  wisdom  and  bravery  had 
saved  them,  chose  him  for  the  Stadtholder.  He  did  very  well. 
Inconveniences  however  were  felt  from  his  powers;  which  growing 
more  &  more  oppressive,  they  were  at  length  set  aside.  Still  how- 
ever there  was  a  party  for  the  P.  of  Orange,  which  descended  to 
his  son  who  excited  insurrections,  spilt  a  great  deal  of  blood,  mur- 
dered the  de  Witts,  and  got  the  powers  revested  in  the  Stadtholder. 
Afterwards  another  Prince  had  power  to  excite  insurrections  &  to^ 
make  the  Stadtholdership  hereditary.  And  the  present  Stadth'H'  is 
ready  to  wade  thro  a  bloody  civil  war  to  the  establishment  of  a  mon- 
archy. Col.  Mason  had  mentioned  the  circumstance  of  appointing  of- 
ficers. He  knew  how  that  point  would  be  managed.  No  new  appoint- 
ment would  be  suffered  as  heretofore  in  Pens?  unless  it  be  referred  to 
the  Executive ;  so  that  all  profitable  ofSces  will  be  at  his  disposal.  The 
first  man  put  at  the  helm  will  be  a  good  one.  No  body  Imows  what 
sort  may  come  afterwards.  The  Executive  will  be  always  increasing 
here,  as  elsewhere,  till  it  ends  in  a  Monarchy 

On  the  question  for  striking  out  so  as  to  give  *  Executive  an  abso- 
lute negative— Mass*!  no.  Con^  na  N.  T.  no.  Pf  no.  Dl.  no.  Ml  no. 
V!  no.   N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  no.   Georg?  no.» 

W  BuTLBB  moved  that  the  ResoL"  be  altered  so  as  to  read—"  Be- 
solved  that  the  National  Executive  have  a  power  to  suspend  any 
Legislative  act  for  the  term  of  ." 

Doctr  Fbanklin  seconds  the  motion. 

Mt  Gerbt  observed  that  a  *  power  of  suspending  mig^t  do  all  the 
mischief  dreaded  from  the  negative  of  useful  laws;  without  answer- 
ing the  salutary  purpose  of  checking  unjust  or  unwise  ones. 

On '  question  "  for  giving  this  suspending  power  "  all  the  States, 
to  wit  Mass*I  Con!  N.  Y.  Pt  Del.  Mary^  Virgt  N.  C.  S.  C.  Georgia, 
were  No. 

On  a  question  for  enabling  two  thirds  of  each  branch  of  the 
Legislature  to  overrule  the  revisionary  ■  check:  it  passed  in  the  affirma- 


*  The  word  "  to  "  is  omitted  in  the  tranacript. 

»  The  word  "  the  "  ii  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 

*  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads  "  Haaaaehusetts,  Conneeticnt,  New  York, 
PaimsTlvania,  Delaware,  Idaiyland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  no^lO." 

*  The  word  "  the  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  a." 

■  In  the  transcript  the  word  "  prorisionary  "  was  erroneously  used  in  place 
of  "revisionary." 


56   DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

tive  sub  silentio;  and  was  inserted  in  the  blank  of  W  Gerry's  motion. 
On  the  question  on  MT  Gerry's  motion  which  gave  the  Executive 
alone  without  the  Judiciary  the  revisionary  controul  on  the  laws  unless 
overruled  by  %  of  each  branch ;  Mass'1  ay.  Con?  no.  N.  Y.  ay.  Pt 
ay.    Del.  ay.    Mary?  no.    V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.> 

It  was  moved  by  M'.  Wilson  2*:*  by  W  Madison— that  the  follow- 
ing amendment  be  made  to  the  last  resolution— af+er  the  words 
"  National  Ex."  to  add  "  &  a  convenient  number  ot  the  National 
Judiciary." 

An  objection  of  order  being  taken  by  5^  Hamilton  to  the  intro- 
duction of  the  last  amendment  at  this  time,  notice  was  given  by  Mt 
W.  &  M:  M.— that  the  same  w^  be  moved  tomorrow,— whereupon 
Wednesday  (the  day  after)'  was  assigned  to  reconsider  the  amend- 
ment of  Mr  Gerry. 

It  was  then  moved  &  2*?"  to  proceed  to  the  consideration  of  tha 
9*^  resolution  submitted  by  Mr  Randolph— when  on  motion  to  agree 
to  the  first  clause  namely  "  Resolved  that  a  National  Judiciary  be 
established  "  •    It  passed  in  the  affirmative  nem.  con. 

It  was  then  moved  &  2*?"  to  add  these  words  to  the  first  clause 
of  the  ninth  resolution  namely—"  to  consist  of  one  supreme  tribunal, 
and  of  one  or  more  inferior  tribuna's,"  which  passed  in  the 
affirmative-  • 

The  Comm^  then  rose  and  the  House 
Adjourned. 


Teusdat  June  5.   In  Committee  of  the  whous. 

Governor  Livingston  from  *  New  Jersey,  took  his  seat. 

The  words,  "  one  or  more  "  were  struck  out  before  "  inferior 
tribunals  "  as  an  amendment  to  the  last  clause  of  Resol?  9?"°  The 
Clause—"  that  the  National  Judiciary  be  chosen  by  the  National 
Legislature,"  being  under  consideration. 

JP.  Wilson  opposed  the  appointm*.  of  Judges  by  the  National 
Legisl:  Experience  shewed  the  impropriety  of  sach  appointm'!  by 
numerous  bodies.     Intrigue,  partiality,  and  concealment  were  the 


•  In  the  transcript  this  vote  reads:  "  MassachuHetts,  New  York,  Pernsyl- 
vania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8; 
Connecticut,  Maryland,  no — 2." 

•The  phrase  "  (the  day  after)  "  ia  crossed  out  in  the  transcript 
•The   phrase   "Resolved   that   a    National    Judiciary   be   esUblished      ta 
italicized  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  of  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  from." 

•  The  phrase  "  the  ninth  Resolution  "  is  used  in  the  transcript  in  place  of 
"  Resol"  9«i> " 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  5,  1787  57 

necessary  consequences.  A  principal  reason  for  unity  in  the  Execu- 
tive was  that  oflBcers  might  be  appointed  by  a  single,  responsible 
person. 

Mr  RuTLiDOE  was  by  no  means  disposed  to  grant  so  great  a  power 
to  any  single  person.  The  people  will  think  we  are  leaning  too  much 
towards  Monarchy.  He  was  against  establishing  any  national  tri- 
bunal except  a  single  supreme  one.  The  State  tribunals  are  most 
proper  to  decide  in  all  cases  in  the  first  instance. 

Docf  Franklin  observed  that  two  modes  of  chusing  the  Judges 
had  been  mentioned,  to  wit,  by  the  Legislature  and  by  the  Executive. 
He  wished  such  other  modes  to  be  suggested  as  might  occur  to  other 
gentlemen;  it  being  a  point  af  great  moment.  He  would  mention 
one  which  he  had  understood  was  practiced  in  Scotland.  He  then 
in  a  brief  and  entertaining  manner  related  a  Scotch  mode,  in  which 
the  nomination  proceeded  from  the  Lawyers,  who  always  selected  the 
ablest  of  the  profession  in  order  to  get  rid  of  him,  and  share  his 
practice  among  themselves.  It  was  here  he  said  the  interest  of  the 
electors  to  make  the  best  choice,  which  shoold  always  be  made  the 
case  if  possible. 

Mr.  Madison  disliked  the  election  of  the  Judges  by  the  Le^s- 
lature  or  any  numerous  body.  Besides,  the  danger  of  intrigue  and 
partiality,  many  of  the  members  were  not  judges  of  the  requisite 
qualifications.  The  Legislative  talents  which  were  very  different  from 
those  of  a  Judge,  commonly  recommended  men  to  the  favor  of  Legis- 
lative Assemblies.  It  was  known  too  that  the  accidental  circumstances 
of  presence  and  absence,  of  being  a  member  or  not  a  member,  had 
a  very  undue  influence  on  the  appointment.  On  the  other  hand  he 
was  not  satisfied  with  referring  the  appointment  to  the  Executive. 
He  rather  inclined  to  give  it  to  the  Senatorial  branch,  as  numerous 
eno'  to  be  confided  in — as  not  so  numerous  as  to  be  governed  by  the 
motives  of  the  other  branch;  and  as  being  sufficiently  stable  and 
independent  to  follow  their  deliberate  judgments.  He  hinted  this 
only  and  moved  that  the  appointment  by  the  Legislature  might  be 
struck  out,  &  a  blank  left  to  be  hereafter  filled  on  maturer  reflection. 
Mr  Wilson  seconds  it.  On  the  question  for  striking  out.  Mass*!  ay. 
Con*  no.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pen*  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay.  V!  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.* 

Mt  Wilson  gave  notice  that  he  should  at  a  future  day  move  for 
a  reconsideration  of  that  clause  which  respects  "  inferior  tribunals." 


In  the  tr«ngsript  the  vote  re»d»:  "  Maigachueetts,  New  York,  New  Jerspy, 
PeiUMylTania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Jio,  Gi-orgia,  aye— 9;  Connecticut,  South  Carolina,— 2." 


58      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

W.  PiNKNEY  gave  notice  that  when  the  clause  respecting  the 
appointment  of  the  Judiciary  should  again  come  before  the  Com- 
mittee he  should  move  to  restore  the  "  appointment  by  the  national 
Legislature." 

The  following  clauMS  of  Resol:  9.*  were  agreed  to  vus  "  to  hold 
their  offices  during  good  behaviour,  and  to  receive  punctually  at 
stated  times,  a  fixed  compensation  for  their  services,  in  which  no 
increase  or  diminution  shall  be  made  so  as  to  aflfect  the  persons 
actually  in  office  at  the  time  of  such  increase  or  diminution." 

The  remaining  clause  of  Resolution  9.'  was  posponed. 

Resolution  10  >  was  agreed  to— viz— that  provision  ought  to  be 
made  for  the  admission  of  States  lawfully  arising  within  the  limits  of 
the  U.  States,  whether  from  a  voluntary  junction  of  Government  & 
territory,  or  otherwise,  with  the  consent  of  a  number  of  voices  in 
the  National  Legislature  leas  than  the  whole. 

The  11.  propos:  *  "  for  guarantying  to  States  BepvbUcan  Gov?  & 
territory  &c.,  being  read.  Ml  Patteb80N  wished  the  point  of  rep- 
resentation could  be  decided  before  this  clause  should  be  considered, 
and  moved  to  postpone  it:  which  was  not  opposed,  and  agreed  to: 
Connecticut  &  S.  Carolina  only  voting  ag?  it 

Propos.  12"  "  for  conimuing  Con^,  tUl  a  gwm  day  and  for  ful- 
filling their  engagements,"  produced  no  debate. 

On  the  question,  Mass.  ay.  Con?  Ho.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.*  ay.  P? 
ay.    Del.no.   Ml  ay.    V!  ay.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.   Q.sy. 

Propos:  13.*  "  that  provision  oug\t  to  he  made  for  liereafter 
amending  tlie  system  now  to  be  established,  viithout  requiring  the 
assent  of  the  Natl  Legislature,"  being  taken  up, 

M'.  PiNKNEY  doubted  the  propriety  or  necessity  of  it 

Mt  Gbbbt  favored  it  The  novelty  ft  difficulty  of  the  experiment 
requires  periodical  revision.  The  prospect  of  such  a  revision  would 
also  give  intermediate  stability  to  the  Gov^  Nothing  had  yet  hap- 
pened in  the  States  where  this  provision  existed  to  prove  its  im- 
propriety.— The  proposition  was  postponed  for  further  consideration : 

•  New  Jersey  omitted  in  the  printed  Jonmal. 


>Thp    transcript    uses   the    piirase   "tlie   ninth    Resolution"    in   place   of 
"  Reaol:  !i,"  and  italieizos  the  rpBolution. 

•  The  transcript  here  uses  the  phrase  "  the  ninth  Resolution." 

•  The  phrase  "  The  tenth  Resolution  "  is  here  used  in  the  transcript. 
•In  place  of  the   words   "Tlie   11.  propos:"  the  transcript  reads: 

eleventh  Resolution."  „      ,     .      „ 

•The  transcript  chnnps  "Propos.  12"  to  "The  twelfth  Resolution. 

•  The  transcript  changes  "  Propos:  IS  "  to  res4  as  follows:  "  The  thirteenth 
Resolution,  to  the  effect." 


'The 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  5,  1787 


59 


the  votes  being,  Maa:  Con.  N.  Y.  Pf  Del.  Ma.  N.  C— ay  Virg^  S.  C. 
Geo:  no 

Propos.  14.»  "  requiring  oaik  from  the  State  officvre  to  support 
National  CfovV  was  postponed  after  a  short  uninteresting  conversa- 
tion: the  votes,  Con.  N.  Jersegr.  W  Virg:  8.  C.  Geo.  ay  N.  Y.  P? 
Del.  N,  C. no  Massachusetts divided. 

Propos.  15*  for  "  recommending  Conventions  under  appointment 
of  the  people  to  ratify  the  new  Constitution  "  &c.  being  taken  up. 

Mt  Shabman  thought  such  a  popular  ratification  unnecessary :  the 
articles  of  Confederation  providing  for  changes  and  alterations  with 
the  assent  of  Congf  and  ratification  of  State  Legislatures. 

W.  Madison  thought  this  provision  essential.  The  articles  of 
Confed?  themselves  were  defective  in  this  respect,  resting  in  many 
of  the  States  on  the  Legislative  sanction  only.  Hence  in  conflicts 
between  acts  of  the  States,  and  of  Cong!  especially  where  the  former 
are  of  posterior  date,  and  the  decision  is  to  be  made  by  State  tri- 
bunals, an  uncertainty  most  necessaily  prevail,  or  rather  perhaps 
a  certain  decision  in  favor  of  the  State  authority.  He  suggested 
also  that  as  far  as  the  articles  of  Union  were  to  be  considered  as 
a  Treaty  only  of  a  particular  sort,  among  the  Governments  of  Inde- 
pendent States,  the  doctrine  might  be  set  up  that  a  breach  of  any 
one  article,  by  any  of  the  parties,  absolved  the  other  parties  from 
the  whole  obligation.  For  these  reasons  as  well  as  others  he  thought 
it  indispensable  that  the  new  Constitution  should  be  ratified  in  the 
most  unexceptionable  form,  and  by  the  supreme  authority  of  the 
people  themselves. 

M!  Gebbt  observed  that  in  the  Eastern  States  the  Confed?  had 
been  sanctioned  by  the  people  themselves.  He  seemed  afraid  of 
referring  the  new  system  to  them.  The  people  in  that  quarter  have 
at  this  time  the  wildest  ideas  of  Government  in  the  world.  They 
were  for  abolishing  the  Senate  in  Mass^  and  giving  all  the  other 
powers  of  Govt  to  the  other  branch  of  the  Legislature. 

MT  Kino  supposed  that  the  last  article  of  y«  Confed?  rendered 
the  legislature  competent  to  the  ratification.  The  people  of  the 
Southern  States  where  the  federal  articles  had  been  ratified  by  the 
Legislatures  only,  had  since  impliedly  given  their  sanction  to  it. 
He  thought  notwithstanding  that  there  might  be  policy  in  varying 
the  mode.  A  Convention  being  a  single  house,  the  adoption  may 
more  easily  be  carried  thro'  it,  than  thro'  the  Legislatures  where 
there  are  several  branches.     The  Legislatures  also  being  to  lose 

•  ^e  transcript  chants  "  Propo*.  14  "  to  "  The  fourteenth  ReKlation." 
The  transcript  changes  "  Propos.  16  "  to  "  The  fifteenth  Seaolution." 


60   DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  COXVENTION  OF  1787 

power,  will  be  most  likely  to  raise  objections.  The  people  having 
already  parted  with  the  necessarj-  powers  it  is  immaterial  to  them, 
by  which  Government  they  are  posaessed,  provided  they  be  well 

employed. 

MT  Wilson  took  thia  occasion  to  lead  the  Committee  by  a  train 
of  observations  to  the  idea  of  not  suflfering  a  disposition  in  the 
plurality  of  States  to  confederate  anew  on  better  principles,  to  be 
defeated  by  the  inconsiderate  or  selfish  opposition  of  a  few  States. 
He  hoped  the  provision  for  ratifying  would  be  put  on  such  a  footing 
as  to  admit  of  such  a  partial  union,  with  a  door  open  for  the  acces- 
sion of  the  rest.* 

W  PiNKNmr  hoped  that  in  case  the  experiment  should  not  onani- 
mously  take  place,  nine  States  might  be  authorized  to  unite  under 
the  same  Govern.' 

The  propos.  15.*  was  postponed  ncm.  cont 

SU  PiNKNET  &  Mt  RuTLiDOB  moved  that  tomorrow  be  assigned 
to  reconsider  that  clause  of  Propos.  4 : "  which  respects  the  election  of 
the  first  branch  of  the  National  Legislature— which  passed  in  ♦  affirma- 
tive: Con:  N.Y.  P?  Del:  M*  V»— ay— 6     Mas.  N.J.  N.C.  S.C. 

Geo.  no.  5. 

MI  RuTLHWE  hav?  obtained  a  rule  for  reconsideration  of  the 
clause  for  establishing  inferior  tribunals  under  the  national  authority, 
now  moved  that  that  part  of  the  clause  in  propos.  9.'  should  be  ex- 
punged :  arguing  that  the  State  Tribunals  might  and  ought  to  be  left 
in  all  cases  to  decide  in  the  first  instance  the  right  of  appeal  to  the 
supreme  national  tribunal  being  sufficient  to  secure  the  national 
rights  &  uniformity  of  Judgm*?:  that  it  was  making  an  unnecessary 
encroachment  on  the  jurisdiction  of  the  States  and  creating  unneces- 
sary obstacles  to  their  adoption  of  the  new  system.— Mt  Sherman 
2^  the  motion. 

Mr  Madison  observed  that  unless  inferior  tribunals  were  dis- 
persed throughout  the  Republic  with  final  jurisdiction  in  many  cases, 
appeals  would  be  multiplied  to  a  most  oppressive  degree;  that  be- 
sides, an  appeal  would  not  in  many  cases  be  p  remedy.  What  was 
to  be  done  after  improper  Verdicts  in  State  tribunals  obtained  uiider 

•  The  note  in  brackets  to  be  transferred  to  bottom  margin." 
[This  hint  was  probably  moant  in  terrorem  to  the  smaller  States  of  N. 
Jersey  &.  Delaware.    Nothing  was  said  in  reply  to  it.] 


•  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  the  t-f  nacript. 

•The  transcript  changes  "The  propos.   i        to  "The  fifteenth  Resolution." 

•  The  transcript  changes  "  Propos.  4  "  to  "  the  fourth  Resolution." 
•The  word  "the"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•The  transcript  changes  "propoe.  9"  to  "the  ninth  Rusolution." 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  5,  1787  61 

the  biasMd  directions  of  a  dependent  Judge,  or  the  local  prejudicea 
of  an  undirected  juryt  To  remand  the  cauae  for  a  new  trial  would 
answer  no  purpose.  To  order  a  new  trial  at  the  Supreme  bar  would 
oblige  the  parties  to  bring  up  their  witnesses,  the'  ever  so  distant 
from  the  seat  of  the  Court.  An  eflfective  Judiciary  establishment 
commensurate  to  the  legislative  authority,  waa  essential.  A  Govern- 
ment without  a  proper  Executive  &  Judiciary  would  be  the  mere 
trunk  of  a  body,  without  arms  or  legs  to  act  or  move. 

MI  Wilson  opposed  the  motion  on  like  grounds,  he  said  the 
admiralty  jurisdiction  ought  to  be  given  whoUy  to  the  national  Gov- 
ernment, as  it  related  to  cases  not  within  the  jurisdiction  of  par- 
ticular  states,  &  to  a  scene  in  which  controTeraiet  with  foreigners 
would  be  most  likely  to  happen. 

MI  Shebman  was  in  favor  of  the  motion.  He  dwelt  chiefly  on  the 
■apposed  expensivenws  of  having  a  new  set  of  Courts,  when  the 
existing  State  Courts  would  answer  the  same  purpose. 

Mr  Dickinson  contended  strongly  that  if  there  was  to  be  a  National 
Legislature,  there  ought  to  be  a  national  Judiciary,  and  that  the 
former  ought  to  have  authority  to  institute  the  latter. 

On  the  question  for  Ml  Rutlidge's  motion  to  strike  out  "  inferior 
tribunals  "* 

Mass**  divided.  Cont  ay.  N.  T.  div^  N.  J.  ay.  P*  no.  Del.  no 
M!  no.    Vf  no.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

W.  Wilson  &  Mr  Madison  then  moved,  in  purroance  of  the  idea 
expressed  above  by  W  Dickinson,  to  add  to  Besol:  9.*  the  words 
following  "  that  the  National  Legislature  be  empowered  to  institute 
inferior  tribunals."  They  observed  that  there  was  a  distinction  be- 
tween  establishing  such  tribunals  absolutely,  and  giving  a  discretion 
to  the  Legislature  to  establish  or  not  establish  them.  They  repeated 
the  necessity  of  some  snch  provision. 

MT  BcTLiB.  The  people  will  not  bear  such  innovations.  The 
States  will  revolt  at  such  encroachments.  Supposing  such  an  estab- 
lishment to  be  useful,  we  must  not  venture  on  it.  We  must  follow 
the  example  of  Solon  who  gave  the  Athenians  not  the  best  Gov*,  he 
could  devise ;  but  the  best  they  wf  receive. 

HP  Kino  remarked  as  to  the  comparative  expenee  that  the  estab- 


1 7'"*?'"?'*  "  '*  P^T*  '"  *•"*  afflrmatWe  "  is  here  Inierted  in  the  twiiicript. 
vr  _^^I«  tne.tran'cript  the  rote  reads:  "  Comiectlciit,  New  York.  New  Jerser 

"rfi?iHii»  ^''^'"•'  '"^'  M.iMchuMtU.  divided."  New  York  which  was 
„.?i.w  -  '•  e"oneously  placed  aaioiig  the  "aye."  in  copying,  although  the 
number  wae  correctly  (riven  at  "  6."  ei"t>  uuiuuiiu  ■.w 

'  The  trauicript  change*  "  Reiol:  »"  to  "the  ninth  ReeolutiM." 


62      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 
liAment  of  inferior  tribunal,  w^  cort  infinitely  \tm  than  the  appeaU 
that  would  be  prevented  by  them.  .  ,„  „ 

On  this  quertion  aa  moved  by  Mr  W.  ft  M!  M. 

MaTay    d  no.    N.  Y.  div-    N.  J.-  ay.    K  ay.    Del.  ay.    W 
»    V»  a.T    N  C.  ay.   8.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay. 
"tJ;  anmuttee  then  ro-  ft  the  Houae  adjourned  to  11  OC 

torn'* 


WIDNEBDAT  JUNE  BT"     IS  COMMITWE  OF  THI  WHOLl. 

MT  P.K«KK  according  to  previous  notice  ft  rule  obtained,  moved 
'.  that  the  flrrt  branch  of  the  national  Legislature  be  elected  by  ^e 
State  Legislature.,  and  not  by  the  people."  ^«°°f  "^mg  tha^^  the 
people  were  le«  fit  Judge,  in  .uch  a  caae,  and  that  »»>«  Leg«U^u«. 
iould  be  leM  likely  to  promote  the  adoption  of  the  new  Government, 
if  they  were  to  be  excluded  from  all  riiare  m  it 

MT  BuTUDOT  2*r*  the  motion.  .   ,  ^.        t-  t««»i.«^ 

MtGEHRT.  Much  depend,  on  the  mode  of  election.  J"  E'^bJ^^' 
the  people  wiU  probably  lo«  their  liber^  from  the  «n-^e«  of  ^e 
proi^on  having  a  right  of  .uffrage.  Our  '»'^"  "."^ '"^^^ 
oDDorite  extreme:  hence  in  Ma«i*.  the  worrt  men  get  into  the  Leg* 
Utu«  Several  member,  of  that  Body  had  lately  been  convicted 
?f  iSam^rde..    Men  of  indigence,  ignorance  ft  l««°e«^  «P"« 

no  Tail*  however  dirty  to  carry  their  VO^^^^^^Zl^Z 
roperirto  the  artifice.  practi«d.    He  wa.  not  d-powd  to  run  kito 
Xml    He  wa.  a.  much  principled  as  ever  agf  anrtocracy  and 
SrS.    ll  wa.  neces^ry  on  the  one  hand  that  the  people  should 
ap^^t  one  b«mch  of  the  Gov',  in  order  to  i-pi"  the-  ^th  the 
nec^««ry  confidence.    But  he  wirfied  the  election  on  the  other  o  be  w 
modified  a.  to  secure  more  effectually  a  3U.t  preference  of  ment    Hi. 
Sea  wa.  that  the  people  Aould  nominate  certain  perscins  in  certam  d* 
trSs  out  of  whoVthe  State  Legislatures  «l^l™f  k  \'t ''TeXt 
M'  Wn^K.    He  wished  for  vigor  in  the  Gov«.,  but  he  wuhed  that 
vigorous  authority  to  flow  immediately  from  the  legitimate  «mrce  o 
all  authority.    The  Gov',  ought  to  possess  not  only  IV  the  force,  but 
SI  the  J   d  or  sense  of  the  people  at  large     The  Legislature  ought 
fo  bl  the  most  exact  transcript  of  ^e -bole  Soo  ety.    Ilep««^^^^^^^^^ 

ia  made  necessary  only  becau«J  it  is  >°»P°»'^'^5' J^*"  P.^^!!"  fw* 
"oUectively.     The  opposition  wm  to  be  expected  he  said  from  the 

•  In  the  printed  Journal  N.  Jewey— no. 

•  The  transcript  omits  the  phra«*  "  to  11  OC  tow»  " 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JUNE  6,  1787  68 

OovemmtnU,  not  from  the  Citiiena  of  tl«  Sutea.  The  latter  had 
part^  aa  waa  o'^aerved  [by  W  King]  with  aU  the  neceatary  poweraj* 
and  it  waa  im»jaterial  to  them,  by  whom  they  were  exerciied,  if  well 
exerciaed.  The  State  offlcera  were  to  be  the  loaen  of  power.  The 
people  he  rappoaed  would  be  rather  more  atUched  to  the  national 
Gov?  than  to  the  State  Gov?  aa  being  more  important  in  itself,  and 
more  flattering  to  their  pride.  There  ia  no  danger  of  improper  elec- 
tioaa  if  made  by  large  diatricta.  Bad  elections  proceed  from  the 
■uallneaa  of  the  diatricta  which  give  an  opportunity  to  bad  men  to 
intrigae  themaelvea  into  ofBce. 

HP  Shxrhak.  If  it  were  in  view  to  aboliah  the  State  Gov^  the 
electiona  ought  to  be  by  the  people.  If  the  State  Gov?  are  to  be 
continued,  it  ia  neceaaary  in  order  to  preaerve  harmony  between  the 
National  &  State  Gov?  that  the  electiona  to  'le  former  ah<  be  made 
by  the  latter.  The  right  of  participating  in  the  National  Gov?  would 
be  aufflciently  secured  to  the  people  by  their  election  of  the  State 
Legislaturea.  The  objecto  of  the  Union,  he  thought  were  few. 
l.»  defence  agf  foreign  danger.  2 »  ag^  internal  disputes  ft  a  resort 
to  force.  3.«  Treatiea  with  foreign  nations.  4»  regulating  foreign 
commerce,  &  drawing  revenue  from  it.  These  ft  perhapa  a  few  lesser 
objects  alone  rendered  »  Ckmfederation  of  the  States  necessary.  All 
other  matters  civil  ft  criminal  would  be  much  better  in  the  hands 
of  the  States.  The  people  are  more  happy  in  small  than*  large 
State*.  Statea  may  indeed  be  too  small  aa  Bhode  laland,  ft  thereby 
be  too  subject  to  faction.  Some  others  were  perhaps  too  large,  the 
powers  of  Gov*  not  being  able  to  pervade  them.  He  waa  for  giving 
the  General  Gov?  power  to  legialate  and  exeento  within  a  defined 
province. 

Cou  Mason.  Under  the  exiating  Confederacy,  Congf  reprwent 
the  8tate$*  not  the  people  of  the  Statea:  their  acta  operate  on  the 
Statet.  not  on  the  individuala.*  The  caae  will  be  changed  in  the  new 
plan  of  Gov*  The  people  will  be  repreaented;  they  ought  therefore 
to  choose  the  Representatives.  The  requisites  in  actual  representa- 
tion are  that  the  Rep?  ahould  sympathize  Triih  their  conatituenta;  atii 
think  as  they  think,  ft  feel  aa  they  feel;  and  that  for  these  purposes 
shl  even  be  residenta  among  them.  Much  he  si  had  been  alledged  ag? 
democratic  elections.     He  admitted  that  much  might  be  said;  but 


and 


'  The  phriMe  "  with  M  the 

•  The  flgurei  "  1,"  "  2,"  "  3 
etc.  in  the  tranicript. 

'  !?•  ""'^  "  in  "  ii  here  inierted  in  the  truueript. 

•  The  word  "  and  "  ie  here  interted  in  the  trueeript 
■The  tnuiecript  italicixea  the  word  " iadiTiduals.*^ 


17  powert"  U  italieind  in  the  tmnicrlpt. 
"4"  sre  changed  to  "lUrst,"  "•econdly," 


^' 


64      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

it  WM  to  be  coniidered  that  no  Gov',  wm  free  from  imperfection.  * 
evili-  and  that  improper  election  in  many  inatancea,  were  in»eparable 
from'  Republican  Gov?  But  compare  thew  with  the  advantage  of 
thi.  Form  in  favor  of  the  right,  of  the  people,  in  favor  of  human 
nature.  He  wa.  perauaded  there  waa  a  better  chance  for  proper 
election,  bv  the  people,  if  divided  into  large  dirtrict.  than  by  the 
SUte  Legiriat«r«i.  Paper  money  had  been  i«.ued  by  the  latter  when 
the  former  were  agaim.t  it.  Was  it  to  be  .uppowd  that  the  SUte 
Legi.lature.  then  w<!  not  .end  to  the  Nat'  legialature  patron,  of  .uch 
projects,  if  the  choice  depended  on  them.  v     *  i      ♦  «• 

M'.  Madison  coMidered  an  election  of  one  branch  at  leaat  of 
the  LegUlature  by  the  people  immediately,  a.  a  l^l*"  P''""?'*  ^ 
free  Gov«  and  that  thia  mode  under  proper  regulation,  had  the  addi- 
tional advantage  of  M^curing  better  reprewntative.,  aa  well  a*  of 
•voiding  too  great  an  agency  of  the  State  Government,  in  the  Gen- 
eral one— He  differed  from  the  member   from  Connecticut    [M 
Sharman]  in  thinking  the  objecta  mentioned  to  be  all  the  principa 
one.  that  required  a  National  Gov'.    Tho«  were  certainly  important 
and  neceawry  object.;  but  he  combined  with  them  the  °ece.8ijr  of 
providing  more  effectually  for  the  Mcurity  of  private  right.,  and  the 
Steady  diapenwition  of  Juatice.    Interference,  with  thew  were  evila 
which  had  more  perhaps  than  any  thing  elae,  produced  thi.  conven- 
tion     Was  it  to  be  .uppo«>d  that  republican  liberty  could  long  exiat 
under  the  abuaea  of  it  practiwd  in  novae  of  the  States.    The  gentle- 
man [W  Sharman]  had  admitted  that  in  a  very  amaU  State,  faction 
ft  oppression  w^  prevail.    It  was  to  be  inferred  then  that  whe    «r 
theM  prevailed  the  State  was  too  amall.    Had  they  not  prevailed  in 
the  largest  a.  weU  as  the  smaUest  tho'  lew  than  in  the  smallest;  and 
were  we  not  thence  admonished  to  enlarge  the  sphere  as  far  aa  the 
nature  of  the  Gov*  would  admit    This  was  the  only  defence  ag^  the 
inconveniences  of  democracy  consirtent  with  the  democratic  fonn  of 
Gov*    All  civiliKd  Societies  would  be  divided  into  different  Secta, 
Faction..  &  interests,  as  they  happened  to  conmst  of  rich  &  poor, 
debtors  &  creditors,  the  landed,  the  manufacturing,  the  commercial 
interests,  the  inhabitants  of  this  dlrtrict  or  that  district,  the  followers 
of  this  political  leader  or  that  political  leader,  the  disciple,  of  this 
religious  Sect  or  that  religion.  Sect.    In  all  cases  where  a  majority 
are  united  by  a  common  intereirt  or  passion,  the  rights  of  the  minority 
are  in  danger.     What  motives  are  to  restrain  them!     A  prudent 
regard  to  the  maxim  that  honesty  is  the  best  poUcy  is  found  by 
experience  to  be  as  little  regarded  by  bodies  of  men  as  by  individuals. 
Sespect  for  character  is  always  diminished  in  proportion  to  the  num- 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JUNE  6,  1787  66 

bw  UDonff  whom  the  blame  or  pniiM  ia  to  be  divided.    Coiueienee, 
the  only  remaining  tie,  it  known  to  be  inadequate  in  individual!  t 
In  large  numben,  little  ia  to  be  expected  from  it.    Beeidei,  Religion 
itielf  may  become  a  motive    to    peraecution    A    oppreeaion  — Theee 
obeervatioM  are  verified  by  the  Hiatoriea  of  every  Country  antient 
*  modem.     In  Greece  ft  Rome  the  rich  ft  poor,  the  creditors  ft 
debtore,  aa  well  aa  the  patricians  ft  plebeians  alternately  oppresaed 
each  other  with  equal  unmercifulneaa.    What  a  source  of  oppreaaion 
waa  the  relation  between  the  parent  cities  of  Rome,  Athens  ft     ,., 
thage,  ft  their  respective  provinces :  the  former  possessing  th."         t  - 
ft  the  latter  being  aufflciently  distinguished  to  be  separai     ob-    t% 
of  itt    Why  was  America  so  justly  apprehensive  of  Par'  .i...fnt«ry 
injustice?    Because  G.  Britain  had  a  separate  interest  i  v  .t  sap. 
posed,  ft  if  her  authority  had  been  admitted,  could  /..    •  jxvMie ' 
that  interest  at  our  expence.    We  have  seen  the  mere    Is       .ioi   ot 
colour  made  in  the  most  enlightened  period  of  time    -  ct«u..  i  ■,! 
the  most  oppressive  dominion  ever  exercised  by  man  0    i  -"sn     'A  „«.t 
has  been  the  source  of  those  unjust  laws  complained  of  '^u.ofl'  our 
selves!    Hu  it  not  been  the  real  or  supposed  interest  ot  thi  n      r 
number!    Debtors  have  defrauded  their  creditors.    The  lani'v-  ' 
terest  has  borne  hard  on  the  mercantile  interest.    The  Hole 
one  species  of  property  have  thrown  a  disproportion  of  taxes  on 
the  holders  of  another  species.    The  lesson  we  are  to  draw  from  the 
whole  18  that  where  a  majority  are  united  by  a  common  sentiment, 
and  have  an  opportunity,  the  rights  of  the  minor  party  become 
insecure.    In  a  Republican  Gov*  the  Majority  if  united  have  always 
an  opportunity.    The  only  remedy  is  to  enlarge  the  sphere,  ft  thereby 
divide  the  community  into  so  great  a  number  of  interests  ft  parties, 
that  in  the  11*  place  a  majority  will  not  be  likely  at  the  same  moment 
to  have  a  common  interest  separate  from  that  of  the  whole  or  of 
the  minority;  and  in  the  2«  place,  that  in  case  they  sh?  have  such 
an  interest,  they  may  not  be '  apt  to  unite  in  the  pursuit  of  it.    It 
was  incumbent  on  us  then  to  try  this  remedy,  and  with  that  view 
to  frame  a  republican  system  on  auch  a  scale  ft  in  such  a  form 
aa  will  contronl  all  the  evils  w*  have  been  experienced. 

m  Dickenson  considered  it  as'  essential  that  one  branch  of  the 
Legislature  sM  be  drawn  immediately  from  the  people;  and  as  ex- 
pedient  that  the  other  ehf  be  chosen  by  the  Legislatures  of  the 
States.  This  combination  of  the  State  Gov't  with  the  national  Gov* 
was  as  politic  as  it  was  unavoidable.     In  the  formation  of  the 


■  ^*  ""'^^ '.',"" '!. ''  *'"*  'n'»rt*d  in  the  transcript. 
The  word     as  "  U  omitted  in  the  tranacript. 


66      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Senate  we  ought  to  c«iy  it  through  «ich  a  refining  proce-  «  wUl 
Mimilate  it  as  near  as  may  be  to  the  House  of  Lorda  in  England. 
He  repeated  his  warm  eulogiums  on  the  Britirii  Conrtitution.  He 
was  for  a  strong  National  Gov?  but  for  leaving  the  States  a  con- 
riderable  agency  in  the  System.  The  objection  ag?  making  the  former 
dependent  on  the  latter  might  be  obviated  by  giving  to  the  Senate 
»n  authority  permanent  &  irrevocable  for  three,  five  or  seven  years. 
Being  thus  independent  they  will  speak'  &  decide  with  becoming 

M' Rbad  Too  much  attachment  is  betrayed  to  the  SUte  Govern* 
We  must  look  beyond  their  continuance.  A  national  Gov?  must  soon 
of  necessity  swallow  all  of  them»  up.  They  wUl  soon  be  reduced 
to  the  mere  oflSce  of  electing  the  National  Senate.  He  was  a?* 
patching  up  the  old  federal  System :  he  hoped  the  idea  w-  be  ^»™<>- 
It  would  be  like  putting  new  cloth  on  an  old  garment.  The  c<m- 
federation  was  founded  on  temporary  principles.  It  cannot  last:  it 
cannot  be  amended.  If  we  do  not  esUbUsh  a  good  GovJ  on  new 
principles,  we  must  either  go  to  ruin,  or  have  the  work  to  do  over 
again.  The  people  at  large  are  wrongly  suspected  of  being  averse 
to  a  Gen?  Gov!    The  aversion  lies  among  interested  men  who  possess 

their  confidence.  .     ,-  u       v 

MI  PiracB  was  for  an  election  by  the  people  as  to  the  If  branch 
ft  by  the  SUtes  as  to  the  2?  branch ;  by  which  means  the  Citizens  of  the 
Stotes  w«  be  represented  both  individuaUy  &  collectively. 

General  Pinknit  wished  to  have  a  good  National  Gov?  &  at 
the  same  time  to  leave  a  considerable  share  of  power  in  the  States. 
An  election  of  either  branch  by  the  people  scattered  as  they  are 
in  many  States,  particularly  in  S.  Carolina  was  totaUy  imprw- 
tioable  He  differed  from  gentlemen  who  thought  that  a  choice  by 
the  people  w^  be  a  better  guard  ag!'  bad  measures,  than  by  the  Legis- 
latures. A  majority  of  the  people  in  S.  Carolina  were  notoriously 
for  paper  money  as  a  legal  tender;  the  Legislature  had  refused  to 
make  it  a  legal  tender.  The  reason  was  that  the  latter  hsd  some 
seiL^e  of  character  and  were  restrained  by  that  consideration.  The 
State  Legislatures  also  he  said  would  be  more  jealous,  &  more  ready 
to  thwart  the  National  Gov',  if  excluded  from  a  participation  in  it. 
The  Idea  of  abolishing  these  Legislatures  w*  never  go  down. 

W  WitsoN,  would  not  have  spoken  again,  but  for  what  had  fallen 
from  SP  Read;  namely,  that  the  idea  of  preserving  the  State  Gov- 
ought  to  be  abandoned.     He  saw  no  incompatibility  between  the 

•The  word  "chook"  ir  substituted  in  the  tranicript  for  ".peak."  , 

•  The  wordB  "  thm  all "  are  .ubatitut«l  in  the  transcript  for     alt  of  than. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNBSDAf,  JUNE  6,  1787  67 

National  &  SUte  Gov?  provided  the  latter  were  restrained  to  certain 
local  purposes;  nor  any  probability  of  their  being  devoured  by  the 
former.  In  all  confederated  Systems  antient  &  modem  the  reverse 
had  happened;  the  Generality  being  destroyed  gradually  by  the 
usurpations  of  the  parts  composing  it. 

On  the  question  for  electing  the  1'.'  branch  by  the  State  Legis- 
latures as  moved  by  M:  Pinkney:  it  was  negatived: 

Mass.  no.  C!  ay.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  ay.  K  no.  Del.  no.  M?  no. 
y.  no.   N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  no.* 

Mr  Wilson  moved  to  reconsider  the  vote  excluding  the  Judiciary 
from  a  share  in  the  revision  of  the  laws,  and  to  add  after  "  National 
Executive  "  the  words  "  with  a  convenient  number  of  the  national 
Judiciary  ";  remarking  the  expediency  of  reinforcing  the  Executive 
with  the  influence  of  that  Department. 

W  Madison  2**  the  motion.  He  observed  that  the  great  difB- 
evlty  in  rendering  the  Executive  competent  to  its  own  defence  arose 
from  the  nature  of  Republican  Gov?  which  could  not  give  to  an 
individual  citizen  that  settled  pre-eminence  in  the  eyes  of  the  rest, 
that  weight  of  property,  that  personal  interest  ag*  betraying  the' 
national  interest,  which  appertain  to  an  hereditary  magistrate.  In 
a  Republic  personal  merit  alone  could  be  the  ground  of  political 
exaltation,  but  it  would  rarely  happen  that  this  merit  would  be  so 
pre-eminent  as  to  produce  universal  acquiescence.  The  Executive 
Magistrate  would  be  envied  ft  assailed  by  disappointed  competitors: 
His  firmness  therefore  w1  need  support.  He  would  not  possess  those 
great  emoluments  from  his  station,  n<Jr  that  permanent  stake  in  the 
public  interect  which  w*  place  him  out  of  the  reach  of  foreign  cor- 
ruption: He  would  stand  in  need  therefore  of  being  controuled 
as  well  as  supported.  An  association  of  the  Judges  in  his  revisionary 
function  w^  both  double  the  advantage  and  diminish  the  danger.  It 
w1  also  enable  the  Judiciary  Department  the  better  to  defend  itself 
ag!*  Legislatives  encroachments.  Two  objections  had  been  made  It 
that  the  Judges  ought  not  to  be  subject  to  the  bias  which  a  partici- 
pation in  the  making  of  laws  might  give  in  the  exposition  of  them. 
2^  that  the  Judiciary  Departm!  ought  to  be  separate  &  distinct  from 
the  other  great  Departments.  The  1?  objection  hsd  some  weight;  but 
it  was  much  diminished  by  reflecting  that  a  small  proportion  of  the 
laws  coming  in  question  before  a  Judge  wf  be  such  wherein  he  had 
been  consulted;  that  a  small  part  of  this  proportion  w^  be  so  am- 


•  In  th*  trmntcript  the  vote  rwda  "  Connecticut,  New  Jereej,  South  Carolina 
aye— 3;  Matmchuaettt,  New  York,  PennijlTaaia.  DeUware,  iUrvltad.  Vininia. 
North  Carolina,  Georgia,  b»— «."  *        ■       •       » 


68      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

biguous  as  to  leave  room  for  his  prepossessions;  and  that  but  a  few 
cases  w-!  probably  arise  in  the  Ufe  of  a  Judge  under  such  ambiguous 
passages.  How  much  good  on  the  other  hand  w?  proceed  from  th« 
perspicuity,  the  conciseness,  and  the  systematic  character  w«^  the 
Code  of  laws  w1  receive  fium  the  Judiciary  Ulents.  As  to  the  2? 
objection,  it  either  had  no  weight,  or  it  applied  with  equal  weight 
to  the  Executive  &  to  the  Judiciary  revision  of  the  laws.  The  maxim 
on  which  the  objection  was  founded  required  a  separation  of  the  Ex- 
ecutive as  well  as  of '  the  Judiciary  from  the  Legislature  &  from  each 
other  There  w*  in  truth  however  be  no  improper  mixture  of  these 
distinct  powers  in  the  present  ca«s.  In  England,  whence  the  manm 
itself  had  been  drawn,  the  Executive  had  an  absolute  negative  on  the 
laws-  and  the  supreme  tiribunal  of  Justice  [the  House  of  Lords] 
form^Ki  one  of  the  other  branches  of  the  Legislature.  In  short  whetiier 
the  object  of  the  revisionary  power  was  to  restrain  the  Legislature 
from  encroaching  on  the  other  co-ordinate  Departments,  or  on  the 
rights  of  the  people  at  large;  or  from  passing  laws  unwise  in  their 
principle,  or  incorrect  in  their  fonn,  the  utiUty  of  annexing  the 
wisdom  and  weight  of  the  Judiciary  to  the  Executive  leemed  m- 

contestable.  „a  w. 

M:  Q«rbt  thought  the  Executive,  whitet  standing  alone  w«  be 
more  impartial  than  when  he  c1  be  covered  by  the  sanction  ft  aeduced 
by  the  sophistry  of  the  Judges.  ,  ,     *v. 

Mr  Kino.  If  the  Unity  of  tiie  Executive  was  preferred  for  the 
sake  of  responsibility,  the  policy  of  it  is  as  applicable  to  the  revision- 
ary  as  to  the  Executive  power. v.    j.  -* 

M5  PiNKNBT  had  been  at  first  in  favor  of  joining  the  heads  oT 
the  principal  departin"!  the  Secretary  at  War,  of  foreign  affain,  ft- 
in  the  council  of  revision.  He  had  however  relinquished  the  idea 
from  a  consideration  tiiat  these  could  be  called  in»  by  the  Executive 
Magistrate  whenever  he  pleased  to  consult  them.  He  was  opposed 
to  an  •  introduction  of  the  Judges  into  the  busme*. 

Col.  Mason  was  for  giving  all  possible  weight  tu  the  revisionary 
institution.  The  Executive  power  ought  to  be  well  secured  ag?  Leg* 
lativo  usurpations  on  it.  The  purse  &  the  sword  ought  never  to 
get  into  the  same  hands  whether  Legislative  or  Executive. 

m  DiCKEWBON.  Secrecy,  vigor  &  despatch  are  not  tiie  pnn- 
cipal  properties  req«  in  the  Executive.  Important  as  these  aw, 
that  of  responsibiUty  is  more  so,  which  can  only  be  preserveo; 


•  The  word  "  of  "  in  omittwl  !n  the  transpript.  ^ 

•  The  word  "  on  "  i«  substituted  In  the  trnnBcript  for     m     ^ 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for     an. 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAY,  JUNE  7.  1787 


69 


by  lear^Rf  it  singly  to  dkchaxge  its  functions.  He  thooght  too  & 
junction  of  the  Judiciary  to  it,  involved  an  improper  mixture  of 
powan. 

M'.  Wilson  remarked,  tuat  the  responsibility  required  belonged 
to  his  Executive  duties.  The  revisionary  duty  was  an  extraneous 
one,  calculated  for  collateral  purposei. 

W  Williamson,  was  for  substituting  a  claoae  requiring  %  for 
every  effective  act  of  the  Legialature,  in  plaee  of  the  revisionary 
provision. 

On  the  question  for  joining  the  Judges  to  the  Executive  in  the 
revisionary  business,  Mass.  no.  Coni  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pt  no. 
Del.  no.    M*  no.    V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

MT  PiNKKR  gave  notice  that  tomorrow  he  should  move  for  the 
reconsideration  of  that  clause  in  the  sixth  Resolution  adopted  by  the 
C'  .nm?  which  vests  a  negative  in  the  National  Legislature  on  the 
Uks  of  the  several  States. 

The  Com',  rose  &  the  House  adj'>  to  11  OC 


Thubsday  JtJNE  T^  1787 ' — In  Committee  op  the  wholbs. 

M^  PiNKNBT  according  to  notice  moved  to  reconsider  the  clause 
respecting  the  negative  on  State  laws,  which  was  agreed  to  and 
tomorrow  for  fixed  *  the  purpose. 

The  Clause  providing  for  y*.  appointment  of  the  2?  branch  of 
the  national  Legislature,  having  lain  blank  since  the  last  vote  on  the 
mode  of  electing  it,  to  wit,  by  the  1?  branch,  Mt  Dickinson  now 
moved  "  that  the  members  of  the  2?  Immeh  ought  to  be  chosen  by 
the  individual  Legislatures." 

W  Shabman  seconded  the  motitm;  observing  that  the  particular 
States  would  thus  become  interested  in  supporting  the  national 
Govemml  and  that  a  due  harmony  between  the  two  Gtovemments 
would  be  maintained.  He  admitted  that  the  two  ought  to  have 
separate  and  distinct  jurisdictions,  but  that  they  ou|^t  to  have  a 
mutual  interest  in  supporting  each  other. 

Mr  PiNKNiT.  If  the  small  States  should  be  allowed  one  Senator 
only,  the  number  will  be  too  great,  there  will  be  80  at  least. 

•In  the  transcTlpt  the  vote  readi:  " Connecttcut.  New  York,  Virifinla, 
aye — S;  Maeeachusette,  New  Jereey,  PennsylTania,  Delaware,  Marylaad,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina.  Georgia,  no — 8." 

•  The  eipreenion  "to  11  OC  "  l«  omitted  in  the  tranicrlpt. 

•  The  year  "  1787  "  i«  omitted  in  the  tranaoript. 

•  The  words  "  for  fixed  "  are  corrected  in  the  tranecript  to  "  fixed  for." 


70      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

M'  Dickenson  had  two  reasons  for  his  motion.  1.^  because  the 
wnse  of  the  States  would  be  better  collected  through  their  Qovem- 
ments;  than  immediately  from  the  people  at  large;  2.^  because  he 
wished  the  Senate  to  consist  of  the  most  distinguished  characters, 
distinguished  for  their  rank  in  life  and  their  weight  of  property, 
and  bearing  as  strong  a  likeness  to  the  British  House  of  Lords  as 
possible;  and  he  thought  such  characters  more  likely  to  be  selected 
by  the  State  Legislatures,  than  in  any  other  mode.  The  greatness 
of  the  number  was  no  objection  with  him.  He  hoped  there  would 
be  80  and  twice  80.  of  them.  If  their  number  should  be  small,  the 
popular  branch  could  not  be  balanced  by  them.  The  legislature  of  a 
numerous  people  ought  to  be  a  numerous  bod>'. 

M^  Williamson,  preferred  a  small  number  of  Senators,  but  wished 
that  each  State  should  have  at  least  one.  He  suggested  25  as  a  con- 
venient number.  The  different  modes  of  representation  in  the  differ- 
ent branches,  will  serve  as  a  mutual  check. 

M'  BcTLEB  was  anxious  to  know  the  ratio  of  representation  be- 
fore he  gave  any  opinion. 

iV  Wilson.  If  we  are  to  establish  a  national  Government,  that 
Government  ought  to  flow  from  the  people  at  large.  If  one  branch 
of  it  should  be  chosen  by  the  Legislatures,  and  the  other  by  the 
people,  the  two  branches  will  rest  on  different  foundations,  and  dis- 
sensions will  naturally  arise  between  them.  He  wished  the  Senate 
to  be  elected  by  the  people  as  well  as  the  other  hrancli,  and  the 
people  might  be  divided  into  proper  districts  for  the  purpose  & '  moved 
to  postpone  the  motion  of  W  Dickenson,  in  order  to  take  up  one 
of  that  import. 

Ml  MoRBis  2*f*  him. 

M'  Read  proposed  "  that  the  Senate  should  be  appointed  by  the 
Executive  Magistrate  out  of  a  proper  number  of  persons  to  be  nomi- 
nated by  the  individual  legislatures."  He  said  he  thought  it  his 
duty,  to  speak  his  mind  frankly.  Gentlemen  he  hoped  would  not 
be  alarmed  at  the  idea.  Nothing  short  of  this  approach  towards  a 
proper  model  of  Government  would  answer  the  purpose,  and  he 
thought  it  best  to  come  directly  to  the  point  at  once. — His  proposi- 
tion was  not  seconded  nor  supported. 

M'  Madison,  if  the  motion  [of  Mr.  Dickenson]  should  be  agreed 
to,  we  must  either  depart  from  the  doctrine  of  proportional  rep- 
resMitation ;  or  admit  into  the  Senate  a  very  large  number  of  mem- 

•  The  flpiree  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  First  "  and  "  secondly  "  In  the 
tranioript. 

'  The  word  "  he  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


■«r"t'^«:?5sag5SSt;- 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JUNE  7,  1787  H 

bew.  The  first  is  inadmissible,  being  evidently  onjnst  The  second 
is  inexpedient.  The  use  of  the  Senate  is  to  consist  in  its  proceeding 
with  more  coolness,  with  more  system,  &  with  more  wisdom,  than 
the  popular  branch.  Enlarge  their  number  and  you  communieate 
to  them  the  vices  which  they  are  meant  to  correct.  He  diflfered  from 
Mr  D.  who  thought  that  the  additional  number  would  give  additional 
weight  to  the  body.  On  the  contrary  it  appeared  to  him  that  their 
weight  would  be  in  an  inverse  ratio  to  their  number.*  The  example 
of  the  Roman  Tribunes  was  applicable.  They  lost  their  influence 
and  power,  in  proportion  as  their  number  was  augmented.  The 
reason  seemed  to  be  obvious:  They  were  appointed  to  take  care 
of  the  popular  interests  &  pretenaions  at  Rome,  because  the  people 
by  reason  of  their  numbers  could  not  act  in  concert; »  were  liable  to 
fall  into  factions  among  themselves,  and  to  become  a  pr^  to  their 
aristocratic  adversaries.  The  more  the  representatives  of  the  people 
therefore  were  multiplied,  the  more  they  partook  of  the  infirmities 
of  their  constituents,  the  more  liable  they  became  to  be  divickd  among 
themselves  either  from  their  own  indiscretions  or  the  artifices  of  the 
opposite  faction,  and  of  course  the  less  capable  of  fulfilLng  their  trvmt. 
When  the  w«ght  of  a  set  of  men  depends  merely  on  their  personal 
characters;  the  greater  the  number  the  greater  the  we^ht  When 
it  depends  on  the  degree  of  political  authority  lodged  in  them  the 
smaller  the  number  the  greater  the  weight.  These  considerations 
might  perhaps  be  combined  in  the  intended  Senate;  but  the  latter 
was  the  material  one. 

M!  Qerbt.  4  modes  of  appointing  the  Senate  have  been  men- 
tioned. l.»  by  the  IV  branch  of  the  National  Legislatnre.  This  would 
create  a  dependence  contraiy  to  the  end  propoaed.  2.'  b^  the 
National  Executive.  This  is  a  stride  towards  monarchy  5hat  few 
will  think  of.  S.-*  by  the  people.  The  people  have  two  great  interests, 
the  landed  interest,  and  the  commercial  including  the  stockholders. 
To  draw  both  branches  from  the  people  will  leave  no  security  to  the 
latter  interest;  the  people  being  chiefly  compaaed  of  the  landed  in- 
terest, and  erroneouriy  supposing,  that  the  other  interests  are  adverse 
to  it.  4 »  by  the  Individual  Legislatures.  The  elections  being  carried 
thro'  this  refinement,  will  be  most  likely  to  provide  some  check  in 
fav«r  of  the  cwnmercial  interest  agf  the  landed;  without  which 


■  The  tnntKript  uses  the  word  "  number  "  in  the  pluni 
'  3?*  """^  "  ■"*•  '  '*  •>«'*  inaerted  in  the  tranacnpt. 

etc..  i?tLt.ri"  "''"  "'"  "^  "'"  '"  '""""^  *°  "^'^'"  "**°^^'" 


T2      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


oppKasioD  will  take  place,  and  no  free  Ch>T*.  can  last  long  where 
that  is  the  case.    He  was  therefore  in  favor  of  this  last. 

M^  Dickenson.*  The  preservation  of  the  State*  in  a  certain 
degree  of  agency  is  indispensable.  It  will  produce  that  collision  be- 
tween the  different  authorities  which  should  be  wished  for  in  order 
to  check  each  other.  To  attempt  to  abolish  the  States  altogether, 
would  degrade  the  Councils  of  our  Country,  would  be  impracticable, 
would  be  roinous.  He  compared  the  proposed  National  System  to 
the  Solar  Syatem,  in  which  the  States  were  the  planeta,  and  ought 
to  be  left  to  move  freely  in  their  proper  orbita.  The  Gentleman 
from  P;  [W  Wilson]  wished  he  said  to  extinguish  these  planets.  If 
the  State  Oovemments  were  excluded  from  all  agency  in  the  national 
one,  and  all  power  drawn  from  the  people  at  large,  the  consequence 
would  be  that  the  national  Qo\*.  would  move  in  the  same  direction  as 
the  State  (Jovf  now  do,  and  would  run  into  all  the  same  mischiefiL 
The  reform  would  only  unite  the  13  small  streams  into  one  great 
cw  T^nt  pursuing  the  same  course  without  any  opposition  whatever. 
Hi  adhered  to  the  opinion  that  the  Senate  ought  to  be  composed  of 
a  large  number,  and  that    leir  influence  from  family  weight  ft  other 

thereby.     He  did  not  admit  that  the 

T  proportion  as  their  n?  was  augmented 

tf  this  institution.    If  the  reasoning  of 

old  prove  that  the  number  of  the  Senate 

a,  the  highest  n?  of  the  Tribunitial  corps. 

t  it  must  be  owned  is  surrounded  with 

^.     bat  we  must  surmount  them.    The  British 

our  m   '1.    W'*  have  no  materials  for  a  similar 


causes  would  be  increasr 
Tribunes  lost  their  weig 
and  gave  a  histories^  r) 
[M'  Madison]  was  g 
ought  to  be  reduced 

M;  Wilson.    Th     ^u^ 
doubts  and  uifficulti 
Qovemm?  cannot  ' 


one.  Our  manr  rg,  our  ,  the  ■>■  'olition  of  entails  and  of  primo- 
geniture, the  w  ole  jeniii;  f  the  i  pie,  are  opposed  to  it.  He  did 
not  see  the  dang  )f  the  S;  ite*  ■  «ii  ^r  devoured  by  the  Nation.'  Gov? 
On  the  contrary,  he  wished  t  <^p  thc-m  from  devouring  the  national 
Gov?  He  was  not  however  lor  extinguishing  these  planets  as  waa 
supposed  by  W  D.— neither  did  he  on  the  other  hand,  believe  that 
they  would  warm  or  enlighten  the  Sun.  Within  their  proper  orbita 
they  must  still  be  suffered  to  act  for  subordinate  purposes  for  which 
their  existence  is  made  essential  by  the  great  extent  of  our  Country. 
He  could  not  comprehend  in  what  manner  the  landed  interest  w4 
be  rendered  less  predominant  in  the  Senate,  by  an  election  through 
the  medium  of  the  Legislatures  than  hy  the  people  themselves.    If 

•  It  will  throw  liphl  on  this  dianisaioii  to  renuuk  that  an  election  by  the 
State  Lcpislaturps  involved  ■  •iirrender  of  the  principle  innifitod  on  by  the  large 
States  A  dreaded  J)y  tlie  small  ones,  namely  that  of  a  proportional  representation 
In  the  Senate.  Such  n  role  w<;  make  the  body  too  numerous,  as  the  smallest 
State  must  elect  one  mcmlwr  .it  k'ast. 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAT,  JUNE  7,  1787  78 

the  Legialaturea,  aa  was  now  complained,  gacrificed  the  commercial 
to  the  landed  interest,  what  reason  was  there  to  expect  such  a  choice 
from  them  as  would  defeat  their  own  views.  He  was  for  an  election 
by  the  people  in  large  districts  which  wf  be  moat  likely  to  obtain 
men  of  intelligence  &  uprightness;  subdividing  the  districts  only 
for  the  accomodation  of  voters. 

M!  Madison  could  as  little  comprehend  in  what  manner  famUy 
weight,  aa  desired  by  Mi  D.  would  be  more  certainly  conveyed  into 
the  Senate  through  elections  by  the  SUte  Legislatures,  than  in  some 
otiier  modes.  The  true  question  was  in  what  mode  the  beet  choice 
w«  be  madet  If  an  election  by  the  people,  or  thro'  any  other  channel 
than  the  State  Legidatnres  promised  as  uncorrupt  ft  impartial  a 
preference  of  merit,  there  could  surely  be  no  necessity  for  an  appoint- 
ment by  those  Legislatures.  Nor  was  it  apparent  that  a  more  useful 
check  would  be  derived  thro'  that  channel  than  from  the  people 
thro'  some  other.  The  great  evils  complained  of  were  that  the  State 
Legislatures  run  into  schemes  of  paper  money  ftc.  whenever  solicited 
by  the  people,  ft  sometimes  without  evep  the  sanction  of  the  people. 
Their  influence  then,  instead  of  checking  a  like  propensity  in  the 
National  Legislature,  may  be  expected  to  promote  it.  Nothing  can 
be  more  contradictory  than  to  say  that  the  Nat'  Legislature  with^  a 
proper  check,  wiU  follow  the  example  of  tiie  State  Legislatures,  &  in 
the  same  breath,  that  the  State  Legislatares  are  the  only  proper  check. 

M'  Sbabu  AN  opposed  elections  by  the  people  in  districts,  as  not 
likely  to  produce  such  fit  men  as  elections  by  the  State  Legislstures. 

Mr  Gebbt  insisted  that  the  commercial  ft  monied  interest  w^  be 
more  secure  in  the  hands  of  the  State  Legislatures,  than  of  the  people 
at  large.  The  former  have  more  sense  of  character,  and  will  be  re- 
strained by  that  from  injustice.  The  people  are  for  paper  money 
when  the  Legialaturea  are  ag?  it.  In  Mass?  the  County  Conventions 
had  declared  a  v?i8h  for  a  depreciating  paper  that  wf  sink  itself. 
Besides,  in  some  States  there  are  two  Branches  in  the  Legislature, 
one  of  which  is  somewhat  aristocratic.  There  w^  therefore  be  so " 
far  a  better  ehanee  of  refinement  in  the  choice.  There  seemed,  he 
thought  t»  be  three  powerful  objections  ag?  elections  by  districts. 
1.'  it  is  impracticable ;  the  people  cannot  be  brou^t  to  one  place  for 
the  purpose;  and  whether  brought  to  the  same  place  or  not,  numberless 
frauds  w^  be  unavoidable.  2.»  omall  States  forming  part  of  the  same 
district  with  a  large  one,  or »  large  part  of  a  large  one,  w^  have  uo 
ehanee  of  gaining  an  appoiniment  for  its  citizens  of  merit.    3  '  a  new 


tl  I 


•  The  word  "  n  '  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


74      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


■ouree  of  diacord  w1  be  opened  between  different  parts  of  the  same 
district. 

M!  PiNKNiT  thoaght  the  2fi  branch  ought  to  be  permanent  &  in- 
dependent, &  that  the  members  of  it  w1  be  rendered  more  so  by 
receiving  their  appointment '  from  the  State  Legislatures.  This  mode 
w<!  avoid  the  rivaLships  &  discontents  incident  to  the  election  by  dis- 
tricts. He  was  for  dividing  the  States  into  three  classes  according 
to  their  respective  sizes,  &  for  allowing  to  the  1!'  class  three  members — 
to  the  2*  two,  &  to  the  3^  one. 

On  the  question  for  postponing  M^  Dickinson '«  motion  referring 
the  appointment  of  the  Senate  to  the  State  Legislatures,  in  order  to 
consider  MH  Wilson's  for  referring  it  to  the  people 

Mass.  no.  Con!  no.  N.  T.  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pt  ay  Del.  no.  W. 
no.    Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no." 

Col.  Mason,  whatever  power  may  be  necessary  for  the  Nat! 
Gov!  a  certain  portion  must  necessarily  be  left  in '  the  States.  It  is 
impossible  for  one  power  to  pervade  the  extreme  parts  of  the  U.  S. 
so  as  to  carry  equal  justice  to  them.  The  State  Legislatures  also 
ought  to  have  some  means  of  defending  themselves  ag!'  encroachments 
of  the  Nat'  Gov^  In  every  other  department  we  have  studiously 
endeavored  to  provide  for  its  self-defence.  Shall  we  leave  the 
States  alone  unprovided  with  the  means  for  this  purpose  T  And  what 
better  means  can  we  provide  than  the  giving  them  some  share  in, 
or  rather  to  make  them  a  constituent  part  of,  the  Nat!  Establishment. 
There  is  danger  on  both  sides  no  doubt;  but  we  have  only  seen  the 
evils  arising  on  the  side  of  the  State  Govf  Those  on  the  other  side 
remain  to  be  displayed.  The  example  of  Cong!  does  not  apply. 
Cong!  had  no  power  to  carry  their  acts  into  execution  as  the  Nat' 
Gov!  will  have. 

On  Mr  Dickinson's  motion  for  an  appointment  of  the  Senate  by 
the  State-Legislatures. 

Mass.  ay.  C!  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  V*.  ay  Del.  ay.  M?  ay.  V?  ay 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

in  Gerrt  gave  notice  that  he  w1  tomorrow  move  for  a  rcconsidera- 


■  Tbe  word  "  appointinent "  ii  uted  in  the  plural  in  the  tranicript. 

'In  the  trantcript  the  vote  reada:  " Penniylvania,  aye — 1;  Blaaaachuiette, 
Connecticut,  New  York,  New  Jeney,  Delaware,  Maiyland,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georiria,  no — 10." 

•  The  Word  "  with  "  ia  subetituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  in." 

•In  the  tranncript  the  vote  reads:  " MaasachuBptta,  Connecticut,  New  York, 
Pennaylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye~10." 


SESSION  OP  PBIDAT,  JUNI  8,  1787  ff 

tion  of  the  mode  of  appointing  the  NrtJ  BzwatiTv  in  order  to  nib- 
•titate  an  appointm*  by  the  State  executives 
The  Committee  roie  ft  The  Hooae  adjt 


Pbibat  June  8T«    In  Comjuttbe  of  th«  Whoub. 

On  a  reconsideration  of  the  dauae  giving  the  Nat'  Legislatnre  a 
negative  on  such  laws  of  the  States  as  might  be  contrary  to  the 
articles  of  Union,  or  Treaties  with  foreign  nations, 

W  PiNKNiY  moved  "  that  the  National  Legislators  sh^  have 
authority  to  negative  all  laws  which  they  sh"!  judge  to  be  improper." 
He  urged  that  such  a  universality  of  the  power  was  indispensably 
necessary  to  render  it  effectual;  that  the  SUtes  must  be  kept  in  due 
subordination  to  the  nation;  that  if  the  States  were  left  to  act  of 
themaahrea  in  any  caae,  it  w<!  be  impossible  to  defend  the  national 
pren^atives,  however  extensive  they  mii^t  be  on  paper:  that  the 
acts  of  Coi-jreas  had  been  defeated  by  this  means;  nor  had  foreign 
treaties  escaped  repeated  violations;  that  this  universal  negative  was 
in  fact  the  comer  stone  of  an  efHcient  national  Gov?;  that  under 
the  British  Gov',  the  negative  of  the  Crown  had  been  found  beneficial, 
and  the  States  are  more  one  nation  now,  than  the  Coloniet  were  then! 
M;  Madison  seconded  the  motion.    He  could  not  but  regard  an 
indefinite  power  to  negative  legislative  acts  of  the  States  as  abso 
lutely  necessary  to  a  perfect  system.    Experience  had  evinced  a  con. 
stant  tendency  in  the  States  to  encroach  on  the  federal  authority; 
to  violate  national  Treaties;  to  infringe  the  rights  &  interests  of  each 
other;  to  oppress  the  weaker  party  within  their  respective  juris- 
dictions.   A  negative  was  the  mildest  expedient  that  could  be  devised 
for  preventing  these  mischiefs.    The  existence  of  such  a  check  would 
prevent  attempts  to  commit  them.     Should  no  such  precaution  be 
engrafted,  the  only  remedy  w^  lie '  in  an  appeal  to  coercion.    Waa 
such  a  remedy  eligible  t  was  it  practicable  T    Could  the  national  re- 
sources, if  exerted  to  the  utmost  enforce  a  national  decree  ag?  Mass? 
ibetted  perhaps  by  several  of  her  neighboural     It  W?  not  be  poa- 
sible.    A  small  proportion  of  the  Community,  in  a  compact  situation, 
acting  on  the  defensive,  and  at  one  of  its  extremities  might  at  any 
time  bid  defiance  to  the  National  authority.    Any  Gov*  for  the  U. 
States  formed  on  the  supposed  practicability  of  using  force  ag?  the 

"  The  word  "  be  "  is  lulwtituted  in  the  trangcript  for  "  lie." 


T8      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

oacoiutitutioaal  proceedings  of  the  SUtea,  w1  prove  as  visionary  A 
fallacious  as  the  (iov*.  of  Congt  The  negative  w1  render  the  use  of 
force  unucceHsary.  The  Btutt'S  i?  ot  Uiemstilves  then  *  pass  uo  opera- 
tivv  act,  any  more  than  one  branch  of  a  Legislature  where  there  are 
two  branches,  can  proceed  without  the  other.  But  in  order  to  give  the 
negative  this  e£Bcacy,  it  must  extend  to  all  cases.  A  discrimination 
w^  only  be  a  fresh  source  of  contention  between  the  two  authorities. 
In  a  word,  to  recur  to  the  illustrations  borrowed  from  the  planetary 
■ysteiu.  This  prerogative  of  the  Oeneral  Govi  ii  the  great  pervading 
principle  that  must  controul  the  centrifugal  tendency  of  the  States; 
which,  without  it,  will  continually  fly  out  of  their  proper  orbita  and 
destroy  the  order  k  harmony  of  the  political  System. 

M^  WuxuHsoN  was  agf*  giving  a  power  that  might  reetrain  the 
States  from  regulating  their  internal  police. 

M^  GEasT  c^  not  see  the  extent  of  such  a  power,  and  was  agf  every 
power  that  was  not  necessary.  He  thought  a  remonstrance  ag?  un- 
reasonable acts  of  the  States  w^  reclaim '  them.  If  it  shl  not  force 
might  be  resorted  to.  He  had  no  objection  to  authorize  a  negative 
to  paper  money  and  similar  measures.  When  the  confederation  was 
depending  before  Congress,  Massachuasetta  was  then  for  inserting  the 
power  of  emitting  paper  money  ami  the  exclusive  powers  of  Con- 
gresa.  He  observed  that  the  propoaed  negative  w1  extend  to  the  regu- 
lations of  the  Militia,  a  matter  on  which  the  existence  of  a*  State 
might  depend.  The  Nat!  Legislature  with  such  a  power  may  enslave 
the  States.  Such  an  idea  as  this  will  never  be  acceded  to.  It  has 
never  been  suggested  or  conceived  among  the  people.  No  speculative 
projector,  and  there  are  eno'  of  that  character  among  us,  in  politics 
as  well  as  in  other  things,  has  in  any  pamphlet  or  newspaper  thrown 
out  the  idea.  The  States  too  have  different  interests  and  are  igno- 
rant of  each  other's  interests.  The  negative  therefore  will  be  abused. 
New  States  too  having  separate  views  from  the  old  States  will  never 
come  into  the  Union.  They  may  even  be  under  some  foreign  influ- 
ence ;  are  they  in  such  case  to  participate  in  the  negative  on  the  will 
of  the  other  States  t 

M^  Shebman  thought  the  cases  in  which  the  negative  ouj^t  to 
be  exercised,  might  be  defined.  He  wished  the  point  might  not  be 
decided  till  a  trial  at  least  sh?  be  made  for  that  purpose 

M;  Wilson  would  not  say  what  modifications  of  the  proposed 
power  might  be  practicable  or  expedient.     But  however  novel  it 

'  The  word  "  then  "  it  nmitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  word  "  reotrain  "  in  auhstitutnl  in  the  transcript  for  "  reclaim." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  a." 


SESSION  OF  PBIDAY,  JUNE  8,  1787  n 

might  appear  the  principle  of  it  when  viewed  with  a  doM  ft  ateady 
eye,  i,  right.    There  in  no  instance  in  which  the  laws  say  that  the 
individual  iho  be  bound  in  one  caM,  *  at  liberty  to  judge  whether 
he  wUl  obey  or  diaobey  in  another.    The  case,  are  parallel.    Abuw. 
of  the  power  over  the  individual  perwn  may  happen  a.  weU  a.  over 
the  individual  States.    Federal  liberty  is  to'  Sutes,  what  civU  lib- 
arty  IS  to  private  individuaht    And  States  ar«  not  more  unwilling  to 
purchase  it,  by  the  necessary  concession  of  their  poliUcal  sovereignty, 
that    the  savage  u  to  purchase  civil  liberty  hy  the  surrender  of  hia  • 
personal  sovereignty,  which  he  enjoys  in  a  Sute  of  nature.    A  deflni. 
tion  of  the  caae.  in  which  the  Negative  ahould  be  exercised,  is  im- 
practicable.     A  discretion  muat  be  left  on  one  side  or  the  othert 
will  It  not  be  moat  safely  lodged  on  the  side  of  the  Nat'  Oov«  t    Among 
the  first  sentiments  ezpreswd  in  the  first  Cong!  one  was  that  Vinrt 
ia  no  more,  that  Maal  is  no*,  that  P?  is  no  more  fte.     We  are 
now  one  nation  of  brethren.    We  must  bury  all  local  interesto  &  dis- 
tinetions.     This  language  continued  for  some  time.     The  tables  at 
len^h  began  to  turn.    No  sooner  were  the  State  Gov?*  formed  than 
their  jealousy  ft  ambition  began  to  display  themselves.     Each  en- 
deavonred  to  mt  a  slice  from  the  common  loaf,  to  add  to  its  own 
morsel,  tiU  ,.     length  the  confederation  liecame  frittered  down  to 
the  impotent  condition  in  which  it  now  stands.    Review  tiie  progress 
of  the  articles  of  Confederation  thro'  Congress  ft  compare  tiie  first 
ft  last  draught  of  it.    To  correct  its  vices  is  the  business  of  this  con- 
vention.   One  of  lU  vices  is  the  want  of  an  effectual  controul  in  the 
whole  over  its  parts.    What  danger  is  there  that  tiie  whole  wiU  un- 
necessarily sacrifice  a  partt    But  reverse  the  caae,  and  leave  tiie 
whole  at  tiie  mercy  of  each  part,  and  wUl  not  tiie  general  interest  be 
continually  sacrificed  to  local  interests  f 

Mr  Dickenson  deemed  it  impossible  to  draw  a  line  between  the 
eaaes  proper  ft  improper  for  the  exercise  of  the  negative.  We  must 
take  our  choice  of  two  things.  We  must  either  subject  the  States  to 
tiie  danger  of  being  injured  by  the  power  of  the  Nat?  Gov!  or  the 
latter  to  the  danger  of  being  injured  by  that  of  the  States  He 
thought  tiie  danger  greater  from  the  States  To  leave  the  power 
doubtful,  would  be  opening  another  spring  of  discord,  and  he  waa 
for  shuttme  ««  many  of  them  oh  possible. 

M!  Bedporu.    In  answer  to  his  colleague's  question  where  w1  be 


'The  word  "the"  is  here  inierted  in  the  tr«n«cript. 

The  word     the"  is  substituted  In  the  transcript  for  "ki.." 
The  word     more  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


MHOtOCOTY   RESOIUTION   TBT   CHAtT 

(ANSI  and  ISO  TEST  CHART  No   2) 


_J  /1PPLIED  IIW^GE     Inc 

g?*  '6^5   Easf   Mem    Slreel 

-^a  Rochester,    Ne*   Tof"         1*609        USA 

•JSS  (716)   482  -  0300  -  Pnone 

aaS  (716)    288-5989  -  f"a. 


78      DEBATES  IN  THE  TEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

the  danger  to  the  States  from  thU  power,  would  refer  him  to  die 
smallnesB  of  his  own  State  which  may  be  injured  at  pleasure  without 
redress.    It  was  meant  he  found  to  strip  the  smaU  States  of  their 
equal  right  of  suffrage.    In  this  case  Delaware  would  have  about  Ho 
for  its  share  in  the  General  Councils,  whilst  Pf  &  V»  would  possess 
H  of  the  whole.    Is  there  no  difference  of  interests,  no  rivalship  of 
commerce,  of  manufactures  T    WiU  not  these  large  States  crush  the 
smaU  ones  whenever  they  stand  in  the  way  of  their  ambitious  or  in- 
terested views.    This  shews  the  imposmbiUty  of  adopting  such  a 
system  as  that  on  the  table,  or  any  other  founded  on  a  change  in 
the  principle  of  representation.   And  after  aU,  if  a  State  does  not  obey 
the  law  of  the  new  System,  must  not  force  be  resorted  to  as  the  only 
ultimate  remedy,  in  this  as  in  any  other  system.    It  seems  as  if  P? 
&  Vt  by  the  conduct  of  their  deputies  wished  to  provide  a  system 
in  which  they  would  have  an  enormous  &  monstrous  influence.    Be- 
sides, How  can  it  be  thought  that  the  proposed  negative  can  be 
exercised!  are  the  laws  of  the  States  to  be  suspended  in  the  most 
urgent  cases  until  they  can  be  sent  seven  or  eight  hundred  miles, 
and  undergo  the  deliberations*  of  a  body  who  may  be  incapable  of 
Judging  of  themt    Is  the  National  Legislature  too  to  sit  continually 
in  order  to  revise  the  laws  of  the  States! 

M^  Madison  observed  that  the  difficulties  which  had  been  started 
were  worthy  of  attention  and  ought  to  be  answered  before  the  qnes- 
tion  was  put.    The  case  of  laws  of  urgent  necessity  must  be  provided 
for  by  some  emanation  of  the  power  from  the  Nat'  Govl  into  each 
State  so  far  as  to  give  a  temporary  assent  at  least.    This  was  the 
practice  in  Boyal  Colonies  before  the  Bevolution  and  would  not 
have  been  inconvenient,  if  the  supreme  power  of  negativing  had  been 
faithful  to  the  American  interest,  and  had  possessed  the  necessary 
information.    He  supposed  that  the  negative  might  be  very  properly 
lodged  in  the  senate  alone,  and  that  the  more  numerous  &  expensive 
branch  therefore  might  not  be  obliged  to  sit  constantly.— He  asked 
W.  B.  what  would  be  the  consequence  to  the  small  States  of  a  dissolu- 
tion  of  the  Union  w^  seemed  likely  to  happen- if  no  effectual  sub- 
stitute was  made  for  the  defective  System  existing,  and  he  did  not 
conceive  anv  effectual  system  could  be  substituted  on  any  other  basis 
than  that  of  a  proportional  suffrage!    If  the  large  States  possessed 
the  avarice  &  ambition  with  which  they  were  charged,  would  the 
small  ones  in  their  neighbourhood,  be  more  secure  when  all  controul 
of  a  Gen?  Gov*,  was  withdrawn. 


« The  tranwript  uses  the  word  "  deliberations  "  in  the  singular. 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  9,  1787 


79 


MT  BcTLEB  was  vehement  ag?  the  Negative  in  the  proposed  extent, 
as  cutting  off  all  hope  of  equal  justice  to  the  distant  States.  The 
people  there  would  not  he  was  sure  give  it  a  hearing. 

On  the  question  for  extending  the  negative  power  to  all  cases 
as  proposi  by  [M^  P.  &  Mi  M— ]  Mass.  ay.  Coni  no.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J. 
no.  P!  ay.  Del.  div?  M5  Bead  &  Ul  Dickenson  ay.  Mr  Bedford  & 
IE  Basset  no.  Mary4  no.  V?  ay.  Mf  E.  M?  Mason  no.  M^  Blair, 
Doc!  M^C.  M!  M.  ay.  Gen!  W.  not  consulted.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  nou 
Geo.  no.^ 

On  motion  of  W  Gebbt  and  M;  Kino  tomorrow  was  assigned  for 
reconsidering  the  mode  of  appointing  the  National  Executive:  the 
reconsideration  being  voted  for  by  all  the  States  except  Connecticut 
&  N.  Carolina. 

Ml  PiNKNST  and  M?  RuTLrooB  moved  to  add  to  Besol?  4.* 
agreed  to  by  the  Com?  the  following,  viz.  "  that  the  States  be  divided 
into  three  classes,  the  1?  class  to  have  3  members,  the  21  two.  &  the 
3?  one  member  each;  that  an  estimate  be  taken  of  the  comparative 
importance  of  each  State  at  fixed  periods,  so  as  to  ascertain  the 
number  of  members  they  may  from  time  to  time  be  entitled  to" 
The  Committee  then  rose  and  the  House  adjourned. 


Satcbdat  June  9T"  M?  Lutheb  Mabtin  pbom  Mabtland  took  his 
SEAT   In  oohmitteb  of  the  whole. 

M!  Gebbt,  according  to  previous  notice  given  by  him,  moved  "  that 
the  National  Executive  should  be  elected  by  the  Executives  of  the 
States  whose  proportion  of  votes  should  be  the  same  with  that 
allowed  to  the  States  in  the  election  of  the  Senate."  If  the  appointml 
should  be  made  by  the  Natj  Legislature,  it  would  lessen  that  in- 
dependence of  the  Executive  which  ought  to  prevail,  would  give  birth 
to  intrigue  and  corruption  between  the  Executive  &  Legislature 
previous  to  the  election,  and  to  partiality  in  the  Executive  after- 
wards to  the  friends  who  promoted  him.  Some  other  mode  therefore 
appeared  to  him  necessary.  He  proposed  that  of  appointing  by  the 
State  Executives  as  most  analogous  to  the  principle  observed  in  elect- 

*  In  the  tranacript  the  vote  readi:  "  MMaaehnaettt,  PenntylTaiiU,  Virginia, 
[Mr.  Randolph  and  Mr.  Maaon,  no:  Mr.  Blair,  Doctor  McClurg  and  Mr.  S^iion, 
aye  J  General  Washington  not  consulted,!  aye— 3;  Connecticut,  New  York,  New 
Jersey,  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 7;  Delaware, 
divided,  [Mr.  Read  and  Mr.  Dickinson,  aye;  Mr.  Bedford  and  Mr.  Basset,  no)." 

'  The  word*  "  the  fourth  Rewlution  "  are  Bubatituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  Reaol?  4."  '^ 


80      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

ing  the  other  branches  of  the  Nat'  Gov^;  the  first  branch  being  chosen 
by  the  people  of  the  States,  &  the  21  by  the  Legislatures  of  the  States; 
he  did  not  see  any  objection  ag!'  letting  the  Executive  be  appointed 
by  the  Executives  of  the  States.  He  supposed  the  Executives  would 
be  most  likely  to  select  the  fittest  men,  and  that  it  would  be  their 
interest  to  support  the  man  of  their  own  choice.  ^ 

Mr  Randolph,  urged  strongly  the  inexpediency  of  W  Gerry  s 
mode  of  appointing  the  Nat!  Executive.  The  confidence  of  the 
people  would  not  be  secured  by  it  to  the  Nat'  magistrate.  The  smaU 
States  would  lose  all  chance  of  an  appointm?  from  within  them- 
selves.  Bad  appointments  would  be  made;  the  Executives  of  the 
States  being  little  conversant  with  characters  not  within  their  own 
small  spheres.  The  State  Executives  too  notwithstanding  their  con- 
stitutional  independence,  being  in  fact  dependent  on  the  S+ate  Legis- 
latures will  generally  be  guided  by  the  views  of  the  latter,  and  pre- 
fer either  favorites  within  the  States,  or  such  as  it  may  be  expected 
will  be  most  partial  to  the  interests  of  the  State.  A  Nat!  Executive 
thus  chosen  mil  not  be  Ukely  to  defend  with  becoming  vigilance  & 
firmness  the  National  rights  agf*  State  encroachments  Vacancies  also 
must  happen.  How  can  these  be  filled!  He  could  not  suppose  either 
that  the  Executives  would  feel  the  interest  in  supporting  the  Nat 
Executive  which  had  been  imagined.  They  will  not  cherish  the  great 
Oak  which  is  to  reduce  them  to  paltry  shrubs. 

On  the  question  for  referring  the  appointment  of  the  Nat-  IiiX- 
ecutive  to  the  State  Executives  as  prop*  by  M'.  Gerry    Mass*!  no.  Con. 
N.  Y.  no.    N.  J.  no.    P?  no.    Del.  div4    Ml  no.    V»  no.    S.  O. 

,    Geo.  no.* 

M!  Patteeson  moves  that  the  Committee  resume  the  clause  re- 
lating to  the  rule  of  suffrage  in  the  Nat!  Legislature. 

M'  Brbarlt  seconds  him.  He  was  sorry  he  said  that  any  ques- 
tion on  this  point  was  brought  into  view.  It  had  been  much  agitated 
in  Cong*  at  the  time  of  forming  the  Confederation,  and  was  then 
rightly  settled  by  allowing  to  each  sovereign  State  an  equal  vote. 
Otherwise  the  smaller  States  must  have  been  destroyed  instead  of 
being  saved.  The  substitution  of  a  ratio,  he  admitted  carried  fair- 
ness on  the  face  of  it;  but  on  a  deeper  examination  was  unfair  and 
unjust.  Judging  of  the  disparity  of  the  States  by  the  quota  of 
Cong?  Virg^  would  have  16  votes,  and  Georgia  but  one.  A  like 
proportion  to  the  others  will  make  the  whole  number  ninity.    There 

IT    ii..  ♦.-„ciT.t  tliP  vote  reads:  " Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  York, 
New  JerS.  Pen::;?van':;M:r;rand,  Virginia,  South  Carolina.  OeorgU.  no; 
^Delaware  divided." 


no. 
no. 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  9,  1787 


81 


will  be  3.  large  states,  and  10  small  ones.  The  large  States  by  which 
he  meant  Mass*;  Pen?  &  Virg?  will  carry  every  thing  before  them. 
It  had  been  admitted,  and  was  known  to  him  from  facts  within  N. 
Jersey  that  where  large  &  small  counties  were  united  into  a  district 
for  electing  representatives  for  the  district,  the  large  counties  always 
carried  their  point,  and  Consequently  that^  the  large  States  would 
do  so.  Virg?  with  her  sixteen  votes  will  be  a  solid  column  indeed, 
a  formidable  phalanx.  While  Gkorgie  with  her  Solitary  vote,  and  the 
other  little  States  will  be  obliged  to  throw  themselves  constantly  into 
the  scale  of  some  large  one,  in  order  to  have  any  weight  at  all. 
He  had  come  to  the  convention  with  a  view  of  being  as  useful  as  he 
could  in  giving  energy  and  stability  to  the  federal  Oovemment 
When  the  proposition  for  destroying  the  equality  of  votes  came  for- 
ward, he  was  astonished,  he  was  alarmed.  Is  it  fair  then  it  will  be 
asked  that  Georgia  should  have  an  equal  vote  with  Virg?!  He  would 
not  say  it  was.  What  remedy  thent  One  only,  that  a  map  of  the 
U.  I.  be  spread  out,  that  all  the  existing  boundaries  be  erased,  and 
that  a  new  partition  of  the  whole  be  made  into  13  equal  parts. 

Mr  Patterson  considered  the  proposition  for  a  proportional  rep- 
resentation as  striking  at  the  existence  of  the  lesser  States.  He  w^ 
premise  however  to  an  investigation  of  this  question  some  remarks 
on  the  nature  structure  and  powers  of  the  Convention.  The  Con- 
vention he  said  was  formed  in  pursuance  of  an  Act  of  Congf  that  this 
act  was  recited  in  several  of  the  Commissions,  particularly  that  of 
Mass^  which  he  required  to  be  read:  that  the  amendment  of  the 
confederacy  was  the  object  of  all  the  laws  and  commissions  on  the 
subject;  that  the  articles  of  the  Confederation  were  therefore  the 
proper  basis  of  all  the  proceedings  of  the  Convention.*  We  ought 
to  keep  within  its  limits,  or  we  should  be  charged  by  our  Constituents 
with  usurpation,  that  the  people  of  America  were  sharpsighted  and 
not  to  be  deceived.  But  the  Commissions  under  which  we  acted  were 
not  only  the  measure  of  our  power,  they  denoted  also  the  sentiments 
of  the  States  on  the  subject  of  our  deliberation.  The  idea  of  a 
national  Otoy*.  as  contradistinguished  from  a  federal  one,  never  entered 
into  the  mind  of  any  of  them,  and  to  the  public  mind  we  must  accom- 
odate ourselves.  We  have  no  power  to  go  beyond  the  federal 
scheme,  and  if  we  had  the  people  are  not  ripe  for  any  other.  We 
must  follow  the  .eople;  the  people  will  not  follow  us. — The  proposi- 
tion could  not  be  maintained  whether  considered  in  reference  to 
us  as  a  nation,  or  as  a  confederacy.    A  confederacy  supposes  sov- 


■  The  word  "  that ' 
•  The  word  "  that ' 


is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


82      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

ereiimty  in  the  members  composing  it  &  sovereignty  supposes  equality. 
If  we  are  to  be  considered  as  a  nation,  aU  State  distinctions  must  be 
abolished    the  whole  must  be  thrown  into  hotchpot,  and  when  an 
equal  division  is  made,  then  there  may  be  fairly  an  equality  of 
representetion.     He  held  up  Virgf  Mass?  &  Pt  as  the  thr«e  large 
States,  and  the  other  ten  as  smaU  ones;  repeating  the  calculation,  of 
M;  Brearly  as  to  the  disparity  of  votes  which  w4  take  place,  and 
affirming  that  the  small  States  would  never  agree  to  it.     He  said 
there  wL  no  more  reason  that  a  great  individual  State  contributing 
much,  should  have  more  votes  than  a  small  one  contributing  little, 
than  that  a  rich  individual  citizen  would  have  more  votes  than  an 
indigent  one.    If  the  rateable  property  of  A  was  to  that  of  B  as 
40  to  1,  ought  A  for  that  reason  to  have  40  tiires  as  many  vot^  as  B. 
Such  a  principle  would  never  be  admitted,  and  if  it  were  adiaitted 
would  put  B  entirely  at  the  mercy  of  A.    As  A   has  more  to  be 
protected  than  B  so  he  ought  to  contribute  more  for  the  common 
protection.    The  same  may  be  said  of  a  large  State  ^  has  more 
io  be  protected  than  a  small  one.    Give  the  large  States  an  influence 
in  proportion  to  their  magnitude,  and  what  wiU  be  tV  •  consequencet 
Their  ambition  will  be  proportionally  increased,  and  the  small  States 
will  have  every  thing  to  fear.    It  was  once  P^PT^^^J^J^.';"?^*^*. 
some  others  that  America  should  be  represented  in  the  Bntash  ParT 
and  then  be  bound  by  its  laws.    America  could  not  have  ^"^  ^^^it  fd 
to  more  than  %  of  the  n?  of »  Representatives  which  would  fall  to  the 
share  of  G  B.    Would  American  rights  &  interests  have  been  safe 
under  an  authority  thus  ctostitutedt     It  has  been  said  that  if  a 
Nat!  Gov:  is  to  be  formed  so  as  to  operate  on  the  people  and  not  on 
the  States,  the  representatives  ouyht  to  be  drawn  from  the  people. 
But  why  so!    May  not  a  Legislature  filled  by  the  State  Legislatures 
operate  on  the  people  who  chuse  the  State  Legislatures!  or  may  not 
a  practicable  coercion  be  found.    He  admitted  that  there  was  none 
such  in  the  existing  System.-He  was  attached  strongly  to  the  plan 
of  the  existing  confederacy,  in  which  the  people  chuse  their  Legis- 
lative representatives;  and  the  Legislatures  their  federal  representa- 
tives     No  other  amendments  were  wanting  than  to  mark  the  orbits 
of  the  States  with  due  precision,  and  provide  for  the  use  of  coercion, 
which  vvas  the  great  point.    He  alluded  to  the  hint  thrown  out  here- 
tofore by  W  "Wilson  of  the  necessity  to  which  the  large  States  might 
be  reduced  of  confederating  among  themselves,  by  a  refusal  of  the 
othere  to  concur.    Let  them  unite  if  they  please,  but  let  them  re- 
» The  words  "  n?  of "'  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  9,  1787 


83 


member  that  they  have  no  authority  to  compel  the  others  to  unite. 
N.  Jersey  will  never  confederate  on  the  plan  before  the  Committee. 
She  would  be  swallowed  up.  He  hnd  rather  submit  to  a  monarch,  to 
a  despot,  than  to  such  a  fate.  He  would  not  only  oppose  the  plan 
here  but  on  his  return  home  do  every  thing  in  his  power  to  defeat 
it  there. 

IdT  Wilson,  hoped  if  the  Confederacy  should  be  dissolved,  that 
a  majority,  that  a  minority  of  the  States  would  unite  for  their  safety. 
He  entered  elaborately  into  the  defence  of  a  proportional  representa- 
tion, stating  for  his  first  position  that  as  all  authority  was  derived 
from  the  people,  equal  numbers  of  people  ought  to  have  an  equal  n? 
of  representatives,  and  different  numbers  of  people  different  numbers 
of  reprefsentatives.  This  principle  had  been  improperly  violated  in 
the  Confederation,  owing  to  the  urgent  circumstances  of  the  time. 
Ab  to  the  case  of  A.  &  B,  stated  by  W-  Patterson,  he  observed  that 
in  districts  as  large  as  the  States,  the  number  of  people  was  the 
best  measure  of  their  comparative  wealth.  Whether  therefore  wealth 
or  numbers  were  *  to  form  the  ratio  it  would  be  the  same.  W  P.  ad- 
mitted persons,  not  property  to  be  the  measure  of  suffrage.  Are  not 
the  Citizens  of  Pen^  equal  to  those  of  N.  Jersey  T  does  it  require  150 
of  the  former  to  balance  50  of  the  latter  f  Representatives  of  differ- 
ent districts  ought  clearly  to  hold  the  same  proportion  to  each  other, 
as  their  respective  Constituents  hold  to  each  other.  If  the  small 
States  will  not  confederate  on  this  plan.  Pen'  &  he  presumed  some 
other  States,  would  not  confederate  on  any  other.  We  have  been 
told  that  each  State  being  sovereign,  all  are  equal.  So  each  man  is 
naturally  a  sovereign  over  himself,  and  all  men  are  therefore  nat- 
urally equal.  Can  he  retain  this  equality  when  he  becomes  a  mem- 
ber of  Civil  Government?  He  can  not.  As  little  can  a  Sovereign 
State,  when  it  becomes  a  member  of  a  federal  Qovemi  If  N.  J.  will 
not  part  with  her  Sovereignty  it  is  in  vain  to  talk  of  Gtov.*  A  new 
partition  of  the  States  is  desireable,  but  evidently  &  totally  im- 
practicable. 

IP  Williamson,  illustrated  the  eases  by  a  comparison  of  the  dif- 
ferent States,  to  Counties  of  different  sizes  within  the  same  State; 
observing  that  proportional  representation  was  admitted  to  be  just  in 
the  latter  case,  and  could  not  therefore  be  fairly  contested  in  the 
former. 

The  Question  being  about  to  be  put  MT  Patterson  hoped  that  as 


•  The  word  "  was  "  ig  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  were." 


84      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

80  much  depended  on  it,  it  might  be  thought  best  to  postpone  the 
decision  till  tomorrow,  which  was  done  nem.  con. 
The  Com*,  rose  &  the  House  adjourned. 


Monday.  June  11^«   M"*  Abeauam  B,vldwin  fbom  Gbobou  took 
HIS  SEAT.    In  Committbe  op  tiie  whole. 

The  clause  concerning  the  rule  of  suffrage  in  the  nat'  Legislature 
postponed  on  Saturday  was  resumed. 

M'  Shabman  proposed  that  the  proportion  of  suffrage  m  the  1. 
branch  should  be  according  to  the  respective  numbers  of  free  in- 
habitants; and  that  in  the  second  branch  or  Senate,  each  State  should 
have  one  vote  and  no  more.  He  said  fc.  the  States  would  remain 
possessed  of  certain  individual  rights,  each  State  ought  to  be  able  to 
protect  itself:  otherwise  a  few  large  States  will  rule  the  rest.  The 
House  of  Lords  in  England  he  observed  had  certain  particular  nghta 
under  the  Constitution,  and  hence  they  have  an  equal  vote  with  the 
House  of  Commons  that  they  may  be  able  to  defend  their  rights. 

M:  Rutlidob  proposed  that  the  proportion  of  suffrage  m  the  1. 
branch  should  be  according  to  the  quotas  of  contribution.    The  justice 
of  this  rule  he  said  could  not  be  contested.    M'.  Bctleb  urged  the 
same  idea:  adding  that  money  was  power;  and  that  the  States  ought 
to  have  weight  in  the  Gov!  in  proportion  to  their  wealth. 

M^  King  &  M'.  Wilson,*  in  order  to  bring  the  question  to  a  point 
moved  "  that  the  right  of  suffrage  in  the  first  branch  of  the  national 
Legislature  ought  not  to  be  according^  the  rule  established  in  the 
articles  of  Confederation,  but  according  to  some  equitable  ratio  of 
representation."  The  clause  so  far  as  it  related  to  suffrage  in  the 
first  branch  was  postponed  in  order  to  consider  this  motion 

M'.  Dickenson  contended  for  the  actual  contributions  of  the  States 
as  the  rule  of  their  representation  &  suffrage  in  the  first  branch. 
By  thus  connecting  the  interest'  of  the  States  with  their  duty,  the 
latter  would  be  sure  to  be  performed.  .  .*  i. 

Sr.  King  remarked  that  it  was  uncertain  what  mode  might  be 
used  in  levying  a  national  revenue;  but  that  it  was  probable,  imposts 
would  be  one  source  of  it.  If  the  aciud  contributions  were  to  be 
the  rule  the  non-importing  States,  as  ConJ  &  N.  Jersey,  w^.  be  m  a 
•In  the  printed  Journal  Mr.  Rutlldge  is  rained  as  the  seconder  of  the 


motion. 


■The  word  "to"  is  here  inwrted  in  *!>?  tw"*?"?*;, „, 
•  The  tranicript  uses  the  word  "  interest     in  the  plural. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JUNE  11,  1787  86 

bad  ritnation  indeed.  It  might  w  happen  that  they  w*!  have  no 
representation.  This  aituation  of  particular  States  had  been  alwayt 
one  powerful  argument  in  favor  of  the  5  Per  C  impoat. 

The  question  being  ab^  to  be  put  Doc'.  Fbamkun  ri?  he  bad  thrown 
his  ideas  of  the  matter  on  a  paper  w^  Mt  Wilson  read  to  the  Cwn- 
mittee  in  the  words  following— 

MI  Chairk AN  .        .       .        u 

It  has  given  me  great  pleasure  to  observe  that  till  thu  point,  the 
proportion  of  representation,  came  before  us,  our  debates  were  carried 
on  with  great  coobiess  ft  temper.  If  any  thing  of  a  contrary  kind, 
has  on  this  occasion  appeared,  I  hope  it  wUl  not  be  repeated;  for 
we  are  sent  here  to  cotuult,  not  to  contend,  with  each  other;  and 
declarations  of  a  fixed  opinion,  and  of  determined  resolution,  never 
to  change  it,  neither  enlighten  nor  convince  us.  Positiveness  and 
warmth  on  one  side,  naturally  beget  their  like  on  the  other;  and 
tend  to  create  and  augment  discord  &  division  in  a  great  concern, 
wherein  harmony  &  Union  are  extremely  necessary  to  give  weight 
to  our  Councils,  and  render  them  effectual  in  promoting  ft  securing 
the  common  good. 

I  must  own  that  I  was  originaUy  of  opinion  it  would  be  better 
if  every  member  of  Congress,  or  our  national  Council,  were  to  con- 
sider himself  rather  as  a  representative  of  the  whole,  than  as  an 
Agent  for  the  interests  of  a  particular  State;  in  which  case  the 
proportion  of  members  for  each  State  would  be  of  less  consequence,  ft 
it  would  not  be  very  material  whether  they  voted  by  States  or 
individuaUy.    But  as  I  find  this  is  not  to  be  expected,  I  now  think 
the  number  of  Representatives  should  bear  some  proportion  to  the 
number  of  the  Represented;  and  that  the  decisions  shI  be  by  the 
majority  of  members,  not  by  the  majority  of »  States.    This  is  objected 
to  from  an  apprehension  that  tht  greater  States  would  then  swallow 
up  the  smaller.    I  do  not  at  present  clearly  see  what  advantage 
the  greater  States  could  propose  to  themselves  by  swallowing'  the 
smaller,  and  therefore  do  not  apprehend  they  would  attempt  it    I 
recollect  that  in  the  beginning  of  this  Century,  when  the  Union  was 
proposed  of  the  two  Kingdoms,  England  &  Scotland,  the  Scotch 
Patriots  were  full  of  fears,  that  unless  they  had  an  equal  number  of 
Representatives  in  Parliament,  they  should  be  ruined  by  the  superior- 
ity of  the  English.    They  finally  agreed  however  that  the  different 
proportions  of  importance  in  the  Union,  of  the  two  Nations  should 


•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  itwerted  in  the  tmnicript. 

•  The  word  "  up  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tran»cript. 


8C      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

be  attended  to,  whereby  they  were  to  have  only  forty  memben  in 
the  House  of  Commons,  and  only  nxteen  in  the  Houm  of  Lorda;  A 
veiy  great  inferiority  of  nnmbenl  And  yet  to  thia  day  I  do  not 
rt(coll8ct  that  any  thing  haa  bten  done  in  the  Parliament  of  Great 
Britain  to  the  pwjndice  of  Scotland;  and  whoever  loola  over  the 
lists  of  pubUo  ofBcera,  Civil  ft  military  of  that  nation  will  find  I 
beUeve  that  the  North  Britons  enjoy  at  least  their  full  proportimi 

of  emoloment. 

But,  Sir,  in  the  present  mode  of  voting  by  SUtes,  it  is  equally 
in  the  power  of  the  lesser  States  to  swaUow  up  the  greater;  and  this 
is  mathematically  demonstrable.  Suppose  for  example,  that  7  smaller 
States  had  each  3  members  in  the  House,  and  the  6  larger  to  have 
one  with  another  6  memben;  and  that  upon  a  question,  two  members 
of  each  smaller  State  should  be  in  the  affirmative  and  one  in  the 
Negative ;  they  will »  make 

AlBrmatives M Negatives     7 

And  that  all  the  larger  States 

should    be    unanimously    in 

the    Negative,    they    would 

make  Negatives    36 

Inall « 

It  is  then  apparent  that  the  14  carry  the  question  against  the  43. 
and  the  minority  overpowers  the  majority,  contrary  to  the  common 
practice  of  Assemblies  in  all  Countries  and  Ages. 

The  greater  Stotes  Sir  are  naturally  as  unwilling  to  have  thdr 
property  left  in  the  disposition  of  the  smaller,  as  the  smaller  are  to 
have  theirs  in  the  disposition  of  the  greater.  An  honorable  gentle- 
man has,  to  avoid  this  difficulty,  hinted  a  proposition  of  equalising 
the  States.  It  appears  to  me  an  equitable  one,  and  I  should,  for  my 
own  part,  not  be  against  such  a  measure,  if  it  might  be  found  prac- 
ticable. Formerly,  indeed,  when  almost  every  province  had  a  differ- 
ent Constitution,  some  with  greater  others  with  fewer  privileges,  it 
was  of  importance  to  the  borderers  when  their  boundaries  were  caa- 
tested,  whether  by  running  the  division  lines,  they  were  placed  on 
one  aide  or  the  other.  At  present  when  such  differences  are  done 
away,  it  is  less  material.  The  Interest  of  a  State  is  made  up  of 
the  interests  of  its  individual  members.  If  they  are  not  injured, 
the  SUte  is  not  injured.    Small  States  are  more  easily  well  &  hap- 

« The  word  "  will  "  U  changed  to  "  would  **  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAT.  JUNE  11.  1787 


87 


pily  gorerned  than  large  onea.  If  therefore  in  raeh  an  equal  diviaion, 
it  should  be  found  neceuaiy  to  diminiab  Penniylvania,  I  ahoald  not 
be  averse  to  the  giving  a  part  of  it  to  N.  Jersey,  and  another  to 
Delaware.  But  as  there  would  probably  be  considerable  diiBealtias 
in  adjusting  such  a  division;  and  however  equally  made  at  first, 
it  would  be  continually  varying  by  the  augmentation  of  inhabitants  in 
some  States,  and  their  ^  fixed  proportion  in  others;  and  thence  tn- 
quent  occasion  for  new  divisions,  I  beg  leave  to  propose  for  the  con- 
sideration of  the  Committee  another-  mode,  which  appears  to  me,  to 
be  as  equitable,  mon  easily  earriad  into  praetioe,  and  more  permanent 
in  its  nature. 

Let  the  weakest  State  say  what  proportion  of  money  or  force 
it  is  able  and  willing  to  furnish  for  the  general  purposes  of  the 
Union. 

Let  all  the  others  oblige  themselves  to  furnish  each  an  equal 
proporti<nL 

The  whde  of  these  joint  supplies  to  be  nbeolutely  in  the  disposition 
of  Congress. 

The  Congress  in  this  case  to  be  composed  of  an  equal  number  of 
Delegates  from  each  State. 

And  their  decisions  to  be  1^  the  Majority  of  individual  members 
voting. 

If  these  joint  and  equal  supplies  should  on  particular  occasions 
not  be  sufBcient,  Let  Congress  make  requisitions  on  the  richer  and 
mon  powerful  States  for  fartiier  aids,  to  be  voluntarily  afforded, 
leaving  to  each  State  the  right  of  considering  the  necessity  and  utility 
of  the  aid  desired,  and  of  giving  more  or  less  as  it  should  be  found 
proper. 

This  mode  is  not  new,  it  waa  formerly  practised  with  success 
by  the  British  Government  with  respect  to  Ireland  and  the  Colonies. 
We  sometimes  gave  even  more  than  they  expected,  or  thought  just 
to  accept;  and  in  the  last  war  carried  on  while  we  were  united,  they 
gave  us  back  in  5  years  a  million  Steriing.  We  should  probably  have 
continued  such  voluntary  contributions,  whenever  the  occasions  ap- 
peared to  require  them  for  the  common  good  of  the  Empire.  It 
was  not  till  they  chose  to  force  us,  and  to  deprive  us  of  the  merit 
and  pleasure  of  voluntary  contributions  that  we  refused  &  resisted. 
Those "  contributions  however  were  to  be  disposed  of  at  the  pleasure 
o!  a  Government  in  which  we  had  no  representative.    I  am  therefore 


« The  word  "  more  "  1r  in  the  Frmklin  maniwcript. 

'The  word  "The«e"  U  lubrtituUd  in  the  tmiKript  for  "Tfcoss." 


M   DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

penuided,  thai  they  will  not  be  refoMd  to  one  in  which  the  Repre- 
■entatiuu  ihall  be  equal 

My  learned  Colleague  [M'.  Wilson]  hoa  already  mentioned  that 
the  prewnt  method  of  voting  by  SUtei,  was  submitted  to  originally 
by  Congreia,  under  a  conviction  of  its  impropriety,  inequality,  and 
injustice.  This  appears  in  the  words  of  their  Resolution.  It  is  of 
Sep'  6.  1774.    The  words  are 

"Resolved  that  in  determining  questions  in  this  ConG<*>  <!AC^ 
Colony  or  province  shall  have  one  vote:  The  Congt  not  being  pos- 
sessed  of  or  at  prerent  able  to  procure  materials  for  ascertaining  the 
importance  of  each  Colony." 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  Mt  Kings  and  &K  Wilsons 
motion  it  passed  in  the  afiSrmative 


Mass",  ay.    C?  ay. 


N. 


J.  no. 
I 


Pt  ay.    Del.  no.    M< 


N.  Y.  no. 
div4.    V!ci-.    N.C.ay.    a  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 

It  was  then  moved  by  iP  Rutudoe  2*^  by  M!  Bittizr  to  add  to 
the  words  "  equitable  ratio  of  representation  "  at  the  end  of  the 
motion  just  agreed  to,  the  words  "  according  to  the  quotaa  of  con- 
tribution." On  motion  of  M^  Wilson  seconded  by  M^  C.  Pincknkt, 
this  was  postponed ;  in  order  to  add,  after,  after  the  words  "equitable 
ratio  of  representatiun  "  the  words  following  "  in  proportion  to 
the  whole  niunber  of  white  ft  other  free  Citisens  ft  inhabitanta  of 
every  age  sex  &  condition  including  those  bound  to  servitude  for 
a  term  of  years  and  three  ftbs  of  all  other  persons  not  compre- 
hended in  the  foregoing  description,  except  Indians  not  paying  taxes, 
in  each  State,"  this  being  the  rule  in  the  Act  of  Congress  agreed 
to  by  eleven  States,  for  apportioning  quotas  of  revenue  on  the 
States,  and  requiring  a  Census  only  every  5-7,  or  10  years. 

Ml  Qebby  thought  property  not  the  rule  of  representation. 
Why  then  sh*  the  blacks,  who  were  property  in  the  South,  be 
in  Che  rule  of  representation  more  than  the  Cattle  ft  hones  of  the 
North. 

On  the  question,— Mass :  Con :  N.  Y.  Pen :  Mary*  Virg?  N.  C.  S.  C. 
&  leo:  were  in  the  afllrmative:*  N.  J.  &  Del:  in  the  negative.' 

W  Shabman  moved  that  a  qaestion  be  taken  whether  each  State 
shall  have  one  vote  in  the  2^  branch.  Every  thing  he  said  depended 
on  this.    The  smaller  States  would  never  agree  to  the  plan  on  any 


'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  resds:  "  MsMschnsetti,  Connecticut,  Penntyl- 
vanis,  Virginia.  X'Tth  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Geor^fla,  aye— 7;  New  York, 
New  Jersey,  Delaware.  n(f-3;  Maryland  dirlded  "  .  ,.^  . 

» In  place  of  the  phrase  "  were  in  the  affirmative  the  transcript  subetitutes 
«  aye— 9 ;  "  and  instead  of  "  in  the  negative  "  the  expression  "  no— 2  "  is  used. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAT,  JUNE  11,  1787  8» 

otbar  principle  than  an  equality  of  luffrage  in  this  branch.  M* 
EuiwoRTH  Mconded  th«  motion.  On  Uw  qneation  tor  allowing  caob 
State  one  vote  in  th«  21  branch. 

MaM*;  no.  Con;  ay.  N.  T.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P%  no.  Del.  ay. 
Mi  ay.    V:  no.    N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  no.    Oeo.  no.> 

M^  WnMOV  A  M'.  Hkun/tos  mored  that  the  right  of  raff  rage  in 
the  21  branch  ought  to  be  according  to  the  aame  role  aa  in  the  If 
branch.  On  thia  question  for  making  the  ratio  of  representation 
the  aame  in  the  2^  aa  in  the  If  branch  it  paiaed  in  the  affirmative: 

ManH  ay.  Conl  no.  N.  T.  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pt  ay.  Del.  no.  Bfff 
no.   V?  ay.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.» 

Resol:  11,*  for  guarantying  Republican  Oovt  ft  territory  to  each 
State  being  conaidered:  the  words  "  or  partition  "  were,  on  motion 
of  W  Madison,  added,  after  the  words  "  voluntary  junction :  " 

Maa.  N.  Y.  P.  Vf»N.  C.  S.  C.  G.  ay*  Con:  N.  J.  Del.  M"  no.* 

MT  RxAO  disliked  the  idea  of  guarantying  territory.  It  abetted  the 
idea  of  distinet  Statea  w*^  would  be  a  perpetual  source  of  discord. 
There  can  be  no  eure  for  this  evil  but  in  doing  away  Statea  altogether 
and  uniting  them  all  into  one  great  Society. 

Alterations  having  been  made  in  the  Reijlution,  making  it  read 
"that  a  republican  Constitution  ft  its  existing  laws  ou|^t  to  be 
guaranteed  to  each  State  by  the  U.  States  "  the  whole  was  agreed 
to  nem.  con. 

Resolution  13,*  for  amending  the  national  Constitution  hereafter 
without  consent  of*  Nat!  Legislature  being  considered,  several  mem- 
bers did  not  see  the  necessity  of  the  Resolution  at  all,  nor  the  propriety 
of  making  the  consent  of  the  Nat'  Legial.  unnecessary. 

Col.  Mason  urged  the  neceaaity  of  rach  a  prorisioo.  The  plan 
now  to  be  formed  will  certainly  be  defective,  as  the  Confederation 
has  been  found  on  trial  to  be.  Amendments  therefore  will  be  neces- 
sary, and  it  will  be  better  to  provide  for  them,  in  an  eaqr,  regular 
and  Constitutional  way  than  to  trust  to  chance  nnd  violence.    It 


•In  the  trtnieript  the  vote  readi;  " Connecticnt,  New  York,  New  Jereej, 
Delawmre,  MarylMid.  aye— S;  MatMchuMtts,  Pennsylmnia,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — fl." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  " Blassachuietts,  PenntylTania,  Virginia, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  Hje;  Connecticut,  New  York,  New 
Jersey,  Delaware,  Maryland,  no." 

'The  words  "The  elerenth  Seaolotlon "  ars  substituted  in  the  transcript 
for  "Resol    11." 

'The  figures  "7"  and  "4"  are  inserted  in  the  transcript  after  "ay"  and 
"no,"  respectively. 

■  The  words  "  The  thirteenth  Resolution  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript 
for  "  Resolution  13." 

*  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 


90      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

would  be  improper  to  require  the  consent  of  the  Nat!  Legislature, 
because  they  may  abuse  their  power,  and  refuse  their  consent '  on  that 
very  account.    The  opportunity  for  such  an  abuse,  may  be  the  fault 
of  the  Constitution  calling  for  amendm^ 
M^  Randolph  enforced  these  arguments. 

The  words,  "  without  requiring  the  consent  of  the  Nat'  Legis- 
lature "  were  postponed.  The  other  provision  in  the  clause  passed 
nem.  con. 

Resolution  14,*  requiring  oaths  from  the  members  of  the  State 
Gov?  to  observe  the  Nat!  Constitution  &  laws,  being  considered. 

JP  Sharman  opposed  it  as  unnecessarily  intruding  into  the  State 
jurisdictions. 

m  Randolph  considered  it  as'  necessary  to  prevent  that  com- 
petition between  the  National  Constitution  &  laws  &  those  of  the 
particular  3tates,  which  had  already  been  felt.  The  officers  of  the 
States  are  already  under  cHh  to  the  States.  To  preserve  a  ''ue 
impartiality  they  ought  to  be  equally  bound  to  the  Nat!  Qovl  The 
Nat.'  authority  needs  every  support  we  can  give  it.  The  Executive 
&  Judiciary  of  the  States,  notwithstanding  their  nominal  indepen- 
dence on  the  State  Legislatures  are  in  fact,  so  dependent  on  them, 
that  unless  they  be  brought  under  some  tie  to  the  Nat!  System,  uiey 
will  always  lean  too  much  to  the  State  systems,  whenever  a  contest 
arises  between  the  two. 

M^  Gebry  did  not  like  the  clause.  He  thought  there  was  as  mach 
reason  for  requiring  an  oath  of  fidelity  to  the  States,  from  Nat' 
officers,  as  vice,  versa. 

IK  LxTTHEB  Martin  moved  to  strike  out  the  words  requiring  such 
an  oath  from  the  State  officers,  viz  "  within  the  several  States  " 
observing  that  if  the  new  oath  should  be  contrary  to  that  already 
taken  by  them  it  would  be  improper;  if  coincident  the  oaths  already 
taken  will  be  sufficient 

On  the  question  for  striking  out  as  proposed  by  M5  L.  Martin 


Mass*!  no.     Con',  ay. 


N.  Y.  no.     N.  J.  ay.     P^  no.     Del.  ay, 
Ml  ay.    V?  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

Question  on  *  whole  R&solution  as  proposed  by  Mt  Randolph ; 


»The  word  "  assent"  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "consent." 
■  The  words  "  The  fourteenth  Resolution  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript 
for  "  Resolution  14." 

•  Thr  word  "  as"  is  crossed  out  in  the  transcript.      .,        ,  „  , 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut.  New  Jersey.  Mojare, 
Maryland,  aye-4;  Massachusetts,  New  _  York,  Pennsylvania.  Virginia,  North 
Carolina.  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 7."  _ 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcrint. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  12,  1787 


91 


Mass'!  ay. 


Con!  no.    N.  Y.  no.    N.  J.  no.    Pr  ay.    Del.  no.    W 


no.    V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 
"  Com*,  rose  & '  House  adj? 


Tbusdat  June  12Th  in  Comiiittee  op  *  wholb 

The  Question '  taken  on  Resolution  15,*  to  wit,  referring  the  new 
system  to  the  people  of  the "  States  for  ratification  it  passed  in  the 
s^rmative :  Mass';  ay.  Coni  no.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  no.  P!  *  ay.  Del. 
div^    M!l  divl    V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.« 

Ml  Sharman  &  W  Elsewobth  moved  '■  i  fill  the  blank  left  in  the 
4*^  Resolution  for  the  periods  of  electing  the  members  of  the  first 
branch  with  the  words,  "  every  year."  M'.  Sharman  observing  that 
he  did  it  in  order  to  bring  on  some  question. 

M;  Rutudoe  proposed  "  every  two  years." 

W  Jennifer  propi  "  every  three  years,"  observing  that  the  too 
great  frequency  of  elections  rendered  the  people  indifferent  to  them, 
and  made  the  best  men  unwilling  to  engage  in  so  precarious  a  service. 

MT  Madison  seconded  the  motion  for  three  years.  Instability  is 
one  of  the  great  vices  of  our  republics,  to  be  remedied.  Three  years 
will  be  necessary,  in  a  Government  so  extensive,  for  members  to  form 
any  knowledge  of  the  various  interests  of  the  States  to  which  they 
do  not  belong,  and  of  which  they  can  know  but  little  from  the  situa- 
tion and  affairs  of  their  own.  One  year  will  be  almost  consumed  in 
preparing  for  and  travelling  to  &  from  the  seat  of  national  business. 

Mr  Gi»RT.  The  people  of  New  England  will  never  give  up  the 
point  of  annual  elections,  they  know  of  the  transition  made  in  Eng- 
land from  trieiinial  to  septennial  elections,  and  will  consider  such  an 
innovation  here  as  the  prelude  to  a  like  usurpation.  He  considered 
annual  elections  as  the  only  defence  of  the  people  ag!'  tyranny.  He 
was  as  much  ag!*  a  triennial  House  as  ag"?  a  hereditary  Executive. 


*  PennsylTania  omitted  in  the  printed  Journal, 
as  of  June  11th. 


The  vote  is  there  entered 


•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,  Virginia, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  Connecticut,  New  York,  New 
Jersey,  Delaware,  Maryland,  no— 6." 

"  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•The  words  "the  fifteenth  Resolution"  are  substituted  in  the  transcript 
for  "  Resolution  15." 

•  The  word  "  United  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,*  Virginia, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  Connecticut,  New  York,  New 
Jersey,  no — 3;  Delaware,  Maryland,  divided." 


92      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

IK  Madison,  observed  that  if  the  opinions  of  the  people  were  to 
be  our  guide,  it  w^  be  difiBcult  to  say  what  course  we  ought  to  take. 
No  member  of  the  Convention  could  say  what  the  opinions  of  his 
Constituents  were  at  this  time;  much  less  could  he  say  what  they 
would  think  if  possessed  of  the  information  &  lights  possessed  by 
the  members  here ;  &  still  less  what  would  be  their  way  of  thinking 
6  or  12  months  hence.  We  ought  to  consider  what  was  right  & 
necessary  in  itself  for  the  attainment  of  a  proper  Govemm'.  A  plan 
adjusted  to  this  idea  will  recommend  itself — The  respectability  of  this 
convention  will  give  weight  to  their  recommendation  of  it.  Experi- 
ence will  be  constantly  urging  the  adoption  of  it,  and  all  the  most 
enlightened  &  respectable  citizens  will  be  its  advocates.  Should  we 
fall  short  of  the  necessary  &  proper  point,  this  influential  class  of 
Citizens  will  be  turned  against  the  plan,  and  little  support  in  opposi- 
tion to  them  can  be  gained  to  it  from  the  unreflecting  multitude. 

IP  Gebby  repeated  his  opinion  that  it  was  necessary  to  consider 
what  the  people  would  approve.  This  had  been  the  policy  of  all 
Legislators.  If  the  reasoning  of  Ml  Madison  were  just,  and  we  sup- 
posed a  limited  Monarchy  the  best  form  in  itself,  we  ought  to  recom- 
mend it,  tho'  the  genius  of  the  people  was  decidedly  adverse  to  it, 
and  having  no  hereditary  distinctions  among  us,  we  were  destitute  of 
the  essential  materials  for  such  an  innovation. 

On  the  question  for  *  triennial  election  of  the  l!*  branch 

Mass.  no.  [W  King  ay.]  MJ  Ghorum  wavering.  ConI  no.  N.  Y. 
ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M4  ay.  Vf  ay.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  no. 
Geo.  ay.* 

The  words  requiring  members  of  y?  1!*  branch  to  be  of  the  age 
of  years  were  struck  out  Maryland  alone,  no.    The  words  "  lib- 

eral compensation  for  members  "  being  considl  Mi  Madison  moves  to 
insert  the  words,  "  <fc  fixt."  He  observed  that  it  would  be  improper  to 
leave  the  members  of  the  Nat?  legislature  to  be  provided  for  by  the 
State  Legisl!  because  it  would  create  an  improper  dependence ;  and  to 
leave  them  to  regulate  their  own  wages,  was  an  indecent  thing,  and 
might  in  time  prove  a  dangerous  one.  He  thought  wheat  or  some  other 
article  of  which  the  average  price  throughout  a  reasonable  period 
preceding  might  be  settled  in  some  convenient  mode,  would  form  a 
proper  standard. 

Col.  Mason  seconded  the  motion;  adding  that  it  would  be  im- 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  York,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania, 
Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  Georgia,  aye — 7;  Massachusetts  [Mr.  King,  aye, 
Mr.  Gorham,  wavering]  Connecticut,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 4." 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  12,  1787 


98 


proper  for  other  reasons  to  leave  the  wages  to  be  regulated  by  the 
States.  1.*  the  different  States  would  make  different  provision  for 
their  representatives,  and  an  inequality  would  be  felt  among  them, 
whereas  he  thought  they  ought  to  be  in  all  respects  equal.  2.'-  the 
parsimony  of  the  States  might  reduce  the  provision  so  low  that  aa 
had  already  happened  in  choosing  delegates  to  Congress,  the  question 
would  be  not  who  were  most  fit  to  be  chosen,  but  who  were  most 
willing  to  serve. 

On  the  question  for  inserting  the  words  "and  6xt" 

Mass?  no.  Con*  no.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay,  Pf  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml 
ay.   Vr  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

Doct?  Pbanklyn  said  he  approved  of  the  amendment  just  made 
for  rendering  the  salaries  as  fixed  as  possible ;  but  disliked  the  word 
"  liberal."  he  would  prefer  the  word  moderate  if  it  was  necessary 
to  substitute  any  other.  He  remarked  the  tendency  of  abuses  in  every 
case,  to  grow  of  themselves  when  once  begun,  and  related  very  pleas- 
antly the  progression  in  ecclesiastical  benefices,  from  the  first  de- 
parture from  the  gratuitous  provision  for  the  Apostles,  to  the  estab- 
lishment of  the  papal  system.  The  word  "  liberal  "  was  struck  out 
nem.  con. 

On  the  motion  of  W.  Piebce,  that  the  wages  should  be  paid  out 
of  the  National  Treasury,  Mass?  ay.  C*  no.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  ay. 
Pf  ay.   Del.  ay.   M*.  ay.   V»  ay.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  no.    G.  ay.» 

Question  on  the  clause  relating  to  term  of  service  &  compensation 
of*  1!*  branch 

Mass?  ay.  CI  no.  N.  Y  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P!  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
Vt  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  a  question  for  striking  out  the  "  ineligibility  of  members  of 
♦Nat!  Legis:  to  State  offices." 

Mass?  div^  Con*,  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pt  no.  Del.  no. 
M  divl   V»  no.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no* 


•The  figures  "1"  and  "2"  *re  changed  to  "Firrt"  and  "Secondly"  in 
the  transcript.  „    .    „       ,  t,         .      > 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  New  York,  Kew  Jersey,  Pennsylvania, 
Delaware,  MaryUnd,  VirginU,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8j  Massachusetts, 
Connecticut,  South  Carolina,  no— 8."  ...       ,  ^         , 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  Pennsyl- 
vania, Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8;  Con- 
necticut, New  York,  South  Carolina,  no — 3." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  Pennsyl- 
vania, Delaware,  Maryland,  Vii^nia,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8;  Connecti- 
cut, New  York,  South  Carolina,  no— 8." 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  York,  North  Carolina, 
South  Carolina,  aye— 4;  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  Georgia, 
no — 6;  Magsachusetts,  Maryland,  divided." 


94      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  the  davwe  as  amended. 

Ma«8^  ay.  ConI  no.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay  M. 
ay.    Vt  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

On  a  question  for  making  Members  of  Nat!  legislature  ineligible 
to  any  office  under  the  Nat{  Govl  for  the  term  of  3  years  after  ceasing 
to  be  members. 

Mass? no.  Conine.  N.Y.no.  N.  J.  r'>.  P!  no.  Del.  ao.  M?ay 
V!  no.    N  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

On  the  question  for  such  ineligibility  for  one  year 


Mass?  ay.    C!  ay. 


N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M* 
div«.   Vtay.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no." 

On»  question  moved  by  M?  Pincknby  for  striking  out '  incapable 
of  re-election  into '  1!'  branch  of '  Nat'  Legisl.  for  years,  and 

subject  to  recall  "  ag^.  to  nem.  con. 

On"  question  for  striking  out  from  Resol:  5 »  the  words  requinng 
members  of  the  senatorial  branch  to  be  of  the  age  of  years  at 

least 

Mass*,  no.  ConUy.  N.Y.no.  N.  J.  ay.  Kay.  Del.no.  M?no. 
V!no.    N.  C.  div^.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  div^» 

On  the  question  for  filling  the  blank  with  30  years  as  the  qualifica- 
tion ;  it  was  agreed  to. 

Mass**  ay.  Con*  no.  N.  Y.  ay  N.  J.  no.  P»  ay  Del.  no  W  ay 
V?  ay   N.  C.  ay   S.  C.  ay   Geo.  no  ^ 

M^  Spaight  moved  to  fiU  the  blank  for  the  duration  of  the  ap- 
pointm?  to  the  2*?  branch  of  the  National  Legislature  with  the  words 

"  7  years.  ,  ,  . 

MT  Shesuan,  thought  7  years  too  long.  He  grounded  his  opposi- 
tion he  said  on  the  principle  that  if  they  did  their  duty  well,  they 
would  be  reelected.    And  if  they  acted  amiss,  an  earlier  opportunity 


» In  the  transcript  the  vote  read*:  "  Massachusetts,  New  York,  New  Jersey, 
PennsyWanla.  Delaware.  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye— 10;  Connecticut,  no— 1."  .    .^     ^         _,  . 

■  The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Maryand^aye-1;  MassachujetU. 
Connecticut    '         VoA,  New  Jersey.  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North 

''""^'tt  V.    '   .iprth'e^^t^^tkdsr-Massachu^tU.  Conne<rtic«t,  New  Jerjey. 

Pennsylvania.  Delawkre.  VirginU.  NoHh  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye-8;  New 

York.'Gforiria,  no — 2:  Maryland,  divided."  ,  ,     ^.     ^  i  *  #  _ 

•tC  words  "th^  fifth  Resolution"  are  aubstituted  in  the  transcript  for 

""^Mn  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut.  New  Jersey,  Pi^nsylTOnia, 
•ye— 3;  Massachusetts.  New  York,  DeUware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  South  Caro- 
lina, no— 6;  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  divided."  v  i.  u  __- »i„.-i. 
'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Massachusetts.  New  York.  Pennsylvanw, 
Maryland,  VirginU,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye-T;  Connecticut,  New 
Jersey,  Delaware,  Georgia,  no— 4." 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  12,  1787 


95 


should  be  allowed  for  getting  rid  of  them.    He  preferred  5  yean 
which  w?  be  between  the  terms  of  *  1!*  branch  &  of  the  executive 

W.  Pierce  proposed  3  years.  7  years  would  raise  an  alarm. 
Great  mischiefs  had'  arisen  in  England  from  their  septennial  act 
which  was  reprobated  by  most  of  their  patriotic  Statesmen. 

M'.  Randolph  was  for  the  term  of  7  years.  The  democratic 
licentiousness  of  the  State  Legislatures  proved  the  necessity  of  a  firm 
Senate.  The  object  of  this  2f  branch  is  to  controul  the  democratic 
branch  of  the  Nat'  Legislature.  If  it  be  not  a  firm  body,  the  other 
branch  being  more  numerous,  and  coming  immediately  from  the 
people,  will  overwhelm  it.  The  Senate  of  Maryland  constituted  on 
like  principles  had  been  scarcely  able  to  stem  the  popular  torrent. 
No  mischief  can  be  apprehended,  as  the  concurrence  of  the  other 
branch,  and  in  some  measure,  of  the  Executive,  will  in  all  cases  be 
necessary.  A  firmness  &  independence  may  be  the  more  necessary 
also  in  this  branch,  as  it  ought  to  guard  the  Constitution  ag!'  encroach- 
ments of  the  Executive  who  will  be  apt  to  form  combinations  with  the 
demagogues  of  the  popular  branch. 

M;  Madison,  considered  7  years  as  a  term  by  no  means  too  long. 
What  we  wished  was  to  give  to  the  Gtov^  that  stability  which  was 
every  where  called  for,  and  which  the  Enemies  of  the  Republican  form 
alledged  to  be  inconsistent  with  its  nature.  He  was  not  afraid  of 
giving  too  much  stability  by  the  term  of  Seven  years.  His  fear  was 
that  the  popular  branch  would  still  be  too  great  an  overmatch  for  it. 
It  was  to  be  much  lamented  that  we  had  so  little  direct  experience 
to  guide  us.  The  Constitution  of  Maryland  was  the  only  one  that 
bore  any  analogy  to  this  part  of  the  plan.  In  no  instance  had  the 
Senate  of  Mary^  created  just  suspicions  of  danger  from  it.  In  some 
instances  perhaps  it  may  have  erred  by  yielding  to  the  H.  of  Delegates. 
In  every  instance  of  their  opposition  to  the  measures  of  the  H.  of  D. 
they  had  had  with  them  the  suffrages  of  the  most  enlightened  and 
impartial  people  of  the  other  States  as  well  as  of  their  own.  In 
the  States  where  the  Senates  were  chosen  in  the  same  manner  as  the 
other  branches,  of  the  Legislature,  and  held  their  seats  for  4  years, 
the  institution  was  found  to  be  no  check  whatever  ag!'  the  instar 
bilities  of  the  other  branches.  He  conceived  it  to  be  of  great  impor- 
tance that  a  stable  &  firm  Gov!  organized  in  the  republican  form 
shoidd  be  held  out  to  the  people.  If  this  be  not  done,  and  the  people 
be  left  to  judge  of  this  species  of  Govt  by  y?  operations  of  the  de- 
fective systems  under  which  they  now  live,  it  is  much  to  be  feared 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  have  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  had." 


06      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

the  time  i.  not  distant  when,  in  univeml  disgust  they  '"J  ""^^^ 
the  blessing  which  they  have  purchased  at  so  dear  a  rate,  and  be 
ready  for  any  change  that  may  be  proposed  t.  them. 

On  the  question  for  "  seven  years  "  as  the  term  for  the  2?  branA 
Ma»?  divided  (Mr  King.  M.  Ghorum  ay-Mt  Gerry.  Mr  Strong  no) 
ConJno.    N.Y.  div-    N.  J.  ay.    Pf  ay    Delay.    M?  ay.    \ .  ay. 

N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.*  *  ♦!.„  o« 

Ml  Butler  &  Mi  Rutudoe  proposed  that  the  members  of  the  f 
branch  should  be  entitled  to  no  salary  or  compensation  for  thexp 
services    On  the  question,*  .^ 

^iSsfdiV!   ConUy.   N.Y.no.  N.J.  no.   P.  no.   DeLay.   Mine. 
V»no    N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay.   Geo.no.» 

*  It  was  then  moved  &  agreed  that  the  clauses  respecting  the 
stipends  &  ineligibility  of  the  2-  branch  be  the  same  as,  of  the  1 
branch:  Con:  disagreeing  to  the  ineligibility. 

It  was  moved  &  2«  to  alter  Resol:  9.*  so  as  to  read  that  the 
jurisdiction  of  the  supreme  tribunal  shall  be  to  hear  &  determine  in 
the  dernier  resort,  all  piracies,  felonies  &c.''  -  . ,    .^.  „„  ♦!,« 

It  was  moved  &  2--  to  strike  out  "  all  piracies  &  felonies  on  the 
high  seas,"  which  was  agreed  to.  ,   .,       _      .         „  .„^„  m 

It  was  moved  &  agreed  to  strike  out "  d  captures  *«>°| »  J*^' 

It  was  moved  &  agreed  to  strike  out  "  other  States  and  insert 
"  two  distinct  States  of  the  Union  "  . ,      ^      ..»  tj„« 

It  was  moved  &  agreed  to  postpone  the  consideration  of  Reso- 
lution 9,*  relating  to  the  Judiciary : 

The  Com?  then  rose  &  the  House  adjourned 


Wednesdat  June  13.  m  Committee  of  the  whole 

Resol:  9*  being  resumed  v     •     •  j-  *•-«  «*  ii,. 

The  latter  parts  of  the  clause  relating  to  the  jurisdiction  of  the 

states]  .  .    , 

ThU  note  for  the  bottom  margin.'         _^.— 

Mr.  Strong,  nol  New  York,  divided." 

•  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  t"*  t"-^*^,,,^^,  South  Carolin.. 

ayelJ;  ^^VVT^yfe^^Se^-s^rPe^^^^^^^  ^''^"'-  ^-*''  ^"''■ 

'''\^^l'^rZ^\i:'n^''^:^^t^"'ir.  «xb.tituted  in  the  transcript  for 
''EeBol:  P." 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  JUNE  13,  1787 


97 


Nats  tribunal,  was  struck  out  nem.  con  in  order  to  leave  full  room 
for  their  organization. 

MI  Randolph  &  Mi  Macisom,  then  moved  the  following  resolution 
respecting  a  National  Judiciary,  vi«  "that  the  jurisdiction  of  the 
National  Judiciary  shall  extend  to  cases,  which  respect  the  collection 
of  the  national  revenue,  impeachments  of  any  national  ofBcers,  and 
questions  which  involve  the  national  peace  and  harmony  "  which  was 

agreed  to.  .       v         j   n 

MI  PiNKNEY  &  MI  Sherman  moved  to  insert  after  the  words  one 
supreme  tribunal  "  the  words  "  the  Judges  of  which  to  be  appointed 
by  the  national  Legislature." 

M'.  Madbon,  objected  to  an  app?  by  the  whole  Legislature.  Many 
of  them  were»  incompetent  Judges  of  the  requisite  qualifications. 
They  were  too  much  influsnced  by  their  partialities.  The  candidate 
who  was  present,  who  had  displayed  a  talent  for  business  in  the  legis- 
lative field,  who  had  perhaps  assisted  ignorant  members  m  business  of 
their  own,  or  of  their  Constituents,  or  used  other  winning  means, 
would  without  any  of  the  essential  qualifications  for  an  expomtor  of  the 
laws  prevaa  over  s  competitor  not  having  these  recommendations,  but 
possessed  of  every  necessary  accomplishment  He  proposed  that  the 
appointinent  should  be  made  by  the  Senate,  which  as  a  less  numerous 
&  more  select  body,  would  be  moiti  competent  judges,  and  which  was 
sufBciently  numerous  to  justify  such  a  confidence  in  them. 

M'.  Shabm AN  ft  MI  PiNKNEY  withdrew  their  motion,  and  the  app. 
by  the  Senate  was  agl  to  nem.  con. 

m  Gerbt.  moved  to  restrain  the  Senatorial  branch  from  originating 
money  bills.  The  other  branch  was  more  immediately  the  representa- 
tives of  the  people,  and  it  was  a  maxim  that  the  people  ought  to  hold 
the  purse-strings.  If  the  Senate  should  be  allowed  to  originate  such 
bills,  they  w*  repeat  the  experiment,  till  chance  should  furnish  a 
sett  of  representatives  in  tiie  other  branch  who  will  fall  into  their 

snares. 

MI  BtJTLEB  saw  no  reason  for  such  a  discrimination.  We  were 
always  following  the  British  Constitution  when  the  reason  of  it  did 
not  apply.  There  was  no  analogy  between  the  H.  of  Lords  and  the 
body  proposed  to  be  established.  If  the  Senate  should  be  degraded  by 
any  such  discriminations,  the  best  men  would  be  apt  to  decline  serving 
in  it  in  favor  of  the  of ler  branch.  And  it  will  lead  the  latter  mto 
the  practice  of  tacking  other  clauses  to  money  bills. 

m  Madison  observed  that  the  Commentators  on  the  Brit:  Const: 


■  The  word  "  are  "  is  gubstituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  were." 


98      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

had  not  yet  agreed  on  the  reaK)n  of  the  rcrtriction  on  the  H.  of  L.  in 
money  bilU.  Certain  it  was  there  could  be  no  similar  reason  in  the 
ease  before  us.  The  Senate  would  bo  the  representatives  of  the  people 
as  well  as  the  1?'  branch.  If  they  ^  have  any  dangerous  influence 
over  it,  they  would  easily  prevail  on  some  member  of  the  latter  to 
originate  tho  bUl  they  wished  to  be  passed.  As  the  Senate  would  be 
generally  a  more  capable  sett  of  men,  it  w1  be  wrong  to  disable  them 
from  any  preparation  of  the  business,  especiaUy  of  that  which  was 
most  important,  and  in  our  republics,  worse  prepared  than  any  other. 
The  Gentleman  in  pursuance  of  his  principle  ouj^t  to  carry  the  re- 
straint to  the  amendment,  as  well  as  the  originating  of  money  bills, 
since,  an  addition  of  a  given  sum  w^  be  equivalent  to  a  distinct  proposi- 
tion of  it.  ,  , 
Mr  Kma  differed  from  W.  Oerbt,  and  concurred  in  the  objections 

to  the  proposition. 

MT  Bead  favored  the  proposition,  but  would  not  extend  the  re- 
straint to  the  case  of  amendments. 

M^  PiNKNEY  thinks  the  question  premature.  If  the  Senate  sh? 
be  formed  on  the  same  proportional  representation  as  it  stands  at 
present,  they  tfi  have  equal  power,  otherwise  if  a  different  principle 
8^  be  introduced. 

SK  Sherman.  As  both  branches  must  concur,  there  can  be  no 
danger  whichever  way  the  Senate*  be  formed.  We  establish  two 
branches  in  order  to  get  more  wisdom,  which  is  particularly  needed 
in  the  finance  business— The  Senate  bear  their  share  of  the  taxes,  and 
are  also  the  representatives  of  the  people.  What  a  man  does  by 
another,  he  does  by  himself  is  a  maxim.  In  Con*  both  branches  can 
originate  in  all  cases,  and  it  has  been  found  safe  &  convenient.  What- 
ever might  have  been  the  reason  of  the  rule  as  to  The  H.  of  Lords, 
it  is  clear  that  no  good  arises  from  it  now  even  there. 

Gen?  PiNKNBT.  This  distinction  prevails  in  S.  C.  &  has  been  a 
source  of  pernicious  disputes  between  y1  2  branches.  The  Constitu- 
tion is  now  evaded,  by  informal  schedules  of  amendments  handed 
from  yf  Senate  to  the  other  House. 

an  WiLLUMSON  wishes  for  a  question  chiefly  to  prevent  re-dis- 
cussion. The  restriction  will  have  one  advantage,  it  will  oblige 
some  member  in'  lower  branch  to  move,  &  people  can  then  mark 
him. 

On  the  question  for  excepting  money  bills  as  propi  by  MS  Gerry, 


*  The  word  "  may  "  is  here  iuierted  in  the  tranicript. 
•The  word  "the"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JUNE  13.  1787 
no.    Con^  no.    N.  Y.  ay.    N.  J.  no.    Del.  ay.    M" 


no. 


99 
V!ay. 


Haa.  no.    Con^  no.    N.  Y.  ay. 
N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  no.   Geo.  no.» 

» Committee  rose  &  M^  Qhobum  made  report,  which  waa  portponed 
till  tomorrow,  to  give  an  opportunity  for  other  plana  to  be  propowd. 
The  report  waa  in  the  worda  following: 

BePOBT  of  the  COMMriTEE  OF  WHOLE  ON  W.  BaNDOLFH'B 

Pbopositionb  • 

1.  Be<1  that  it  is  the  opinion  of  this  Committee  that  a  National 
Oovemm^  ought  to  be  establiahed,  consirting  of  a  supreme  Legula- 
tive.  Executive  &  Judiciary.  ._.    .  *   ^ 

2.  Beaol?  that  the  National  Legialatur©  ought  to  conaut  of  two 

3  BeB*  that  the  membera  of  the  flrrt  branch  of  the  National  Legis- 
lature ought  to  be  elected  by  the  people  of  the  several  Statea  for  the 
term  of  three  years,  to  receive  fixed  Stipends  by  which  they  may  be 
compensated  for  the  devotion  of  their  time  to »  public  service,  to  be 
paid  out  of  the  National  Treasury :  to  be  inehgible  to  any  office  wUb- 
fished  by  a  particular  State,  or  under  the  authority  of  *»«  U.  States, 
(except  those  peculiarly  belonging  to  the  functions  of  the  flrit 
branch),  during  the  term  of  service,  and  under  the  national  Govern- 
ment for  the  space  of  one  year  after  ito  expiration.        . ,  ^,  ,     . 

4  Bes?  that  the  members  of  the  second  branch  of  the  Nat'  Legis- 
lature ought  to  be  chosen  by  the  individual  Legislatures,  to  be  of  the 
age  of  30  years  at  least,  to  hold  their  offices  for  a  term  sufficient  to 
ensure  their  independency,*  namely,  seven  years,  to  receive  toed 
stipends  by  which  they  may  be  compensated  for  the  devotion  of  their 
time  to » public  service  to  be  paid  out  of  the  Natoonal  Treasury ;  to  be 
ineligible  to  any  office  established  by  a  particular  State,  or  under  the 
authority  of  the  D.  States,  (except  those  pecubarly  belonging  to  the 
functions  of  the  second  branch)  during  the  term  of  service,  and  under 
the  Nat?  Gov.*  for  the  space  of  one  year  after  its  expiration. 

5.  Res?  that  each  branch  ought  to  possess  the  right  of  originating 

6.  Red  that  the  Nati  Legislature  ought  to  be  empowered  to  enjoy 
the  Legislative  righta  vested  in  Cong!  by  the  Confederation,  and 
moreover  to  legislate  in  all  cases  to  which  the  separate  States  are 
incompetent;  or  in  which  the  hanaony  of  the  U.  S.  may  be  inter- 
rupted by  the  exereise  of  individual  legislation;  to  negative  ail  laws 
passed  by  the  several  States  contravening  in  the  opinion  of  the 
National  Legislature  the  articles  of  Union,  or  any  treaties  subsisting 
under  the  authority  of  the  Union. 

« In  the  tranicrlpt  the  vote  read.:  "New  York.  Delaware.  7»'«'nJ»- »y?r;^ 
Maeaachueettg.  Connktlcut,  New  Jersey.  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  South  Caf«- 
iina,  Georgia  no — 7."  ,  ,  . 

•  The  word  "  the  "  li  here  inaerted  In  the  transcript. 

•  Thig  heading  is  omitted  in  the  trangcript.  „  ,    *v,  *^„^i«* 
•The  word  "Independency"  U  changed  to  "independence"  in  the  tranacnpt. 


100      DEBATB8  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

7.  Re«?  that  the  righta  of  raffrage  in  the  l?  branch  of  the  National 
Legialatare,  ought  not  to  be  according  to  the  rule  catabliahed  in  the 
articlet  of  confederation  but  according  to  some  equitable  ratio  of 
repraentation,  name^,  in  proportion  to  the  whole  number  of  white 
&  other  free  citixena  &  inhabit«nti,  of  every  age  aex  and  condition, 
including  thoee  bound  to  lervitude  for  a  term  of  yean,  ft  three  flftha 
of  all  other  perwns,  not  comprehended  in  the  foregoing  deacription, 
except  Indiana  not  paying  taxea  in  each  SUtej  ^    «  .u 

8.  Reaolved  that  the  right  of  suffrage  in  the  21  branch  of  the 
National  Legiilature  ought  to  be  according  to  the  rule  catabliahed  for 

9.  Reaolved  that  a  National  Executive  be  inatitnted  to  conaiat  of  a 
aingle  penon,  to  be  choaen  by  the  Nati?  Legialature  for  the  term  of 
aeven  yean,  with  power  to  carry  into  execution  the  national  laws,  to 
appoint  to  oflBcea  in  caaea  not  otherwiae  provided  for— to  be  ineligible 
a  aecond  time,  ft  to  be  removeable  on  impeachment  and  conviction  of 
malpracticea  or  neglect  of  duty— to  receive  a  fixed  stipend  by  which 
he  may  be  compenaated  for  the  devotion  of  hia  time  to  ^  pablie  aemea 
to  be  paid  out  of  the  national  Treaauiy. 

10.  Reaol^  that  the  Nat'  Executive  ahall  have  a  right  to  negative 
any  Legialative  Act,  which  ahall  not  be  afterwarda  pasaed  nnleaa »  by 
two  thirda  of  each  branch  of  the  National  Legialature. 

11.  ReaoH  that  a  Nat!  Judiciary  be  establiahed,  to  conaiat  of  one 
Bupreme  tribunal,  the  Judges  of  which  to»  be  appointed  by  the  2? 
branch  of  the  Nat'  Legislature,  to  hold  their  offices  during  good  be- 
haviour,  ft  to  receive  punctually  at  atated  times  a  fixed  compensation 
for  their  services,  in  which  no  increaae  or  diminution  shall  be  made, 
so  aa  to  affect  the  persona  actually  in  office  at  the  time  of  such  increaae 
or  diminution.  . 

12.  Resol*  that  the  Nat?  Legislature  be  empowered  to  appoint 
inferior  Tribunals. 

13.  Res?  that  the  juriadiction  of  the  Nat'  Judiciary  shall  extend 
to  all  caaea  which  reapect  the  collection  of  the  Nat?  revenue,  impeach- 
ments  of  any  Nat'  Officen,  and  queations  which  involve  the  national 
peace  ft  harmony.  ,    .   . 

14.  Res^  that  provision  ought  to  be  made  for  the  admission  of 
States  lawfully  arising  within  the  limita  of  the  U.  States,  whether 
from  a  voluntary  junction  of  Government  ft  territory  or  otherwise, 
with  the  consent  of  s  number  of  voices  in  the  Nat?  Legislature  less 
than  the  whole.  . 

15.  Real  that  provision  ought  to  be  made  for  the  continuance  of 
Congress  and  their  authorities  and  privileges  untill  a  pven  day  after 
the  reform  of  the  articles  of  Union  shall  be  adopted  and  for  the  com- 
pletion of  all  their  engagements. 

16.  Resi  that  a  Republican  Constitution  ft  its  existing  laws  ought 
to  be  guaranteed  to  each  State  by  the  U.  States. 


•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  Inwrted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  unless  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  shall "  is  tubstitoted  in  the  transcript  for  "  to. 


SESSION  OP  THTJBSDAT,  JUNE  14,  1787 


Id 


17  Rrt*  thtt  proviiion  ought  to  be  nude  for  the  Miiendinent  of  the 
Articlee  of  Union  whensoever  it  shiOl  leein  nteeeeenr. 

18  Ree«  that  the  LegiilatiTe,  Executive  4  Judiciary  powen  within 
the  ieYeral  States  ought  to  be  bound  by  oath  to  ropport  the  artlcM 

*  19  Rm<  that  the  amendmenta  which  thall  be  offered  to  the  con- 
fedemlon  by  the  Convention  ought  at  a  proper  tiine  or  *»»«••"" 
the  approbation  of  Cong?  to  be  lubmitted  to  an  Aieemb  y  or  AMembhee 
recommended  by  the  leveral  LegiaUturea  to  be  expreialy  choeen  by  the 
people  to  consider  and  decide  thereon. 


THTJKBDiT  JUNI  14.     Ih  CONVUmOM  * 

Mt  Pattdmon,  observed  to  the  Convention  that  it  was  the  wish 
of  several  deputations,  particularly  that  of  N.  Jersey,  that  further  time 
might  be  aUowed  them  to  contemplate  the  plan  reported  from  the 
Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  to  digest  one  purely  federal,  and  contra- 
distinguished  from  the  reported  plan.  He  said  they  hoped  to  have 
such  an  one  ready  by  tomorrow  to  be  laid  before  the  Convention: 
And  the  Convention  adjourned  that  leisure  might  be  given  for  the 
purpoae. 


Pbidat  Jdnb  15T«  1787.» 

» W.  PAiTiasoN,  laid  before  the  Convention  the  plan  which  he  said 
several  of  the  depuUtions  wished  to  be  substituted  in  place  of  that 
propoeed  by  MT  Randolph.  After  some  little  discussion  of  the  most 
proper  mode  of  giving  it  a  fair  deliberation  it  was  agreed  that  it 
should  be  referred  to  a  Committee  of  the  whole,  and  that  in  order 
to  place  the  two  plans  in  due  comparison,  the  other  should  be  recom- 
mitted. At  the  eamart  desire*  of  W  Lansing  ft  some  other  gentle- 
men  it  was  also  agreed  that  the  Convention  should  not  go  into 
Committee  of  the  whole  on  the  subject  till  tomorrow,  by  which  delay 
the  friends  of  the  plan  proposed  by  M'.  Patterson  w«  be  better  pre- 
pared  to  explain  ft  support  it,  and  all  would  have  an  opportu?  of 
taking  copies.* 

fthls  pUm  h*d  htm  wmcwted  wnoiiR  the  J«Pnt«««"  °^J»•"*"•Jl|•!!f^|; 
froJcon«  iF  Y.  N^^J.  D.1.  and  perh.pt  M;  Martin  from  Mary-  who  mad*  with 


■  The  wordi  "  In  Convention  "  are  crowed  ont  in  the  tranacript. 

•  The  Tear  "  1787  "  i«  omitted  in  the  traneoript.  .     „^,„. 

•  The  Words  "  In  Convention  "  are  here  injerted  in  *J»«  tj^^'P*-    „ 

•  The  word  "  requeit "  ia  tubrtituted  In  the  tranicript  for     deelre. 


PROVINCIAL  LIBRARY, 
VICTORIA.  B.  C. 


102      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

The  propoaitiona  from  N.  Jtney  inoved  by  M'.  Pattenon  wtrt 
in  the  worda  fdlowiog. 

1.  Real  that  the  articlea  of  Confederation  ought  to  be  m  reviaed, 
corrected  &  enlarged,  as  to  render  the  federal  Conititution  adequate 
to  the  exigenciea  of  Ctovemment,  ft  the  preaenration  of  the  Union. 

2.  Rm4  that  in  addition  to  the  powera  vetted  in  the  V.  Htatea  in 
CongreM,  by  the  prewnt  exiating  artielcfl  of  Confederation,  they  b« 
authorized  to  paaa  acta  for  raining  a  revenue,  by  levying  a  duty  or 
duties  on  all  goods  or  merchandizes  of  foreign  growth  or  manufacture, 
imported  into  any  part  of  the  U,  States,  by  Stamps  on  paper,  vellum 
or  panhment,  and  by  a  •  «tage  on  all  lettert  or  package!  paiaing 
through  the  general  post-Oi.ice,  to  be  applied  to  such  federal  purposea 
as  they  shall  deem  proper  ft  expedient ;  to  make  rules  &  regulationi 
for  the  collection  thereof;  and  the  same  from  time  to  time,  to  alter 
ft  amend  in  such  manner  as  they  shall  think  proper:  to  paaa  Acts  for 
the  regulation  of  trade  &  commerce  aa  well  with  foreign  nationa  aa 
with  each  other:  provided  that  all  puniahmentn.  fines,  forfeitUirea  ft 
penalties  to  be  incurred  for  contravening  such  acts  rules  and  regulft* 
tiona  shall  be  adjudged  by  the  Common  law  Judiciariea  of  the  State 
in  which  any  offence  contrary  to  the  true  intent  &  meaning  of  auch 
Acts  rules  &  regulations  shall  have  been  committed  or  perpetrated, 
with  liberty  of  commencing  in  the  first  instance  all  suits  &  proaecutiona 
for  that  purpose  in  the  superior  common  law  Judiciary  in  auch  State, 
subject  nevertheless,  for  the  correction  of  all  errors,  both  in  law  ft 
fact  in  rendering  Judgment,  to  an  appeal  to  the  Judiciary  of  the 
U.  States. 

3.  Res'!  that  whenever  requiaitiona  ahall  be  necessary,  instead  of 
the  rule  for  making  requisitions  mentioned  in  the  articles  of  Con> 
federation,  the  United  Statea  in  Cong!  be  authorized  to  make  such 
requisitions  in  proportion  to  the  whole  number  of  white  ft  other  free 
citizens  &  inhabitants  of  every  age  sex  and  condition  including  thoae 
bound  to  servitude  for  a  term  of  yean  ft  three  fifths  of  all  other 

them  •  cutnmon  esuae  *  on  different  priaeiplet.  Cont  ft  N.  T.  were  sgM  a  depar- 
ture from  the  principle  of  the  Confederstlon,  wiehing  rather  to  add  a  few  new 
puwerit  tu  Cons;  than  to  eubetituU,  a  Xational  Govt  The  State*  of  X.  J.  k  Dal. 
were  oppoied  to  a  National  Got*  becaua*  it*  patroni  coniidered  a  proportloml 
reprrK-ntation  of  the  States  aa  the  basi*  of  it.  The  eagourncM  dinpfayed  hj  th* 
membera  opposed  to  a  Nat>  Qov*  from  these  different  motives  began  now  to  pro- 
duce serious  anxiety  for  the  result  of  the  Convention.  M;  Diclcenson  said  to 
M'  Madison — Yon  see  the  consequence  of  pushing  thing*  too  far.  Some  of  tha 
members  from  the  small  State*  wish  for  two  branches  in  the  General  Legis- 
lature, and  are  friends  to  a  good  National  Government;  but  we  would  sooner 
submit  to  a  foreign  power,  than  submit  to  be  deprived  of  an  equalitv  of  suffrage,* 
In  both  branches  of  the  legislature,  and  thereby  be  thrown  under  the  dominauoa 
of  the  large  States.] 

*  The  note  in  brackets  for  the  margin.* 


•  The  word  "  though  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

■  The  phrase  "  of  an  equality  of  suffrage "  is  transposed  so  that  the  tran- 
script read«  "  deprived,  in  ttoth  branches  of  the  legislature  of  an  equality  of 
suffrage,  and  thereby  "... 

■  Madison'*  direction  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  FBIDAT,  JUNE  16,  1787 


108 


pnMHM  not  comprehended  In  the  fo-egolng  deKription.  «»<»?»  In- 
diani  not  payUiff  fxt»  j  th»t  if  »ach  re  4tti«tion»  be  not  complied  with, 
in  the  time  epecifled  therein,  to  direct  the  collection  thereof  in  the 
tton  complylnf  SUtee  4  f'^r  that  purpoee  to  deviM  "nd  pMe  wti 
directing  4  »uthori«inf  the  ewne;  provided  that  none  of  the  power, 
hereby  veeted  in  the  U.  BUtee  in  Cong?  ehall  be  exercwed  without  the 
ooment  of  »t  leMt  SUtee,  «nd  in  th»t  proportion  if  the  nam- 

ber  of  Confederated  SUte»  «hould  hereafter  be  increaeed  or  dimlnwhed. 
4  Reel  that  the  U.  SUtea  in  Cong",  be  authoriaed  to  elect  a 
federal  Executive  to  coniiet  of  perwina,  to  continue  m  office 

for  the  terra  of  yeare,  to  receive  punctually  at  itated  tlmee  a 

flxetl  compeniation  for  their  eervicea,  in  which  no  inerMM  or  diminu- 
tion ihali  be  made  ao  aa  to  affect  the  per«>n8  compoaing  the  Executive 
at  the  time  of  euch  increaae  or  diminution,  to  be  paid  outof  the 
federal  treaauryj  to  be  incapable  of  holding  any  other  office  ot 
appointment  during  their  time  of  aervice  and  for  yewa  ther^ 

after;  to  be  ineligible  a  aecond  time,  4  removeable  by  Cong?  on 
application  by  a  majority  of  the  Execntivea  of  the  ••v«f«J«*t"; 
that  the  Bweutivea*  beaidea  their  general  aothcH^ty  to  execute  the 
federal  acta  ought  to  appoint  aU  federal  offlcera  not  otherwiee  pro- 
vided for,  4  to  direct  M  military  operationa;  provided  that  none 
of  the  peraor  compoaing  the  federal  Executive  shall  on  any  occaaion 
take  commas.,  .i  toj  troope,  ao  aa  peiwmally  to  conduct  any  enter- 
priae  aa  Qen»   a  or  in  other  capaci^.  . ..  ^   .  .  j_»    «  - 

6  Be*<  that  a  federal  Judiciary  be  eataWiahed  to  comiit  of  a 
aupreme  Tribunal  the  Judgea  of  which  to  be  •\ppointed  by  the  Execu- 
tive. 4  to  hold  their  offlcea  during  good  behaviour,  to  receive  punc- 
tually at  Btated  timee  a  fixed  compenaaUon  for  their  eervicea  in  which 
no  increaae  or  diminution  ahall  be  made,  ao  aa  to  affect  the  Vt)nmM 
actually  in  office  at  the  time  of  auch  increaae  or  diminution ;  that  the 
Judiciary  ao  eaUbliahed  ahall  have  authoritar  to  hear  4  determine  in 
the  flrat  instance  on  all  impeachmenta  of  federal  offlcera,  4  by  way  ot 
appeal  in  the  dernier  reaort  in  all  casea  touching  the  nghta  of  An^ 
baaaadora,  in  all  caeea  of  capturea  from  an  enemy,  in  all  ca«a  ol 
piraciea  4  feloniea  on  the  hij^  Seaa,  in  aU  caaes  in  which  foreignera 
may  be  interested,  in  the  conatruction  of  any  treaty  or  treaties,  or 
which  may  ariae  on  any  of  the  Acta  tM*  regulation  of  trade,  or 
the  coUection  of  the  federal  Revenue:  that  none  of  the  Judiciary 
ahall  during  the  time  they  remain  in  office  be  capable  of  receiving 
or  holding  any  other  ofBce  or  appointment  during  their  time*  ot 

service,  or  for  thereafter.  .     «      .       j    i «_t„^ 

6.  Real  that  all  Acta  of  the  U.  States  m  Cong!  made  by  virtue 
4  in  pursuance  of  the  powers  hereby  4  by  the  article  of  Confedera- 
tion vested  in  them,  and  all  Treatiea  made  4  ratified  under  the 
authority  of  the  U.  Statea  shall  be  the  supremo  law  of  the  respective 


'  The  towKTlpt  uMt  tlw  word  "  Execntltw"  ta  tlie  ringutar. 

•  Tbe  word  "  military  "  is  here  inierted  in  the  tr«i>«cript. 
•The  word  "the"  ii  here  inserted  in  the  trmnecript.  ^ 

♦  The  word  "  term  "  i«  tubetituted  in  the  tnuMcript  for    tlaw. 


104      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

States  80  far  forth  as  those  Acts  or  Treaties  shall  relate  to  the  said 
States  or  their  Citizens,  and  that  the  Judiciary  of  the  several  States 
shall  be  bound  thereby  in  their  decisions,  any  thing  in  the  respective 
laws  of  the  Individual  State*  to  the  contrary  notwithstanding;  and 
that  if  any  State,  or  any  body  of  men  in  any  State  shall  oppoae 
or  prevent  y?  carrying  into  execution  such  acts  or  treaties,  the  federal 
Executive  shall  be  authorized  to  call  forth  y?  power  of  the  Con- 
federated States,  or  so  much  thereof  as  may  be  necessary  to  enforce 
and  compel  an  obedience  to  such  Acts,  or  an  observance  of  such 

Treaties.  ...       ,   .    •        «  a*  *^ 

7.  Re^  that  provision  be  made  for  the  admission  of  new  states 

into  the  Union.  ,        .    ^, 

8.  Res? » the  rule  for  naturalization  ought  to  be  the  same  in  every 

State.  -         ■ 

9.  Resl  that  a  Citizen  of  one  State  committmg  an  ottence  m 
another  State  of  the  Union,  shall  be  deemed  guilty  of  the  same  oflfence 
as  if  it  had  been  committed  by  a  Citizen  of  the  State  in  which  the 
offence  was  committed.* 

Adjourned. 


Saturday  June  16. 


Ik  CoMUITTEE  op  the  whole  on  *  RBBOLtmONS 

PROPOs?  BY  M?  p.  &  M?  R 

in  Lansing  called  for  the  reading  of  the  If  resolntion  of  each 
plan,  which  he  considered  as  involving  principles  directly  in  contrast ; 
that  of  ST.  Patterson  says  he  sustains  the  sovereignty  of  the  respective 
States,  that  of  M?  Randolph  distroys  it:  the  latter  requires  a  negative 
on  all  the  laws  of  the  particular  States;  the  former,  only  certain 
general  powers  for  the  general  good.  The  plan  of  BR  B.  in  short 
absorbs  all  power  except  what  may  be  exercised  in  the  little  local 
matters  of  the  States  which  are  not  objects  worthy  of  the  supreme 
cognizance.  He  grounded  his  preference  of  Mt  P.'s  plan,  chiefly  on 
two  objections  ag!*  *  that  of  IP  R.  1.*  want  of  power  in  the  Con- 
vention to  discuss  &  propose  it    2*  the  improbability  of  its  being 

•  This  copy  of  Mj  Pattenon's  proposition*  varies  in  a  few  elanBea  from  that 
in  the  printed  Journal  fnrniRhed  from  the  papers  of  "Mr,  Brearley  a  Colleague  of 
Mt  Patterson.  A  confidence  is  felt,  notwithstanding,  in  its  accuracy.  That  the 
copy  in  the  Journal  is  not  entirely  correct  in  shewn  by  the  ensuing  speech  of 
Mr  Wilson  [June  18]  in  which  he  refers  to  the  mode  of  removing  the  Executive 
by  impeachment  t  conviction  as  a  feature  in  the  Virs*  plan  forming  one  of  its 
contrasts  to  that  of  M'  Patterson,  which  proposed  a  removal  on  the  application 
of  a  majority  of  the  Executives  of  the  States.  In  the  copy  printed  in  the 
Jcurual,  the  two  modes  are  combined  in  the  same  clause;  whether  through  inad- 
Tcrt~T>ce,  or  as  a  contemplated  amendment  does  not  appear. 

•  The  word  "  that "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  to  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  apt " 

•  The  figures  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  first "  and  "  secondly  "  in  the 
transcript. 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  16,  1787 


105 


adopted  1.  He  wa«  decidedly  o£  opinion  that  the  power  of  the 
Co^ention  was  rertrained  to  amendments  of  a  federal  nature,  and 
haZ  for  their  basis  the  Conf.  .racy  in  being.  The  Act  of  Congress 
The  tenor  of  the  Acts  of  the  States,  the  Commissions  produced  by  the 
Lral  deputations  aU  proved  this.  And  this  IJutation  of  the  ^we 
to  an  amendment  of  the  Confederacy,  marked  the  opuuon  of  ^he 
States  that  it  was  unnecessary  &  improper  to  go  farther.  He  was 
^rtkaTthis  was  the  case  with  hi.  State.    N.  York  would  never  have 

concurred  in  sending  deputies  to  the  '»™^°'>'  ^  *«^fgS' 
posed  the  deliberations  were  to  turn  on  »  consolidation  of  the  States, 
and  a  National  Government. 

2    w«  it  probable  that  the  States  would  adopt  &  ratify  a  scheme, 
which  they  had  never  authorized  us  to  propose!  and  which  so  far 
r^Sd^ihat  they  regarded  as  «ifficientt    We  see  by  their  several 
AcU  pVrSirly  in^^on  to  the  plan  of  f^e'^^V^      wha^ 
Cong,  in  1783,  not  authorixed  by  the  Articles  of  Confederation^  what 
we^the  ideas  they  then  entertained.    Can  so  great  a  change  be  aup- 
p^d  to  have  alr^dy  taken  place.    To  rely  on  any  change  which  is 
Wter  to  tak^Jace  in  the  sentiments  of  the  people  wo^d  be  trusts 
fngto  tJo  g«^  Jn  uncert«nty.    We  know  only  what  their  present 
Snt^«Si^   And  it  is  in  vain  to  propose  what  wUl  not  accord 
TtHrl^e  Stato.  wai  never  feel  a  sufficient  confidence  ma 
general  Government  to  give  it  a  negative  on  fteir  la^.     The 
Li.«™a  i.  itself  totally  novel.     There  m  no  parallel  to  it  to  oe 
S    Siel^LriS  of  Congress  U  familiar  to  the  people,  and  an 
ICentSon  of  the ^er.  of  Congress  wiU  be  readily  approved  by 

^^W  PATTiaBWH.  said  as  he  had  on  8  former  occasion  given  his 
sentfm<Ii^rTe'pl»  propo«^  by  M,  R.  1»  would -w^.^^^^^^ 
repetition  as  much  as  possible  give  his  reasons  in  favor  ««  that  pro. 
p,^ed  by  himself.  He  preferred  it  because  it  accorded  l.»  with  the 
J^trs  of  the  Convention.  2  ^  with  the  sentime^  of  the  p^p^^  H 
the  confederacy  was  radicaUy  wrong,  let  us  return  to  our  States, 
ind TtaSSSr  powers,  not  assume  them  of  ourselves.  I  came  here 
not  to  ^ak  my  0^  sentiments,  but  the  sentiment,  ofthose  who  sen 
me.  Z  obje^  i.  not  «ich  a  Govemm;  as  may  »«^ -J^,''^ 
such  a  one  as  our  Constituents  have  authorized  ™  *<>  P^"^' "'J^^ 
they  will  approve.  If  we  argue  the  matter  on  the  ?PPJ«^t»°^  *^* 
no  Confederacy  at  present  exists,  it  can  not  ue  denied  that  all  the 

.  The  fip,r.,  "  1  ••  and  "  2  "  .re  changed  to  "  Brst "  and  «  «=condly  "  In  the 
transcript. 


106      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

States  stand  on  the  footing  of  equal  sovereignty.    All  therefore  mut 
concur  before  any  can  be  bound.    If  a  proportional  representation  be 
right,  why  do  we  not  vote  so  heret    If  we  argue  on  the  fact  that  a 
federal  compact  actually  exists,  and  consult  the  articles  of  it  we  still 
find  an  equal  Sovereignty  to  be  the  basis  of  it.   He  veads  the  5*  art: 
of  *  Confederation  giving  each  St&te  a  vote— &  the  13*^  declaring  that 
no  alteration  shall  be  made  without  unanimous  consent.     This  is 
the  nature  of  all  treaties.    What  is  unanimously  done,  must  be 
unanimously  undone.   It  was  observed  [by  Mr  Wilson]  that  the  larger 
States  gave  up  the  point,  not  because  it  was  right,  but  because  the 
circumstances  of  the  moment  urged  the  concession.    Be  it  so.    Are 
they  for  that  reason  at  liberty  to  take  it  back.    Can  the  donor  resume 
his  gift  without  the  consent  of  the  donee.    This  doctrine  may  be  con^ 
venient,  but  it  is  a  doctrine  that  will  sacrifice  the  lesser  States.    The 
large  States  acceded  rexlily  to  the  confederacy.    It  was  the  small 
ones  that  came  in  reluctantly  and  slowly,   N,  Jersey  &  Maryland  were 
the  two  last,  the  former  objecting  to  the  want  of  power  in  Congress 
over  trade:  both  of  them  to  the  want  of  power  to  appropriate  the 
vacant  territory  to  the  benefit  of  the  whole.— If  the  sovereignty  of  the 
States  is  to  be  maintained,  the  Representatives  must  be  drawn  im- 
mediately from  the  States,  not  from  the  people:  and  we  have  no 
power  to  vary  the  idea  of  equal  sovereignty.    The  only  expedient 
that  will  cure  the  difficulty,  is  that  of  throwing  the  States  into 
Hotchpot.    To  say  that  this  is  impracticable,  will  not  make  it  so.   Let 
it  be  tried,  and  we  shall  see  whether  the  Citizens  of  Mass**.  Pen?  & 
V?  accede  to  it.    It  will  be  objected  that  Coercion  will  be  imprac- 
ticable.   But  will  it  be  more  so  in  one  plan  than  the  othert    Its 
efficacy  will  depend  on  the  quantum  of  power  collected,  not  on  its 
being  drawn  from  the  States,  or  from  the  individuals;  and  according 
to  his  plan  it  may  be  exerted  on  individuals  as  well  as  according* 
that  of  MI  R.    A  distinct  executive  &  Judiciary  also  were  equally 
provided  by  his  plan.    It  is  urged  that  two  branches  in  the  Legis- 
lature are  necessary.    Whyt  for  the  purpose  of  a  check.    But  the 
reason  of  the  precaution  is  not  applicable  to  this  case.    Within  a 
particular  State,  where  party  heats  prevail,  such  a  check  may  be 
necessary.   In  such  a  body  as  Congress  it  is  less  necessaiy,  and  besides, 
the  delegations  of  the  different  States  are  checks  on  each  other.    Do 
the  people  at  large  complain  of  Cong?t    No,  what  they  wish  is  that 
Cong?  may  have  more  power.    If  the  power  now  proposed  be  not  eno', 

*  The  word  "  the  "  U  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  to  "  is  here  inRerted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  for  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  of." 


SESSION  OP  SATUEDAY,  JUNE  16,  1787 


107 


the  people  hereafter  will  make  additions  to  it.  With  proper  powers 
Cong;  will  act  with  more  energy  &  wisdom  than  the  proposed  Nat{ 
Legislature;  being  fewer  in  number,  and  more  secreted  &  refined  by 
the  mode  of  election.  The  plan  of  Mr  B.  will  also  be  enormously 
expensive.  Allowing  Georgia  &  Del.  two  representatives  each  in  the 
popular  branch  the  aggregate  number  of  thai  branch  will  be  180. 
Add  to  it  half  as  many  for  the  other  branch  and  you  have  270. 
membera  coming  once  at  least  a  year  from  the  most  distant  as  well 
as  the  most  central  parts  of  the  republic.  In  the  present  deranged 
state  of  our  finances  can  so  expensive  a  system  be  seriously  thought 
of!  By  enlarging  the  powers  of  Cong!  the  greatest  part  of  this 
expence  will  be  saved,  and  all  purposes  will  be  answered.  At  least 
s  trial  ought  to  be  made. 

M:  WnaoN  entered  into  a  contrast  of  the  principal  points  of  the 
two  plans  so  far  he  said  as  there  had  been  time  to  examine  the  one 
last  proposed.    These  points  were  1.  in  the  VirgT  plan  there  are  a  & 
in  some  degree  3  branches  in  the  Legislature:  in  the  plan  from 
N.  J.  there  is  to  be  a  tingU  legislature  only— 2.  Representation  of 
the  people  at  large  is  the  basis  of  the*  one:— the  State  Legislatures, 
the  pillars  of  the  other— 3.  proportional  representation  prevails  in  one: 
—equality  of  suffrage  in  the  other— 4.  A  single  Bxi    .^n  Magistrate 
is  at  the  head  of  the  one :— a  plurality  is  held  out  ii     He  other.— 5.  in 
the  one  the  *  majority  of  the  people  of  the  U.  S.  musi  prevail  ^-in  the 
other  a  minority  may  prevail.    6.  the  Nat'  LegisUtnre  is  to  make 
laws  in  all  cases  to  which  the  separate  States  are  incompetent  &-:— 
in  place  of  this  Cong?  are  to  have  additional  power  in  a  few  cases 
only— 7.  A  negative  on  the  laws  of  the  States:— in  place  of  this 
coertion  to  be  substituted— 8.  The  Executive  to  be  removeable  on 
impeachment  &  conviction r-in  one  plan:  in  the  other  to  be  remove- 
able  at  the  instance  of »  majority  of  the  Executives  of  the  States— 
9.  Revision  of  the  laws  provided  for  in  one:— no  such  check  in  the 
other— 10.  inferior  national  tribunals  in  one:— none  such  in  the  other. 
11.    In  y*  one  jurisdiction  of  NalJ  tribunals  to  extend  &c— ;  an 
appellate  jurisdiction  only  allowed  in  the  other.    12.  Here  the  juris- 
diction is  to  extend  to  all  cases  affecting  the  Nation.'  peace  &  bar- 
mony:  there,  a  few  cases  only  are  marked  out.    13.  finally  y?  ratifica- 
tion is  in  this  to  be  by  the  people  themselves:- in  that  by  the  legis- 
lative authorities  according  to  the  13  art:  of  *  Confederation. 


» The  word  "  ths  ••  ii  omitted  ta  the  tnmscript. 

•  The  word  "  a  "  l§  mibrtltuted  in  the  transcript  for  "  the." 
■  The  word  "  a  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


108      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

With  regard  to  the  power  of  the  Convention,  he  conceived  himself 
authorized  to  conclude  nothing,  but  to  be  at  liberty  to  propose  any 
thing.    In  this  particular  he  felt  himself  perfecUy  indifferent  to  the 

two  plans.  . 

With  regard  to  the  sentiments  of  the  people,  he  conceived  it  diffi- 
cult to  know  precisely  what  they  are.  Those  of  the  particular  circle  in 
which  one  moved,  were  commonly  mistaken  for  the  general  voice.  He 
could  not  persuade  himself  that  the  State  Gov'^  &  Sovereignties  were  so 
much  the  idols  of  the  people,  nor  a  Nat!  Gov?  so  obnoxious  to  them,  as 
some  supposed.  Why  si  a  Nat'  Govi  be  unpopular!  Has  it  less 
dignity!  will  each  Citizen  enjoy  under  it  less  liberty  or  protection! 
WUl  a  Citizen  ol  Delaware  be  degraded  by  becoming  a  Citizen  of  the 
United  Statest  *  Where  do  the  people  look  at  present  for  reli.-f  from 
the  evils  of  which  they  complain!  Is  it  from  an  internal  reform  of 
their  Gov«;!  no,  Sir.  It  is  from  the  Nat'  Councils  that  relief  is 
expected.  For  these  reasons  he  did  not  fear,  that  the  people  would 
not  follow  us  into  a  national  Gov!  and  it  will  be  a  further  record- 
mendation  of  Ml  R.'s  plan  that  it  is  to  be  submitted  to  them,  and  not  u 
the  Legislatures,  for  ratification. 

proceeding  now  to  the  1"  point  on  which  he  had  contrasted  the  two 
plans,  he  observed  that  anxious  as  he  was  for  some  augmentation  of 
the  federal  powers,  it  would  be  with  extreme  reluctance  indeed  that  he 
could  ever  consent  to  give  powers  to  Cong!-   he  had  two  reasons  either 
of  w*"  was  sufficient    l.»  Cong?  as  a  Legislative  body  does  not  stand 
on  the  people.    2.»  it  is  a  single  body.    1.  He  would  not  repeat  the 
remarks  he  had  formerly  made  on  the  principles  of  Representation, 
he  would  only  say  that  an  inequality  in  it,  has  ever  been  a  poison 
contaminating  every  branch  of  Gov*    In  G.  Britain  where  this  poison 
has  had  a  full  operation,  the  security  of  private  rights  is  owmg 
entirely  to  the  purity  of  Her  tribunals  of  Justice,  the  Judges  of 
which  are  neither  appointed  nor  paid,  by  a  venal  Parliament.    The 
political  liberty  of  that  Nation,  owing  to  the  inequality  of  representa- 
tion is  at  the  mercy  of  its  mlers.    He  means  not  to  insinuate  that 
there  is  any  parallel  between  the  situation  of  that  Country  &  ours  at 
present.   But  it  is  a  lesson  we  ought  not  to  disregard,  that  the  smaUest 
bodies  in  G.  B.  are  notoriously  the  most  corrupt.    Every  other  source 
of  influence  must  also  be  stronger  in  small  than "  large  bodies  of  men. 
When  Lord  Chesterfield  had  told  us  that  one  of  the  Dutch  provinces 


>  The  traiiRcript  does  not  iUliciie  the  word  "  States." 

•The  figures  "1"  and  "2"  are  changed  to  "first"  and  "secondly     in  the 

""  •^The  word  "  in  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  SATUBDAY,  JUNE  16,  1787 


109 


had  been  aeduced  into  the  views  of  France,  he  need  not  have  added, 
that  it  was  not  Holland,  bat  one  of  the  tmaUest  of  them.  There 
are  facts  among  ourselves  which  are  known  to  all.  Passing  over 
others,  he  *  will  only  remark  that  the  Impost,  so  anxiously  wished  for 
by  the  public  was  defeated  not  by  any  of  the  larger  States  in  the 
Union.  2.  Congress  is  a  single  Legislature.  Despotism  comes  on 
Mankind  in  different  Shapes,  sometimes  in  an  Executive,  sometimes 
in  a  Military,  one.  Is  there  no  danger  of  a  Legislative  despotism! 
Theory  &  practice  both  proclaim  it  If  the  Legislative  authority  be 
not  restrained,  there  can  be  neither  liberty  nor  stability;  and  it  can 
only  be  restrained  by  dividing  it  within  itself,  into  distinct  and  in- 
dependent branches.  In  a  single  House  there  is  no  check,  but  the 
inadequate  one,  of  the  virtue  &  good  sense  of  those  who  compose  it. 

On  another  great  point,  the  contrast  was  equally  favorable  to 
the  plan  reported  by  the  Cwnmittee  of  the  whole.  It  vested  the 
Executive  powers  in  a  single  Magistrate.  The  plan  of  N.  Jersey, 
vested  them  in  a  plurality.  In  order  to  controul  the  Legislative 
authority,  you  must  divide  it.  In  order  to  controul  the  Executive 
you  must  unite  it.  One  man  will  be  more  responsible  than  three. 
Three  will  contend  among  themselves  till  one  becomes  the  mas- 
ter of  his  colleagues.  In  the  triumvirates  of  Rome  first  Ctesar, 
then  Augustus,  are  witnesses  of  this  truth.  The  Kings  of  Sparta, 
&  the  Consuls  of  Rome  prove  also  the  factious  consequences  of  dividing 
the  Executive  Magistracy.  Having  already  taken  up  so  much  time  he 
w*  not  he  s*  proceed  to  any  of  the  other  points.  Those  on  which  he  had 
dwelt,  are  sufficient  of  themselves:  and  on  a  decision  of  them,  the 
fate  of  the  others  will  depend. 

Mr  PiNKNET,  the  whole  comes  to  this,  as  he  conceived.  Give  N. 
Jersey  an  equal  vote,  and  she  will  dismiss  her  scruples,  and  concur  in 
the  Natl'  system.  He  thought  the  Convention  authorized  to  ^  any 
length  in  recommending,  which  they  found  necessary  to  remedy  the 
evils  which  produced  this  Convention. 

MT  Elseworth  proposed  as  a  more  distinctive  form  of  coUectmg 
the  mind  of  the  Committee  on  the  subject,  "  that  the  Legislative 
power  of  the  U.  S.  should  remain  in  Cong*."  This  was  not  seconded, 
though  it  seemed  better  calculated  for  the  purpose  than  the  1?  prop- 
osition of  M'.  Patterson  in  place  of  which  W  E.  wished  to  substitute  it. 
Mt  Randolph,  was  not  scrupulous  on  the  point  of  power,  wnen 
the  salvation  of  the  Republic  was  at  stake,  it  would  be  treason  to 


if 

1'.  . 


^'^:i. 


>  The  word  "  we  "  is  sobstiiuUd  in  the  trangcript  for  "  he." 


no   DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

our  trust,  not  to  propose  what  we  found  necessary.  He  painted  in 
strong  colours,  the  ir-becUity  of  the  existing  Confederacy,  &  the 
danger  of  delaying  a  substontial  reform.  In  answer  to  the  objection 
drawn  from  the  sense  of  our  Constituents  as  denoted  by  their  acta 
relating  to  the  Convention  and  the  objects  of  their  deliberation,  he 
observed  that  as  each  State  acted  separately  in  the  case,  it  would 
have  been  indecent  for  it  to  have  charged  the  existing  Constitution 
with  aU  the  vices  which  it  might  have  perceived  in  it.  The  first 
State  that  set  on  foot  this  experiment  would  not  have  been  justified 
in  going  so  far.  ignorant  as  it  was  of  the  opinion  of  others,  and 
sensible  as  it  must  have  been  of  the  uncertainty  of  a  saccewful  issue 
to  the  experiment.  There  are  certainly  seasons »  of  a  peculiar  nature 
where  the  ordinary  cautions  must  be  dispensed  with;  and  this  is 
certainly  one  of  them.  He  w»  not  as  far  as  depended  on  him  leave 
any  thing  that  seemed  necessary,  undone.  The  present  moment  is 
favorable,  and  is  probably  the  last  that  wiU  offer. 

The  true  question  is  whether  we  shall  adhere  to  the  federal  plan, 
or  introduce  the  national  plan.    The  insufficiency  of  the  former  has 
been  fully  displayed  by  the  trial  already  made.    There  are  but  two 
modes,  by  which  the  end  of  a  Gen!  Gov*  can  be  attained:  the  W  is    by 
coercion  as  proposed  by  Ml  P.s  plan  2.'  by  real  legislation  as  prop, 
by  the  other  plan.     Coereion  he  pronounced  to  be  mpracttcabu, 
expensive,  cruel  to  individMals.   It  tended  also  to  habituate  the  instra- 
ments  of  it  to  shed  the  blood  &  riot  in  the  spoils  of  their  fellow  Citi- 
zens and  consequently  trained  them  up  for  the  service  of  ambition. 
We  must  resort  therefore  to  a  National  ♦  LegUUition  over  individuals, 
for  which  Cong;  are  unfit.    To  vest  such  power  in  them,  would  be 
blending  the  Legislative  with  the  Executive,  contrary  to  the  rec. 
maxim  on  this  subject:  If  the  Union  of  these  powers  heretofore  in 
Cong;  has  been  safe,  it  has  been  owing  to  the  general  unpotency  of 
that  body.    Cong!  are  moreover  not  elected  by  the  people,  but  by  the 
Legislatures  who  retain  even  a  power  of  recall.    They  have  tiiere- 
fore  no  will  of  their  own,  they  are  a  mere  diplomatic  body,  and  are 
always  obsequious  to  the  views  of  the  States,  who  are  always  en- 
croaching on  the  authority  of  the  U.  States.    A  provision  for  harmony 
among  the  States,  as  in  trade,  naturalization  &c.-for  crushing  rebel- 
lion whenever  it  may  rear  its  crest— and  for  certain  other  general 


« The  words  «  certainly  seawns  "  are  transposed  to  read  swiaons  ,f  rtauHy 
in  tie  transcript;  but  th/word  "season.;' was  erroneously  prmted  "re.sons. 
which  error  has  been  followed  in  other  editions  of  Madison  s  notes. 

» The  word  "  is  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  figure  "  2  "  is  changed  to  "  the  second     in  the  transcript. 

*  The  transcript  iUlicizes  the  word  "  National." 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JUNE  18,  1787 


111 


benefits,  must  be  made.  The  powers  for  these  purposes,  can  never 
be  given  to  a  body,  inadequate  as  Congress  are  in  point  of  rep- 
resentation, elected  in  the  mode  in  which  they  are,  and  possessing 
no  more  confidence  than  they  do:  for  notwithstanding  what  has  been 
said  to  the  contrary,  his  own  exp«"ncnce  satisfied  him  that  a  rooted 
distrust  of  Congress  pretty  generally  prevailed.  A  Nati  Gov?  alone, 
properly  constituted,  will  answer  the  purpose;  and  he  begged 
it  to  be  considered  that  the  present  is  the  last  moment  for  estab- 
lishing one.  After  this  select  experiment,  the  people  will  yield  to 
despair. 

The  Committee  rose  &  the  House  adjourned. 


MoNDAT  Junk  18.  m  Committee  op  the  whole  on  the  pBOPOsmoNS 
OF  M^  Patterson  &  W  Bandolph 

On  motion  of  IK  Dickinson  to  postpone  the  1?»  Resolution  in  W 
Patterson's  plan,  in  order  to  take  up  the  following  viz—"  that  the 
Articles  of  Confederation  ought  to  be  revised  and  amended,  so  as 
to  render  the  Government  of  the  XI.  S.  adequate  to  the  exigences, 
the  preservation  and  the  prosperity  of  the  Union  "  the  postponement 
was  agreed  to  by  10  States,  Pen :  divided. 

Mr  Hamilton,  had  been  hitherto  silent  on  the  business  before 
the  Convention,  partly  from  respect  to  others  whose  superior  abilities 
age  &  experience  rendered  him  unwilling  to  bring  forward  ideas  dis- 
similar to  Ifcftirs,  and  partly  from  his  delicate  situation  with  respect 
to  his  owii  State,  to  whose  sentiments  as  expressed  by  his  Colleagues, 
he  could  by  no  means  accede.    The  crisis  however  which  now  marked 
our  affairs,  was  too  serious  to  permit  any  scruples  whatever  to  prevail 
over  the  duty  imposed  on  every  man  to  contribute  his  efforts  for  the 
public  safety  ft  happiness.    He  was  obliged  therefore  to  declare  him- 
self unfriendly  to  both  plans.    He  was  particularly  opposed  to  that 
from  N.  Jersey,  being  fuUy  convinced,  that  no  amendment  of  the 
Confederation,  leaving  the  States  in  possession  of  their  Sovereignty 
could  possibly  answer  the  purpose.    On  the  other  hand  he  confessed 
he  was  much  discouraged  by  the  amazing  extent  of  Country  in  ex- 
pecting the  desired  blessings  from  any  general  sovereignty  that  could 
be  substituted.— As  to  the  powers  of  the  Convention,  he  thought  the 
doubts  started  on  that  subject  had  arisen  from  distinctions  &  reason- 
ings  too  subtle.    A  federal  Gov'  he  conceived  to  mean  au  association 
of  independent  Commurities  into  one.    Different  Confederacies  have 


112     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

different  powers,  and  exerciie  them  in  different  ways.  In  some  in- 
•tancea  the  power«  are  exerciied  over  collective  bodies ;  in  other*  over 
individuals,  as  in  the  German  Diet— A  among  ourselves  in  cases  at 
piracy.  Great  latitude  therefore  must  be  given  to  the  signification  of 
the  term.  The  plan  last  proposed  deparU  itself  from  the  federal 
idea,  as  understood  by  some,  since  it  is  to  operate  eventually  on 
individuals.  He  agreed  moreover  with  the  Honble  gentleman  from 
V*  [Mr  B.]  that  we  owed  it  to  our  Country,  to  do  on  this  emergency 
whatever  we  should  deem  essential  to  its  happiness.  The  States  sent 
us  here  to  provide  for  the  exigences  of  the  Union.  To  rely  on  ft 
propose  any  plan  not  adequate  to  these  exigences,  merely  because  it 
was  not '  clearly  within  our  powers,  would  be  to  sacrifice  the  mean* 
to  the  end.  It  may  be  said  that  the  States  can  not  ratify  a  plan  not 
within  the  purview  of  the  article  of*  Confederation  providing  for 
alterations  &  amendments.  But  may  not  the  States  themselyea  in 
which  no  constitutional  authority  equal  to  this  purpose  exists  in  the 
Legislatures,  have  had  in  view  a  reference  to  the  people  at  large. 
In  the  Senate  of  N.  York,  a  proviso  was  moved,  that  no  act  of  the 
Convention  should  be  binding  untiil  it  should  be  referred  to  the 
people  &  ratified;  and  the  motion  was  lost  by  a  single  voice  only,  the 
reason  assigned  a^i*  it  being,  that  it  might  icssibly  be  found  an 
inconvenient  shackle. 

The  great  question  is  what  provision  shall  we  make  for  the 
happiness  of  our  Country?  He  would  first  make  a  comparative  ex- 
amination of  the  two  plans— prove  that  there  were  essential  defects 
in  both— and  point  out  such  changes  as  might  render  a  national  one, 
efficacious.— The  great  &  essential  principles  necessary  for  the  sup- 
port of  Government  are  1.  an  active  &  constant  interest  in  supporting 
it.  This  principle  does  not  exist  in  the  States  in  favor  of  the  federal 
Gov*  They  have  evidently  in  a  high  degree,  the  esprit  de  corps. 
They  constantly  pursue  internal  interests  adverse  to  those  of  the 
whole.  They  have  their  particular  debts— their  particular  plana  of 
finance  &c.  All  these  when  opposed  to,  invariably  prevaU  over  the 
requisitions  &  plans  of  Congress.  2.  The  love  of  power.  Men  love 
power.  The  same  remarks  are  applicable  to  this  principle.  The 
States  have  constantly  shewn  a  disposition  rather  to  regain  the  powen 
delegated  by  them  than  to  part  with  more,  or  to  give  effect  to  what 
they  had  parted  with.  The  ambition  of  their  demagogues  is  known  to 
hate  the  controul  of  the  Gen)  Government.    It  may  be  remarked  :oo 


■The  word  "not"  is  blotted  in  the  notes  but  i»  retained  because  it  is  in 

the  transcript.  ,  .    ^^    j.         _•_» 

"  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JUNE  18,  1787 


lU 


that  the  Citixeiu  have  not  that  anxiety  to  prevent  a  dieulation  of 
the  Oen!  Oot'.  aa  of  the  particular  OoT*f   A  diaaolation  of  the  latter 
would  be  fatal;  of  the  former  would  atill  leave  the  purpoaes  of  Gov! 
attainable  to  a  eonaiderable  def^ree.    Connder  what  aoch  a  State  aa 
Virg?  wi    .<s  in  a  few  years,  a  few  compared  with  the  life  of  nations. 
How  atrongly  will  it  feel  ita  importance  ft  ■elf-soflBcieneyt    8.  An 
habitual  attachment  of  the  people.    The  whole  force  of  this  tie  i»  on 
the  aide  of  the  State  Gov'.   Ite  sovereignty  ia  immediately  before  the 
eyes  of  the  people:  ita  protection  ia  immediately  enjoyed  by  them. 
Prom  ita  hand  distributive  justice,  and  all  those  acta  which  familiarize 
ft  endear »  Gov!  to  a  people,  are  dispensed  to  them.   4.  Force  by  which 
may  be  understood  a  coercion  of  laws  or  coertion  of  artnt.    Cong! 
have  not  the  former  except  in  few  eases.    In  particular  States,  this 
coercion  is  nearly  sufficient;  tho'  ha  held  it  in  most  cases,  not 
entirely  so.    A  cerUin  portion  of  military  forcj  is  absolutely  neces- 
sary in  large  communities.    Masrrt  is  now  feeling  this  necessity  ft 
making  provision  for  it    But  how  can  this  force  be  exerted  on  the 
States  collectively.    It  is  impossible.    It  amounta  to  a  war  between 
the  parties.    Foreign  powers  also  will  not  be  idle  spectators.    They 
will  interpose,  the  confusion  will  increase,  and  a  dissolution  of  the 
Union  ensue.     5.  influtnce.  he  did  not  mean  corruption,  but  a 
dispensation  of  those  regular  honora  ft  emoluments,  which  produce  an 
attachment  to  the  Gov*.   Almost  all  the  weight  of  these  is  on  the  side 
of  the  States;  and  must  continue  so  aa  long  as  the  States  continue  to 
exisi.    All  the  passions  then  we  see,  of  avarice,  ambition,  interest, 
which  govern  moat  individuals,  and  all  public  bodies,  fall  into  the 
cuTicnt  of  the  States,  and  do  not  flow  in  the  stream  of  the  Gen!  Gov! 
The  former  therefore  will  generally  be  an  overmatch  for  the  Gen. 
Gov*,  and  render  any  confederacy,  in  its  very  nature  precarious. 
Theory  is  in  this  case  fuUy  confirmed  by  experience.    The  Amphyo- 
tionic  Council  had  it  would  aeem  amplo  powers  for  general  purposea. 
It  had  in  particular  the  power  of  fining  and  using  force  ag!»  de- 
linquent membera.    What  was  the  consequence.    Their  decrees  were 
mere  signals  of  war.    The  Phocian  war  is  a  striking  example  of  it. 
Phflip  at  length  taking  advantage  of  their  disunion,  and  insinuating 
himself  into  their  Councils,  made  hinsst'*  master  of  their  fortunes. 
The  German  Confederacy  affords  another  lesson.    The  authority  of 
Charlemagne  seemed  to  be  as  great  as  could  be  necMsary.     The 
great  feudal  chiefs  however,  exercising  their  local  sovereignties,  soon 
felt  the  spirit  ft  found  the  means  of,  encroachmcnta,  which  reduced 


'  The  word  "  »  "  is  here  inierted  in  the  tniiiicript. 


114     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

the  imperial  authority  to  a  nominal  iOTereignty.    The  Diet  haa  roc 
ceeded,  which  tho*  aided  by  a  Prince  at  it»  head.  o£  great  authority 
independently  of  hia  imperial  attributea,  i»  a  atriking  iUuatration  of 
the  weakneaa  of  Confederated  Govemmenta.   Other  ezamplea  inrtruct 
ua  in  the  aame  truth.    The  Swiia  cantona  have  acarce  any  Union  at 
all,  and  have  been  more  than  once  at  war  with  one  another— How 
then  are  all  theae  evila  to  be  avoided  t  only  by  auch  a  compleat  sover- 
eignty in  the  general  Govemmf  aa  will  turn  aU  the  strong  pnnciplea 
&  paiaiona  above  mentioned  on  its  aide.   Doee  the  acheme  of  N.  Jersey 
produce  this  effect !   does  it  afford  any  aubatantial  remedy  whatever  t 
On  the  contrary  it  labors  under  great  defects,  and  the  defect  of  some 
of  its  provisions  will  destroy  the  etflcacy  of  others.    It  gives  a  direct 
revenue  to  Cong*  but  this  will  not  be  sufBcient.    The  balance  can 
only  be  supplied  by  wquiritiona:  which  experience  proves  can  not  be 
relied  on.    If  States  are  to  deliberate  on  the  mode,  they  wiU  also 
deliberate  on  the  object  of  the  suppUea,  and  will  grant  or  not  grant 
as  they  approve  or  disapprove  of  it.    The  delinquency  of  one  will 
invite  and  countenance  it  in  others.    Quotas  too  must  in  the  nature 
of  things  be  so  unequal  aa  to  produce  the  same  evil.     To  what 
standard  will  you  resort  t     Land  is  •  fallacioua  one.     Compare 
Holland  with  Russia:  France  or  Eng*  with  other  countries  of  Europe. 
Pen?  with  N.  CaroK  will  the  relative  pecuniary  abilities  in  those 
instances,  correspond  with  the  relative  value  of  land.    Take  nnmbera 
of  inhabitants  for  the  rule  and  make  like  comparison  of  different 
countries,  and  you  will  find  it  to  be  equally  unjust    The  different 
degrees  of  industry  and  improvement  in  different  Countries  render  the 
first  object  a  precarious  mearore  of  wealth.    Much  depends  too  on 
situation.   Con*  N.  Jersey  &  N.  Carolina,  not  being  commercial  States 
&  contributing  to  the  wealth  of  the  commercial  ones,  can  never  bear 
quotas  assessed  by  the  ordinary  rules  of  proportion.   They  will  &  must 
fail  in  their  duty,  their  example  will  be  followed,  and  the  Union  itself 
be  dissolved.    Whrace  then  is  the  national  revenue  to  be  drawn! 
from  Commerce  t  even  from  exports  which  notwithstanding  the  com- 
mon opinion  are  fit  objects  of  moderate  taxation,  from  excise,  &c  &c. 
These  tho'  not  equal,  are  less  unequal  than  quotas.    Another  destruc- 
tive ingredient  in  the  plan,  is  that  equality  of  suffrage  which  is  so 
much  desired  by  the  small  States.   It  is  not  in  human  nature  that  V" 
&  the  large  States  should  consent  to  it,  or  if  they  did  that  they  ah* 
long  abide  by  it.    It  shocks  too  much  the  *  ideas  of  Justice,  and  every 
human  feeling.    Bad  principles  in  a  Gov^  tho  slow  are  sure  in  their 


'  The  word  "  all "  i»  Bubstituted  in  the  tranwrlpt  for  "  the." 


SESSION  OF  MONDAT,  JUNE  18,  1787 


115 


operation,  and  wiU  gradually  d^troy  H.    A  doubt  haa  bwn  raiaed 
whether  Congf  at  preMOt  hare  a  right  to  keep  Shipa  or  troopa  in 
time  of  peace.    He  leani  to  the  negatire.    W  Pr  plan  proTidea  no 
remedy.— II  the  powers  propoeed  were  adequate,  the  organiiatioD  of 
Cong'i  ia  sneh  that  they  could  never  be  properly  A  ef  ectually  exer- 
cised.   The  members  of  Cong?  being  choeen  by  the  SUtea  ft  subject 
to  recall,  repreeent  all  the  local  prejudices.    Should  the  powers  be 
found  effectual,  they  will  from  time  to  time  be  heaped  on  them,  till 
a  tyrannic  sway  shall  be  established.    The  general  power  whatever 
be  its  form  if  it  preserves  itself,  must  swallow  up  the  State  powers. 
Otherwise  it  wiU  be  swaUowed  up  by  them.    It  ia  ag*  all  the  prin- 
ciples >f  a  good  Government  to  vest  the  requisite  powers  in  such  a 
body  as  Cong?    Two  Sovereignties  can  not  co-exist  within  the  same 
limita.    Giving  powers  to  CkmgJ  must  eventuate  in  a  bad  Gov?  or 
in  no  Gov*.    The  plan  of  N.  Jersey  therefore  wiU  not  do.    What  then 
is  to  be  done  t   Here  he  was  embarrassed.   The  extent  of  the  Country 
to  be  governed,  discouraged  him.    The  expence  of  a  general  Gov 
was  also  formidable;  unless  there  were  such  a  diminution  of  expence 
on  the  side  of  the  State  Gov«?  aa  the  case  would  admit    If  they 
were  extinguished,  he  was  persuaded  that  great  oeconomy  might  be 
obtained  by  substituting  a  general  Gov?   He  did  not  mean  however  to 
shock  the  public  opinion  by  proposing  such  a  measure.    On  the  other 
hand  he  saw  no  otlur  necessity  for  declining  it    They  are  not  neces- 
sary for  any  of  the  great  purposes  of  commerce,  revenue,  or  agn- 
cultnre.    Subordinate  authoritiea  he  waa  aware  would  be  necessary. 
There  must  be  district  tribunals :  eorporationa  for  local  purposes.  But 
cui  bono,  the  vast  &  expensive  apparatus  now  appertaining  to  the 
States.    The  only  difflculty  of  a  serious  nature  which  occurred  to 
him,  was  that  of  drawing  reprewntatives  from  the  extremes  to  the 
center  of  the  Crnimunity.   "What  inducements  can  be  offered  that  wiU 
suffice t    The  moderate  wages  for  the  If  branch  would*  only  be  a 
bait  to  little  demagogues.    Three  dollars  or  thereabouts  he  supposed 
would  be  the  utmost    The  Senate  he  feared  from  a  simflar  cause, 
would  be  filed  by  certain  undertakers  who  wish  for  particular  oflSees 
under  the  0  ov!  Thia  view  of  the  subject  almost  led  him  to  despair  that 
a  Republican  G«v<  could  be  eatabliahed  over  so  great  an  extent    He 
was  sensible  at  the  same  time  that  it  would  be  unwise  to  propose  one 
of  any  other  form.    In  hu  private  opinion  he  had  no  scruple  in  de- 
daring,  supported  as  he  was  by  the  opinions  of  so  many  of  the  wise 
&  good,  that  the  British  Gov*  was  the  best  in  the  world:  and  that  he 


•The  word  "could"  is  iiriMtitnted  to  the  tnuieript  for  "would." 


U6  DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

doubted  mach  whether  way  thinf  short  of  it  would  do  in  Amerie*. 
He  hoped  Oentlemen  of  different  opinion*  would  bear  with  him  in 
this,  and  begged  them  to  recollect  the  change  of  opinion  on  thto 
■nbjeet  which  had  taken  place  and  was  still  going  on.  It  was  one* 
thought  that  the  power  of  Cong!  was  amply  sufficient  to  secure  the  end 
of  their  institution.  The  error  wu  now  seen  by  every  one.  The 
members  most  tenacious  of  republicanism,  he  obsenred,  were  as  loud 
as  any  in  declaiming  ag^  the  trices  of  democracy.  This  progress  of  the 
public  mind  led  him  to  anticipate  the  time,  when  ethers  as  well  at 
himself  would  join  in  the  praise  bestowed  by  Mf  Ner  on  the  British 
Constitution,  namely,  that  it  is  the  only  Gov?  in  the  world  "  which 
unites  public  strength  with  individual  security."— In  every  com- 
munity where  industry  is  enoouraged,  there  will  be  a  division  of  it  into 
the  few  &  the  many.  Uenoe  separate  interests  will  arise.  There  will  be 
debtors  &  creditors  Ac.  Give  all  power  to  the  many,  they  will  oppress 
the  few.  Give  all  power  to  the  few,  they  will  oppress  the  many. 
Both  therefore  ought  to  have*  power,  that  each  mny  defend  itsdf 
ag^  the  other.  To  the  want  of  this  check  we  owe  our  paper  money, 
instalment  laws  &c.  To  the  proper  adjustment  of  it  the  British  owe 
the  excellence  of  their  Constitution.  Their  house  of  Lords  is  a  most 
noble  institution.  Having  rthing  to  hope  for  by  a  change,  and  a 
sufficient  interest  by  means  of  their  property,  in  being  faithful  to  tha 
national  interest,  they  form  a  permanent  barrier  ag^  every  pemicioua 
innovation,  whether  attempted  on  the  part  of  the  Crown  or  of  the 
Commons.  No  temporary  Senate  will  have  flnur'  eao'  to  answer 
the  purpose.  The  Senate  [of  Maryland]  which  seems  to  be  so  much 
appealed  to,  has  not  yet  been  sufficiently  tried.  Had  the  people  been 
unanimous  &  eager,  in  the  late  appeal  to  them  on  the  subject  of  a 
paper  emission  they  would  would  have  yielded  to  the  torrent.  Their 
acquiescing  in  such  an  appeal  is  a  proof  ot  it. — Gentlemen  differ  in 
their  opinions  concerning  the  necessary  checlcs,  from  the  different  esti- 
mates they  form  of  the  human  passions.  They  suppose  seven  yean 
a  sufficient  period  to  give  the  senate  an  adequate  firmness,  from  not 
duly  consideriiig  the  amazing  violence  &  turbulence  of  the  democratic 
spirit.  "When  a  great  object  of  Gov!  is  pursued,  which  seizes  the 
popular  passions,  they  spread  like  wild  fire,  and  become  irresistable. 
He  appealed  to  the  gentlemen  from  the  N.  England  States  whether  ex- 
perience had  not  there  verified  the  remark. — As  to  the  Executive,  it 
seemed  to  be  admitted  that  no  good  one  could  be  established  on 
Republican  principles.   Was  not  this  giving  up  the  merits  of  the  ques- 


'The  word  "the"  it  here  inserted  in  the  tnuiMript. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JUNE  18,  1787 


U1 


tioB :  for  can  there  be  a  good  Gov}  without  a  good  Exeentive.  Tha 
English  model  waa  the  onlr  good  one  on  thk  rabject  The  HerediUry 
intereet  of  the  King  waa  ac*  interworeu  with  that  of  the  Nation,  and 
hia  peraonal  emclumenta  eo  great,  that  he  waa  placed  aboTe  the  danger 
of  being  ecrrnpted  from  abroad— and  at  the  eame  time  waa  both 
rafflciently  independent  and  rafflciently  e<mtroaled,  to  anawer  the  par* 
poee  of  the  inatitation  at  home,  one  of  the  weak  aide*  of  Republiea 
waa  their  being  liable  to  foreign  influence  ft  eormption.  Men  of 
little  character,  acquiring  great  power  become  eaaily  the  tooU  of  inter- 
medling  Neiboora.  Sweeden  waa  a  atriUng  inatanee.  The  French  4 
Engliih  had  each  their  parties  during  the  late  Rerolution  which 
waa  effected  bjr  the  predominant  influence  of  thi  former.— What  ia 
the  inference  from  all  theae  obaenrationsf  That  we  ought  to  go  aa  far 
in  order  to  attain  stability  and  permanency,  aa  republican  principlea 
will  admit  Let  one  branch  of  the  Legislature  hold  their  places  for 
life  or  at  leaat  during  good  behariour.  Let  the  Executive  also  be  for 
life.  He  appealed  to  the  feelings  of  the  members  present  whether  a 
term  of  seven  years,  would  induce  the  sacrifices  of  private  affairs  which 
an  acceptance  of  public  troat  would  recinire,  ao  so  aa  to  ensure  the  serv- 
ices of  the  beet  Citizens.  On  this  plan  we  should  have  in  the  Senate 
a  permanent  will,  a  weighty  interest,  which  would  anawer  essential 
purposes.  But  is  this  a  Republican  Oovi,  it  will  be  aakedt  Ye.  if 
all  the  Magistrates  are  appointed,  and  vacanciea  are  filled,  by  the 
people,  or  a  prooeas  of  election  originating  with  the  people.  He  waa 
sensible  that  an  Executive  constituted  aa  he  proposed  would  have  in 
fad  but  little  of  the  powtr  and  independence  that  might  be  necea- 
sary.  On  the  other  plan  of  appointing  him  for  7  years,  he  thought 
the  Executive  ought  to  have  but  little  power.  He  would  be  am- 
bitious, with  the  means  of  making  creatures;  and  aa  the  object  of  hia 
ambition  w1  be  to  prolong  hia  power,  it  ia  probable  that  in  case  of  a* 
war,  he  would  avail  himaelf  of  the  emergence,*  to  evade  or  refuse  a 
degradation  from  his  place.  An  Executive  for  life  has  not  this 
motive  for  forgetting  his  fidelity,  and  will  therefore  be  a  safer 
depository  of  power.  It  will  be  objected  probably,  that  such  an 
Executive  will  be  an  elective  Monarch,  and  will  give  birth  to  the 
tumults  which  characterize  that  form  of  Govl  He  w1  reply  that 
MotMrch  is  an  indefinite  term.  It  marks  not  either  the  degree  or  dura- 
tion of  power.  If  thia  Executive  Magistrate  w1  be  a  monarch  for  life 
— ^the  other  propl  by  the  Report  from  the  Comtte  of  the  whole,  w^ 


',i 


>  The  word  "  •  "  it  omittrd  In  the  tranieript. 

'  The  word  "  emergence  "  i»  changed  to  "  emergency  "  ia  the  transcript 


118      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

be  a  monarch  for  seven  years.  The  circumstance  of  being  elective  was 
also  applicable  to  both.  It  had  been  observed  by  judicious  writers 
that  elective  monarchies  w^  be  the  best  if  they  could  be  guarded  ag?* 
the  tumults  excited  by  the  ambition  and  intrigues  of  competitors. 
He  was  not  sure  that  tumults  were  an  inseparable  evil.  He 
rather  thought  this  character  of  Elective  Monarchies  had  been 
taken  rather  from  particular  cases  than  from  general  principles. 
The  election  of  Bomaa  Emperors  was  made  by  the  Army.  In 
Poland  the  election  ift  made  by  great  rival  princes  with  in- 
dependent power,  and  ample  means,  of  raising  commotions.  In 
the  German  Empire,  the  appointment  is  made  by  the  Electors  & 
Princes,  who  have  equal  motives  &  means,  for  exciting  cabals  &  parties. 
Might  not  such  a  mode  of  election  be  devised  among  ourselves  as 
will  defend  the  community  ag*.'  these  effects  in  any  dangerous  de- 
greet  Having  made  these  observations  he  would  read  to  the  Com- 
mittee a  sketch  of  a  plan  which  he  Sh^  prefer  to  either  of  those  under 
consideration.  He  was  aware  that  it  went  beyond  the  ideas  of  most 
members.  But  will  such  a  plan  be  udopted  out  of  doors!  In  return 
he  would  ask  will  the  people  adopt  the  other  plant  At  present  they 
will  adopt  neither.  But  he  sees  the  Union  dissolving  or  already  dis- 
solved— he  sees  evils  operating  in  the  States  which  must  soon  cure 
the  people  of  their  fondness  for  democracies — ^he  sees  that  a  great 
progress  has  been  already  made  &  is  still  going  on  in  the  public 
mind.  He  thinks  therefore  that  the  people  will  in  time  be  un- 
shackled from  their  prejudices ;  and  whenever  that  happens,  they  will 
themselves  not  be  satisfied  at  stopping  where  the  plan  of  Ml  B.  w1 
place  them,  but  be  ready  to  go  as  far  at  least  as  he  proposes.  He  did 
not  mean  to  offer  the  paper  he  had  sketched  as  a  proposition  to  the 
Committee.  It  was  meant  only  to  give  a  more  correct  view  of  his 
ideas,  and  to  suggest  thj  amendments  which  he  should  probably  pro- 
pose to  the  plan  of  Mr  B.  in  the  proper  stages  of  its  future  discussion. 
He  read  ^  his  sketch  in  the  words  following :  towit 

I.  "  The  Supreme  Legislative  power  of  the  United  States  of 
America  to  be  vested  in  two  different  bodies  of  men;  the  one  to  be 
called  the  Assembly,  the  other  the  Senate  who  together  shall  form  the 
Legislature  of  the  United  States  with  power  to  pass  all  laws  what- 
soever subject  to  the  Negative  hereafter  mentioned. 

II.  The  Assembly  to  consist  of  persons  elected  by  the  people  to 
serve  for  three  years. 

III.  The  Senate  to  consist  of  persons  elected  to  serve  during  good 
behaviour ;  their  election  to  be  made  by  electors  chosen  for  that  pur- 


'  The  word  "  reads  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  <>-  " read." 


ii-_.,-li 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JUNE  18,  1787 


119 


DOM  by  the  people:  in  order  to  this  the  SUtes  to  be  divided  into 
JStion  Sstricts  On  the  death,  removal  or  resignation  of  any 
Senator  his  place  to  be  filled  out  of  the  district  ''""^/J'^^J.^*  ^,*°^ 
IV  The  supreme  Executive  authority  of  the  United  States  to  be 
vested  in  a  Go  ?-nour  to  be  elected  to  serve  during  good  behwaour— 
SJ  dectir*  0  *-  Kaue  by  Electors  chosen  by  the  people  in  the  Election 
SJtSs  .iresaid-Thc  .,  thorities  ^t^^'^^^Z"^  ,^tJ^^:ZTJl 
be  as  fol  wv  to  have  a  r„  jfative  on  aU  laws  about  to  be  passed,  and 
tte  exec.  io>  of  cU  l■.v^  passed;  to  have  the  direction  of  war  when 
authorize.^  ov  be?an ;  to  uave  with  the  advice  and  approbation  of  the 
S?the  powe?oi  L.«:ung  all  treaties;  to  have  the  sole  appomtment 
of  the  headl.  or  chief  officers  of  the  departments  of  F"»ai»ce  JWar  and 
Foreign  Affairs;  to  have  the  nomination  of  all  other  officers  (Am- 
Wdors  to  foreign  Nations  included)  subject  to  *«  aPP™f "^i""  °' 
rejection  of  the  Senate;  to  have  the  power  of  pardoning  all  offences 
excTpt  Treason;  which  he  shall  not  pardon  without  the  approbation 

**'  v'STtife  death  resignation  or  removal  of  the  Governour  his 
authorities  to  be  exercised  by  the  President  of  the  Senate  till  a  Sue- 

'"^'Th^fstSt  to  have  the  sole  power  of  declaring  war.  the 
power  of  advising  and  approving  all  Treaties,  the  power  of  »PP™7"8 
OT  rejecting  aU  appointments  of  officers  except  ^e  heads  or  chiefs  of 
the  departments  of  Finance  War  and  foreipi  affairs. 

VII   The  supreme  Judicial  authority  to  be  vested  in  Judges 

to  hold  their  offices  during  good  behaviour  with  adequate  and  per- 
manent salaries.  This  Court  to  have  original  jurisdiction  m  aU 
causes  of  capture,  and  an  appellative  jurisdiction  in  all  «aa«»  "l^^J^^J 
Se  revenues  of  the  general  Government  op  the  Citizens  of  foreign 

^**Vin"ThrSSSS:tupe  of  the  United  States  to  have  power  to 
institute  Courts  in  each  State  for  the  determination  of  all  matters  of 

*^°IX  The*cSemour  Senators  and  all  officers  of  the  United  States 
to  be  liable  to  impeachment  for  mal-  and  corrupt  conduct ;  «id  upon 
eonviction  to  be  removed  from  office,  &  disquiaified  '"r^olding  *ny 
place  of  trust  or  proflt-All  impeachments  to  be  tried  by  »  Court  to 
Consist  of  the  CHef  or  indge  of  the  superior  Ccnirt  of  Law 

of  each  State,  provided  such  Judge  shall  hold  his  place  during  good 
behavior,  and  have  a  permanent  salary.  ^    ^v    r.     *•*,  * •«- 

X.  All  laws  of  the  particular  States  contrary  to  the  Constitution 
OP  laws  of  the  United  States  to  be  utterly  void;  and  the  better  to 
prevent  such  laws  being  passed,  the  Governour  or  president  of  each 
State  shall  be  appointed  by  the  General  Government  md  "haOhave 
a  negative  upon  the  laws  about  to  be  passed  m  the  State  of  which 
he  is  *  Governour  or  President  m-i*:. 

XI.  No  State  to  have  any  forces  land  or  Naval;  and  the  MiUtia 
of  all  the  States  to  be  under  the  sole  and  exclusive  direction  of  the 


'  The  word  "  the  "  to  here  iaierted  in  the  tnaseript 


120      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

United  States,  the  officers  of  which  to  be  appointed  and  commiuioned 
by  them. 

On  these  several  articles  he  entered  into  explanatory  observations  ^ 
corresponding  with  the  principles  of  his  introductory  reasoning.' 
'Committee  rose  &  the  House  Adjourned. 


Teusdat  June  19T=  in  Comhittee  of  '  whole  on  the  Propositions 

OP  M?  Patterson 

The  substitute  offered  yesterday  by  Mr  Dickenson  being  rejected 
by  a  vote  now  taken  on  it;  Con.  N.  Y.  N.J.  Del.  ay.*  Mas.  P?  V. 
N.  C.  S.  C.  Geo.  no."  Mayl  divided.  MJ  Patterson's  plan  was  again 
at  large  before  the  Committee. 

M!  Madison.  Much  stress  had  *  been  laid  by  some  gentlemen  <m 
the  want  of  power  in  the  Convention  to  propose  any  other  than  a 
federal  plan.  To  what  had  been  answered  by  others,  he  would  only 
add,  that  neither  of  the  characteristics  attached  to  a  federal  plan 
would  support  this  objection.  One  characteristic,  was  that  in  a 
federal  Qovemment,  the  power  was  exercised  not  on  the  people  in- 
dividually ;  ^  but  on  the  people  coUeciively,  on  the  States.  Tet  in  some 
instances  as  in  piracies,  captures  &c.  the  existing  Confederacy,  and  in 
many  instances,  the  amendments  to  it  proposed  by  M!  Patterson,  must 
operate  immediately  o^^  individuals.  The  other  characteristic  was, 
that  a  federal  Qovl  derived  its  appointments  not  immediately  1  'om 
the  people,  but  from  the  States  which  they  respeetively  composed. 
Here  too  were  facts  on  the  other  side.  In  two  of  the  States,  Connect 
and  Rh.  Island,  the  delegates  to  Cong?  were  chosen,  not  by  the  Legisla- 

■  In  the  transcript  the  following  footnote  wu  inserted  with  reference  mark 
after  "  obseryations  " : 

"The  speech  introducing  tJie  plan,  aa  above  taken  down  ft  written  out 
waa  seen  by  Mr.  Hamilton,  who  approved  ita  correctneas,  with  one  or  two  verbal 
changes,  which  were  made  aa  he  angiieated.  The  explanatory  observationB  which 
did  not  immediately  follow,  were  to  have  been  furnished  by  Mr.  H.  who  did  not 
find  leisure  at  the  time  to  write  titcm  out,  and  they  were  not  obtained. 

"  Judge  Yates,  in  his  notes,  appears  to  have  consolidated  the  explanatory 
with  the  introductory  observations  of  Mr.  Hamilton  (nnder  date  of  June  16th, 
a  typographical  error).  It  was  in  the  former,  Mr.  Madison  observed,  that  Mr. 
Hamilton,  in  spealcing  of  popular  govemments,  however  modified,  made  the 
remark  attributed  to  him  by  Judge  Yates,  that  they  were  '  bat  pork  itill  vith 
a  liitli  change  of  souoe.'" 

■  For  the  text  of  Hamilton's  Plan  handed  to  Madison  about  the  close  of  the 
Convention,  but  not  actually  submitted  to  that  body,  see  Appendix  to  DebatM, 
V,  pp.  608-918. 

•The  word  "The"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  figure  "  4  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  figure  "  6  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

■  The  word  "  has  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  had." 

*  The  transcript  italicizes  the  word  "  individually." 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  JUNE  19,  1787  121 

tnrei,  but  by  the  people  at  large;  and  the  plan  of  IC  P.  intended  no 
hange  in  this  particular. 

It  had  been  alledged  [by  M'  Patterson],  that  the  Confederation 
having  been  formed  by  imanimous  consent,  could  be  dissolved  by 
unanimous  Consent  only.  Does  this  doctrine  resu't  from  the  nature 
of  compacts  T  does  it  arise  from  any  particular  stipulation  in  the 
articles  of  Confederation!  If  we  consider  the  federal  union  as 
analogous  to  the  fundamental  compact  by  which  individuals  compose 
one  Society,  and  which  must  in  its  theoretic  origin  at  least,  have  been 
the  unanimous  act  of  the  component  members,  it  can  not  be  said  that 
no  dissolution  of  the  compact  can  be  effected  without  unanimous  con- 
sent. A  breach  of  the  fundamental  principles  of  the  compact  by  a 
part  of  the  Society  would  certainly  absolve  the  other  part  from  their 
obligations  to  it  If  the  breach  of  any  article  oy  any  of  the  parties, 
does  not  set  the  others  at  liberty,  it  is  because,  the  contrary  is  implied 
in  the  compact  itself,  and  particularly  by  that  law  of  it,  which  gives 
an  indifinite  anthority  to  the  majority  to  bind  the  whole  in  all  cases. 
This  latter  circumstance  shews  that  we  are  not  to  consider  the  federal 
Union  as  analogous  to  the  social  compact  of  individuals:  for  if  it 
were  so,  a  Majority  would  have  a  right  to  bind  the  rest,  and  even 
to  form  a  new  Constitution  for  the  whole,  wh.ch  the  GeLt?  from  N. 
Jei«ey  would  be  amtrng  the  last  to  admit.  If  we  consider  the  federal 
Union  as  analogous  not  to  the  social  compacts  amon»  ^dividual 
men:  but  to  the  conventions  among  individual  SUtee.  \  _at  is  the 
doctrine  resulting  from  these  conventions  t  Clearly,  according  to 
the  Expositors  of  the  law  of  Nations,  that  a  breach  of  any  one  article, 
by  any  one  party,  leaves  all  the  other  parties  at  liberty,  to  consider 
the  whole  convention  as  dissolved,  unless  they  choobr^  rather  to  com- 
pel the  delinquent  party  to  repair  the  breach.  In  some  treaties  in- 
deed it  is  expressly  stipulated  that  a  violation  of  particular  artidea 
ahall  not  have  this  consequence,  and  even  that  particular  article* 
shall  remain  in  force  during  war,  which  in  general  is  '■  understood  to 
dissolve  all  subsisting  Treaties.  But  are  there  any  exceptions  of 
this  sort  to  the  Articles  of  confederation  T  So  far  from  it  that  there 
is  not  even  an  express  stipulation  that  force  shall  be  used  to  eompell 
an  offending  member  of  the  Union  to  discharge  its  duty.  He  observed 
that  the  violations  of  the  federal  articles  had  been  numerous  &  noto- 
rious. Among  the  most  notorious  was  an  act  of  N.  Jersey  herself; 
by  which  she  expressly  refused  to  comply  with  a  constitutional 
requisition  of  Cong!  and  yielded  no  farther  to  the  expostulations  of 


^^^' The  words  "in  general  i»"  are  tranipoted  to  read  "is  in  general"  in  tte 


122      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


al  without 
ii  to  draw  any 


their  depaties,  than  barely  to  rescind  her  vote  of 
passing  any  positive  act  of  compliance.  He  did  not  w. 
rigid  inferences  from  these  observatious.  He  thought  it  proper  how- 
ever  that  the  true  nature  of  the  existing  confederacy  should  be  in- 
vestigated, and  he  was  not  anxious  to  strengthen  the  foundations  on 
which  it  now  stands. 

Proceeding  to  the  consideration  of  M!  Patterson's  plan,  he  stated 
the  object  of  a  proper  plan  to  be  twofold.  l.»  to  preserve  the  Union. 
2."  to  provide  a  Govemm'.  that  will  remedy  the  evils  felt  by  the  States 
both  in  their  united  and  individual  capacities.  Examine  Mt  Ps  plan, 
&  say  whether  it  promises  satisfaction  in  these  respects. 

1.  Will  it  prevent  those  violations  of  the  law  of  nations  &  of 
Treaties  which  if  not  prevented  must  involve  as  in  the  calamities 
of  foreign  warst  The  tendency  of  the  States  to  these  violations  has 
been  manifested  in  cundry  instances.  The  files  of  Cong!  contain  com- 
plaints already,  from  almost  every  nation  with  which  treaties  have 
been  formed.  Hitherto  indulgence  has  been  shewn  to  us.  This  can 
not  be  the  permanent  disposition  of  foreign  nations.  A  rupture  with 
other  powers  is  among  the  greatest  of  national  calamities.  It  ought 
therefore  to  be  effectually  provided  that  no  part  of  a  nation  shall 
have  it  in  its  power  to  bring  them  on  the  whole.  The  existing  Con- 
federacy does  not  sufficiently  provide  against  this  evil.  The  proposed 
amendment  to  it  does  not  supply  the  omission.  It  leaves  the  will  of 
the  States  as  uncontrouled  as  ever. 

2.  Will  it  prevent  encroachments  on  the  federal  authority  t  A 
tendency  to  such  encroachments  has  been  saflBciently  exemplified, 
among  ourselves,  as  well'  in  every  other  confederated  republic 
antient  and  Modern.  By  the  federal  articles,  transactions  with  the 
Indians  appertain  to  Cong?  Yet  in  several  instances,  the  States  have 
entered  into  treaties  &  wars  with  them.  In  like  manner  no  two  or 
more  States  can  form  among  themselves  any  treaties  &c.  without  the 
consent  of  Cong?  Yet  Virg?  &  Maryf  in  one  instance— Pen?  &  N. 
Jersey  in  another,  have  entered  into  compacts,  without  previoua 
application  or  subsequent  apology.  No  State  again  can  of  right  raise 
troops  in  time  of  peace  without  the  like  consent.  Of  all  cases  of  the 
league,  this  seems  to  require  the  most  scrupulous  observance.  Has 
not  Mass**,  notwithstanding,  the  most  powerful  member  of  the  Union, 
already  raised  a  body  of  troops  t  Is  she  not  now  augmenting  them, 
without  having  even  deigned  to  apprise  Cong!  of  Her  intention?    In 


•  The  figures  "  1 "  and  "  2  "  »re  changed  to  "  first "  and  "  secondly  "  in  the 
transcript.  . 

•  The  word  "  as  "  i*  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  19,  1787 


123 


fine — Have  we  not  seen  the  pnblie  land  dealt  out  to  Con!  to  bribe  her 
acquiescence  in  the  decree  constitutionally  awarded  agf*  her  claim  on 
the  territory  of  Pen'f  for  no  other  possible  motive  can  account  for  the 
policy  of  Congf  in  that  measure! — If  we  recur  to  the  examples  of 
other  confederacies,  we  shall  find  in  all  of  them  the  same  tendency  of 
the  parts  to  encroach  on  the  authority  of  the  whole.  He  then  reviewed 
the  Amphyctionlc  &  Achean  confederacies  among  the  antients,  and 
the  Helvetic,  Germanic  &  Belgic  among  the  modems,  tracing  their 
analogy  to  the  U.  States — in  the  constitution  and  extent  of  their 
federal  authorities — in  the  tendency  of  the  particular  members  to 
usurp  on  these  authorities;  and  to  bring  confusion  &  ruin  on  the 
whole. — He  observed  that  the  plan  of  Mr.  Pat-wn  besides  omitting 
a  controul  over  the  States  as  a  general  defence  of  the  federal  pre- 
rogatives was  particularly  defective  in  two  of  its  provisions.  1.^  Its 
ratification  was  not  to  be  by  the  people  at  large,  but  by  the  hgUlaturet. 
It  could  not  therefore  render  the  Acts  of  Congt  in  pursuance  of  their 
powers,  even  legally  paramount  to  the  Acts  of  the  States.  2.*  It  gave 
to  the  federal  Tribunal  an  appellate  jurisdiction  only — even  in  the 
criminal  cases  enumerated.  The  necessity  of  any  such  provision  sup- 
posed a  danger  of  undue  acquittals  *  in  the  State  tribunals.  Of  what 
avail  c1  *  an  appellate  tribunal  be,  after  an  acquittal  t  Besides  in  most 
if  not  all  of  the  States,  the  Executives  have  by  their  respective  Con- 
ttitutions  the  right  of  pardf  How  eould  this  be  taken  from  them  by 
a  legiilative '  ratification  only  > 

3.  Will  it  prevent  trespasses  of  the  States  on  each  other  t  Of  these 
enough  has  b^n  already  seen.  He  instanced  Acts  of  Virgf  &  Mary- 
land which  give  *  a  preference  to  their  own  Citizens  in  cases  where  the 
Citizens  of  other  States  are  entitled  to  equality  of  privileges  by  the 
Articles  of  Confederation.  He  considered  the  emissions  of  paper 
money  &  other  kindred  measures  as  also  agcrressions.  The  States 
relatively  to  one  an  other  being  each  of  them  either  Debtor  or 
Creditor;  The  creditor  States  must  suffer  unjustly  from  every  emis- 
sion by  the  debtor  States.  We  have  seen  retaliating  acts  on  this 
subject  which  threatened  danger  not  to  the  harmony  only,  but  the 
tranquility  of  the  Union.  The  plan  of  W.  Paterson,  not  giving  even 
a  negative  on  the  acts  of  the  States,  left  them  as  much  at  liberty 
as  ever  to  execute  their  unrighteous  projects  agf  each  other. 


'  The  flgnre  "  1  "  is  cliaoged  to  "  In  the  flrrt  place  "  Jn  the  transcript. 

•  The  figure  "  2  "  is  changed  to  "  and  in  the  lecond  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  acquittals  "  in  the  singular. 

*  The  word  "  would  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  c<> " 
■  The  word  "  legislative  "  is  not  italiciied  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  gave  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  ''  give." 


124      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

4    Will  it  secure  the  internal  tranquility  of  the  States  themselves  t 
The  insurrections  in  Mas."^  admonished  aU  the  States  of  the  danger 
to  which  they  were  exposed.    Yet  the  plan  of  M'  P.  contained  no 
provisions  for  supplying  the  defect  of  the  .^''^''^f  "**"f  °°  *^ 
point.    According  to  the  Republican  theory  indeed,  Right  &  power 
being  both  vested  in  the  majority,  are  held  to  be  synonimouB.    Accord- 
ing to  fact  &  experience,  a  minority  may  in  an  appc  1  to  force  be  an 
overmatch  for  the  majority.    1.^  If  the  minority  happen  to  include 
all  such  as  possess  the  skill  &  habits  of  mUitary  life,  with  such  as 
possess  the  great  pecuniary  resources,  one  third  may  conquer  the  re- 
maining two  thirds.    2.»  one  third  of  those  who  participate  in  the 
choice  of  rulers  may  be  rendered  a  majority  by  the  accession  of  those 
whose  poverty  disqualifies  them  from  a  suffrage,  &  who  for  obvious 
reasons  may  •  be  more  ready  to  join  the  standard  of  sedition  than  that 
of  the*  established  Government.    3.»  where  slavery  exiate,  the  Repub- 
lican Theory  becomes  still  more  fallacioufi. 

5    Will  it  secure  a  good  internal  legislation  &  administration  to 
the  particular  States?     In  developing  the  evils  which  vitiate  the 
political  system  of  the  U.  S.  it  is  proper  to  take  into  view  those  w^ch 
prevail  within  the  States  individually  as  well  as  those  which  affect 
them  collectively:  Since  the  former  indirectly  affect  the  whole;  and 
there  is  great  reason  to  believe  that  the  pressure  of  them  had  a  fuU 
share  in  the  motives  which  produced  the  present  Convention.    Under 
this  head  he  enumerated  and  animadverted  on  l.«  the  multiplicity  of 
the  laws  passed  by  the  several  States.   2.«  the  mutability  of  their  laws. 
3«  the  injustice  of  them.    4.'  the  impotence  of  them:  observing  that 
Mr  Patterson's  plan  contained  no  remedy  for  this  dreadful  class  of 
evils,  and  could  not  therefore  be  received  as  an  adequate  provision 
for  the  exigences  of  the  Community. 

6  WiU  it  secure  the  Union  ag?'  the  influence  of  foreign  powers 
over  its  members.  He  pretended  not  to  say  that  any  such  influence  had 
yet  been  tried:  but  it  was  naturally  to  be  expected  that  occasions 
would  produce  it.  As  lessons  which  claimed  particular  attention,  he 
cite'  the  intrigues  practised  among  the  Amphyctionic  Confederates 
first  by  the  Kings  of  Persia,  and  afterwards  fatally  by  PhUip  of 
Macedon:  among  the  Achcans,  first  by  rJacedon  &  afterwards  no  less 

•  The  fiimre  "  -  "  is  charged  to  "  In  the  tint  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  fSmre  "  2  "  is  changed  to  "  in  the  «econ;    place    m  the  transcript. 
■  Tho  word  "  must "  is  Bubntitiited  in  the  transcript  for     may. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  flifurc  "  3  "  is  changed  to  "  and  in  the  third  pla«».  ■ 

•  The  figures  "  1,"  "  2  "  and  "  3  "  are  changed  to  "  first,"  "  Mcondly     and 

"*"''^e"fi;.^'"T"T.7h^nged  to  "and  fourthly"  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  19,  1787 


125 


fatally  by  Rome:  among  the  Swiss  by  Austria,  France  &  the  leaser 
neighboaring  powers :  among  the  members  of  the  Germanic  Body  by 
France,  England,  Spain  &  Buasia— :  and  in  the  Belgic  Republic,  by  all 
the  great  neighbouring  powers.  The  plan  of  MT  Patterson,  not  giving 
to  the  general  Councils  any  negative  on  the  will  of  the  particular 
States,  left  the  door  open  for  the  like  pernicious  machinations  among 
ourselves. 

7  He  begged  the  smaller  States  which  were  most  attached  to 
Mr  Pattersons  plan  to  consider  the  situation  in  which  it  would  leave 
them.  In  the  first  place  they  would  continue  to  bear  the  whole 
expence  of  maintaining  their  Delegates  in  Congress.  It  ought  not 
to  be  said  that  if  they  were  willing  to  bear  this  burden,  no  others 
had  a  right  to  complain.  As  far  as  it  led  the  small  States  tc  forbear 
keeping  up  a  representation,  by  which  the  public  business  was  delayed, 
it  was  evidently  a  matter  of  common  concern.  An  examination  of  the 
minutes  of  Congress  would  satisfy  every  one  that  the  public  business 
had  been  frequently  delayed  by  this  cause ;  and  that  the  States  most 
frequently  unrepresented  in  Cong?  were  not  the  larger  States.  He  re- 
minded the  convention  of  another  consequence  of  leaving  on  a  small 
State  the  burden  of  maintaining  a  Representation  in  Cong!  During 
a  considerable  period  of  the  "War,  one  of  the  Representatives  of  Dela- 
ware, in  whom  alone  before  the  signing  of  the  Confederation  the 
entire  vote  of  that  State  and  after  that  event  one  half  of  its  vote, 
frequently  resided,  was  a  Citizen  &  Resident  of  Pen?  and  held  an 
ofiice  in  his  own  State  incompatible  with  an  appointment  from  it  to 
Cong!  During  another  period,  the  same  State  was  represented  by 
three  delegates  two  of  whom  were  citizens  of  Penn?  and  the  third  a 
Citizen  of  New  Jersey.  These  expedients  must  have  been  intended 
to  avoid  the  burden  of  supporting  delegates  from  their  own  State. 
But  whatever  might  have  been  y  <  anse,  was  not  in  effect  the  vote  of 
one  State  doubled,  and  the  influence  of  another  increased  by  itf  In 
the  24  place  The  coercion,  on  which  the  efiScacy  of  the  plan  depends, 
can  never  be  exerted  but  on  themselves.  The  larger  States  will  be 
impregnable,  the  smaller  only  can  feel  the  vengeance  of  it.  He 
illustrated  the  position  by  the  history  of  the  Amphyctionic  Con- 
federates: and  the  ban  of  the  German  Empire.  It  was  the  cobweb 
w^  could  entangle  the  weak,  but  would  be  the  sport  of  the  strong. 

8.  He  begged  them  to  consider  the  situation  in  which  they  would 
remain  in  case  their  pertinacious  adherence  to  an  inadmissible  plan, 
should  prevent  the  adoption  of  any  plan.  The  contemplation  of  such 
an  event  was  painful ;  but  it  would  be  prudent  to  submit  to  the  task 
of  examining  it  at  a  distance,  tiiat  the  means  of  escaping  it  might  be 


ill 


126      DEBATES  IN  THE  FED!LRAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

the  more  readily  embr.ced.    Let  the  Union  of  the  State.  ^J  di-oWed 
lid  one  o£  two  consequence,  must  happen.    Either  the  States  muat 
remain  individuaUy  independent  &  sovereign;  or  two  <"^  mo"  C°°- 
Xacies  must  be  formed  among  them.    In  the  first  event  wo^Ud  the 
Ss'teTbe  more  secure  ag.«  the  ambition  &  power  of  their  a^er 
i^ighbours,  than  they  would  be  under  a  general  Government  per- 
vadCwitk  equal  energy  every  part  of  the  Empire,  and  having  an 
equal  interest  in  protecting  every  part  agS«  every  other  partt    In  the 
rend,  can  the  smaller  expect  that  their  larger  °««^^7  '"^^^ 
confederate  with  them  on  the  principle  of  the  present  confederacy 
wS  gives  to  each  member,  an  equal  suffrage;  or  that  they  would 
exact  less  severe  concessions  from  the  smaller  States,  than  are  pro- 
posed in  the  scheme  of  IK  Randolph  T 

The  great  difficulty  lies  in  the  affair  of  Representation ;  and  if  thu 
could  be  adjusted,  all  others  would  be  sunnountable.     It  was  ad- 
mitted  by  both  the  gentlemen  from  N.  Jersey,  [M^  Brearly  and  iK 
Patterson]  that  it  would  not  be  jmt  to  Mow  V»rjr?  which  was  16 
times  as  large  as  Delaware  an  equal  vote  only     Their  language  was 
that  it  would  not  be  safe  for  Delaware  to  allow  Virgt  f  t"^*''  " 
many  votes.    The  expedient  proposed  by  them  was  that  all  the  States 
should  be  thrown  into  one  mass  and  a  new  partition  be  made  into 
13  equal  parts.    Would  such  a  scheme  be  practicable!     The  dis- 
similarities existing  in  the  rules  of  property,  as  weU  as  in  the  man- 
ners, habits  and  prejudices  of  the^  different  States,  a«^ounted  to  a 
prohibition  of  the  attempt.    It  had  been  found  ^P'^'W*  for  the 
power  of  one  of  the  most  absolute  princes  m  Europe  [K.  of  France] 
directed  by  the  wisdom  of  one  of  the  most  enlightened  and  patriotic 
Minister  [M-.  Neckar]  that  any  age  has  produced  ^  e^^.^^;  ^ 
some  points  only  the  different  usages  &  regulations  of  the  different 
provinces.    But  admitting  a  general  amalgamation  and  repartition  of 
the  States  to  be  practicable,  and  the  danger  apprehended  by  the 
smaller  States  from  a  proportional  representation  to  be  red;  would 
not  a  particular  and  voluntary  coalition  of  these  with  their  neigh- 
bours, be  less  inconvenient  to  the  whole  community,  and  equally 
effectual  for  their  own  safety.    If  N.  Jersey  or  Delaware  conceived 
that  an  advantage  would  accrue  to  them  from  an  equalization  of  the 
States,  in  which  case  they  would  necessaryly  form  a  junction  with 
their  neighbours,  why  might  not  this  end  be  attained  by  leaving  them 
at  Uberty  by  the  Constitution  to  form  such  a  junction  whenever  they 
pleased?    And  why  should  they  wish  to  obtrude  a  like  arrangement 


•  The  vord  "  the  "  i«  croiaed  out  in  the  tnuaicript. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  JUNE  19,  1787 


127 


on  all  the  States,  when  it  waa,  to  aay  the  least,  extremely  difBcolt, 
would  be  obnoxiona  to  many  of  the  itates,  and  when  neither  the 
inconveniency,'  nor  the  benefit  of  the  expedient  to  themselves,  would 
be  lessened,  by  confining  it  to  themselves. — The  prospect  of  many  new 
States  to  the  Westward  waa  another  consideration  of  importance.  If 
they  should  come  into  the  Union  at  all,  they  would  come  when  they 
contained  but  few  inhabitants.  If  they  sh'!  be  entitled  to  vote  accord- 
ing to  their  proportions  of  inhabitants,  all  would  be  right  &  safe. 
Let  them  have  an  equal  vote,  and  a  more  objectionable  minority  than 
ever  might  give  law  to  the  whole. 

On  a  question  for  postponing  generally  the  1!*  proposition  of 
W-  Patterson 's  plan,  it  was  agreed  to :  N.  Y.  &  N  J.  only  being  no— 

On  the  question  moved  by  Mt  King  whether  the  Committee  should 
rise  &  M?  Randolphs  propositions  be  re-reportcd  without  alteration, 
which  waa  in  fact  a  question  whether  M'.  R's  should  be  adhered  to  as 
preferable  to  those  of  JP  Patterson: 

Mass?  ay.  Con*  ay.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  no.  P»  ay.  Del.  no.  Ml 
div^    V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

Insert  here  from  Printed  Journal  p.  13 »  copy  of  the  Resol?*  of  Mt 
R.  as  altered  in  the  Com*  and  reported  to  the  House  * 

[State  of  the  resolutions  submitted  to  the  consideration  of  the 
House  by  the  honorable  Mr.  Randolph,  as  altered,  amended,  and  agreed 
to,  in  a  Committee  of  the  whole  House. 


1.  Beiolved     that  it  ii  the  opinion  of  thit  Committee  that  a  national  f^vern- 

ment  ought  to  be  eatabliihed  conaiiting  of  a  Supreme  Legiila- 
tiTe,  Judiciary,  and  Executive. 

2.  Seiolved.    that  the  national  Legislature  ought  to  coniist  of  Two  Branchea. 
8     Besdved     that  the  members  of  the  first  branch  of  the  national  Legislature 

ought  to  be  elected  by  the  People  of  the  several  States  for  the 
term  of  Three  years,  to  receive  fired  stipends,  by  which  they 
may  be  compenaated  for  the  devotion  of  tiieir  tune  to  public 
service  to  be  paid  out  of  the  National-Treasury,  to  be  ineligible 
to  any  OfBce  established  by  n  particular  State  or  under  the 
authority  of  the  United-SUtes  (except  those  peculiarly  be- 
longing to  the  functions  of  the  first  branch)  during  the  term 
of  service,  and  under  the  national  government  for  the  space 
of  one  year  after  it's  expiration. 


*  Tlw  ^otA  "  inconrenieney "  ia  changed  to  "  Inconvenience "  in  the  tran- 
script. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Pennsyl- 
vania, Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  GeorgU,  aye— 7:  New  York, 
New  Jeraay,  DeUware,  no— 8;  Mairland  divided." 

•  Found  at  page  134  instead  of  page  IS,  and  here  printed  from  the  original 
manuscript  deposited  in  the  Department  of  State  by  President  Washington. 

♦  Madison  s  direction  concerning  Mr.  Randolph's  Beaolutiona  and  the  Reso- 
lutions themselves  are  omitted  in  the  trmnacript. 


128      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


«     BMolved. 


6.    RcwWed 
A,    Reiolved. 


7.    BMolved. 


8  Resolved. 

9  Resolved. 


10  Resolved. 

11  Resolved. 


12     Resolved. 
IS     Resolved 

14.    Resolved 


that  the  members  ol  the  second  Brsnch  of  the  Mttonsl  LeglsUtur. 

T^ht  to  be  .vaossn  by  the  iiidividusl  .Lrgi-l-""""'  ".'  ,V,  ^."^ 
•«  of  thirty  yesT.  st  les.t.  to  hold  their  oflSces  for  •  Urm 
•Offlclent  to  eisure  their  Independency,  namely  seven  years. 
rVecelve  fixed  stipend.,  by  wlUch  they  m.y  b.  "f  P*""^ 
for  th.  devotion  of  their  time  to  public  servlc— to  be  psld  out 
of  the  Nstion.1  Treasury  to  be  Ineligible  to  any  office  estab- 
llihed  bv  a  particular  hute,  or  under  the  authority  ol  tha 
United  States  (except  those  peculiarly  belonging  to  Che  func- 
tlons  of  the  second  branch)  during  the  term  of  service,  and 
under  the  national  gov    lunent,  for  the  space  of  one  year  aftar 

thi't"  ',iSh"bi!i!lich   ought  to   posses,   th.   right  of   originating 

tut 'the  national  Legislature  ought  to  be  en»Pow>;'d  to  enjoy  the 
legl.Utlve  rights  vested  In  Congress  by  th.  confederatlon-and 
moreover  to  legislate  in  all  c.^  to  which  th.  mdmsU  Stat., 
are  incompetent:  or  In  which  th.  hannonv  of  the  Lnlted 
SUtes  may  b.  Interrupted  by  the  exercise  of  Individual  legis- 
lation, to  negative  all  laws  paswid  by  the  several  Statw  con- 
travening, In  the  opinion  o^  the  national  Legislature,  the 
articles  of  union,  or  any  tre*U«i  subsisting  UBd.r  the  authority 

that  the"  right  of  suffrage  In  the  first  branch  of  th.  national 
LegisUtui*  ought  not  to  b.  according  to  th.  rul.  established 
in  th.  articles  of  confederation:  but  according  to  some  equitable 
ratio  of  represenution— namely,  In  proportion  to  the  whole 
number  of  white  and  other  free  cltUens  and  inhaWtants  of 
every  aoc,  sm,  and  condition  including  those  bound  to  servitude 
for  a  term  of  years,  and  three  fifths  of  all  other  persons  not 
comprehended  In  the  foregoing  description,  except  Indians,  not 
paymg  taxes  in  each  SUU.  .     -  ».         *.     .i 

that  the  right  of  suffrage  in  the  s«wnd  branch  of  the  national 
Legislature  ought  to  be  according  to  the  rul.  Mtablish«l  for 

the  first.  ,  ...         .     ■ 

that  a  national  Executive  be  Instituted  to  consist  of  a  singl. 
person,   to   be   chosen   by   the   National   LegisUture.   for   th. 
term   of   seven    years,    with   power   to   carry   into   MMCution 
the  national  Laws,  to  appoint  to  Offices  in  cases  not  otherwise 
provided  for  to  b.  ineligible  a  second  time,  and  to  be  re- 
movable on  impeachment  and  conviction  of  mal  practice  or 
neglect  of  duty,  to  receive  a  fixed  stipend,  by  which  he  may 
be  compensated  for  the  devotion  of  his  time  to  public  service 
to  be  paid  out  of  the  national  Treasury, 
that  the  national  executive  shall  have  a  right  to  negative  any 
legislative  act:   which  shall  not  be  afterwards  passed  unless 
by  two  third  parts  of  Mch  branch  of  the  national  Legislature, 
that  a  national  Judiciary  iie  established  to  consist  of  One  Su- 
preme Tribunal.    The  Judges  of  which  to  he  appointed  by  the 
second   Branch   of   the   National   Legislature,     to  hold   their 
offices  during  good  behaviour  to  receive,  punctually,  at  stated 
times,  a  fixed  compensation  for  their  services:   in  which  no 
encrease  or  diminution  shall  be  made  so  as  to  affect  the  persona 
actually  in  office  at  the  time  of  such  encrease  or  diminution  _ 
That  the  national  Legislature  be  empowered  to  appoint  inferior 

Tribunals, 
that  the  iurisdiction  of  the  national  Judiciary  shaU  extend  to 
cases  which  respect  the  collMtlon  of  the  naUonal  revenue: 
impeachments  of  any  national  officers  i  and  quMtions  which 
involve  the  national  peace  and  harmony, 
that  provision  ought  to  be  made  for  the  admission  of  States, 
lawfully    arising    within   th.    limits    of    th.    United    States, 


IS.    RtMlvfd. 


18     Rcwlvad. 


10       BiMlTMi. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  19,  1787  129 

whathcr  froa  a  Toluatory  Jimetkm  of  fortnuBMit  aad  UrrI' 
torj,  or  othrrwlM.  with  tiM  oonMDt  of  •  numbtr  of  voicM  ^ 
Ui«  Mtional  Uei«Uture  In?  than  the  whole, 
that  proviiion  oufht  to  b*  mad*  for  tha  oontinnaiiea  of  CoogrMi 
and  thair  authoritie*  until  a  given  day  after  the  refunn  of  thv 
artleln  of  Union  ehall  be  adopted;  and  tor  tha  completion  of 
all  their  anngemeati. 

16.  Rcaolred     that  a  republican  conititution,  and  its  axiatlag  lawi,  ought  to 

be  guaranteed  to  each  8teto  by  tha  Unit«l  SUtea. 

17.  RewlTed.    that   proviiion  ought  to  be  made   for  the  aoMadmant  of  the 
article*  of  I'nlou,  whenioever  It  ihall  iMm  naeeaaary. 

that  the  Legialative,  Executive,  and  Judiciarr  powera  within 
the  wveral  Stetaa  ought  to  ha  bound  by  oath  to  rapport  the 
article*  of  Union. 

that  the  amendment*  which  ehall  be  offered  to  the  confederation 
by  the  Convention,  ought  at  a  proper  time  or  timea,  after  the 
approbation  of  Congreaa  to  be  lulimttted  to  an  a*«embly  or 
aaaembllee  of  repreientatlvc*.  recommended  by  the  eeveral 
iMrialaturm  to  he  ezpreaaly  ahoaaa  by  tha  Peopla  to  consider 
and  decide  theraon. 

(Of »  Ml  Randolph'*  plan  as  reported  from  the  Committee) '.  the 
1.  propos:  "  that  a  Nat!  Gov?  ought  to  be  eatablished  conaisting  4c." 
being  taken  up  in  the  House.* 

Mt  Wilson  obaerved  that  by  a  Nat!  Govi  he  did  not  mean  one 
that  would  swallow  up  the  State  Govi"  as  seemed  to  be  wished  by 
some  gentlemen.  He  was  tenacious  of  the  idea  of  preserving  the 
latter.  He  thought,  contrary  to  the  opinion  of  [Col.  Hamilton]  that 
they  might  not  only  subsist  but  subsist  on  friendly  terms  with  the 
former.  They  were  absolutely  necessary  for  certain  purposes  which 
the  former  could  not  reach.  All  large  Governments  must  be  sub- 
divided into  lesser  jurisdictions.  As  Examples  he  mentioned  Persia, 
Rome,  and  particularly  the  divisions  &  subdivisions  of  England  by 
Alfred. 

Col.  Hamilton  coincided  with  the  proposition  as  it  stood  in  the 
Report.  He  had  not  been  understood  yesterday.  By  an  abolition  of 
the  States,  he  meant  that  no  boundary  could  be  drawn  between  the 
National  &  State  Legislatures;  that  the  former  must  therefore  have 
indefinite  authority.  If  it  were  limited  at  all,  the  rivalship  of  the 
States  would  gradually  subvert  it.  Even  as  Corporations  the  extent 
of  some  of  them  as  V?  Mass'?  4c.  would  be  formidable.  As  States,  he 
thought  they  ought  to  be  abolished.  But  he  admitted  the  necessity  of 
leaving  in  them,  subordinate  jurisdictions.  The  examples  of  Persia 
4  the  Roman  Empire,  cited  by  [W  Wilson]  were  he  thought  in  favor 
of  his  doctrine:  the  great  powers  delegated  to  the  Satraps  4  pro- 


•  The  word  "  of  "  i*  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

"The  word*  "June  13  being  before  the  houae"  are  here  inaertad  in  tha 
trasBcript. 

•  The  word*  "  in  the  Houae  "  arc  omitted  In  the  tranieript. 


130      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 
coMul«,  having  frequently  produced  revolt*,  and  schemea  of  Inde- 

penilenee.  •»•       .v  ♦ 

M'  K.NO,  wi»hed  aa  every  thing  dopendtd  on  this  proposition,  tnai 
no  objectiona  might  be  improperly   indulged  agl'  the  phrweology 
of  it.    He  conceived  that  the  import  of  the  terma  "  Statea         Soycf 
eignty  "  "  national  "  "  federal,"  had  been  often  uaed  &  applied  m 
the  diwusaiona  inaccurately  &   dcluaively.     The  SUtea  were   not 
"  Sovereigna  "  in  the  acnse  contended  for  by  aorac.    They  did  not 
posaeaa  the  pecuUar  features  of  sovereignty,  they  could  not  make 
war    nor  peace,  nor  alliantes  nor  treatiea.     Considering  them  M 
political  Beings,  they  were  dumb,  for  they  could  not  speak  to  any 
foreign  Sovereign  whatever.     They  were  deaf,  for  they  could  not 
hear  any  propositions  from  such  Sovereigu.    They  had  not  even  the 
organs  or  faculties  of  defence  or  offence,  for  they  could  not  of  them- 
selves  raise  troops,  or  equip  vessels,  for  war.    On  the  other  side,  if 
the  Union  of  the  States  comprizes  the  idea  of  a  confederation,  it 
comprizes  that  also  of  consolidation.     A  Union  of  the  States  is  a 
Union  of  the  mm  composing  them,  from  whence  a  national  character 
results  to  the  whole.  Cong?  can  f  t  alone  without  the  Statea-they  can 
act  &  their  acts  will  be  binding  agf  the  Instructions  of  the  SUtea.    If 
thev  declare  war:  war  is  de  jure  declared— captures  made  in  pur- 
suance of  it  are  lawful— No  acta  of  the  States  can  vary  the  situation, 
or  prevent  the  judicial  conaequences.    If  the  States  therefore  reUined 
some  portion  of  their  sovereignty,  they  had  certainly  divcated  them- 
selves  of  essential  portions  of  it.    If  they  formed  a  confederacy  in 
some  respecta-they  formed  a  Nation  in  other»-The  Convention 
could  clearly  deliberate  on  &  propose  any  alterations  that  Cong?  could 
have  done  under  y?  federal  articles,  and  could  not  Cong*  propose  by 
virtue  of  the  last  article,  a  change  in  any  article  whatever:  and  as 
well  that  relating  to  the  equality  of  suffrage,  aa  any  other.    He  made 
these  remarks  to  obviate  some  scruples  which  had  been  expreaaed. 
He  doubted  much  the  practicability  of  annihilating  the  States;  but 
thought  that  much  of  their  power  ought  to  be  taken  from  them. 

M:  Martin,  said  he  considered  that  the  separation  from  O.  B. 
placed  the  13  States  in  a  state  of  Nature  towards  each  other;  that  they 
would  have  remained  in  that  state  till  this  time,  but  for  the  confedera- 
tion-  that  they  entered  into  the  confederation  on  the  footing  of 
equality  •  that  they  met  now  to  to  amend  it  on  the  same  footing;  and 
that  he  could  never  accede  to  a  plan  that  would  introduce  an  in- 
equality and  lay  10  States  at  the  mercy  of  V»  Mass?  and  Penn* 

M!  Wilson  could  not  admit  the  doctrine  that  when  the  Colonies 
became  independent  of  G.  Britain,  they  became  independent  also  of 


SESSION  OF  WEDNES^  \T,  JXJNB  20,  1787 


181 


Mwh  other.  He  re«d  the  deelftntion  of  Independence,  obMrring 
thereon  that  the  Unittd  CoUmiei  were  declared  to  b«  free  t  inde- 
pendent States;  and  inferring  that  they  were  independent,  not  ti»- 
dwidmlly  but  Unitedly  and  that  they  were  emifederated  aa  they 
were  independent,  Statcw. 

Col.  Hamilton,  awented  to  the  doctrine  of  Ml  Wibmn.  He  denied 
the  doctrine  that  the  Utatea  were  thrown  into  a  State  of  Nature  He 
was  not  yet  prepared  to  admit  the  doctrine  that  the  Confederacy, 
could  be  diiKlved  by  partial  infractions  of  it  He  admitted  that  the 
States  met  now  on  an  equal  footing  but  could  see  no  inference  from 
that  acraintt  concerting  a  change  of  the  system  in  this  particular. 
He  took  this  occasion  of  observing  for  the  purpose  of  appeasing  the 
fears  of  the  small  States,  that  two  circumstances  would  render 
them  secure  under  a  National  Gov?  in  which  they  might  lose  the 
equality  of  rank  they  now  held:  one  was  the  local  situation  of 
the  3  lar^t  SUtes  VirgT  Mas",  it  P*  They  were  separated  from 
•ach  other  by  distance  of  place,  and  equally  so,  by  all  the  peculiarities 
which  distinguish  the  interests  of  one  State  from  those  of  another. 
No  combination  therefore  could  be  dreaded.  In  the  second  place,  aa 
there  waa  a  gradation  in  the  States  from  V*  the  largest  down  to  Dela- 
ware the  smallest,  it  would  always  happen  that  ambitious  combinations 
among  a  few  States  might  ft  w^  be  counteracted  by  defensive  com- 
binations of  greater  extent  among  the  rest.  No  combination  has  been 
wen  among*  large  Counties  merely  as  such,  ag^'  leaser  Countiea. 
The  more  close  the  Union  of  the  States,  and  the  more  compleat  the 
authority  of  the  whole:  the  less  opportunity  will  be  allowed*  the 
stronger  States  to  injure  the  weaker. 

Adj< 


Wkdnesdat  June  20.  1787.*     In  Convention 

Mt  William  Blount  from  N.  Carolina  took  b's  seat 

1?  propos :  ♦  of  the  Report  of  Com*  of  the  wbnt»  •  before  the  House. 

Mr  EtiSiirwoRTH  2*?"  by  M*.  Gorraii,  iroves  to  alter  it  so  as  to 

nm  "  that  the  Government  of  the  United  States  ought  to  consist  of  a 

aapreme  legislative,  Ezeeative  and  Judiciary."    This  alteration  he 


'  The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  iaMTted  in  the  tranirript. 

•  The  word  "  to  "  is  here  Inserted  »n  the  tntnacript. 

•  The  yesf  "  1T87  "  it  omitted  In  the  transcript. 

*Tbe  words  "The  first  Resolntion"  are  eubstitnted  in  ths  traasertet  fee 
'  1«*  propos." 

'  Tke  word  "  beins  "  is  here  Iwwrtcd  in  the  truseriDt 


132    DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

■aid  would  drop  the  word  natiotua,  and  retain  the  proper  title  "  th« 
United  States. "  He  cou  d  not  admit  the  doctrine  that  a  breach  of  any 
of  the  federal  articles  could  dissolve  the  whole.  It  would  be  highly 
dangerous  not  to  consider  the  Confederation  as  still  subsisting.  He 
wished  also  the  plan  of  the  Convention  to  go  forth  as  an  amendment 
to » the  articles  of »  Confederation,  since  under  this  idea  the  authority 
of  the  Legislatures  could  ratify  it.  If  they  are  unwilling,  the  people 
wiU  be  so  too.  If  the  plan  goes  forth  to  the  people  for  ratification 
several  succeeding  Conventions  within  the  States  would  be  unavoid- 
able. He  did  not  like  these  conventions.  They  were  better  fitted  to 
pull  down  than  to  build  up  Constitutions. 

M!  Randolph,  did  not  object  to  the  change  of  expression,  but 
apprised  the  gentlemen »  who  wished  for  it  that  he  did  not  admit  it  for 
the  reasons  assigned;  particularly  that  of  getting  rid  of  a  reference 
to  the  people  for  ratification.  The  motion  of  M!  EUsew*  was  acqui- 
esced in  nem:  con:  •_*    j 

The  2*  Resol:  "  that  the  national  Legislature  ought  to  consist  at 
two  branches  "*  taken  up,  the  word  "  national  "  struck  out  as  of 

course.  , 

m  Lansdjo,  observed  that  the  true  question  here  was,  whether 
the  Convention  would  adhere  to  or  depart  from  the  foundation  of 
the  present  Confederacy;  and  moved  instead  of  the  2?  Resolution, 
"  that  the  powers  of  Legislation  be  vested  in  the  U.  States  in  Con- 
gress." He  had  already  assigned  two  reasons  ag?'  such  an  innovation 
as  was  proposed:  1."  the  want  of  competent  powers  in  the  Conven- 
tion.—2.»  the  state  of  the  public  mind.  It  had  been  observed  by 
[MT  Madison]  in  discussing  the  first  point,  that  in  two  States  the 
Delegates  to  Cong!  were  chosen  by  the  people.  Notwithstanding  the 
first  appearance  of  this  remark,  it  had  in  fact  no  weight,  as  the  Dele- 
pates  however  chosen,  did  not  represent  the  people  merely  as  so  many 
individuals;  but  as  forming  a  Sovereign  State.  [\n  Randolph]  put 
it,  he  said,  on  its  true  footing  namely  that  the  public  safety  superseded 
the  scruple  arising  from  the  review  of  our  powers.  But  in  order  to 
feel  the  force  of  this  consideration,  the  same  impression  must  be  had 
of  the  public  danger.  He  had  not  himself  the  same  impression,  and 
could  not  therefore  dismiss  his  scruple.  [Ml  Wilson]  contended  that 
as  the  Convention  were  only  to  recommend,  they  might  recommend 


'to.' 


•  The  word  "  of  "  is  subBtituted  in  the  transcript  for 

•  The  word  "  the  "  i«  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  word  "  (fentlemen  "  is  used  in  the  sinifular  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  beinR"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcrij-". 

•  T^e  figures  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  first "  and  "  secondly  »  in  tli« 
transcript. 


mm 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JUNE  20,  1787 


183 


what  they  pleued.    He  differed  much  trom  him.   Any  act  whatever  of 
BO  respectable  a  body  muat  have  a  great  effect,  and  if  it  does  not 
succeed,  will  be  a  source  of  great  diisentions.    He  admitted  that  ther* 
was  no  certain  criterion  of  the  public  mind  on  the  subject.    He  there- 
fore recurred  to  the  evidence  of  it  given  by  the  opposition  in  the 
States  to  the  scheme  of  an  Impost.    It  eoold  not  be  expected  that 
those  possessing  Sovereignty  could  ever  voluntarily  part  with  it.    It 
was  not  to  be  expected  from  any  one  State,  much  less  from  thirteen. 
He  proceeded  to  make  srme  observations  on  the  plan  itself  and  the 
argum**.  urged  in  support  of  it.    The  point  of  Representation  could 
receive  no  elucidation  from  the  case  of  England.    The  corruption  of 
the  boroughs  did  not  proceed  from  their  comparative  smallness:  but 
from  the  actual  fewness  of  the  inhabitants,  some  of  them  not  having 
more  than  one  or  two.    A  great  inequality  existed  in  the  Counties 
of  England.    Tet  the  like  complaint  of  peculiar  corruption  in  the 
small  ones  had  not  been  made.    It  had  been  said  that  Congress  rep- 
resent the  State  prejudices:  will  not  any  other  body  whether  chosen 
by  the  Legislatures  or  people  of  the  States,  also  represent  their 
prejudices!    It  had  been  asserted  by  his  colleague  [Col.  Hamilton] 
that  there  was  no  coincidence  of  interests  among  the  large  States  that 
ought  to  excite  fears  of  oppression  in  the  smaller.   If  it  were  true  that 
such  a  uniformity  of  interests  existed  among  the  States,  there  was 
equal  safety  for  all  of  them,  whether  the  representation  remained  as 
heretofore,  or  were  proportioned  as  now  proposed.    It  is  proposed 
that  the  Gea'  Legislature  shall  have  a  negative  on  the  laws  of  the 
States.    Is  it  conceivable  that  there  will  be  leisure  for  such  a  taskt 
there  will  on  the  most  moderate  calculation,  be  as  many  Acts  sent 
up  f  KHn  the  States  as  there  are  days  in  the  year.    Will  the  members 
of  the  general  Legislature  be  competent  Judges  t    Will  a  gentleman 
from  Georgia  be  a  Judge  of  the  expediency  of  a  law  which  is  to 
operate  in  N.  Hamshire.    Such  u  Negative  would  be  more  injurious 
than  that  of  Great  Britain  heretofore  was.     It  is  said  that  the 
National  Gov^  must  have  the  influence  arising  from  the  grant  of 
ofBces  and  honors.    In  order  to  render  such  a  Government  effectual 
he  believed  such  an  influence  to  be  necessary.     But  if  the  States 
will  not  agree  to  it,  it  is  in  vain,  worse  than  in  vain  to  make  the 
proposition.    If  this  influence  is  to  be  attained,  the  States  must  be 
entirely  abolished.    Will  any  one  say  this  would  ever  be  agreed  tof 
He  doubted  whether  any  Gen?  Government  equally  beneficial  to  all 
can  be  attained.    That  now  under  consideration  he  is  sure,  must  be 
utterly  unattainable.     He  had  another  objection.     The  system  was 
too  novel  &  complex.    No  man  could  foresee  what  its  operation  will 


134     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

be  either  with  respect  to  the  Geni  Gov?  or  the  State  Govl    One  or 
other  it  has  been  surmised  must  absorb  the  whole. 

Col.  Mason,  did  not  expect  this  point  would  have  been  reagitated. 
The  essential  differences  between  the  two  plans,  had  been  clearly  stated. 
The  principal  objections  ag*  that  of  Ml  R.  were  the  want  of  power 
&  the  want  of  practicability.    There  can  be  no  weight  in  the  first 
as  the  fiat  is  not  to  be  lure,  but  in  the  people.    He  thought  with  his 
colleague  M^  R.  that  there  were  besides  certain  crisises,  in  which  all 
the  ordinary  cautions  yielded  to  public  necessity.    He  gave  as  an 
example,  the  eventual  Treaty  with  G.  B.  in  forming  which  the 
Comrs.  of  the  U.  S.  had  boldly  disregarded  the  improvident  shackles 
of  Congf  had  given  to  their  Country  an  honorable  &  happy  peace,  and 
instead  of  being  censured  for  the  transgression  of  their  powers,  had 
raised  to  themselves  a  monument  more  durable  than  brass.     The 
impracticability  of  gaining  the  public  concurrence  he  thought  waa 
still  more  groundless.    [Ml  Lansing]  had  cited  the  attempts  of  Con- 
gress to  gain  an  enlargement  of  their  jKiwers,  and  had  inferred  from 
the  miscarriage  of  these  attempts,  the  hopelessness  of  the  plan  which 
he  [M^  L]  opposed.    He  thought  a  ver/  different  inference  ought  to 
have  been  drawn ;  viz  that  the  plan  which  [M^  L]  espoused,  and  which 
proposed  to  augment  the  powers  of  Congress,  never  could  be  expected 
to  succeed.   He  meant  not  to  throw  any  reflections  on  Cong*,  as  a  body, 
much  less  on  any  particular  members  of  it.    He  meant  however  to 
speak  his  sentiments  without  reserve  on  this  subject ;  it  was  a  privilege 
of  Age,  and  perhaps  the  only  compensation  which  nature  had  given 
for  the  privation  of  so  many  other  enjoyments:  and  he  should  not 
scruple  to  exercise  it  freely.    Is  it  to  be  thought  that  the  people  of 
America,  so  watchful  over  their  interests ;  so  jealous  of  their  liberties, 
will  give  up  their  all,  will  surrender  both  the  sword  and  the  purse, 
to  the  same  body,  and  that  too  not  chosen  immediately  by  themselves  t 
They  never  will.   They  never  ought.   Will  they  trust  such  a  body,  with 
the  regulation  of  their  trade,  with  the  regulation  of  their  taxes;  with 
all  the  other  great  powers,  which  are  in  contemplation  t   Will  they  give 
unbounded  confidence  to  a  secret  Journal— to  the  intrigues— to  the 
factions  which  in  the  nature  of  things  appertain  to  such  an  Assembly  t 
If  any  man  doubts  the  existence  of  these  characters  of  Congress,  let 
him  consult  their  Journals  for  the  years  78,  79,  &  80.— It  will  be 
said,  that  if  the  people  are  averse  to  parting  with  power,  why  is  it 
hoped  that  they  will  part  with  it  to  a  National  Legislature.    The 
proper  answer  is  that  in  this  case  they  do  not  part  with  power: 
they  only  transfer  it  from  one  sett  of  immediate  Representatives  to 
another  sett.— Much  has  been  said  of  the  unsettled  state  of  the  mind 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  JUNE  20,  1787 


135 


of  the  people,  he  believed  the  mind  of  the  people  of  America,  u 
elsewhere,  was  unsettled  as  to  some  points;  bat  settled  as  to  others. 
In  two  points  he  was  sure  it  was  well  settled.  1.'  in  an  attachment 
to  Republican  Government.  2.^  in  an  attachment  to  more  than  one 
branch  in  the  Legislature.  Their  constitutions  accord  so  generally  in 
both  these  circumstances,  that  they  seem  almost  to  have  been  pre- 
concerted. This  must  either  have  been  a  miracle,  or  have  resulted 
from  the  genius  of  the  people.  The  only  exceptions  to  the  establishm^ 
of  two  branches  in  the  Legislatures  are  the  State  of  P!  &  Cong*,  and 
the  latter  the  only  single  one  not  chosen  by  the  people  themselves. 
What  has  been  the  consequence!  The  people  have  been  constantly 
averse  to  giving  that  Body  further  powers — ^It  was  acknowledged  by 
[M*  Patterson]  that  his  plan  could  not  be  enforced  without  military 
coertion.  Does  he  consider  the  force  of  this  concession.  The  most 
jarring  elements  of  Nature;  fire  ft  water  themselves  are  not  more 
incompatible  that*  such  a  mixture  of  civil  liberty  and  military 
execution.  Will  the  militia  march  from  one  State  to*  another,  in 
order  to  collect  the  arrears  of  taxes  f  ronr  the  delinquent  members  of 
the  Republic!  Will  they  maintain  an  army  for  this  purpose!  Will 
not  the  Citizens  of  the  invaded  State  assist  one  another  till  they  rise 
as  one  Man,  and  shake  off  the  Union  altogether.  Rebellion  is  the 
only  case,  in  which  the  military  force  of  the  State  can  be  properly 
exerted  ag<  its  Citizens.  In  one  point  of  view  he  was  struck  with 
horror  at  the  prospect  of  recurring  to  this  expedient.  To  punish  the 
non-payment  of  taxes  with  death,  was  a  severity  not  yet  adopted  by 
despotism  itself:  yet  this  unexampled  cruelty  would  be  mercy  com- 
pared to  a  military  collection  of  revenue,  in  which  the  bayonet  could 
make  no  discrimination  between  the  innocent  and  the  guilty.  He 
took  this  occasion  to  repeat,  that  notwithstanding  his  solicitude  to 
establish  a  national  Government,  he  never  would  agree  to  abolish  the 
State  Gov*f  or  render  them  absolutely  insignificant.  They  were  as 
necessary  as  the  GenJ  <3ov^  and  he  would  be  equally  careful  to  pre- 
serve them.  He  was  aware  of  the  difficulty  of  drawing  the  line  be- 
tween them,  but  hoped  it  was  not  insurmountable.  The  Convention, 
tho'  comprising  so  many  distinguished  characters,  could  not  be  ex- 
pected to  make  a  faultless  Gov?  And  he  would  prefer  trusting  to 
posterity  the  amendment  of  its  defects,  rather  than  to  push  the  ex- 
periment too  far. 


« The  fignrea  "  1 "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  flrat "  and  "  aecondly  "  In  the 
tvanacript. 

•  The  word  "  than  "  i»  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  that." 

•  The  word  "  into  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  in." 


136      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  COm  'NTION  OP  1787 

IP  Luther  Mabtin  agreed  with  [Col  UaMn]  as  to  the  impor- 
tance of  the  State  Gov^  he  would  support  them  at  the  expence  of 
the  Gea'  Gov?  which  was  instituted  for  the  purpose  of  that  support. 
He  saw  no  necessity  for  two  branches,  and  if  it  existed  Congress 
migut  be  organized  into  two.  He  considered  Cong*  as  representing 
the  people,  being  chosen  by  the  Legislatures  who  were  chosen  by  the 
people.  At  any  rate,  Congress  represented  the  Legislatures;  and  it 
was  the  Legislatures  not  the  people  who  refused  to  enlarge  their 
powers.  Nor  could  the  rule  of  voting  have  been  the  ground  of 
objection,  otherwise  ten  of  the  States  must  always  have  been  ready, 
to  place  further  confidence  in  Cong".  The  causes  of  repugnance  must 
theHfore  be  looked  for  elsewhere. — At  the  separation  from  the  British 
Empire,  the  people  of  America  preferred  the  establishment  of  them- 
selves into  thirteen  separate  sovereignties  instead  of  incorporating 
themselves  into  one:  to  these  they  look  up  for  the  security  of  their 
lives,  liberties  &  properties :  to  these  they  must  look  up.  The  federal 
Gov!  they  formed,  to  defend  the  whole  agf  foreign  nations,  in  case 
of  war,  and  to  defend  the  lesser  States  agi'  the  ambition  of  the  larger: 
they  are  afraid  of  granting  powers*  unnecessarily,  lest  they  should 
defeat  the  original  end  of  the  Union ;  lest  the  powers  should  prove 
dangerous  to  tbe  sovereignties  of  the  particular  States  which  the 
Union  was  meant  to  support;  and  expose  the  lesser  to  being  swal- 
lowed up  by  the  larger.  He  conceived  also  that  the  people  of  the 
States  having  already  vested  their  powers  in  their  respective  Legis- 
latures, could  not  resume  them  without  a  dissolution  of  their  Govern- 
ments. He  was  ag?'  Conventions  in  the  States :  was  not  ag"?  assisting 
States  agV  rebellious  subjects ;  thought  the  federal  plan  of  M^  Pat- 
tertion  did  not  require  coercion  more  than  the  National  one,  as  the 
latter  must  depend  for  the  deficiency  of  its  revenues  on  requisitions  & 
quotas,  and  that  a  national  Judiciary  extended  into  the  States  would 
be  ineffectual,  and  would  be  viewed  with  a  jealousy  inconsistent  with 
its  usefulness. 

IK  Sherman  2''*'  &  supported  IP  Lansings  motion.  He  ad- 
mitted two  branches  to  be  necessary  in  the  State  Legislatures,  but  saw 
no  necessity  for  them  in  a  Confederacy  of  States.  The  examples 
were  all,  of  a  single  Council.  Cong*,  carried  us  thro'  the  war,  and 
perhaps  as  well  as  any  Gov?  could  have  done.  The  complaints  at 
present  are  not  that  the  views  of  Cong!  are  unwise  or  unfaithful; 
but  that  their  powers  are  insuflBcient  for  the  execution  of  their  views. 
The  national  debt  &  the  want  of  power  somewhere  to  draw  forth 


*  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  powers  "  in  the  sinf^lnr. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JUNE  20,  1787 


137 


the  National  resources,  are  the  great  matters  that  press.  All  the 
States  were  sensible  of  the  defect  of  power  in  CongT  He  thought 
much  might  be  said  in  apology  for  the  failure  of  the  State  Legisla- 
tures to  comply  with  the  confederation.  They  were  afraid  of  bearing 
too  hard  on  the  people,  by  accumulating  taxes;  no  constitutional 
rule  had  been  or  could  be  observed  in  the  quotas — the  accounts  also 
were  unsettled  &  every  State  supposed  itself  in  advance,  rather  than 
in  arrears.  For  want  of  a  general  system,  taxes  to  a  due  amount  had 
not  been  drawn  from  trade  which  was  the  most  convenient  resource. 
As  almost  all  the  States  had  agreed  to  the  recommendation  of  Cong? 
on  the  subject  of  an  impost,  it  appeared  clearly  that  they  were  willing 
to  trust  Cong*,  with  power  to  draw  a  revenue  from  Trade.  There  is 
no  weight  therefore  in  the  argument  drawn  from  a  distrust  of  Cong! 
for  money  matters  being  the  most  important  of  all,  if  the  people 
will  trust  them  with  power  as  to  them,  they  will  trust  them  with  any 
other  necessary  powers.  Cong?  indeed  by  the  confederation  have  in 
fact  the  right  of  saying  how  much  the  people  shall  pay,  and  to  what 
purpose  it  shall  be  applied:  and  this  right  was  granted  to  them  in 
the  expectation  that  it  would  in  all  cases  have  its  effect.  If  another 
branch  were  to  be  added  to  Cong*,  to  be  chosen  by  the  people,  it 
would  serve  to  embarrass.  The  people  would  not  much  interest 
themselves  in  the  elections,  a  few  designing  men  in  the  large  dis- 
tricts would  carry  their  points,  and  the  people  would  have  no  more 
confidence  in  their  new  representatives  than  in  Cong*.  He  saw  no 
reason  why  the  State  Legislatures  should  be  unfriendly  as  had  been 
suggested,  to  Congf  If  they  appoint  Cong?  and  approve  of  their  meas- 
ures, they  would  be  rather  favorable  and  partial  to  them.  The  dis- 
parity of  the  States  in  point  of  size  he  perceived  was  the  main  difiB- 
culty.  But  the  large  States  had  not  yet  suffered  from  the  equality  of 
votes  enjoyed  by  the  small  ones.  li.  '1  great  and  general  points, 
the  interests  of  all  the  States  were  tit.  same.  The  State  of  Virg? 
notwithstanding  the  equality  of  votes,  ratified  the  Confederation 
without,  or  ^  even  proposing,  any  alteration.  Mass.^  also  ratified  with- 
out any  material  difficulty  &c.  In  none  of  the  ratifications  is  the 
want  of  two  branches  noticed  or  c<»nplained  of.  To  consolidate  the 
States  as  some  had  proposed  would  dissolve  our  Treaties  with  foreign 
Nations,  which  had  been  formed  with  us,  as  confederated  States.  He 
did  not  however  suppose  that  the  creation  of  two  branches  in  the 
Legislature  would  have  such  an  effect.  If  the  difficulty  on  the  sub- 
ject of  representation  can  not  be  otherwise  got  over,  he  would  agree 


'  The  word  "  or  "  is  stricken  out  in  the  transcript 


138      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

to  have  two  branches,  and  a  proportional  representition  in  one  o£ 
them;  provided  each  State  had  an  equal  voice  in  the  other.  Th« 
was  necessary  to  secure  the  rights  of  the  lesser  States;  otherwise  three 
or  four  of  the  large  States  would  rule  the  others  as  they  please. 
Each  State  like  each  individual  had  its  peculiar  habito  usages  and 
manners,  which  constituted  its  happiness.  It  would  not  therefore 
give  to  others  a  power  over  this  happiness,  any  more  than  an  in- 
dividual would  do,  when  he  could  avoid  it. 

Mt  WiifiON,  urged  the  necessity  of  two  branches;  observed  that 
if  a  proper  model  were '  not  to  be  found  in  other  Confederacies  it  was 
not  to  be  wondered  at.    The  number  of  them  was  small  &  the  duri^ 
tion  of  some  at  least  short.    The  Amphyctionic  &  Achtean  were  formed 
in  the  infancy  of  political  Science;  and  appear  by  their  History 
&  fate,  to  have  contained  radical  defects.     The  Swiss  &  Belgic 
Confederacies  were  held  together  not  by  any  vital  principle  of  energy 
but  by  the  incumbent  pressure  of  formidable  neighbouring  nations: 
The  German  owed  its  continuance  to  the  influence  of  the  H.  of 
Austria.    He  appealed  to  our  own  experience  for  the  defects  of  our 
Confederacy.    He  had  been  6  years  in'  the  12  since  the  commence- 
ment of  the  Revolution,  a  member  of  Congress,  and  had  felt  all  its 
weaknesses.    He  appealed  to  the  recollection  of  others  whether  on 
many  important  occasions,  the  public  interest  had  not  been  ob- 
structed by  the  small  members  of  the  Union.    The  success  of  the 
Revolution  was  owing  to  other  causes,  than  the  Constitution  of  Con- 
gress.   In  many  instances  it  went  on  even  agt*  the  difficulties  arising 
from  Congi  themselves.     He  admitted  that  the  large   States  did 
accede  as  had  been  stated,  to  the  Confederation  in  its  present  form. 
But  it  was  the  effect  of  necessity  not  of  choice.    There  are  other 
instances  of  their  yielding  from  the  same  motive  to  the  unreasonable 
measures  of  the  small  States.    The  situation  of  things  is  now  a  little 
altered.    He  insisted  that  a  jealousy  would  exist  between  the  State 
Legislatures  &  the  General  Legislature:  observing  that  the  members 
of  the  former  would  have  views  &  feelings  very  distinct  in  this  re- 
spect from  their  constituents.    A  private  Citizen  of  a  State  is  indif- 
ferent whether  power  be  exercised  by  the  Gen'  or  State  Legislatures, 
provided  it  be  exercised  most  for  his  happiness.    His  representative 
has  an  interest  in  its  being  exercised  by  the  body  to  which  he  belongs. 
He  ^11  therefore  view  the  National  Legisl:  with  the  eye  of  a  jealous 
rival.     He  observed  that  the  addresses  of  Congf  to  the  people  at 


'  The  word  "  was  "  is  pubstituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  were." 
•  The  word  "  of  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  lor  "  in." 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JUNE  21,  1787 


139 


large,  had  always  been  better  received  &  produced  greater  effect, 
than  those  made  to  the  Legislatures. 

On  the  question  for  postponing  in  order  to  take  up  M^  Lansings 
proposition  ' '  to  vest  the  powers  of  Legislation  in  Cong*. ' ' 

Mass.'  no.  Conl  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  ay  Ml 
div«    Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no  * 

On  motion  of  the  Deputies  from  Delaware,  the  question  on  the 
2?  Resolution  in  the  Report  fnm  the  Committee  of  the  whole  was 
postponed  till  tomorrow. 

Adji 


Thubsdat  June  21.    in  Convektion 

M^  Jonathan  Dayton  from  N.  Jersey  took  his  seat.* 

•  Doc^  Johnson.  On  a  comparison  of  the  two  plana  which  had 
been  proposed  from  Virginia  &  N.  Jersey,  it  appeared  that  the 
peculiarity  which  characterized  the  latter  was  its  being  calculated  to 
preserve  the  individuality  of  the  States.  The  plan  from  V*  did  not 
profess  to  destroy  this  individuality  altogether,  but  was  charged  with 
such  a  tendency.  One  Gentleman  alone  (Col.  Hamilton)  in  his 
animadversions  on  the  plan  of  N.  Jersey,  boldly  and  decisively  con- 
tended for  an  abolition  of  the  State  Oov*!  ii'.  Wilson  &  the  gentle- 
men from  Virg^  who  also  were  adversaries  of  the  plan  of  N.  Jersey 
held  a  different  language.  They  wished  to  leave  the  States  in  pos- 
session of  a  considerable,  tho'  a  subordinate  jurisdiction.  They  had 
not  yet  however  shewn  how  this  c^  consist  with,  or  be  secured  ag^ 
the  general  sovereignty  &  jurisdiction,  which  they  proposed  to  give 
to  the  national  Qovemment.  If  this  could  be  shewn  in  such  a 
manner  as  to  satisfy  the  patrons  of  the  N.  Jersey  propositions,  that 
the  individuality  of  the  States  would  not  be  endangered,  many  of 
their  objections  would  no  doubt  be  removed.  If  this  could  not  be 
shewn  their  objections  would  have  their  full  force.  He  wished  it 
therefore  to  be  well  considered  whether  in  case  the  States,  as  was 

•  From  June  21  to  July  18  incluRWe  not  copied  by  M»  Eppes.' 

»In  the  tranacript  the  Tote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  York,  New  Jersey, 
Delaware,  aye — 4;  Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South 
Carolina,  Gcorfria,  no — 6;  Maryland  divided." 

•  This  footnote  is  omitted  in  the  transcript.  It  refers  to  a  copy  of  Madi- 
son's journal  made  by  John  W.  Eppes,  Jefferson's  son-in-law,  for  Jefferson's 
use  some  time  between  1799  and  1810.  "  The  WritingB  of  Jamtt  Maditon,  Hunt, 
Editor,  Vol.  VI  (1906),  329,  n;  Documentary  Bi*tory  of  the  Conttitution,  Vol.  V 
(1905>,  294-298.  «      .     ,       ,     .., 

•The  transcript  here  inserts  the  following:  "The  second  Resolution  in  the 
Report  from  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  being  under  consideration." 


I 


140     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

proposed,  Bhl  retain  Bome  portion  of  sovereignty  at  least,  this  por- 
tion could  be  preserved,  without  allowing  them  to  participate  effec- 
tually in  the  GenJ  Gov?,  without  giving  them  each  a  distinct  and 
equal  vote  for  the  purpose  of  defending  themselves  in  the  general 

CouncUs. 

W  Wilson's  respect  for  Doc'.  Johnson,  added  to  the  importance 
of  the  subject  led  him  to  attempt,  unprepared  as  he  was,  to  solve 
the  difBculty  which  had  been  started.    It  was  asked  how  the  Gen. 
Gov*  and  individuality  of  the  particular  States  could  be  reconcUed 
to  each  other;  and  how  the  latter  could  be  secured  ag^  the  former t 
Might  it  not,  on  the  other  side  be  asked  how  the  former  was  to  be 
secured  a^-'  the  latter?    It  was  generaUy  admitted  that  a  jealousy  & 
rivalship  would  be  felt  between  the  Gea'  &  particular  Gov*;    As  the 
plan  now  stood,  tho'  indeed  contrary  to  his  opinion,  one  branch  of 
the  Gen?  Gov?  (the  Senate  or  second  branch)  was  to  be  appointed  by 
the  State  Le^atures.     The  State  Lepslatures,  therefore,  by  this 
participation  in  the  Gea'  Gov^  would  have  an  opportunity  of  defend- 
ing their  rights.    Ought  not  a  reciprocal  opportunity  to  be  given  to 
the  Gen?  Gov!  of  defending  itself  by  having  an  appointment  of  some 
one  constituent  branch  of  the  State  GovH   If  a  security  be  necessary 
on  one  side,  it  w4  seem  reasonable  to  demand  it  on  the  other.    But 
taking  the  matter  in  a  more  general  view,  he  saw  no  danger  to  the 
States  from  the  GenJ  Gov?    In  case  a  combination  should  be  made 
>>v  the  large  ones  it  w*  produce  a  general  alarm  among  the  rest ;  and 
the  project  w^  be  frustrated.    But  there  was  no  temptation  to  such 
a  project.    The  States  having  in  general  a  similar  interest,  in  case 
of  any  proposition^  in  the  National  Legislature  to  encroach  on  the 
State  Legislatures,  he  conceived  a  general  alarm  w^  take  place  in 
the  National  Legislature  itself,  that  it  would  communicate  itself  to 
the  State  Legislatures,  and  w^  finally  spread  among  the  people  at 
large.    The  Gen?  Govi  ^vill  be  as  ready  to  preserve  the  rights  of  the 
States  as  the  latter  are  to  preserve  the  rights  of  individuals;  all  the 
members  of  the  former,  having  a  common  interest,  as  representatives 
of  all  the  people  of  the  latter,  to  leave  the  State  Gov",  in  possession 
of  what  the  people  wish  them  to  retain.     He  could  not  discover, 
therefore  any  danger  whatever  on  the  side  from  which  it  had  been »  ap- 
prehended.   On  the  contrary,  he  conceived  that  in  spite  of  every  pre- 
caution the  general  Gov!  would  be  in  perpetual  danger  of  encroach- 
ments from  the  State  6ov»? 


The  tranecTipt  uses  the  word  "  propoeition  "  in  the  plural 


'  The  word  "  was  "  is 


su'jstituted  in  the  tranK-ript  for  "hftd  been" 


SESSION  OF  THUBSDAT,  JUNE  21,  1787 


Ml 


AD  Madison  wu  of  opinion'  that  there  wm  1.  leas  danger  of 
encroachment  from  the  Qen.'  Qovl  than  ttaa.  the  State  Gov't  2."  that 
the  mischief  from  eucroachmenta  would  be  leu  fatal  if  made  by  the 
former,  than  if  made  by  the  latter.  1.  All  the  examplea  of  other  con- 
federaciea  prove  the  greater  tendency  in  such  systems  to  anarchy  than 
to  tyranny ;  to  a  disobedience  of  the  members  than  to  *  usurpationa 
of  the  federal  bead.  Our  own  experience  had  fully  illustrated  this 
tendency. — But  it  will  be  said  that  the  proposed  change  in  the  prin- 
ciples &  form  of  the  Union  will  vary  the  tendency ;  that  the  Qen!  Govl 
will  have  real  &  greater  powers,  and  will  be  derived  in  one  branch  at 
least  from  the  people,  not  from  the  Gov",  of  the  States.  To  give 
full  force  to  this  objection,  let  it  be  supposed  for  a  moment  that 
indefinite  power  should  be  given  to  the  Oea'  Legislature,  and  the 
States  reduced  to  corporations  dependent  on  the  GenJ  Legislature; 
Why  sh?  it  follow  that  the  GenJ  Gov!  w*?  take  from  the  States  any 
branch  of  their  power  as  far  as  its  operation  was  beneficial,  and  its 
continuance  desireable  to  the  people  T  In  some  of  the  States,  par- 
ticularly in  Connecticut,  all  the  Townships  are  incorporated,  and 
have  a  certain  limited  jurisdiction.  Have  the  Bepresentatives  of  the 
people  of  the  Townships  in  the  Legislature  of  the  State  ever  en- 
deavored to  despoil  the  Townships  of  any  part  of  their  local  author- 
ity? As  far  as  this  local  authority  is  convenient  to  the  people  they 
are  attached  to  it ;  and  their  representatives  chosen  by  &  amenable  to 
them  naturally  respect  their  attachment  to  this,  as  much  as  their 
attachment  to  any  other  right  or  interest  The  relation  of  a  General 
Gov!  to  State  GovH  is  parallel.  2.  Guards  were  more  necessary  ag*1 
encroachments  of  the  State  GovM  on  the  Gen!  Gtov!  than  of  the  latter 
on  the  former.  The  great  objection  made  ag!*  an  abolition  of  the 
State  Govf  was  that  the  GenJ  (Jov!  could  not  extend  its  care  to  all 
the  minute  objects  which  fall  under  the  cognizance  of  the  local  juris- 
dictions. The  objection  as  stated  lay  not  agt'  the  probable  abuse  of 
the  general  power,  but  ag*.'  the  imperfect  use  that  could  be  made  of 
it  throughout  so  great  an  extent  of  country,  and  over  so  great  a 
variety  of  objects.  As  far  as  as  its  operation  would  be  practicable  it 
could  not  in  this  view  be  improper;  as  far  as  it  would  be  imprac- 
ticable, the  conveniency  *  of  the  CJea'  Gov{  itself  would  concur  with 
that  of  the  people  in  the  maintenance  of  subordinate  €k)venunents. 
Were  it  practicable  for  the  GenJ  Gov?  to  extend  its  care  to  every 


'  The  phrase  "  in  the  first  pl»ce  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript  and  the 
figure  "  1  "  is  omitted. 

"  The  figure  "  2  "  is  changed  to  "  and  in  the  second  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  to  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  conreniency  "  is  changed  to  "  convenience  "  in  the  transcript 


142     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

nqaisite  object  without  the  cooperation  of  the  Bute  Gov-?  the  people 
would  not  be  le«  free  M  member,  of  one  great  Republic  than  «• 
member,  of  thirteen  «n.ll  one..  A  Citi«n  of  DJ*;«« J"  ^^ 
more  free  than  a  Citizen  of  Virginia:  nor  would  either  be  more  free 
than  a  Citizen  of  America.  Suppoting  therefore  a  tendency  in  the 
Gea-  Government  to  ab«>rb  the  State  Gov't  no  fatal »  -n^quence  could 
mult  Taking  the  rever«  of  the  «ippo.ition,  that  a  tendency 
should  be  left  in  the  State  Gov",  toward.  »»  )°<^«Jr^«°f ,  °°  J*' 
General  Govi  and  the  gloomy  con«quence.  need  not  ^  Po'°^«^°^; 
The  imagination  of  them,  must  have  roggeated  to  the  S^J«  ^ 
experiment  we  are  now  making  to  prevent  the  f^^'^'^^^ 
have  formed  the  chief  motive  with  thow  pre«nt  to  undertake  the 

'"^r'th'T^iiertion  for  re«>lving  "  that  the  Legirieture  onght  to 
conairt  of  two  Branche.  " 

Ma«.«y.  Ooniay.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  Jen^  no  K  ay.  DeL  no. 
M'.div*   V«ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.«  ,,.„«^ 

The  third  rewlution  of  the  Report*  taken  into  ^"ideratooo. 

Genl  PiNKMtT  moved  "  that  the  1?  branch,  inrtead  of  being 
elected  by  the  people,  .W  be  elected  in  roch  manner  a.  the  Leg* 
iatare  rf  each  bZ  Aould  direct"    He  urged  l.»  that  th»  liberty 

Itid  ^ve  mo«  «.tisfaction.  «i  the  ^^^^-^^^^^-^^ '"^^.^Zl 
date  the  mode  to  the  conveniency  •  &  opinion,  of  the  people.  2^  tiiat  r^ 
would  avoid  the  undue  influence  of  large  Countie.  which  would  p«. 
vail  if  the  election,  were  to  be  made  in  ^"«^^f  »"\>^ 
mode  intended  by  the  Report  of  the  Committee.  J-*  ^"^  «*"^ 
disputed  election,  must  be  referred  to  the  Qen«»l J^Pj"^^"  f  ij 
would  be  attended  with  intolerable  expence  and  trouble  to  the  dia- 
tant  parts  of  the  republic. 

m  L.  Mabtin  Mconded  the  Motion.  .  ,     ,  ,         .,   .,„  x. 

Col  Hamilton  considered  the  motion  as  intended  manifertlyt» 
transfer  the  election  from  the  people  to  the  State  Legidatum  whK* 
would  essentially  vitiate  the  plan.  It  would  '^'pr^\^^ 
influence  which  could  not  be  too  watchfuly  guarded  ag?  All  t«) 
must  admit  the  possibility,  in  ca«,  the  Gen!  Gov*  sW  maintain^ 


'of.' 


,.„U.'vSnr=^^"ou|.  r^  ^  «--»•  '^-^'  ^-^  ^"''• 
New  J^«!y.  IVlaware.  nc^3;  Maryland.  f'»Wfi„„„,i  «. 

"  ^^r'^i'i^ra'-^  c^nvScy  ••  is  change!  to  «  convenience  "  in  the  tran«=ript. 


SESSION  OF  THUBSDAT,  JUNE  21,  1787 


148 


tluit  the  SUte  Gov'?  might  gnuliuUjr  dwindle  into  nothing.  The 
■yitem  therefore  ihf  not  be  engrafted  on  what  might  poeaibly  fail. 

MI  Mamn  urged  the  neceetitjr  of  retaining  the  election  by  the 
people.  Whatever  inconveniency '  may  attend  the  demooratie  prin> 
ciple,  it  must  aetoate  one  part  of  the  Qov*.  It  ia  the  only  aecority  for 
the  righta  of  the  people. 

Ml  Sbxbium,  would  like  an  election  by  the  Legiilatarea  beet, 
but  ia  content  with '  plan  aa  it  itanda. 

MI  RuTUOoi  eonld  not  admit  the  iolidity  of  the  diatinetion  be- 
tween a  mediate  k  immediate  election  by  the  people.  It  waa  the 
■ame  thing  to  act  by  oneaelf ,  and  to  act  by  another.  An  election  by 
the  Legislature  would  be  more  refined  than  an  election  immediately 
by  the  people :  and  would  be  more  likely  to  eorreapond  with  the  senae 
of  the  whole  community.  If  thia  Convention  bad  been  ehoeen  by  the 
people  in  diatrieta  it  ia  not  to  be  rappoaed  that  aach  proper  char- 
•etera  would  have  been  preferred.  The  Delegates  to  CongS  he  thought 
had  alao  been  fitter  men  than  would  have  been  appointed  by  the 
people  at  large. 

M^  WiLBON  considered  the  election  of  the  If  branch  by  the  people 
not  only  aa  the  comer  Stone,  but  aa  the  foundation  of  the  fabric: 
and  that  the  difference  between  a  mediate  A  immediate  election  waa 
immense.  The  difference  was  particularly  worthy  of  notice  in  thia 
respect:  that  the  Legislatures  are  actuated  not  merely  by  the  senti- 
ment  of  the  people;  but  have  an  ofBcial  sentiment  opposed  to 
that  of  the  Om'  Gov!  and  perhapa  to  that  of  the  people  them- 
selves. 

HR  Kmo  enlarged  on  the  same  distinction.  He  supposed  the 
Legialatnrea  w1  constantly  chooae  men  subservient  to  their  own  views 
as  contrasted  to  the  general  interest;  and  that  they  might  even  deviae 
modes  of  election  that  w^  be  subversive  of  the  end  in  view.  He  re- 
marked several  instances  in  which  the  views  of  a  State  might  be  at 
variance  with  those  of  the  Gen'  Gov^ :  and  mentioned  particularly  a 
competition  between  the  National  &  State  debta,  for  the  most  certain 
ft  productive  funds. 

Gen.'  PiNKNmr  waa  for  making  the  State  Gov?  a  part  of  the 
General  System.  If  they  were  to  be  abolished,  or  lose  their  agency, 
S.  Carolina  &  other  States  would  have  but  a  small  share  of  the  bene- 
fits of  Gov? 

On  the  question  for  Gen!  Pinkney  motion  to  substitute  election 


*  The  word  "  incoBTcnieney "  ii  changed  to  "  inconTenieBee "  in  the  tnn- 
■cript. 

■  The  word  "  the  "*  it  here  inierted  in  the  tranteript. 


144     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

of «  IV  branch  in  Buch  mode  u  the  LegltUturw  nhould  appoint,  in 
rtead  of  iU  being  elected  by  the  people." 

Maa»".no.  CW  ay.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  ay.  K  no.  Del.  »jr.  M? 
div*    V:  no.    N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  ay    Geo.  no.' 

General  Pwkniy  then  moved  that  the  1*  brweh  be  elected 

by  <A«  people  in  auch  mode  as  the  LegiHlatorea  should  direct;  but 

waved  it  on  ita  being  hintwt  that  auch  a  provision  might  be  more 

properly  tried  in  the  detail  of  the  plan. 

On  the  quesUon  for  y  election  of  the  I?  branch  by  the  people. 

Maaa-ay.  Conl  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M! 
div*   V^  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay    Geo.  ay.' 


« Election  of  the  1?  branch  "  for  the  t«nn  of  three  year% 


•  >4 


eim* 


aidered  ,,       j  i      .* 

M:  Randolph  moved  to  strike  out,  "  three  yeart  and  insert 
..  t^o  years  "—he  waa  sensible  that  annual  elections  were  a  source 
of  great  mischiefs  in  the  8tatea,  yet  it  was  the  want  of  auch  checta 
Bg?  the  popular  intemperence  as  were  now  propoaed,  that  rendemi 
them  so  mischievous.  He  would  have  preferred  annual  to  biennial, 
but  for  the  extent  of  the  U.  8.  and  the  inconveniency '  which  would 
result  from  them  to  the  representatives  of  the  extrems  parts  of  the 
Empire.  The  people  were  attached  to  frequency  of  dectiona.  AU 
the  Conatitutiona  of  the  States  except  that  of  8.  Carolina,  had 
established  annual  elections. 

M*.  Dickenson.  The  idea  of  annual  elections  waa  borrowed  from 
the  antient  usage  of  England,  a  country  much  leas  extensive  than 
ours  He  supposed  biennial  would  be  inconvenient.  He  preferred 
triennial:  and  in  order  to  prevent  the  inconveniency'  of  an  entire 
change  of  the  whole  number  at  the  same  moment,  suggested  a  rotation, 
by  an  annual  election  of  one  third. 

MI  EiJBEWORTH  waa  opposed  to  three  years,  supposing  that  even 
one  year  waa  preferable  to  two  years.  The  people  were  fond  of 
frequent  electiona  and  might  be  safely  indulged  in  one  branch  of  the 
Legislature.    He  moved  for  1  year. 

IV  Strong  seconded  &  supported  the  motion. 


•  The  word  "  the  "  U  here  InieTtea  in  the  tranicript.  «.,„.«. 

•  In  th*  transcript  the  vote  rewls!  "Connecticut,  ^•'^  J«"f J^  ^'•'•J^/ 
South  Ca^Mnaay^;  M..«chu*.tt.,  NewYork.  Penneylvani..  Virginia.  North 

''"°lt\^Tu'^'^L'^^'^*'"^*^^  Connecticut.  New  York. 

Penn,J?vIl;ta!'DeTjiC.  vl^Jrinia.  North  Carolina.  South  Carolina.  Georgia, 
aye— 0:  New  Jcrwy,  no— 1 ;  Maryland,  divided. 

'The  word  "heinjf"  i*  h'-re  inserted  in  the  trtnicrlpt. 

•The  word  "inconveniency"  ii  changed  to  "inconvenience"  m  the  Iran- 
■cript. 


SESSIO:,  op  THURSDAY.  JUNE  21,  1787 


148 


&r.  WtLSOM  being  for  making  the  1!*  bnuie^  effectual  reprewn- 
totion  of  the  people  at  large,  preferred  an  am  ni<m  of  it.    Thia 

frequency  waa  moat  familiar  A  plcaunK  to  the  iieople.  It  would 
be  not  ■  more  inconvenient  to  them,  than  trienniiU  eleetiona,  aa  the 
people  in  all  the  States  have  annual  meetings  with  which  the  electimi 
of  the  National  representatives  might  be  made  to  eo-incide.  He 
did  not  conceive  that  it  would  be  necessary  for  the  Nat'  Legisl: 
to  sit  constantly;  perhapa  not  half— perhapa  not  one  fourth  of  the 
year. 

M;  IfASBON  was  persuaded  that  annual  eleetiona  would  be  ex- 
tremely inconvenient  and  apprehensive  that  biennial  would  be  too 
mueh  so:  he  did  not  mean  inconvenient  to  the  electors;  but  to  the 
representatives.  They  would  have  to  travel  seven  or  eiRht  hundred 
miles  from  the  distant  parts  of  the  Union ;  and  would  probably  not 
be  allowed  even  a  reimbursement  of  their  expences.  Besides,  none  of 
those  who  wished  to  be  reelected  would  remain  at  the  aeat  of  Got- 
emm^  confiding  that  their  absence  would  not  affect  them.  The 
members  of  Cong*,  had  done  thia  with  few  instances  of  disappoint- 
ment. But  aa  the  choice  was  here  to  be  made  by  the  people  them- 
selves who  would  be  mueh  less  complaisant  to  individuala,  and  much 
more  susceptible  of  impressions  from  the  presence  of  a  Rival  candi- 
date, it  muat  be  suppoaed  that  the  members  from  the  most  distant 
States  would  travel  backwards  ft  forwards  at  least  aa  often  aa  the 
elections  should  be  repeated.  Much  waa  to  be  aaid  alao  on  the  time 
requisite  for  new  members  who  would  always  form  a  large  propor- 
tion, to  acquire  that  knowledge  of  the  affairs  of  the  States  in  general 
without  which  their  trust  could  not  be  usefully  discharged. 

Mf  Shxrman  preferred  annual  elections,  but  would  be  content 
with  biennial.  He  thought  the  Representatives  ought  to  return  home 
and  mix  with  the  people.  By  remaining  at  the  seat  of  Gov^  they 
would  acquire  the  habita  of  the  place  which  might  differ  from  those 
•f  their  Constituents. 

Col.  Mason  observed  that  the  States  being  differently  situated 
such  a  rule  ought  to  be  formed  as  would  put  them  aa  nearly  as  pos- 
sible on  a  level.  If  elections  were  annual  the  middle  States  would 
have  a  great  advantage  over  the  extreme  ones.  He  wished  them  to 
be  biennial ;  and  the  rather  as  in  that  case  they  would  coincide  with 
the  periodical  eleetiona  of  S.  Carolina  as  well  of  the  other  States. 

Col.  HAMiutm  urged  the  necessity  of  3  years.  There  ought  to 
be  neither  too  much  nor  too  little  dependence,  on  the  popular  senti- 


'  The  word*  "  J»  not "  ar«  traT!8pos«d  ,     -"sd  "  not  be  "  1b  the  tntttscript. 


146     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

ments  The  ohecks  in  the  other  branches  o£  GovemI  would  be  but 
feeble,  and  would  need  every  auxiliary  principle  that  could  be  inter- 
woven The  British  Houae  of  Ctommona  were  elected  septenni^y, 
yet  the  democratic  apirit  of  y?  Constitution  had  not  ceased.  F«v 
Quency  of  elections  tended  to  make  the  people  listiess  to  them ;  aud 
to  fadlitate  the  success  of  Uttle  cabahu  This  evU  was  complamed 
of  in  all  the  States.  In  Virgt  it  had  been  lately  found  necessary  to 
force  the  attendance  &  voting  of  the  people  by  severe  regulations. 

On  the  question  for  striking  out  "  three  years 

Sss-.ay.    Conway.    N.  Y.  no.    N.  J.  div-    Kay.    Del  no. 
M*no.    V*ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.^ 

The  motion  for  "  two  years  "  was  then  inserted  nem.  con. 

Adji 


Pbidat  June  22.    m  Convintion 
The  clause  in  ReeoL  3.»  "  to  receive  Sxe^  stipends  to  be  paid  out 
of  the  Nation.' Treasury '"considered.  ♦i...  qt^t^  nnt  of 

MT  EusEV^ORTH.  moved  to  substitute  payment  by  the  Stetes  out  of 
their  own  Treasurys:  observing  that  the  manners  of  different  States 
we«  very  differenTin  the  Stile  of  living  and  in  the  Profito  accruing 
IZ  Ih7exercise  of  like  telents.  What  would  be  deemed  therefore 
a  reasonable  compensation  in  some  States,  in  otheniwou^d  be  very 
unpopular,  and  might  impede  the  sy-^em  of  'hich  it  made  a  p«rt. 

Mr  Williamson  favored  the  id-a.  He  reminded  the  House  of 
the  prospect  of  new  States  to  the  Westward.  They  would  be* 
pl-would  pay  little  into  the  common  Tr««ury-^d  Wd  ^ve 
a  different  interest  from  the  old  Stetes.  ^^^^^  ^^.^J^'^, 
that  the  latter  ought  to  pay  the  expencee  of  men  who  would  be  em- 
ployed  in  thwarting  their  measures  &  interests. 

ir  Ghobum,  wished  not  to  refer  the  matter  to  the  Stote  Leguflj- 
tures  who  were  always  paring  down  salaries  in  such  a  m«^'  "  ^ 
keep  ont  of  offices  men  most  capable  of  executing  the  i^^^^^^ 
them.  He  thought  also  it  would  be  wrong  to  fix  the  ««»P«'»»t'7  *  ^ 
the  constitutions,'  because  we  could  not  venture  to  make  it  as  liberal 

"^Theword  "being"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript, 
the  sisgukr- 


SESSION  OF  FRIDAT,  JUNE  22,  1787 


147 


aa  it  OQ^t  to  be  withoat  exoitmg  an  enmity  acE^  the  whole  plan. 
Let  the  Natij  Legiil:  provide  for  their  own  wages  from  time  to  time; 
M  the  State  Legialatoree  do.  He  had  not  aeen  this  part  of  their 
power  abased,  nor  did  he  apprehend  an  abuse  of  it. 

Ml  RANiMXiPH*  feared  we  were  going  too  far,  in  eonsolting 
popular  prejudices.  Whatever  respect  mi^t  be  due  to  them, 
in  leaser  matters,  or  in  cases  where  they  formed  the  permanent  char- 
aeter  of  the  people,  he  thout^t  it  neither  incumbent  on  nor  honorable 
for  the  Convention,  to  sacrifice  right  ft  justice  to  that  c<msideration. 
If  the  States  were  to  pay  the  members  of  the  Natf  Legislature,  a  de- 
pendence would  be  created  that  would  vitiate  the  whole  System.  The 
whole  nation  has  an  interest  in  the  attendance  ft  services  of  the 
members.  The  Natioa'  Treasuiy  theref(N«  is  the  proper  fund  for 
supporting  them. 

IIR  Emo,  urged  the  danger  of  creating  a  dependoice  on  the 
States  by  leavl  to  them  the  payment  of  the  members  of  the  Nat! 
Legislature.  He  supposed  it  w4  be  best  to  be  explicit  as  to  the  com- 
pensation to  be  allowed.  A  reserve  on  that  point,  or  a  reference 
tc-  ?  Nati  Legistatare  of  the  quantum,  would  excite  greater  opposi- 
tion ihaM  any  sum  thnt  would  be  actually  necessary  or  proper. 

M!  Sherman  contended  for  referring  both  the  quantum  and  the 
p^rment  of  it  to  the  State  LegitUtures. 

W  WnfiOK  was  ag!*  fixing  the  compensation  as  circumstances 
would  change  and  call  for  a  change  of  tiie  amount  He  thouf^t  it 
of  great  moment  that  the  monbers  of  the  Nati  Qovf  should  be  left  as 
independent  as  possible  of  the  State  Qov*!  in  all  respects. 

HP  ]I£adi8on  concurred  in  the  necessity  of  preserving  the  com- 
pensations for  the  Nat*  Govi  ind^>endait  on  the  State  Go^  but 
at  the  same  time  approved  of  /Sxtnor  them  by  the  Ckmstitution, 
which  might  be  done  by  taking  a  standard  which  w^  not  vary  with 
droumstances.  He  disliked  particularly  the  poliey  suggested  by 
lit  Wiliamson  of  leaving  the  members  from  tlw  poor  States  beyond 
the  Mountains,  to  the  precarious  ft  parsimonious  support  of  their  con- 
stituents. If  the  Western  States  hereafter  arising  should  be  ad- 
mitted into  the  Union,  they  ought  to  be  considered  as  equals  ft  as 
brethr^i.  If  their  representatives  were  to  be  associated  in  the  Com- 
mon Councils,  it  was  of  common  concern  that  such  provisions  should 
be  made  as  would  invite  the  most  eqwUe  and  respectable  characters 
into  the  service. 

M^  Hamiuok  apprdiended  ineonvenieney  *  from  fixing  the  wages. 

'  Tbe  words  "  Mid  he  "  ar«  ken  instrttd  in  tlM  tniMertpt 
■The  mad  " inixmvaikiKy "  ia  <ftaBged  to  " ineanTcskMe "  is  th»  tna- 
Soript. 


l'^>: 


148      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

He  waa  rtrenuous  ag*  making  the  National  ConncU  dependent  on 
fheSalSerew,^  of  the  State..  The*  who  pay  are  the  marte« 
of  tSwho  are  paid.  Payment  by  the  SUtes  would  be  ^ual  « 
Se  d2Lt  State,  would  have  to  pay  for  the  same  term  of  attendant 
lid  mwe  days  in  travelling  to  &  from  the  seat  of  the »  Gov!  He  ^ 
JitiarreSaicaUy  on  the  difference  between  the  f edings  &  view. 
Jf  S;r»S-I&  the  GavenmenU  of  the  States  anams  from  the 
"^riSLn^&offlclal  indncementB  which  mmt  render  the  latter 

unfriendly  to  the  Gen!  Gov*  ,, 

M!  Wn«)N  moved  that  the  Salaries  of  the  If  branch     U»^ 
toined  b»  fhe  National  Legidature,"  *  and  be  paid  out  of  the  Nat 

'''Tmad.sox.  thought  the  member,  of  the  I;^»'.  ^  "^^  J": 
ter^ted  to  aacerlain  their  own  compensation.  It  w*  be  mdecent  to  put 
S^hands  into  the  public  purse  for  the  «J^e  of  their  own  p«=kej^ 
On  this  question  •  Mas.  no.  Coni  no.  N.  Y.  div4  N.  J  ay.  K 
ay  DeLno-M'no.  V»  no.  N.  C.  no.  8.  C.  no.  Qf>- ^>^-*  . 
^'  On  the  question  for  striking  out  "  Nat'  Treamiry  "  «i  moved  by 

"^'^HrHiLs  renewed  his  opposition  to  it    H*  pre««d  the  dj. 

t:i-^z\^^v^^  sttuinuSn^t^:: 

%%^^o^rTw:'.«  iSloi  of  the  state  Gov.  they  wOI 
h«  «  of  us.  If  on  going  home  I  tdl  them  we  gave  the  Gen:  GovJ 
^c^^w^  ^nJT<^  not  trurt  yoa.  will  they  adopt  it.  and 

M-.no.   V»no.    N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.div**» 

.  Note,     in  .pp«r«l  tut  M«J^  .r^-t^^cS^f'^oU&lSd 
S  Import  the  Nationtl  Legidttttre.] 

*'^.'T^«:S^;t  here  i-^t.  tb.  foricj|^^'.I.a"  the  -larie.  of  the  flrrt 
brwch  b.  .«ert.iSed  by  the  ^^'^^^I^J^^^lr^,  Penn.yW-i.1..  .ye--2; 
•In  the  trannoript  the  ▼«*?  "^••„.^J'  vir»mU,    North    Cwolln*. 
M»«iachnsetts,    Connecticut.    D*>"'»»«'r*TJ"J5i ,.    ^ 

•  iB  the  tranMript  tie  vote  '**• ' ,    '*;'*S',^„t^lvini«,  Detaware.  M»ry- 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  JUNE  22,  1787 


149 


On  a  qoestion  for  aabstitnting  "  Adequate  compenaation  "  in 
place  of  "  flxt  atipends  "  it  waa  agreed  to  nem.  con.  the  frienda 
of  the  latter  being  willing  that  the  practicability  of  fixing  the 
compensation  ahould  be  considered  hereafter  in  forming  the  de- 
tails. 

It  was  then  moved  by  SC  BTrruai  that  a  question  be  taken  on  both 
points  jointly;  to  wit  "  adequate  compensation  to  be  paid  out  of 
the  Nat'  Treasury."  It  was  objected  to  as  out  of  order,  the  parts 
having  been  separately  decided  on.  The  Preside  refer*,  the  question 
of  order  to  the  House,  and  it  was  determined  to  be  in  order.  Con. 
N.  J.  DeL  M*  N.  C.  8.  C— ay— »  N.  Y.  P»  V!  Geo.  no— ^  Mass: 
divided.  The  question  on  the  sentence  was  then  postponed  by  S. 
Candina  in  right  of  the  State. 

Col.  Mason  moved  to  insert  "  twenty-five  years  of  age  as  a  quali- 
fication for  the  members  of  the  1?  branch."  He  thought  it  absurd 
that  a  man  to  day  should  not  be  permitted  by  the  law  to  make  a 
bargain  for  himself,  and  tomorrow  ahould  be  authorized  to  manage 
the  aifairs  of  a  great  nation.  It  was  the  more  extraordinary  as  every 
man  carried  with  him  in  his  own  experience  a  scale  for  measuring  the 
deficiency  of  young  politicians;  since  he  would  if  interrogated  be 
obliged  to  declare  that  his  political  opinions  at  the  age  of  21.  were 
too  crude  &  erroneous  to  merit  an  influence  on  public  measures.  It 
had  been  said  that  Cong?  had  proved  a  good  school  for  our  young 
men.  It  might  be  so  for  any  thing  he  knew  but  if  it  were,  he  chose 
that  they  should  bear  the  expence  of  their  own  education. 

MS  WoBON  was  ag?  abridging  the  rights  of  election  in  any  shape. 
It  waa  the  same  thing  whether  this  were  d«me  by  disqualifying  the 
objects  of  choice,  or  the  persons  chnsing.  The  motion  tended  to 
damp  the  efforts  of  genius,  and  of  laudable  ambition.  There  was 
no  more  reason  for  incapacitating  youik  than  age,  where  the  requi- 
site qualifications  were  found.  Many  instances  might  be  mentioned 
of  signal  services  rendered  in  high  stations  to  the  public  before  the 
age  of  25:  The  present  Mt  Pitt  and  Lord  B<dingbroke  were  striking 
instances. 

On  the  question  for  inserting  "  26  years  of  age  " 
Mass?  no.    Con^  ay.    N.  Y.  div^    N.  J.  ay.    I*  no.    Del.  i^. 
M*  ay.   V?  ay.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.* 


'In  the  tniii»cript  the  flgnrea  "«"  sad  "4 "  we  inwrted  utUr  "ay"  and 
"  no "  reepectiTtly.  _  .         »,       ,  «  , 

"In  the  transcript  the  vote  niA»-.  "Connecticut,  New  Jeraey,  Ddaware, 
Maryland,  VirginU,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye— 7;  Maaaadwaett* 
PennayWania,  Georgia,  no— 3;  New  York,  dirided." 


n 


150      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

M^  Qhobom  moved  to  rtrike  out  the  last  member  of  3  Besol:^ 
concernins  ineligibiUty  of  memben  of  the  1*1  branch  to  offices  •  during 
the  term  of  their  membership  &  for  one  year  after.  He  considered 
it  as'  unnecessary  &  injurious.  It  was  true  abuses  had  been  dis- 
played in  G.  B.  but  no  one  c1  say  how  far  they  might  have  contributed 
to  preserve  the  due  influence  of  the  Gov'  nor  what  might  have  ensued 
in  case  the  contra'^;  theory  had  been  tried. 

Mr  BuTLEE  opposed  it.  This  precaution  ag^  intrigue  was  neces- 
sary. He  appealed  to  the  example  of  G.  B.  where  men  got*  into 
Pari?  that  they  might  get  offices  for  themselves  or  their  friends.  Thia 
was  the  source  of  the  corruption  that  ruined  their  Govl 

MI  Kino,  thought  we  were  refining  too  much.  Such  a  restriction 
on  the  members  would  discourage  merit.  It  would  also  give  a  pr^ 
text  to  the  Executive  for  bad  appointments,  as  he  might  always  plead 
this  as  a  bar  to  the  choice  hi  wished  to  have  made. 

M'.  "WttSO^T  -ras  ag!'  fettering  elections,  and  discouraging  merit. 
He  suggested  also  the  fatal  consequence  in  time  of  war,  of  render- 
ing perhaps  the  best  Commanders  ineligible:  appealing"  to  our 
situation  during  the  late  war,  and  indirectly  leading  to  a  recol- 
lection of  the  appointment  of  the  Commander  in  Chief  out  of 

Congress. 

Col.  Mason  was  for  shutting  the  door  at  all  events  ag«  corrup- 
tion. He  enlarged  on  the  venality  and  abuses  in  this  particular  in 
G.  Britain:  and  alluded  to  the  multiplicity  of  foreign  Embassies  by 
Cong".    The  disqualification  he  regarded  as  a  comer  stone  in  the 

fabric.  . 

CoL  Hamilton.  There  are  inconveniences  on  both  sides.  We  must 
take  man  as  we  find  him,  and  if  we  expect  him  to  serve  the  public 
must  interest  his  passions  in  doing  so.  A  reliance  on  pure  patriotism 
had  been  the  source  of  many  of  our  errors.  He  thought  the  remark 
of  Mr  Ghorum  a  just  one.  It  was  impossible  to  say  what  w^  be* 
effect  in  G.  B.  of  such  a  reform  as  had  been  urged.  It  was  known 
that  one  of  the  ablest  politicians  [>E  Hume,]  had  pronounced 
all  that  influence  on  the  side  of  the  crown,  which  went  under  the 
name  of  corruption,'  an  essential  part  of  the  weight  which  maintained 
the  equilibrium  of  the  Constitution. 

the  third  Resolution"  are  eubitltuted  in  the  transcript  for 

"  R  "  is  gtriclcen  out  of  the  word  "  offlces  "  in  the  tranicript. 
'  M  "  i»  etriclcen  out  in  the  tmnicript. 
'  cet "  is  substituted  in  the  trat-cript  for     got. 
appealed  "  is  substituted  in  f  e  trantcript  for  "  appealing. 
"  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

.......  ..         J    .< ..41....  »» 


'  The  words 
"  3  Resol :  " 
"  The  letter  ' 
•The  word 
•The  word 
'  The  word 
•  The  word 


'  The  transcript  italicizes  the  word  "  corruption." 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  23,  1787 

On  W.  Ghomm'B  Motion  for  striking  out  "  ineligibility," ' 
Mm*!  ay.    Con.'  no.    N.  Y.  div^    N.  J.  ay.    K  divl      Del. 
Mar*  no.    Vf  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

AdJI 


151 


div*. 


SATxnmAY  JuNi  23.    m  Contention 

The  3.  Beaol :  resumed.* 

On*  Question  yesterday  postponed  by  S.  Carcrf:  for  agreeing  to 
the  whole  sentence  "  for  allowing  an  adequate  compensation  to  be 
paid  out  of  the  Treasury  of  the  V.  States  " 

Mast!  ay.  Coni  no.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Pen!  ay  Del.  no. 
M^  ay.  V!  ay.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  no.  Geo  divided.'  So  the  question 
was  lost,  &  the  sentence  not  inserted : 

Gen.*  PiNKNET  moves  to  strike  out  the  ineligibility  of  members  of 
the  I!'  branch  to  oflSces  estoblished  "  by  a  particular  State."  He 
argued  from  the  inconveniency  •  to  which  such  a  restriction  would 
expose  both  the  members  of  the  If  branch,  and  the  States  wishing 
for  their  services;'  from  the  ^.iiallness  of  the  object  to  be  attained 
by  the  restriction. 

It  w1  seem  from  the  ideas  of  some  that  we  are  erecting  a  Eiing- 
dom  to  be  divided  ag*.'  itself,  he  disapproved  such  a  fetter  on  the 
Legislature. 

M'.  Shebuan  seconds  the  motion.  It  w1  seem  that  we  are  erect- 
ing a  Kingdom  at  war  with  itself.  The  Legislature  ought  not  to* 
fettered  in  such  a  case,  on  the  question 

Mast",  no.  Coni  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P!  no.  Del.  no. 
W  ay.    V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo,  ay.' 

'The  tranicript  here  tnaerts  the  following:    "it  wm   lost   by  an   equal 

diTision  of  the  vote*."  „        ■.  •vr  _iv 

"In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  " Maseachusetts,  New  Jersey,  >orth 
Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 4;  Connecticut,  Maryland.  Virginia,  South  Carolina, 
BO— t;  New  York,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  divided'."  ,    .       ^  , 

•In  the  transcript  this  sentence  reads:  "The  third  Resolution  being  re- 
tained." ... 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

■In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Massaehuwtts,  New  Jersey,  Pennsyl- 
vania, Maryland,  Virginia,  aye— 5:  Connecticut,  New  York,  Delaware,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 6;  GeorgU,  divided."  ..  ,     ^,.     ^ 

•  The  word  "  inconveniency "  is  changed  to  "  inconvenience  in  the  tran- 
script. 

'  The  word  "  and  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  be  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  York,  New  Jersey, 
Maryland,  VirginU,  North  Carolina,  South. Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8;  Massa- 
chtisetts,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  no — 3." 


152      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

M^  Madison  renewed  his  motion  yesterday  made  &  waved  to 
render  the  members  of  the  1?*  branch  "  ineligible  during  their  term 
of  service,  &  for  one  year  after— to  such  offices  only  as  should  be 
established,  or  the  emoluments  thereof,  augmented  by  the  Legisla- 
ture of  the  U.  States  during  the  time  of  their  being  members."  He 
supposed  that  the  unnecessary  creation  of  offices,  and  increase  of 
salaries,  were  the  evUs  most  experienced,  &  that  if  the  door  was  shut 
ag".'  them:  it  might  properly  be  left  open  for  the  appoint',  of  mem- 
bers to  other  offices  as  an  encouragem^  to  the  Legislative  service. 

M'  Alex :  Martin  seconded  the  motion. 

M^  BuTLBB.    The  amend:  does  not  go  far  eno'  it  w^  be  easily 

evaded 

M'.  RuTiiDOE,  was  for  preserving  the  Legislature  as  pure  as  poa- 
sible,  by  shutting  the  door  against  appointments  of  its  own  membert 
to  offices,'  which  was  one  source  of  its  corruption. 

M:  Mason.  The  motion  of  my  colleague  is  but  a  partial  remedy 
for  the  evil.  He  appealed  to  him  as  a  witness  of  the  shameful  par- 
tiality of  the  Legislature  of  Virginia  to  its  own  members.  He  en- 
larged on  the  abuses  &  corruption  in  the  British  Parliament,  con- 
nected with  the  appointment  of  its  members,  He  c?  not  suppose 
that  a  sufficient  number  of  Citizens  could  not  be  found  who  would 
bo  ready,  without  the  inducement  of  eligibility  to  offices,  to  undertake 
the  Legislative  service.  Genius  &  virtue  it  may  be  said,  ought  to  be 
encouraged.  Genius,  for  aught  he  knew,  might,  but  that  virtue 
should  be  encouraged  by  such  a  species  of  venality,  was  an  idea, 
that  at  least  had  the  merit  of  being  new. 

AP  Kino  remarked  that  we  were  refining  too  much  in  this  busi- 
ness; and  that  the  idea  of  preventing  intrigue  and  solicitation  of 
offices  was  chimerical.  You  say  that  no  member  shall  himself  be 
eligible  to  any  office.  Will  this  restrain  him  from  from  availing  him- 
self of  the  same  means  which  would  gain  appointments  for  himself,  to 
gain  them  for  his  son,  his  brother,  or  any  other  object  of  his  par- 
ti; 'Hy.  We  were  losing  therefore  the  advantages  on  one  side,  without 
avoiding  the  evils  on  the  other. 

W-  Wilson  supported  the  motion.  The  proper  cure  he  said  for 
corruption  in  the  Legislature  was  to  take  from  it  the  power  of 
appointing  to  offices.  One  branch  of  corruption  would  indeed  re- 
main, that  of  creating  unnecessary  offices,  or  granting  unnecessary 
salaries,  and  for  that  the  amendment  would  be  a  proper  remedy. 
He  animadverted  on  the  impropriety  of  stigmatizing  with  the  name 


•  The  transcript  uaea  the  word  "  offices  "  in  the  singular. 


SESSION  OP  SATUEDAY,  JUNE  23,  1787 


153 


of  venality  the  laudable  ambition  of  rising  into  the  honorable  ofBcea 
of  the  Qovemment;  an  ambition  most  likely  to  be  felt  in  the  early 
&  most  incorrupt  period  of  life,  &  which  all  wise  &  free  Gov*!  had 
deemed  it  sound  policy,  to  cherish,  not  to  check.  The  members  of  the 
Legislature  have  perhaps  the  hardest  &  least  profitable  task  of  any 
who  engage  in  the  service  of  the  state.  Ought  this  merit  to  be 
made  a  disqualification  1 

M'.  Sherman,  observed  that  the  motion  did  not  go  far  enough. 
It  might  be  evaded  by  the  creation  of  a  new  office,  the  translation 
to  it  of  a  person  from  another  office,  and  the  appointment  of  a 
member  of  the  Legislature  to  the  latter.  A  new  Embassy  might  be 
established  to  a  new  Court,  &  an  ambassador  taken  from  another,  in 
order  to  create  a  vacancy  for  a  favorite  member.  He  admitted  that 
inconveniencies  lay  on  both  sides.  He  hoped  there  w^  be  sufficient  in- 
ducements to  the  public  service  without  resorting  to  the  prospect  of 
desireable  offices,  and  on  the  whole  was  rather  ag!*  the  motion  of  W 
Madison. 

Mr  Oebbt  thought  there  was  great  weight  in  the  objection  of 
Mr  Sherman.  He  added  as  another  objection  agr'  admitting  the 
eligibility  of  members  in  any  case  that  it  would  produce  intrigues  of 
ambitious  men  for  displacing  proper  officers,  in  order  to  create 
vacancies  for  themselves.  In  answer  to  M'.  King  he  observed  that 
although  members,  if  disqualified  themselves  might  still  intrigue  & 
cabal  for  their  sons,  brotiiers  &c,  yet  as  their  own  interest  would 
be  dearer  to  them,  than  those  of  their  nearest  connections,  it  might 
be  expected  they  would  go  greater  lengths  to  promote  it. 

M^  Madison  had  been  led  to  this  motion  as  a  middle  ground 
between  an  eligibility  in  all  cases,  and  an  absolute  disqualification. 
He  admitted  the  probable  abuses  of  an  eligibility  of  the  members, 
to  offices,  particularly  within  the  gift  of  the  Legislature  He  had 
witnessed  the  partiality  of  such  bodies  to  their  own  members,  as 
had  been  remarked  of  the  Virginia  assembly  by  his  colleague  [Col. 
Mason].  He  appealed  however  to  him,  in  turn  to  vouch  another 
fact  not  less  notorious  in  Virginia,  that  the  backwardness  of  the  best 
citizens  to  engage  in  the  Legislative  service  gave  but  too  great 
success  to  unfit  characters.  The  question  was  not  to  be  viewed  on 
one  side  only.  The  advantages  &  disadvantages  on  both  ought  to 
be  fairly  compared.  The  objects  to  be  aimed  at  were  to  fill  all  offices 
with  the  fittest  characters,  &  to  draw  the  wisest  &  most  worthy  citizens 
into  the  Legislative  service.  If  on  one  hand,  public  bodies  were 
partial  to  their  own  members;  on  the  other  they  were  as  apt  to  be 
misled  by  taking  characters  on  report,  or  the  authority  of  patrons 


164      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

and  dependent!.    All  who  h«d  been  concerned  in  the  appointment  of 
■trangert  on  thoee  recommedationa  muat  be  aensible  of  thia  truth. 
Nor  w1  the  partialitiea  of  roch  Bodies  be  obviated  by  disqualifying 
their  own  members.  Candidates  for  office  would  hover  round  the  aeat 
of  Gov!  or  be  found  among  the  residents  there,  and  practise  all  the 
means  of  courting  the  favor  of  the  members.    A  great  proportion  of 
the  appointments  made  by  the  States  were  evidently  brought  about 
in  this  way.    In  the  general  Gov*  the  evil  must  be  still  greater,  the 
characters  of  distant  states,  being  much  less  known  throughout  the 
U   States  than  those  of  the  distant  parts  of  the  same  Stete.    The 
elections  by  Congress  had  generally  turned  on  men  Imng  at  the 
seat  of  the  fed'  Gov.*  or  in  its  neighbourhood.— As  to  the  next  object, 
the  impulse  to  the  Legislative  service,  was  evinced  by  experience 
to  be  in  general  too  feeble  with  those  best  qualified  for  it.    Thw  in- 
conveniency »  w^  atoo  be  more  felt  in  the  Nat'  GovJ  than  in  the  Stat* 
Gov?  as  the  sacrifices  req?  from  the  distant  members,  vfi  be  much 
greater,  and  the  pecuniary  provisions,  probably,  more  dispropor- 
tiate     It  w*.  therefore  be  impoUtic  to  add  fr«h  objections  to  the 
Legislative  service  by  an  absolute  disqualification  of  its  membew. 
The  point  in  question  was  whether  thU  would  be  an  objection  ^nth 
the  most  capable  citizens.    Arguing  from  experience  he  concluded 
that  it  would.    The  Legislature  of  Virg^  would  probably  have  been 
without  many  of  its  best  members,  if  in  that  situation,  they  had  been 
ineligible  to  Cong*,  to  the  Gov*  &  other  honorable  offices  of  the  State. 
W.  Butler  thought  Characters  fit  for  office  w^  never  be  unknown. 
Col  Mason.    If  the  members  of  the  Legislature  are  disqualified, 
■till  the  honors  of  the  State  will  induce  those  who  aspire  to  them 
to  enter  that  service,  as  the  field  in  which  they  can  best  display  4 
fanprove  their  talents,  &  lay  the  train  for  their  subsequent  ad- 
vancement. - 

Mr  Jenifer  remarked  that  in  Maryland,  the  Senators  chosen  for 
five  years,  c*  hold  no  other  office  &  that  this  circumstance  gained 
them  the  greatest  confidence  of  the  people. 

On  the  question  for  agrtsing  to  the  motion  of  W-  Madison. 
Ma88«^div^    CUy.    N.  Y.  no.    N.  J.  ay.    Pr  no.    Del.no.    M«  no. 


V?  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 
M^  Sherman  mov4  to  insert  the  words 


"  and  incapable  of  hold- 


,he  word  "inconvenieBcy"  is  changed  to  "  inconvenimoe "  in  the  tran- 

''t  T.,  ihf  tranBcriDt  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  Jerwy,  aye— 2;  New 
York  Pen«S"'nlla.;re,  Maryland  VlrglnU.  North  CaroUna.  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8;  MaseachuietU,  divided. 


Bcript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JUNE  25,  1787 


155 


iog  "  after  the  words  "  eligible  to  offices  " »  w"*  wu  agreed  to  witli- 
out  opposition. 

The  word  "  established  "  &  the  words  "  *  Nat'  Gov!  "  were  struck 
out  of  Resolation  3^ :  ■ 

Mt  Spaioht  called  for  a  division  of  the  qaeation,  in  consequence 
of  which  it  was  so  put,  as  that  it  turned  in  *  the  first  member  of  it, 
"  on  the  ineligibility  of  the »  members  during  the  term  for  which  they 
were  elected  " — whereon  the  States  were, 

Massf  div"!  C'.  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  R  no.  Del.  ay.  Mf 
ay.    Vr  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.* 

On  the  2^  member  of  the  sentence  extending  ineligibility  of 
members  to  one  year  after  the  term  for  which  they  were  elected 
Col  Mason  thought  this  essential  to  guard  ag?  evasions  by  resigna- 
tions, and  stipulations  for  office  to  bo  fulfilled  at  the  expiration  of 
the  legislative  term.  Ml  Oebkt,  had  known  such  a  case.  Mf  IUmsu- 
TON.  Evasions  d  not  be  prevented — as  by  proxies — by  friends  hold- 
ing for  a  year,  &  them  ^  opening  the  way  &c.  W.  Butlidoe  admitted 
the  powibility  of  evasions  but  was  for  controuling  them  as  possible.* 
» Mass.  no.  C?  no.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  no.  PT  div^  Del,  ay.  Mar?  ay 
V*  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no  " 

Adj« 


Monday.    Jcne  25.    m  Convention. 


Resolution  4."  being  taken  up. 
M?  PiNKNEY  *'  spoke  as  follows- 


The  efficacy  of  the  System  will 


'  The  word*  "  ineligible  to  sny  office  "  are  tubatituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  eligible  to  office*." 

•  The  words  "  under  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  words  "  the  third  Resolution "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  Resolution  S-i " 

•  The  word  "  on  "  is  subetituied  in  the  transcript  for  "  in." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  tranucript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  York,  New  Jersey, 
Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye— 8;  Penn- 
sylvania, Georgia,  no — 2;  Masaacbuaetts,  divided." 

'  The  word  "  then  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  them." 
•The  phrase  "contracting  them  as  far  as  possible"  is  substituted  in  the 
transcript  for  "controuling  them  as  possible." 

•  The  words  "  On  the  question  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

"In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  York,  Delaware,  Maryland,  South 
Carolina,  aye — 4;  Massachusetts,  Connect'cut,  New  Jersey,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina.  Georgia,  no— 6;  Pennsylvania,  divided."  .  .      ^  ,  ,  . 

"The  words  "The  fourth  Resolution"  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  Resolution  4."  ...  t  ^     ^ 

"  Pinckney  furnished  Madison  with  a  copy  of  this  speech  which  he  trans- 
cribed, but  apparently  not  with  the  whole  of  it,  as  Madison's  note  at  the  end 


156      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

depend  on  this  article.    In  order  to  form  a  right  judgm?  in  the  eaaa^ 
it  will  be  proper  to  examine  the  eituation  of  thia  Country  mor« 
accurately  than  it  haa  yet  been  done.    The  people  of  the  U.  SUtea 
are  perhapa  the  moat  singular  of  any  we  are  acquainted  with.    Among 
them  there  are  fewer  distinctions  of  fortune  &  less  of  rank,  than 
among  the  inhabitants  of  any  other  nation.    Ewsry  freeman  has  a 
right  to  the  same  protection  &  security;  and  a  very  moderate  share 
of  property  entitles  them  to  the  ro««M«»on  of  all  the  honor*  and 
privUegea  the  pubUc  can  bestow,  hence  arises  a  greater  equ^ity, 
than  U  to  be  found  among  the  people  of  any  other  country,  and  aa 
equality  which  is  more  likely  to  continue— I  wy  thia  equality  u 
likely  to  continue,  because  in  a  new  Country,  posaeeaing  unmensa 
tracU  of  uncultivated  lands,  where  every  temptation  is  offered  to 
emigration  &  where  industry  must  be  rewarded  with  competency, 
there  wiU  be  few  poor,  and  few  dependent^Every  member  of  the 
Society  almost,  wUl  enjoy  an  equal  power  of  arriving  at  the  auprema 
ofBces  &  consequenUy  of  directing  the  strength  &  sentmiento  of  the 
whole  Community.    None  wUl  be  excluded  by  birth,  &  few  by  for- 
tune from  voting  for  proper  persons  to  fill  the  offices  of  Government— 
the  whole  community  will  enjoy  in  the  fullest  sense  that  kind  of 
political  liberty  which  consists  in  the  power  the  members  of  the 
State  reserve  to  themselves,  of  arriving  at  the  public  offices,  or  at 
least,  of  having  votes  in  the  nomination  of  those  who  fill  them. 

If  this  State  of  things  is  true  &  the  prospect  of  its  continuing^ 
probable,  it  is  perhaps  not  politic  to  endeavour  too  close  an  imita. 
tion  of  a  Government  calculated  for  a  people  whose  situatioi  is,  ft 
whose  views  ought  to  be  extremely  different 

Much  has  been  said  of  the  Constitution  of  G.  Britain.  I  wiU 
confess  that  I  believe  it  to  be  the  best  Constitution  in  existence;  but 
at  the  same  time  I  am  confident  it  is  one  that  wiU  not  or  can  not  be 
introduced  into  this  Country,  for  many  centuries.— If  it  were  proper 
to  go  here  into  a  historical  dissertation  on  the  British  Constitution,  it 
might  easily  be  shewn  that  the  peculiar  excellence,  the  distinguishing 
feature  of  that  GovemmJ  can  not  possibly  be  introduced  into  our 
Sj-stem— that  its  balance  between  the  Crown  &  the  people  can  not  be 
made  a  part  of  our  Constitution.— that  we  neither  have  or  can  have 
the  members  to  compose  it,  nor  the  rights,  privileges  &  properties  of 
so  distinct  a  class  of  Citizens  to  guard.— that  the  materials  for  form- 


iadJcates.    The  original  Pinckney  dr«ft  i»  »inong  the  Madison  papers,  and  showi 
Madlaon'a  convinK  to  have  been  accurate.  .   .     .        „ 

■^ewOTd" continuance"    it   aubatituted    in    the   tranacrlpt    lor    "con- 

tfaiuing." 


SBSSrON  OF  MONDAY,  JUNE  25,  1787 


IM 


laf  tUr  baUnee  or  ehaek  do  not  txiit,  nor  u  thm  a  me— ity  for 
IwTiaf  w  ponnaiMiit  a  part  of  oar  LegialatiT*,  oatU  tha  BxaeatiTa 
power  ia  ao  oonatitotad  aa  to  have  aoimthint  flsad  A  daagaroaa  in  ita 
prindpla— By  thia  I  maaa  a  ade,  haraditaiy,  thoa|h  linitad 
Exeenthre. 

That  we  eannot  hare  a  proper  bodjr  for  formiiiff  a  LagialatiTa 
balance  between  the  inordinate  power  of  tba  ExeeatiTO  and  the 
people,  ia  evident  from  a  reTiew  of  the  aoeidanta  A  dreamataaeea 
which  gave  riae  to  the  peerage  of  Great  Britain— I  beUcre  it  ia  well 
•ieertained  that  the  parte  which  eompoae  the  Britiah  Conatitation 
aroM  immediately  from  the  fweata  of  Oermaiqr ;  bat  the  antiquity  of 
the  eatabliafament  of  nobility  ia  by  no  moana  deariy  defined.  Some 
aathora  are  of  opinion  that  the  dignity  denoted  by  the  titlea  of 
daz  et  *  rmaea,  waa  derived  from  the  old  Soman  to  the  German  Em« 
pire;  while  otiwra  are  of  opinion  that  they  eziated  among  the  Ger- 
mane long  before  the  Bomaaa  were  aeqnaiatad  with  them.  The 
inatitation  however  of  nobility  ia  immemorial  among  the  nationa  who 
m^  probably  be  tenoed  the  aneeatma  of '  Britain^— At  the  time  they 
were  aommoned  in  En^and  to  become  a  part  of  the  National  Cooneil, 
and  *  the  eireomataneea  which  have  *  contributed  to  make  them  a  om- 
atitoent  part  of  that  conatitution,  moat  be  well  known  to  all  gentlemen 
who  have  had  induatry  A  curioaity  enou^  to  inveatigate  the  aubjeet — 
The  noblea  with  thdr  poaaeeriona  A  and  depcndenta  compoeed  a  body 
permanent  in  their  nature  and  formidable  in  point  of  power.  They 
had  a  diatinct  intereat  both  from  the  King  and  the  people ;  an  intereat 
which  could  only  be  repreaented  by  themaelvea,  and  the  guardian* 
ahip  *  could  not  be  aaf ely  intruated  to  othera. — ^At  the  time  they  were 
originally  called  to  form  a  nart  of  the  National  Coandl,  nceeeiity 
perhapa  aa  much  aa  other  eauae,  indoeed  the  Monardi  to  loek  up  to 
them.  It  waa  neeeaaary  to  demand  tiie  aid  of  hia  aubjeeta  in  per- 
araial  A  pecuniary  aervieea.  The  power  and  poaaeaiioni  of  the 
Nobility  would  not  permit  taxation  from  any  aaaembly  of  which  they 
were  not  a  part:  A  the  blending*  the  deputiea  of  the  Commoi  with 
them,  A  thua  forming  what  they  called  their  pailer-ment*  waa  per- 
hapa aa  much  the  effect  of  chance  aa  of  any  thing  elae.  The  Com> 
mona  were  at  that  time  complMtly  anbordiitate  to  the  noblea,  whoae 


>  The  word  "utd  "  is  lulMtttHtod  in  th*  tnueript  for  "H. 

•  The  word  "  Ore«t "  U  hen  inMrted  ia  the  tniBicript. 

•  The  words  "  sad  "  and  "  hun  "  are  eroeeed  out  ia  the  traaaer^ 

•  The  word!  "  of  which  "  are  here  iaierted  in  the  truacript 
■  The  word  "  of  ii  here  iaeertad  in  the  traaierlpt. 

•  The  traaaeript  ItaliciMe  the  word  "  parlcr«teiit.'' 


«     I 


158      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

„p«?ority:  a  mp^riority  »  degrading  to  the  Common.  th.tUit^ 
3  Summon,  w.  find  the  peer,  are  called  upon  to  con-ult^'  the  com- 
mon.tocon.ent.'  From  thi.  time  the  peers  have  compo.«l  a  part  of 
the  Britirii  LegiiUtnre,  and  notwithrtanding  their  power  and  in- 
fluence hare  diminiriied  ft  tho«.  of  tha  Common.  h.Te  tocr«M^.  yet 
•tiU  they  hare  alway.  formed  an  exceUent  balance  ag*  either  the 
encroachment,  of  the  Crown  or  the  people.  «_„.„  *-- 

I  have  Mid  that  mch  a  body  cannot  ex»t  in  thi.  Country  «« 
am.  end  that  until!  the  .ituation  of  our  people  i.  wf^"*^ 
changed  no  nece-ity  will  exirt  for  wo  permanent  a  part  of  the  Legta- 
lature     To  illurtrate  thi.  I  have  remarked  that  the  people  of  the 
United  Bute,  are  more  equal  in  their  circumrtance.  than  the  people 
of  any  other  Country-that  they  hare  yery  few  nch  men  among 
them.-by  rich  men  I  mean  thoee  whoee  riche.  may  have  a  danger. 
ou>  influence,  or  roch  a.  are  erteemed  rich  in  Europe-perhap.  Uere 
are  not  one  hundred  roch  on  the  Continent;  that  it  U  not  probable 
thia  number  will  be  greatly  increaaed:  that  the  geniu.  of  the  people, 
their  mediocrity  of  utuation  ft  the  proepect.  which  are  afforded  their 
induitry  in  a  Country  which  murt  be  a  new  one  for  centune.  are 
unfavorable  to  the  rapid  dirtinction  of  rank..    The  dertruction  rf 
the  right  of  primogeniture  ft  the  equal  divirion  of  the  property  of 
Inteatote.  wiU  alM  have  an  effect  to  pre«rve  thi.  medioarity ;  for 
law.  invariably  affect  the  manner,  of  a  people.    On  the  other  hand 
that  vart  extent  of  unpeopled  territory  which  open,  to  the  frugal  ft 
indurtriou.  a  nire  road  to  comv..ency  ft  independence  wiU  effertuaUy 
prevent  for  a  conaiderable  time  the  inereaw  of  the  poor  or  ducon- 
tented,  and  be  the  mean,  of  prewrving  that  equality  of  condition 
which  M>  eminently  dirtinguidie.  vm.  .   v    tt  a*  » 

If  equality  i.  aa  I  contend  the  leading  feature  of  the  U.  SUtes, 
where  then  are  the  riche.  ft  wealth  who»  representation  ft  protection 
i.  the  peculiar  province  of  thi.  permanent  body.  Are  they  in  the 
hand,  of  the  few  who  may  be  called  rich;  in  the  poMe«ion  of  1m. 
than  a  hundred  citizen,  t  certainly  not.  They  are  in  the  great  body 
of  the  people,  among  whom  there  are  no  men  of  wealth,  and  venr 
few  of  real  poverty.— I.  it  probable  that  a  change  will  be  created, 
and  that  a  new  order  of  men  wUl  ariwt  If  under  the  Britirii 
Government,  for  a  century  no  roch  change  wa«  probable,*  I  think  it 

« TJi*  trmnicriDt  lUHciMi  the  wordi  "  conwilt "  and  "  coMept." 

•The  w^  "produced"  U  lubitituted  for  the  word  "probable"  in  the  tran- 

Kript 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY.  JUNE  2S,  1787 


IM 


m$y  be  faiiijr  eoaelnded  it  will  sot  tak*  plae*  while  tren  th«  Mm* 
bUnee  of  Bepablieaniam  remaiiu.— How  ia  this  ehanct  to  b«  cffeetedt 
Where  we  the  Mmrcee  from  whenee  it  ia  to  flowt  From  the  landed 
interaatt  No.  That  ia  too  oaprodaetiTe  ft  too  much  dirided  in 
moat  of  the  Statea.  Frmn  the  Mooied  intercatt  If  aaeh  exiata  at 
preaent,  little  ia  to  be  apprehended  from  that  aoareo.  Ia  it  to  apring 
from  eommercet  I  believe  it  would  be  the  ilrat  inatanee  in  which  a 
nobility  apranc  from  merehanta.  Beeidea,  Sir,  I  apprehend  that 
on  thia  point  the  policy  of  •-  ^''  Statee  haa  been  maeh  miataken. 
We  have  nnwiaely  oonaidr  .  i  'ji<r,uvea  ea  the  inhabitaata  of  an  old 
inatead  of  a  new  eoantr  V  hr-r  ^  '  «:<.  ''le  maxima  of  a  State 
full  of  people  ft  manT;\"*urc!  ft  ptrf^uit  n  credit  We  have 
deaerted  oar  true  intf.  i  .>  -i  ir^jtev^  A  uju  iny  doedy  to  thoaa 
improvementa  in  ('o. .' '>ir.  poli  j'  uhic!'  wo-  have  enaond  tha 
fntore  importaneo  a'  u<.  lun  ve.-tf,  vf  Irsvi  <.ihly  ft  prematurely 
engaged  in  aeheme  ....  .?xir<.<(i\->  ;•!.  thr^  i  p  i  ipmdent.  Thia  how* 
ever  ia  an  error  v,  f  h  I'ai  i:  n-  ct»  iiuli  ik,  I  have  no  doubt  that  a 
few  more  aevere  trii!<<  hP  ro>  v  ncti  r<i,  tb<  t  very  different  cmi^ 
mereial  prineiplea  ongut  to  g  <..  ru  thf  <  -<  I  ir.t  of  theae  Statea. 

The  people  of  thia  eoa.>t>->  ■  ro.  jnly  v^ery  different  from  the 
inhabitanta  of  any  State  v<  »cqn3>'-d  with  in  the  modem 

world;  but  I  aanrt  that  their  aituation  ia  diatinet  from  either  the 
people  of  Greece  or  Bome,  or  of  any  State  we  are  acquainted  with 
among  the  antienta. — Can  the  ordera  introduced  by  the  inttitntion 
of  Solon,  can  they  be  found  in  the  United  Statea  t  Can  the  military 
habita  ft  mannera  of  Sparta  be  resembled  to  our  habita  ft  mannerat 
Are  the  diatinctiona  of  Patrician  ft  Plebeian  known  among  uit  Can 
the  Helvetic  or  Belgio  confederaciea,  or  can  the  unwieldy,  unmeaning 
body  called  the  Germanic  Empire,  can  they  be  aaid  to  poaaen  either 
the  aame  or  a  aituation  like  oorat  I  apprehend  not— They  ara 
perfectly  different,  in  their  diitincti<»a  of  rank,  their  C<matitutiona, 
their  mannera  ft  their  policy. 

Our  true  aituation  appeara  to  me  to  be  tUa. — a  new  eztenaiva 
Country  containing  within  itaelf  the  materials  for  forming  a  Govern- 
ment capable  of  extending  to  its  citizens  all  the  Ueai  q$  of  civil  ft 
religioua  liberty— capable  of  making  them  happy  at  ne.  Thia  ia 
the  great  end  of  Republican  Establishmenta.  We  mistaxe  the  object 
of  our  Government  if  we  hq;>e  or  wiah  that  it  ia  to  make  na  respect- 
able abroad.  Conquest  or  auperiority  among  other  powers  is  not  or 
ought  not  ever  to  be  the  object  of  republican  systema.  If  they  are 
BuiBciently  active  ft  energetic  to  reaene  ns  from  contempt  ft  preserve 
our  domestic  happineaa  ft  aeeurity,  it  is  all  we  can  expect  fmn 


I 


160      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 
them.-it  i.  more  than  Imct  «y  other  Go^nunent  en^r-  to  xf 

^^"-iXlieve  thi.  ob^rvation  Win  ^^^-fj^rJ^ci^T^ - 
two  people  are  .0  exacUy  f^f  ^X^^^^^  ^^^  equal  benefit: 
to  admit  the  exerc.se  ^^'^^^^^^  geniu.  of  the  people  it  i. 
that  a  system  murt  be  muted  to  tne  nauiui  •  » 

to  govern,  and  murt  grow  ou^oMhe,^  ^^  ^  ^^^^^ 

The  people  of  the  U.  S.  may  oe  ^^^  ^^y, 

r^^'t::iid::biet:i^r^  t^^^^       ^'  «r"  ^ 

have  a  consideraoie  weigav  m  ■«        ■weight  aa  a  wise 

lar-CommercW  nte»,  who  '-yj>'^J7^^2S7tr  commercial 
or  injudicious  «>r;->f  J^^^,  »  JTrtue  U  the  merchant, 
policy  is  pursued  which  I  conceive  xo  .^g^ble  time  to  have 

S  this  Country  will  not  or  J^^^^  °«' '^.ii^^'^X'i^^^  int^est, 
much  weight  in  the  P°y*^«^ .'".t^-f ;ho  [^^  ever  to  be 

the  owner,  and  culUvators  of  ^jJ^^^^^C  'Z^,  however 
the  governing  spring  m  the  -yste^T^"  ^  T^  poUtical 
^rani^tVS'redtir^utr'in^Jre..   f  ^e. 

SL"^'  o?f ae?  oTSe  ^ther  is  mu^^  ^J^^rS^t 
Sn  the  planter.   Both  must  m  private  «  well-  pu^  ^^     ^^^ 

nected  with  the  prof«K.nri  -»;;^^?,^^"^rS.  m^iifet  eon- 
measure  depend  upon » thm.  Hen^rt  is  ««r  ^^^  ^^^ 

sessions  &  their  Pno^P^"-!      ,.      ,"J^„L  the  wealth  of  the 

"  duly  and  properly." 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JUNE  25,  1787 


161 


the  peers  or  the  people  could  repreient  the  royalty,  nor  eoold  the 
Royalty  ft  the  people  form  m  proper  reprewntation  for  the  Peen^ — 
Each  llierefore  must  of  necessity  be  represented  by  itself,  or  the  sign 
of  itself ;  and  this  accidental  mixture  has  certainly  formed  a  Govern- 
ment achnirably  well  balanced. 

But  the  U.  States  contain  but  one  order  that  can  be  assimilated 
to  the  British  Nation,— this  is  the  order  of  Commons.  They  will 
not  surely  then  attempt  to  form  a  Goremment  consisting  of  three 
branches,  two  of  which  shall  have  nothing  to  represent  They  will 
not  have  an  Executive  ft  Senate  [hereditary]  because  the  King  ft 
Lords  of  Eng^d  are  so.  The  same  reasons  do  not  exist  and  there- 
fore the  same  provisions  are  not  necessary. 

We  must  as  has  been  observed  suit  our  Goivemm^  to  tiie  people 
it  is  to  direct  These  are  I  believe  as  active,  intelligent  ft  susceptible 
of  good  Oovemmt  as  any  people  in  the  world.  The  Contaaaa  which 
has  produced  the  present  relaxed  State  is  not  owing  to  than.  It  is 
owing  to  the  weakness  ft  [defects]  of  a  Gov!  incapable  of  combining 
the  various  interests  it  is  intended  to  unite,  and  destitute  of  energy. — 
All  that  we  have  to  do  then  is  to  distribute  the  powers  of  GovJ  in  such 
a  manner,  and  for  such  limited  periods,  as  while  it  gives  a  proper 
degree  of  permanency  to  the  Magistrate,  will  reserve  to  the  people,  th« 
right  of  election  they  will  not  or  ought  not  frequently  to  part  with. — 
I  am  of  opinion  that  this  may  be  easity*  done;  and  that  with  some 
amendments  the  propositions  before  the  Committee  will  fully  answer 
this  end. 

No  position  appears  to  me  more  true  than  this;  that  the  General 
Gov!  can  not  effectually  odst  without  reserving  to  the  States  the 
possession  of  their  loeal  rights.  They  are  the  instruments  upon 
which  the  Union  must  frequently  depend  for  the  support  ft  execution 
of  their  powers,  however  immediately  operating  upon  the  people, 
and  not  upon  the  States. 

Much  has  been  said  about  the  propriety  of  abdidiing  the  di»- 
tinetion  of  State  Governments,  ft  having  but  one  general  System. 
Suffer  me  for  a  moment  to  examine  tills  question.* 


*Tlw  rMidn*  ol 
Pinekncy.* 


this  tpcMh  WM  aot  teitUhed  Uka  tte  abort  hf  Ift 


>Tlw  word*  "oe  cMily''  an  traatpoaid  in  tha  traaaeript  to  "cadly  be.** 
•"Tlia  reaidm''  of  Fiadmcy^  apaadu  aMordiag  to  Sobcrt  Tata*  waa  M 
follow*: 

"Tlie  United  Statea  include  a  territory  of  abont  1800  nilea  ia  lencth,  and 
in  breadth  about  400;  the  whole  of  which  ia  divided  into  itatea  and  diitrieto. 
While  we  were  dependent  on  the  crown  of  Oraat  Britain,  it  waa  in  eontentplatloa 
to  have  formed  the  whole  into  one— but  it  waa  fonnd  impracticable.  Ko  legii- 
latur*  covld  make  good  laws  for  the  whole,  nor  can  it  now  be  done.    It  would 


162 


DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


The  mode  of  con.tituting  the  V  branch  »«i°«  "??"  ^J^J;]:;^^ 
The  word  "  national  "  was  itruck  out  and      United  States 

"""^"^HOEtm.  inclined  to  a  compromiBe  as  *«  *«  "^  «' ^"^ 
tion  He  thought  there  was  some  weight  in  the  objectaona  oj  the  maU 
SUtea.  If  Vt  should  have  16.  vote.  &  Del-  w^th  «.veral  «««' SUt- 
Ser  16.  tho«>  from  Virgt  would  be  more  likely  to  unite  than  the 
oSI«  and  would  therefore  have  an  undue  influence  This  remark 
^ TppUcable  not  only  to  States,  but  to  Countie.  or  oU»er  du^c^^ 
S^sSe  State.  Accordingly  the  Com.titution  of  Maa.-^  had  pi^ 
^ded  that  the  rep««nt.tives  of  the  larger  d^^'f  *«?,^,;°*  J*^ 
Texact  ratio  to  their  numbers.  And  experience  he  thought  had  shewn 

the  proviaion  to  be  expedient  «.,,«,- 

M'  RHAD.  The  SUte.  have  heretofore  been  in  .  aort  of  partner, 
ahio  They  ought  to  adjust  their  old  aflfaira  before  they  oper  a 
^w  account.  He  brought  into  view  the  appropriation  of  ^e  «.mmo° 
Z^  in  the  Western  lands,  to  the  use  of  particuUr  States.  Let 
S^bTdre  on  this  head;  let  the  fund  be  applied  fairly  &  equaUy 
TZ  S«Lge  of  the  general  debt,  and  the  "na^er  SUtes  who 
L  been  injured;  would  listen  then  perhap.  to  those  ideas  of  ju-t 
reoresentetion  which  had  been  held  out. 

W  Ghobum.  did*  not  see  how  the  Convention  could  interpose  m 

the  case.    Errors  he  allowed  had  been  committed  on  the  -ubje^ 

But  Cong;  were  now  using  their  endeavon  to  rectify  them.    The 

best  remedy  would  be  such  a  Government  as  wodd  l^f^^nr^t 

to  do  justice  throughout.    This  was  certainly  the  beat  chanee  that 

could  be  afforded  to  the  smaller  States.  ,  *.     o«  k-.«<.1, 

IP  WiuoN.  the  question  is  shall  the  members  of  the  V.  brand! 

be  chosen  by  the  Legislatures  of  the  States?    When  he  corundered  Ae 

amazing  extent  of  Country-tbe  immense  populabon  which  is  to  mi 

it,  the  influence  which '  the GovJ  wc  are  to  form ^\^^?' °°*«^y  ^° 

the  present  generation  of  our  people  &  their  multiplied  posterity, 


.nd'^I  propo«  Ai»  plan   (re«l.  it)   and  J    no  ^^^^^J'J'^jS^JijZ 
then  move^iU  adoption."     Secret  Proceeding,  and  Delate*  of  «*'  £°"r"*^ 

Conititutionof  the  UniM  Statee  of  Amenoa,  hy  Robert  YatM  <  18X1),  p-  »<»• 
•The  word  '■  opened  "  is  Bubstituted  in  the  tran«;rlpt  for  '' orjn. 
■The  word  "could"  is  oubstituted  in  the  transcript  fo'     «»• 
•  The  word  "  of "  i»  »ub«tituU-d  in  the  transcnpt  for     which. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JUNE  25,  1787 


163 


bat  on  the  whole  Globe,  he  was  lost  in  the  magnitude  of  the  object. 
The  project  of  Henry  the  4?'  &  his  Statesmen  wss  but  the  piotore  in 
Biiniature  of  the  great  portrait  to  be  exhibited.  He  was  opposed  to 
•D  electitm  by  the  State  Legislatores.  In  explaining  his  reasons  it 
was  necessary  to  observe  the  twof<dd  relation  in  which  the  people 
would  stand.  1.'  as  Citizens  of  the  Gea'  Gov!  2.^  as  Citizens  of  their 
particular  State.  The  0^  QwS  was  meant  for  them  in  the  first 
capacity:  the  State  Gov!*  in  the  second.  Both  Gov*!  were  derived 
from  the  people — both  meant  for  the  people — both  therefore  ought  to 
be  regulated  on  the  same  orineiples.  The  same  train  of  ideas  which 
belonged  to  ^e  relation  of  the  Citizens  to  their  State  Gov*!  were 
applicable  to  their  relation  to  the  Gen.'  Ckivi  and  in  forming  the 
latter,  we  ought  to  proceed,  by  abstracting  as  much  as  possible  from 
the  idea  of '  State  Gov*7  With  respect  to  the  province  &  objects  *  of 
the  GenJ  Gov^  they  should  be  considered  as  having  no  existence.  The 
election  of  the  2?  branch  by  the  Legislatures,  will  introduce  ft  cherish 
local  interests  &  local  prejudices.  The  Gen!  Gov!  is  not  an  assem- 
blage of  States,  but  of  individuals  for  certain  political  purposes — 
it  'i  not  meant  for  the  States,  but  for  the  individuals  composing 
them ;  the  individualt  therefore  not  the  Statet,  ought  to  be  represented 
in  it:  A  proportion  in  this  representation  can  be  preserved  in  the  2^ 
as  well  as  in  the  1^  branch ;  and  the  election  can  be  made  by  electors 
chosen  by  the  people  for  that  purpose.  He  moved  an  amendment  to 
that  effect  which  was  not  seconded. 

IT.  Elskwobth  saw  no  reason  for  departing  from  the  mode  eoOf 
tained  in  the  Report  Whoever  chooses  the  member,  he  will  be  a 
Citizen  of  the  State  he  is  to  represent  &  will  fed  the  same  spirit  k 
act  the  same  part  whether  he  be  appointed  by  the  people  or  the 
Legislature.  Every  State  has  its  particular  views  &  prejudices, 
which  will  find  their  way  into  the  general  councils,  thi-ough  what- 
ever channel  they  may  flow.  Wisdom  was  one  of  the  charaeteristies 
which  it  was  in  contemplation  to  give  the  second  branch.  Would 
not  more  of  it  issue  from  the  Legislatures ;  than  from  an  immediate 
election  by  the  people.  He  urged  tiie  necessity  of  maintaining  the 
existence  ft  agency  of  the  States.  Without  their  co-opa«tion  it 
would  be  impossible  to  support  a  Republican  Gov!  over  so  great  an 
extent  of  Country.  An  army  could  scarcely  render  it  practicable. 
The  largest  States  are  the  worst  Governed.     Virg?  is  obliged  to 

>  The  figure  "  1 "  ii  cluDged  in  tlu>  transcript  to  "  first,"  and  tlie  figure  "  2  " 
to  "  and  secondly." 

*  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  objects  "  is  used  in  the  singular  in  the  transcript 


164      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

acknowledge  her  incapacity  to  extend  her  Govi  to  Kentuclqr  Mas^ 
can  not  keep  the  peace  one  hundred  milea  from  her  caprtol  and  is 
now  forming  an  army  for  ita  support.  How  long  Pen.  may  be  free 
from  a  like  aituation  can  not  be  foreseen.  If  the  pnnciplea  4  ma- 
terials of  our  Gov<  are  not  adequate  to  the  extent  of  these  amgle 
States;  how  can  it  be  imagined  that  they  can  support  a  aingle  Gov. 
throughout  the  U.  States.  The  only  chance  of  supportjng  a  Gen. 
GovMies  in  engrafting Mt  on  that*  of  the  individual  States. 

Doc'.  Johnson  urged  the  necessity  of  preserving  the  State  Gov . 
which  would  be  at  the  mercy  of  the  GcnJ  Gov*  on  Ml  Wil«)n's  plan. 
Mt  Madbon  thought  it  w*  obviate  difficulty  if  the  present  resol : 
were  postponed.  &  the  8?  taken  up,  which  is  to  fix  the  right  of  suf- 
frage in  the  21  branch.  

Dod '  WiLLUiiSON  professed  himself  a  friend  to  such  a  syrtem  as 
would  secure  the  existence  of  the  State  Gov*?  The  happiness  of  the 
people  depended  on  it.  He  was  at  a  loss  to  give  his  vote  a»  to  the 
Senate  untill  he  knew  the  number  of  its  members.  In  order  to 
ascertain  this,  he  moved  to  insert  these  words*  after  "  2-  branch  of 
the  Nat!  Legislature  "— »"  who  shall  bear  such  proportion  to  the  n? 
of  the  i:'  branch  as  1  to  ."    He  was  not  seconded. 

M'.  Mason.  It  has  been  agreed  on  all  hands  that  an  efficient 
Gov'  is  ntcessarj'  that  to  render  it  such  it  ought  to  have  the  faculty 
of  self-defence,  that  to  render  its  different  branches  effectual  wch  of 
them  ought  to  have  the  same  power  of  self  defence.  He  did  not 
wonder  that  such  an  igreement  should  have  prevailed  in  •  these  points. 
He  only  wondered  that  there  should  b^  any  disa.Treement  about  the 
necessity  of  allowing  the  State  Gov**  the  same  self-defence.  If  tl»y 
are  to  be  preserved  as  he  conceived  to  be  ewential,  they  certainly 
ought  to  have  this  power,  and  the  only  mode  left  of  giving  it  to 
them,  was  by  allowing  them  to  appoint  the  21  branch  of  the  Nati 
Legislature. 

M!  Butler  observing  that  we  were  put  to  difficulties  at  every 
step  by  the  uncertainty  whether  an  equality  or  a  ratio  of  representar 
tion  vfi  prevail  finally  in  the  2^  branch,  moved  to  postpone  the  4* 
Besol :  &  to  proceed  to  the '  Resol :  on  that  point.  M^  Madison  sec- 
snded  him. 


>  The  word  •'  grmftiiiR  "  i«  substituted  in  the  tranwript  for  "  onfrrafting. 
•The  wor.l  "those"  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "that." 
'  The  word  "  Mr."  is  substituted  in  tlie  transcript  for  "  DocT  " 

•  The  words  "  these  words  "  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  words  "  the  words  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  on  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  in." 

•  The  word  "  eighth  "  ii  here  inserted  in  the  trmnscript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JUNE  25,  1787 


166 


On  the  question 

Man<;  no.  Con!  no.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  no.  K  no.  Del.  no.  li- 
no.  V»  ay.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ny.    Geo.  ay.^  ^   ,  „     ,         , 

On  a  questicm  to  postpone  the  4  and  take  up  the  7.  Beaol:  ay«  — 
Mar-  Vr  N.C.  S.C.  Geo:-No«i»  Ma^  C5  N.Y.  N.J.  ^J>^-' 

On  the  qncrtion  to  agree  '  that  the  memben  of  the  2?  branch  be 


N.  Y.  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay. 


Con!  ay. 


chosen  by  the  indivi  Legialatures  "  Mas'?  ay. 
N.  J.  ay.    K  no.    Del.  ay.    IP  ay.    V»  no. 

On  a  question  on  the  cU«e  mpiiring  the  age  of  30  years  at 
least— "  it  was  agreed  to  unanimonaly: » 

On  a  question  to  strike  ontH-the  words  "  soffleient  to  ensure  thew 
independency  •  "  after  the  word  "  term  "  it  was  agreed  to. 

'  That  the  2*.  branch  hoW  their  offices  for  •  term  of  seven  yeais, 

considered  ,.  ,,       ^      ,  _  j       

M-.  Ghobdh  soggeiU  a  term  of  "  4  years,"  V*  to  be  elected  every 

^''*Mf  Raotkhph.  supported  the  idea  of  rotation,  as  favorable  to  the 
wisdom  &  stability  of  the  Corps,  which  might  possibly  be  alwiys 
sitting,  and  aiding  the  Eieeutive.  And  moves  after  "  7  years  to 
add  "  to  go  out  in  flxt  proportion  "  which  was  agreed  to. 

W  WiLLUMBON.    soggots  "  6  yeafs,"  as  more  convenient  for 
Rotation  thsn  7  years. 

MI  Bwaauis  seconds  him.  ,     .        _,  „ 

m  Rm>  proposed  that  they  si  hold  Aeir  offlaw     dnnng  good 
behaviour.    W  B.  Mobbis  seeonds  him. 

4  Virginia  .1W2-  "^'"jg'jfZ'Mli^^.^ti^r  to^^^^^tiSS 
latum  u  opposed  to  •  prupiit— ■!  S^''^^''^''^Jr^~~r,„LZ^  -ho  v^ 

Georgia.  ay«-4;  M«-«hn«tt«,  ComMetfcnt,  New  J«riey.  Peii»^Taiua.  ueia 

ware.  Marvland.  North  Carolina,  no— 7."       

•The  word  "noea"  la  «ritted  in  tbe  ti«wertpt.      ^    »      •>"•-■ 
.ft«  ••  Georpa  "  "f  " ?rr*"^*^  ^IST. h««—  0-«ctie»t.  New  York, 
In  the  t™"«»rtpt  ^  "^  Ttt'    II    Vr  r   -^^--^   CanOm^,   Georgia. 
New  itnty,   Delaware.   MarylMd,   H«wta   ummbb,   owk-  v— — — , 

'^^^'h.^'rSl'^i^.rft'^S-SLLly     are  t«--P—  i-  the  t»«*ipt  to 

**'''' The  word.  "The  clanae"  are  here  taeerted  ia  the  timntcript. 

•  The  word  "  a  "  >•  here  i«i«;tedlB  the  t"°r^P*_,  . 

•  The  word  "  being"  i»  here  nuCTted  In  the  tranacrlpt. 


trsn- 


i^f^^^majm 


166      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Gen.'  PiNKNET  proposed  "  4  years. "  A  longer  term »  w*  fix  them 
at  the  seat  of  Gov!  They  w1  acquire  an  interest  there,  perhaps 
transfer  their  property  &  lose  sight  of  the  States  they  represent. 
Under  these  circumstances  the  distant  States  w?  labour  under  great 
disadvantages. 

MI  Sherman  moved  to  strike  out  "  7  yeara  "  in  order  to  take 
questions  on  the  several  propositions. 

On  the  question  to  strike  out  '*  seven  " 

Mas?  ay.  ConI  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P!  no.  Del  no.  M< 
div«    Vf  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  the  question  to  insert  '*  6  years,  which  failed  5  St!  being 
ay.  5  no.  &  1  divided 

Mas':  no.  Coni  ay.  N.  T.  no.  N.  J.  no.  P!  ay,  Del  ay. 
Ml  div^    Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

On  a  motion  to  adjourn,  the  votes  were  5  for  5  ag?  it  &  1  divided, 
—Con.  N.J.  P?  DeL  Vf  —ay.*  Mass*!  N.T.  N.C.  S.C.  Geo:  no.* 
Marj'1  divided. 

On  the  question  for  "  5  years  "  it  was  lost. 

Mas."  no.  Con*  ay.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  no.  K  ay.  Del.  ay. 
W  div*.   V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo  no.' 

Adji 


Tuesday.  June  26.    m  Convbntiok 

The  duration  of  the  2^  branch  •  under  consideration. 

MF  Ghorcm  moved  to  fill  the  blank  with  "  six  years,"  one  third 
ol  the  members  to  go  out  every  second  year. 

M^  WiLaoN  2**  the  motion. 

Gen'  PiNKNEY  opposed  six  years  in  favor  of  four  years.  The 
States  he  said  had  different  interests.  Those  of  the  Southern,  and  of 
S.  Carolina  in  particular  were  different  from  the  Northern.    If  the 


'  The  word  "  time  "  i»  Bubetituted  in  the  tranicript  for  "  term.'* 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  read*:  "  Maaaachusetta,  OonTierttcnt,  New  York, 
New  Jersey,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  OeorgU,  ajre— 7;  Pannaylvania, 
Delaware,  Virginia,  no — 3;  Maryland,  divided." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "Connecticut,  Pennsrlvania,  Delaware, 
Virpnia,  North  Carolina,  aye— 5;  Maaaachusetta,  New  York,  iJew  Jerfwy,  South 
Carolina,  fieorgin,  no — fi;  Maryland,  divido<l." 

•  The  figure  "  5  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  roads:  "Connecticut,  Pennavlvania,  Delaware, 
Virginia,  North  Carolina,  aye— 5;  Massachusetta,  New  York,  New  Jersey,  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no — !i;  Maryland,  divided." 

•  The  word  "  being  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  26,  1787 


167 


Senaton  should  be  appointed  for  a  long  term,  they  w<  aetUe  in  the 
State  where  they  exercieed  their  functions;  and  would  in  a  little 
time  be  rathw  th«  repreeenUtiTea  of  that  than  of  the  SUte  appoints 

them.  _*    J   • 

IC  RuAD  imw*  that  the  term  be  nine  years.  This  ^  admit  of  a 
very  convenient  roUtion,  one  third  going  out  triennially.  He  w1 
still  pr«fer  "  during  good  behaviour,"  but  being  little  supported  in 
that  idea,  he  was  willing  to  take  the  longest  term  that  could  be 
obtained. 

IT.  Broomi  2*!*  the  motion. 

Ml  Madook.    In  order  to  judge  of  the  form  to  be  given  to  this 
institution,  it  will  be  proper  to  take  a  view  of  the  ends  to  be  served 
by  it.     These  were  first  to  protect  the  people  ag?  their  rulers: 
secondly  to  protect  the  people  ag*  the  transient  impressions  into 
which  they  themselves  might  be  led.    A  people  deUberating  m  a 
temperate  moment,  and  with  the  experience  of  other  nations  before 
them,  on  the  plan  of  Gov*  most  likely  to  secure  their  happiness,  wo^d 
fint  be  aware,  that  those  charg*.  with  the  pubUc  happiness,  naght 
betray  their  trart.    An  obvious  precaution  agf  thia  danger  w-.  be 
to  divide  the  trust  between  different  bodies  of  men,  who  might 
watch  k  check  each  other.    In  this  they  w1  be  governed  by  the  same 
prudence  which  has  prevailed  in  organizing  the  subordinate  depart- 
ments  of  Gov!,  where  all  business  liable  to  abuses  »  »^«  *«  P"* 
thro'  separate  handa,  the  one  being  a  check  on  the  other.    It  w^  next 
occur  to  such  a  people,  that  they  themselves  were  li^*'^'**  t^^P^";";^ 
errors,  thro'  want  of  information  as  to  their  true  interest,  and  that 
men  chosen  for  a  short  term.  &  employed  but  a  smaU  portion  of  that 
in  pubUc  affairs,  might  err  from  the  same  cause.    This  reflection 
w1  naturaUy  miggest  that  the  Govl  be  so  constituted,  as  that  oneof 
its  branches  might  have  an  opp?  of  acquiring  a  competent  knowledge 
of  the  public  interests.   Another  reflection  equally  becoming  a  people 
on  such  an  occasion,  w»  be  that  they  themselves,  as  weU  as  a  numw- 
ous  body  of  Bepresentatives,  were  liable  to  err  also,  f rom  ficklenessawl 
passion.    A  necessary  fence  ag?  this  danger  would  be  to  setoet  a 
portion  of  enlightened  citiasna.  whose  limited  MSi^,  »f  f  fi™/>«f 
might  seasonably  interpose  ag- impetuous  councils.   It  ought  finidly  to 
occur  to  a  people  deliberating  on  a  Gov!  for  themselves,  that  as  differ- 
ent  interests  necessarily  result  from  the  liberty  meant  to  be  secured, 
the  major  interest  might  under  sudden  impulses  be  tempted  to  commit 
injustice  on  the  minorily.    In  all  civilised  Countries  the  people  fsU 
into  different  classes  hav?  a  real  or  supposed  difference  of  intereett. 
There  wiU  be  creditors  ft  debtors,  farmers,  merch".  &  manufacturers 


168      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

There  will  be  particularly  the  diatinetion  of  rich  A  poor.    It  waa  true 
aa  had  been  obaervl  [by  M»  Pinkney]  we  had  not  among  oa  thoae 
hereditary  digtinctions,  of  rank  which  were  •  great  aooroe  of  the 
conteata  in  the  ancient  Gov**,  aa  well  aa  the  modem  SUtea  of  Europe, 
nor  thoae  extremee  of  wealth  or  poverty  which  characterize  the  latter. 
We  cannot  however  be  regarded  even  at  thia  time,  aa  one  homogeneona 
maaa,  in  which  every  thing  that  affecta  a  part  will  affect  in  the  same 
manner  the  whole.    In  framing  a  ayrtem  which  we  wiah  to  laat  for 
ages,  we  «h*  not  loee  aight  of  the  changea  which  agea  will  produce. 
An  increaae  of  population  will  of  neeeaaity  increaae  the  proportion 
of  thoae  who  will  labour  under  all  the  hardahipa  of  life,  ft  aecrctly 
aigh  for  a  more  equal  diatribution  of  ite  bleaainga.    Theae  may  in 
time  outnumber  thoae  who  are  placed  above  the  fedinga  of  in- 
digence.   According  to  the  equal  laws  of  auffrage,  the  power  will  alide 
into  the  hands  of  the  former.    No  agrarian  attempta  hare  yet  been 
made  in  in  this  Country,  but  aymtoms,  of  a  leveling  apirit,  aa  we  have 
underatood,  have  sufficiently  appeared  in  a  certain  quartera  to  give 
notice  of  the  future  danger.    How  is  thia  danger  to  be  guarded  ag?  on 
republican  principles!   How  is  the  danger  in  all  caaea  of  intereated 
coalitions  to  oppreaa  the  minority  to  be  guarded  ai^t    Among  other 
means  by  the  establishment  of  a  body  in  the  Gov?  sufficiently  re- 
spectable for  its  wisdom  &  virtue,  to  aid  on  such  emergences,  the 
preponderance  of  justice  by  throwing  its  weight  into  that  scale. 
Such  being  the  objects  of  the  second  branch  in  the  propoaed  Gov? 
he  thought  a  considerable  duration  ought  to  be  given  to  it.     He 
did  not  conceive  that  the  term  of  nine  years  could  threaten  any 
real  danger;  but  in  pursuing  his  particular  ideas  on  the  subject,  he 
should  require  that  the  long  term  allowed  to  the  2^  branch  should 
not  commence  till  such  a  period  of  life,  as  would  render  a  per- 
petual disqualification  to  be  re-elected  little  inconvenient  either  in 
a  public  or  private  view.     He  observed  that  as  it  waa  more  than 
probable  we  were  now  digesting  a  plan  which  in  its  operation  w1 
decide  for  ever  the  fate  of  Republican  Gov^  we  ought  not  only  to 
provide  every  guard  to  liberty  that  its  preservation  c(*  require,  but 
be  equally  careful  to  supply  the  defecta  which  our  own  experience 
had  particularly  pointed  out. 

Mr  Shekman.  GovI  is  instituted  for  those  who  live  under  it.  It 
ought  therefore  to  be  so  constituted  aa  not  to  be  dangeroua  to  their 
liberties.  The  more  permanency  it  has  the  worse  if  it  be  a  bad  Gov? 
Frequent  elections  are  necessary  to  preserve  the  good  behavior  of 
rulers.  They  also  tend  to  give  permanency  to  the  Government,  by 
preserving  that  good  behavior,  because  it  ensures  their  re-election. 


SS88I0N  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  26.  1787 


169 


In  Cwwetkmt  elections  have  been  very  frequent,  yet  great  tUbihty 
*  iinilormity  both  m  to  pcrwni  ft  m^atuw.  hat*  been  experienced 
fnnn  its  original  eeUbliahm?  to  the  p.-ewM  time;  a  period  of  more 
than  180  yeaw.  He  wiriied  to  hf  ovUion  made  for  iteadmeM 
&  wiwJom  in  the  v^em  to  be  a.  but  he  thought  .ix  or  four 

yean  would  be  aufflcient.    Ue  Hhi  .a      -tent  with  either. 

W  Bead  wiriied  it  to  be  coniidered  by  the  nnaU  States  that  it  was 
their  interest  that  we  should  become  one  people  as  much  as  possible; 
that  Bute  attachments  shl  be  extinguished  ss  much  as  possible ;  that 
the  Senate  sh*  be  so  constituted  as  to  have  the  feelings  of  Citixens 

of  the  whole.  .    .    ,     .  ^    »u 

Ml  Hamilton.    He  did  not  mean  to  enter  particularly  into  the 
subject.    He  concurred  with  IT.  Madison  in  thinking  we  were  now  to 
decide  for  ever  the  fate  of  Bepublican  Government;  and  that  »f  we 
did  not  give  to  that  form  due  stabUity  and  wisdom,  it  would  be  dis- 
graced  ft  lost  among  ourselves,  disgraced  ft  lost  to  mankind  for  ever. 
He  acknowledged  himself  not  to  think  favorably  of  Republican  Gov- 
emment;  but  addressed  his  remarks  to  those  who  did  think  favor- 
ably of  it,  in  order  to  prevail  on  them  to  tone  their  Government  as 
high  as  possible.    He  professed  himself  to  be  as  lealous  an  advocate 
for  liberty  as  any  man  whatever,  and  trusted  he  should  be  as  willing 
a  martyr  to  it  though  he  differed  as  to  the  form  m  which  it  wss 
most  eligible.-He  concurred  also  in  the  general  observations  of  [^ 
Madison]  on  the  subject,  which  might  be  supported  by  others  if  it 
were  necessary.    It  was  cerUinly  true;  that  nothing  like  an  equalUy 
of  property  existed:  that  an  inequality  would  exist  as  long  as  iberty 
existed,  and  that  it  would  unavoidably  result  from  that  very  liberty 
itself     This  inequality  of  property  constituted  the  great  ft  funda- 
mental distinction  in  Society.     When  the  Tribunitial  power  had 
levelled  the  boundary  between  the  patrician$  ft  pkbmn.,  what  fol- 
lowed t    The  distinction  between  rich  ft  poor  was  substituted.    He 
meant  not  however  to  enlarge  on  the   subject.     He  rose   prin- 
eipally   to   remark  that   [Ml   Sherman]    seemed   not  to   recollect 
that  one  branch  of  the  proposed  Gov?  was  so  formed,  as  to  render 
it  particularly  the  guardians  of  the  poorer  orders  of  C»t«ens; 
nor  to  have  adverted  to  the  true  causes  of  the  stabUity  which  had 
been  exemplified  in  Con*    Under  the  British  system  as  well  as  the 
federal,  many  of  the  great  powers  appertaining  to  Gov?  particularly 
all  those  relating  to  foreign  Nations  were  not  in  the  hands  of  the 
Gov*  there.    Thdr  internal  affairs  also  were  extremely  simple,  owing 
to  sundry  catises  many  of  which  were  peculiar  to  that  Country.    Of 
late  the  Qoverm^  had  entirely  given  way  to  the  people,  and  had  in 


I 


170      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

fact  TOipcnded  many  at  lt«  ofdlmrjr  fanctioiu  in  order  to  prevent 
those  turbuleut  tcenen  which  had  appeared  ttaewh  re.  He  aao 
M'  S.  whether  the  State  at  this  time,  dare  impoae  4  colk-ct  a  tax  M  jrt 
people!  To  thcae  caoaea  A  not  to  the  frequency  of  electio  «,  the  eflfect, 
as  far  aa  it  existed  ought  to  be  chiefly  ascribed. 

W-  Gebbt.  wished  we  could  be  united  in  oar  ideas  concerning  » 
permanent  Gov!    All  aim  at  th«  same  end.  buf  there  are  «Ttat  dU- 
ferencea  aa  to  the  means.    One  circumstanee  He  thought  should  b* 
carefully  attended  to.  There  were  not  1/1000  part  of  mir  fallow  citiaana 
who  were  not  agf  every  approach  towards  Monarchy.     WiU  tlwy 
ever  agree  to  a  plan  whicli  seems  to  make  such  an  approach.    The 
Convention  ought  to  be  extremely  cautioua  in  what  they  hold  out  to 
the  people.    Whatever  plan  may  be  proposed  wUl  be  espoused  with 
warmth  by  many  out  of  reapect  to  the  quarter  H  Proceed,  from 
aa  well  aa  from  an  approbation  of  the  plan  itaelf.    And  if  the  plan 
should  be  of  such  a  nature  aa  to  rouse  a  violent  opposition,  it  la  eaay 
to  foresee  that  discord  ft  confusion  will  ensue,  and  it  if  even  pofr 
aible  that  we  may  become  a  prey  to  foreign  powers.     He  did  not 
deny  the  position  of  M^  Madison,  that  the  majority  wiU  i^f^tlly 
violate  justice  when  they  have  an  interest  in  so  doing;  But  did  not 
think  there  was  any  such  temptation  in  thia  Country.    Our  aituation 
was  different  from  that  of  G.  Britain:  and  the  great  body  of  lands  yet 
to  be  parceUed  out  ft  settled  would  very  much  prolong  the  difference. 
Notwithstanding  the  symtoms  of  injustice  which  had  marked  many 
of  our  public  Councils,  they  had  not  proceeded  so  far  as  not  to  leave 
hopes  that  there  would  be  a  tufflcient  sense  of  jusUce  ft  virtue  for 
the  purpose  of  Gov?    He  admitted  the  evils  arising  from  a  frequency 
of  elections:  and  would  agree  to  give  the  Senate  a  duration  of  four 
or  five  years.    A  longer  term  would  defeat  itself.    It  never  would 

be  adopted  by  the  people.  ^  ,  ,  „      ,         *v.^ 

Mr  WiuBON  did  not  mean  to  repeat  what  had  fallen  from  others, 
but  w^  add  an  observation  or  two  which  he  believed  had  not  yet 
been  suggested.  Every  nation  may  be  regarded  in  two  relatioM 
1 »  to  its  own  citisens.  2  >  to  foreign  nations.  It  is  therefore  not 
only  liable  to  anarchy  &  tyranny  within,  but  has  wars  to  «yo»a  • 
treaties  to  obtain  from  abroad.  The  Senate  will  probably  be  tto 
depositary  of  the  powers  concerning  the  latter  objects.  It  oujjt 
therefore  to  be  made  respectable  in  the  eyes  of  foreign  Nations.  The 
true  reason  why  0.  Britain  has  not  yet  listened  to  a  commercial  treaty 
with  us  has  been,  because  she  had  no  confidence  in  the  sUbihty  or 

'  Th«  figuxet  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  first "  and  "  lecondly  "  in  the 
tranacript. 


SESSION  OF  TUB8DAT,  JUNE  26,  1787 


m 


•Oewy  of  oar  Oownunent.  9  3r««  with  •  roUtkm.  wiU  pwrW. 
thcM  d«dr»bl«  quiliti*;  and  fiw  our  OofJ  an  adTintac*  in  this 
raptet  OTer  MoMTchy  itwlf.  ^  •  moiurehy  mach  romt  dire* 
depend  on  the  Umpw  of  the  mM.  In  lach  •  body,  tho  pmonal 
ehJmtw  WiU  be  lort  in  the  polltkaO.  He  W  ^ -other  obwrr.. 
tion.  The  popnlw  objeetkm  e*?  appointing  any  pnblie  body  for  » 
lone  term  we.  that  it  mijht  by  «radual  eneroaehment.  prolong  IteeU 
flrrt  into  a  body  for  life,  and  flnaUy  beeome  a  her^litary  one.  1% 
would  be  a  iatirfactory  anwrer  to  thia  objeeUon  that  aa  *  would 
go  out  trienniaUy.  there  would  be  alwaya  three  diriaiona  holding 
their  placea  for  unequal  terma,'  and  oonaeqnently  aeting  under  tfca 
influence  of  different  view.,  and  different  impulaea-On  the  queetioB 
for  9  yeara,  H  to  go  out  triennially 

Maaa^  no.    Con!  no.    N.  Y.  no.    N.  J.  no.    P?  ay.    Dd.  a^* 
M«.no.    V?ay.    N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

On  the  queation  for  6  yeare  H  to  go  out  biennially 
Maae^^  ay.    ConJ  ay.    N.  Y.  no.    N.  J.  no.    R  ay.    Del.  ay. 
Mf  ay.    V»  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

•"To  receive  flxt  etipcndB  by  which  they  may  be  oompenaated 
for  their  aerricea."    •coneidered  v    ,j  v     n     ^  » 

General  Pinkniy  propoted  "  that  no  Salary  ahoald  be  allowed, 
Aa  thia  [the  Senatorial]  branch  waa  meant  to  repr«Knt  the  wealth 
of  the  Country,  it  ought  to  be  compoaed  of  peraona  of  wealth;  and 
if  no  aUowance  waa  to  be  made  the  wealthy  alone  would  undertake 
theeervice.   He  moved  to  atrike  out  the  dauae. 

Docts  PnAKKUW  eeconded  the  motion.  He  wiahed  the  Convwition 
to  itand  fair  with  the  people.  There  were  in  it  a  number  of  young 
men  who  would  probably  be  of  the  Senate.  If  lucrative  appoint- 
ments should  be  recommended  we  might  be  chargeable  with  having 
carved  out  places  for  ourselves.  On  the  qucrtion.  Mas!*  Connecti- 
cut •  P?  BJ".  S.Carolina  ay.»  N.Y.  N.J.  Del.  Tirg?  N.C.  Geo.  no.* 
•  Qner.  whtther  Comwctteat  ■hoaM  not  be— no,  *  D«l>war«,  ay.* 


■  Thf  word  "  ttew.  "  U  iubrtltuted  lii  **•  *«»«2lPt/*  'iJjiJXJl    Vl^tata. 

Molina,  South  CaroUna,  0«>rgU,  >»—«•"  „        , „.  ..— .    •p;__„u 

vwii^  DatawwTMMTlwia.  VlrgiBto.  North  C«olta..  .je-Ti  Kow  York,  N«r 
•'•^TW^r^'^i^'cSST^tiTbl^th  B-ol«tion-  at.  tam  i»«t.d  i.  th. 

*'*"n^woTd  "  htlng  "  ii  here  Inierted  in  tht  tram>crlj»t  

•Ab  taterromtlon  mark  aad  the  iBJtlah  "JJtf."  are  here  tawrted  In  th; 

""™r™f    flmre  "6''^  It  here  inierted  Jn  the  tramcript. 
•  The  tgUK  "  6  "  U  here  inacrted  in  the  trancript. 


MKXOrOPV   RtSOlUTION   TBT   CHART 

(ANSI  ond  ISO  TEST  CI^ART  No   J) 


La    mmim 

"*       140 


12.2 

li 


I^MJ4 


_j  /APPLIED  IN/MGE    Inc 

S^  !65J  East   Ma.>  SUeet 

Sj  Roch«5tef,   New   ro'k  U609       USA 

'^^  (716)  *82  -  0300  -  Phone 

aSB  (716)   288  -  5989  -  Fo« 


172      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

M'.  Williamson  moved  to  change  the  expression  into  these  words 
towit  "  tr  ceive  a  compensation  for  the  devotion  of  their  time  to 
theoubl'-  rvice."  The  motion  was  seconded  by  M?  Elseworth.  And 
was^  agreed  to  by  aU  the  States  except  S.  Carol?  It  seemed  to  be 
meant  only  to  get  rid  of  the  word  "  fixt  "  and  leave  greater  room  for 
modifying  the  provision  on  this  point  ,     -  ^v 

M'.  Elbewobth  moved  to  strike  out  "  to  be  paid  out  of  the 
nati!  Treasury  "  and  insert  "  to  be  paid  by  their  respective  States. 
If  the  Senate  waa  meant  to  strengthen  the  Govt  it  ought  to  have  the 
confidence  of  the  States.  The  States  wUl  have  an  interest  in  keeping 
up  a  representation,  and  will  make  such  provision  for  supporting  the 
members  as  will  ensure  their  attendance. 

W  Madison  considered  this*  a  departure  from  a  fundamental 
principle,  and  subverting  the  end  intended  by  allowing  the  Senate  a 
duration  of  6  years.    They  would  if  this  motion  should  be  agreed 
to   hold  their  places  durinp;  pleasure;  during  the  pleasure  of  the 
State  Legislatures.    One  great  end  of  the  inscitution  was,  that  being 
a  firm,  wise  and  impartial  body,  it  might  not  only  give  stability 
to  the  Gea'  Gov*  in  its  operations  on  individuals,  but  hold  an  even 
balance  among  different  States.    The  motion  would  make  the  Senate 
like  Congress,  the  mere  Agents  &  Advocates  of  State  interests  & 
views,  instead  of  being  the  impartial  umpires  &  Guardians  of  justice 
and*  general  Good.     Cong!  had  lately  by  the  establishment  of  a 
board  with  fuU  powers  to  decide  on  the  mutual  claims  be-  between  the 
U  States  &  the  individual  States,  fairly  acknowledged  themselves  to 
be  unfit  for  discharging  this  part  of  the  business  referred  to  thou 
by  the  Confederation. 

Mi  Dayton  considered  the  payment  of  the  Senate  by  the  State« 
as  fatal  to  their  independence,  he  waa  decided  for  paying  them  out 
of  the  Nat*  Treasury. 

On  the  question  for  payment  of  the  Senate  to  be  left  to  tBe 
States  as  moved  by  W  Elseworth.* 

Mass^  no.  Con*  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  no. 
m  no.   V?  no.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

Col.  Mason.  He  did  not  rise  to  make  any  motion,  but  to  hint 
an  idea  which  seemed  to  be  proper  for  consideration.    One  impor- 


» The  word  "  wfti  "  1»  omitted  in  the  transcript. 
"  Tlie  word  "  as  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  the "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript.     .  .  .    ^.     ^  ,  . 

•  The  phrase  " it  passed  in  the  negative"  is  here  Inserted  in  the  transcript. 
•In  the  transcript  the  vote  read.:  "Connecticut,  >ew  York.  New  Jersey. 

Soiith  Carolina,  Geor^a,  aye-6;  Massachusett.,  Pennsylvania.  Delaware,  Mary- 
land, Virginia,  North  Carolina,  no— «." 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JUNE  26,  1787 


173 


tant  object  in  coostitating  the  Senate  was  to  secure  the  rights  of 
property.  To  give  them  weight  &  firmness  for  this  purpose,  a  con- 
siderable duration  in  office  was  thought  necessary.  But  a  longer 
term  than  6  years,  would  be  of  no  avail  in  this  respect,  if  needy 
persons  should  be  appointed.  He  suggested  therefore  the  propriety 
of  annexing  to  the  office  a  qualification  of  property.  He  thought 
this  would  be  very  practicable ;  as  the  rules  of  taxation  would  supply 
a  scale  for  measuring  the  degree  of  wealth  possessed  by  every  man. 
A  question  was  then  taken  whether  the  words  "  to  be  paid  oat 
of  the  public  ^  treasaiy,"  should  stand." 


ay.  Con'  no.  N.  Y.  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay. 
M*.  ay.    V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

MT  BUTLEB  moved  to  strike  out  the  ineligibility  of  Senators  to 
State  offices. 

Ml  Williamson  seconded  the  motion. 

Mt  WiLSOK  remarked  the  additional  dependence  this  w**  create 
in  the  Senators  on  the  States.  The  longer  the  time  he  observed 
allotted  to  the  officer,  the  more  compleat  will  be  the  dependance,  if  it 
exists  at  alL 

Gen.'  PiNKMET  was  for  making  the  States  as  much  as  could  be 
conveniently  done,  a  part  of  the  Gen!  Govh  If  the  Senate  was  to  be 
appointed  by  the  States,  it  ought  in  pursuance  of  the  same  idea  to 
be  paid  by  the  States:  and  the  States  ought  not  to  be  barred  from 
the  opportunity  of  calling  members  of  it  into  offices  at  home.  Such  a 
restriction  would  also  discourage  the  ablest  men  from  going  into  the 
Senate. 

Mr  WiiAUMBOK  moved  a  resolution  so  peimed  as  to  admit  of  the 
two  following  questions.  1.*  whether  the  members  of  the  Senate  should 
be  ineligible  to  &  incapable  of  holding  offices  under  ike  U.  Statet 

2.*  Whether  &&  under  the  particular  States. 

On  the  Question  to  postpone  in  order  to  consider*  Williainson's 


Besol?  Masf  no. 


Con?  ay.    N.  Y.  no.    N.  J.  no.    P!  ay.    Del.  ay. 
y.   V?  ay.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.» 
M!  Gebbt  &  M!  Madison — ^move  to  add  to  HP.  Williamsons  1,* 
Quest:  "  and  for  1  year  thereafter."    On  this  amend? 

'  The  word  "  pnblie  "  is  elutnged  to  "  luttlonal "  in  the  tranacript. 

■  In  the  tranacript  the  vote  K*di:  "  MatNchiuetta,  PennsylvanU,  Delawmre, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  aye— 6;  Connecticut,  Mmr  Yoric,  New  Jeney,  North  Caro- 
lina, South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— S." 

•  The  figures  "  1 »  and  «  2  "  are  changed  to  "  flrst"  and  "  Moondly  »  ia  the 
transcript. 

*  The  word  "  Mr."  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virj^inia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— ^;  Tlifsm 
chuaetta.  New  York,  New  Jera^.  no— ^." 


174      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Mas?  no.     Con!  ay.     N.  Y.  ay.    N.  J.  no.     P.  no.    Del.  ay. 
M?  ay.   Vf  ay.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no^' 

On  M^  WiU-«on'B  1  Question  as  amend?"  vz.  inelig:  &  incapable 
&c.  &c  for  1  year  &c.  ag? »  nnanimously. 

On  the  2.»  question  as  to  ineligibility  &c.  to  State  offices. 

Mas.  ay.    C?  no.    N.  Y.  no.    N.  J.  no.    P.  ay.    Del.no.    M*  no. 
V?  ay.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.  Geo.  no."  ,     .  .    ^ 

The  5.*  Besol:  "  that  each  branch  have  the  right  of  onginating 
acts  "  vas  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

Adj^ 


Wednesday  Jcne  27.    in  Convention 

MI  RuTLiDGE  moved  to  postpone  the  6*  Resolution,  dcSning  the 
powers  of  Cong!  in  order  to  take  up  the  7  &  8  which  involved  the 
most  fundamental  points;  the  rules  of  suffrage  in  the  2  branches 
which  V-  a  agreed  to  nem.  con.  .       ,        * 

A  (Uestion  being  proposed  on  Resol:  T:  declaring  that  the  suf- 
frage in  the  first  branch  8?  be  according  to  an  equitable  ratio. 

M!  L.  Martin  contended  at  great  length  and  with  great  eagerness 
that  the  General  Gov*  was  meant  merely  to  preserve  the  State 
Govern!":  not  to  govern  individuals:  that  its  powers  ought  to  be 
kept  within  narrow  limits;  that  if  too  little  power  was  given  to  it, 
more  might  be  added;  but  that  if  too  much,  it  could  never  be  re- 
sumed: that  individuals  as  such  have  little  to  do  but  with  their  own 
States-  that  the  Gen?  Gov!  has  no  more  to  apprehend  from  the  States 
composing  the  Union,   while  it   pursues  proper   measures,   that* 
a  Gov!  over  individuals  has  to  apprehend  from  its  subjects:  that  to 
resort  to  the  Citizens  at  large  for  their  sanction  to  a  new  Govern.  wiU 
be  throwing  them  back  into  a  State  of  Nature:  that  the  dissolution 
of  the  State  Gov**  is  involved  in  the  nature  of  the  process:  that  the 

>ln  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Xew  York,  Delaware, 
Maryland  Virg?i?U  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina.  aye-7i  Ma.~tchu.ett., 
New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Georgia,  no--4.  _ 

•  The  word  "  to  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  figure  "  2  "  is  changed  to  "  second  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  transcript  italicizes  the  word.  "  Stete  offices.'  ,      ,r-,^„u 
•in  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Pf-n^l'''"'' J•'?!")^ 

ay.^3;  Connecticut,  New  York,  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Maryland,  North  Caro- 
Una,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 8." 

•  The  figure  "  5  "  is  changed  to  "  fifth  "    n  the  transcnpt  .^„„rini 
'The  words  "the  seventh  Resolution"  are  substituted  in  the  transcript 

'"'  "  Th^woJd  "  than  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  that." 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JUNE  27,  1787 


175 


people  have  no  right  to  do  this  withont  the  consent  of  those  to  whom 
they  have  delegated  their  power  for  State  purposes:  through  their 
tongue  only  they  can  speak,  through  their  ears,  only,  can  hear:  that 
the  States  have  shewn  a  good  disposition  to  comply  with  the  Acts,  of 
Cong*,  weak,  contemptibly  weak  as  that  body  has  been;  and  have 
failed  through  inability  alone  to  comply:  that  the  heaviness  of  the 
private  debts,  and  the  waste  of  property  durina;  the  war,  were  the 
chief  causes  of  this  inability :  that  he  did  not  conceive  the  instances 
mentioned  by  W.  Madison  of  compacts  between  V»  &  M*  between 
Pf  &  N.  J.  or  of  troops  raised  by  Mass?  for  defence  against  the  Rebels, 
to  be  violations  of  the  articles  of  confederation — that  an  equal  vote  in 
each  State  was  essential  to  the  federal  idea,  and  was  founded  in  justice 
&  freedom,  not  merely  in  policy:  that  tho'  the  States  may  give  up  this 
right  of  sovereignty,  yet  they  had  not,  and  ought  not:  that  the  States 
like  individuals  were  in  a  State  of  nature  equally  sovereign  &  free.    In 
order  to  prove  that  individual   in  a  State  of  nature  are  equally  free 
&  independent  he  read  passages  from  Locke,  Vattel,  Lord  Summers- 
Priestly.    To  prove  that  the  case  is  the  same  with  States  till  they  sur- 
render their  equal  sovereignty,  he  read  other  passages  in  Locke  t 
Vattel,  and  also  Rutherford :  that  the  States  being  equal  cannot  treat 
or  confederate  so  as  to  give  up  an  equalit:  of  votes  without  giving 
up  their  liberty:  that  the  propositions  on  the  table  were  a  system 
of  slavery  for  10  States:  that  as  Yt  Mas*!  &  Pf  have  *%o  of  the  votes 
they  can  do  as  they  please  without  a  miraculous  Union  of  the  other 
ten:  that  they  will  have  nothing  to  do,  but  to  gain  over  one  of  the 
ten  to  make  them  compleat  masters  of  the  rest :  that  they  can  then 
appoint  an  Execut?  &  Judiciary  &  legislate  ^  for  them  as  they  please : 
that  there  was  &  would  cortinue  a  natural  predilection  &  partiality 
in  men  for  their  own  States;  that  the  States,  particularly  the  smaller, 
would  never  allow  a  negative  to  be  exercised  over  their  laws:  that 
no  State  in  ratifying  the  Confederation  had  objected  to  the  equality 
of  votes;  that  the  complaints  at  present  run  not  ag?'  this  equality 
but  the  want  of  power;  that  16  members  from  V»  would  be  more 
likely  to  act  in  concert  than  a  like  number  formed  of  members  from 
different  States;  that  instead  of  a  junction  of  the  small  States  as  a 
remedy,  he  thought  a  division  of  the  large  States  would  be  more 
eligible.— This  was  the  substance  of  a  spfHjh  which  was  continued 
more  than  three  hours.     He  was  too  much  exhausted  he  said  to 
finish  his  remarks,  and  reminded  the  House  that  he  should  tomorrow, 
resume  them. 
Adj4 

■  The  word  "  legislature  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  legislate." 


'■  II 


176 


DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


Thcbsdat  Juni  28^    ik  Contention 

W  L.  Maotin  regmned  his  discourse,  'H)ntending  that  the  OeuJ 
Gov?  ought  to  be  fomed  for  the  States,  not  for  individuals:  that 
if  the  States  were  to  have  votes  in  proportion  to  their  numbers  of 
peoju.  Uwould  be  the  same  thing  whether  «>">  '«P--^  ^^^ 
were  chosen  by  the  Legislatures  or  the  people;  the  smaUer  States 
loZdT^M^y  enslaved;  that  if  the  large  States  have  the  same 
TterestwiSX  smaller  as  was  urged,  there  could  be  no  danger  m 
S  them  an  equal  vote;  they  would  not  injure  tbemselves.  and 
fhey  could  not  injure  the  large  ones  on  that  ™PP«;»*;°°^f  «jj 
injuring  themselves  and  if  the  interests,  were  not  the  "me.  the 
inequalL  of  suffrage  w-.  be  dangerous  to  the  smaller  Sta  es:  that  it 
S  bel  vain  to  propose  any  plan  offensive  to  the  rulers  of  fte 
Sates  whose  influence  over  the  people  will  certainly  prevent  their 
SuHrthat  the  large  States  were  weak  at  present  in  proportion 
to  thrir  extent:  &  could  only  be  made  formidable  to  the  small  ones, 
Ty  te  wdght  of  their  votes;  that  in  case  a  dissolution  of  tiie  Umon 
sJoSd  take  place,  the  small  States  would  have  nothing  to  fear  from 
S  pTerf  thai  if  in  such  a  c«k.  the  thr«»  great  Stat^  ^ould 
leiue  themselves  together,  the  other  ten  cou  d  do  so  too:  &  tha^  he 
had  rather  see  partial  confederacies  take  place,  than  the  plan  on 

*'Thii"was  the  substance  of  the  residue  of  his  discourf-*  which  was 
delivered  with  much  diffuseness  &  coMiderable  vehemence 

Mt  Lansing  &  W.  Dayton  moved  to  strike  out  "not.  no  that 
the  7  ar^might  read  that  the  rights^  of  suffrage  in  the  ir  branch 
ought  to  be  according  to  the  rule  established  by  the  Conf edeijtu,^ 

M'  Dayton  expressed  great  anxiety  that  the  question  might  not 
be  put  till  tomorrow;  Govemi  Livingston  being  kept  away  by  in- 
S^sposition,  and  the  representation  of  N.  J«"f 7.  ^^*f  ^^ '^„T/t 

Mr  WiixuMSON.  thought  that  if  any  political  truth  could  be 
grounded  on  mathematical  demonstrjition,  it  was  that  if  the  States 
were  equally  sovereign  now,  and  parted  with  equal  proportions  of 
sovereignty,  that  they  would  remain  equally  «,vereign.  He  could 
not  comprehend  how  the  smaUer  States  would  be  injured  in  the 
case,  and  wished  some  Gentleman  would  vouchsafe  a  solution  of  it. 
Ee  observed  that  the  smaU  States,  if  they  had  a  plurality  of  vot«i 
would  have  an  interest  in  throwing  the  burdens  off  their  own  shoul- 


'  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  rights  "  in  the  singular. 


SESSION  OP  THUB8DAY,  JUNE  28,  1787 


177 


den  on  thw  of  the  large  one*.  He  begged  that  the  expected  addi- 
tion  of  new  State*  from  the  Wertward  might  be  kept  in  *  view.  They 
would  be  nnall  States,  they  would  be  poor  Statea,  they  would  be 
unable  to  pay  in  proportion  to  their  numberi;  their  dittanee  from 
maricet  rendering  the  produce  of  their  labour  leas  valuable;  they 
would  conaequently  be  tempted  to  combine  for  the  purpoae  of  laying 
burdena  on  commerce  &  conaumption  which  would  fall  with  greatett* 
weight  on  the  old  SUtea. 

jp  Uadbon,  a?  he  waa  much  diapoaed  to  concur  in  any  expedient 
not  inconsistent  with  fundamental  principles,  that  could  remove  the 
difficulty  concerning  the  rule  of  representation.   But  he  could  neither 
be  convinced  that  the  rule  contended  for  waa  just,  nor  •  necessary  for 
the  safety  of  the  small  Statea  agf  the  large  States.    That  it  was 
not  just,  had  been  conceded  by  Mt  Breerly  &  m  Patterson  themselves. 
The  expedient  proposed  by  them  waa  a  new  partition  of  the  territory 
of  the  U.  States.    The  fallacy  of  the  reaaoning  drawn  from  the 
equality  of  Sovereign  States  in  the  formation  of  compacts,  Uy  in 
confounding  mere  Treaties,  in  which  were  specified  certain  duties  to 
which  the  parties  .vere  to  be  bound,  and  certain  rules  by  which  their 
subjecta  were  to  be  reciprocaUy  governed  in  their  intercourse,  with 
8  compact  by  which  an  authority  was  created  paramount  to  the 
parties,  ft  making  laws  for  the  government  of  them.    If  Prance,  Eng- 
land &  Spain  were  to  enter  into  a  Treaty  for  the  reguUtion  of  com- 
merce &e  with  the  Prince  of  Monacho  &  4  or  5  other  of  the  amaUeet 
sovereigns  of  Europe,  they  would  not  heeiUte  to  treat  as  equala, 
and  to  make  the  regulations  perfectly  reciprocal.    Wl  the  case  be 
the  same,  if  a  CouncU  were  to  be  formed  of  deputies  from  each 
with  authority  and  discretion,  to  raise  money,  levy  troops,  determine 
the  value  of  coin  4c  t    Would  30  or  40.  miUion*  of  people  aubmit 
their  fortunes  into  the  hands,  of  a  few  thousands  t    If  they  did  it 
would  only  prove  that  they  expected  more  from  the  terror  of  their 
superior  foi«e,  than  they  feared  from  the  selfishness  of  their  feeble 
assodates.     Why  are  Counties  of  the  same  states  represented  in 
proportion  to  their  numberet    Is  it  because  the  representativea  are 
chosen  by  the  people  themsdvest    So  will  be  the  repreaentatives  m 
the  Nation.'  Legislature.    Is  it  because,  the  larger  have  more  at  stake 
than  the  smaller!    The  case  wiU  be  the  same  with  the  larger  ft 
smaller  Stotee.    Is  it  because  the  laws  are  to  operate  immediately 


•  The  word.  "  Uken  into"  are  wbitlttited  ta  the  trantcript  for  "kept  in. 

•  The  word  "  greater  "  is  robrtituted  in  the  tranwript  for     greateat. 

•  The  words  "  that  it  was  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  million  "  in  the  plural. 


f '  11 


m\ 


178      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

on  their  penoiui  ft  propertiett    The  same  is  the  cue  in  some  degree 
as  the  artides  of  confederation  stand;  the  same  wiU  be  the  case  in 
a  far  greater  degree  under  the  plan  proposed  to  be  substituted.    In 
the  cases  of  captures,  of  piracies,  and  of  offences  in  a  federal  amyj 
the  property  &  persons  of  individuals  depend  on  the  laws  of  Cong^ 
By  the  plan  proposed  a  compleat  power  of  taxation,  the  highest 
prerogative  of  supremacy  is  proposed  to  be  verted  in  the  National 
Govl    Many  other  powers  are  added  which  assimilate  it  to  the  Gov^ 
of  individual  States.    The  negative  proposed  on  the  Stote  laws,  wiU 
make  it  an  essential  branch  of  the  State  Legislatures  &  of  course  wiU 
require  that  it  should  be  exercised  by  a  body  established  on  lAeprin- 
c^S,  w^th  the  others  branches  of  those  Legislatures.-That  it  u  not 
nLssary  to  secure  the  small  States  ag-  the  large  ones  he  conceived 
to  be  Equally  obvious:  Was  a  combination  of  the  l«f  o^«  f«-f «!! 
this  must  arise  either  from  some  interest  common  to  V-  M";  *  fj 
&  distinguishing  then,  'rom  the  other  States  or  from  the  mere  cirj 
cumstance  of  similarity  of  size.    Did  any  such  common  »°t««^ex«^  t 
In  point  of  situation  they  could  not  have  ^^^^"^ ^^^^""^ 
«parated  from  each  other  by  the  most  jealous  «t^^j' ^«  "^^ 
jealous  State.    In  point  of  manners,  Beligion,  and  the  other  c«^ 
instances  which  sometimes  beget  affection  between  different  com- 
munities, they  were  not  more  assimilated  than  the  f"  S^t^^J 
point  of  the  staple  productions  they  were  "/"«^>1«  "  ""y^?^ 
Sier  States  in  the  Union.     The  Staple  of  ^^- ^.J')'^ ^^ 
iUrwer  of  V*  Tofe?    Was  a  combination  to  be  apprehended  from  ttoo 
CJe  'circumstance  of  equality  of  sizeT     Experience  •«W»ted  no 
such  danger.    The  journals  of  Cong",  did  "J  P"^*  ^^  ^^"^ 
association  of  these  States  in  the  votes  recorded.    It  had  "«verj««l 
seen  that  different  Counties  in  the  same  State,  conformable  m  e». 
tent,  but  disagreeing  in  other  circumstances,  betrayed  »  P"I*«°«^ 
to  such  combinations.    Experience  rather  taught  ».  co"**^  1«!"^ 
Among  individuals  of  superior  eminence  &  weight  in  Society,  rival- 
ships  were  much  more  frequent  than  coalitions.    Among  independent 
nations,  pre-eminent  over  their  neighbours,  the  »r  ""J**  J" 
verified.    Carthage  &  Rome  tore  one  another  to  V^J^^nnt^'^ot  unit- 
ing  their  forces  to  devour  the  weaker  nations  of  the  Earth.    The 
Houses  of  Austria  &  France  were  hostile  as  long  as  they  remained 
the  greatest  powers  of  Edrope.    England  &  France  have  succeeded 
to  the  pre-eminence  &  to  the  enmity.     To  this  principle  we  owe 
perhaps  our  liberty.    A  coalition  between  those  powers  would  have 


» The  word  "  other  "  ia  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JUNB  28,  1787 


179 


been  f»Ul  to  vm.   Among  the  principal  memben  of  antient  A  Modem 
confederacies  we  find  the  aame  effect  from  the  ume  caoae.    The  con- 
tintions,  not  the  CoaUtiona  of  Sparta,  Athena  &  Thebes,  proved  fatal 
to  the  smaUer  members  of  the  Amphyctionic  Ckinfederacy.    The  con- 
tentiona,  not  the  combinations  of  Prussia  ft  Austria,  have  distracted 
&  oppressed  the  Germanic '  empire.   Were  the  large  States  formidable 
tingly  to  their  smaller  neighbours!    On  this  supposition  the  latter 
ought  to  wish  for  such  a  generul  Gov!  as  will  operate  with  equd 
energy  on  the  former  as  on  themselves.    The  more  lax  the  band, 
the  more  liberty  the  larger  will  have  to  avaU  themselves  of  their 
superior  force.    Here  again  Experience  was  an  instructive  monitor. 
"What  is  y*  situation  of  the  weak  compared  with  the  strong  in  those 
stages  of  civilization  in  which  the  violence  of  individuals  is  least 
eontrouled  by  an  efficient  Government  t   The  Heroic  period  of  Antient 
Greece  the  feudal  licentiousness  of  the  middle  ages  of  Europe,  the 
existing  condition  of  the  American  Savages,  answer  this  question. 
What  is  the  situation  of  the  minor  sovereigns  in  the  great  society 
of  independent  nations,  in  which  the  more  powerful  are  under  no 
controul  but  the  nominal  authority  of  the  law  of  Nations!    Is  not 
the  danger  to  the  former  exactly  in  proportion  to  their  weakness. 
But  there  are  cases  still  more  in  point    What  was  the  condition  of 
the  weaker  members  of  the  Amphyctionic  Confederacy.     Plutarch 
[» life  of  Themistoclee]  will  inform  ua  that  it  happened  but  too  often 
that  the  strongest  cities  corrupted  &  awed  the  weaker,  and  that 
Judgment  went  in  favor  of  the  more  powerful  party.    What  is  the 
condition  of  the  lesser  states  in  the  German  CJonfederacyt    We  all 
know  that  they  are  exceedingly  trampled  upon;  and  that  they  owe 
their  safety  as  far  as  they  enjoy  it,  partly  to  their  enlisting  them- 
selves, under  the  rival  banners  of  the  preeminent  members,  partly  to 
alliances  with  neighbouring  Princes  which  the  Constitution  of  the 
Empire  does  not  prohibit    What  is  the  state  of  things  in  the  lax 
•ystem  of  the  Dutch  Confederacy?    Holland  contains  about  Vi  the 
people,  supplies  about  %  of  •  the  money,  and  by  her  influence,  saenUy 
ft  indirectly  governs  the  whole  republic.   In  a  word ;  the  two  extrwnes 
before  us  are  a  perfect  separation  ft  a  perfect  incorporation,  of  the 
13  States.    In  the  first  case  they  would  be  independent  nations  sub- 
ject to  no  law,  but  the  law  of  nations.    In  the  last,  they  would  be 
mere  counties  of  one  entire  republic,  subject  to  one  cwnmon  law. 
In  the  first  case  the  smaUer  States  would  have  every  thing  to  fear 


•The  word  "G«man"  is  milMtituted  in  «»e  tntiiscript  for  "Gennwilc. 
•The  word  "  Bee"  i»  here  inierted  in  the  tranicript. 
*  The  word  "  ol "  ia  Mnitted  in  the  truiacript 


11 


180     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

from  the  Urger.  In  the  iMt  they  would  have  nothing  to  few.  The 
true  policy  of  the  BniU  SUtee  therefore  lies  in  promoUng  thoee 
principle*  ft  that  form  of  Got?  which  will  meet  approximate  the 
Statea  to  the  condition  of  counties  Another  con«deration  may  be 
added.  If  the  Gea'  Gov!  be  feeble,  the  large  SUtea  diatniating  ito 
continuance,  and  foreaeeing  that  thoir  importance  *  aecun^  may 
depend  on  their  own  aiie  4  atrength,  will  never  lubmit  to  a  partition. 
Give  to  the  Gen!  Gov*  aufflcient  energy  ft  permanency,  ft  you  rwnove 
the  objection.  Gradual  partitiona  of  the  large,  ft  junction,  of  the 
•mall  State.  wiU  be  facilitated,  and  time  may  effect  that  equaluation, 
which  ia  wiAed  for  by  the  mall  Statea  now,  but  can  never  be  aecom- 

^  IP  WiLwm!  The  leading  argument  of  tho«j  who  contend  for 
equaUty  of  vote,  among  the  SUte.  i.  that  the  8t^  «  "^f"^^ 
2ual.  and  being  repre^ntod  not  u  dirtrict.  of  mdividuaU,  but  in 
2Sr  pStical  ft%orporate  capacitiea.  are  entiUed  to  an  equali^  of 
SffragT  According  to  thia  mode  of  reawmng  the  "P«^<f »» 
rSTborough.  in  Eng-  which  ha.  been  aUowed  on  ^  ^»^ 
be  the  rotten  part  of  the  Conrtitution,  i.  perfectiy  right  ft  proper. 
They  are  like  the  Stotea  reprewuted  in  their  corporate  capaci^ 
like  the  States  therefore  they  are  entitled  to  equal  voice.,  <>»^Sj|™»*» 
as  many  as  London.  And  inrtead  of  the  injury  roppo|»d  hitterto 
to  be  done  to  London,  the  true  ground  of  complaint  liea  with  old 
Sarum:  for  London  inrtead  of  two  which  ia  her  proper  ihare,  aendi 
four  repreKntotivea  to  ParUament. 

m  Shebman.  The  quertion  ia  not  what  nghta  naturally  belong 
to  men*;  but  how  they  may  be  mort  equally  ft  effecturily  Koarded  m 
Society.  And  if  «)me  give  up  more  than  others  in  order  to  attain 
this  end,  there  can  be  no  room  for  complaint.  To  do  otherw«e  to 
require  an  equal  concession  from  aU.  if  it  would  create  danger  to 
the  rights  of  some,  would  be  sacrificing  the  end  to  the  meana.  rue 
rich  man  who  entera  into  Society  along  with  the  poor  man  give, 
up  more  than  the  poor  man,  yet  with  an  equal  vote  he  is  equally  safe. 
Were  he  to  have  more  votes  than  the  poor  man  in  proportion  to  lii. 
nperior  stake,  the  rights  of  the  poor  man  would  immediately  cea« 
to  be  secure.  This  consideration  prevailed  when  the  article,  of  ton- 
federation  were  formed. 

The  determination  of  the  question  from»  striking  out  the  word 
"  not  "  was  put  off  tiU  tomorrow  at  the  request  of  the  Deputies  of 


•The  word  "men"  is  need  to  the  etagutar  fa  the  tranecript. 
•The  word  " obtain"  i*  .ubetituted  fa  the  trMscnpt  for  " attain. 
•Tte  word  "from"  is  changed  to  "tor"  fa  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JUNE  28,  1787 


181 


N.Tork.    8- oppcif  p...  *  i-rt  the  8p«ch  of  Docti  P  in  thi. 
plaflc* 

^nLc.  &  ~nSZl  «-onin«.  with  e^  ^^'7*'^^^^^ 
Tto^  «  imort  every  q««rtion,  ««rd  olU«l^  ^^^^rfi^ 
marTnoe-  u  .yi,  ii  methink.  »  melancholy  proof  of  the  Imperfection 
of^e^^Xdenrt^ding.  We  indeed  .eem  to  feel  <mra^  went 
S  ^liticil  wi«lom,  unce  we  h.«  been  rumiing  about  m  eewch  of  it 
We't^elorrTk  to  «iei«it  hi-tory  for  model,  of  OoTemm^t.  ^ 
«L„ined  the  di«e«nt  form,  of  thoee  Bepublic.  which  ^^  ^ 
fSSed  with  the  «ed.  of  their  own  di-olnti«i  now  ~  l^**'  «^- 
And  we  have  viewed  Modem  SUtea  aU  ro-.  nd  B  trope,  but  find  none  of 
their  Conrtitution.  niitable  to  our  circnmrtanoe.. 

In  thi.  Btoation  of  thi.  A«embly,  groping  a.  it  were  in  the  to* 
to  find  political  truth,  and  ««roe  able  to  d»Ungu«h  it  when  pij^ 
Zf^  toM.  how  haa  it  happened,  Sir,  that  we  have  not  hitherto  once 
S:S.rorhu«W^PPlySS^  Father  erf  liljt.  to  Ulumiijte^r 
^d?»tanding.f    In  the  beginning  o^^^'^^J;'^'^^^^ 
when  we  were  .enrible  of  danger  we  had  dafly  prayer  in  tj»  "«» 
S^  divine  prote«tion.-Our  prayer^  Sir.  were  heard.  *  th^^«" 
.Lioudy  answered.    AU  of  u.  who  were  engaged  m  the  rtrug^e 
S^  Si^SSved  fr^iuent  inatanee.  of  a  -P*'-^^';  P~- 
Snee  in  our  favor.    To  that  kind  providence  we  ««  ^J^^PPJ 
^rtunity  of  con«dting  in  p«««  on  the  ^^;;^J^^^,Z 
ZZe  national  feUdty.    And  have  wc  now  *>'««^.^**^Zj 
Vri«nA^  or  do  we  imagine  that  we  no  longer  need  hia  a«wtancel 

aamred    Sir.  in  the  M«red  writings  tnat      ewsepi.  "»"  *~ 
STSLtW  labour  in  vain  that  build  if    I.^/^ST™^ 
Imd  I  ri«.  b<^«ve  that  without  hia  concurring  aid  ^J jj^  "^ 


Fnnklin"  are  inierted. 


182      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

GoTcrnmcnti  by  Human  wiadom  »nd  leave  it  to  chance,  war  and 
oonquest. 

I  therefore  beg  leave  to  move— that  henceforth  prayen  imploring 
the  aMiatance  o£  Heaven,  and  iU  bleMing*  on  our  deliberationa,  b« 
held  in  thia  AMembly  every  morning  before  we  proceed  to  btuineaa, 
and  that  ono  or  more  of  tha  Clergy  of  thia  City  be  requ«t«l  to 
officiate  in  that  Service — 

M'.  Shasman  aeconded  the  motion. 

Mt  Hamilton  ft  eeveral  othert  expreaied  their  apprehenaiona  that 
however  proper  luch  a  re«)lution  might  have  been  at  the  beginning 
of  the  convention,  it  might  at  thia  late  day,  l.»  bring  on  it  aome  dia- 
agreeable  animadveraiona.  &  2.'  lead  the  public  to  believe  that  the 
embarrawmenta  and  diuenaiona  within  the  Convention,  had  raggeated 
thia  measure.  It  waa  anawer^d  by  Dod  P.  M'.  Shbbmak  &  otheia, 
that  the  past  omission  of  a  duty  could  not  justify  a  further  omia- 
aion— that  the  rejection  of  such  a  propoaition  wiuld  expoae  the  Con- 
vention to  more  unpleasant  animadveraiona  than  the  adoption  of  it: 
and  that  the  alarm  out  of  doora  that  mi^t  be  excited  for  the  atata 
of  things  within,  would  at  least  be  aa  likely  to  do  good  as  ill. 

M!  WiLUAMSON,  obeerved  that  the  true  cause  of  the  omiauoa 
could  not  be  mistaken.    The  Convention  had  no  funda. 

M:  Randolph  proposed  in  order  to  give  e  favorable  aapect  to 
yr  measure,  tLat  a  sermon  be  preached  at  the  request  of  the  convention 
on»  4'"  of  July,  the  aaniversary  of  Independence;  &  thenceforwMd 
prayers  be  used*  in  y?  Convention  every  morning.  Di  Pbank?  2T 
this  motion  After  several  unsuccessful  attempts  for  sUently  post- 
poning  the »  matter  by  adjourn*  the  adjournment  waa  at  length  car- 
ried,  without  any  vote  on  the  motion. 


FioDAT  June  29?"  m  Convention 

Doct'  Johnson.  The  contrt-versy  must  be  endless  whilsl  Gentle- 
men differ  in  the  grounds  of  their  arguments;  Those  on  one  side  con- 
sidering the  States  as  districts  of  people  composing  one  PoMical 
Society;  those  on  the  other  considering  them  as  so  many  political 

•  The  aeure  "  1  "  i»  c»r«ti8ed  to  "  in  the  flrrt  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  fliure  "  2  "  U    .mnied  to  "  in  the  second  pU.e      lu  the  tranBcript. 

•  The  word  "  the "  ig  here  inserted  in  the  transcript.  j  *   «„,  n^ 
•^e  Words  "4c  to  be  read"  are  substituted  m  the  transcript  for     be 


used 


•  The  word  "  this"  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  the." 


SESSION  OP  PWDAT,  JUNE  29,  1787 


Its 


MirfatiM.  Tb«  f  act  to  th»t  tl»  BUU»  do  exiit  m  poUtktl  SocirtiM, 
'^7^.  i.  to  b.  fom^d  for  th«n  In  th«r  pditicid  a^^  - 
weU  M  for  *  indiridiaU  compo«ng  tham.  Doe.  It  ~t  -""Jj 
7Xw  thftt  if  the  SUtee  u  each  .re  to  exirt  thty  mart  be  •rmed 

who  appem  to  have  looked  to  the  bottom  ol  thi.  matter.    Betide. 
iVASS^tic  .nd  other  interert..  -'»'«^\-«^»'»^^' ^•:^ 
cf  defending  them-^lve..  the  8tat«i  »uve ;[''"' "^"'^"St.r- 
m  .q«lly  entlUed  to  Uke.  mean..    On  the  whole  he  tho^jht^*  " 
to  K«ie  ««P«<^  the  SUte.  are  to  be  coniidered  in  their  poUtie^ 
SpX.^^  other.  »  dirtrict.  of  individoal  "t««^««  ^^P 
SSr2^br««d  on  different  «de..  Inrtead  of  being  oppoj^  ^  e«h 
Sber.  ought  to  be  combined;  that  in  on,  br«»ch  the  peopU.  ought  to 
be  reprewnted;  in  the  orter  the  S<<i»«.       .  ,     ^  ^  .        „^  ,^|,»  . 
M'  OHoaci.    The  Stote.  a.  now  confederated  hay.  no  doubt  a 
right  to  refu*,  to  be  con«,Udated.  or  to  '-.'°™«"^  "^-^^  "?; 
SStem.    But  ne  wi-hed  the  «n.U  Stote.  which  .eemed  niort  rea^ 
STbject.  to  conaider  wUcb  are  to  give  up  mojrt.  they  <>' »^^"f^; 
oner    He  .^nceived  thU  a  rupture  of  the  Umon  w4  b^  ^J* 
Xppy  for  all.  but  «ir*ly  the  ^^'^l  ^tat^^ould  be  1^  unaW. 
totake  care  of  themMlve..  and  to  make  connection,  with  one  another. 
Cw*2  tterrfore  were  mort  intererted  in  ertablirimig  ««ne  genend 
JSJcTloritoining  order.     If  among  ^^^^,^^^^ 
%y  Of  weak,  and  partly  ^  -roj^.^e  ^'^-^jtlt  IZ 
:::;L"*ti::iu^sr""^t -rSe^^ie'Stian  of  Delaware 
7iS?tJerrhS.  he  found  murt  be  .poLen  out.  ft  it  m  ght  a.  weU  be 
in^*!  fl^  wTart)  what  w^  be  the  «tuation  of  Delaware  m  ca« 
^  :«?^t"n^thr8tote.t    would  .he  not  lie*  at  the  mercy  of 
Pe^jSaT  would  not  her  true  interert  lie  in  ^emg  con^h^ate^ 
«4*t.  w  imd  oMht  .he  not  now  to  wiA  for  mich  a  union  with  1:^ 
Tder  one  W  «  Xut  it  out  of  the  power  of  Pent  ^  oppr«. 
Zrl    N^thtag  can  be  more  ideal  t^  the  ^"^^^^^f^^ 
the  State,    from  their  being  formed  into  one  nation.     Man.  wa. 
o^ginS^thiTeolonie..  viz  old  Ma«-  Plymouth-*  .tl-  P~v.nce 
o?^ayne      The«  apprehenrion.  exUted  then.     An  «~fP«"tion 
Ik  X«-  ali  ^io.  were  «ife  &  «tirfed;  and  every  d»t.nction  ui 
Ti  foSmn.    The  case  wa.  «mil.'  with  Connecticut  &  Newhaven 
SI  So?  union  wa.  reciprocal;  the  con«K,uence  of  it  equally 
^utS  and  satisfactory.    In  like  manner  N.  Jersey  has  been  made 


184      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

one  society  oat  of  two  parts.  Should  a  separation  of  the  StatM 
take  place,  the  fate  of  N.  Jersey  w*  be  worst  of  aU.  She  has  no 
foreiim  commerce  &  can  have  but  litUe.  K  1  N.  York  will  continue 
to  levy  taxes  on  her  consumption.  If  she  consults  her  interest  she 
V!  beg  of  all  things  to  be  annihilated.  The  appreheuaions  of  the 
unall  States  ought  to  be  appeased  by  another  reflection.  Mass*-.  wiU 
be  divided.  The  province  of  Maine  is  already  considered  as  ap- 
proaching the  term  of  its  annexation  to  it;  and  P»  wiU  probably  not 
increase,  considering  the  present  state  of  her  population,  &  other 
events  that  may  happen.  On  the  whole  he  considered  a  Umon  of 
the  States  as  necessary  to  their  happiness,  &  a  firm  Gen.  Qov^  as 
necessary  to  their  Union.  He  sW  consider  it  as »  his  duty  if  his  col- 
leagues viewed  the  matter  in  the  same  light  he  did  to  sUy  here  as 
long  as  any  other  State  would  remain  with  them,  in  order  to  agree 
on  some  plan  that  could  with  propriety  ' «  recommended  to  the  people. 
m  Elsworth,  did  not  despair.  He  still  trusted  that  some  good 
plan  of  Gov.*  w*.  be  divised  &  adopted, 

M'  Reat  He  3h?  have  no  objection  to  the  Bystem  if  it  were  truly 
national,  but  it  has  too  much  of  a  federal  mixture  in  it.  The  little 
States  hr  thought  had  not  much  to  fear.  He  suspected  tiiat  the  large 
States  feit  their  want  of  energy,  &  wished  for  a  GenJ  Qov^  to  supply 
the  defeci  Mass*?  was  evidentiy  labouring  under  her  weakness  and 
he  believed  Delaware  W!  not  be  in  much  danger  if  in  her  neighbour- 
hood.  Delaware  had  enjoyed  tranquiUty  &  he  flattered  himseU  w^ 
continue  to  do  so.  He  was  not  however  so  selflsh  as  not  to  wish  for 
a  good  Gen!  Gov^  In  order  to  obtain  one  the  whole  States  must  be 
incorporated.  If  the  States  remain,  tiie  representatives  of  the  large 
ones  will  stick  together,  and  carry  every  tiling  before  tiiem.  The 
Executive  also  will  be  chosen  under  the  influence  of  tiiis  partiality, 
and  wUl  betray  it  in  his  administration.  These  jealousies  are  in- 
separable  from  the  scheme  of  leaving  the  States  in  existence.  They 
must  be  done  away.  The  ungranted  lands  also  which  have  been 
assumed  by  particular  States  must  also*  be  given  up.  He  repeated 
his  approbation  of  the  plan  of  W  Hamilton,  &  wished  it  to  be  sub- 
Btituted  in  place  of '  that  on  the  table.  .     :,      ,         , 

Ml  Madison  agreed  with  Doci  Johnson,  tiiat  the  mixed  nature  of 
tiie  Govt  ought  to  be  kept  in  vie*  ;  but  thought  too  much  stress  wag 
laid  on  the  rank  of  the  States  as  political  societies.  There  was  a 
gradation,  he  observed  from  the  smallest  corporation,  with  tiie  most 


•  The  word  "  as  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•The  word  "also"  is  stricken  out  in  the  transcript. 

•The  word  "for"  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "in  place  of. 


SESSION  OP  PBIDAT,  JUNE  29,  1787 


1» 


limited  powers,  to  the  largert  empire  with  the  most  perfect  w- 
ereignty.  He  pointed  out  the  limitation*  on  the  aovereignty  of  the 
SUtes,  w  now  confederated  their  laws  in  reUtion  to  the  paramount 
law  of  the  Confederacy  were  analogous  to  that  of  bye  laws  to  the 
supreme  law  within  a  State.  Under  the  proposed  Gov.'  the  powers 
of  the  States  wiU  be  much  farther  reduced.  According  to  the  views 
of  every  member,  the  Gen?  Gov!  wiU  have  powers  far  beyond  those 
exercised  by  the  British  Parliament,  when  the  States  were  part  of 
the  British  Empire.  It  will  in  particular  have  the  power,  without 
the  consent  of  the  State  Legislatures,  to  levy  money  directly  on  the 
people  themselves;  and  therefore  not  to  divest  such  unequal  portions 
of  the  people  as  composed  the  several  States,  of  an  egiwJ  voice,  would 
subject  the  system  to  the  reproaches  &  evils  which  have  resulted  from 
the  vicious  representation  in  G.  B. 

He  entreated  the  gentlemen  representing  the  smaU  States  to 
renounce  a  principle  w?"  was  confessedly  unjust,  which  c-.  never  be 
admitted,  &'  if  admitted  must  infuse  mortality  into  a  Constitution 
which  we  wished  to  last  forever.  He  prayed  them  to  ponder  well 
the  consequences  of  suffering  the  Confederacy  to  go  to  pieces.  U 
had  been  i?  that  the  want  of  energy  in  the  large  states  w»  be  a  secun^ 

to  the  small.    It  was  forgotten  that  this  want  of  energy  proceeded 
from  the  supposed  security  of  the  States  ag?  aU  external  danger. 
Let  each  state  depend  on  itself  for  its  security,  &  .!«*  •PP^'^'fT" 
arise  arise  of  danger,  from  distant  powers  or  from  neij^bounng  States, 
&  the  languishing  condition  of  all  the  States,  large  " Jfe"  «  «^' 
w*.  soon  be  transformed  into  vigorous  &  high  toned  Gov«!    H»  (jreat 
fear  was  that  their  Gov*",  w^  then  have  too  much  energy,  that  theM 
might  not  only  be  formidable  in  the  large  to  the  small  States,  but 
fatal  to  the  internal  liberty  of  aU.    Tbo  same  causes  which  have 
rendered  the  old  world  the  Theatre  of  incessant  wars,  &  have  ban- 
ished liberty  from  the  face  of  it,  w-  soon  produce  the  same  effecta 
here.    The  weakness  &  jealousy  of  the  small  States  w-  quickly  in- 
troduce some  regular  miUtary  force  ag^  sudden  danger  from  their 
powerful  neighbours.    The  example  w-  be  foUowed  by  others,  and 
W"  soon  become  universal.   In  time  of  actual  war,  great  discretionary 
powers  are  constanUy  given  to  the  Executive  Magirtrate.    Constant 
apprehension  of  war,  has  the  same  tendency  to  render  the  head  too 
large  for  the  body.    A  standing  mUitery  force,  with  sn  overgrown 


■  The  worf  "from"  i»  »nb«tituted  in  the  transcript  for  "on." 

•The  word  "which"  is  here  inserted  >"  tl'«/™°'«'"P*;„.  „..,.,.  .,  -ritten 

•  The  word  "  these  "  is  stricken  out  in  the  transcript  and     this     is  written 

above  it. 


186      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Executive  will  not  long  be  safe  companions  to  li^erty.  The  means  of 
defence  ag?  foreign  danger,  have  been  always  the  instruments  of 
tyranny  at  home.  Among  the  Romans  it  was  a  standing  manm  to 
Site  a  war,  whenever  a  revolt  was  apprehended.  Throughout  all 
Europe,  the  armies  kept  up  under  the  pretext  of  defending,  have 
enslaved  the  people.  It  is  perhaps  questionable,  whether  the  best 
concerted  system  of  absolute  power  in  Europe  <fi  mamtam  itself ,  m 
a  situation,  where  no  alarms  of  external  danger  c1  tame  the  people 
to  the  domestic  yoke.  The  insular  situation  of  G.  Britain  was  the 
principal  cause  of  her  being  an  exception  to  the  generid  fate  ol 
Europe  It  has  rendered  less  defence  necessary,  and  admitted  a 
kind  of  defence  w*  c^  not  be  used  for  the  purpose  of  oppression.— 
These  consequences  he  conceived  ought  to  be  apprehended  whether 
the  States  should  run  into  a  total  separation  from  each  other  or  sh. 
enter  into  partial  confederacies.  Either  event  V?  be  truly  deplorable ; 
&  those  who  might  be  accessary  to  either,  could  never  be  forgiven  by 
their  Country,  nor  by  themselves.  ,.x-    i  o^ 

•MI  Hamilton  observed  that  individuals  formmg  political  So- 
cieties modify  their  rights  differently,  with  regard  to  suffrage.    Ex- 
amples  of  it  are  found  in  all  the  States.     In  aU  of  them  some 
individuals  are  deprived  of  the  right  altogether,  not  having  the 
requisite  qualification  of  property.    In  some  of  the  States  the  right 
of  suffrage  is  allowed  in  some  cases  and  refused  in  others.    To  vote 
for  a  member  in  one  branch,  a  certain  quantum  of  property,  to  vote 
for  a  member  in  another  branch  of  the  Legislature,  a  higher  quan- 
turn  of  property  is  required.   In  like  manner  States  may  modify  their 
riKht  of  suffrage  differently,  the  larger  exercising  a  larger    the 
Bmaller  a  smaller  share  of  it.    But  as  States  are  a  coUection  of  m- 
dividual  men  which  ought  we  to  respect  most,  the  rights  of  the 
people  composing  them,  or  of  the  artificial  beings  resulting  from 
L  composition.    Nothing  could  be  more  preposterous  or  «ibs^ 
than  to  sacrifice  the  former  to  the  latter.    It  has  been  si  that  if  the 
smaller  States  renounce  their  equality,  they  renounce  at  the  same 
time  their  liberty.    The  truth  is  it  is  a  contest  for  power   not  for 
liberty.    Will  the  men  composing  the  small  States  be  [ess  free  than 
hosVcomposing  the  larger.    The  State  of  Delaware  having  40^000 
souls  will  lose »  power,  if  she  has  Mo  only  of  the  votes  ^mowed  to  P. 
having  400,000:  but  will  the  people  of  Del:  he  less  free,  if  each  citizen 

•  From  thU  date  he  wa§  absent  till  the       of 

•  The  date.  "  13th  of  August."  is  nipplied  in  the  transcript. 
»T';u  transcript  does  not  italicize  the  word     low. 


SESSION  OF  PETOAY,  JUNE  29,  1787 


187 


V.M  ui  eaual  vote  with  each  cititen  of  K  He  admitted  that  common 
JSdTnc^^t^the  same  State  woald  produce  a  certain  de^  of 
S^Jlnrand  that  this  principle  might  have  a  cert«n  mfluence 
T^)^ck^  He  thought  however  that  thi.  might  by  «>me  pre- 
Lrn.  be  in  a  great  measure  excluded:  and  that  no  material  in- 
Z^Zn^  l^i^t  from  it.  a.  there  could  not  be  »y  ground 
Sr  Combination  among  the  States  who«  influence  was  niort  dreaded. 
The  only  considerable  distinction  of  interests,  lay  between  the  c««7. 
ig  &  noncarrying  States,  which  divide  •  inrtead  of  umtmg  the  la^- 
^  States.  No  considerable  inconvenience  had  been  found  from  the 
t^Tot  Z  State  of  N.  York  into  different  district,  of  different 

"^me  of  the  consequences  of  a  dissolution  of  the  Union,  and  Ae 
estaSment  of  partial  confederaciai,  had  been  been  Pomt^-f-^! 
t^d  add  another  of  a  most  serious  nature.    Alliances  wiU  unme- 
Set  be  f^ed  with  different  rival  &  hostile  natiom.  of  Europe, 
who  WiU  foment  disturbances  among  ourselves,  and  make  us  part^ 
Tsll  their  own  quarrels.    Foreign  Nations  ^avmg  Ainenc«i  dmm^ 
ions »  are  &  must  be  jealous  of  us.    Their  representatives  betray  the 
ZoeT^ieVfor  ««  fate,  &  for  the  result  of  this  meeting,  w^ 
^t^r^  essential  influence  on  it.-It  had  been  said  tttat  res^ 
Sy  in  the  eyes  of  foreign  Natiomi  was  not  the  object  at  whi^ 
we  Sned;  that  the  proper  object  of  republican  Government  wa. 
;iS  t«nquiUty  &  happine...    This  w„  an  i^e*!  f  ^-  ^^/^ 
Onvemmi  could  give  us  tranquility  &  happiness  at  home,  whicn 
Sr^^^osTtuScient  stabUity  and  strengA  to  make  -^-^^^ 
S.road     TwTwas  the  critical  moment  for  formmg  such  a  Qoveni. 
tnf  We  luld  run  every  risk  in  trusting  to  ^^  r"^^^"^. 
T!  yet  we  retain  the  habit-  of  union.    We  are  weak  &  sensible  of 
^r  weaS^^enceforward  the  motives  will  become  ^ebler,  ^d 
?he  TffiSties  greater.    It  is  a  miracle  tiiat  we  were*  now  he^ 
exerSiTour  ^quil  &  free  deliberations  on  the  subject.    It  would 
S  mSrto  tnl  to  future  miracles.    A  thousand  causes  must 

obstruct  a  reproduction  of  them.  ,      ^v    /^  ^t^^^^ 

m  Pierce  considered  the  equality  of  votes  under  tiie  Confeder^ 
tion  M  tiie  great  source  of  the  public  difficulties.  The  members  of 
Co^fi*  were  fdTocates  for  local  advantages.  State  distinctions  must 
£  sSr^ced  as  far  as  the  general  good  required,  but  witiiout  destroy 


> Till,  word  " on "  U  rohrtltiited  in  tie  trwwcript  for  "J""  „ 

•  Tht  W  "  divides  "  i»  «ubBtituted  in  the  tMnMnpt  for  "  divide. 

?Se  Tra^Bcript  «^  the  word  "dominion."  I»  t^«  •*°g»^'- ,. 
. iie  wo °d  "Me "  i8  Bubrtituted  in  the  transcript  for     were. 


188      DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEEAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 
ing  the  State..    Tho'  £rom  a  smaU  State  he  felt  hiin«lf  a  Citixen  of 

*'%r  G^RH.,  urged  that  we  never  wer.  -^^^^^^'J^^'^^'JX:^. 
such  now,  &  never  could  be  even  on  the  principles  of  *!»«  Confedera- 
«1     The  States  &  the  advocates  for  them  were  intoxicated  with  the 
T"  /♦wVlJetontj/     He  was  a  member  of  Congress  at  the  tune 
'^^^IZTJL  fomed.     The  injustice  of  allowing  -ch 
Stite  an  «iui^  vote  was  long  insisted  on.    He  voted  for  it,  but  it 
wta^«h?  Judgment,  and  under  the  pressure  of  public  danger,  and 
ZStm^cy  of  the  lesser  States.     The  present  confederation  he 
Sn.  de«d  i  di»olving.    The  fate  of  the  Union  wiU  »- Jec^f^  by 
the  Convention.    If  they  do  not  agree  on  «'"'«thing^^.  ^^^^i*^ 
WiU  probably  be  appointed  to  Cong!    If  they  do  Cong?  will  P«>W 
jTkepTup  till  the  new  System  should  be  adopted     He  lamented 
Sat  iSste.^  of  coming  here  like  a  band  of  brothers,  belonging  to  the 
sS^e  S.  we  ^ed  to  have  brought  with  us  the  .pint  of  political 

"Ttl^ABTm.  remarked  that  the  language  of  the  Stat«i  being 
sJreit  T^pendent,  was  once  familiar  &  understood,  though  it 
s^S  now  range  &  obscure.    He  read  those  passage,  in  the 

S^  S  Co_r.   eratfon,  which  ^^^^be  *hem  t^th*t  t«^''.f;ot ,, 
On  the  question  as  moved  by  WPLansmg.    Shall  the  word     not 

be  struck  out.  xr  V  «v     N  J  ay     PI  no.    Del.  ay.    M* 

Mass'!  no.    Corf  ay     N.  Y.  ay.    N.  J-  ay-    '^  ""• 

of  suffrage  in  tho  1?  branch  ought  not  to  be  according  to  that 

the  clause,  &  take  up— y!  8-Resol: 

OnMueBtion.  ^^^    ^a 

Mas.no.    Con?  ay.    N.  Y.  ay.    N. -i           '^■^y- 
V»  ay    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.   Geo,  ay.^ 

Jersey.  Delaware,  "<>r^ '^^'^yJ'^jX..  Connecticut,  New  York.  New  Jer.ey. 
Pe„n;S^.^t,Ta^v^^.Vn.r«rniano^^^  South   C.roUn..   Oeorg.. 

aye— 9;  MaBsachusetts,  Delaware,  no— 2. 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  JUNE  29,  1787 


189 


HP  EL8KW0BTH  moved  that  the  rule  of  suffrage  in  the  2-.  blanch 

tional  representation  m  the  first  ''""^'^^  J/l  „^t  t^e  small, 

national  principle  &  would  "^^J^^^^^X  fSeTal  Principle  and 
An  equality  of  voices  was  «°';^°™!^;  °Ji\^^^^^^^^  He  trusted 
was  necessary  to  secure  the  SmaU  S***^^5mild  take  place  He  did 
that  on  this  middle  jround  a  ^^^Td  f  no  tmptmise  should 
not  see  that  it  could  on  "^f/*;*"^-  ^J^  .^  ^^^  ^^,  v,orse  than  in 
take  place,  our  °»««*>°8  vrould  n<^  onlj^^  m  v^^^^^  ^^^^^  ^^^ 

vain.  To  the  Eastward  he  was  sure ^'^.^^J  J  ^  utjcal 
would  listen  to  a  P-P<«iJ-^*°^«ttf br^chT  T^"  ^would 
Societies,  from  an  equal  yoice  m  t«*^'^Jf'*-  '^^  I  rfght.  An 
^  every  -nsequence  ^th^r  than^art  w.h  s^^dear  a^ng^  ^^ 

attempt  to  dep^e  them  of  xt,  w^  ^^j  somewhere 

America  in  two  and  «^*'^^"^P^jreonceived  would  n^twith. 
about  this  part  of  it  J^eJJ'^^  °  .^^^^,,  that  would  maintain 
standing  ^^^^     yu^rj^^'ll  Sen  admitted  [by  M^  Madison] 

their  ««P«"^"*y-  .f^^J^J  "  Sty  in  the  Dutch  Confederacy,  a 
had,  notwithstanding  a  like  equauiy  m  j 

pre;ailing  influence  in  the  ^-"^^  ^^^^,^  ^^'^y^  it  to 
defence  was  essential  to  the  small  ^^S^^^^^  atoit  that  there 
the  smallest  insect  of  the  creation.    He  ^^d  never  aomii  ^ 

las  no  danger  o^^^^^^^^ZZZ^JlfTJ^^  to 
like  indmdua^j  find  ou    a.d  avail  ^^^^  ^  ^^^^^  ^ 

be  gained  by  it.    "  ^^    ""^       immediate^  common  interest.    A 
were  contiguous  and  had  a  more  ii^a               ^^^^ed  more  difficult 
defensive  <^-^^^'^°^^''''^fjTZnZZoiter  consideration 
'J  ''"t  ^iSr'Sf  exis^ilg  c^Xation  was  founded  on  the 
"*  T.V  nrthfstat^inX  aSicle  of  suffrage:  was  it  me«it  to  pay 
equality  of  the  States  in  wc  «                                 ^         Executive, 
no  regard  to  this  antecedent  ^^f^^^^^^^ll^j^^  ^^t  too  much 
a  Judiciary  &  Legislative  P;>^«' ^J^'jf^ 'ne  '^„  not  in  general 
be  attempted;  by  which  ^^^^^  Jj  tirgood  we'^ould, 
X'SruoSLgVl^^e  othef  half  ^ay  be  added,  when 
the  necessity  shall  be  more  fully  expenenced^ 


T:^  word  "  and  "  i.  here  Inwrted  in  the  tranwript. 


190      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

MP  Rau)w.n  could  have  wished  that  the  powers  of  the  General 
r  t„*„^     Mp  «honld  vote  aaaiiiBt  the  motion  of  M'.  lilsewonn, 


States.  .  -^ 


Saturday  June  30.  1787.^    m  Convention 

M'  Brearlt  moved  that  the  Presidi  write  to  the  Executive  o£  N. 

M.  BREARLY  m  business   depending   before   the 

Hamshire,   informing  it  t^^t  ine  immediate  attend- 

Convention  was  of  such  a Jt^re  as  to  «qmre         ^_^  ^^^.^^  ^^  ^^ 

red^^:  hTs:itrofr  suU  fnd  the  di.^^. «,  opi. 

Tons  ealledjor  an  the  as..^^        71^^:^ 'to^^S 
M-ell  understood  «>«*  ^'^f /^^^^^i^f  „f  proportional  representation. 
t^T^'J^^rl:.  Sir S^tive  y She  must  be  adverse  tol . 
M'  Patterson  seconded  the  motion 

^^iron7=rr;r.tiL'^rpte:^-  -- 

c-!  have  no  effect.  „h„fher  it  would  be  consistent  with 

M'.  Wn^oN  wished  to  know  whether  it  woum  ^ 

the  rule  or  reason  of  secresy,  to  communicate  to  N.  Hamshire 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  30,  1787 


191 


♦»,•  hiiBiness  WW  of  such  a  nature  as  the  motiun  described.    It  yfi 

preJa^aT"!..    Besides  he  doubted  the  propriety  of  sol.Umg 

Zy  Station  the  subiect;  ^ J^f,!^  ^^i  1^7:; 

N.  C.  no. 


ihe^  motion  of  M^  Brearly  Mas?  no.    Con^  no.    N.  Y.  ay 


r7  not  on  y?  floor.    Del.  not  on  floor.    M^  div-    V»  no. 
S  C.  no.    Geo.  not  on  floor.'  . 

The  motion  of  Mr  Elseworth'  resumed  for  aUovnng  each  State  an 

^trw:i:;/dS  noTeteet  such  a  motion  after  the  estabUs^«rt 
of  y?  contrary  principle  in  the  1?  branch;  and  considering  the  re.u 
irw'ich  Zm  oppose  it.  even  if  an  equal  vote  ^ad  been  allowed 
in  the  1?  branch.    The  Gentleman  from  Connecticut  [M^  Elseworth] 
iad  piinounced  that  if  the  motion  shoiUd  not  be  -ceded    oof^ 
t>,«  States  North  of  Pen*  one  only  would  agree  to  any  Gen.  Govern- 
men?   He  fnt^ltd  more  favorable  hopes  of  Connl  and  of  the  other 
Sorthem  States.    He  hoped  the  alarms  exceeded  their  cause,  and 
fhaf  thTy  woSS  not  abandon  a  Country  to  which  they  were  bound 
ly  BO  manT^rong  and  endearing  ties.    But  should  the  dep^«^ 
event  happen,  it  would  neither  stagger  his  sentunents  nor  his  duty. 
Til  Jnon^  of  the  people  of  America  refuse  *<>  coalesce  wi^h^e 
maiority  on  just  and  proper  principles,  if  a  separaUon  must  take 

day  ag?  the  just  principle  of  representation,  were  as  22  to  90  of  ^e 
people  of  AJaerica.     Taking  the  opinions  to  be  tbe  «ame  on  thij 
point,  and  he  was  sure  if  there  was  any  room  for  e^f  •^f°^ 
not  be  on  the  side  of  the  majority,  the  question  wiU  be  shall  less 
Sban  4  of  the  U.  States  withdraw  themselves  from  the  Union ;  or  sha^^ 
mo^e  th«i  4.  renounce  the  inherent,  indisputable,  and  unabenable 
rights  ormri  in  favor  of  the  artificial  systems  of  State.    If  issue 
must  b^  joined,  it  was  on  this  point  he  would  chuse  to  jom  it.    The 
Tt  emrfrom  Connecticut  in  supposing  that  the  PreP-denan  ^  * 
LcuredTo  the  majority  in  the  1^  branch  had  removed  the  objec- 
S  to  an  equality  of  votes  in  the  2-  J^*  c'^al  eqS;  wS 
+l,P  minoritv  narrowed  the  case  extremely.    Such  an  equality  wm 
nabTeTmity  to  controul  in  all  c^s  whatever,  the  sen  iments 
and  interests  of  the  majority.    Seven  States  will  controul  six.  Seven 


■The  word  "the"  I.  omitted  in  *f  t"""^'!?*-  ^.^  j„^,  aye-2;  MasM- 
.  In  the  transcript  the  vote  r»d.:  "  N^J^^^Ii^XcaS,  n«>-6;  Mary- 

?Lrm;idr?eSiiit"&uw^^^  g"S°%^  «".  r ''~'" 

script. 


192      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

States,  according  to  the  ertimates  that  had  been  uaed.  composed  'Ho. 
of  the  whole  people.     It  would  be  in  the  power  then  of  le«  than 
H  to  overrule  %  whenever  a  question  should  happen  to  divide  the 
States  in  that  manner.    Can  we  forget  for  whom  we  are  forming 
a  Government!    Is  it  for  men.  or  for  the  imaginary  bemgs  caUed 
Stat, St  WUl  our  honest  Constituents  be  satisfied  with  metaphysica 
distinctions  t    Will  they,  ought  they  to  be  satisfied  with  being  told 
that  the  one  third  compose  the  greater  number  of  Statest    TJe  nue 
of  suffrage  ought  on  .very  principle  to  be  the  same  in  the  2?  as  in 
the  1"*  branch.    If  the  Government  be  not  laid  on  this  foundation, 
it  can  be  neither  solid  nor  lasting.     Any  other  principle  wUl  be 
local,  confined  &  temporary.    This  will  expand  with  the  expansion, 
and  grow  with  the  growth  of  the  U.  State8.-Much  has  been  said  of  an 
imaginary  combination  of  three  States.     Sometimes  a  danger  of 
monarchy,  sometimes  of  aristocracy,  has  been  charged  on  it     IJo 
explanation  however  of  the  danger  has  been  vouchsafed.    It  would 
be  easy  to  prove  both  from  reason  &  history  that  rivalships  would  be 
more  probable  than  coalitions;  and  that  there  are  no  comcidmg  in- 
terests that  could  produce  the  latter.    No  answer  has  ye*  Jf  »  f '«> 
to  the  observations  of  [Mr  Madison]  on  this  subject.    Should  the 
Executive  Magistrate  be  taken  from  one  of  the  large  States  would 
not  the  other  two  be  thereby  thrown  into  the  scale  with  the  other 
States!    Whence  then  the  danger  of  monarchy!    Are  the  people  of 
the  three  large  States  more  aristocratic  than  those  of  the  small  ones! 
Whence  then  the  danger  of  aristocracy  from  their  influence!    It  is 
all  a  mere  illusion  of  names.    We  talk  of  States,  till  we  forget  what 
they  are  composed  of.    Is  a  real  &  fair  majority,  the  natural  ho1>bed 
of  aristocracy!    It  is  a  part  of  the  definition  of  this  species  of  Gov? 
or  rather  of  tyranny,  that  the  smaller  number  governs  the  greater. 
It  is  true  that  a  majority  of  States  in  the  2-.  branch  can  not  car^  a 
law  ag^'  a  majority  of  the  people  in  the  If    But  this  removes  half 
only  of  the  objection.    Bad  Govern'-  are  of  two  sorts.    l.»  that  which 
does  too  little.    2.»  that  which  does  too  much :  that  which  fails  thro 
weakness;  and  that  which  destroys  thro'  oppression.    Under  which 
of  these  evils  do  the  U.  States  at  present  groan!    under  the  weakness 
and  inefficiency  of  its  Govern.'    To  remedy  this  weakness  we  have 
been  sent  to  this   Convention.     If  the  motion  should  be   agreed 
to,  we  shall  leave  the  U.  S.  fettered  precisely  as  heretofore;  with 
the  additional  mortification  of  seeing  the  good  purposes  of  y*.  fair 


•  The  flgUTM  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  fir»t "  and  "  secondly  "  in  the 
tranacript 


SESSION  OF  SATURDAY,  JUNE  30,  1787 


198 


nprewntion  of  the  people  in  the  V}  brmneh,  defeated  in^  2t 
Twenty  four  will  etill  controal  sixty  six.  He  lamented  that  anch  a 
diaagreement  ahoold  prevail  on  the  point  of  representation,  as  he 
did  not  foresee  that  it  woidd  happen  on  the  other  point  most  con- 
tested, the  boundary  between  the  Qtn\  &  the  local  authorities.  He 
thought  the  States  necessary  &  valaable  parts  of  a  good  system. 

M^  Elsewurth.  The  capital  objection  of  W  Wilson  "  that  the 
minority  will  rule  the  majority  "  is  not  true.  The  power  is  given  to 
the  few  to  save  them  from  being  destroyed  by  the  many.  If  an 
equality  of  votes  had  been  given  to  them  in  both  branches,  the 
objection  might  have  had  weight.  Is  it  a  novel  thing  that  the  few 
should  have  a  check  on  the  manyt  Is  it  not  the  case  in  the  British 
Constitution  the  wisdom  of  which  so  many  gentlemen  have  united  in 
applauding!  Have  not  the  House  of  Lords,  who  form  so  small  a 
proportion  of  the  nation  a  negative  on  the  laws,  as  a  necessary  de- 
fence  of  their  peculiar  rights  ag?  the  encroachmi*  of  the  Commons. 
No  instance  of  a  Confederacy  has  existed  in  which  an  equality  of 
voices  has  not  been  exercised  by  the  members  of  it.  We  are  running 
from  one  extreme  to  another.  We  are  razing  the  foundations  of  the 
building,  when  we  need  only  repair  the  roof.  No  salutary  measure 
has  been  lost  for  want  of  a  majority  of  the  States,  to  favor  it.  If 
security  be  all  that  the  great  States  wish  for  the  ll  branch  secures 
them.  The  danger  of  combinations  among  them  is  not  imaginary. 
Altho'  no  particular  abuses  could  be  foreseen  by  him,  the  possi- 
bility of  them  would  be  sufficient  to  alarm  him.  But  he  eould  easily 
conceive  cases  in  which  they  might  result  from  such  combinations. 
Suppose  that  in  pursuance  of  some  commercial  treaty  or  arrange- 
ment, three  or  four  free  ports  &  no  more  were  to  be  established 
would  not  combinations  be  formed  in  favor  of  Boston — Philad*  &  & 
some  port  in'  Chesapeakf  A  like  concert  might  be  formed  in  the 
appointment  of  the  great  officers.  He  appealed  again  to  the  obliga- 
tions of  the  federal  pact  which  was  still  in  force,  and  which  had  been 
entered  into  with  so  much  solemnity;  persuading  himself  that  some 
regard  would  still  be  paid  to  the  plighed  faith  under  which  each 
State  small  as  well  as  great,  held  an  equal  right  of  suffrage  in  the 
general  Councils.  His  remarks  were  not  the  result  of  partial  or 
local  views.  The  State  he  represented  [Connecticut]  held  a  middle 
rank. 

M^  Madison  did  justice  to  the  able  &  close  reasoning  of  Mr  E. 
but  must  obsen-e  that  it  did  not  always  accord  with  itself.     On 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  words  "  of  the  "  are  substituted  in  the  tntnacript  for  "  in." 


194      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

another  occuion,  the  Urge  Statei  were  dewribed  by  him  u  the 
Aristocratic   Statei,  ready  to  oppresa  the  small.     Now  the  small 
are  the  House  of  Lords  requiring  a  negative  to  defend  them  ag* 
the  more  numerous  commons.    M'.  E.  had  also  erred  in  saying  that 
no  instance  had  existed  in  which  confederated  SUtes  had  not  re- 
Uined  to  themselves  a  perfect  equality  of  suffrage.    Passing  over  the 
German  system  in  which  the  K.  of  Prussia  has  nine  voices,  he 
reminded  Ml  E.  of  the  Lycian  confederacy,  in  which  the  component 
members  had  votes  proportioned  to  their  importance,  and  which 
Montesquieu  recommends  as  the  fittest  model  for  that  form  of  Govern, 
ment.    Had  the  fact  been  as  stated  by  Mr  B.  it  would  have  been  of 
little  avaU  to  him,  or  rather  would  have  strengthened  the  arguments 
ag*.'  him;  the  History  &  fate  of  the  several  confederacies  modem  as 
well  as  Antient,  demonstrating  some  radical  vice  in  their  structure. 
In  reply  to  the  appeal  of  MT  E.  to  the  faith  plighted  in  the  existing 
federal  compact,  he  remarked  that  the  party  claiming  from  others  an 
adherence  to  a  common  engagement  ought  at  least  to  be  guiltless 
itself  of  a  violation.    Of  all  the  States  however  Connecticut  was  per- 
haps  least  able  to  urge  this  plea.    Besides  the  various  omissions  to 
perform  the  stipulated  acts  from  which  no  State  was  free,  the  Legis- 
lature of  that  State  had  by  a  pretty  recent  vote,  pontively,  refuted 
to  pass  a  law  for  complying  with  the  Requisitions  of  Cong}  and  had 
transmitted  a  copy  of  the  vote  to  Cong?    It  was  urged,  he  said,  con- 
tinually that  an  equality  of  votes  in  the  21  branch  was  not  only 
necessary  to  secure  the  small,  but  would  be  perfectly  safe  to  the 
large  ones  whose  majority  in  the  1!'  branch  was  an  effectual  bulwark. 
But  notwithstanding  Ibis  apparent  defence,  the  majority  of  States 
might  still  injure  the  majority  of »  people.    l.«  they  could  obstruct  the 
wishes  and  interests  of  the  majority.    2.'  they  could  extort  measures 
repugnant  to  the  wishes  &  interest  of  the  Majority.    3.'  they  could 
impose  measures  adverse  thereto;   as  the  21  branch  will  proWy 
exercise  some  great  powers,  in  which  the  1!'  will  not  participate.    He 
admitted  that  every  peculiar  interest  whether  in  any  class  of  citizens, 
or  aiiV  description  of  States,  ought  to  be  secured  as  far  as  possible. 
•Wherever  there  is  danger  of  attack  there  ought'  be  given  a  consti- 
tutional power  of  defence.    But  he  contended  that  the  States  were 
divided  into  different  interests  not  by  their  difference  of  size,  but  by 
other  circumstances;   the  most  material   of  which   resulted  partly 


i«  here  inwrted  in  the  trnnwript.    ,     ,    ^     ,       „  „  _ 
"  2  "  and  "  3  "  are  changed  to  "  In  the  first  place,       Sec- 


'  The  word  "  the 
»  The  flpures  "  1.' 
ondly "  and  "  Thirdly."  ,  .      ,     ^ 

•  The  word  "  to  "  is  here  Inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  SATUBDAT,  JUNE  30,  1787 


195 


from  climate,  bat  principally  from  the  effecte  of  their  haring  or 
not  having  slavet.  Thete  two  canaea  concurred  in  forming  the  great 
division  of  intereits  in  the  U.  States.  It  did  not  lie  between  the 
large  4  nnall  Statea:  It  lay  between  the  Northern  k  Sonthem,  and 
if  any  defensive  power  were  neeeiaary,  it  ought  to  be  mutually  given 
to  these  two  interests.  He  was  so  strongly  impressed  with  this  im- 
portant troth  that  he  had  been  casting  about  in  his  mind  for  some 
expedient  that  would  answer  the  purpose.  The  one  which  had 
occurred  was  that  instead  of  proportioning  the  votes  of  the  Statea  in 
both  branches,  to  their  respective  numbers  of  inhabitants  computing 
the  slaves  in  the  ratio  of  5  to  3,  they  should  be  represented  in  one 
branch  according  to  the  number  of  free  inhabitants  only  -,  and  in  the 
other  according  to  the  whole  n?  counting  the  slaves  as  if '  free.  By 
this  arrangement  the  Southern  Scale  would  have  the  advantage  in 
one  House,  and  the  Northern  in  the  other.  He  had  been  restrained 
from  proposing  this  expedient  by  two  considerations:  one  waa  his 
unwillingness  to  urge  any  diversity  of  interests  on  an  oceaaion  where 
it  is  but  too  apt  to  arise  of  itself— the  other  was,  the  inequality  of 
powers  that  must  be  vested  in  the  two  branches,  and  which  w^ 
destroy  the  equilibrium  of  interests. 

M^  EuEWOBTH  assured  the  House  that  whatever  might  be  thought 
of  the  Representatives  of  Connecticut  the  State  was  entirely  federal 
in  her  disposition.  He  appealed  to  her  great  exertions  during  the 
war,  in  supplying  both  men  ft  money.  The  muster  rolls  would  show 
she  had  more  troops  in  the  field  than  Virg*  If  she  had  been  De- 
linquent,  it  had  been  from  inability,  and  not  more  so  than  other 
States. 

W  Sherman.  Mr  Madison  has  *  animadverted  on  the  delinquency 
of  the  States,  when  his  object  required  him  to  prove  that  the  Con- 
stitution  of  Congt  was  faulty.  Cong!  is  not  to  blame  for  the  faults 
of  the  States.  Their  measures  have  been  right,  and  the  only  thing 
wanting  has  been,  a  further  power  in  Congf  to  render  them  eifcctual. 

M!  Davy  was  much  embamussed  and  wished  for  explanations. 
The  Report  of  the  Committee  allowing  the  Legislatures  to  choose  the 
Senate,  and  establishing  a  proportional  representation  in  it,  seemed 
to  be  impracticable.  There  will  according  to  this  rule  be  ninety  mem- 
bers in  the  outset,  and  the  number  will  increase  as  new  States  are 
added.  It  was  impossible  that  so  numerous  a  body  could  possess  the 
activity  and  other  qualities  required  in  it.  Were  he  to  vote  on  the 
comparative  merits  of  the  report  as  it  stood,  and  the  amendment,  he 


« The  word  "  it  "  is  omitted  in  the  tranacript. 
'  The  word  "  has  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


196      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

•hould  be  conrtrained  to  prefer  the  latter.    The  appointment  of  the 
Senate  by  eleetort  eho«n  by  the  people  for  that  purpoM  w««  he  con- 
eeived  liable  to  an  inauperable  difficulty.     The  larger  Countiea  or 
di«tricu  thrown  into  a  neneral  diatrict,  would  certainly  prevail  over 
the  amallcr  Counties  or  dirtrict*.  and  merit  in  the  latter  would  be 
excluded  altogether.     The  report  therefore  aeeraed  to  be  right  m 
referring  the  appointment  to  the  Legialaturea,  whoMi  agency  m  the 
general  Syatem  did  not  appear  to  him  objectionable  aa  it  did  to 
Bome  othera.    The  fact  was  that  the  local  prejudices  &  intereaU  which 
could  not  be  denied  to  exist,  would  find  their  way  int    the  national 
councils  whether  the  Representatives  should  be  chosen  by  the  Legis- 
latures or  by  the  people  themselves.    On  the  other  hand,  if  u  pro- 
portional reprewntation  was  attended  with  insuperable  difficulties, 
the  making  the  Senate  the  Representative  of  the  States,  looked  like 
bringing  us  back  to  Cong?  again,  and  shutting  out  all  the  advantages 
expected  from  it.   Under  this  view  of  the  subject  he  could  not  vote  for 
any  plan  for  the  Senate  yet  proposed.    He  thought  that  in  general 
there  were  extremes  on  both  sides.    We  were  partly  federal,  partly 
national  in  our  Union,  and  he  did  not  see  why  the  Gov',  might  not 
in  some  respects  operate  on  the  States,  in  others  on  the  people. 

M'  Wilson  admitted  the  quention  concerning  the  number  of 
Senators,  to  be  embarrassing.  If  the  smallest  States  be  allowed  one, 
and  the  others  in  proportion,  the  Senate  will  certainly  be  too  numer- 
ous He  looked  forward  to  the  time  when  the  smallest  States  will 
contain  100,000  souls  at  least.  Let  there  be  then  one  Senator  in 
each  for  every  100.000  souls  and  let  the  States  not  having  that  n.  of 
inhabitants  be  allowed  one.  He  was  willing  himself  to  submit  to  this 
temporary  concession  to  the  small  States;  and  threw  out  the  idea 
M  a  ground  of  compromise. 

Doci  Fhankun  The  diversity  of  opinions  turns  on  two  points. 
If  a  proportional  representation  takes  place,  the  small  States  contend 
that  their  liberties  will  be  in  danger.  If  an  equality  of  votes  «  to  be 
put  in  its  place,  the  large  States  say  their  money  will  be  in  danger. 
When  a  broad  table  is  to  be  made,  and  the  edges  of  planks  do  not 
fit,  the  artist  takes  a  little  from  both,  and  makes  a  good  joint.  In 
like  manner  here  both  sides  must  part  with  some  of  their  demands, 
in  order  that  they  may  join  in  some  accomodating  proposition.  He 
had  prepared  one  which  he  would  read,  that  it  mifht  lie  on  the 
table  for  consideration.    The  proposition  was  in  the  words  following 

"That  the  Legislatures  of  the  several  States  shall  clio«e  &  send 
an  equal  number  of  Delegates,  namely  who  are  to  compose 

the  2*.  branch  of  the  General  Legislatur- 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  30,  1787 


197 


Thit  in  all  cmm  or  queationa  wherein  the  Soyereifnty  of  I'  • 
diTidual  SUtea  may  be  affected,  or  whereby  their  authority  over  tha.r 
oln  Sti«S  may'be  diminiahed  or  the  authority  of  the  Oeaerj^ 
Government  within  the  aeveral  State,  augmented,  each  SUte  ahaU 

'''WiL"lh7?Rolntmcnt  of  all  Ciril  officer,  of  yt  GenI  OovJ  in 
the  election  of  wSSir,  the  21  branch  may  by  tha  Conrtitution  have 
part.  ea<h  State  .hall  have  eijual  "uffrage.  .ii„,.„„». 

*^  That  in  fixing  the  Salarie.  of  mxch  ofllceta,  and  in  aU  allowancea 
for  pubUc  Mrvioea.  and  generally  in  all  appropriation.  *  di.pos.t>on. 
of  money  to  be  drawn  out  of  the  General  7'^'«7'y=  •»?'".*'•  i*; 
for  .upplying  that  Treaaury,  the  Delegate,  of  the  several  State. 
ahlll  hJ°e  .uSrage  in  proportion  to  the  lum.  ,T»»^1^'' ■^^Pf'Sld 
State,  do  actually  contribute  to  tha  Treaaury."  Where  a  Ship  had 
many  ownm  thi  waa  the  rule  of  deciding  on  her  expedition.  He 
SUn  one  of  the  Mini.ter.  from  thi.  Country  to  Prance  during 
the  joint  war  and  w-  have  been  very  glad  if  allowed  a  vote  in  dia- 
tributing  the  money  to  carry  it  on. 

M!  Kino  obwrved  that  the  aimple  queation  waa  whether  ewsh 
State  ahould  have  an  equal  vote  in  the  21  branch;  that  it  murt  be 
apparent  to  them  gentlemen  who  liked       "sr  the  moUon  for  tlua 
equality,  nor  the  report  aa  it  stood,  that  th     eport  waa  aa  wiMeptible 
of  melioration  aa  the  motion;  that  a  reform  woiUd  be  nugatory  ft 
nominal  only  if  we  diould  make  another  Congrew  of  the  propowd 
Senate:  that  if  the  adherence  to  an  equality  of  vote,  waa  fixed  & 
unalterable,  there  could  not  be  lew  obatinacy  on  the  other  side,  & 
that  we  were  In  fact  cut  inaunder » already,  and  it  wa.  in  vain  to  abut 
our  eye.  against  it:  that  he  waa  however  filled  with  aatonishment 
that  if  we  were  convinced  that  every  man  in  America  waa  .ecured  m 
all  hia  right.,  we  ahould  be  ready  to  aacrifice  thi.  rob«tantial  good 
to  the  phantom  of  State  rovereignty:   that  hia  feeling,  were  more 
harrowed  &  hU  fear,  more  agitated  for  hia  Country  than  he  could 
exprew,  that  he  conceived  thia  to  be  the  last  opportunity  of  pro- 
viding for  it.  liberty  &  happincM:  that  he  could  not  therefore  but 
repeat  hi.  amazement  that  when  a  juat  Govemi  founded  on  a  fair 
representation  of  the  peopU  of  America  was  within  our  reach    we 
riiould  renounce  the  blcwing,  from  an  attachment  to  the  ideal  free- 
dom  &  imporUnce  of  State$:  that  should  thi.  wonderful  illusion  con- 
tinue  to  prevail,  hi.  mind  was  prepared  for  every  event,  rather  than 
to'  sit  down  under  a  Gov'  founded  in»  a  viciou.  principle  of  repre- 
wntation,  and  which  must  be  aa  short  lived  as  it  would  be  unjust.    He 


"The  word  "asunder"  ii  wbrtituted  in  the  trtntcript  for  "  iMunder." 

•  The  word  "  to  "  i»  omitted  in  the  tranKript. 

•  Tba  word  " on"  it  wibatltuted  in  the  tranacript  for     in. 


198      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

might  prevail  on  himself  to  accede  to  some  such  expedient  as  had 
been  hinted  by  M?  Wilson:  but  he  never  could  listen  to  an  equality 
of  votes  as  proposed  in  the  motion. 

Ml  Dayton.  When  assertion  is  given  for  proof,  and  terror  sub- 
stituted for  argument,  he  presumed  they  would  have  no  effect  how- 
ever eloquently  spoken.  It  should  have  been  shewn  that  the  evils 
we  have  experienced  have  proceeded  from  the  equality  now  objected 
to:  and  that  the  seeds  of  dissolution  for  the  State  Governments  are 
not  sown  in  the  GenJ  Government.  He  considered  the  system  on  the 
table  as  a  novelty,  an  amphibious  monster;  and  was  persuaded  that 
it  never  would  be  rec"?  by  the  people. 

W  Mabtin,  w1  never  confederate  if  it  could  not  be  done  an  just 
principles 

W  Madison  would  acquiesce  in  the  concession  hinted  by  M? 
Wilson,  on  condition  that  a  due  indepencii,nce  should  be  given  to  the 
Senate.  The  plan  in  its  present  shape  makes  the  Senate  absolutely 
dependent  on  the  States.  The  Senate  therefore  is  only  another 
edition  of  Cong?  He  knew  the  faults  of  that  Body  &  had  used,  a 
bold  language  ag!*  it.  Still  he  w^  preserve  the  State  rights,  as  care- 
fully as  the  triids  by  jury. 

MT  Bedford,  contended  that  there  was  no  middle  way  between  a 
perfect  consolidation  and  a  mere  confederacy  of  the  States.  The 
first  is  out  of  the  question,  and  in  the  latter  they  must  continue  if 
not  perfectly,  yet  equally  sovereign.  If  political  Societies  possess 
ambition  avarice,  and  all  the  other  passions  which  render  them 
formidable  to  each  other,  ought  we  not  to  view  them  in  this  light  heret 
Will  n-t  the  same  motives  operate  in  America  as  elsewhere?  If 
any  gentleman  doubts  it  let  him  look  at  the  votes.  Have  they  not 
been  dictated  by  interest,  by  ambition!  Are  not  the  large  States 
evidently  seeking  to  aggrandize  themselves  at  the  expense  of  the 
small  Y  They  think  no  doubt  that  they  have  right  on  their  side,  but 
interest  had  blinded  their  eyes.  Look  at  Georgia.  Though  a  small 
State  at  present,  she  is  actuated  by  the  prospect  of  soon  beinsf  a  great 
one.  S.  Carolina  is  actuated  both  by  present  interest  &  future  pros- 
pects. She  hopes  too  to  see  the  other  States  cut  down  to  her  own 
dimenuions.  N.  Carolina  has  the  same  motives  of  present  &  future 
interest.  Virg?  follows.  Maryl  is  not  on  that  aide  of  the  Question. 
Pen^  has  a  direct  and  future  interest.  Mass**  has  a  decided  and 
palpable  interest  in  the  part  she  takes.  Can  it  be  expected  that  the 
small  States  will  act  from  pure  disinterestedness.  Look  at  Q. 
Britain.  Is  the  Representation  there  less  unequal?  But  we  shall  be 
told  again  that  that  is  tlie  rotten  part  of  the  Constitution.  Have  not 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JUNE  30,  1787 


199 


the  boroughs  however  held  fart  their  conrtitutional  rights?  and  are 
we  to  act  with  greater  parity  than  the  rert  of  mankind,     kn  «aet 
proportion  in  the  Representation  is  not  preserved  in  any  one  o?  the 
States     Will  it  be  said  that  an  inequality  of  power  will  not  result 
from  an  inequality  of  votes.    Give  the  opportunity,  and  ambition  will 
not  faa  to  abuse  it.    The  whole  History  of  mankind  proves  it.    The 
three  large  States  have  a  common  interert  to  bind  them  together  in 
commerce.    But  whether  a  combination  as  we  suppose,  or  a  com- 
petition as  others  suppose,  shall  take  place  among  them,  m  either 
case,  the  smaUer*  States  must  be  ruined.    We  must  like  Solon  make 
bach  a  Govern'  as  the  people  wUl  approve.    Will  the  smaUer  States 
ever  agree  to  the  proposed  degradation  of  them.    It  is  not  true  that 
the  peoole  wiU  not  agree  to  enlarge  the  powers  of  the  present  Cong! 
The  Language  of  the  people  has  been  that  Cong?  ought  to  have  the 
power  of  collecting  an  impost,  and  of  coercing  the  States  when    it 
may  be  neceesaiy.    On  The  first  point  th«qr  have  been  explicit  &,  in 
a  manner,  unanimous  in  their  declarations.    And  murt  they  not  agree 
to  this  &  simUar  measures  if  they  ever  mean  to  discharge  their 
engagements.     The  Uttle  States  are  willing  to  observe  thtj  en- 
gagements, but  will  meet  the  large  ones  on  no  ground  but  that  of 
the  Confederation.    We  have  been  told  with  a  dictatorial  air  that 
this  is  the  last  moment  for  a  fair  trial  in  favor  of  a  good  Govemm- 
It  will  be  the  l«»t  indeed  if  the  propositions  reported  from  the  Com- 
mittee go  forth  to  the  people.    He  was  under  no  apprehensions.    The 
Large  States  dare  not  dissolve  the  Confederation.    If  they  do  the 
smaU  ones  wiU  find  some  foreign  ally  of  more  honor  and  good  faith, 
who  will  take  them  by  the  hand  and  do  them  justice.    He  did  not 
mean  by  this  to  intimidate  or  alarm.    It  was  a  natural  consequence; 
which  ought  to  be  avoided  by  enlarging  the  federal  powers  not 
annihilating  the  federal  system.    This  is  what  the  people  expect.    All 
agree  in  the  necessity  of  a  more  efficient  Gov!  and  why  not  make 
such  an  one ;  as  they  desire. 

Mr  Elsbworth,.  Under  a  National  Gov?  he  should  participate  m 
ihe  National  Security,  as  remarked  by  [W  King]  but  that  was  all. 
What  he  wanted  was  domestic  happiness.  The  Nat'  Govt  could  not 
descend  to  the  local  objects  on  which  this  depended.  It  could  only 
embrace  objects  of  a  general  nature.  He  turned  his  eyes  therefore 
for  the  preservation  of  his  rights  to  the  State  Gov«*.  Prom  these  alone 
he  could  derive  the  greatert  happiness  he  expects  in  this  life.    His 


•The  word  "imall"  is  Bubrtituted  in  the  transcript  for  " smaller." 
•  The  word  "  where  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for     when. 


200      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

happiness  depends  on  their  existence,  as  much  as  a  new  born  infant 
on  its  mother  for  nourishment.  If  this  reasoning  was  not  satisfactory, 
he  had  nothing  to  add  that  conld  be  so.  ^    ..     .     , 

MI  Kino  was  for  preserving  the  States  in  a  subordinate  degiee, 
and  as  far  as  they  could  be  necessary  for  the  purposes  stated  by 
M:  Elsewth.    He  did  not  think  a  full  answer  had  been  given  to  those 
who  apprehended  a  dangerous  encroachment  on  their  jurisdictions. 
Expedients  might  be  devised  as  he  conceived  that  would  give  them 
all  the  security  the  nature  of  things  would  admit  of.     In  the 
establishm*  of  Societies  the  Constitution  was  to  the  Legislature  what 
the  laws  were  to  individuals.    As  the  fundamental  rights  of  indmd- 
nals  are  secured  by  express  provisions  in  the  State  CoMtitutions ; 
why  may  not  a  like  security  be  provided  for  the  Rights  of  States  m 
the  National  Constitution.    The  articles  of  Union  between  EngL  & 
Scotland  furnish  an  example  of  such  a  provision  in  favor  of  sundry 
rights  of  Scotland.    When  that  Union  was  in  agitation,  the  same 
language  of  apprehension  which  has  been  heard  from  the  smaller 
States  was  in  the  mouths  of  the  Scotch  patriots.    The  articles  how- 
ever have  not  been  violated  and  the  Scotch  have  found  an  increase  of 
prosperity  &  happiness.    He  was  aware  that  this  will  be  called  a 
mere  paper  security.    He  thought  it  a  sufficient  answer  to  say  that 
if  fundamental  articles  of  compact,  are  no  sufficient  defence  agamst 
physical  power,  neither  will  there  be  any  safety  agl'  it  if  there  be 
no  compact.    He  could  not  sit  down,  without  taking  some  notice  of 
the  language  of  the  honorable  gentleman  from  Delaware  [M^  Bed- 
ford]    It  was  not  he  that  had  uttered  a  dictatorial  language.    This 
intemperance  had  marked  the  honorabl  gentleman  himself.    It  was 
not  he  who  with  a  vehemence  unprecedented  in  that  House,  had 
declared  himself  ready  to  turn  his  hopes  from  our  common  Counti^, 
and  court  the  protection  of  some  foreign  hand.     This  too  was  the 
language  of  the  Honbl  member  himself.    He  was  grieved  that  such  a 
thought  had  entered  into*  his  heart.    He  was  more  grieved  that 
8uch  an  expression  had  dropped  from  his  lips.     The  gentieman  c. 
only  excuse  it  to  himself  on  the  score  of  passion.    For  himself  what- 
ever might  be  his  distress,  he  w^  never  court  relief  from  a  foreign 

power. 

Adjourned 


» The  word  "  into  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JXJLT  2,  1787 


MoNDAT  July  2?  in  Convention 
On  the  question  for  allowing  each  State  one  vote  in  the  Bccond 
branch  as  moved  by  W  Elaeworth,*  Mass?  no.  Con^  ay.  N.  Y.  ay. 
N.  J.  ay.  Pt  no.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay.  Mr  Jenifer  being  not  present 
W.  Martin  alone  voted  V  no.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  no.  Geo.  divl  M'. 
Houston  no.    M^  Baldwin  ay. 

M'.  PiNKNET  thought  an  equality  of  votes  in  the  21  branch  in- 
admissible. At  the  same  time  candor  obliged  him  to  admit  that  the 
large  States  would  feel  a  partiality  for  their  own  Citizens  &  give 
them  a  preference,  in  appointments:  that  they  might  also  find 
some  common  points  in  their  commercial  interests,  and  promote 
treaties  favorable  to  them.  There  is  a  real  distinction  =  the  Northern 
&  South?  interests.  N.  Carol!  S.  Carol:  &  Geo.  in  their  Eice  & 
Indigo  had  a  pecu"  r  interest  which  might  be  sacrificed.  How  then 
shall  the  lai^er  ist-tes  be  prevented  from  administering  the  Gen! 
Gov?  as  they  please,  without  being  themselves  unduly  subjected  to  the 
wiU  of  the  smaUert  By  allowing  them  some  but  not  a  full  pro- 
portion. He  was  extremely  anxious  that  something  should  be  done, 
considering  this  as  the  last  appeal  to  a  regular  experiment.  Cong! 
have  failed  in  almost  every  effort  for  an  amendment  of  the  federal 
System.  Nothing  has  prevented  a  dissolution  of  it,  but  the  appointm? 
of  this  Convention ;  &  he  could  not  express  his  alarms  for  the  con- 
sequences of  such  an  event  He  read  his  motion,  to  form  the  States 
into  classes,  with  an  apportionment  of  Senators  among  them,  [see 
art.  4,  of  his  plan].* 

General  Pinknet.  was  willing  the  motion  might  be  considered. 
He  did  not  entirely  approve  it.  He  liked  better  the  motion  of  Doc^ 
Franklin  [which  see  Saturday  June  30].  Some  compromise  seemed 
to  be  necessary:  the  States  being  exactly  divided  on  the  question  for 
an  equality  of  votes  in  the  2*  branch.  He  proposed  that  a  Com- 
mittee consisting  of  a  member  from  each  State  should  be  appointed  to 
devise  &  report  some  compromise. 

MI  L.  Martin  had  no  objection  to  a  commitment,  but  no  modifica- 
tions whatever  could  reconcile  the  Smaller  States  to  the  least  diminu- 
tion of  their  equal  Sovereignty.  

■  The  phrase  "  it  was  lout  by  an  equal  division  of  votes,"  is  here  inserted  in 
the  transcript  and  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  York,  New  Jersey.  Dela- 
ware Maryland,*  aye— 5;  Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania.  Virgiuia,  North  Caro- 
nnlt'siuth^Carilina.  no-6,  Georgia,  divided  [Mr  Baldwin,  aye  Mr.  Houston, 
no]  "  The  footnote  referring  to  Maryland  reads:  "  Mr.  Jenifer  not  being  present, 
Mr.  Martin  alone  voted."  .  .      .     ^  •  * 

■  The  word  "  between  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

■  See  Appendix  to  Debates,  IV,  No.  3,  p.  600. 


202      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

M!  Shabman.  "We  are  now  at  a  full  stop,  and  nobody  he  sup- 
posed meant  that  we  sh*?  break  up  without  doing  something.  A 
committee  he  thought  most  likely  to  hit  on  some  expedient. 

•  W  Gtovl  Morris,  thought  a  Com',  adviseable  as  the  Convention  had 
been  equally  divided.    He  had  a  stronger  reason  also.    The  mode  of 
appointing  the  21  branch  tended  he  was  sure  to  defeat  the  object 
of  it.    What  is  this  object?  to  check  the  precipitation,  changeableness, 
and  excesses  of  the  first  branch.    Every  man  of  observation  had  seen 
in  the  democratic  branches  of  the  State  Legislatures,  precipitation— 
in  Congress  changeableness,  in  every  department  excesses  agC'  per- 
sonal liberty  private  property  &  personal  safety.     What  qualities 
are  necessary  to  constitute  a  cheek  in  this  case?    AbUities  and  virtue, 
are  equally  necessary  in  both  branches.    Something  more  then  is  now 
wanted.     1.'  the  cheeking  branch  must  have  b  personal  interest  in 
checking  the  other  branch,  one  interest  must  be  opposed  to  another 
interest.    Vices  as  they  exist,  must  be  turned  ag?*  each  other.    2.'  It 
must  have  great  personal  property,  it  must  have  the  aristocratic 
spirit;  it  must  love  to  lord  it  thro'  pride,  pride  is  indeed  the  great 
principle  that  actuates  both  the  poor  &  the  rich.    It  is  this  principle 
which  in  the  former  resists,  in  the  latter  abuses  authority.    3.*  It 
should  be  independent.     In  Religion  the  Creature  is  apt  to  forget 
its  Creator.    That  it  is  otherwise  in  political  affairs,  the  late  debates 
here  are  an  unhappy  proof.    The  aristocratic  body,  should  be  as 
independent  &  as  firm  as  the  democratic.    If  the  members  of  it  are  to 
revert  to  a  dependence  on  the  democratic  choice,  the  democratic  scale 
will  preponderate.    All  the  guards  contrived  by  America  have  not 
restrained  the  Senatorial  branches  of  the  Legislatures  from  a  servile 
complaisance  to  the  democratic.    If  the  2?  branch  is  to  be  dependent 
we  are  better  without  it.    To  make  it  independent,  it  should  be  for 
life.    It  will  then  do  wrong,  it  will  be  said.    He  believed  so:    H6 
hoped  so.    The  Rich  will  strive  to  establish  their  dominion  &  enslave 
the  rest.    They  always  did.    They  always  will.    The  proper  security 
ag"  them  is  to  form  them  into  a  separate  interest.    The  two  forces 
will  then  controul  each  other.    Let  the  rich  mix  with  the  poor  and 
in  a  Commercial  Country,  they  will  establish  an  oligarchy.    Take 
away  commerce,  and  the  democracy  will  triumph.    Thus  it  has  been 

•  Transfer  hither  the  marginal  note."      .  .        „  ^,  .       .  ,. 

•  He  had  just  returned  from  N.  Y.  hav«  left  y^  Convention  a  few  days  after 
it  commenced  businesB. 


'  Madiion's  direction  concerning  the  footnote  is  omitted  in  the  transcript 
'  The  fieuro  "  1  "  is  changed  to  "  In  the  first  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  figure  "  2  "  is  changed  to  "  In  the  second  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  figure  "  3  "  ia  changed  to  "  In  the  third  place  "  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JULY  2,  1787 


203 


all  the  world  over.  So  it  will  be  among  va.  Reason  tells  as  we  are 
but  men:  and  we  are  not  to  expect  any  particular  interference  of 
Heaven  in  our  favor.  By  thus  combining  &  setting  apart,  the  aristo- 
cratic interest,  the  popular  interest  will  be  combined  ag?'  it.  There 
will  be  a  mutual  check  and  mutual  security.  4.-  An  independence 
for  life,  involves  the  necessary  permanency.  If  we  change  our 
measures  no  body  will  trust  us :  and  how  avoid  a  change  of  measures, 
but  by  avoiding  a  change  of  men.  Ask  any  man  if  he  confides  in 
Cong!  if  he  confides  in  the  State  of  Pen^  if  he  will  lend  his  money 
or  enter  into  contract  t  He  will  tell  you  no.  He  sees  no  stability. 
He  can  repose  no  confidence.  If  O.  B.  were  to  explain  her  refusal  to 
treat  with  us,  the  same  reasoning  would  be  employed. — He  disliked 
the  exclusion  of  the  21  branch  from  holding  offices.  It  is  dangerous. 
It  is  like  the  imprudent  exclusion  of  the  military  officers  during 
the  war,  from  civil  appointments.  It  deprives  the  Executive  of  the 
principal  source  of  influence.  If  danger  be  apprehended  from  the 
li^xecutive  what  a  lift^handed  way  is  this  of  obviating  itt  If  the 
u,..,  the  brother  or  the  friend  can  be  appointed,  the  danger  may  be 
fven  increased,  as  the  disqualified  father  &c.  can  then  boast  of  a 
disinterestedness  which  he  does  not  possess.  Besides  shall  the  best, 
the  most  able,  the  most  virtuous  citizens  not  be  permitted  to  hold 
offices?  Who  then  are  to  hold  themt  He  was  also  agf  paying  the 
Senators.  They  will  pay  themselves  if  they  can.  If  they  can  not 
they  will  be  rich  and  can  do  without  it  Of  such  the  2*!  branch 
ought  to  consist ;  and  none  but  such  can  compose  it  if  they  are  not 
to  be  paid — He  contended  that  the  Executive  should  appoint  the 
Senate  &  fill  up  vacancies.  This  gets  rid  of  the  difficulty  in  the 
present  question.  You  may  begin  with  any  ratio  you  please ;  it  wiU 
come  to  the  same  thing.  The  members  being  independ^  &'  for  life, 
may  be  taken  as  well  from  one  place  as  from  another. — It  should  be 
considered  too  how  the  scheme  could  be  carried  through  the  States. 
He  hoped  there  was  strength  of  mind  eno'  in  this  House  to  look 
truth  in  the  face.  He  did  not  hesitate  therefore  to  s..y  that  loaves 
&  fishes  must  bribe  the  Demagogues.  They  must  be  made  to  expect 
higher  offices  under  the  general  than  the  State  Gov*¥  A  Senate  for 
life  will  be  a  noble  bait  Without  such  captivating  prospects,  the 
popular  leat^'irs  will  oppose  &  defeat  the  plan.  He  perceived  that 
the  1^  branch  was  to  be  chosen  by  the  people  of  the  States:  the  21 
by  those  chosen  by  the  people.  Is  not  here  a  (Jov!  by  the  States.  A 
Ctovemi  by  Compact  between  Virg*  in  the  1?*  &  21  branch ;  Mas^  in 


'  The  figure  "  4  "  is  changed  to  "  In  the  fourth  pltuw  "  in  the  truucript 


204      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

the  1'!  &  2^  branch  &c.  This  is  going  back  to  mere  treaty.  It  is  no 
Gov^  at  all.  It  is  altogether  depeadent  on  the  States,  and  will  act  over 
again  the  part  which  Congf  ban  acted.  A  firm  Ck>vem.  alone  can 
protect  our  liberties.  He  fears  the  influence  of  the  rich.  They  will 
have  the  same  effect  here  as  elsewhere  if  we  do  not  by  such  a  Qov^ 
keep  them  within  their  proper  sphere.'  We  should  remember  that  the 
people  never  act  from  reason  alone.  The  Rich  will  take '  advantage 
of  their  passions  &  make  these  the  instruments  for  oppressing  them. 
The  Result  of  the  Contest  will  be  a  violent  aristocracy,  or  a  more 
violent  despotism.  The  sclumes  of  the  Rich  will  be  favored  by  the 
extent  of  the  Country.  The  people  m  such  distant  parts  can  not 
communicate  &  act  in  concert.  They  will  be  the  dupes  of  those  who 
have  more  knowledge  &  intercourse.  The  only  oecurity  ag*?  encroach- 
ments will  be  a  select  &  sagacious  body  of  men,  instituted  to  watch 
agf  them  on  all  sides.  He  meant  only  to  hint  these  observations, 
'without  grounding  any  motion  on  them 

M-  Randolph  favored  the  commitment  though  he  did  not  expect 
much  benefit  from  the  expedient.  He  animadverted  on  the  warm  & 
rash  language  of  Mi  Bedford  on  Saturday;  reminded  the  small 
States  that  if  the  large  States  should  combine  some  danger  of  which  he 
did  not  deny  there  would  be  a  check  in  the  revisionary  power  of  the 
Executive,  and  intimated  that  in  order  to  render  this  still  more 
effectual,  he  would  agree  that  in  the  choice  of  the'  Executive  each 
State  should  have  an  equal  vote.  He  was  persuaded  that  two  such 
opposite  bodies  as  W-  Morris  had  planned,  could  never  long  co-exist. 
Dissentions  would  arise  as  has  been  seen  even  between  the  Senate 
and  H.  of  Delegates  in  Marjiand,  appeals  would  be  made  to  the 
people ;  and  in  a  little  time,  commotions  would  be  the  result — He  was 
far  from  thinking  the  large  States  could  subsist  of  themselves  any 
more  than  the  smell;  an  avulsion  would  involve  the  whole  in  ruin, 
and  he  was  determined  to  pursue  such  a  scheme  of  Qovemment  as 
would  secure  us  ag!*  such  a  calamity. 

Mr  STRoyo  was  for  the  Commitment;  and  hoped  the  mode  of 
constituting  both  branches  would  be  referred.  If  they  should  be  estab- 
lished on  different  principles,  contentions  would  prevail,  and  there 
would  never  be  a  concurrence  in  necessary  measures. 

Doc'.  Williamson.  If  we  do  not  concede  on  both  sides,  our 
business  m-  st  soon  be  at  an  end.    He  approved  of  the  Commitment, 


»  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  sphere  "  in  the  plural. 

*  The  word  "  tl:  ^  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  ar.  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  the." 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JULY  2,  1787 

supposing  that  as  the  Com*.  w1  be  a  smaller  body,  a  compromise  would 
be  pursued  with  more  coolness 

MT  WiLJSON  objected  to  the  Committee,  because  it  would  decide 
according  to  that  very  rule  of  voting  which  was  opposed  on  one  side. 
Experience  in  Cong?  had  also  proved  the  inutility  of  Committees 
consisting  of  members  from  each  State 

M'  Lansino  w^  not  oppose  the  commitment,  though  expecting  little 
advantage  from  it. 

Mr  ^Iadison  opposed  the  Commitment.  He  had  rarely  seen  any 
other  effect  than  delay  from  such  Committees  in  Cong?  Any  scheme 
of  compromise  that  could  be  proposed  in  the  Committee  might  as 
easily  be  proposed  in  the  House;  and  the  report  of  the  Committee 
when^  it  contained  merely  the  opinion  of  the  Com*  would 
neither  shorten  the  discussion,  nor  influence  the  decision  of  the 
House.  • 

M'  Oerby  was  for  the  CommitnU  Something  must  be  done,  or  we 
shall  disappoint  not  only  America,  but  the  whole  world.  He  sug- 
gested a  consideration  of  the  State  we  should  be  thrown  into  by  the 
failure  of  the  Union.  We  should  be  without  an  Umpire  to  decide 
controversies  and  must  be  at  the  mercy  of  events.  What  too  is  to 
become  of  our  treaties — what  of  our  foreign  debts,  what  of  our  do- 
mestic t  We  must  make  concessions  on  both  sides.  Without  these 
the  Constitutions  of  the  several  States  would  never  have  been  formed. 

On  the  question  "  for  committing,"  generally: 

Maat?  ay.  Con?  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P.  ay.  Del.  no. 
M?  ay.    V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  the  question  for  committing '  '  to  !k  member  from  each  State." 

Mass*!  ay.  Con?  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  M^  ay. 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

The  Committee  elected  by  ballot,  were  Mf  Gerry,  W  Elseworth, 
M'  Yates,  M'.  Patterson,  Dt  Franklin,  Mr  Bedford,  M'.  Martin, 
iP.  Mason,  Mi  Davy,  MT  Rutlidge,  Mr.  Baldwin. 

That  time  might  be  given  to  the  Committee,  and  to  such  as  chose 
to  attend  to  the  celebrations  on  the  anniversary  of  Independence, 
the  Convention  adjourned  till  Thursday. 


'  The  word  "  where  "  it  substituted  in  the  tranNript  for  "  when." 

•  In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Yorlc, 
Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia, 
aye — 9;  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  no — 2." 

•  The  word  "  it "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Connecticut.  New  York, 
New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye — 10;  Pennsylvania,  no — 1." 


206 


DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


Thubsdat  July  5™  in  Convtotion 

IK  Gerey  delivered  in  from  the  Committee  appointed  on  Mondiy 
last  the  following  Report. 

"  The  Committee  to  whom  was  referred  the  f  Re~l-  o'  *5" 

shall  have  an  equal  vote."* 

MI  Ghobum  observed  that  as  the  report  consisted  of  propositions 
mutually  conditional  he  wished  to  hear  some  explaaations  touching 
the  Jtrounds  on  which  the  conditions  were  estimated. 

M'  Gerbt.  The  Committee  were  of  different  opinions  as  well 
as  the  Deputations  from  which  the  Com'  were  taken,  and  agreed  to 
the  Report  merely  in  order  that  some  ground  of  accomodation  might 
be  proposed.  Those  opposed  to  the  equality  of  votes  have  only 
assented  conditionally;  and  if  the  other  side  do  not  generally  agree 
wUl  not  be  under  any  obligation  to  support  the  Report. 

MJ  Wilson  thought  the  Committee  had  exceeded  their  powers. 

W  Martin  was  for  taking  the  question  on  the  whole  report. 


membefB  on  the  other  jide.  "  »  •^/"''^ Vwworth'rvho  wm  ke^^  away  by  indis- 
Ur  Sherman  [he  ■  "l^l '"  j'^.  °i,M  „S  ^eff^t  "  that  each  We  Should  have 


M'  Sherman  ine  -  acira  m  P—^l  "•     ,:  „;"„„«»„♦ 


to  "  nine  States."    See  JoumaU  ol  Cong;  for  1777,  p.  Wi-  


■  The  word  "  who  "  is  aubatituted  in  the  tranacript  for  "he." 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JULY  5,  1787 


MT 


Mr  WiuoN  was  for  a  diviiion  of  the  nuc-stioo :  otlierwia*  it  w1  b« 
a  leap  in  the  dark. 

Mr  Madison,  could  not  regard  the  exclosive  *  privilege  of  originating 
money  bills  as  any  concession  o^  '»  side  of  the  small  States.  Experi- 
ence proved  that  it  had  no  eifeet  If  seven  States  in  the  upper  branch 
wished  a  bill  to  be  originated,  they  might  surely  find  some  member 
from  some  of  the  same  States  in  the  lower  branch  who  would  originate 
it.  The  restriction  as  to  amendments  was  of  as  little  consequence. 
Amendments  oould  be  handed  privately  by  the  Senate  to  members 
in  the  other  house.  Bills  could  be  negatived  that  they  might  be 
sent  up  in  the  desired  shape.  If  the  Senate  should  yield  to  the 
obstinacy  of  the  1'^  branch  the  use  of  that  body  as  a  check  would 
be  lost.  If  the  1!*  branch  should  yield  to  that  of  the  Senate,  the 
privilege  would  be  nugatory.  Experience  had  also  shewn  both  in 
6.  B.  and  the  States  having  a  similar  regulation  that  it  was  a 
source  of  frequent  &  obstinate  altercations.  These  considerations  had 
produced  a  rejection  of  a  like  motion  on  a  former  occasion  when 
judged  by  its  own  merits.  It  could  not  therefore  be  deemed  any 
concession  on  the  present,  and  left  in  force  all  the  objections  which 
had  prevailed  ag^  allowing  each  State  an  equal  voice.  He  conceived 
that  the  Convention  was  reduced  to  the  alternative  of  either  depart- 
ing from  justice  in  order  to  conciliate  the  smaller  States,  and  the 
minority  of  the  people  of  the  U.  S.  or  of  displeasing  these  by  justly 
gratifying  the  larger  States  and  the  majority  of  the  people.  He 
could  not  himself  hesitate  as  to  the  option  he  ought  to  make.  The 
Convention  with  justice  &  f  e  majority  of  the  people  on  their  side, 
had  nothing  to  fear.  With  injustice  and  the  minority  on  their  side 
they  had  every  thing  to  fear.  It  was  in  vain  to  purchase  concord 
in  the  Convention  on  terms  which  would  perpetuate  discord  among 
their  Constituents.  The  Convention  ought  to  pursue  a  plan  which 
would  bear  the  test  of  examination,  which  would  be  espoused  &  sup- 
ported by  the  enlightened  and  impartial  part  of  America,  &  which 
they  could  themselves  vindicate  and  urge.  It  should  be  considered 
that  altho'  at  first  many  may  judge  of  the  system  recommended,  by 
their  opinion  of  the  Convention,  yet  finally  all  will  judge  of  the 
Convention  by  the  Sjrstem.  The  merits  of  the  System  alone  can 
finally  &  effectually  obtain  the  public  suffrage.  He  was  not  appre- 
hensive that  the  people  of  the  small  States  would  obstinately  refuse 
to  accede  to  a  Gov^  founded  on  just  principles,  and  promising  them 
substantial  protection.    He  could  not  suspect  that  Delaware  would 


•  The  word  "  exclusive  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


208      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

brave  the  con«quence«  of  •eeking  her  fortune.  .p«t  from  the  other 
State.,  rather  than  submit  to  .uch  a  Gov^  much  le«  could  he  .u.pect 
that  .he  would  pumue  the  r..h  policy  of  ^-^mg  f|,mpi  "P^^;;^ 
which  the  warmth  of  one  of  her  reprcenUt.ve.  [Ml  Bedford]  hi^ 
rugg^ted.  or  if  .he  .W  that  any  foreign  nation  wl  be  «,  ra.h  a.    o 
Sn  to  the  overture.    A.  little  could  he  «»peot  that  the  people 
of  N  Jemy  notwith.tanding  the  decided  tone  of  the  genUemen  from 
that  State,  would  choo«,  rather  to  rtand  on  their  ovm  leg.|,  and 
bid  defianie  to  event.,  than  to  acquie«e  under  «.  ert«bl«hment 
flded  on  principle,  the  ju.tice  of  which  they  could  not  d„ipu«, 
and  absolutely  nece«ary  to  redeem  them  from  the  ex«t.o|»  lejd  on 
them  by  the  commerce  of  the  neighbouring  State..    A  review  of  other 
State,  would  prove  that  there  wa.  a.  litUe  rea«.n  to  apprehend  an 
LSexbTe  opposition  eUewhere.  Harmony  in  the  Convention  was  no 
Tubt  much  to  be  desired.    Satisfaction  to  all  the  State.,  in  the  flrtt 
instance  rtiU  more  so.    But  if  the  principal  Stat*.  «>™P"h»^ng  . 
majority  of  the  people  of  the  U.  S.  diould  concur  m  a  jmit  &  Jnd  «oua 
pli   he  had  the  firmert  hope.,  that  ril  the  other  State,  would  by 

deirrees  accede  to  it.  . .    . ,       »  ^t.        i„  «# 

MT  BUTLEB  Mid  ho  could  not  let  down  hi.  idea  of  the  people,  of 
America  «.  far  a.  to  believe  they  would  from  mere  ';e.pect  to  fte 
Convention  adopt  a  plan  evidently  nnju.t.  He  did  not  «>^der  A« 
privilege  concerning  money  bills  as  of  any  com«quence  He  org^ 
that  the  2*  branch  ought  to  repre^snt  the  State,  according  to  their 

^"En'oov^  MoBius.  thought  the  form  an  well  as  the  matter  of  the 
Report  objectionable.    It  seemed  in  the  first  place  to  render  amend- 
ments impracticable.    In  the  next  place,  it  seemed  to  involve  a  pledge 
Tagree  to  the  21  part  if  the  1?  .hi  be  agreed  to.    He  conceived 
the  whole  aspect  of  it  to  be  wrong.    He  came  here  a.  a  Bepre«ntative 
of  America;  he  flattered  himself  he  came  here  in  some  degree  as* 
Representative  of  the  whole  human  race;  for  the  whole  ^^nman  rwe 
will  be  affected  by  the  proceedings  of  this  Convention.    He  wished 
gentlemen  to  extend  their  views  beyond  the  present  moment  of  time; 
Jeyond  the  narrow  limit,  of  place  from  which  they  denve  thejr 
political  origin.    If  he  were  to  believe  ««"»« J^jf  ^'^f  .„^f  J"? 
heard,  he  should  suppose  that  we  were  assembled  to  truck  and  bar- 
gain for  o,ir  particular  States.    He  can-not  descend  to  think    hat 
^gentlemen  are  really  actuated  by  these  views.    We  "lUst  l<»k 
forward  to  the  effect,  of  what  we  do.    These  alone  ought  to  guide  n.. 
Much  has  been  said  of  the  sentiments  of  the  people.    They  were  un- 
bTn     They  could  not  be  kno^.     All  that  we  can  infer  is  that 


SESSION  OF  THURSDAY,  JULY  5,  1787 

if  the  plan  we  recommend  be  reuonable  k  right ;  all  who  have  reason- 
able minds  and  loand  intention!  will  embrace  it,  notwithatanding 
what  had  been  laid  by  acme  gentlemen.  Let  oa  rappoae  that  the 
larger  SUtea  shall  agree;  and  that  the  smaller  refuse:  and  let  us  trace 
the  consequences.  The  opponents  of  the  system  in  the  smaller  States 
will  no  doobt  make  a  party,  and  a  noise  for  a  time,  but  the  ties  of 
interest,  of  kindred  &  of  common  habits  which  connect  them  with  the 
other  States  will  be  too  strong  to  be  easily  broken.  In  N.  Jersey 
particnlarly  he  was  sure  a  great  many  would  follow  the  sentiments 
of  Pen?  A  N.  York.  This  Country  must  be  united.  If  persuasion 
does  not  unite  it,  the  sword  will.  He  begged  that » this  consideration 
miKht  have  ita  due  weight.  Thb  scenes  of  horror  attending  civil 
commotion  can  not  b«  described,  and  the  conclusion  of  them  will  be 
worse  than  the  term  of  their  continuance.  The  stronger  party  will 
then  make  traytors  of  the  weaker;  and  the  Gallows  i.  Halter  will 
finish  the  work  of  the  sword.  How  far  foreign  powers  would  be 
ready  to  take  part  in  the  confusions  he  would  not  say.  Threats  that 
they  will  be  invited  have  it  seems  been  thrown  out.  He  drew  the 
melancholy  picture  of  foreign  intrusions  as  exhibited  in  the  History 
of  Germany,  ft  urged  it  as  a  standing  lesson  to  other  nations.  He 
trusted  that  the  Qentlemen  who  may  have  hazarded  such  expres- 
sions, did  not  entertain  them  till  they  reached  their  own  lips.  But 
returning  to  the  Report  he  could  not  think  it  in  any  respect  calcu- 
lated for  the  public  good.  As  the  2?  branch  is  now  constituted, 
there  will  be  constant  disputes  ft  appeals  to  the  States  which  will 
undermine  the  Qeti  Government  ft  controul  ft  annihilate  the  1? 
branch.  Suppose  that  the  delegates  from  Mass*!  ft  Rho  I.  in  the 
Upper  House  disagree,  and  that  the  former  are  outvoted.  What 
Results!  they  will  immediately  declare  that  their  Sta*e  will  not 
abide  by  the  decision,  and  make  such  representations  as  will  produce 
that  effect.  The  same  may  happen  as  to  Virg*  ft  other  States.  Of 
what  avail  then  will  be  what  is  on  paper.  State  attachments,  and 
State  importance  have  been  the  bane  of  this  Country.  We  can  not 
annihilate;  but  we  may  perhaps  take  at  the  teeth  of  the  serpents. 
He  wished  our  ideas  to  be  enlarged  to  the  true  interest  of  man, 
instead  of  being  circumscribed  within  the  narrow  compass  of  a  par- 
ticular Spot.  And  after  all  how  little  can  be  the  motive  yielded  by 
selfishness  for  such  a  policy.  Who  can  say  whether  he  himself,  much 
less  whether  his  children,  will  the  next  year  be  an  inhabitant  of 
this  or  that  State. 


■  Tbe  word  "  that "  it  omittml  in  the  traiMcript. 


210     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

MI  Bbdtoid.    H«  found  that  what  he  h»d  wid  m  to  th«  •miU 
States  being  taken  by  the  hand,  had  been  muunderrtood;  and  be 
roee  to  explain.    He  did  not  mean  that  the  einaU  State,  would  court 
the  aid  ft  interpoeition  of  foreign  powen.     He  meant  that  they 
would  not  consider  the  federal  compact  aa  diawlred  untdl  it  ahould 
be  ao  by  the  AcU  of  the  large  States.    In  this  case  The  consequence 
of  the  breach  of  faith  on  their  part,  and  the  readiness  of  the  small 
SUtes  to  fulfill  their  engagements,  would  be  that  foreign  Nations 
having  demands  on  thU  '.'ountry  would  find  it  their  interest  to  take 
the  amaU  States  by  the  hand,  in  order  to  do  themselves  justice.    This 
was  what  he  meant.    But  no  man  can  foresee  to  what  extremities  the 
small  States  may  be  driven  by  oppression.     He  observed  also  m 
apology  that  some  allowance  ought  to  be  made  for  the  habiU  of 
his  profeuion  in  which  warmth  was  natural  &  sometimes  necessary. 
But  is  there  not  an  apology  in  what  was  said  by  [Mi  Gov?  Moms] 
that  the  sword  is  to  unite:  by  M'.  Ohorum  that  Delaware  must  be 
annexed  to  Penn?  and  N.  Jersey  divided  between  Pen'  and  N.  York. 
To  hear  such  language  without  emotion,  would  be  to  renounce  the 
feelings  of  a  man  and  the  duty  o£  a  Citiaen— As  to  the  propositions 
of  the  Committee,  the  lesse.  States  have  thought  it  necessary  to  have  a 
security  somewhere.    ThU  has  been  thought  necessary     r  the  Execu- 
tive Magistrate  of  the  proposed  Gov?  who  has  a  sort  of  negative  on 
the  laws;  and  is  it  not  of  more  importance  that  the  States  should 
be  protected,  than  that  the  Executive  branch  of  the  Gov*  sh.  be 
protected.    In  order  to  obtain  this,  the  smaller  States  have  conceded 
as  to  the  constitution  of  the  first  bianch,  and  as  to  money  bUU.    If 
they  be  not  gratified  by  correspondent  concessions  as  to  the  21  branch 
is  it  to  be  supposed  they  will  ever  accede  to  the  plan ;  and  what  wUl 
be  the  consequence  if  nothing  should  be  done!    The  condition  of  the 
U.  States  requires  that  something  should  be  immediately  done.    It  will 
be  better  that  a  defective  plan  should  be  adopted,  than  that  none 
should  be  recommended.    He  saw  no  reason  why  defects  might  not 
be  supplied  by  meetings  10,  15,  or  20  years  henee. 

MI  Elsewobth  said  he  had  not  attended  the  proceedings  of  the 
Committee,  but  was  ready  to  accede  to  the  compromise  they  had 
reported.  Some  compromise  was  necessary;  and  he  saw  none  more 
convenient  or  reasonable. 

M'.  WiLLi.^MSON  hoped  that  the  expressions  of  individuals  would 
not  be  taken  for  the  sense  of  their  colleagues,  much  less  of  their 
States  which  was  not  &  could  not  be  known.  He  hoped  also  that  the 
meaning  of  those  expressions  would  not  be  misconstrued  or  exag- 
gerated.    He  did  not  conceive  that  [M^  Govt  Morris]  meant  that 


SESSION  OF  TEUR80AT.  JULT  0,  1787 


811 


the  tword  oti(bt  to  b«  drawn  ag^  the  amalltr  Stataa.  Ha  only  ^ointad 
out  tha  probable  conaequeDcea  of  anarchy  in  tha  U.  8.  A  aimilar 
expoaitioD  ought  to  be  given  of  the  expraaaiona  >»f  W  Oborum]. 
He  waa  ready  to  hear  the  Report  diaeuaaad ;  but  thought  tha  propoai- 
tiona  contained  in  it,  the  moat  objectionable  of  any  be  had  yat  heard. 
M!  Pattimon  aaid  that  ha  had  when  the  Report  waa  agreed  to 
in  the  CotP'.  reaerved  to  himaelf  the  right  of  freely  diacuaaing  it. 
He  acknowledged  that  the  warmth  complained  of  waa  improper; 
but  he  thought  the  Sword  k  the  Oallowa  aa  *  little  calculated  to  pro- 
duce conviction.  He  complained  of  the  manner  in  which  M^  M —  A 
Mr  Oov^  Morria  had  treated  the  amall  Sutea. 

M'.  Onay.  Tho'  he  had  aaaented  to  the  Report  in  the  Committee, 
he  had  very  material  objectiona  to  it.  We  were  however  in  a  peculiar 
aituation.  We  were  neither  the  aame  Nation  nor  different  Nationa. 
We  ought  not  therefore  to  pnraue  the  one  or  the  other  of  theae  ideaa 
too  cloaely.  If  no  compromiae  ahould  take  place  what  will  be  the 
consequence.  A  aecesaion  he  foreaaw  would  take  place;  for  aome 
gentlemen  aeem  decided  on  it;  two  different;  plana  will  be  propoaed; 
and  the  result  no  man  could  foreaee.  If  we  do  not  come  to  some 
agreement  among  ouraelvea  aome  foreign  aword  will  probably  do  the 
work  for  us. 

Mr  Mason.  The  Report  waa  meant  not  aa  apecifle  propoaitiona 
to  be  adopted;  but  merely  as  a  general  ground  of  accomodation. 
There  must  be  aome  accomodation  on  this  point,  or  we  ahall  make 
little  further  progreas  in  the  work.  Accomodation  waa  the  object 
of  the  House  in  the  appointment  of  the  Committee;  and  of  the  Com- 
mittee in  the  Report  they  had  made.  And  however  liable  the  F  p.'t 
might  be  to  objectiona,  he  thought  it  preferable  to  an  appeal  to 
the  world  by  the  different  sidea,  aa  had  been  talked  of  by  some  Gentle- 
men. It  could  not  be  more  inconvenient  to  any  gentleman  to  remain 
absent  from  hii  private  affaire,  than  it  waa  for  him:  but  he  would 
bury  his  bones  in  thia  City  rather  than  expose  hia  Country  to  the 
Consequences  of  a  disaolution  of  the  Convention  without  any  thing 
being  done. 

The  15'  proposition  in  the  report  for  fixing  the  repreaentation  in 
the  l'.»  branch,  one  member  for  every  40,000  inhabitanta,  being 
taken  up. 

M'.  Govt  Morris  objected  to  that  scale  of  apportionment.  He 
thought  property  ought  to  be  taken  into  the  estimate  aa  well  as  the 
number  of  inhabitants.    Life  &  liberty  were  generally  said  to  be  of 


'  The  word  "  a»  "  it  croMed  out  In  the  tranecript. 


212      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

more  value,  than  property.    An  accurate  view  of  the  matter  would 
nevertheless  prove  that  property  was  the  main  object  of  Society, 
The  savage  Ste.te  was  more  favorable  to  liberty  than  the  Civilised ; 
and  sufficiently  so  to  life.    It  was  preferred  by  all  men  who  had  not 
acquired  a  taste  for  property;  it  was  only  renounced  for  the  sake  of 
property  which  could  only  be  secured  by  the  restraints  of  regular 
Government.    These  ideas  might  appear  to  some  new,  but  they  were 
nevertheless  just.     If  property  then  was  the  main  object  of  Gov? 
certainly  it  ought  to  be  one  measure  of  the  influence  due  to  those 
who  were  to  be  affected  by  the  Govemml    He  looked  forward  also 
to  that  range  of  New  States  which  w4  soon  be  formed  in  the  West 
He  thought  the  rule  of  representation  ought  to  be  so  fixed  as  to 
KKure  to  the  Atlantic  States  a  prevalence  in  the  National  Councils, 
Ihe  new  States  will  know  less  of  the  public  interest  than  these,  will 
iiave  an  interest  in  many  respects  different,  in  particular  will  be 
little  scrupulous  of  involving  the  Community  in  wars  the  burdens  & 
operations  of  which  would  fall  chiefly  on  the  maritime  States.    Pro- 
vision ought  therefore  to  be  made  to  prevent  the  maritime  States 
from  being  hereafter  outvoted  by  them.    He  thought  this  might  be 
easily  done  by  irrevocably  fixing  the  number  of  representatives 
which  the  Atlantic  States  should  respectively  have,  and  the  number 
which  each  new  State  will  have.     This  w1  not  be  unjust,  as  the 
Western  settlers  w^  previously  know  the  conditions  on  which  they 
were  to  possess  their  lands.    It  would  be  politic  as  it  would  recommend 
the  plan  to  the  present  as  well  as  future  interest  of  the  States  which 
must  decide  the  fate  of  it. 

M^  RuTUDGB.  The  gentleman  last  up  had  spoken  some  of  his 
sentiments  piecisely.  Property  was  certainly  the  principal  object  of 
Society.  If  numbers  should  be  made  the  rule  of  representation,  the 
Atlantic  States  will  *  be  subjected  to  the  Western.  He  moved  that  the 
first  proposition  in  the  report  be  postponed  in  order  to  take  up  the 
following  viz  "  that  the  suffrages  of  the  several  States  be  regulated 
and  proportioned  according  to  the  sums  to  be  paid  towards  the 
general  revenue  by  the  inhabitants  of  each  State  respectively,  that 
an  apportionment  of  suffrages,  according  to  the  ratio  aforesaid 
shall  be  made  and  regulated  at  the  end  of  years  from  the 
1!'  meeting  of  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  and  at  the  end  of 
every  years  but  that  for  the  present,  and  until  the  period 
above  mentioned,  the  suffrages  shall  be  for  N.  Hampshire  » 
Massach*;  &c.— 

'  The  word  "  would  "  <9  gubetituted  In  the  transcript  for  "  will." 
•  The  word  "  for  "  ia  here  Inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  JULY  6,  1787 


213 


Col.  Mason  said  the  case  of  new  States  was  not  unnoticed  in  the 
Committee;  but  it  was  thought  and  he  was  himself  decidedly  of 
opinion  that  if  they  made  a  part  of  the  Union,  they  ought  to  be 
subject  to  no  unfavorable  discriminations.  Obvious  considerations 
required  it 

Mt  Radolph  concurred  with  Col.*  Mi 

On '  Question  on  W  Rutlidges  moti 

Mas^  no.     Con!  no.     N.  Y.  no.     - 
Mary?  no.    V?  no.   N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay. 

Adji 


1. 

I. 

,,    no.     P»     J. 
'  'eo  not  ou  flcA>r.* 


Del.  no. 


Pbidat  JtJLY  6'?    m  Convention 

Sn  Gov!  MosRis  moved  to  commit  so  much  of  the  Report  as  relates 
to  "1  member  for  every  40,000  inhabitants"  His  view  was  that 
they  might  absolutely  fix  the  number  for  each  Stete  in  the  first 
instance;  leaving  the  Legislature  at  liberty  to  provide  for  changes  in 
the  relative  importance  of  the  States,  and  for  the  case  of  new 

States. 

MJ  Wilson  2^  the  motion;  but  with  a  view  of  leaving  the  Com- 
mittee under  no  implied  shackles. 

ilT  Gbosuu  apprehended  great  inconveniency  ♦  from  fixing  di- 
rectly the  number  of  Representatives  to  be  allowed  to  each  State.  He 
thought  the  number  of  Inhabitants  the  true  guide;  tho'  perhaps  some 
departure  might  be  expedient  from  the  fuU  proportion.  The  States 
also  would  vary  in  their  relative  extent  by  separations  of  parts  of 
the  largest  States.  A  part  of  Virgt  is  now  on  the  point  of  a  separa- 
tion. In  the  province  of  Maync  a  Convention  is  at  this  time  de- 
liberating on  a  separation  from  Mas".  In  such  events  the  number 
of  representatives  ought  certainly  to  be  reduced.  He  hoped  to  see 
all  the  States  made  small  by  proper  divisions,  instead  of  their  be- 
coming formidable  as  was  apprehended,  to  the  Small  States.  He 
conceived  that  let  the  Gen!»  Government  be  modified  as  it  might, 
there  would  be  a  constant  tendency  in  the  State  Govemm*?  to 


•  The  word  "  Mr."  is  subrtltuted  in  the  tranBcript  for  "  Col." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  i»  here  inserted  in  the  tranncri^t. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "South  Carolina,  aye-1;  Massachu- 
setts, Connecticut,  New  YorJt,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylyania,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
Virginia,  North  Carolina,  no— •;  Oeorgia  not  on  the  floor. 

•The  word  "inconveniency"  is  <£anged  to  "inconvenience"  in  the  tran- 

^'  The  word  "  Gen? "  is  omitted  In  the  transcript 


214      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

encroach  upon  it:  it  was  of  importance  therefore  that  the  extent  of 
the  States  sh"?  be  reduced  as  much  &  as  fast  as  possible.  The  stronger 
the  Gov^  shall  be  made  in  the  first  instance  the  more  easily  will 
these  divisions  be  effected;  as  it  will  be  of  less  consequence  m  the 
opinion  of  the  States  whether  they  be  of  great  or  small  extent 

M'  Gfrry  did  not  think  with  his  Colleague  that  the  large  States 
ought  to  be  cut  up.  This  policy  has  been  inculcated  by  the  middling 
and  smaller  States,  ungenerously  &  contrary  to  the  spirit  of  the  Con- 
federation. Ambitious  men  will  be  apt  to  solicit  needless  divisions, 
till  the  States  be  reduced  to  the  size  of  Counties.  If  this  policy 
should  still  actuate  the  small  States,  the  large  ones  cou  d  not  con- 
federate safely  with  them ;  but  would  be  obliged  to  consult  their  safety 
by  confederating  only  with  one  another.  He  favored  the  Commit";^"* 
and  thought  that  Representation  ought  to  be  m  the  Combined  ratio 
of  numbers  of  Inhabitants  and  of  wealth,  and  not  of  either  singly. 

W.  King  wished  the  clause  to  be  committed  chiefly  in  order  to 
detach  it  from  the  Report  with  which  it  had  no  connection      He 
thought  also  that  the  Ratio  of  Representation  proposed  could  not 
be  safely  feed,  since  in  a  century  &  a  half  our  computed  increase  of 
population  would  carry  the  number  of  representatives  to  an  enormous 
excess;  that  y!  number  of  inhabitants  was  not  the  P™P«  J^« 
of  ability  &  wealth;  that  property  was  the  primary  object  of  Society , 
and  that  in  fixing  a  ratio  this  ought  not  to»  be  excluded  from  the 
estimate.    With  regard  to  new  States,  he  observed  that  there  was 
something  peculiar  in  the  business  which  had  not  been  noticed.    T^e 
U  S  were  now  admitted  to  be  proprietors  of  the  Country  N  West 
of  the  Ohio.    Congr  by  one  of  their  ordinances  have  impoliticly  laid 
it  out  into  ten  States,  and  have  made  it  a  fundamental  article  of 
compact  with  those  who  may  become  settlers,  that  as  soon  as  the 
number  in  any  one  State  shall  equal  that  of  the  smallest  of  the 
13  original  States,  it  may  claim  admission  into  the  union.    Dela- 
ware  does  not  contain  it  is  computed  more  than  35,0(K)  souls,  and 
for  obvious  reasons  will  not  increase  much  for  a  considerable  time. 
It  is  possible  then  that  if  this  plan  be  persisted  in  by  Congf  10  new 
votes  may  be  added,  without  a  greater  addition  of  inhabitants  than 
are  represented  by  the  single  vote  of  Pen?    The  plan  as  it  respects 
one  of  the  new  States  is  already  irrevocable,  the  sale  of  the  lands 
having  commenced,  and  the  purchasers  &  settlers  will  immediately 
become  entitled  to  all  the  privileges  of  the  compact. 

Mt  Butler  agreed  to  the  Commitment  if  the  Committee  were  to 


I  xhe  word  "  to  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  JULY  6,  1787 


215 


be  left  at  liberty.  He  was  per  uaded  that  the  more  the  subject  was 
examined,  the  less  it  would  aj  pear  that  the  number  of  inhabitaats 
would  be  a  proper  rule  of  proportion.  If  there  were  no  other  objec- 
tion the  changeableness  of  the  standard  would  be  sufiScient.  He  con- 
o-rred  with  those  who  thought  some  balance  was  necessary  between 
tne  old  &  new  States.  He  contended  strenuously  that  property 
was  the  only  just  measure  of  representation.  This  was  the  great 
object  of  Govern':  the  great  cause  of  war;  the  great  means  of  carry- 
ing it  on. 

iP  PiNKNET  saw  no  good  reason  for  committing.  The  value  of 
land  had  been  found  on  full  investigation  to  be  an  impracticable 
rule.  The  contributions  of  revenue  including  imports  &  exports,  must 
be  too  changeable  in  their  amount;  too  difficult  to  be  adjusted;  and 
too  injurious  to  the  non-commercial  States.  The  number  of  inhabi- 
tants appeared  to  him  the  only  just  &  practicable  rule.  He  thought 
the  blacks  ought  to  stand  on  an  equality  with*  whites:  But  w^ 
agree  to  the  ratio  settled  by  Congl  He  contended  that  Congf 
had  no  right  under  the  articles  of  Confederation  to  authorize 
the  admission  of  new  States;  no  such  case  having  been  provided 

for. 

jn  Davy,  was  for  committing  the  clause  in  order  to  get  at  the 

merits  of  the  question  arising  on  the  Report.    He  seemed  to  think 

that  wealth  or  property  ought  to  be  represented  in  the  21  branch; 

and  numbers  in  the  ll*  branch. 

On  the  Motion  for  committing  as  made  by  Mt  6ov^  Morris. 

Ma.s«?  ay.     Con^  ay.     N.  Y.  no.     N.  J.  no.     P^  ay.     Del.  no. 

Ml  div*.    V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

The  membeiB  app*  by  Ballot  were  W  Govf  Morris,  M'.  Gorham 

MT  Randolph,  SK  Rutlidge,  M*.  King. 

Mr  Wilson  signified  that  his  view  in  agreeing  to  the  commitm^ 

was  that  the  Com*  might  consider  the  propriety  of  adopting  a  scale 

similar  to  that  established  by  the  Constitution  of  Mast?  which  w^ 

give  an  advantage  to  y*.  small  States  without  substantially  departing 

from  a  •  rule  of  proportion. 

W.  Wilson  &  W  Mason  moved  to  postpone  the  clause  relating 

to  money  bills  in  order  to  take  up  the  clause  relating,  to  an  equality 

of  votes  in  the  second  branch. 


'Thf  word  "the"  is  here  ln«erted  in  the  trunwnpt.  ,,.„_, 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  re»di:  " MaiMchusetts,  Connectlcttt,  Pem^jj" 
vanU,  Viririnia,  Nortli  Carolina.  South  Carolina.  Georgia,  aye— 7;  New  York, 
New  Jersey.  Delaware,  no— 3;  Maryland,  divided."  _,  „    » 

•  The  word  "  the  "  ii  aubstitnted  in  the  transcript  for  the  word     a. 


216      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


Mas'!  no.    Con^  no. 
V*  ay.    N.  C.  no. 


N.  Y.  ay.    N.  J.  ay. 
S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay. 


P^ 


On  the  question  * 
ay.    Del.  ay.    M?  ay        .    . 

The  clause  relating  to  equality  of  votes  being  under  consideration, 

Doc'.  Franklin  observed  that  this  question  could  not  be  properly 
put  by  itself,  the  Committee  having  reported  several  propositions  as 
mutual  conditions  of  each  other.  He  could  not  vote  for  it  if  sep- 
arately taken,  but  should  vote  for  the  whole  together. 

Col.  Mason  perceived  the  difficulty  &  suggested  a  reference  of 
the  rest  of  the  Report  to  y*  Committee  just  appointed,  that  the  whole 
might  be  brought  into  one  view. 

M'.  Randolph  disliked  yf  reference  to  that  Committee,  as  it  con- 
sisted of  members  from  States  opposed  to  the  wishes  of  the  smalles 
States,  and  could  not  therefore  be  acceptable  to  the  latter. 

yV  Martin  &  Mr  Jenifer  moved  to  postpone  the  clause  till  the 
Com',  last  appointed  should  report. 

MI  JIadison  observed  that  if  the  uncommitted  part  of  the  Report 
was  connected  with  the  part  just  committed,  it  ought  also  to  be 
committed;  if  not  connected,  it  need  not  be  postponed  till  report 
should  be  made. 

On  the  question  for  postponing  moved  by  Ml  Martin  &  Mf 
Jennifer  Con«  N.  J.  Del.  M"  Vf  Geo.,  ay» 

Pf  N.  C.  S.  C no" 

Mas.  N.  Y divided 

The  1"  clause  relating  to  the  originating  of  money  bills  was  then 

resumed. 

Mr  Govern^  Morris  was  opposed  to  a  restriction  of  this  right 
in  either  branch,  considered  merely  in  itself  and  as  unconnected  with 
the  point  of  representation  in  the  21  branch  It  will  disable  the  21 
branch  from  proposing  its  own  money  plans,  and  giving  the  people 
an  opportunity  of  judging  by  comparison  of  the  merits  of  those 
proposed  by  the  1!*  branch. 

W.  Wii£ON  could  see  nothing  like  a  concession  here  on  the  part  of 
the  smaller  States.  If  both  branches  were  to  say  yes  *  or  no,*  it  was 
of  little  consequence  which  should  say  yes  ♦  or  no  *  first,  which  last. 
If  either  was  indiscriminately  to  have  the  right  of  originating,  the 
reverse  of  the  Report,  would  he  thought  be  most  proper;  since  it 


'The  words  "of  portponement"  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript  and 
the  yote  reads:  "New  York,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware.  Maryland, 
Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8;   Massachusetti,  Connecticut,  North 

Carolina,  no — 3."  ,  .    ..     ^  .  j. 

•  The  figure  "  6  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  figure  "  3  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
•The  transcript  italicizes  the  words  "yes"  and  ''no." 


SESSION  OF  FRIDAY,  JULY  6,  1787 


217 


was  8  maxim  that  the  least  numerous  body  was  the  fittest  for 
deliberation;  the  most  numerous  for  decision.  He  observed  that  this 
discriminatiwi  had  been  transcribed  from  the  British  into  several 
American  constitutions.  But  he  was  persuaded  that  on  examination 
of  the  American  experiments  it  would  be  found  to  be  a  trifle  light 
as  air.  Nor  could  he  ever  discover  the  advantage  of  it  in  the  Parlia- 
mentary history  of  Q.  Britain.  He  hoped  if  there  was  any  advantage 
in  the  privilege,  that  it  would  be  pointed  out. 

MI  Williamson  thought  that  if  the  privilege  were  not  common 
to  both  branches  it  ought  rather  to  be  confined  to  the  21  as  the  bills 
in  that  case  would  be  more  narrowly  watched,  than  if  they  originated 
with  the  branch  having  most  of  the  popular  confidence. 

M'.  Mason.  The  consideration  which  weighed  with  the  Com- 
mittee was  that  the  1!'  branch  would  be  the  immediate  representatives 
of  the  people,  the  21  would  not.  Should  the  latter  have  the  power  of 
giving  away  the  people's  money,  they  might  soon  forget  the  source 
from  whence  they  received  it.  We  might  soon  have  an  aristocracy. 
He  had  been  much  concerned  at  the  principles  which  had  been  ad- 
vanced by  some  gentlemen,  but  had  the  satisfaction  to  find  they  did 
not  generally  prevail.  He  was  a  friend  to  proportional  representa- 
tion in  both  branches;  but  supposed  that  some  points  must  be  yielded 
for  the  sake  of  accomodation. 

M*.  Wilson.  If  he  had  proposed  that  the  21  branch  should  have 
an  independent  disposal  of  public  money,  the  observations  of  [Col 
Mason]  would  have  been  a  satisfactory  answer.  But  nothing  could 
be  farther  from  what  he  had  said.  His  question  was  how  is  the 
power  of  the  H*  branch  increased  or  that  of  the  2*  diminished  by 
giving  the  proposed  privilege  to  the  former!  Where  is  the  differ- 
ence, in  which  branch  it  begins  if  both  must  concur,  in  the  endt 

M*  Gerry  would  not  say  that  the  concession  was  a  sufficient  one 
on  the  part  of  the  small  States.  But  he  could  not  but  regard  it  in 
the  light  of  a  concession.  It  w1  make  it  a  constitutional  principle 
that  the  21  branch  were  not  possessed  of  the  Conflden<»  of  the 
people  in  money  matters,  which  w1  lessen  their  weight  &  influence. 
In  the  next  place  if  the  21  branch  were  dispossessed  of  the  privilege, 
they  w1  be  deprived  of  the  opportunity  which  their  continuance  in 
office  3  times  as  long  as  the  1!*  branch  would  give  them  of  makig 
three  successive  essays  in  favor  of  a  particular  point. 

MT  PiNKNEY  thought  it  evident  that  the  Concession  was  wholly 
on  one  side,  that  of  the  large  States,  the  privilege  of  originating 
money  bills  being  of  no  account. 

MJ  Gov^  MoRRB  had  waited  to  hear  the  good  effects  of  the  re- 


218      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

BtrictioQ.  As  to  the  alarm  sounded,  of  an  aristocracy,  his  creed  waa 
that  there  never  was,  nor  ever  will  be  a  civilized  Society  without  aa 
aristocracy.  His  endeavor  was  to  keep  it  as  much  as  possible  from 
doing  mischief.  The  restriction  if  it  has  any  real  operation  will 
deprive  us  of  the  services  of  the  2'J  branch  in  digesting  &  proposing 
money  bills  of  which  it  will  be  more  capable  than  the  1!'  branch. 
It  will  take  away  the  responsibility  of  the  2?  branch,  the  great 
security  for  good  behavior.  It  will  alwajrs  leave  a  plea,  as  to  an 
obnoxious  money  bill  that  it  was  disliked,  but  could  not  be  constitu- 
tionally amended ;  nor  safely  rejected.  It  will  be  a  dangerous  source 
of  disputes  between  the  two  Houses.  We  should  either  take  the 
British  Constitution  altogether  or  make  one  for  ourselves.  The 
Executive  there  has  dissolved  two  Houses  as  the  only  cure  for  such 
disputes.  Will  our  Executive  be  able  to  apply  such  a  remedy  t  Every 
law  directly  or  indirectly  takes  money  out  of  the  pockets  of  th« 
people.  Again  What  use  may  be  made  of  such  a  privilege  in  caaa 
of  great  emergency  T  Suppose  an  Enemy  at  the  door,  and  money 
instantly  &  absolutely  necessary  for  repelling  him,  may  not  the  popu- 
lar br  ■•  eh  avail  itself  of  this  duress,  to  extort  concessions  from  the 
Senate  destructive  of  the  Constitution  itself.  He  illustrated  thia 
danger  by  the  example  of  the  Long  Parliament's  exped*?  for  sub- 
verting the  H.  of  Lords ;  concluding  on  the  whole  that  the  restriction 
would  be  either  useless  or  pernicious. 

Docf  FB.VNSLIN  did  not  mean  to  go  into  a  justification  of  the 
Report ;  but  as  it  had  been  asked  what  would  be  the  use  of  restraining 
the  21  branch  from  medling  with  money  bills,  he  could  not  but 
remark  that  it  was  always  of  importance  that  the  people  should  know 
who  had  disposed  of  their  money,  &  how  it  had  been  disposed  of. 
It  was  a  maxim  that  those  who  feel,  can  best  judge.  This  end  would, 
he  thought,  be  best  attained,  if  money  affairs  were  to  be  confined  to 
the  immediate  representatives  of  the  people.  This  was  his  inducement 
to  concur  in  the  report.  As  to  the  danger  or  difficulty  that  might 
arise  from  a  negative  in  the  2* »  where  the  people  w1  not  be  propor- 
tionally represented,  it  might  eapi'y  be  got  over  by  declaring  that 
there  should  be  no  such  Negative:  or  if  that  will  not  do,  by  declaring 
that  there  shall  be  no  such  branch  at  all. 

Mf  Martin  said  that  it  was  understood  in  the  Committee  that 
the  difficulties  and  disputes  which  had  been  apprehended,  should  be 
guarded  ag?*  in  the  detailing  of  the  plan. 

M!  WOJBON.     The  difficulties  A  disputes  will  increase  with  the 


'  The  word  "  branch  "  is  here  innrted  in  the  tranicript. 


SESSION  OP  PBIDAY,  JULY  6,  1787 


219 


attempts  to  define  &  obviate  them.  Queen  Anne  wa»  obliged  to  du- 
solve  her  Parliam?  in  order  to  terminate  one  of  theae  obstinate  dis- 
putes between  the  two  Houses.  Had  it  not  been  for  the  mediation 
of  the  Crown,  no  one  can  say  what  the  result  would  have  been. 
The  point  is  still  sub  judke  in  England.  He  approved  of  the  prin- 
ciples laid  down  by  the  Hon^le  President »  [Doctr  Franklin]  his 
Colleague,  as  to  the  expediency  of  keeping  the  people  informed  of 
their  money  affairs.  But  thought  ♦hey  would  know  as  much,  and 
be  as  well  satisfied,  in  one  way  as  in  the  other. 

Qen!  Pinknits  was  astonished  that  this  point  should  have  been 
considered  as  a  concession.  He  remarked  that  the  restriction'  to 
money  bills  had  been  rejected  on  the  merits  singly  considered,  by  8 
States  ag!'  3.  and  that  the  very  States  which  now  called  it  a  con- 
cession, were  then  ag!'  it  as  nugatory  or  improper  in  itself. 

On  the  Question  whether  the  clause  relating  to  money  bills  in  the 
Report  of  the  Com?  consisting  of  a  member  from  each  State,  sh<! 
stand  as  part  of  the  Beport — 

Mass*!  divid"?  Con!  ay.  N.  Y.  divl  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  no.  Del.  ay. 
II?  ay.   V!  no.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  div^ ' 

A  Question  was  then  raised  whether  the  question  was  carried 
in  the  afBrmative:  there  being  but  5  ays  out  of  11.  States  present. 
The  words  of  the  rule  are*  (sci  May  28)." 

On  the  •  question :  Mas.  Con?  N.  J.  P?  Del.  Ml  N.  C.  S.  C.  Geo  ay ' 
N.  Y.  V» no» 

[In  several  preceding  instances  like  votes  had  siib  tUeTitio  been 
entered  as  decided  in  the  affirmative.] 

Adjourned 


■  In  the  trangcript  after  the  word  "  Pretldent "  reference  ii  made  to  a 
footnote  which  reads:  "He  was  at  that  time  Preaident  of  the  State  of  Penn- 
eylvania." 

•  The  word  "  aa  "  ie  here  inserted  in  the  tranecript. 

•In  the  tranicrlpt  the  vote  reade:  "Connecticut,  New  Jeriey,  Delaware, 
Maryland.  North  Carolina,  aye— 5;  Penninrlvania,  Virginia,  South  Carolina, 
no— 3;  MaMachueetti,  New  York,  Georgia,  divided." 

•  The  phrate  "  For  the  word*  of  the  Rule  "  ii  iubatituted  in  the  tranacript 
for  "  The  words  of  the  rule  are." 

■  A  Houee  to  do  buginess  shall  consist  of  the  Deputies  of  not  less  than  seven 
States ;  and  all  questions  shall  be  decided  by  the  greater  number  of  these  which 
shall  be  fully  represented:  but  a  less  number  than  seven  may  adjourn  from  day 
to  day.    See  ante,  p.  19. 

•  The  word  "  this  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  the." 
'  The  figure  "  9  "  is  here  added  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  figure  "  2  "  is  here  added  in  the  transcript. 


220      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  COXVENTION  OF  1787 


SATrBDAT,  July  7.   in  Convention 

» •'  Shall  the  clauM  allowing  each  State  one  vote  in  the  2*  branch, 
stand  88  part  of  the  Report"!  being  taken  up— 

M^  Gerby.  This  is  the  critical  question.  Ho  had  rather  agree 
to  it  than  have  no  accomodation.  A  Govern.'  short  of  a  proper 
national  plan,  if  generally  acceptable,  would  be  preferable  to  a 
proper  one  which  if  it  could  be  carried  at  all,  would  operate  on  dis- 
contented States.  He  thought  it  would  be  best  to  suspend  the' 
question    till    the    Comm?    yesterday    appointed,*    should    make 

report. 

MT  Shesman  Supposed  that  it  was  the  wish  of  every  one  that 
some  Gen?  Gov!  should  be  established.  An  equal  vote  in  the  21 
branch  would,  he  thought,  be  most  likely  to  give  it  the  necessary 
vigor.  The  small  States  have  more  vigor  in  their  Gov*!  than  the 
large  ones,  the  more  influence  therefore  the  large  ones  have,  the 
we8»:er  will  be  the  Gov?  In  the  large  States  it  will  be  most  difficult 
to  collect  the  real  &  fair  sense  of  the  people.  FaUacy  &  undue  influ- 
ence will  be  practiced  with  most  success:  and  improper  men  will  most 
easily  get  into  office.  If  they  vote  by  States  in  the  2/^  branch,  and 
each  State  has  an  equal  vote,  there  must  be  always  a  majority  of 
States  as  well  as  a  majority  of  the  people  on  the  side  of  public 
measures,  &  the  Gov?  will  have  decision  and  efficacy.  If  this  be  not 
the  case  in  the  21  branch  there  may  be  a  majority  of  the*  States  ag^ 
public  measures,  and  the  difficulty  of  compeUing  them  to  abide  by 
the  public  determination,  wiU  render  the  Government  feebler  than 
it  has  ever  yet  been. 

M:  Wilson  was  not  deficient  in  a  conciliating  temper,  but  firm- 
neas  was  sometimes  a  duty  of  higher  obligation.  Conciliation  was 
also  misapplied  in  this  instance.  It  was  pursued  here  rather  among 
the  Representatives,  than  among  the  Constituents;  and  it  w*  be  of 
little  consequence,  if  not  established  among  the  latter;  and  there  could 
be  little  hope  of  its  being  esUblished  among  them  if  the  foundation 
should  not  be  laid  in  justice  and  right. 

On»  Question  shall  the  words  stand  as  part  of  the  Report? 


■  The  words  "  The  question  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  this  "  is  Bubstituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  the.' 

•  The  words  "  yesterday  appointed  "  are  transposed  to  read     appointed  ye* 
terday  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JULY  7,  1787 


221 


M 


Man",  divl    Con»  ay.    N.  Y.  ay.    N.  J.  ay.     P?  no.    Del.  ty. 
ay.   V'no.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  no.   Geo.  div^' 
[Note,    Several  votes  were  given  here  in  the  affirmative  or  were 
^ivl  bee  use  another  final  quertion  wai  to  be  taken  on  the  whole 

report.] 

M'.  Gebbt  thought  it  would  be  proper  to  proceed  to  enumerate 
&  define  the  powers  to  be  vested  in  the  Qeni  Gov?  before  a  question 
on  the  report  should  be  taken,  as  to  the  rule  of  representation  in 
the  2fi  branch. 

M'.  Madison,  observed  that  it  w«  be  impossible  to  say  what  powers 
could  be  safely  &  properly  vested  in  the  Gov'  before  it  was  known, 
in  what  manner  the  States  were  to  be  represented  in  it.  He  was 
apprehensive  that  if  a  just  representation  were  not  the  basis  of  the 
GovJ  it  would  happen,  as  it  did  when  the  Articles  of  Confederation 
were  depending,  that  every  effectual  prerogative  would  be  with- 
drawn or  withheld,  and  the  New  Gov^  w?  be  rendered  as  impotent 
and  as  shortlived  as  the  old. 

MI  Pattebson  would  not  decide  whether  the  privilege  concerning 
money  bills  were  a  valuable  consideration  or  not:  But  he  considered 
the  mode  &  rule  of  representation  in  the  If  branch  as  fully  so.  and 
that  after  the  establishment  of  that  point,  the  small  States  would 
never  be  able  to  defend  themselves  without  an  equality  of  votes  in 
the  2*.  branch.  There  was  no  other  ground  of  accomodatiwi.  His 
resoluUon  was  fixt  He  would  meet  the  large  States  on  that  Ground 
and  no  other.  For  himself  he  should  vote  ag?  the  Beport,  because 
it  yielded  too  much. 

MT  Gov.  MoBBis.  He  had  no  resolution  unalterably  fixed  except 
to  do  what  should  finally  appear  to  him  right.  He  was  ag?  the 
Report  because  it  maintained  the  improper  Constitution  of  the  2? 
branch.  It  made  it  another  Congress,  ..  mere  whisp  of  straw.  It 
had  been  si  [by  Mr  Gerry]  that  the  new  Govern^  would  be  partly 
national,  partiy  federal;  that  it  ought  in  the  first  quality  to  pro- 
teot  individuals;  in  the  second,  the  States.  But  in  what  quaUty 
was  it  to  protect  the  aggregate  interest  of  the  whole.  Among  the 
many  provisions  which  had  been  urged,  he  had  seen  none  for  sup- 
porting the  dignity  and  splendor  of  the  American  Empire.  It  had 
been  one  of  our  greatest  misfortunes  that  the  great  objects  of  the 
nation  had  been  sacrificed  constantly  to  local  views;  in  like  manner 
as  the  general  interests  of  States  had  been  sacrificed  to  those  of 

•In  the  tnuucript  the  vote  rend*:  "Connecticut,  New  Vork,  New  Jener, 
Delaware,  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  aye— «;  Pennaylvanla,  Virginia,  South 
Carolina,  no— 3;  Maesachuaetta,  Georgia,  divided." 


222     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

the  Countic    Wh.*  i.  to  be  the  check  in  the  Senatet  none;  wile- 
it  be  to  keep  the  majority  of  the  people  from  mjunng  particukr 
Sutes.    But  particular  SUte.  ought  to  be  injured  for  the  aake  of  a 
majority  of  ?he  people,  in  caae  their  conduct  .hould  jmm,  it 
SuppoM  they  .hould  in.i.t  on  claim,  eyidently  unjurt,  "dpuijue 
thm  in  a  manner  detrimental  to  the  whole  bod^   f  "P^**    S^ 
riiould  give  themaelvea  up  to  foreign  influence.    Ought  Jiey  to  be 
protected  in  roch  ca«».    They  were  originally  nothing  mc  c  than 
colonial    corporation..      On    the    declaration    of    Independence,    a 
S>vemm'  w«  to  be  formed.    The  «nall  State,  aware  of  the  nec^ 
tttv  of  preventing  anarchy,  and  taking  advantage  of  the  moment, 
Si,iSd'f^m  the'large  one.  an  equality  of  vote..    Standing  now  on 
that  ground,  they  demand  under  the  new  «y«tem  greater  right,  a. 
m^  "^    heir  fellow  Citizen,  of  the  large  Stat«.    The  proper 
SJ^er  to  them  i.  that  the  wme  nece«ity  of  which  they  formerly 
;^  ivLSge,  doe.  not  now  exi.t.  and  that  the  large  State,  are  at 
^rty  nTwTo  consider  what  i.  right,  rather  than  what  may  be 
eSent     We  must  have  an  efficient  Gov«  and  if  there  be  an 
efficacy  in  the  local  Gov-  the  former  i.  impo«iible.    Gemany  alone 
p^Te.  ft.    Notwithrtanding  thei^  common  diet,  notwithrtandmg  the 
^"at  prerogative,  of  the  Emper.r  ^  head  of  the  ^^^"\^^^}^ 
Zst  re«,urc^.  a.  «.vereign  of  L^  particular  dominion.,  no  union 
L  maint«ned:  foreign  influence  dirturbs  every  ^nte^^^^f '«"; 
&  there  i-  no  energy  whatever  in  the  general  ^"^^^'"L^^J'^lf'S 
Thi  proceedt    From  the  energy  of  the  local  *°t^°"*>f ''"»  '^. 
beine  coneidered  of  more  conaeqnence  to  support  the  Pnnce  of 
S  ta^  the  Happiness  of  the  people  of  Germany.    Do  Oentiemen 
wiir£  to  be  y  caw  here.    Good  God,  Sir,  i.  it  powible  they 
:^Tdelude  th'^nTve..    What  if  all  the  Charters  &  Coi^^u- 
til  of  the  States  were  thrown  into  the  fire,  and  all  their  dema- 
go^es  into  the  ocean.    What  would  it  be  to  the  l^appmess  of 
Erica.    And  will  not  thU  be  the  case  here  if  we  P^«°«.f^«.*"^, 
^  w"  1  business  lies.    We  shall  eatcblish  an  Aulic  Councilwatl^ut 
^Emperor  to  execute  it.  decrees.    The  same  ";;«>™^f .^J:''^ 
Site  tie  people  here,  unite  them  in  Germany.    '^'^  ^'^'l 
common  language,  a  common  law,  common  usages  ,««d  "•nneni  and 
rrmmon  Surest  in  being  united;  yet  their  local  Jy^diction. 
U^y  every  tie.    The  case  was  the  same  in  the  Grecian  Sta^.    T^ 
l^tek  Netherlands  are  at  this  time  torn  in  factions     With  the«^ 
examples  before  our  eyes  shall  we  form  establishments  which  murt 
neee«arily  produce  the  same  effects.    It  is  of  no  '^^^^^'^l'^^. 
whTdLtrict*  the  21  branch  shall  be  drawn,  if  it  be  so  constituted 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JULY  9,  1787 

u  to  yield  an  Mylum  ag!*  thcM  evila.  As  it  is  now  oonstitated  he 
must  be  sgl*  its  being  drawn  from  the  States  in  eqoal  portions.  Bat 
shall  he  was  *  ready  to  join  in  devising  such  an  amendment  of  the 
plan,  as  will  be  most  likely  to  secore  oar  liberty  k  happiness. 

W  Shxbman  a  Ml  EunwonH  moved  to  postpone  the  Question 
on  the  Report  from  the  Committee  of  a  member  from  each  State,  in 
order  to  wait  for  the  Report  from  the  C!om*.  of  5  last  appointed. 

Mas'!  ay.  Con*,  vy.  N.Y.  no.  N.J.  ay.  Kay.  Del.  ay.  Mary- 
land ay.    V?  no.    N.  0.  no.    S.  C.  na    Geo.  no.» 

Adj4 


HONDAT  JULT  9^     IN  CONTINTION 

Mr  Daziiel  Carroll  from  Maryland  took  his  Seat. 

M!  Qov^  MoRBis  delivered  a  report  from  the  Com?  of  5  members 
to  whom  was  committed  the  clause  in  the  Report  of  the  ComT  con- 
sisting of  a  member  from  each  State,  stating  the  proper  ratio  of 
RcpresenUtives  in  the  1!*  branch,  to  be  as  1  to  every  40,000  inhabi- 
tants, as  follows  viz 

"The  Committee  to  whom  was  referred  the  If  clause  of  the 
1?  proposition  reported  from  the  grand  Committee,  beg  leave  to 
report 

I.«  that  in  the  1?  meeting  of  the  Legislature  the  1!»  branch  thereof 
consist  of  56.  members  of  which  Number,  N.  Hamshire  shall  have  2. 
MasBl  7.  R.  I*  1.  Con?  4.  N.  Y.  5.  N.  J.  3.  P*  8.  DeL  1.  M"?  4.  V?  9. 
N.  C.  5.  S.  C.  5.  Geo.  2.—  ^,      , 

II.*  But  aa  the  present  situation  of  the  States  may  prttbably  alter 
as  well  in  point  of  wealth  as  in  the  number  of  their  inhabitants, 
that  the  Legislature  be  auUiorized  from  time  to  time  to  augment  y? 
number  of  Representatives.  And  in  case  any  of  the  States  shall  here- 
after be  divided,  or  any  two  or  more  States  united,  or  any  new  States 
created  within  the  limits  of  the  United  States,  the  Legislature  shall 
possess  authority  to  regulate  the  number  of  Representatives  in  any 
of  the  foregoing  cases,  upon  the  principles  of  their  wealth  and  namber 
of  inhabitants." 

M^  Shebman  wished  to  know  on  what  principles  or  calculations 
the  Report  was  founded.    It  did  not  appear  to  correspond  with  any 


■The  words  "ihall  be"  are  rabttitutcd  in  the  transeript  for  "riukll  he 
was." 

■  In  the  truMcript  the  Tote  readt:  "  MsmehoMtts,  Conneetient,  New 
Jertej,  PeniuylnuiU,  DeUware,  Maryland,  aye— «;  New  York,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina.  Oeorcia,  no— 6." 

'  The  Roman  numeraU  "  I "  and  "  II "  are  omitted  in  the  trsiueript. 


isr. 


224     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

role  of  DOffiben,  or  of  any  reqakitiou  hitherto  adopted  bjr  Cong! 

Mr  OOKHAM.  Some  proTtalon  of  thto  eort  wm  neccttwry  in  the 
ontMt  The  number  of  bUeki  A  whitee  with  tome  regard  to  eup- 
poied  wealth  wm  the  general  guide  Practi«ma  could  not  be  oheenred. 
The  Legiir  ia  to  make  alterationa  from  time  to  time  aa  juatice  A 
propriety  may  require.  Two  objeotiwja  preraUed  ag?  the  rate »  of 
1  member  for  every  40,000.  inh"?  The  I*,  wae  that  the  Repnwentation 
would  ioon  be  too  numeroue:  the  21  that  the  Weatf  SUtea  who  may 
have  a  different  intereit,  might  if  admitted  on  that  principle  by 
degreea,  outvote  the  Atlantic.  Both  theae  objectiona  are  removinL 
The  number  will  be  email  in  the  flrrt  inatancc  and  may  be  i  mtinued 
bo;  and  the  Atlantic  SUtee  having  y?  Gov}  in  their  own  handii,  may 
take  care  of  their  own  intereat,  by  dealing  out  the  right  of  Rep- 
renentation  in  aafe  proportiona  to  the  Wettem  SUtea.  Theae  were 
the  views  of  the  Committee. 

W  L  Mabtin  wiahed  to  know  whether  the  Com?  were  guided  in 
the  ratio,  by  the  wealth  or  number  of  inhabitanta,  of  the  States,  or 
by  •  both ;  noting  its  variations  from  former  apportionmenta  by  Cong? 

Mr  Oov^  MoRBis  &  M»  RoTLrooB  moved  to  postpone  the  1?  p  a- 
graph  relating  to  the  number  of  memben  to  be  allowed  each  Slate 
in  the  first  instance,  and  to  take  up  the  2*  paragraph  authorixing  the 
Legisir*  to  alter  the  number  from  time  to  time  according  to  wealth 
&  inhabitants.    The  motion  waa  agreed  to  nem.  eon 

On »  Question  on  the  2*  parag^  taken  without  any  debate 

Maa»!  »y.  Con!  ay.  N.  T.  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay. 
M?ay.   V»ay.   N.  C.  ay.   8.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.« 

M'.  Sbbm AN  moved  to  refer  the  1'.'  part  apportioning  the  Rep- 
resentatives, to  a  Comm?  of  a  member  from  each  State. 

W  Gov?  MoRRiB  seconded  the  motion;  obaerving  that  thia  wai 
the  only  case  in  which  such  Committees  were  useful. 

W.  WnjJAMaoN.  thought  it  would  be  necessary  to  return  to  the 
rule  of  numbers,  but  that  the  Western  States  stood  on  different  foot- 
ing. If  their  property  shall  •  be  rated  as  high  aa  that  of  the  Atlantic 
States,  then  their  representation  ought  to  hold  a  like  proportion. 
Otherwise  if  their  property  was  not  to  be  equally  rated. 

IV  Gov'.  Morris.    The  Report  is  little  more  than  a  guess.    Wealth 


» The  word  "  rule  "  U  lubatitutcd  in  th«  tnnicript  for  "  rmte." 

•  The  word  "  bjr "  in  omitted  In  the  trmnicrlpt. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  U  here  iiuerted  ill  the  trantcript. 

•In  the  tntnucript  the  vote  reiwl*:  " M«M«phu»ett»,  Connecticut,  FemifTl- 
T«ni«,  Delawmre,  Maryland,  VirglnU.  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina.  Ocorgia, 
aye— 9;  New  York,  New  Jer«ey,  n<v— 2."  „  .^  ,,  „ 

•  The  word  "  ihould  "  is  »ub»tituted  in  the  transcnpt  for     ahall. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JULY  9,  1787 


225 


wu  not  kltoffether  diirr>g«rded  bjr  the  Com*  Wltere  it  wm  appar- 
ently in  faTor  of  onf  State,  wIk  *  n?*  were  euperior  to  the  namben 
of  another,  by  a  fraction  only,  a  member  eitraordinary  waa  allowed 
to  the  former:  and  ao  rice  vena.  The  Committee  meant  little  more 
than  to  bring  the  matter  to  a  point  for  the  oonaideration  of  the 
Houae. 

If!  Rkid  aiked  why  Oeorg^  waa  allowed  2  membera,  when  her 
number  of  inhabitanta  had  atood  below  that  of  Delaware. 

tip  GoTf  Itoaus.  Such  ia  the  rapidity  of  the  popalatioa  of  that 
State,  that  before  the  plan  takea  effect,  it  will  probably  be  entitled  to  2 
Bepreaentativea 

HT  Bandolpr.  dialiked  the  report  of  the  Com?  bat  had  been  on* 
willing  to  object  to  it.  He  waa  apprehenaive  that  aa  the  number  waa 
not  to  be  changed  till  the  Nat'  Legielatnre  ihoald  pleaae,  a  pretext 
would  r  jTer  be  wanting  to  poetpone  alterationa,  and  keep  the  power 
in  the  handa  of  thoae  poaaeaKd  of  it  He  waa  in  favor  of  the 
cominitm!  to  a  member  from  each  State 

M?  PArmaoN  coniidered  the  propoaed  eetimate  for  the  fatare 
according  to  the  Combined  mle*  of  nnmbera  and  wealth,  aa  too 
vague.  For  thia  reaaon  N.  Jersey  waa  ag!*  it.  He  eonld  regard 
negroea '  alavea  in  no  light  bat  aa  property.  They  are  no  free  agenta, 
have  no  peraonal  liberty,  no  faculty  of  acquiring  property,  but  on 
the  contrary  are  themaelvea  property,  ft  like  other  property  entirely 
at  the  will  of  the  Maater.  Has  a  man  in  Virgf  a  nouber  of  votea 
in  proportion  to  the  number  o'  '  Is  alaveat  And  if  Negroes  are  not 
represented  in  the  Statea  to  wh.ch  they  belong,  why  should  they  be 
represented  in  the  Qen!  Qovi  What  ia  the  true  principle  of  Rep- 
resentation t  It  is  an  expedient  by  which  an  aaaembly  of  certain 
individt  choaen  by  the  people  is  substituted  in  place  of  the  incon- 
venient meeting  of  the  people  themadvea.  If  such  a  meeting  of  :!  a 
people  was  actually  to  take  place,  would  the  davea  votet  They 
would  not.  Why  then  shI  they  be  represented.  He  waa  also  ag!* 
such  an  indirect  encouragem!  of  the  slave  trade;  obaerving  that 
Cong*,  in  their  act  relating  to  the  change  of  the  8  art:  of  Confed? 
had  been  ashamed  to  use  the  term  "  slavea  "  ft  had  substituted  a 
description. 

M'  BIadisom,  reminded  W  Patterson  that  hia  doctrine  of  Rep- 
resentation which  waa  in  its  principle  the  genuine  one,  must  for  ever 
silence  the  pretensions  of  the  small  Statea  to  an  equality  of  votes  with 
the  large  ones.    They  ought  to  vote  in  the  same  proportion  in  which 

'  The  tranfcript  men  tb«  word  "  rule  "  ia  tlie  plur»1. 

'  The  transcript  bscs  t" ,  word  "  ncgroc*  "  in  tie  singnlar. 


226     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

their  citiren.  wodd  do.  if  the  people  of  11  «*«  ^tf**  J«* J^' 
lertiyely  met    He  .uggerted  a>  a  proper  gronnd  of  wmpromue, 

r  hSr  number  of  free  inhabitant.;  and  in  the  5K  which  had  for 
one  of  it^^^  object,  the  gnardianship  of  property,  ««.rding 

to  the  whole  number,  including  davea.  -««.-aiM 

m  BcTLEB  urged  warmly  the  jurtice  &  necewty  of  regarding 

wealth  in  the  apportionment  of  B«P««°t**^5°-  .  ^„  j.^^^  _,  .^e 
M?  KiKO  had  always  expected  that  a.  the  South«n  S****"  "»  *»« 

«.hL.  thev  would  not  league  thenudve.  with  the  North?  unle.. 

I^riU^t  we^paid  to  S  superior  wealth.   If  ti.e  latter  e^ 

ZiSential  dLrtinction.  in  Commerce  &  other  advantage,  which 
SrSTrive  from  the  connection  they  mmrt  not  expect  to  receive 
Sm^thout  allowing  some  advantage,  in  return.  Elev^  out  of 
S Tf  S  SUte.  had  ireed  to  comdder  Slav«  in  th.  .PPort^^* 
of  taxation;  and  taxation  and  Repre«ntot.on  o^K***  *« /o  *ogrthei^ 
oTthe  question  for  committing  the  flrrt  paragraph  of  the  Eeport 

to  a  member  from  each  State.  t%  i     „    -wa  ••» 

Mas'!  ay.  Con!  ay.  N.  Y.  na  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  DeL  ay.  M-  ay. 

V  av     N.  C.  ay.    S.  G.  no.    Geo.  ay.*  ,^  „  ^     «, 

The  Com?  i^pointed  were  Mr  King.  W  Shernum.  IP.  Tates^ 

BrJriy.  li  GoJ^Morri..  W  Beed,  W  Carrol,  W  Maduon,  MJ  Wil- 

liamMn,  W  Butledge,  Mr  Hourton. 

Adj4 


TrosDAT.  JtJLT  10   In  Convkntiow 

IP.  Kmo  reported  from  the  Com?  yerterday  "PPoift^-ti;*^' 
SUtoi  at  the  1-  meeting  of  the  General  ^^^"^''^^^JZ- 
re«mted  by  65  member.  «  t^e^oUowing  P™^'^"™.  J>  '^\''-^ri 
Bhire  by  3.  Ma.«!  8.  B.  Is*  1.  Con?  5.  N.  Y.  6.  N.  J.  4.  K  8.  Vtl. 
M"?  6.    V'  10.    N.  C.  5.    S.  C.  5.    Georgia  3. 

m  RuTLiDGE  moved  that  N.  Hampshire  be  reduced  from  3  to  2. 
members.  Her  number,  did  not  entitie  her  to  3  and  it  wa.  a  poor 
State. 

Gen?  PiNKNCT  second,  the  motion.  ,oAAnft  Tnl,«h«i 

W  KiNO.  N.  Hamshire  has  probably  more  than  120,000  Inhab. 
and  has  an  extensive  Country  of  tolerable  fertiUty.     It.  inhabta 

—      ..      ♦,.„„,!„♦    the   vote   r«*d»!    "  MasiiMlmiietU,   Connecticut,    New 

Jer.:v%^n:.4"nu"''U^r:rM.Xd,Virgi^^  North  CroHn^  G«.rgU. 
,ye-^9;  New  York,  South  Cwolin*.  no-S- 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JULY  10,  1787 


227 


thenfon  may*  be  expected  to  increaae  fait  He  remarked  that  the 
fonr  Eastern  States  having  800,000  aooli,  hare  H  fewer  repreaenta- 
tives  than  the  fonr  Soathem  States,  having  not  more  than  700,000 
Bools  rating  the  blacks,  as  5  for  3.  The  Eastern  people  will  advert 
to  these  eireomstances,  and  be  dissatisfied.  He  believed  them  to  be 
very  desirous  of  uniting  with  their  Soathem  brethren,  bnt  did  not 
think  it  pradent  to  rely  so  far  on  that  disposition  as  to  sabjeet  them 
to  any  gross  inequality.  He  was  folly  convinced  that  the  qnestion 
cooceming  a  difference  of  interests  did  not  lie  where  it  aad  hitherto 
been  disenssed,  between  the  great  &  small  States;  hm  between  the 
Sonthem  ft  Eastern.  For  this  reason  he  had  been  ready  to  yield 
something  in  the  proportion  of  representatives  for  the  security  of 
the  Southern.  No  principle  would  justify  the  giving  them  a  majority. 
They  were  brought  as  near  an  equality  as  waa  possible.  He  was  not 
averse  to  giving  them  a  still  greater  security,  bnt  did  not  see  how 
it  could  be  done. 

Gen!  Pimkmr.  The  Report  before  it  was  committed  waa  more 
favorable  to  the  S.  States  than  aa  it  now  stands.  If  they  are  to  form 
so  ccnudderable  a  minority,  and  the  regulation  of  trade  is  to  be  given 
to  the  Gen!  Government,  they  will  be  nothing  more  than  overseers  for 
the  Northern  States.  He  did  not  expect  the  S.  States  to  be  raised  to 
a  majority  of  representatives,  but  wiahed  them  to  have  something 
like  an  equality.  At  present  by  the  alterations  of  the  Com?  in  favor 
of  the  N.  States  thqr  are  renuived  farther  from  it  than  they  were 
before.  One  member  had  indeed*  been  added  to  Virg?  which  he 
waa  glad  of  aa  he  conaidered  her  as  •  Sonthem  State.  He  waa  glad 
also  that  the  members  of  Georgia  were  increaaed. 

W  WnuAitaoN  waa  not  for  reducing  N.  Hamshire  from  3  to  2. 
but  for  reducing  some  othms.  The  South?  Interest  must  be  ex- 
tremely endangered  by  the  present  arrangement  The  North?  Statea 
are  to  have  a  majority  in  the  first  instance  and  the  meana  of  perpetu- 
ating  it 

Mt  Dayton  observed  that  the  line  between  the  *  North?  ft  Southern 
interest  had  been  improperiy  drawn :  that  F?  waa  the  dividing  State, 
there  being  six  on  each  side  of  her. 

Gen.'  PnncNXT  urged  the  reduction,  dwelt  on  the  snperror  wealth 
of  the  Soathem  Statea,  and  insisted  on  its  having  ita  due  weight  in 
the  Government 

'  The  words  "  thenfon  mkj  "  an  tnuupoaed  to  nad  "  taaj  thenfon "  ia 
the  tranieript. 

>The  woidt  "had  indeed"  an  tnuupoaed  to  nad  "iadaid  had"  in  the 
tranieript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  ia  omitted  in  the  tranieript. 


228      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

m  Govt  MoBRis  regretted  the  turn  of  the  debate.  The  SUtea  he 
found  had  many  B^reaentatiTet  on  the  floor.  Pew  he  f eara  ^  were  to 
be  deemed  the  BepreMnUtives  of  America.  He  thought  the  South- 
ern States  have  by  the  report  more  than  their  ahare  of  repreaentation. 
Property  ought  to  have  its  weight,  but  not  all  the  weight  If  the 
South?  SUtea  are  to  supply  money.  The  North?  Statea  are  to  spill 
their  blood.  Besides,  the  probable  Bevenue  to  be  expected  from  the 
S.  Statea  haa  been  greatly  overrated.  He  was  ag^  reducing  N. 
Hamahire. 

Mf  Bandoiph  waa  oppoaed  to  a  reduction  of  N.  Hamahire,  not 
becauae  she  had  a  fall  title  to  three  members:  but  becauae  it  waa 
in  hia  contemplation  1.*  to  make  it  the  duty  instead  of  leaving  it 
in » the  diacretion  of  the  Legialature  to  regulate  the  representation  by 
a  periodical  census.  2.*  to  require  more  than  a  bare  majority  of 
votes  in  the  Legialature  in  certain  caaea,  &  particularly  in  commercial 
cases. 

On  the  question  for  reducing  N.  Hamshire  from  3  to  2  Bep- 
resent;  it  passed  in  the  negative 

Masf  no.  Con.*  no.  N.  J.  no.  K  no.  Del.  no.  M*  no.  Vf  no. 
N.  C.  ay.»    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.*  ♦ 

Gen.'  PmKNXT  and  ilR  Alex'.  Uabtik  moved  that  6  Rep!  instead 
of  5  be  allowed  to  N.  Carolina 

On  the  Question,  it  passed  in  the  negative. 

Mas«f  no.  Conl  no.  N.  J.  no.  PJ  no.  Del.  no.  M^  no.  V*  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Gea'  PiNENET  &  Ml  BuTLSB  made  the  asme  motion  in  favor  of 
S.  Carolina. 

On  the  Question  it  passed  in  the  negative 

Mas'!  no.  Con.*  no.  N.  Y.  no  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  DeL  ay.  IW  no.  Vi 
no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.« 

Gen}  PiMKNST  &  Ml  Housrmr  moved  that  Georgia  be  allowed  4 

*  In  the  printed  Journal    N.  C.  no.    Gcorgls  ay 


'  The  word  "  feared  "  is  lubrtitnted  in  the  trmnieript  for  "  fean." 

•  The  figuret  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  flrtt''  and  "  »econdly "  in  tlw 
transcript. 

•  The  word  "  to"  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  in." 

« In  the  transcript  the  Tote  reads:  "  North  Carolina,*  South  Carolina,  aye 
—2;  Massachusetts,  &)nnecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
Virginia,  Georgia,*  no— 8."  „      .     „      ., 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye— 3;  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Dela- 
ware, Maryland,  Virginia,  no — 7." 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Delaware.  North  Carolina,  South  Caro- 
lina, Georgia,  aye — I;  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  York,  Nsw  Jersey, 
Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  no— 7." 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JULY  10,  1787 


229 


instead  of  3  Bep*.  urging  the  unexampled  celerity  of  it»  population. 
On  the  Question,  it  paaMd  in  the  Negative 

Mas?  no.    C3on^  no.   N.  Y  no   N.  J.  no.    Pt  no.   DeL  no.   M«  no. 
V?ay.   N.  Cay.   S.  Cay.   Geo. ay.* 

M'.  Madbon,  moved  that  the  number  allowed  to  each  State  be 
doubled.  A  majority  of  a  Quorum  of  65  members,  was  too  smaU  a 
number  to  to  represent  the  whole  inhabitanta  of  tiie  U.  SUtes;  Th^ 
would  not  possess  enough  of  the  confidence  of  tiie  people,  and  w". 
be  too  sparsely  taken  from  the  people,  to  bring  with  tiiem  all  the 
local  information  which  would  be  f requentiy  wanted.  Double  Uie 
number  will  not  be  too  great,  even  witii  tiie  future  additions  from 
New  SUtes.  The  additional  expenoe  was  too  inconsiderable  to  be 
regarded  in  so  important  a  case.  And  as  far  aa  the  augmentation 
might  be  unpopular  on  that  score,  tiie  objection  waa  overbalanced 
by  its  effect  on  the  hopes  of  a  greater  number  of  tiie  popular  Candi- 

IK  Elbkwobth  urged  tiie  objection  of  expence,  ft  tiiat  tiie  greater 
tiie  number,  tiie  more  slowly  would  tiie  business  proceed;  and  the 
less  probably  be  decided  aa  it  ought,  at  last.  He  tiiought  tiie  number 
of  Representiitives  too  great  in  most  of  tiie  State  I^tures:  and 
tiiat  a  large  number  waa  leas  necessary  in  tiie  Gea«  Legislature  tiian 
in  tiiose  of  tiie  Stiite8,-aa  ita  buainess  would  relate  to  a  few  great, 

national  Objects  only.  .,    -.  *  j  .*    «« 

Mr  Sherman  would  have  preferred  50  to  65.  The  great  distance 
tiiey  wiU  have  to  travel  will  render  tiieir  attendance  precarious  and 
will  make  it  difficult  to  prevaU  on  a  sufficient  number  of  fit  men 
to  undertake  tiie  service.  He  observed  tiiat  the  expected  increase 
from  New  States  also  e-jserved  consideration. 

W.  Gbbby  was  for  increasing  the  number  beyond  65.  The  larger 
tiie  number,  the  less  tiie  danger  of  tiieir  being  corrupted.  The  people 
are  accustomed  to  &  fond  of  a  numerous  representiition,  and  will 
comdder  their  rights  as  better  seeured  by  it  The  danger  of  excess 
in  tiie  number  may  be  guarded  ag?  by  fixing  a  point  withm  which 
the  number  shall  always  be  kept 

Col  Mason  admitted  tiiat  tiie  objection  drawn  from  the  con- 
sideration  of  expence,  had  weight  botii  in  itself ,  and  aa  tiie  people 
might  be  affected  by  it.  But  he  thought  it  outweighed  by  the  objec 
tions  ag?  the  smaUness  of  tiie  number.  38,  wiU  he  «PPO«f.  "  ^8 
a  majority  of  65,  form  a  quorum.   20  wiU  be  a  majority  of  38.    This 

Una.   GeoTgU.   mye-i;    M»MM!ii»tt«.   Ooimwitlcut,   N.w  York.   N«w   Jeney, 
Penntylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  no— 7. 


230     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

was  certainly  too  small  a  number  to  make  laws  for  America.  They 
would  neither  bring  with  them  all  the  necessary  information  relative 
to  various  local  interests,  nor  possess  the  necessary  confidence  of  the 
people.  After  doubling  the  number,  the  laws  might  still  be  made 
by  so  few  as  almost  to  be  objectioniible  on  that  account. 

MT  Read  was  in  favor  of  the  Motion.  Two  of  the  States  [Del. 
&  B.  I.]  would  have  but  a  single  member  if  the  aggregate  number 
should  remain  at  65.  and  in  case  of  accident  to  either  of  these  one 
State  w1  have  no  representative  present  to  give  explanations  or  in- 
formations of  its  interests  or  wishes.  The  people  would  not  place 
their  confidence  in  so  small  a  number.  He  hoped  the  objects  of  the 
Oea'  Qoyi  would  be  much  more  numerous  than  seemed  to  be  expected 
by  some  gentlemen,  and  that  they  would  become  more  &  more  so. 
As  to  ^  New  States  the  highest  number  of  Bep!  for  the  ii^ole  might  be 
limited,  and  all  danger  of  excess  thereby  prevented. 

M'.  RuTUDOE  opposed  the  motion.  The  Representatives  were  too 
numerous  in  all  the  States.  The  full  number  allotted  to  the  States 
may  be  expected  to  attend  &  the  lowest  possible  quorum  shI  not 
therefore  be  considered.  The  interests  of  their  Constituents  will 
urge  their  attendance  too  strongly  for  it  to  be  omitted :  and  he  sup- 
posed the  Qen!  Legislature  would  not  sit  more  than  6  or  8  weeks 
in  the  year. 

On  the  Question  for  doubling  the  number,  it  passed  in  the 
negative. 

Mas*!  no.  Con?  no.  N.  T.  no.  N.  J.  no.  P«  no.  Del.  ay. 
M*  no.    V»  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  the  apportionment  of  Rep!  u 
amended  by  the  last  committee,  it  passed  in  the  afSrmative 

Mas.  ay.  Con?  ay.  N.  Y.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  PT  ay.  Del.  ay.  M"?  ay. 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

M;  Broom  gave  notice  to  the  House  that  he  had  concurred  with 
a  reserve  to  himself  of  an  intention  to  claim  for  his  State  an  equal 
voice  in  the  2*  branch:  which  he  thought  could  not  be  denied  after 
this  concession  of  the  small  States  as  to  the  first  branch. 

W  Randolph  moved  as  an  amendment  to  the  report  of  the 
Comm*.  of  five  "  that  in  order  to  ascertain  the  alterations  in  the 


*  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  Inierted  In  the  traiucript. 

•In  the  tnnicript  the  vote  reads:  "Delaware,  Virginia,  aye— 2;  — t— 
ehniettg,  Connecticut.  New  York,  New  Jeraev,  PennaylTania,  Maryland.  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— «." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  York 
New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  CaroUsa, 
aye — 0;  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 2." 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JXJLT  11,  1787  281 

population  &  wealth  of  the  several  Statea  the  Legialature  ihould  be 
required  to  cause  a  census,  and  estimate  to  be  taken  within  one 
year  after  its  first  meeting;  and  every  yeait  there^r-«nd 

that  the  Legisl'?  arrange  the  Representation  accordingly." 

IP  Govt  MoBMS  opposed  it  as  fettering  the  Legislature  too  much. 
Advantage  may  be  taken  of  it  in  time  of  war  or  the  apprehension  of 
it,  by  new  SUtes  to  extort  particular  favors.    If  the  mode  was  to 
be  fixed  for  taking  a  census,  it  might  certainly  be  extremely  mcon- 
venient:  if  unflxt  the  LegisUture  may  uae  such  a  mode  as  wm 
defeat  the  object :  and  perpetuate  the  inequality.    He  was  always  agf 
such  Shackles  on  the  Legisl"?    They  had  been  found  very  permcions 
in  most  of  the  State  Constitutions.    He  dwelt  much  on  the  danger  of 
throwing  such  a  preponderancy »  into  the  Western  Scale,  suggesting 
that  in  time  the  Western  people  w1  outnumber  the  Atiantic  States. 
He  wished  therefore  to  put  it  in  the  power  of  the  latter  to  keep  a 
majority  of  votes  in  their  ^s^n  hands.   It  was  objected  he  said  that  if 
the  LegiaK  are  left  at  liberty,  they  will  never  readjust  the  Bep- 
resentation.   He  admitted  that  this  was  possible ;  but  he  did  not  thjak 
it  probable  unless  the  reasons  ag?  a  revision  of  it  were  very  urgent 
&  in  this  case,  it  ought  not  to  be  done.  ,  ,  .    . 

It  was  moved  to  postpone  the  proposttion  of  IT.  Randolph  m 
order  to  take  up  the  following,  vis.  "  that  the  Committee  of  Eleven, 
to  whom  was  referred  the  report  of  the  Committee  of  five  on  the 
subject  of  Reprewsntation,  be  requested  to  furnish  the  Convention 
with  the  principles  on  which  they  grounded  the  Report,"  which  was 
disagreed  to:  S.  C.  only »  voting  in  the  afftrmative. 

Adjourned 


Wedmisdat  July  11.    in  Conventiom 

W.  Randolph's  motion  requiring  the  Lepsl"?  to  take  a  periodical 
census  for  the  purpose  of  redressing  inequalities  in  the  Representa- 
tion, was  resumed. 

XP  Shekman  was  ag?*  shackling  the  Legislature  too  much.  We 
ought  to  choose  wise  &  good  men,  and  then  confide  in  them. 

M!  Mason.  The  greater  the  difficulty  we  find  in  fixing  a  proper 
rule  of  Representation,  the  more  unwilling  ought  we  to  be,  to  throw 
the  task  from  ourwslves,  on  the  Gen?  LegUl*?  He  did  not  object  to 

•The  word  " pwpondenmcy "  is  changed  to  " preponder*nc« "  In  the  tr«n- 

'"'''■  The  word  "  alone  "  le  eubetitutrf  in  the  tranecript  for  "  only." 


232     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

the  eonjectaral  ratio  which  waa  to  prevail  in  the  outaet;  but  con- 
sidered a  Seviaion  from  time  to  time  according  to  aome  permanent 
&  preciae  standard  aa  esaential  to  y*.  fair  repreaentation  required  in 
the  1!*  branch.  According  to  the  present  population  of  America, 
the  North?  part  of  it  had  a  right  to  preponderate,  and  he  could 
not  deny  it.  But  he  wished  it  not  to  preponderate  hereafter  when 
the  reason  no  longer  continued.  Prom  the  nature  of  man  we  may 
be  sure,  that  those  who  have  power  in  their  hands  will  not  give  it 
up  while  they  can  retain  it  On  the  contrary  we  know  they  will 
always  when  they  cp  her  increase  it.  If  the  S.  States  therefore 
should  have  %  of  the  people  of  America  within  their  limita,  the 
Northern  will  hold  fast  the  majority  of  Representatives.  %  will 
govern  the  %.  The  S.  States  will  complain :  but  they  may  complain 
from  generation  to  generation  without  redress.  Unless  aome  prin- 
ciple therefore  which  will  do  justice  to  them  hereafter  shall  be 
inserted  in  the  Constitution,  disagreeable  aa  the  declaration  waa  to 
him,  he  must  declare  he  could  neither  vote  for  the  system  here,  nor 
support  it,  in  his  State.  Strong  objections  had  been  drawn  from 
the  danger  to  the  Atlantic  interests  from  new  Western  Statea. 
Ought  we  to  sacrifice  what  we  know  to  be  right  in  itself,  lest  it 
should  prove  favorable  to  Statea  which  are  not  yet  in  existence. 
If  the  Western  States  are  to  be  admitted  into  the  Union,  aa  they  arise, 
they  must,  he  w?  repeat,  be  treated  aa  equala,  and  subjected  to  no 
degrading  discriminations.  They  will  have  the  same  pride  &  other 
passions  which  we  have,  and  will  either  not  unite  with  or  will  speedily 
revolt  from  the  Union,  if  they  are  not  in  all  respects  placed  on  an 
equal  footing  with  their  brethem.  It  has  been  said  they  will  be 
poor,  and  unable  to  make  equal  contributions  to  the  general  Treasury. 
He  did  not  know  but  that  in  time  they  would  be  both  more  numeroua 
&  more  wealthy  than  their  Atlantic  brethren.  The  extent  &  fertility 
of  the;-.-  soil,  made  this  probable;  and  though  Spain  might  for  s 
time  c:prive  them  of  the  natural  outlet  for  their  productiona,  yet 
she  will,  because  she  must,  finally  yield  to  their  demands.  He  urged 
that  numbers  of  inhabitants;  though  not  always  a  precise  standard 
of  wealth  was  sufficiently  so  for  every  substantial  purpose. 

W-  Williamson  was  for  making  it  the  duty  of  the  Legislature  to 
do  what  was  right  &  not  leaving  it  at  liberty  to  do  or  not^  do  it. 
He  moved  that  Ml  Randolph's  proposition  be  postpon?  in  order 
to  consider  the  following  "  that  in  order  to  ascertain  the  altera- 
tions that  may  happen  in  the  population  &  wealth  of  the  several 


'  The  word  "  to  "  is  here  inaerted  in  the  tranacript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  11,  1787 


233 


States,  a  oennu  ihall  b«  Uken  of  the  fre«  white  inhabiUnU  ud 
%<¥  of  thoM  of  other  deaeriptioni  on  the  1^  year  after  thia  Oorem- 
meat  ahall  have  been  adopted  and  every  year  thereafter; 

and  that  the  Representation  be  regulated  accordingly." 

MT  Randolph  agreed  that  M*.  Williamaon's  propoaition  ahould 
stand  in  the  place  of  his.  He  observed  that  the  ratio  fizt  for  the 
ir  meeting  waa  a  mere  conjecture,  that  it  placed  the  power  in  the 
hands  of  that  part  of  America,  which  could  not  always  be  entitled 
to  it,  that  this  power  would  not  be  voluntarily  renounced;  and  that 
it  was  consequently  the  duty  of  the  Convention  to  secure  its  renunciv 
tion  when  justice  might  so  require ;  by  some  constitutional  provisions. 
If  equality  between  great  &  small  States  be  inadmissible,  because  in 
that  case  unequal  numbers  of  Constituents  w1  be  represented  by 
equal  number^  of  votes ;  was  it  not  equally  inadmissible  that  i, 
larger  &  morv  populous  district  of  America  should  hereafter  have 
less  representation,  than  a  imaller  k  less  populous  district.  If  a  fair 
representation  of  the  people  be  not  secured,  the  injustice  of  the  Qov! 
will  shake  it  to  its  foundations.  What  relates  to  suffrage  is  justly 
stated  by  the  celebrated  Montesquieu,  as  a  fundamental  urticle  in 
Republican  Gov*!  If  the  danger  suggested  by  IP  Govi  Morris  be 
real,  of  advantage  being  taken  of  the  Legislature  in  pressing  mo- 
ments, it  was  an  additional  jason,  for  tying  their  hands  in  such  a 
manner  that  they  could  not  sacrifice  their  trust  to  momentary  con- 
siderations. Cong!  have  pledged  the  public  faith  to  New  States, 
that  they  shall  bi,  admitted  on  equal  terms.  They  never  would  nor 
ought  to  accede  on  any  other.  The  census  must  be  taken  under  the 
direction  of  the  Qeneral  Legislature.  The  States  will  be  too  much 
interested  to  take  an  impartial  one  for  themselves. 

Mt  Butler  &  Oen'  Pinknet  insisted  that  blacks  be  included  in 
the  rule  of  Representation,  eqwtUy  with  the  Whites:  and  for  that 
purpose  moved  that  the  words  "  three  fifths  "  be  struck  out 

W.  Oerrt  thought  that  %  of  them  was  to  say  the  least  the  full 
proportion  that  could  be  admitted. 

MT  Ohwuu.  This  ratio  was  fixed  by  Congf  as  a  rule  of  taxa^ 
tion.  Then  it  was  urged  by  the  Delegates  representing  the  States 
having  slaves  that  the  blacks  were  still  more  inferior  to  freemen. 
At  present  when  the  ratio  of  representation  is  to  be  established, 
we  are  assured  that  they  are  equid  to  freemen.  The  arguments  on 
y?  former  occasion  had  convinced  him  that  %  was  pretty  near  the 
just  proportion  and  he  should  vote  according  to  the  same  opinion 
now. 

'  The  traiucrlpt  nace  the  word  "  nuaibar  "  in  th«  plunl. 


284     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

IC  BcTLiB  intuted  that  the  l&bour  of  a  dave  in  S.  Carol?  WH 
aa  prodnctive  &  valuable  aa  that  of  a  freeman  in  UaM*;,  that  aa 
vealth  wai  the  great  meana  of  defence  and  utility  to  the  Nation 
they  were  equally  valuable  to  it  with  freemen;  and  that  consequently 
an  equal  representation  ought  to  be  allowed  for  them  in  a  Govern- 
ment which  waa  instituted  principally. for  the  protection  of  property, 
and  was  itself  to  be  supported  by  property. 

W  Mason,  could  not  agree  to  the  motion,  notwithstand  it 
was  favorable  to  Virg?  because  he  thought  it  unjust.  It  waa  certain 
that  the  slaves  were  valuable,  as  they  raised  the  value  of  land,  in- 
creased the  exports  &  imports,  and  of  course  the  revenue,  would 
supply  the  means  of  feeding  &  suppoi  mg  an  army,  and  might  in 
cases  of  emergency  become  themselves  soldiers.  As  in  these  impor- 
tant respects  they  were  useful  to  the  community  at  large,  they  ought 
not  to  be  excluded  from  the  estimate  of  Representation.  He  could 
not  however  regard  them  as  equal  to  freemen  and  could  not  vote 
for  them  as  such.  He  added  as  worthy  of  remark,  that  the  Southern 
States  have  this  peculiar  species  of  property,  over  &  above  the  other 
species  of  property  common  to  all  the  States. 

M'.  WiLUAiisoN  reminded  M'.  Ohorum  that  if  the  South?  States 
contended  for  the  inferiority  of  blacks  to  whites  when  taxation  waa 
in  view,  the  Eastern  States  on  the  same  occasion  contended  for  thmr 
equality.  He  did  not  however  either  then  or  now,  concur  in  either 
extreme,  but  approved  of  the  ratio  of  94. 

On  Mi  Butlers  motion  for  considering  blacks  as  equal  to  "WMtea 
in  the  ap:  ortionm?  of  Representation. 

Mass':  no.  ConI  no.  [N.  Y.  not  on  floor.]  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  ay. 
M?  no.    V?  no    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

M-  Govt  Momos  said  he  had  several  objections  to  the  proposition 
of  MJ  Williamson.  1."  It  fettered  the  Legislature  too  much.  2.'  it 
would  exclude  some  States  altogether  who  would  not  have  a  suficient 
number  to  entitle  them  to  a  single  Representative.  3.*  it  will  not 
consist  with  the  Resolution  passed  on  Saturday  last  authorising  the 
Legislature  to  adjust  the  Representation  from  time  to  time  on  the 
principles  of  population  &  wealth  or»  with  the  principles  of  equity. 
If  slaves  were  to  be  considered  as  inhabitants,  not  as  wealth,  then 


•In  the  tranicript  the  rote  re«di:  "Delaware,  South  Carolina.  Georgia, 
tim—3;  Maasachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jeriey,  FennaylTania,  Maryland,  Vir- 
Kinia,  North  Carolina,  no— 7 ;  New  York  not  on  the  floor." 

•  The  figure  "  1 "  ia  changed  to  "  In  the  flrat  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  figure  "  2  "  ia  changed  to  "  In  the  second  place  "  in  the  tranicript. 

•  The  figure  "  3  "  ia  changed  to  "  In  the  third  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  or  "  is  changed  to  "  aor  "  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JXJLY  11,  1787 


286 


the  rf  ReMlution  would  not  be  punued:  If  u  wealth,  then  why  is 
no  other  wealth  but  elfcTee  included  t  The*  objeetiom  m»y  perhaps 
be  removed  by  amendments.  His  great  objection  was  that  the 
number  o£  inhabitants  was  not  a  proper  standard  o£  wealth.  The 
amazing  difference  between  the  comparative  numbers  ft  wealth  of 
different  Countries,  rendered  aU  reasoning  superfluous  on  the  sub- 
ject. Numbers  might  with  greater  propriety  be  deemed  a  measure 
of  stregth,  than  of  wealth,  yet  the  Ute  defence  made  by  G-  Britain, 
ag?'  her  numerous  enemies  proved  in  the  clearest  manner,  that  it  is 
entirely  fallacious  even  in  this  respect. 

W.  Kma  thought  there  was  great  force  in  the  objections  of  M? 
Gov!  Morris:  he  would  however  accede  tc  the  proposition  for  the 
sake  of  doing  something. 

W.  RuiUDQE  contended  for  the  admission  of  wealth  in  the  esti- 
mate by  which  Representation  should  be  r^pilated.  The  Western 
btates  will  not  be  able  to  contribute  in  proportion  to  their  numbers; 
they  sh*?  not  therefore  be  represented  in  that  proportion.  The  At- 
lantic States  will  not  concur  in  such  a  plan.  He  moved  that  "  at 
the  end  of  yea™  after  the  1?  meeting  of  the  Legislature, 

and  of  every  years  thereafter,  the  Legislature  shall  prt^rtion 

the  Representation  according  to  the  principles  of  wealth  ft  popu- 
lation" 

MT  Shisman  thought  the  number  of  people  alone  the  best  rule 
for  measuring  wealth  as  well  as  representation;  and  that  if  the 
Legislature  were  to  be  governed  by  wealth,  they  would  be  obligeu 
to  estimate  it  by  numbers.  He  was  at  first  for  leaving  the  matter 
wholly  to  the  discretion  of  the  Legislature;  but  he  had  been  c<m- 
vinced  by  the  observations  of  [Mf  Randolph  ft  IP  Mason,]  that  the 
periods  &  the  rule,  of  revising  the  Representation  ou^it  to  be  flxt  by 
the  Constitution 

W  Resd  thought  the  Legislature  ought  not  to  be  too  much 
shackled.  It  would  make  the  Constitution  like  Religious  Creeds,  em- 
barrassing to  those  bound  to  conform  to  them  ft  more  likely  to  produoe 
dissatisfaction  and  seism,  than  harmony  and  union. 

m  Mason  objected  to  W-  Rutlidge  motion,  as  requiring  of  the 
Legislature  something  too  indefinite  ft  impracticable,  and  leaving 
them  a  pretext  for  doing  nothing. 

MT  Wilson  had  himself  no  objection  to  leaving  the  Legislature 
entirely  at  liberty.    But  considered  wealth  as  an  impracticable  rule. 
MI  Gh(H(uu.    If  the  Convention  who  are  comparatively  so  little 
biassed  by  local  views  are  so  much  perplexed,  How  can  it  be  ex- 
pected that  the  Legislature  hereafter  under  the  full  biass  of  those 


PPWlAL'fll 


236      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Ticwf,  will  be  able  to  settle  a  atandard.  He  wai  conTineed  hy  the 
argomenta  of  othen  4  hia  own  reflectiona,  that  the  Convention  ooght 
to  fix  aome  standard  or  other. 

Mr  GoT^  MoBRta.    The  arg^  of  ©then  ft  hia  own  reflectiona  had 
led  him  to  a  very  different  conclusion.    If  we  can't  agree  on  a  rule 
that  will  be  jost  at  thia  time,  how  can  we  expect  to  find  one  that 
will  be  just  in  all  times  to  come.    Surely  those  who  come  after  as 
will  judge  better  of  things  present,  than  we  can  of  things  future. 
He  could  not  persuade  himself  that  numbers  would  be  a  just  rule  at 
any  time.     The  remarks  of  [IP  Mason]   relative  to  the  Western 
Country  had  not  changed  hia  opinion  on  that  head.    Among  other 
objections  it  must  be  apparent  they  would  not  be  able  to  fumiah 
men  equally  enlightened,  to  share  in  the  administration  of  our  com- 
mon interests.    The  Busy  haunta  of  men  not  the  remote  wilderness, 
waa  the  proper  achool  of  political  Talenta.    If  the  Western  people 
get  the  power  into  their  handa  they  will  ruin  the  Atlantic  intereata. 
The  Back  members  are  always  most  averse  to  the  best  measures.    He 
mentioned  the  case  of  Pen?  formeriy.    The  lower  part  of  the  State 
had  y»  power  in  the  first  instance.    They  kept  it  in  yT  own  handa 
ft  the  Country  waa  y«  better  for  It    Another  objection  with  him 
ag?  admitting  the  blacks  into  the  censoa,  waa  that  the  people  of 
Pen*  would  revolt  at  the  idea  of  being  put  on  a  footing  with  alavaa. 
They  would  reject  any  plan  that  waa  to  have  such  an  effect    Two 
objectiona  had  been  raised  ag?  leaving  the  adjustment  of  the  Rep- 
resentation from  time,  to  time,  to  the  discretion  of  the  Legislature. 
The  l.»  waa  they  would  be  unwilling  to  revise  it  at  aU.   The  2.*  that  by 
referring  to  wealth  they  would  be  bound  by  a  rule  which  if  willing, 
they  would  be  unable  to  execute.    The  1?  obj?  distrusts  their  fidelity. 
But  if  their  duty,  their  honor  ft  their  oatha  will  not  bind  them,  let 
us  not  put  into  their  hands  our  liberty,  and  all  our  other  great 
interests:  let  us  have  no  Gov!  at  aU.   2.»  If  these  ties  will  bind  them, 
we  need  not  distrust  the  practicability  of  the  rule.    It  was  foQowed 
in  part  by  the  Com?  in  the  apportionment  of  RepresenUtives  yester- 
day  reported  to  the  House.    The  best  course  that  could  be  taken 
would  be  to  leave  the  interests  of  the  people  to  the  Representatives 
of  the  people. 

Mt  Madison,  was  not  a  little  surprised  to  hear  thia  implicit  con- 
fidence urged  by  a  member  who  on  all  occasions,  had  inculcated  so 
strongly,  the  political  depravity  of  men,  and  the  necessity  of  cheek- 


^^^^J^e  figure*  "  1  ••  and  "2"  are  ehansed  to  "flrat"  and  " second"  in  the 
iThe  flgnre  "2"  U  changed  to  "In  the  Mcond  place"  In  the  tranKript 


rfnsmms 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  11,  1787 


237 


itiff  one  vice  and  inUreat  hy  oppoung  to  them  another  vice  ft  intenat. 
If  the  RepraaanUtiTea  of  the  people  woold  be  bound  by  the  tiea  he 
had  mentioned,  what  need  waa  there  of  a  Senate*  What  of  a  Ra- 
viaionary  power  t  But  hia  reasoning  wu  not  only  inconaiatent  with 
his  former  reasoning,  bnt  with  itself.  At  the  same  time  that  he  recom- 
mended this  implicit  confidence  to  the  Southern  Statea  in  tha  North- 
ern Majority,  he  waa  atiU  more  sealous  in  exhorting  all  to  a  jealousy 
of  Western  Majority.  To  reconcile  the  gentl?  with  himself,  it  it 
must  be  imagined  that  he  determined  the  human  character  by  the 
points  of  the  compass.  Th4  truth  waa  that  all  men  haring  power 
ought  to  be  diatrusted  to  a  eertain  degree.  The  caae  of  Pen;  had 
been  mentioned  where  it  waa  admitted  that  thoae  who  were  poaaeascd 
of  the  power  in  the  original  aettlement,  never  admitted  the  new 
settlem*;  to  a  due  share  of  it  England  waa  a  still  more  striking 
example.  The  power  there  had  long  been  in  the  handa  of  the  bor- 
oughs,  of  the  minority;  who  had  opposed  &  defeated  every  reform 
which  had  been  attempted.  Vlig*  waa  in  a  lesser '  degrea  another 
example.  With  regard  to  the  Weatem  Statea,  he  waa  clear  ft  firm 
in  opinion,  that  no  nnfavorable  distinctions  were  admissible  either 
in  point  of  justice  or  policy.  He  thouc^t  also  that  the  hope  of  con- 
tributions to  the  Treas?  from  them  had  been  much  underrated. 
Future  contributiona  it  aeemed  to  be  understood  on  all  handa  would 
be  principaDy  levied  on  imports  ft  exports.  The  extent  and  and  fer- 
tility of  the  Western  Soil  would  for  a  long  time  give  to  agriculture  a 
preference  over  manufaeturea.  Triala  would  be  repeated  till  aome 
articles  could  be  raised  from  it  that  would  bear  a  transportation  to 
places  where  they  could  be  exchanged  for  imported  manufactures. 
Whenever  the  Missiispi  should  be  opened  to  them,  which  would  of 
necessity  be  y7  caae,  as  soon  as  their  population  would  subject  them  to 
any  considerable  ahare  of  the  public  burdin,  imposta  <m  their  trade 
could  be  collected  with  less  expence  ft  greater  certainty,  than  on  that 
of  the  Atlantic  States.  In  the  mean  time,  aa  their  snppliea  must 
pass  thro'  the  Atlantic  8tate$,  their  contributions  would  be  levied 
in  the  same  manner  with  those  of  the  Atlantic  States.— He  could  not 
agree  that  any  substantial  objection  lay  agl*  fixi*  numbers  for  the 
perpetual  standard  of  Representation.  It  was  said  that  Represen- 
tation ft  taxation  were  to  go  together ;  that  taxation  and  wealth  ought 
to  go  together,  that  population  ft  wealth  were  not  measures  of  each 
other.  He  admitted  that  in  different  dimatea,  under  different  forms 
of  Gov.*  and  in  different  stages  of  civilizatioii  the  inference  was  per- 

"The  word  •'»"  U  here  iniertcd  in,  the  tnnicript. 

•  The  word  "  lesier  "  is  changed  to  "  IcM  "  in  the  transcript. 


238     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CO>rVENTION  OP  1787 

fectly  Jnt  H«  would  Admit  that  in  no  titaation,  namben  of  in- 
luibitanti  were  an  aeenrate  meaanr*  of  wealth.  He  contended  how- 
ever that  in  the  U.  SUtea  it  waa  lofflciently  ao  for  the  object  in 
contemplation.  Altho'  their  climate  varied  eonaiderably,  yet  aa  th« 
Got*?  the  lawi,  and  tha  mannera  of  all  were  nearly  the  lame,  and 
the  intereonrae  between  different  parta  perfectly  free,  population, 
industry,  arta,  and  the  value  of  labour,  would  constantly  tend  to 
equalize  themselvea.  The  value  of  labour,  might  be  considered  aa 
the  principal  criterion  of  wealth  and  ability  to  support  taxes;  and 
this  would  find  its  level  in  different  places  where  the  intereoursa 
ahould  be  easy  4  free,  with  aa  much  certainty  aa  the  value  of  mcmey 
or  any  other  thing.  Wherever  labour  would  yield  most,  people  would 
resort,  till  the  competition  should  destroy  the  inequality.  Hence  it 
k  that  the  people  are  constantly  swarming  from  the  more  to  the  less 
populoua  placea— from  Europe  to  Am!  from  the  North?  *  Biiddle 
parts  of  the  U.  8.  to  the  Southern  ft  Western.  They  go  where  land 
ia  cheaper,  because  there  labour  ia  dearer.  If  it  be  true  that  the 
tame  quantity  of  produce  raised  on  the  banks  of  the  Ohio  is  of  less 
value,  than  on  the  Delaware,  it  ia  also  true  that  the  same  labor 
will  nise  twice  or  thrice,  the  quantity  in  the  former,  that  it  will 
raise  in  the  latter  aituation. 

Col.  Mabon.  Agreed  with  M?  Govt  Horria  that  we  ought  to 
leave  the  interests  of  the  people  to  the  Representatives  of  the  people: 
but  the  objection  was  that  the  Legislature  would  cease  to  be  the 
Representatives  of  the  people.  It  would  continue  so  no  longer  than 
the  States  now  containing  a  majority  of  the  people  should  .-etain  that 
majority.  As  soon  aii  the  Southern  ft  Western  population  should 
predominate,  which  must  happen  in  a  few  years,  the  power  w1  be 
in  the  hands  of  the  minority,  and  would  never  be  yielded  to  the 
majority,  unless  provided  for  by  the  Constitution 

On  the  Question  'or  poatponing  M*.  Williamson's  motion,  in  order 
to  consider  that  of  Mr  Rntlidge  it  passed  in  the  negative.  Massif  ay. 
Con.'  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  W.  no.  V»  no.  N.  C.  no. 
S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  the  question  on  the  first  clause  of  M!  Williamson's  moti<» 
as  to  taking  a  census  of  the  free  inhabitants;  it  passed  in  the  affirma- 
tive Mas'?  ay.  ConUy.  N.  J.  ay.  P*  ay.  Del.no.  M"?  no.  Vf  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.»  ^^^ 

•In  the  trsnMript  the  vote  re«di!  " Mauachuietti,  PennsyWanU,  DeU- 
WRTe.  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  Connecticut,  New  Jeriey,  Maryland, 
Virslnia,  North  Carolina,  no— 8." 

•In   the   transcript   the   vote   reads:     " Mawachuaetti,    Connecticut,   New 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  11,  1787 


289 


the  next  eUoM  m  to  H  of  the  negroea  *  coniidend. 

Mr  Kino,  being  mneh  oppoeed  to  fixing  ntunben  u  the  rale  of 
rrpmentatioa,  wn  particolarly  ao  on  account  of  the  blaeka.  He 
tlionght  the  admiaaiou  nf  them  along  with  Whitea  at  all,  wonld 
exrite  great  diacontenta  among  the  Statea  having  no  alavca.  He 
had  never  laid  aa  to  any  particular  point  that  he  woold  in  no  event 
a(>(|uieM'e  in  k  rapport  it;  but  he  w1  aay  that  if  in  any  caae  rach  a 
<ieclaration  waa  to  be  made  by  him,  it  would  be  in  this.  He  remarked 
that  in  the  temporary  allotment  of  Repreaentativea  made  by  the 
Committee,  the  Stnthern  Statea  had  received  more  than  the  number 
of  their  white  &  three  flftha  of  their  black  inhabitanta  entitled 
them  to. 

W  SanXAif.  8.  '^arolf  had  not  more  beyond  her  proportion 
than  N.  York  k  N.  Hampehire,  nor  either  of  them  more  than  waa 
neoenary  in  order  to  avoid  fractions  or  reducing  them  below  their 
proportion.  Georgia  had  more;  but  the  rapid  growth  of  that  State 
leemed  to  jnatify  it.  In  general  the  allotment  might  not  be  Joit, 
iiUt  considering  all  eirenmatanoea,  he  waa  aatiafled  with  it. 

An  Ghobuii.  supported  the  propriety  of  establishing  numbers  aa 
the  rule.  He  said  that  in  MaasH  estimatea  had  been  taken  in  the 
different  towns,  and  that  persona  had  been  eurioua  enough  to  com- 
pare these  estimatea  with  the  respective  numbers  of  people;  and 
it  had  been  found  even  inducing  Boston,  that  the  most  exact  pro- 
portion prevailed  between  numbers  &  property.  He  waa  aware  that 
there  might  be  aome  weight  in  what  had  fallen  from  hia  colleague, 
as  to  the  umbrage  which  might  be  taken  by  the  people  of  the 
Eastern  States.  But  he  reedleeted  that  when  the  proposition  of 
Congi  for  changing  the  ff*  art:  of  Confed?  waa  before  the  Legis- 
lature of  Mass*!  the  only  difBculty  then  waa  to  satisfy  them  that  the 
negroes  ought  not  to  have  been  counted  equally  with »  whites  instead 
of  being  counted  in  the  ratio  of  three  flftha  only.* 

Mt  WiusoN  did  not  well  see  on  what  principle  the  admission  of 
blacks  in  the  proportion  of  three  fifths  could  be  explained.  Are 
they  admitted  as  Citisenst  then  why  are  they  not  admitted  on  an 
equality  with  White  Citizens  t  arc  they  admitted  as  property  t  then 
why  is  not  other  property  admitted  into  the  computation?    These 

•They  were  then  to  have  been  a  rule  of  taxation  only. 


.Toriey.  PenneylvanU,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  aye— 6;   Delaware,  Maryland, 
South  Carolina,  Georina,  no— 4." 

'  The  word  "  being  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

'  The  word  "  the  ''^U  her-^  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


240     DEBASES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

were  difiScolties  however  which  he  thoaght  must  be  overroled  by  the 
necessity  of  compnMiuse.  He  had  some  apprehensions  also  from  the 
tendency  of  the  blending  of  the  blacks  with  the  whites,  to  give  dis- 
gust to  the  people  of  Pen?  as  had  been  intimated  by  his  Colleague 
[W  GoTi  Morris].  Bat  he  differed  from  him  in  thinking  numbers 
of  inhab**.  so  incorrect  a  measure  of  wealth.  He  had  seen  the  West- 
em  settlem*?  of  P^  and  on  a  comparison  of  them  with  the  City  of 
Philad?  could  discover  little  other  difference,  than  that  property 
was  more  unequally  divided  among  individuals  ^  here  than  there.  Tak- 
ing  the  same  number  in  the  aggregate  in  the  two  situations  he  be- 
lieved there  would  be  little  difference  in  their  wealth  and  ability  to 
contribute  to  the  public  wants. 

W  Gk>v'.  Morris  was  compelled  to  declare  himself  reduced  to  the 
dilemma  of  doing  injustice  to  the  Southern  States  or  to  human 
nature,  and  he  must  therefore  do  it  to  the  former.  For  he  could 
never  agree  to  give  such  encouragement  to  the  slave  trade  as  would 
be  given  by  allowing  them  a  representation  for  their  negroes,  and  k3 
did  not  believe  those  States  would  ever  confederate  on  terms  thut 
would  deprive  them  of  that  trade. 

On '  Question  for  agreeing  to  include  %  of  the  blacks 

MassI*  no.  Con?  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P*  no.  Del  no.  Mard.*  no.  Vf  ay. 
N.  Cay.  S.  C.  no.  Geo.  ay* 

On  the  question  as  to  taking  *  census  "  the  first  year  after*  meet- 
ing of  the  Legislature  " 

Mas?  ay.  Con?  no.  N.  J.  ay.  F".  ay.  Del.  ay.  M"?  no.  Vi  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  ay.    Geo.  no.' 

On  fiUing  the  blank  for  the  periodical  census,  with  15  years." 
Agreed  to  nem.  con. 

M;  Madisom  moved  to  add  after  "  15  years,"  the  words  "  at 
least "  that  the  Le^slature  might  anticipate  when  circumstances 
were  likely  to  render  a  particular  year  inconvenient. 

*  [M'  Carrol  ifl  in  explanation  of  the  vote  of  M*  that  he  wiehed  the  phrase- 
ology* to  be  «o  altered  at  to  obviate  if  poMible  the  danger  which  had  been 
ezpreaeed  of  giving  umbrage  to  the  Eastern  ft  Middle  States.] 

'  The  wordg  "  among  indlTiduals  "  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  the  "  Is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  transcript  italiciies  the  word  "  phraseology." 

*  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Virginia,  North  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye— 4;  Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Mary- 
land,* South  Carolina,  no — 6." 

■In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  Pennsyl- 
vania Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye — 7;  Connecticut, 
Maryland,  Georgia,  no— 3." 


SESSION  OF  THUBSDAT,  JULY  12,  1787  24^ 

On  thif  motion  for  adding  "  at  leait,"  it  patted  in  the  negatire 
the  States  being  equally  divided. 

Mas.  ay.  Con.*  no.  N.  J.  no.  P!  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  no.  V*  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

A  Change  of '  the  phraseology  of  the  other  clause  so  as  to  read ; 
"  and  the  Legislature  shall  alter  or  augment  ihe  representation 
accordingly  "  was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

On  the  qnestion  on  the  whole  reaolation  of  W  Williamson  is 
amended. 

Mas.  no.  Con!  no.  N.  J.  no.  DeL  no.  Ml  no.  Y?  no.  N.  C.  no. 
S.  C.  no.  Geo.  no.'-  * 


Thubsdat.  July  12.    In  Contentiok 

W.  Gov!  MoBRis  moved  to  add  to  the  daxise  empowering  the  Legis- 
lature to  vary  the  Representation  according  to  the  principles  of 
wealth  &  number  *  of  inhab*^  a ' '  proviso  *'^  at  taxation  shall  be  in  pro- 
portion to  Representation." 

W-  Butler  contended  again  that  Representation  si  be  according  to 
the  full  number  of  inhab*?  including  all  the  blacks;  c^dmitting  the 
justice  of  M^  Gov?  Morris's  motion. 

W.  Mason  also  admitted  the  justice  of  the  principle,  but  was 
afraid  embarrassments  might  be  occasioned  to  the  Legislature  by  it. 
It  might  drive  the  Legislature  to  the  plan  of  Requisitions. 

M'.  Govt  Morbis,  admitted  that  some  objections  lay  agf*  his 
motion,  but  supposed  they  would  be  removed  by  restraining  the 
rule  to  direct  taxation.  With  regard  to  indirect  taxes  on  exports  k 
imports  &  on  consumption,  the  rule  would  be  inapplicable.  Not- 
withstanding what  had  been  said  to  the  contrary  he  was  persuaded 
that  the  imports  &  consumption  were  pretty  nearly  equal  through- 
out the  Union. 

General  Pinxnet  liked  the  idea.  He  thought  it  so  just  that  it 
could  not  be  objected  to.    But  foresaw  that  if  the  revision  of  the 

'In  the  transcript  the  Tott  reads:  " MaaHu;biuetts,  Virginia,  North  Caro- 
lina, South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 6;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennaylvmnia, 
Delaware,  Maryland,  no — 6." 

■  The  word  "  in  "  is  substituted  in  the  tnuucript  for  "  of." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New 
.Ters«y,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolia*,  Qeorgia, 
no— 9 ;  8o  it  was  rejected  unanianDualy." 

'  The  word  "  Adjourned  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 

'  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  number  "  in  the  pluraL 


242      DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

census  was  left  to  the  discretion  of  the  J^^'  "  T^^  !^n 
Z  carried  into  execution.  The  rule  must  be  fl^«d  and  the  exec^ 
tion  of  it  enforced  by  the  Constitution.  He  was  alarmed  at  what 
w"  s^id  yesterday/ concerning  the  neg«)e.  He  w»  now  ^ 
alarmed  at  what  had  been  thrown  out  concerning  the  taxmg  of 
STrL  S.  CaroK  h«i  in  one  year  «P<>^,*?  the  "n^*^ 
SSSSo  Sterling  all  which  was  the  fruit  of  the  labor  of  b"^^ 
Will  she  be  represented  in  proportion  to  this  amount?  She  wdlnot^ 
Neither  ought  she  then  to  be  subject  to  a  tax  on  >»•  Heh^  » 
clanse  would  be  inserted  in  the  -.stem,  restrauung  the  Legidature 

'~^';rrappJ:^  the  pnnciple.  but  could  -t  see  ^rJ  ^' 
be  carried  into  execution;  unless  restrained  to  ^"^J^ff  "^"^^j^ 
M-  Gov^  MoBiUB  having  so  varied  his  Motion  by  inserting 
the  woS^^'  diLt"  It  pasrf  nem.  con.  bb  follows-"  provided 
aJ^  It  Let  taxation  ought  to  be  proportioned  to  repre^mta- 

^'%  DAV»,  said  it  was  high  time  now  to  speak  out  He  ttw  that 
it  wt  mt^  by  «,me  gentlemen  to  deprive  the  Southern  Sto^  of 
i.;i^  of  B^presentation  for  their  »>^ /•^^"^.^^^ 
C«ol»  would  never  confederate  on  any  terms  that  did  not  rate  thwa 
Swr%.   If  the  Eastern  Stote.  meant  therefore  to  exclude  them 

altosether  the  business  was  at  an  end. 

•^  Sjoh»«on.  thought  that  weallj  and  population  w»e  Jie  tro^ 
eauitable  rule»  of  representation;  but  he  conceived  ttiat  thae  two 
ZSpks^lved  themselves  into  one;  population  being  the  b«t 
™^?e  of  wealth.  He  concluded  therefore  that  ye.  number  of 
STouglt  t^^  establirfied  as  the  rule,  and  that  f  de«nption. 
Sding  black.  equaUy  with  the  white^ought  toWl  wit^n  tte 
cSmputalion.  A.  various  opinions  had  be^  «P««ed  on  the  w^ 
^t  he  would  move  that  a  Committee  might  be  appointed  to  take 

ntv^tr "  t  r.,^"r  slSSTh;;  it  -.  ^gh  time  to  spe-k 
out^s?ne  -ber.  he  would  e^didly  ^o  -^H^'J'-  ^  ^h 
ft  eoniDact  for  the  good  of  America,  tie  was  reaay  •*»  "«^ 
y rstati  He  ?Sed  &  believed  that  all  would  ej^r  mto  ju^ 
*  ComDact  If  they  would  not  he  was  ready  to  join  with  any  States 
Siat  woSd.    But  L  the  Compact  was  to  be  voluutory,  it  «  m  vain 

•  By  Ml  Govt  MorrU. __^^___ 

« The  word  "  a  "  l»  omitted  in  the  transerlpt. 

1  ne  tranecript  ui*e  the  word  "  rule  "  in  the  plural.  „ 

.^*  ^'^  ..  fiad  "  iB  iub«tituted  in  the  tranKtipt  for     hai. 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAT,  JULY  12,  1787 


243 


for  the  Eaitem  Stotes  to  innit  on  what  the  Soath?  States  will  never 
agree  to.  It  is  equally  vain  for  the  latter  to  require  what  the  other 
States  can  never  admit;  and  he  verily  believed  the  people  of  Pent 
will  never  agree  to  a  representation  of  Negroes.  YHiat  can  be 
desired  by  these  States  more  than  has  been  already  proposed;  that 
the  Legiriature  shall  from  time  to  time  regtilate  Bepresentation 
according  to  population  &  wealth. 

Gen!  Pimkmzt  desired  that  the  rule  of  wealth  should  be  ascer- 
tained and  not  left  to  the  pleasure  of  the  Legislature;  and  that 
property  in  slaves  should  not  be  exposed  to  danger  under  a  Gov! 
instituted  for  the  protection  of  property. 

The  first  clause  in  the  Report  of  the  first  Grand  Committee  was 
postponed. 

Mr  EuBEWOBTH.  In  order  to  carry  into  effect  the  principle  estab- 
lished, moved  to  add  to  the  last  clause  adopted  by  the  House  the 
words  following  "and  that  the  rule  of  contribution  by  direct 
taxation  for  the  support  of  the  Government  of  the  U.  States  shall 
be  the  number  of  white  inhabitanta,  and  three  fifths  of  every  other 
description  in  the  several  States,  until  some  other  rule  that  shall  more 
accuvtely  ascertain  the  wealth  of  the  several  States  can  be  devised 
and  adopted  by  the  Legislature." 

W  BxrnxB  seconded  the  motion  in  order  that  it  might  be  com- 
mitted. 

IT.  lUmxHiPH  was  net  satisfied  with  the  motion.  The  danger 
will  be  revived  that  the  ingenuity  of  the  Legislature  may  evade  or 
pervert  the  rule  so  as  to  perpetuate  the  power  where  it  shall  be 
lodged  in  the  first  instance.  He  proposed  in  lien  of  W.  Elseworth's 
motion,  "  that  in  order  to  ascertain  the  alterations  in  Bepresenta- 
tion that  may  be  required  from  time  to  time  by  changes  in  the  rela- 
tive circumstances  of  the  States,  a  census  shall  be  taken  within 
two  years  from  the  1!*  meeting  of  the  Gen?  Legislature  of  the  U.  S., 
and  once  within  the  term  of  every  year  afterwards,  of  all  the 

inhabitanta  in  the  manner  ft  according  to  the  ratio  recommended  by 
Congress  in  their  resolution  of  the  18*^  di^  of  Ap!  1783;  [rating  the 
blacks  at  %  of  their  number]  and,  that  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S. 
shall  arrange  the  Bepresentation  accordingly."-  He  urged  strenu- 
ously that  express  security  ought  to  be  provided  for  including  slaves 
in  the  ratio  of  Bepresentation.  He  lamented  that  such  a  species  of 
property  existed.  But  as  it  did  exist  the  holders  of  it  would  require 
this  security.  It  was  perceived  that  the  design  was  entertained  by 
some  of  excluding  slaves  altogether;  the  Legislature  therefore  on^t 
not  to  be  left  at  liberty. 


244      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

MT  Elsewobtb  withdraws  his  motion  &  Beconds  that  of  If! 
Randolph. 

M'.  Wilson  observed  that  less  ambrage  would  perhaps  be  taken 
ag!*  an  admission  of  the  slaves  into  the  Rule  of  representation,  if  it 
shoold  be  so  expressed  as  to  make  them  indirectly  only  an  ingredient 
in  the  mle,  by  sajring  that  they  should  enter  into  the  role  of  taxation : 
and  as  representation  was  to  be  according  to  taxation,  the  end  would 
be  equally  attained.  He  accordingly  moved  &  was  2*?*  so  to  alter 
the  last  clause  adopted  by  the  House,  that  together  with  the  amend- 
ment proposed  the  whole  should  read  as  follows— provided  always 
that  the  representation  ou^t  to  be  proportioned  according  to  direct 
taxation,  and  in  order  to  ascertun  the  alterations  in  the  direct  taxa- 
tion which  may  be  required  from  time  to  time  by  the  changes  in  the 
relative  circumstances  of  the  States.  Resolved  that  a  census  be  taken 
vrithin  two  years  from  the  first  meeting  of  the  Legislature  o*  the 
U.  States,  and  once  within  the  term  of  every  years  afterwards 

of  all  the  inhabitants  of  the  U.  S.  in  the  manner  and  according  to 
the  ratio  recommended  by  Congress  in  their  Resolution  of  April  18.^ 
1783;  and  that  the  Le^ature  of  the  U.  S.  shall  proportion  the 
direct  taxation  accordingly." 

IC  Kino.  Altho'  this  amendment  vaiies  the  aspect  somewhat,  he 
had  still  two  powerful  objections  agf  tying  down  the  Legislature  to 
the  rule  of  numbers.  1.'  they  were  at  this  time  an  uncertain  index 
of  the  relative  wealth  of  the  States.  2.*  if  they  were  a  just  index 
at  this  time  it  can  not  be  supposed  always  to  continue  so.  He  was 
far  from  wishing  to  retain  any  unjust  advantage  whatever  in  one 
part  of  the  Republic.  If  justice  was  not  the  basis  of  Ihe  connection 
it  could  not  be  of  long  duration.  He  must  be  shortsighted  indeed 
who  does  not  foresee  that  whenever  the  Southern  States  shall  be  more 
numerous  than  the  Northern,  they  can  &  will  hold  a  language  that 
will  awe  them  into  justice.  If  they  threaten  to  separate  now  in  case 
injury  shall  be  done  them,  will  their  threats  be  less  urgent  or  effectual, 
when  force  shall  back  their  demands.  Even  in  the  intervening 
period,  there  will »  no  point  of  time  at  which  they  will  not  be  able  to 
say,  do  us  justice  or  we  will  separate.  He  urged  the  necessity  of 
placing  confidence  to  a  certain  degree  in  every  Qovi  and  did  not 
conceive  that  the  proposed  confidence  as  to  a  periodical  readjust- 
ment, of  the  representation  exceeued  that  degree. 


•  The  daU-  "  April  18  "  is  changed  to  "  the  eighteenth  day  of  April  *'  in  the 
t  rftD  tCT  i  pti 

» TSe  figores  "  1 "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  first "  »nd  "  aecondly  "  la  the 
transcript. 

■  The  word  "  be  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JULY  12,  1787 


245 


m  PiNKNET  moTed  to  amend  IP  lUndolph's  motion  so  as  to 
make  "  blacks  equal  to  the  whites  in  the  ratio  of  reprewntation." 
This  he  urged  waa  nothing  more  than  jtutice.  The  blacks  are  the 
labourers,  the  peasants  of  the  Southern  States:  they  are  as  pro 
ductive  of  pecuniary  resourcea  as  those  of  the  Northern  States.  They 
add  equally  to  the  wealth,  and  considering  money  as  the  sinew  of  war, 
to  the  strength  of  the  nation.  It  will  also  be  politic  with  regard 
to  the  Northern  States,  as  taxation  is  to  keep  pace  with  Represen- 
tation. 

Gen}  Pdjknet  moves  to  insert  6  years  instead  of  two,  as  the 
period  computing  from '  If  meeting  of  y?  Legis-  within  which  the 
first  census  should  be  taken.  On  thj*  question  for  inserting  six »  in- 
stead of  "  two  "  in  the  proposition  of  M'.  Wilson,  it  passed  in  the 
affirmative 

Masts,  no.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  div^  May^  ay.  V»  no. 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

On  a*  question  for  filling  the  blank  for  y?  periodical  census  with 
20  years,  it  it  passed  in  the  negative. 

Mas*?  no.  Ci  ay.  N.J.  ay.  P.  ay.  Del  no.  M"?  no.  V»  no. 
N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  no.  Geo.  no.» 

On  a  *  question  for  10  years,  it  passed  in  the  affirmative. 

Mas.  ay.  Con.*  no.  N.  J.  no.  P.  ay.  Del.  ay.  M4  ay.  V?  ay.  N.  C. 
ay.    S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.* 

On  m  Pinkney's  motion  for  rating  blacks  as  equal  to  Whites 

instead  of  as  % — 

Mas.  no.  Con?  no.  [D'  Johnson  ay]  N.  J.  no.  Pt  no.  [3  agf 
2.]    Del.  no.    M*.  no.    V:  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo— ay.» 

MI  Randolph's  proposition  as  varied  by  Mi  Wilson  being  read 
for  *  question  on  the  whole. 

M'.  Gerry,  urged  that  the  principle  of  it  could  not  be  carried 


■  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  Imerted  In  the  tranicript 

•  The  word  "  yetirs "  is  here  inserted  In  the  transcript.  _  ,       . 

•  In  the  tmnMript  the  vote  re«U:  "  Connecticut.  New  Jersey  Pennsylvjuu*. 
Maryland,  South  Carolina,  aye-5;  MaawwAusetta,  VirgmU,  North  Carolina, 
Georiria.  no — 4 ;  Delaware,  divided." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  U  substituted  in  the  transcript  for     a.  „_„„, 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  ••Connecticut  >ew  Jersey.  Tenn^- 
vwia.  aye-3;  Massa^nsetto,  DeUware,  Maryland,  Virginia.  North  Carolina, 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 7."  •d._»_,i».-;.    TV.U. 

•In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  « Masssrhusett^  P«J?*y'^'"»'„?*^. 
ware,  Maryland,  VirginU.  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  QeorgU,  aye-8. 

"""".tn^'tfe  t^:Bcri^?h°^t^ "iui.:  "  South  Ci^olina  Georgia  .T-^^'- 
chusetts.  Connecticut.    [Doctor  Johnson,   ayel     New  Jersey^Pennsylvama,    [3 
against  2]  Delaware.  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  n»-8. 
'  The  words  •'  taking  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


246      DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

into  execution  as  the  States  were  not  to  be  taxed  a«  State*.  With 
regard  to  taxes  in '  imports,  he  conceived  they  would  be  more  pro- 
ductive. Where  there  were  no  slaves  than  where  there  were;  the  con- 
sumption  being  greater — 

Mr  Elseworth.  In  case  of  a  poll  tax  there  w1  be  no  diffieolty. 
But  there  w^  probably  be  none.  The  sum  allotted  to  a  State  may  be 
levied  without  difficulty  according  to  the  plan  used  by  the  State  in 
raising  its  own  supplies.  On  the  question  on  y?  whole  proposition ;  as 
proportioning  representation  to  direct  taxation  &  both  to  the  white 
&  %  of  *  black  inhabitants,  &  requiring  a  Census  within  six  years — 
&  within  every  ten  years  afterwards. 

Mas.  div*  Con.'  ay.  N.  J.  na  P?  ay.  DeL  no.  W  ay.  V?  ay.  N.  C. 
ay.   S.  C.  div*.   Geo.  ay.*-  * 


Pbidat.  JxniT  13.    in  Contention 

It  being  moved  to  postpone  the  clause  in  the  Report  of  the 
Committee  of  Eleven  as  to  the  originating  of  money  bflls  in  the  •  first 
branch,  in  order  to  take  up  the  following—"  that  in  the  2^  branch 
each  State  shall  have  an  equal  voice." 

IV.  Gerbt,  moved  to  add  as  an  amendment  to  the  last  clause 
agreed  to  by  the  House,  "  that  from  the  first  meeting  of  the  Legis- 
lature of  the  U.  S.  till  a  census  shall  be  taken  all  monies  to  be 
raised  for  supplying  the  public  Treasury  by  direct  taxation,  shall  be 
assessed  on  the  inhabitants  of  the  several  States  according  to  the 
number  of  their  Representatives  respectively  in  the  1**  branch." 
He  said  this  would  be  as  just  before  as  after  the  Census :  according 
to  the  general  principle  that  taxation  &  Representation  ought  to  go 
together. 

MT  WiLUAMSON  feared  that  N.  Hamshire  will  have  reason  to 
complain.  3  members  were  allotted  to  her  as  a  liberal  allowance, 
for  this  reason  among  others,  that  she  might  not  suppose  any  ad- 
vantage to  have  been  taken  of  hei  absence.  As  she  was  still  absent, 
and  had  no  opportunity  of  deciding  whether  she  would  chuse  to 
retain  the  number  on  the  condition,  of  her  being  taxed  in  proportion 


'  The  word  "  on  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  in." 

*  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  trsnecript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Pennsylvania.  Maryland, 
Virginia,  North  Carolinn,  Georgia,  ave— 6;  New  Jeraej,  Delaware,  no— 2:  "' 
chusatts.  South  Carolina,  divided  " 

*  The  word  "  Adjourned  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  the  "  is  not  italicired  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  FEIDAY,  JULY  13,  1787 


scr 


to  it,  he  thought  the  number  ought  to  be  reduced  from  three  to  two, 
before  the  quertion' on  MfO'emotioii.  „   v  j    u        a 

M!  Read  could  not  approve  of  the  proportion.  He  had  obeerved 
he  said  in  the  Committee  a  backwardnees  in  tome  of  the  member, 
from  the  large  Statea,  to  take  their  full  proportion  of  EeprewntaUvea. 
He  did  not  then  see  the  motive.  He  now  suapecto  it  waa  to  avoid  their 
due  share  of  taxation.  He  had  no  objection  to  a  juat  4  accurate 
adjustment  of  Representation  &  taxation  to  each  other. 

M'.  Gov!  MoBBH  &  Ml  Madbon  answered  that  the  charge  itaell 
involved  an  acquittal,  since  notwithstanding  the  augmentation  of 
Tnumber  of  member.  aUotted  to  Ma.-.  &  V-  the  "'oUon  for  pro- 
portioning the  burden,  thereto  was  made  by  a  member  from  the 
fomer  Stote  &  wa.  approved  by  M'-  M  from  the  ^^^'J^\''»^/^ 
SrSmf    Mr  Gov?  Morri.  «id  that  he  thought  K  ^^'^^ 
share  in  8  member.;  and  he  could  not  in  candor  aak  for  more. 
Mr  M.  said  that  having  always  conceived  that  the  difference  ofintereet 
in  the  U.  State,  lay  not  between  the  large  &  «n.ll,  but  the  N.  & 
South?  State.,  and  finding  that  the  number  of  »«^»'«»j""^*f  ^^ 
the  N.  State,  was  greatly  mperior,  be  diould  have  Pr^erred   an 
addition  of  two  member,  to  tiie  S.  Stated  to  ^t  oneto  N.  4  1  to 
S.  CarU  rather  than  of  one  member  to  Virg?    ^'^^^J***  ^Tr!; 
motion,  becauM  it  tended  to  moderate  the  viewa  both  of  the  oppo- 
nents  &  advocate,  for  rating  very  high,  the  negroes 

Mr  Elbewobth  hoped  the  propontion  would  be  withdrawn,  it 
entered  too  much  into  detail.  The  general  principle  waa  already 
wdBcientiy  Mttied.  A.  fractiona  can  not  be  regarded  in  apportion- 
ing tiie  N9  of  representatives,  the  rule  will  be  unjurt,  until  an  actiial 
census  shall  be  made,  after  tiiat  taxation  may  be  preci«sly  propor- 
tioned  according  to  the  principle  establiriied,  to  tiie  number    of 

inhabitants.  t*  ;♦ -».a 

m  Wilson  hoped  the  motion  would  not  be  witiidrawn.  ll  it  an.. 
it  wUl  be  made  from  another  quarter.  The  rule  will  be  aa  rewon- 
able  &  just  before,  a.  after  a  Census.  As  to  fractional  numbers 
the  Censu.  will  not  distroy,  but  ascertain  tiiem.  And  tiiey  will 
have  tiie  «une  effect  after  as  before  the  Census:  for  a.  he  under- 
stands the  rule,  it  is  to  be  adjusted  not  to  tiie  number  of  tnkabttants, 
but  of  Representatives.  .      .     ,     •  i  ^  _ 

IP.  Sherman  opposed  the  motion.  He  tiiought  tiie  Legislature 
ought  to  be  left  at  liberty:  in  which  case  they  would  probably  con- 
form  to  the  principles  observed  by  Congl 


>  The  word*  "  wm  taken  ••  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


248      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


AR  BfASON  did  DOt  know  that  Virg?  wonid  be  a  loter  by  the  pro- 
posed regulation,  but  had  some  aemple  as  to  the  juatiee  of  it.  Hq 
doubted  much  whether  the  conjectural  rule  which  waa  to  precede  the 
Cenaua,  would  be  aa  just,  aa  it  would  be  rendered  by  an  actual  cenaua. 

M*.  EuBEWORTB  ft  tip  Sherman  moved  to  poatpone  the  motion  of 
Mr  Oerry,  on  y?  question,  it  passed  in  the  negative. 

Mas.  no.  Con.*  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  M*  ay.  V»  no.  N.  0. 
no.  S.  C.  no.  Geo.  no.* 

*  Question  on  W  Gerry's  motion;  it  passed  in  the  negative,  the 
States  being  equally  divided. 

Mas.  ay.  Con.'  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  DeL  no.  M?  no.  [Ff  no.  N.  C. 
ay.    S.  C.  ay.    (Jeo.  ay.' 

Mr  Gerrt  finding  that  the  loss  of  the  question  had  proceeded 
from  an  objection  with  some,  to  tho  proposed  assessment  of  direct 
taxes  on  the  inhabitants  of  the  States,  which  might  restrain  the  Legis- 
lature to  a  poll  tax,  moved  his  proposition  again,  but  so  varied  aa 
to  authorise  the  assessment  on  the  States,  which  w^  leave  *  the  mode 
to  the  Legislature,  at  this  caret  insert  the  words  interlined  ■  viz  "  that 
from  the  1!*  meeting  of  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  untill  a  census 
shall  be  taken,  all  monies  for  supplying  the  public  Treasury  by  direct 
taxation  shall  be  raised  from  the  said  several  States  according  to  the 
number  of  their  representatives  respectively  in  the  1!*  branch." 

On  this  varied  question,  it  passed  in  the  affirmative 

Mas.  ay.  Con!  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  diiA  Del.  no.  W  no.  7?  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.« 

On  the  motion  of  W  Randolph,  the  vote  of  Saturday^  last 
authorising  the  LegislT  to  adjust  from  time  to  time,  the  representa- 
tion upon  the  principles  of  wealth  &  numbers  of  inhabitants  was 
reconsidered  by  c<«nmon  consent  in  order  to  strike  out  "  Wealth*" 
and  adjust  the  resolution  to  that  requiring  periodical  revisions  ac- 
cording to  the  number  of  whites  &  three  fifths  of  the  blacks:  the 

'In  the  tnuiMript  the  rote  rewU:  "Connecticut,  New  Jeriey,  DelarTare, 
Maryland,  aye— 4 ;  Maaaachuietta,  Pennsylvanis,  Virginia,  Xortii  Carolina,  ''onib 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no— S." 

a  The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

■In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "  MaBiachuaetta,  Penntylvoma,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — S;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  no— 6." 

•  The  word  "  leaves  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  w^  leare." 

'  Madison's  direction  concerning  the  interlined  words  is  omitted  in  the 
transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts.  Virginia,  North  Caro- 
lina, South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 5;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware, 
Maryl.'rd,  no — *;  Pennaylvania,  divided." 

'  The  word  "  Saturday  "  is  changed  to  "  Monday  "  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  transcript  italioiMs  the  Tord  "  Wealth." 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  JULY  13,  1787 


249 


motion  was  in  the  words  following — "  But  u  the  preMnt  lituation 
of  the  States  may  probably  alter  in  the  number  of  their  inhabitants, 
that  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  be  authorized  from  time  to  time  to 
apportion  the  number  of  representatives:  and  in  case  any  of  the 
States  shall  hereafter  be  divided  or  any  two  or  more  States  united 
or  new  States  created  within  the  limits  of  the  U.  S.  the  Legislature 
of^  U.  S.  shall  possess  authority  to  regulate  the  number  of  Rep- 
resentatives in  any  of  the  foregoing  cases,  upon  the  principle  of  their 
number  of  inhabitants;  according  to  the  provisions  hereafter  men- 
tioned. ' ' 

Mt  Gov!  MoBBis  opposed  the  alteration  as  leaving  still  an  inco- 
herence. If  Negroes  were  to  be  viewed  as  inhabitants,  and  the 
revision  was  to  proceed  on  the  principle  of  numbers  of  inhab".  they 
ought  to  be  added  in  their  entire  number,  and  not  in  the  proportion  of 
*s.  If  as  property,  the  word  wealth  was  right,  and  striking  it  out, 
would  produce  the  very  inconsistency  which  it  was  meant  to  get  rid 
of.— The  train  of  business  &  the  late  turn  which  it  had  taken,  had  led 
him  he  said,  into  deep  meditation  on  it,  and  He  w?  candidly  state 
the  result.  A  distinction  had  been  set  up  ft  urged,  between  the 
N?  &  South?  States.  He  had  hitherto  considered  thia  doctrine  as 
heretical.  He  still  thought  the  distinction  groundless.  He  sees 
however  that  it  is  persisted  in,  and  that  the  South?  Gentlemen  will  not 
be  satisfied  unless  they  see  the  way  open  to  their  gaining  a  majority 
in  the  public  Councils.  The  consequence  of  such  a  transfer  of  power 
from  the  maritime  to  the  interior  &  landed  interest  will  he  foresees  be 
such  an  oppression  of '  commerce,  that  he  ahall  be  obliged  to  vote  for 
>i  vicious  principle  of  equality  in  the  2^  branch  in  order  to  provide 
some  defence  for  the  N.  States  ag^  it.  But  to  come  more  to  the 
point;  either  this  distinction  is  fictitious  or  real;  if  fictitioua  let  it 
be  dismissed  &  let  us  proceed  with  due  confidence.  If  it  be  real, 
instead  of  attempting  to  blend  incompatible  things,  let  us  at  once  take 
a  friendly  leave  of  each  other.  There  can  be  no  end  of  demands 
for  security  if  every  particular  interest  is  to  be  entitled  to  it.  The 
Eastern  States  may  claim  it  for  their  fishery,  and  for  other  objects, 
as  the  South"  States  claim  it  for  their  peculiar  objects.  In  this 
struggle  between  the  two  ends  of  the  Union,  what  part  ought  the 
middle  States  in  point  of  policy  to  take:  to  join  their  Eastern 
brethren  according  to  his  ideas.  If  the  South?  States  get  the  power 
into  their  hands,  and  be  joined  as  they  will  be  with  the  interior 


■  The  word  "  the  "  ii  here  inMrted  in  tba  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  to  "  it  lubatituted  in  the  truueript  for  "  of.' 


260     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Coontry,  they  will  inevitably  bring  on  a  war  with  Spain  for  the 
MiniMippi.  This  language  is  already  held.  The  interior  Cotmtry 
having  no  property  nor  intereat  ezpoaed  on  the  tea,  will  be  little 
affected  by  inch  a  war.  He  wished  to  know  what  security  the 
North?  ft  middle  SUtes  will  have  ag!*  this  danger.  It  has  been  laid 
that  N.  C.  S.  C,  and  Georgia  only  will  in  a  little  time  have  a 
majority  of  the  people  of  America.  They  most  in  that  case  include 
the  great  interior  Country,  and  every  thing  was  to  be  apprehended 
from  their  getting  the  power  into  their  hands. 

Ml  BuTLDL  The  security  the  South?  States  want  is  that  their 
negroes  may  not  be  taken  from  them,  which  some  gentlemen  within 
or  without  doors,  have  a  very  good  mind  to  do.  It  was  not  sup- 
posed  that  N.  C.  8.  C.  ft  Geo.  would  have  more  people  than  all  the 
other  States,  but  many  more  relatively  to  the  other  States  than  they 
now  have.  The  people  ft  strength  of  America  are  evidently  bearing 
Southwardly  ft  8.  westw^ 

M!  Wilson.  If  a  general  declaration  would  satisfy  any  gentle- 
man he  had  no  indisposition  to  declare  his  sentiments.  Conceiving 
that  all  men  wherever  placed  have  equal  rii^ts  and  are  equally 
entitled  to  confidence,  he  viewed  without  apprehension  the  period 
when  a  few  States  should  contain  the  superior  number  of  people. 
The  majority  of  people  wherever  found  ought  in  all  questions  to 
govern  the  minority.  If  the  interior  Country  should  acquire  this 
majority,  it  will  not  only  have  the  right,  but  will  avail  themselves  * 
of  it  whether  wa  will  or  no.  This  jealousy  misled  the  policy  of  G. 
Britain  with  regard  to  America.  The  fatal  maxims  espoused  by  her 
were  that  the  Colonies  were  growing  too  fast,  and  that  their  growth 
must  be  stinted  in  time.  What  were  the  consequences  t  first,  enmity 
on  our  part,  then  actual  separation.  Like  consequences  will  result 
on  the  part  of  the  interior  settlements,  if  like  jealousy  ft  policy  be 
pursued  on  ours.  Further,  if  numbers  be  not  a  proper  rule,  why  is 
not  some  better  rule  pointed  out.  No  one  has  yet  ventured  to  at- 
tempt it.  Cong^  have  never  been  able  to  discover  a  better.  No 
State  as  far  as  he  had  heard,  has  suggested  any  other.  In  1783,  after 
elaborate  discussion  of  a  measure  of  wealth  all  were  satisfied  then 
as  they  are  now  that  the  rule  of  numbers,  does  not  differ  much  from 
the  combined  rule  of  numbers  ft  wealth.  Again  he  could  not  agree 
that  property  was  the  sole  or  the  *  primary  object  of  Govern^  ft  society. 
The  cultivation  &  improvement  of  the  human  mind  was  the  most 
noble  object.    With  respect  to  this  object,  as  well  as  to  other  personal 

'  The  word  "  ItseH  "  is  B«b»tltut*d  In  the  transcript  for  "  thennelvet." 

'  Tie  word  "  the  "  i=  oaiitt*^  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  SATURDAY,  JULY  14,  1787 


261 


righto,  nnmbcn  were  rorely  the  natanl  &  prcc^  mearare  of  Rep- 
reeentation.  And  Y\a  rwpeet  to  property,  they  could  not  ruj 
much  from  the  preciee  meatare.  In  no  point  of  view  however  could 
the  ntabliahm!  of  nnmbcn  u  the  mle  of  repreeentation  in  the  1!* 
branch  vary  his  opinion  h  to  the  impropriety  of  letting  a  viciooi 
principle  into  the  21  branch.— On  the  Qneetion  to  itrike  oat  wealtk, 
ft  to  make  the  change  as  moved  by  W.  Randolph,  it  passed  in  the 
affirmat  ve — 

Mae,  ay.  Con}  ay.  N.J.  ay.  P*  ay.  Del.  div<  M*  ay.  V»  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Oeo.  ay.* 

Ml  RtD  moved  to  insert  after  the  word-  "divided,"  "or  enlarged 
by  addition  of  territory  "  which  was  agreed  to  nem.  con.  [his  object 
probably  was  to  provide  for  each  eases  as  an  cnlargemJ  of  Delaware  by 
annexing  to  it  the  Peninsula  on  the  East  side  of  ^  tjhesapcak] 

Adjoomad. 


Satuidat.  July  14.    in  Coktsntion 

M!  L.  Mahtin  called  for  the  qncttion  on  the  whole  report,  in^ 
eluding  the  parts  relating  to  the  origination  of  money  bills,  and  the 
equality  of  votes  in  the  2?  branch. 

Mr  GsBsr.  wished  before  the  question  should  be  put,  that  the  at- 
tention of  the  House  might  be  turned  to  the  dangers  apprehended 
from  Western  SUtes.  He  wae  for  admitting  them  on  liberal  terms, 
but  not  for  putting  ourselves  into  their  hands.  They  will  if  they 
acquire  power  like  all  men,  abuse  it.  They  will  oppress  commerce, 
and  drain  our  wealth  into  the  Western  Country.  To  guard  agf 
these  consequences,  he  thought  it  necessary  to  limit  the  number  of 
new  States  to  be  admitted  into  the  Union,  in  such  a  manner,  that 
they  should  never  be  able  to  outnumber  the  Atlantic  States.  He 
accordingly  moved  "  that  in  order  to  secure  the  liberties  of  the  States 
already  confederated,  the  number  of  Representatives  in  the  1!*  branch, 
of  the  SUtea  which  shall  hereafter  be  estoblished,  shall  never  exceed 
in  number,  the  Representotives  from  such  of  the  SUtes  as  shall 
accede  to  this  confederation. 

]yn  Kino,    seconded  the  motioiL 


■In  the  tr»Bicript  the  rote  rewUs  •' M»WM!hu»ett»,  Connecticut,  New 
Jersey.  PenniyWanU,  lUryluid.  VirgliUa,  North  Cuolina.  South  C«roMn», 
Georgia,  aye— 9;  Delaware,  divided."  _.,...  *„      i 

■The  word  "the"  ii  here  iiMertwi  in  tte  tranacript;  and  the  aentence  in 
braclceti  is  a  footnote. 


»»  DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

&n  SasaMAN,  thought  then  wm  no  probability  that  th«  nomber 
of  futare  States  would  excMd  that  of  the  Existing  States.  If  the 
erent  should  ever  happen,  it  was  too  remote  to  be  taken  into  con- 
sideration at  thia  time.  Besides  We  are  providing  for  our  posteritj', 
for  our  children  A  our  grand  Children,  who  would  be  as  likely  to  be 
citizens  of  new  Western  States,  as  of  the  old  States.  On  this  eon- 
aideration  alone,  we  ought  to  make  no  saeh  discrimination  as  was 
proposed  by  the  motion. 

M!  Oonr.  If  some  of  oar  children  ihonld  remove,  others  will 
stay  behind,  and  he  thought  it  incumbent  on  oa  to  provide  for  their 
interests.  There  was  a  rage  for  emigration  from  the  Eastern  States 
to  the  Western  Country,  and  he  did  not  wish  those  remaining  behind 
to  be  at  the  mercy  of  the  Emigrants.  Besides  foreigners  are  resort- 
ing to  that  country,  and  it  is  uncertain  what  turn  things  may  take 
there.— On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  the  Motion  of  Mr  Oeriy,  it 
passed  in  the  negative. 

Mas.  ay.  ConJ  ay.  N.J.  no.  P*  divf  Del:  ay.  M*  ay.  VS  na 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Oea  no.* 

M^  BuTUDai  proposed  to  reconsider  the  two  propositions  touch- 
ing the  originating  of  money  bills  in  the  first  ft  the  equality  of  votes 
in  the  second  branch. 

M!  Sbxrman  was  for  the  question  on  the  whole  at  onee.  It  was 
he  said  a  conciliatory  plan,  it  had  been  considered  in  all  ita  parts,  a 
great  deal  of  time  had  been  spent  oa*  it,  and  if  any  part  should 
now  be  altered,  it  would  be  necessary  to  go  over  the  whole  gronnd 
again. 

M!  L.  Martin  urged  the  question  on  the  whole.  He  did  not  like 
many  parta  of  it  He  did  not  like  having  two  branches,  nor  the  in- 
equality of  votes  in  the  V  branch.  He  was  willing  however  to  make 
trial  of  the  plan,  rather  than  do  nothing. 

M^  WitaoN  traced  the  progress  of  the  report  through  ita  several 
stages,  remarking  yf  when  on  the  question  concerning  an  equality  of 
votes,  the  House  was  divided,  our  Constituenta  had  they  voted  as 
their  representatives  did,  would  have  stood  as  *4  agf  the  equality, 
and  %  only  in  favor  of  it.  This  fact  would  ere  long  be  known,  and 
it  will '  appear  that  this  fundamental  point  has  been  carried  by  H 
ag?  %.    What  hopes  will  our  Constituenta  entertain  when  they  find 


In  the  tranBcript  the  Tote  rrade:  "  MsMtehuaetts,  Connerticut,  DeUware, 
Haryland,  aye— 4;  New  Jeney,  Virffinis,  North  Carolina,  South  CaroUas, 
Georgia,  no — 5;  PenniTlTania,  divided." 

■  The  word  "  upon  '•  ii  rabetituted  in  the  tranieript  for  "  on." 
•  The  word  "  would  "  ia  anbatituted  in  the  tnuucript  for  '<  will." 


SESSION  OF  SATUBDAT,  JULY  14.  1787 


253 


that  the  caaentiol  principle!  of  Justice  have  been  violated  in  the  ootset 
uf  the  Governing  Ae  to  the  privilege  of  originating  money  billa,  it 
was  not  considered  by  any  oa  of  much  moment,  and  by  many  as 
improper  in  itself.  He  hoped  both  clauses  w*!  be  reconsidered.  The 
c(|uality  of  votes  was  a  point  of  such  critical  importance,  that  every 
opportunity  ought  to  be  allowed,  for  diaeuaaing  and  collecting  the 
iiiiiid  of  the  Convention  on  '  it. 

Ml  L.  Martin  denies  that  there  were  H  agt*  the  eqaality  of 
roten.  The  States  that  please  to  call  themselves  large,  are  the  weekc 
in  the  Union.  Look  at  Masi  Look  at  Virgt  Are  they  efBc'i 
States  f  He  was  for  letting  a  separation  take  place  if  they  dadrr  t 
He  had  rather  there  should  be  two  Confederaciea,  than  one  fn  i<  J 
on  any  other  principle  than  an  eqaality  of  votes  in  the  2^  'i'-'.r  Vi 
at  least. 

M'.  WiL«ON  was  not  surprised  that  those  who  say  that  a  'ii'.iO<  i\ 
m '  more  than  the '  majority  shonld  say  that  *  the  minority  '     \..on<i;'  • 
than  the  majority.    He  supposed  the  ne.\t  assertion  will  In.  t.  at  'fab. 
are  richer  also;  though  he  hardly  expected  it  would  be  p«rsL'<.d  u. 
when  the  States  shall  be  called  on  for  taxes  &  troops — 

W.  Oerry.  also  animadverted  on  Mi  L.  Martina  remarks  on  t 
weakness  of  ilast!  He  favored  the  reconsideration  with  a  view  not 
of  destroying  the  eqaality  of  votes ;  but  of  providing  that  the  States 
should  vote  per  capita,  which  he  said  would  prevent  the  delays  ft 
inconveniences  that  had  been  experienced  in  Cong!  and  would  give  a 
national  aspect  k  Spirit  to  the  management  of  bosineas.  He  did 
not  approve  of  a  reconsideration  of  the  clause  relating  to  money 
bills.  It  was  of  great  consequence.  It  was  the  comer  stone  of  the 
accomodation.  If  any  member  of  the  Convention  had  the  exclusive 
privilege  of  making  propositions,  would  any  one  say  that  it  would 
give  him  no  advantage  over  other  members.  The  Report  was  not 
altogether  to  his  mind.  But  he  would  agree  to  it  aa  it  stood  rather 
than  throw  it  out  altogether. 

The  reconsideration  being  tacitly  agreed  to 

in  PiNKNEY  moved  that  instead  of  an  equality  of  votes,  the 
States  should  be  represented  in  the  21  branch  as  follows:  N.  H.  by. 
2.  members.  Mas.  4.  R.  I.  1.  Con.'  3.  N.  Y.  3.  N.  J.  2.  K  4. 
Del  1.  Ml  3.  Virg?  5.  N.  C.  3.  S.  G.  3.  Geo.  2.  making  in  the 
whole  36. 


'  Tlie  word  "  upon  "  is  subctitutrd  in  the  trantcript  (or  "  on." 
■  The  word  "  doeii "  U  subntitutt^  In  the  tnniicript  for  "  U." 

•  The  word  "  a  "  U  substituted  in  the  transcript  tor  "  the." 

*  The  word  "  that "  U  omitted  tn  the  transcript. 


254      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

MI  WoaoN  seconds  the  motion 

M'  Dayton.  The  smaUer  States  can  never  give  np  their  equality. 
For  himself  he  would  in  no  event  jneld  that  security  for  their  rights 

W  Sherman  urged  the  equality  of  votes  not  so  much  as  a 
security  for  the  small  States;  as  for  the  State  Gov",  which  could  not 
be  preserved  unless  they  were  represented  &  had  a  negative  in  the 
Gen.'  Government.  He  had  no  objection  to  the  members  in  the  2? 
b  voting  per  capita,  as  had  been  suggested  by  [M^  Gerry] 

M'.  Madison  concurred  in  this  motion  of  Ml  Finkney  as  a  reason- 

able  compromise.  . 

W.  Gerrt  said  he  should  like  the  motion,  but  could  see  no  hope 
of  Buccess.  An  accomodation  must  take  place,  and  it  was  apparent 
from  what  had  been  seen  that  it  could  not  do  so  on  the  ground  of 
the  motion.  He  was  utterly  against  a  partial  confederacy,  leaving 
other  States  to  accede  or  not  accede ;  as  had  been  intimated, 

M'  King  said  it  was  always  with  regret  that  he  differed  from  his 
colleagues,  but  it  was  his  duty  to  differ  from  [W.  Gerry]  on  this 
occasion.    He  considered  the  proposed  Government  as  substantially 
and  formally,  a  General  and  National  Government  over  the  people 
of  America.    There  never  will  be  a  case  in  which  it  wiU  act  as  a 
federal  Government  on  the  States  and  not  on  the  individual  Citizens. 
And  is  it  not  a  clear  principle  that  in  a  free  Gov*  those  who  are 
to  be  the  objects  of  a  Gov.'  ought  to  influence  the  operations  of  itT 
What  reason  can  be  assigned  why  the  same  rule  of  representation 
6«  not  prevail  in  the  2".  branch^  as  in  the  l!«t    He  could  conceive 
none     On  the  contrary,  every  view  of  the  subject  that  presented 
itself,  seemed  to  require  it.    Two  objections  had  been  raised  ag*  it: 
drawn  1 »  from  the  terms  of  the  existing  compact  2.»  from  a  sup- 
posed danger  to  the  smaUer  States.— As  to  the  first  objection  he 
thought  it  inapplicable.     According  to  the  existing  confederation, 
the  rule  by  which  the  public  burdens  is  to  be  apportioned  is  fixed, 
and  must  be  pursued.    In  the  proposed  Goverm*  it  can  not  be  fixed, 
because  indirect  taxation  is  to  be  substituted.    The  Legislature  there- 
fore  will  have  full  di-cretion  to  impose  taxes  in  such  modes  &  pro- 
portions as  tiiey  may  judge  expedient    As  to  the  2«  objection   he 
thought  it  of  as  little  weight.    The  GenJ  GovemJ  can  never  wiA  to 
intrude  on  the  State  Govern*    There  could  be  no  temptation.    None 
had  been  pointed  out.     In  order  to  prevent  the  interference  of 


•In  the  tranwript  the  word  "bwnch"  is  transposed,  making  the  phrase 
'"'i;;Tftc"M"Vd"'2"Tre'cha„ged  to  "flr.f  and  "«=c«adly"  In  the 
tranicript 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JULY  14,  1787 


255 


meastires  which  aeemed  most  likely  to  happen,  he  would  have  no 
olj.etion  to  throwing  all  the  State  debts  into  the  federal  debt,  mak- 
ing one  aggregate  debt  of  about  70,000,000  of  dollars,  and  leaving 
it  to  be  discharged  by  the  GenJ  Qov.' — According  to  the  idea  of  secur- 
ing the  State  Govf  there  ought  to  he  three  distinct  legislative 
branches.  The  21  was  admitted  to  be  necessary,  and  was  actually 
meant,  to  check  the  If  branch,  to  give  more  wisdom,  tyntem,  &  sta- 
bility to  the  Gov!  and  ought  clearly  as  it  was  to  operate  on  the 
people  to  be  proportioned  to  them.  For  the  third  purpose  of  secur- 
ing the  States,  there  ought  then  to  be  a  31  branch,  representing  the 
States  as  such,  and  guarding  by  equal  votes  their  rights  &  dignities. 
He  would  not  pretend  to  be  as  thoroughly  acquainted  with  his  im- 
mediate Constituents  as  his  colleagues,  but  it  was  his  firm  belief 
that  Mas*?  would  never  be  prevailed  on  to  yield  to  an  equality  of 
votes.  In  N.  York  (he  was  sorry  to  be  obliged  to  say  any  thing 
relative  to  that  State  in  the  absence  of  its  representatives,  but  the 
occasion  required  it) ,  in  N.  York  he  had  seen  that  the  most  powerful 
argument  used  by  the  considerate  opponents  to  the  grant  of  the 
Impost  to  Congress,  was  pointed  agf  the  viccious  constitution  of 
Cong;  with  regard  to  representation  &  suffrage.  He  was  sure  that 
no  Gov!  could  ^  last  that  was  not  founded  on  just  principles.  He  pre- 
fer'd  the  doing  of  nothing,  to  an  allowance  of  an  equal  vote  to 
all  the  States.  It  would  be  better  he  thought  to  submit  to  a  little 
more  confusion  &  convulsion,  than  to  submit  to  such  an  evil.  It 
vaa  difficult  to  say  what  the  views  of  different  Gentlemen  might  be. 
Perhaps  there  migLt  be  some  who  thought  no  Qovemm.*  co-extensive 
with  Uie  U.  States  could  be  established  with  a  hope  of  its  answering 
the  purpose.  Perhaps  there  miiHit  be  other  fixed  opinions  incom- 
patible with  the  object  we  were  *  pursuing.  If  there  were,  he  thought 
it  but  candid  that  Gentlemen  would '  speak  out  that  we  mi^t  under- 
stand one  another. 

MT  STRoyo.  The  Convention  had  been  much  divided  in  opinion. 
In  order  to  avoid  the  consequences  of  it,  an  accomodation  had 
been  proposed.  A  Committee  had  been  appointed :  and  though  some 
of  the  members  of  it  were  averse  to  an  equality  of  votes,  a  Report 
has  *  been  made  in  favor  of  it.  It  is  agreed  on  aU  hands  that  Con- 
gress are  nearly  at  an  end.  If  no  Accomodation  takes  place,  the 
Union  itself  must  soon  be  dissolved.    It  has  been  suggested  that  if 


■  Tbe  word  "  wonld "  is  tnbttitntcd  in  tlie  trantcript  for  '■  could." 
'  The  word  "  «re  "  it  tulwtitutcd  in  tlie  truMcript  for  "  were." 
'  Thp  word  "  should  "  is  nilmtituted  in  tlie  tranicript  for  "  would." 
*The  word  "liad"  ia  siibrtitntcd  in  the  tnuucr^t  for  "kas." 


256      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

we  can  not  come  to  any  general  agreement,  the  principal  States  may 
form  &  recommend  a  scheme  of  Ctovemment.  But  will  the  small 
States  in  that  case  ever  accede '  it.  Is  it  probable  that  the  large 
States  themselves  will  under  such  circumstances  embrace  and  ratify 
it.  He  thought  the  small  States  had  made  a  considerable  coneession 
in  the  article  of  money  bills ;  and  that  they  might  naturally  expect 
some  concessions  on  the  other  side.  From  this  view  of  the  matter 
he  was  compelled  to  give  his  vote  for  the  Report  taken  all  together. 

M'.  Madison  exprened  his  apprehensions  that  if  the  proper  foun- 
dation of  Qovenm'-  was  destroyed,  by  substituting  an  equality  in 
place  of  a  proportional  Representation,  no  proper  superstructure 
would  be  raised.  If  the  small  States  really  wish  for  a  Government 
armed  with  the  powers  necessary  to  secure  their  liberties,  and  to 
enforce  obedience  on  the  larger  members  as  well  as  on*  themselves 
he  could  not  help  thinking  them  extremely  mistaken  in  their  ■  means. 
He  reminded  them  of  the  consequences  of  laying  the  existing  con- 
federation *  on  improper  principles.  All  the  principal  parties  to  its 
compilation,  joined  immediately  in  mutilating  &  fettering  the  Oov- 
ernm!  in  such  a  manner  that  it  has  disappointed  every  hope  placed 
on  it  He  appealed  to  the  doctrine  &  arguments  used  by  them- 
selves on  a  former  occasion.  It  had  been  very  properly  observed  by 
[W  Patterson]  that  Representation  was  an  expedient  by  which  the 
meeting  of  the  people  themselves  was  rendered  unnecessary;  and 
that  the  representatives  ought  therefore  to  bear  a  proportion  to  the 
votes  which  their  constituents  if  convened,  would  respectively  have. 
Was  not  this  remark  as  applicable  to  one  branch  of  the  Represents' 
tion  as  to  the  other  t  But  it  had  been  said  that  the  OovemI  would 
in  its  operation  be  partly  federal,  partly  national;  that  altho'  in 
the  latter  respect  the  Representatives  of  the  people  ought  to  be  in 
proportion  to  the  people:  yet  in  the  former  it  ought  to  be  aeeord- 
ing  to  the  number  of  States.  If  there  was  any  solidity  in  this  dis- 
tinction he  was  ready  to  abide  by  it,  if  there  was  none  it  ou(^t 
to  be  abandoned.  In  all  cases  where  the  Gen!  (Jovemml  is  to  act 
on  the  people,  let  the  people  be  represented  and  the  votes  be  pro- 
portional. In  all  cases  where  the  Govern.*  is  to  act  on  the  States  as 
such,  in  like  manner  as  Congf  now  act  on  them,  let  the  States  be 
represented  &  the  votes  be  equal.  This  was  the  true  ground  of 
compromise  if  there  was  any  ground  at  all.  But  he  denied  that  there 
was  any  ground.     He  called  for  a  single  instance   in   which  the 


•  The  word  "  to  "  it  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

•  Thp  word  "•  on  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

■  The  word  "  the  "  ia  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  their.' 
•The  transcript  italicizes  the  worda  "existing  confederation.' 


SESSION  OP  SATUBDAT,  JULY  14,  1787 


257 


Gen.'  Gov!  was  not  to  operate  on  the  people  mdiyidaally.  The  prac- 
ticability of  making  lawa,  with  coercive  Mnctions,  for  the  States  as 
Political  bodies,  had  been  exploded  or  all  hands.  He  observed  that 
the  people  of  the  large  States  would  in  some  way  or  other  secure 
to  themselves  a  weight  proportioned  to  the  importance  accruing  from 
their  superior  numbers.  If  they  could  not  effect  it  by  a  proportional 
representation  in  the  OnM  they  would  probably  accede  to  no  Qovl 
which  did  not  in*  great  measure  depend  fw  its  efficacy  on  their 
voluntary  cooperation;  in  which  case  they  would  indirectly  secure 
their  object.  The  existing  confederacy  proved  that  whtre  the  Acts 
of  the  Gen!  Gov?  were  to  be  executed  by  the  particular  Qov^.  the 
letter  had  a  weight  in  propwtion  to  their  importance.  No  one  would 
e^.y  that  dth<*r  in  Cong!  or  out  of  Cong!  Delaware  had  equal  weight 
with  Pensylv  If  the  latter  was  to  supply  ten  times  as  much  money 
as  the  former,  and  no  compulsion  could  be  used,  it  was  of  ten  times 
more  importance,  that  she  should  voluntarily  furnish  the  supply. 
In  the  Dutch  confederacy  the  votes  of  the  Provinces  were  equal. 
But  Holland  which  supplies  about  half  the  money,  governs'  the 
whole  republic.  He  enumerated  the  objections  agt'  an  equality  of 
votes  in  the  2^  branch,  notwithstanding  the  proportional  representa- 
tion in  the  first.  1.  the  minority  could  negative  the  will  of  the  ma- 
jority of  the  people.  2.  they  could  extort  measures  by  making  them 
a  condition  of  their  assent  to  other  necessary  measures.  3.  they 
could  obtrude  measures  on  the  majority  by  virtue  of  the  peculiar 
powers  which  would  be  vested  in  the  Senate.  4.  the  evil  instead  of 
beinf;  cured  by  time,  would  increase  with  every  new  State  that  should 
be  admitted,  as  they  must  all  be  admitted  on  the  principle  of  equality. 
5.  the  perpetuity  it  would  give  to  the  preponderance  of  the  North? 
ag".'  the  South?  Scale  was  a  serious  consideration.  It  seemed  now 
to  be  pretty  well  understood  that  the  real  difference  of  interests 
lay,  not  between  the  large  &  small  but  between  the  N.  &  South? 
States.  The  institution  of  slavery  &  its  consequences  formed  the 
line  of  discrimination.  There  were  5  States  on  the  South,*  8  on  the 
North?  side  of  this  line.  Should  a  proport'  representation  take  place 
it  was  true,  the  N.  side*  would  still  outnumber  the  other;  but  not  in 
the  same  degree,  at  this  time;  ind  every  day  would  tend  towards 
an  equilibrium. 

M'.  Wilson  would  add  a  few  words  only.    If  equality  in  the  21 


*  The  word  "  a  "  i«  here  inwrted  in  the  tranterirt. 

*  The  word  "  aoTcmed  "  U  lubstituted  In  the  transcript  for  "  govem§." 
'The  word  "Southern"  is  substituted  in  the  tranicript  for  "Soath." 

*  The  word  "  side  "  is  omittad  in  the  tranwsript. 


258      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  COXVENTION  OP  1787 

branch  was  an  error  that  time  would  correct,  he  Hhould  be  leas 
anxious  to  exclude  it  being  sensible  that  perfection  was  unattainable 
in  any  plan ;  but  being  a  fundamental  and  a  perpetual  error,  it  ought 
by  all  means  to  be  avoided.    A  vice  in  the  Representation,  like  an 
error  in  the  first  concoction,  must  be  followed  by  disease,  convulaiona, 
and  finally  death  itself.    The  justice  of  the  general  principle  of  pro- 
portional representation  has  not  in  argument  at  least  been  yet  con- 
tradicted.   But  it  is  said  that  a  departure  from  it  so  far  as  to  give 
the  States  an  equal  vote  in  one  branch  of  the  Legislature  is  essential 
to  their  preservation.    He  had  considered  this  position  maturely,  but 
could  not  see  its  application.    That  the  States  ought  to  be  preserved 
he  admitted.    But  does  it  follow  that  an  equality  of  votes  is  neees- 
sarj-  for  the  purpose?    Is  there  any  reason  to  suppose  that  if  their 
preservation  should  depend  more  on  the  large  than  on  the  small 
States  the  security  of  the  States  agJ'  the  Gen!  Government  would  be 
diminished  t    Are  the  large  States  less  attached  to  their  existence, 
more  likely  to  commit  suicide,  than  the  small?    An  equal  vote  then 
is  not  necessary  as  far  as  he  can  conceive :  and  is  liable  among  other 
objections  to  this  insuperable  one:  The  great  fault  of  the  existing 
confederacy  is  its  inactivity.     It  has  never  been  a  complaint  agf 
Cong:  that  they  governed  overmuch.    The  complaint  has  been  that 
they  have  governed  too  little.    To  remedy  this  defect  we  were  sent 
here.    Shall  we  effect  the  cure  by  establishing  an  equality  of  votes 
as  is  proposed?    no:  this  very  equality  carries  us  directly  to  Con- 
gress: to  the  system  which  it  is  our  duty  to  rectify.     The  small 
States  cannot  indeed  act,  by  virtue  of  this  equality,  but  they  may 
controul  the  Gov.*  as  they  have  done  in  Cong!    This  very  measure 
is  here  prosecuted  by  a  minority  of  the  people  of  America.    Is  then 
the  object  of  the  Convention  likely  to  be  accomplished  in  this  way? 
Will  not  our  Constituents  say?  we  sent  you  to  form  an  efSeient 
Gov;  and  you  have  given  us  one  more  complex  indeed,  but  having 
all  the  weakness  of  the  former  Govern?  He  was  anxious  for  uniting 
all  the  States  under  one  Qovemt    He  knew  there  were  some  respect- 
able men  who  preferred  three  confederacies,  united  by  offensive  & 
defensive  alliances.    Many  things  may  be  plausibly  said,  some  things 
may  be  justly  said,  in  favor  of  such  a  project.    He  could  not  how- 
ever concur  in  it  himself;  but  he  thought  nothing  so  pernicious  as 
bad  first  principles. 

M'  EusKwoRTH  asked  two  questions  one  of  M'.  "Wilson,  whether 
he  had  ever  seen  a  good  measure  fail  in  Cong!  for  want  of  a  ma- 
jority of  States  in  iti  favor?  He  had  himself  never  known  such  an 
instance:  the  other  of  W  Madison  whether  a  negative  lodged  with 


•El^'M 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JULY  16,  1787 

tlie  majority  of  the  States  even  the  smallest,  could  be  more  dangeroiu 
than  the  qualified  negative  proposed  to  be  lodged  in  a  single  Ezeea- 
tive  Magistrate,  who  most  be  taken  from  some  one  State? 

W.  Shtouan,  signified  that  his  expectation  was  that  the  Gen! 
Legislature  would  in  some  cases  act  on  the  federal  principie,  of 
requiring  quotas.  But  he  thought  it  ought  to  be  empowered  to 
carry  their  own  plans  into  execution,  if  the  States  should  fail  to 
supply  their  respective  quotas. 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  W.  Pinkney's  motion  for  allow* 
ing  N.  H.  2.  Mas.  4.  &o — ^it  passed  in  the  negative 

r^Ias.  no.  W  King  ay.  Ml  Ohorum  absent.  Con?  no.  N.  J.  no. 
P!  ay.   Del.  no.   M".  ay.   V?  ay.    N.  C.  na   a  C.  ay    Geo.  na» 

Adjourned. 


Monday.    Jolt  16.    In  Convbntion 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  the  whole  Report  as  amended  & 
including  the  equality  of  votes  in  the  2?  branch,  it  passed  in  the 
Affirmative. 

Mas.  divided  M^  (Jerry,  Ml  Strong,  ay.  Mt  King  Mt  Qhorum  no. 
Con!  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pen?  no.  Del.  ay.  M?  ay.  Y*  no.  N.  C.  ay. 
M^  Spaight  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

[Here  enter  the  whole  in  the  words  entered  in  the  Journal 
July  16] » 

The  whole,  thus  passed  is  in  the  words  following  viz 

"  Resolved  that  in  the  original  formation  of  the  Legislature  of  the 
U.  S.  the  first  branch  thereof  shall  consist  of  sixty  fiv(>  members,  of 
which  number  N.  Hampshire  shall  send  3.  Mass?  8.  Rh.  I.  1.  Conn! 
5.  N.  Y.  6.  N.  J.  4.  Pen*  8.  Del.  1.  Mary?  6.  Virgf  10.  N.  C.  5. 
S.  C.  5.  Geo.  3. — But  as  the  present  situation  of  the  States  may 
probably  alter  in  the  number  of  their  inhabitants,  the  Legislature 
of  the  U.  S.  shall  be  authorized  from  time  to  time  to  apportion  the 
number  of  Rep!;  and  in  case  any  of  the  States  shall  hereafter  be 
<iivided,  or  enlarged  by,  addition  of  territory,  or  any  two  or  more 
States  united,  or  any  new  States  created  with*  the  limits  of  the 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  " Penngylvanla,  Maryland,  Virginia, 
South  Carolina,  aye — 4;  Masaachusetts,  [Mr.  King,  aye,  Mr.  Oorham,  absent], 
(.unnwticut.  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 6." 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware, 
Mrirrland,  North  Carolina  [Mr.  Spaight,  no],  aye— 8;  Pennsylvan'ia,  Virginia, 
Soulli  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 4;  MaasachusetU,  divided,  [Mr.  Gerrr,  Mr.  Strong, 
«yi':  Mr.  King.  Mr.  Gorham,  no.]  " 

'  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  Ihe  word  "  within  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  the  word  "  with." 


260      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


U.  S.  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  shall  pomess  authority  to  regulate 
the  number  of  i?«p!  in  any  of  the  foregoing  cases,  upon  the  prin- 
ciple of  their  number  of  inhabitants,  according  to  the  provisions 
hereafter  mentioned,  namely  * — provided  always  that  representation 
ought  to  be  proportioned  according  to  direct  taxation;  and  in  order 
to  ascertain  the  alteration  in  the  direct  taxation,  which  may  be  re- 
quired from  time  to  time  by  the  changes  in  the  relative  circum- 
stances of  the  States — 

Resolved,  that  a  Census  be  taken  within  six  years  from  the  Vf 
meeting  of  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  and  once  within  the  term  of 
every  10  years  afterwards  of  all  the  inhabitants  of  the  U.  S.  in  the 
manner  and  according  to  the  ratio  recommended  by  Congress  in 
their  Rosdution  of  April  18.'  1783,  and  that  the  Leipslature  of  the 
U.  S.  shall  proportion  the  direct  taxation  accordingly — 

' '  Resolved,  that  all  bills  for  raising  or  appropriating  money,  and 
for  fixing  the  salaries  of  officers  of  the  Gov?  of  the  U.  S.  shall 
originate  in  the  first  branch  of  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  and 
shni'  not  be  altered  or  amended  in  the  2<!  branch:  and  that  no  money 
sha  be  drawn  from  the  public  Treasury,  but  in  pursuance  of  appro- 
pria  ions  to  be  originated  in  the  11'  branch. 

Resolvl  that  in  the  2''  branch  of  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S. 
each  State  shall  have  an  equ  Ivote." 


The  6?"  Resol:  in  the  ' 
which  had  been  postr  " 
was  now  resumed,    se 

The  1!«  member  • '  at 
Legislative  Rights  v»  ted 
agreed  to  nem.  Con 

The  next,*  "  A  a  morpf^ 
separate  States  '  tc  incom 
U.  S.  may  be  ini  -'^'  r>ted  by 
being  read  for  a  question 

Ml  BuTLEB  calls  for  some  t  anation  of  the  extent  of  this  power: 
particulai'ly  of  the  word  incompi  *ent.  The  vagueness  of  the  terms 
rendered  it  impossible  for  any  precise  judgment  to  be  formed. 

MT  Qhoruh.  The  vagueness  of  the  terms  constitutes  the  pro- 
priet5'  of  them.  We  are  now  establishing  general  principles,  to  be 
extended  hereafter  into  details  which  will  be  precise  &  explicit. 

W.  RuTLiDOE,  urged  the  objection  started  by  MT  Butler  and  moved 
that  the  clause  should  be  committed  to  the  end  that  a  specification 


>  ^n  from  the  Com?  of  the  whole  House, 
jrder  to  consider  the  7  &  8*  Resol?*: 

sol" 

^  Nat'  Legislature  ought  to  possess  the 
a   Cong*,  by  the  Confederation."  wm 

to  legislate  in  all  cases  to  which  the 
nt;  or  n  which  the  harmony  of  the 
he  e-"  <    se  of  individual  legislation," 


•  The  word  "  namely  "'  '.-i  omitted  in  tLe  trtnccript. 

'  The  date   '  April  18  "  i«  changed  to  "  the  cighteentb  of  April "  in  the  tnm- 
seript. 

'  The  words  "  The  1;'  member  "  are  omitted  in  the  tranacript. 

•  The  word*  "  The  next "  are  ooiitted  in  the  tranacript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JULY  16,  1787 

of  the  poweri  eompriied  in  the  general  terms,  might  be  reported. 
On  the  question  for  a'  commitment,  the  States'  were  equally 

divided 

Mas.  no.    ConJ  ay.    N.  J.  no.    P?  no.    Del.  no.    M<  ay.    V!  ay. 
N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay :  •   So  it  was  lost. 

Mr  Randolph.  The  vote  of  this  morning  [involving  an  equality 
of  suffrage  in  21  branch]  had  embarraaaed  the  business  extremely. 
All  the  powers  given  in  the  Report  from  the  Com*  of  the  whole, 
were  founded  on  the  supposition  that  a  Proportional  represenUtion 
was  to  prevaU  in  both  branches  of  the  Legislature.  When  he  came 
here  this  morning  his  purpose  waa  to  have  offered  some  propositions 
that  might  if  possible  have  united  a  great  majority  of  votes,  and 
particularly  might  provide  agf«  the  danger  suspected  on  the  part 
of  the  smaller  States,  by  enumerating  the  cases  in  which  it  might 
lie,  and  allowing  an  equality  of  votes  in  such  cases.*  But  finding 
from  the  preceding  vote  that  they  persist  in  demanding  an  equal 
vote  in  all  cases,  that  they  have  succeeded  in  obtaining  it,  and  that 
N.  York  if  present  would  probably  be  on  the  same  side,  he  could 
not  but  think  we  were  unprepared  to  discuss  this  subject  further. 
It  will  probably  be  in  vain  to  come  to  any  final  decision  with  a  bare 
majority  on  either  side.  For  these  reasons  he  wished  the  Convention 
might «  adjourn,  that  the  large  States  might  consider  the  steps  proper 
to  be  taken  in  the  present  solemn  crisis  of  the  business,  and  that  the 
small  States  might  also  deliberate  on  the  means  of  conciliation. 

Mr  Patterson,  thought  with  M?  R.  that  it  was  high  time  for  the 
Convention  to  adjourn  that  the  rule  of  secrecy  ought  to  be  rescinded, 
and  that  our  Constituents  should  be  consulted.  No  conciliation  could 
be  admissible  on  the  part  of  the  smaller  States  on  any  other  ground 
than  that  of  an  equality  of  votes  in  the  21  branch.  If  Mr  Randolph 
would  reduce  to  form  his  motion  for  an  adjournment  sine  die,  he 
would  second  it  with  all  his  heart. 

Gea'  PiNKKiT  wished  to  know  of  W.  R.  whether  he  meant  an 
adjournment  sine  die,  or  only  an  a<ljoumment  for  the  day.  If  the 
former  was  meant,  it  differed  much  from  Mb  idea.  He  could  not 
think  of  going  to  S.  Carolina  and  returning  again  to  this  place.    Be- 

•  See  the  p»per  in  •  appendix  communicated  by  Mf  R.  to  J.  M.  July  lO.' 

'  Tlie  word  "  a  "  1»  omitted  iu  the  transcript .  ,, 

•The  word  "vote."  is  mibatitated  ir  the  transcript  for     State. 

•  tn  ♦he  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Connecticut,  Marrland,  Virginia,  South 
Carolin,,  ^rXar<-5i  Massachu.ettr,.  New  J.r«y.  P.m..ylvania,  Delaware, 
North  Carolina,  no— 6."  ,  .     ..     ^  t  * 

•  Thi-  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tranwript.  ^^ 
■The  transcript   here   in«rti  "No.-"     For   the  text   of   tLi.  px>er   Me 

Appendix  to  Debate.,  VI,  p.  818.  j   *  «  .  <'  -.i-k*  » 

■  The  word  "  to  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for     might. 


262      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

•ides  it  wu  chimerical  to  luppoae  that  the  States  if  conaulted  woald 
ever  accord  separately,  and  beforehand. 

M!  Randolph,  had  never  entertained  an  idea  of  an  adjournment 
sine  die ;  &  was  sorry  that  his  meaning  had  been  so  readily  &  strangely 
miainterpreted.  He  had  in  view  merely  an  adjournment  till  to- 
morrow, in  order  that  some  conciliatory  experiment  might  if  possible 
be  devised,  and  that  in  case  the  smaller  States  should  continue  to 
hold  back,  the  larger  might  then  take  such  measures,  he  would  not 
say  what,  as  might  be  necessary. 

M*.  Pattebson  seconded  the  adjournment  till  tomorrow,  as  an 
opportunity  seemed  to  be  wished  by  the  larger  States  to  deliberate 
farther  on  conciliatory  expedients. 

On  the  question  for  adjourning  till  tomorrow,  the  States  were 
equally  divided. 

Mas.  no.  Con.'  no.  N.  J.  ay.  I*  ay.  Del.  no.  M*  ay.  V»  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.^    So  it  was  lost. 

M'.  Broomk  thought  it  his  duty  to  declare  his  opinion  ag**  an 
adjournment  sine  die,  as  had  been  urged  by  W.  Patterson.  Such  a 
measure  he  thought  would  be  fatal.  Something  must  be  done  by 
the  Convention,  tho'  it  should  be  by  a  bare  majority. 

Mr  Gerrt  observed  that  Mas^  was  opposed  to  an  adjournment, 
because  they  saw  no  new  ground  of  compromise.  But  as  it  seemed 
to  be  the  opinion  of  so  many  States  that  a  trial  sh''-  be  made,  the 
State  would  now  concur  in  the  adjoumm^ 

MT  RuTUDQE  could  see  no  need  of  an  adjourn.'  because  he  could 
see  no  chance  of  a  compromise.  The  little  States  were  fixt.  They 
had  repeatedly  &  solemnly  declared  themselves  to  be  so.  All  that 
the  large  States  then  had  to  do,  was  to  decide  whether  they  would 
yield  or  not.  For  his  part  he  conceived  that  altho'  we  could  not  do 
what  we  thought  best,  in  itself,  we  ought  to  do  something.  Had  we  not 
better  keep  the  Gov.'  up  a  little  longer,  hoping  that  another  Con- 
vention will  aupply  our  omissions,  than  abandon  every  thing  to 
hazard.  Our  Constituents  will  be  very  little  satisfied  with  us  if  we 
take  the  latter  course. 

ir.  Raxpolph  &  M:  Kino  renewed  the  motion  to  adjourn  till 
tomorrow. 

On  the  question,  ilas.  ay.  Con.'  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  no. 
MO  ay.    V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  di\-o.' 

Adjourned 


'  In  the  transcript  tho  vote  read* :  "  Now  Jersey,  PennsylvanU,  Maryland, 
Virginia,  North  Carolina.  «y« — 6;  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Delaware,  South 
Carolina,  Oeorgia,  no--5." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  New  .Tersey,  Pennsyl- 
vania. Maryland.  VirKiiiia.  N'nrth  Carolina,  .South  Carolina,  aye — 7;  Connecticut, 
Delaware,  no— 2;  Getirgia.  divided." 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JULY  17.  1787 


263 


On  the  morning  following  before  the  hour  of  the  convtntioii  • 
number  of  the  members  from  the  larger  Statet,  \Kf  oomraon  igr^ 
ment  met  for  the  purpose  of  conaulting  on  the  proper  rtept  to  b« 
taken  in  conwquence  of  the  vote  in  favor  of  an  equal  RepreaenUtion 
in  the  2^  branch,  and  the  apparent  inflexibility  of  the  amaller  Statea 
on  that  point.    Several  membera  from  the  Utter  SUtea  alao  attended. 
The  time  waa  wasted  in  vague  converaation  on  the  aubject,  without 
any  specific  propoaitlon  or  agreement.    It  appeared  indeed  that  the 
opiniona  of  the  members  who  diaUked  the  equality  of  votea  differed 
80'  much  aa  to  the  importance  of  that  point,  and  aa  to  the  policy  of 
risking  a  failure  of  any  general  act  of  the  Convention,  by  inflexibly 
opposing  it.     Several  of  them  auppoaing  that  no  good  Governn^ 
oould  or  would  be  boUt  on  that  foundation,  and  that  aa  a  division 
of  the  Convention  into  two  opinions  waa  unavoidable;  it  would  be 
better  that  the  aide  comprising  the  principal  SUtea,  and  a  majority 
of  the  people  of  America,  ahould  propoae  a  acheme  of  Gov?  to  tha 
States,  than  that  a  scheme  should  be  proposed  on  the  other  aide, 
would  have  concnrred  in  a  firm  opposition  to  the  amaUer  States,  and 
in  a  separate  recommendation,  if  eventually  necessary.   Others  aeemed 
inclined  to  yield  to  the  amaUer  Statea,  and  to  concur  in  auch  an 
act  however  imperfect  &  exceptionable,  as  might  be  agreed  on  by  the 
Convention  aa  a  body,  tho*  decided  by  a  bare  majority  of  States 
and  by  a  minority  of  the  people  of  the  U.  SUtes.    It  is  probable  that 
the  result  of  this  consultation  aatisfled  the  amaller  States  that  they 
had  nothing  to  apprehend  from  a  union  of  the  larger,  in  any  plan 
whatever  ag<  the  equality  of  votea  in  the  21  branch. 


Tdbdat  July  17.    in  Convintiok 

M!  Govern!  Morris,  moved  to  reconaider  the  whole  Resolution 
agreed  to  yesterday  concerning  the  constitution  of  the  2  branchea  of 
the  Legislature.  His  object  was  to  bring  the  House  to  a  considera- 
tion in  the  abstract  of  the  powers  necessary  to  be  vested  in  the 
general  Government.  It  had  been  said.  Let  us  know  how  the  GovJ 
is  to  be  modeUed,  and  then  we  can  determine  what  powers  can  bo 
ptoperiy  given  to  it.  He  thought  the  most  eligible  course  waa,  first 
to  determine  on  the  necessary  powers,  and  then  so  to  modify  the 
Govern.'  as  that  it  might  be  justly  &  property  enabled  to  administer 
them.  He  feared  if  we  proceeded  to  a  consideration  of  the  powers, 
■  The  word  "  »o"  U  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


N4      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

whilst  the  vote  of  yesterday  including  an  eqaality  of  the  StatM  ia 
thf  21  branch,  renaincd  in  force,  a  reference  to  it,  either  mental 
or  expressed,  would  mix  itself  with  the  merits  of  ••rery  question 
ronceming  the  powers.— this  motion  whs  not  seconded.  {It  waa 
probably  approved  by  several  members,  who  either  dcupaired  of 
succeaa,  or  were  apprehensive  that  the  attempt  would  inflame  th« 
jealouaiea  of  the  smaller  States.] 

The  6^  Reaol?  in  the  Report  of  the  Com?  of  the  Whole  relating 
to  the  powers,  which  had  been  postponed  in  order  to  consider  the 
7  &  8*  relating  to  the  constitution  of  the  Nat'  Legislature,  waa  now 
resumed. 

JT.  Sherman  oi)served  that  it  would  be  difBcult  to  draw  the 
line  between  the  powers  of  the  Gen!  Legislatures,  and  those  to  be 
left  with  the  States ;  that  he  did  not  like  the  definition  contained  in 
the  Resolution,  and  proposed  in  '  place  of  '  the  words  "  of "  individual 
Legislation  "  line  i*  inclusive,  to  insert  "  to  make  laws  binding  on 
the  people  of  the  United  States  in  all  cases  which  may  concern  the 
common  interests  of  the  Union ;  but  not  to  interfere  with  the  Gov- 
ernment of  the  individual  States  in  any  matters  of  internal  police 
which  respect  the  Govt  of  such  States  only,  and  wherein  the  general 
welfare  of  the  T'.  States  is  not  concerned." 

W.  Wilson  2*r*  the  amendment  as  better  expressing  the  general 
principle. 

M-  Gov!  Morris  opposed  it.  The  internal  police,  as  it  would 
be  called  &  understood  by  the  States  ought  to  be  infringed  in  many 
cases,  as  in  the  case  of  paper  money  &  other  tricks  by  which  Citizens 
of  other  States  may  be  affected. 

in  Sherman,  in  explanation  of  his  idea  read  an  enumeration  of 
powers,  including  the  power  of  levying  taxes  on  trade,  but  not  the 
power  of  direct  taxation. 

M'.  Qov'.  Morris  remarked  the  omission,  and  inferred  that  for  the 
deficiencies  of  taxes  on  consumption,  it  must  have  been  the  meaning 
of  MI  Sherman,  that  the  Gen!  Gov?  should  recur  to  quotas  ft  requisi- 
tions, which  are  subversive  of  the  idea  of  Gov.' 

M'.  Sherman  acknowledged  that  his  enumeration  did  not  include 
direct  taxation.  Some  provision  he  supposed  must  be  made  for  sup- 
plying the  defieiency  of  other  taxation,  but  he  had  not  formed  any. 

On »  Question  of  Mr  Sherman 's  motion,  it  passed  in  the  negative 


its  "  is  here  inierted  In  the  trangrript. 

"of"  i«  rrotied  out  in  the  trantcript  and  "to"  ii  writtas 


•  The  word 
•The  word 

above  it.  ,  , 

» The  word  "  of  "  in  omitted  in  the  tranwript 
•The  word  and  figure  "line  4"  are  rrosseif  out  in  the  trantcript. 
■  The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY.  JULY  17,  1787 

Mm.  no.    Cod',  ay.    N.  J.  no.    Pr  no.    D«l.  no.    Ml  ty.    Vf  no. 

N,  ('.  wo.    S.  C.  no.   G«o.  no.»  .    .      - .  v 

MI  Bedford  moved  that  the  2*.  member  of  Reeolution  6.  be  to 
altered  M  to  read  ''and  moreover  to  legUlate  in  all  cawe  for  the 
KenernI  intereeta  of  the  Union,  and  aim  in  thoee  to  which  the  8to»*i 
are  ieparately '  incompetent,"  or  in  which  the  harmony  of  the  U. 
Staten  may  be  interrupted  by  the  exerciM  of  indiTidnal  Legialation. 
M'.  Oovf  MoMUB  2^  the  motion 

Ml  Hahdou-h.  Thia  ia  a  formidable  idea  indeed.  It  involvee  the 
power  of  violating  all  the  lawe  and  conititutiona  of  the  Statee,  and 
of  intermeddling  with  their  police.  The  laat  member  of  the  lentence 
ia  giRo  saperfluoui,  being  included  in  the  flrat. 

M:  BtttroKt.  It  is  not  more  extenaive  or  formidable  than  the 
clause  as  it  atanda:  no  atatt  being  tepantely  competent  to  legislate 
for  the  gentral  intenst  of  the  Union. 

On*  queation  for  agreeing  to  M'.  Bedford's  motion,  it  passed  m 
the  affirmative. 

Mas.  ay.  Con^  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay.  V'  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

On  the  sentence  as  amended,  it  passed  in  the  affirmative. 
Mas.  ay.    Coni  ay.    N.  J.  ay.    Pt  ay.    Del.  ay.    M"  ay.    V?  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  ^    no.    Geo.  no.* 

The  next.'  "  To  negative  all  laws  paased  by  the  several  Statea 
contravoninR  in  the  opinion  of  the  Nat:  Legislature  the  articles  of 
Union,  or  any  treaties  subsisting  under  the  authority  of  y?  Union 

Mt  Gov!  MoRRU  opposed  this  power  as  likely  to  be  terrible  to  the 
States,  and  not  necessary,  if  sufficient  Legislative  authority  ahonld 
be  given  to  the  Gen.'  Government. 

M'  Sherman  thought  it  unne<;essary,  as  the  Courts  of  the  States 
would  not  conaider  as  valid  any  law  contravening  the  Authority  of 
the  Union,  and  which  the  legialature  would  wish  to  be  negatived. 


■  In  the  tran«:ript  th.  vot«  r«d.:  "  Connecticut.  Ms'yl*"^- •jrH*;  ^^^^ 
.•hu»ptt».  New  Jersey,  PonnsTlvani.,  Delaware.  VlrgJnU,  North  C.roHn.,  South 

''"°!n;°wort.*"^.lrth  H*.olution»  sr.  .ubstituted  in  th.  tr.n«=ript  for 

" '*'";"|"he'wo*rd  ".eversllf  "  i.  .ub.tltut*d  in  the  transcript  for  "  wsparmtely." 

•  Thp  venrA  "  the  "  li  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  tranwript  the  vote  read.:   "  Ma.«iehu«ett.,  New  J«»ey.  Pennayl- 
rania.  Delaware!  Maryland.  North  Carolina.  .y.H-«i  Conn^ticut.  Virginia.  South 

''"•'iuS:^'f!:'n^t"the    -t.    r^.=    "^'^''"K^^'h  S^lClW^" 
J-rwy,  PennaylvanU,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carollns.  »y»-«. 

South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— S"       _^  .  .    ».     .         ^^ 

'  The  word  "  cUuae '  i»  here  inserted  in  the  tranwryrt.  .     „„  .  . 

•  The  phrase  "  was  then  Uken  ap  "  i»  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


MKROCOrV   tfSOlUTION   TiST   CHA«T 

lANSI  and  ISO  TEST  CHART  No    2) 


A  /1PPLIED  llVVjGE_Jnc 

^?  '6^J   tail    Mar    SUeel 

BTJ  Rochcsl...  N»«  »o'"         :»609       USA 

!jB  (716)   4B2   -0300  -  Phor>« 

^S  ;  7161   288  -  59B9  -  fo« 


266      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Mr  L.  Martin  considered  the  power  as  improper  &  inadmissible. 
Shall  all  the  laws  of  the  States  be  sent  ap  to  the  Qeai  Legislature 
before  they  shall  be  permitted  to  operate! 

W.  Madison,  considered  the  negative  on  the  laws  of  the  States 
as  essential  to  the  efficacy  &  security  of  the  Gea'  Govl  The  necessity 
of  a  general  Gov?  proceeds  from  the  propensity  of  the  States  to 
pursue  their  particular  interests  in  opposition  to  the  general  interest. 
This  propensity  will  continue  to  disturb  the  system,  unless  effec- 
tually controuled.  Nothing  short  of  a  negative  on  their  laws  will 
controul  it.  They  can*  pass  laws  which  will  accomplish  their  in- 
jurious objects  before  they  can  be  repealed  by  the  Gen?  Legislt*  or 
be '  set  aside  by  the  National  Tribunals.  Confidence  can  not  be  put 
in  the  State  Tribunals  as  guardians  of  the  National  authority  and 
interests.  In  all  the  States  these  are  more  or  less  depend*  on  the 
Legislatures.  In  Georgia  they  are  appointed  annually  by  the  Legis- 
lature. In  R.  Island  the  Judges  who  refused  to  execute  an  uncon- 
stitutional law  were  displaced,  and  others  substituted,  by  the  Legis- 
lature who  would  be*  willing  instruments  of  the  wicked  &  arbi- 
trary plans  of  their  masters.  A  power  of  negativing  the  improper 
laws  of  the  States  is  at  once  the  most  mild  &  certain  means  of  pre- 
serving the  harmony  of  the  system.  Its  utility  is  sufQciently  dis- 
played in  the  British  System.  Nothing  could  maintain  the  harmony 
&  subordination  of  the  various  parts  of  the  empire,  but  the  preroga- 
tive by  which  the  Crown,  stifles  in  the  birth  every  Act  of  every  part 
tending  to  discord  or  encroachment.  It  is  true  the  prerogative  is 
sometimes  misapplied  thro'  ignorance  or  a  partiality  to  one  particular 
part  of  y*.  empire;  but  we  have  not  the  same  reason  to  fear  such 
misapplications  in  our  System.  As  to  the  sending  all  laws  up  to 
the  Nat'  Legisl :  that  might  be  rendered  unnecessary  by  some  emana- 
tion of  the  power  into  the  States,  so  far  at  least,  as  to  give  a  temporary 
effect  to  laws  of  immediate  necessity. 

M^  Gov?  Morris  was  more  &  more  opposed  to  the  negative.  The 
proposal  of  it  would  disgust  all  the  States.  A  law  that  ought  to  be 
negatived  will  be  set  aside  in  the  Judiciary  departm.*  and  if  that 
security  should  fail ;  may  be  repealed  by  a  Nation!  law. 

Mr  Sherman.  Such  a  power  involves  a  wrong  principle,  to  wit, 
that  a  law  of  a  State  contrary  to  the  articles  of  the  Union,  would  if 
not  negatived,  be  valid  &  operative. 

IP  Pinkney  urged  the  necessity  of  the  Negative. 


•  The  word  "  will "  ie  Rubetltuted  in  the  transcript  for  "  can." 

•  The  word  "  be  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  it  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JULY  17,  1787 


m 


On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  the  power  of  negativing  laws  of 
States  &c  "  it  passed  in  the  negative. 


Mas.  ay.    G  no. 


N.  J.  no.    Pt  no.    Del.  no.    M?  no.    Vi  ay. 


N.  C.  ay.   8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

M'.  Luther  Martin  moved  the  following  resolution  "  that  the 
Legislative  acts  of  the  U.  S.  made  by  virtue  &  in  pursuance  of  the 
articles  of  Union,  and  all  Treaties  made  &  ratified  under  the  authority 
of  the  U.  S.  shall  be  the  supreme  law  of  the  respective  States,  as  far 
as  those  acts  or  treaties  shall  relate  to  the  said  States,  or  their  Citii 
zens  and  inhabitants — &  that  the  Judi'iiaries  of  the  several  States 
shall  be  bound  thereby  in  their  decisions,  any  thing  in  the  respective 
laws  of  the  individual  States  to  the  contrary  notwithstanding  "  which 
was  agreed  to  nem :  con : 

9*  Resol:  "that  Nat*  Executive  consist  of  a  single  person." 
Ag^  to  nem.  con.* 

» "  To  be  chosen  by  the  National  Legisl:  "* 

Mr  Governs  Morris  was  pointedly  ag*.'  his  being  so  chosen.  He 
will  be  the  mere  creature  of  the  Legisl :  if  appointed  &  impeachable 
by  that  body.  He  ought  to  be  elected  by  the  people  at  large,  by  the 
freeholders  o^  the  Country.  That  difficulties  attend  this  mode,  he 
admits.  But  they  have  been  found  superable  in  N.  Y.  &  in  Con? 
and  would  he  believed  be  found  so,  in  the  case  of  an  Executive  for 
the  U.  States.  If  the  people  should  elect,  they  will  never  fail  to 
prefer  some  man  of  distinguished  character,  or  services;  some  man, 
if  he  might  so  speak,  of  continental  reputation. — ^If  the  Legislature 
elect,  it  will  be  the  work  of  intrigue,  of  cabal,  and  of  faction;  it  will 
be  like  the  election  of  a  pope  by  a  conclave  of  cardinals;  real  merit 
will  rarely  be  the  title  to  the  appointment.  He  moved  to  strike  out 
"  National  Legislature  "  &  insert  "  citizens  of »  U.  S." 

Mi  Sherman  thought  that  the  sense  of  the  Nation  would  be  better 
expressed  by  the  Legislature,  than  by  the  people  at  large.  The 
latter  will  never  be  sufficiently  informed  of  characters,  and  besides 
will  never  give  a  majority  of  votes  to  any  one  man.  They  will  gen- 
erally vote  for  some  man  in  their  own  State,  and  the  largest  State 
will  have  the  best  chance  for  the  appointment.     If  the  choice  be 


•In  the  tranreript  the  vote  reads:  " MBM«chu»ett»,  Virginia,  North  Caro- 
lina, aye^3;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Sonth 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 7." 

'In  the  transcript  this  sentence  reads  as  follows:  "The  ninth  Resolution 
boinR  taken  up,  the  first  cUuse,  '  That  a  National  Executive  be  instituted,  to 
consist  of  a  single  person,'  was  agreed  to,  nem.  con." 

•  The  words  "  The  next  clause  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  words  "  being  considered  "  are  here  ine-rted  in  the  trauscript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


268      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

made  by  the  LegislT    A  majority  of  voices  may  be  made  necessary 
to  constitute  an  election. 

MT  Wn.soN.  two  arguments  have  been  urged  ag"-  an  election 
of  the  Executive  Magistrate  by  the  people.  1 » the  example  of  Poland 
where  an  Election  of  the  supreme  Magistrate  is  attended  with  the 
most  dangerous  commotions.  The  cases  he  observed  were  totally 
dissimilar.  The  Polish  nobles  have  resources  &  dependents  which 
enable  them  to  appear  in  force,  and  to  threaten  the  Republic  as  well 
as  each  other.  In  the  next  place  the  electors  all  assemble  in '  one 
place:  which  would  not  be  the  case  with  us.  The  21  argS  is  that 
a  majority  *  of  the  people  would  never  concur.  It  might  be  answered 
that  the  concurrence  of  a  majority  of*  people  is  not  a  necessary 
principle  of  election,  nor  required  as  such  in  any  of  the  States.  But 
allowing  the  objection  all  its  force,  it  may  be  obviated  by  the  ex- 
pedient used  in  Mas'!  where  the  Legislature  by »  majority  of  voices, 
decide  in  case  a  majority  of  people  do  not  concur  in  favor  of  one 
of  the  candidates.  This  would  restrain  the  choice  to  a  good  nomi- 
nation at  least,  and  prevent  in  a  great  degree  intrigue  &  cabaL  A 
particular  objection  with  him  ag!«  an  absolute  election  by  the  Legisl'? 
was  that  the  Exec;  in  that  case  would  be  too  dej  °ndent  to  stand  the 
mediator  between  the  intrigues  &  sinister  views  of  the  Representa- 
tives and  the  general  liberties  &  interests  of  the  people. 

MT  PiNKNET  did  not  expect  this  question  would  again  have  been 
brought  forward;  An  Election  by  the  people  being  liable  to  the  most 
obvious  &  striking  objections.  They  wiU  be  led  by  a  few  active  & 
designing  men.  The  most  populous  States  by  combining  in  favor 
of  the  same  individual  wiU  be  able  to  carry  their  points.  The  Natf 
Legislature  being  most  immediately  interested  in  the  laws  made  by 
themselves,  will  be  most  attentive  to  the  choice  of  a  fit  man  to  carry 
them  properly  into  execution. 

M!  Gov.  Morris.  It  is  said  that  in  case  of  an  election  by  the 
people  the  populous  States  will  combine  &  elect  whom  they  please. 
Just  the  reverse.  The  people  of  such  States  cannot  combine.  If  their 
be  any  combination  it  must  be  among  their  representatives  in  the 
Legislature.  It  is  said  the  people  wUl  be  led  by  a  few  designing 
men.  This  might  happen  in  a  small  district.  It  can  never  happen 
throughout  the  continent.  In  the  election  of  a  Gov',  of  N.  York,  it 
sometimes  is  the  case  in  particular  spots,  that  the  activity  &  intrigues 

•The  figure  "  1  "  U  changed  to  "The  first  is"  in  the  transcript. 

•  ITie  word  "  at "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  (or     In. 

•  The  transcript  does  not  italicize  the  word  "  majority." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  a  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TtJESDAY,  JULY  17,  1787 

of  little  partizana  are  successful,  but  the  general  voice  of  the  State 
is  never  influenced  by  such  artifices.  It  is  said  the  multitude  will 
be  uninformed.  It  is  true  they  would  be  uninformed  of  what  passed 
in  the  Legislative  Conclave,  if  the  election  were  to  be  made  there; 
but  they  will  not  be  uninformed  of  those  great  &  illustrious  char- 
acters which  have  merited  their  esteem  &  confidence.  If  the  Execu- 
tive be  chosen  by  the  Nati  Legislatuia,  he  will  not  be  independent 
on'  it;  and  if  not  independent,  usurpation  &  tyranny  on  the 
part  of  the  Legislature  will  be  the  consequence.  This  was  the  case 
in  England  in  the  last  Century.  It  has  been  the  case  in  Holland, 
where  their  Senates  have  engrossed  all  power.  It  has  been  the  case 
every  where.  He  was  surprised  that  an  election  by  the  people  at 
large  should  ever  have  been  likened  to  the  polish  election  of  the 
first  Magistrate.  An  election  by  the  Legislature  will  bear  a  real  like- 
ness to  the  election  by  the  Diet  of  Poland.  The  great  must  be  the 
electors  in  both  cases,  and  the  corruption  &  cabal  w^  are  known  to 
characterise  the  one  would  soon  find  their  way  into  the  other.  Ap- 
pointr  nts  made  by  numerous  bodies,  are  always  worse  than  those 
made  by  single  responsible  individuals,  or  by  the  people  at  large. 

Col.  Mason.  It  is  curious  to  remark  the  different  language  held 
at  different  times.  At  one  moment  we  are  told  that  the  Legisla- 
ture is  entitled  to  thorough  confidence,  and  to  indifinite  power.  At 
another,  that  it  will  be  governed  by  intrigue  &  corruption,  and  can- 
not be  trusted  at  all.  But  not  t^  dwell  on  this  inconsistency  he 
would  observe  that  a  Government  which  is  to  last  ought  at  least  to  be 
practicable.  Would  this  be  the  case  if  the  proponed  election  should 
be  left  to  the  people  at  large.  He  conceived  it  would  be  as  un- 
natural to  refer  the  choice  of  a  proper  character  for  chief  Magis- 
trate to  the  people,  as  it  would,  to  refer  a  trial  of  colours  to  a 
blind  man.  The  extent  of  the  Countrj'  renders  it  impossible  that 
the  people  can  have  the  requisite  capacity  to  judge  of  the  respective 
pretensions  of  the  Candidates. 

an  Wilson,  could  not  see  the  contrariety  stated  [by  Col.  Mason] 
The  LegislP  might  deserve  confidence  in  some  respects,  and  distrust 
in  others.  In  acts  which  were  to  affect  them  &  y?  Constituents  pre- 
cisely alike  confidence  was  due.  In  others  jealousy  was  warranted. 
The  appointment  to  great  offices,  where  the  Legisl?  might  feel  many 
motives,  not  common  to  the  public  confidence  was  surely  misplaced. 
This  branch  of  bu'iness  it  was  notorious  was'  most  corruptly  man- 
aged of  any  that  had  been  committed  to  legislative  bodies. ^^ 

■In  the  transcript  the  word  "on"  is  crowed  out  and  "of"  is  written 
above  it.  .  ■  ^ 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


270     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

JIJ  WiLLUMSON,  conceived  that  there  was  the  same  difference 
between  an  election  in  thia  case,  by  the  people  and  by  the  legiaU 
tnre,  a«  between  an  appj  by  lot,  and  by  choice.  There  are  at 
present  distinguished  characters,  who  are  known  perhaps  to  almost 
every  man.  This  will  not  always  be  the  case.  The  people  will  be 
sure  to  vote  for  some  man  in  their  own  State,  and  the  largest  State 
wiU  be  sure  to  succeed.  This  wiU  not  be  Virg?  however.  Her  aUves 
will  have  no  suffrage.  As  the  Salary  of  the  Executive  will  be  fixed, 
and  he  wiU  not  be  eligible  a  24  time,  there  will  not  be  such  a  de- 
pendence on  the  Legislature  as  has  been  imagined. 

1  Question  on  an  election  by  the  people  instead  of  the  Legislature; 
which '  passed  in  the  negative. 

Mas.  no.  Cont  no.  N.  J.  no.  P!  ay.  Del.  no.  W  no.  VJ  na 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.   Geo.  no." 

Mr  L.  Mabtin  moved  that  the  Executive  be  chosen  by 
Electors  Appointed  by  the  several  Legislatures  of  the  individual 

Qfafpg 

Ml  Bboomb  21*  On  the  Question,  it  passed  in  the  negative. 

Mas.  no.  Con',  no.  N.  J.  no.  P*  no.  Del.  ay.  M*.  ay.  Vf  no. 
N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.*  ».    xt    •    i 

On  the  question  on  the  words  "  to  be  chosen  by  the  Nation. 
Legislature  "  it  passed  unanimously  in  the  affinnative. 

♦'For  the  term  of  seven  years  "— postponed  nem.  con.  on  motion 
of  M'.  Houston  &  •  Gov.  Morris. 

"  to  carry  into  execution  the  nalioa'  laws  "—agreed  to  nem.  con. 

"  to  appoint  to  offices  in  cases  not  otherwise  provided  for."— 
agreed  to  nem.  con. 

"  to  be  ineUgible  a  second  time  "—Mr  Houston  moved  to  strike 

out  this  clause. 

M»  Sherman  2*!  the  motion. 

Mr  Gov'.  MoEBis  espoused  the  motion.  The  ineligibility  proposed 
by  the  clause  as  it  stood  tended  to  destroy  the  great  motive  to  good 
behavior,  the  hope  of  being  rewarded  by  a  re-appointment.  It  was 
saying  to  him,  make  hay  while  the  sun  shines. 


'  The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  inwrted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  Tord  "which"  is  crossed  out  and  "it"  is  writU-u  above  it  in  the 

*"°M7*the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  " Penn^lrania,  "ff*-! '  ^•?»^''»';*Vh 
Connecticut,  New  Jersey.  Delaware,  Maryland.  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  SontB 

^""."rt^TtrnscVtie  vote  reads:  "Delaware.  Maryland.  «y^2 ^iU.^ 
chusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey.  Pennsylvania,  \irginia,  ^orth  Carolina. 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8."  ,  .     ,^    .  .  . 

•  The  word  "  Mr."  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  JULY  17,  1787 


271 


On  the  question  for  striking  out  as  moved  by  Mt  Houston,  it 
passed  in  the  affirmative 

Mas.  ay.  Con?  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  no.  M*  ay.  V»  no. 
N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.* 

' "  For  the  term  of  7  years  "  •  resumed 

M'.  Brooh  was  for  a  shorter  term  since  the  Executive  Magistrate 
was  now  to  be  re-eligible.  Had  he  remained  ineligible  a  21  time, 
he  should  have  preferred  a  longer  term. 

DocT  M^Cunw  moved  •  to  strike  out  7  years,  and  insert  "  during 
good  behavior."  By  striking  out  the  words  declaring  him  not  re- 
eligible,  he  was  put  into  a  situation  that  would  keep  him  dependent 
for  ever  on  the  Legislature ;  and  he  conceived  the  independence  of  the 
Executive  to  be  equally  essential  with  that  of  the  Judiciary  departs 
ment. 

M:  Govt  M(«Ris  2^  the  motion.  He  expressed  great  pleasure 
in  hearing  it.  This  was  the  way  to  get  a  good  Government  His  fear 
that  so  valuable  an  ingredient  would  not  be  attained  had  led  him 
to  take  the  part  he  had  done.  He  was  indifferent  how  the  Executive 
should  be  chosen,  provided  he  held  his  place  by  this  tenure. 

W  BsooHX  highly  approved  the  motion.  It  obviated  all  his 
diflSculties 

W.  Sbebuan  considered  such  a  tenure  as  by  no  means  safe  o^ 
admissible.  As  the  Executive  Magistrate  is  now  re-eligible,  he  will 
be  on  good  behavior  as  far  as  will  be  necessary.  If  he  behaves  well 
he  will  be  continued;  if  otherwise,  displaced,  on  a  succeeding  election. 
Mr  Madison  f  If  it  be  essential  to  the  preservation  of  liberty  that 
the  Legisl:  Execut:  &  Judiciary  powers  be  separate,  it  is  essential 
to  a  maintenance  of  the  separation,  that  they  should  be  independent 
of  each  other.  The  Executive  could  uot  be  independent  of  the 
Legislure,  if  dependent  on  the  pleasure  of  that  branch  for  a  re- 
appointment. "Why  was  it  determined  that  the  Judges  should  not 
hold  their  places  by  such  a  tenure!  Because  they  might  be  tempted 
•The  probable  object  of  this  ntotion  wm«  merely  to  enforce  the  argument 
against  the  re-eligibility  of  the  Executive  Magirtrate,  by  holding  out  a  tenure 
during  good  behayiour  a*  the  alternative  for  keeping  him  IndependMt  of  the 

t^'view  here  taken  of  the  mibject  waa  meant  to  aid  in  parrying  the 
animadveraion.  likely  to  fall  on  the  motion  of  Dj  M'<!lorg.  'or  .''^o™  .<'•'*• 
had  a  particular  regard.  The  Doc!  though  poaaeasing  talents  of  the  highert 
order,  was  modest  k  unaccustomed  to  exert  them  in  public  debate. 


■In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Cranecticut,  New 
Jersev,  Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  Delaware,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no — *." 

■  The  words  "  The  clause  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

■  The  word  "  being  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


272      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


to  cultivate  the  Lcgislatnre,  by  an  undue  complaiaance,  and  thus 
render  the  Legislature  the  virtual  expositor,  as  well*  the  maker 
of  the  laws.  In  like  manner  a  dependence  of  the  Executive  on  the 
Legislature,  would  render  it  the  Executor  as  well  as  the  maker  of 
laws;  &  then  according  to  the  observation  of  Montesquieu,  tyrannical 
laws  may  be  made  that  they  may  be  executed  in  a  tyrannical  manner. 
There  was  an  analogy  between  the  Executive  &  Judiciary  depart- 
ments in  several  respects.  The  latter  executed  the  laws  in  certain 
cases  as  the  former  did  in  others.  The  former  expounded  &  applied 
them  for  certain  purposes,  as  the  latter  did  for  others.  The  dif- 
ference between  them  seemed  to  consist  chiefly  in  two  circumstances— 
1.'  the  collective  interest  &  security  were  much  more  in  the  power 
belonging  to  the  Executive  than  to  the  Judiciary  department.  2.'  in 
the  administration  of  the  former  much  greater  latitude  is  left  to 
opinion  and  discretion  than  in  the  administration  of  the  latter. 
But  if  the  21  consideration  proves  that  it  will  be  more  difficult  to 
establish  a  rule  sufficiently  precise  for  trying  thn  Exeeut :  than  the 
Judges,  &  forms  an  objection  to  the  same  tenure  of  office,  both  con- 
siderations prove  that  it  might  be  more  dangerous  to  suffer  a  union 
between  the  Executive  &  Lcgisl :  powers,  than  between  the  Judiciary 
&  Legislative  powers.  He  conceived  it  to  be  absolutely  necessary  to 
a  well  constituted  Bepublic  that  the  two  first  alfi  be  kept  distinct  & 
independent  of  each  other.  Whether  the  plan  proposed  by  the 
motion  was  a  proper  one  was  another  question,  as  it  depended  on 
the  practicability  of  instituting  a  tribunal  for  impeachm^  as  certain 
&  as  adequate  in  the  one  case  as  in  the  other.  On  the  other  hand, 
respect  for  the  mover  entitled  his  proposition  to  a  fair  hearing  & 
discussion,  until  a  less  objectionable  expedient  should  be  applied  for 
guarding  ag?*  a  dangerous  union  of  the  Legislative  ft  Executive 
departments. 

Col.  Mason.  This  motion  was  made  some  time  ago,  ft  negatived 
by  a  very  large  majority.  He  trusted  that  it  w1  be  again  negatived. 
It  w?  be  impossible  to  define  the  misbehaviour  in  such  a  manner  as 
to  subject  it  to  a  proper  trial;  and  perhaps  still  more  impossible 
to  compel  so  high  an  offender  holding  his  office  by  such  a  tenure 
to  submit  to  a  trial.  He  considered  an  Executive  during  good  be- 
havior as  a  softer  name  only  for  an  Executive  for  life.  And  that  the 
next  would  be  an  easy  step  to  hereditary  Monarchy.  If  the  motion 
should  finally  succeed,  he  might  himself  live  to  see  such  a  Bevolu- 

'  The  word  "  as  "  U  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

■  The  figures  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  first "  and  "  secondly  "  in  the 
transcript. 


ft' 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JULY  17,  1787 


278 


tion.  If  he  did  not  it  was  probable  hia  children  or  grand  children 
wuuld.  He  tnuted  there  were  few  men  in  that  House  who  wished 
for  it.  No  atate  he  waa  anre  had  so  far  revolted  from  Republican 
principles  as  to  have  the  least  bias  in  its  favor. 

Mr  Madison,  was  not  apprehensive  of  being  thought  to  favor  any 
step  towards  monarchy.  The  real  object  with  him  was  to  prevent  its 
introduction.  Experience  had  proved  a  tendency  in  our  govern- 
ments to  throw  all  power  into  the  Legislative  vortex.  The  Executives 
of  the  States  are  in  general  little  more  than  Cyphers ;  the  legislatures 
omnipoteii..  If  no  effectual  check  be  devised  for  restraining  the 
instability  &  encroachments  of  the  latter,  a  revolution  of  some  kind 
or  other  would  be  inevitable.  The  preservation  of  Republican  Gov.' 
therefore  required  some  expedient  for  the  purpose,  but  required  evi- 
dently at  the  same  time  that  in  devising  it,  the  genuine  principles  of 
that  form  should  be  kept  in  view. 

M'.  Gov!  Morris  was  as  little  a  friend  to  monarchy  as  any  gentle- 
man. He  concurred  in  the  opinion  that  the  way  to  keep  out  mo- 
niirebical  Oov^  was  to  establish  such  a  Bepub.  Oov^  as  w^  make  the 
people  happy  and  prevent  a  desire  of  change. 

DocT  M^Clubo  was  not  so  much  afraid  of  the  shadow  of  monarchy 
as  to  be  unwilling  to  approach  it;  nor  so  wedded  to  Republican 
Gov.'  as  not  to  be  sensible  of  the  tyrannies  that  had  been  &  may  be 
exercised  under  that  form.  It  was  an  essential  object  with  him  to 
make  the  Executive  independent  of  the  Legislature;  and  the  only 
mode  left  for  effecting  it,  after  the  vote  destroying  his  ineligibility  a 
second  time,  was  to  appoint  him  during  good  behavior. 

On  the  question  for  inserting  "  during  good  behavior  "  in  place 
of  7  years  [with  a  re-eligibility]  it  passed  in  the  negative. 

Mas.  no.  CJ  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Dd.  ay.  M?  no.  V!  ay. 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* » 

*  Tranifer  the  above  notes  hither.' 

[*Thi8  vote  ii  not ■  be  coniidered  a* any  certain  index  of  opinion,  ai  a  num- 
lier  in  th«  affirmative  probably  had  it  chiefly  in  view  to  alarm  thou  attached  to  a 
dependence  of  the  Executive  on  tlie  LegiaUture,  A  thereby  facilitate  some  final 
arrangement  of  a  contrary  tendency.  TTie  avowed  friends  of  an  Executive,  "  Jur- 
iaii  pood  behaviour"  were  not  more  than  three  or  four,  nor  is  it  certain  they 
uuuld  finally  *  have  adhered  to  such  a  tenure.  An  independence  of  the  three  great 
departments  of  each  other,  as  far  as  possible,  and  the  responsibility  of  all  to 
the  will  of  the  community  seemed  to  be  generally  admitted  as  the  true  basis  of 
a  well  constructed  government.] 

■In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Virpinia,  aye — 4;  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  South 
Carolina.  Georgia,  no — 6.*  " 

'  Madison's  direction  concerning  the  footnotes  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  word  "  to  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  finally  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript 


LH»".' 


1^ 


274     DEBATES  IX  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

On  the  motion  "  to  itrike  oat  wven  yean  "  it  ptaied  in  the 
negative. 

Maa.  ny.  C*  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  no.  V^  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* ' 

It  waa  now  unanimouaiy  agreed  that  the  vote  which  had  strnek 
oat  the  words  "  to  be  ineligible  a  eecond  time  "  shoold  be  reconaidered 
to-morrow. 

Adji 


Wednisdat  JtrtiT  18.    IK  CotmomoN 

On  motion  of  W  L.  Martin  to  fix  tomorrow  for  reconsidering  the 
vote  concerning  "  eligibility  of  Exec**!*'  a  2^.  time"  it  passed  in 
the  affirmative. 

Mas.  ay.  Con?  ay.  N.  J.  absent.  Pt  ay.  Del.  ay.  M<  ay. 
V?  ay.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  absent." 

The  residue  of  Resol.  9.*  concerning  the  Ezecative  waa  postp?  till 
tomorrow. 

Resol.  10.'  that  Execntive  sh.'  have  a  right  to  negative  legislative 
acts  not  afterwards  passed  by  %  of  each  branch.*    Agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Resol.  11.^  "  that  a  Nat'  Judiciary*  be  estab?  to  consist  of  one 
supreme  tribunal."  ag*  to  nem.  con. 

*"  The  Judges  of  which  to  be  appoint?  by  the  21  branch  of  the 
Nat'  Legislature." 

M^  Ohorum,  wl  prefer  an  appointment  by  the  21  branch  to  an 
appointmt  by  the  whole  Legislature ;  but  he  thought  even  that  branch 

[*  There  wki  no  debate  on  this  motion,  the  apparent  object  of  many  in 
the  affirmative  wa«  to  secure  the  re-eligibility  by  (bortening  the  term,  and  of 
many  in  the  negative  to  embarrass  the  plan  of  referring  the  appointment  k 
dependence  of  the  Executive  to  the  Legislature.] 

■  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
North  Carolina,  aye — t;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Maryland,  Virginia,  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 6.*  " 

'  The  words  "  eligibility  of  Executive  "  are  changed  to  "  the  ineligibility  of 
the  Executive  "  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Pennsyl- 
vania. Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye — 8; 
New  Jersey,  Georgia,  absent." 

*  The  'words  "  the  ninth  Resolution  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  Resol.  9." 

*  The  words  "  The  tenth  Resolution  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  Retol.  10." 

*  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  words  "  The  Eleventh  Resolution  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"Resol.  11." 

*  The  word  "  shall "  is  here  inserted  in  tlie  transcript. 

*  The  words  ''  On  the  clause  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  18,  1787 


275 


too  numerooi,  aad  too  little  penonaUjr  rwponiible,  to  «nrare  a  good 
choice.  H*  lUggMted  that  th«  Judges  be  appointed  by  the  Bxecu?* 
with  the  adriee  ft  conaent  of  the  2f  branch,  in  the  mode  preecribed 
by  the  coMtitution  of  Maa"?  This  mode  had  been  long  practiaed  in 
that  country,  ft  waa  found  to  answer  perfectly  well. 

MI  WaaoN,  atill  w* »  prefer  an  appointmt  by  the  Executive ;  but 
if  that  could  not  be  attained,  w1  prefer  in  the  next  place,  the  mode 
sugfffsted  by  Ml  Ohorum.  He  thought  it  hia  duty  however  to  move 
in  the  flrat  inatance  "  that  the  Judgea  be  appointed  by  the  Execu- 
tive."   Mr  QaV.  Mosna  2*^  the  motion. 

MI  L.  Martin  waa  strenuoua  for  an  app2  by  the  2i  branch.  B«  ing 
taken  from  all  the  States  it  w1  be  best  informed  of  eharaeten  ft 
moat  capable  of  making  a  fit  choice. 

MS  Shxrxan  concrrred  in  the  observationa  of  Mi  Martin,  adding 
that  the  Judges  ought  to  be  diffnaed,  which  would  be  more  likely  to 
be  attended  to  by  the  21  branch,  than  by  the  Executive. 

W.  Mason.  The  mode  of  appointing  the  Judgea  may  depend  in 
some  degree  on  the  mode  of  trying  impeachmtnts  of  the  Executive. 
If  the  Judges  were  to  form  a  tribunal  for  that  purpoae,  they  surely 
ought  not  to  be  appointed  by  the  Executive.  There  were  insuperable 
objections  besides  ag*'  referring  the  appointment  to  the  Executive. 
He  mentioned  as  one,  that  as  the  Seat  of  Gov!  must  be  in  some  one 
State,  and »  the  Executive  would  remain  in  (rffice  for  a  considerable 
time,  for  4,  5,  or  6  years  at  least,  he  would  insensibly  form  local  ft 
personal  attachments  within  the  particular  Sute  that  would  deprive 
equal  merit  elsewhere,  of  an  equal  chance  of  promotion. 

MI  Ohorum.  As  the  Executive  wiU  be  responsible  in  point  of 
character  at  least,  for  a  judicious  and  faithful  discharge  of  his  trust, 
he  will  be  careful  to  look  through  ell  the  States  for  proper  char- 
acters. The  Senators  will  be  aa  likely  to  form  their  attachments  at 
the  seat  of  Gov?  where  they  reside,  as  the  Executive.  If  they  can  not 
get  the  man  of  the  particular  SUte  to  which  they  may  respectively 
belong,  they  will  be  indifferent  to  tne  rest.  Public  bodies  feel  no 
personal  responsibly,  and  give  full  play  to  intrigue  &  cabal. 
Rh.  Island  is  a  full  illustration  of  the  insensibility  to  character, 
produced  by  a  participation  of  numbers,  in  dishonorable  measures, 
and  of  the  length  to  wtich  a  public  body  may  carry  wickedness  & 
cabal. 

MT  Gov'.  Morris  supposed  it  would  be  improper  for  an  impeaehm. 


script. 


'  The  words  "  still  w"*  "  are  transposed  to  read  "  would  still "  in  the  tran- 
The  word  "  as  "  is  here  Inserted  in  the  transcript. 


276     DEBAT£8  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1T87 

of  the  EieentiTe  to  b«  tried  before  the  Jndcee.  The  latter  would  ia 
luch  cue  be  drawn  into  intrignee  with  the  LeRitlatore  ai.d  an  im- 
partial trial  would  be  fnutrated.  Aa  they  w^  be  moeh  aboat  the 
Seat  of  Got.'  they  might  eren  be  previooaly  eonaolted  k  arranga- 
menta  might  be  made  for  a  proaeeution  of  the  Executive.  He  thought 
therefore  that  no  argument  could  be  drawn  from  the  probabili^  of 
lUch  a  plan  of  impeachmpnta  a«^  the  motion  before  the  Houae. 

iV  Madison,  luggeated  that  the  Judgea  might  be  appointed  by  the 
Executive  with  the  concurrence  of  H  at  least,  of  the  2^  braneh. 
This  would  unite  the  advantage  of  reaponaibility  in  the  Exeentivt 
with  the  aecurity  aff(irded  in  the  21  branch  ag?*  any  ineantiooa  or 
corrupt  nomination  by  the  Executive. 

M'  Sherman,  waa  clearly  for  an  election  by  the  Senate.  It  would 
be  compoaed  of  men  nearly  equal  to  the  Executive,  and  would  of 
course  have  on  the  whole  more  wiadom.  They  would  bring  into  their 
deliberations  a  more  dilfustve  knowledge  of  characters.  It  would  be 
less  eaay  for  candidates  to  intrigue  with  them,  than  with  the  Execu- 
tive Magiatrate.  For  these  reaaons  he  thought  there  would  be  a 
better  security  for  a  proper  choice  in  the  Senate  than  in  the  Ex- 
ecutive. 

Mt  Randolph.  It  is  true  that  when  the  app!  of  the  Judgea  waa 
vested  in  the  21  branch  an  equality  of  votes  had  not  been  given  to 
it.  Tet  he  had  rather  leave  the  appointm!  there  than  give  it  to 
the  Executive.  He  thought  the  advantage  of  personal  responsibility 
might  be  gained  in  the  Sei  ite  by  requiring  the  respective  votes  of 
the  members  to  be  entered  on  the  Journal.  He  thought  too  that  the 
hope  of  receiving  app"!  would  be  more  diffusive  if  they  depended  ou 
the  Senate,  the  members  of  which  w1  be  diffusively  known,  than  if 
they  depended  on  a  single  man  who  could  not  be  personally  known 
to  a  very  great  extent;  and  consequently  that  opposition  to  the 
System,  would  be  so  far  weakened. 

M'.  Bedpokd  thought  there  were  solid  reasons  ag?  leaving  the 
appointment  to  the  Executive.  He  must  trust  more  to  information 
than  the  Senate.  It  would  put  it  in  his  power  to  gain  over  the  larger 
States,  by  gratifying  them  with  a  preference  of  their  Citizens.  The 
ri  sponsibility  of  the  Executive  so  much  talked  of  waa  chimericaL 
He  could  not  be  punished  for  mistakes. 

Mi  Ghorum  remarked  that  the  Senate  could  have  no  better  in- 
formation  than  the  Executive.  They  must  like  him,  trust  to  infor- 
mation from  the  members  belonging  to  the  particular  State  where  the 
Candidates  resided.  The  Executive  would  certainly  be  more  answer- 
able for  a  good  appointment,  aa  the  whole  blame  of  a  bad  one  would 


SE38I0N  OP  WBDNE8DAT.  JULY  18.  1787  277 

fall  on  him  alone.  He  did  not  mMn  that  he  would  b«  •"^•«W« 
under  any  other  penalty  than  that  ol  puUie  cenrore,  which  with 
honorable  mlnda  wai  a  rofflcient  ona. 

On  the  quetUon  tor  referring  the  appointment  of  the  Jndfea  to 
the  Executive,  inrtead  of  the  «  branch  «  p  «« 

Ma«.  ay.  Con?  no.  Ray.  Del.no.  Mine.  Vt  no.  N.  C.  no. 
8.  C.  no.— Geo.  abeent.*  , 

M5  Outrnvu  moved  "  that  the  Jndgee  be  nominated  and  appointed 
bv  the  Executive,  by  k  with  the  advice  ft  conaent  of  ^f^"^^ 
&  every  wch  nomination  d».ll  be  mmk  ^t  »eart  J^^'  P'«^ 

to  such  appointment"  Thia  mode  he  aaid  had  been  ratified  by  the 
experience  of  140  ye«.  in  U»m»chvm^  If  the  appi  -hould  be 
left  to  either  branch  of  the  LegiaUture.  it  will  be  a  mere  piece  of 

jobbing. 

M'.  Govt  Momas  2**  ft  ropported  the  motion. 

M?  SHnUAN  thought  it  leaa  objectionable  than  an  abeolute  ap- 
pointment by  the  Executive;  but  dialiked  it  aa  too  much  fettering 

the  Senate. 

» Question  on  M?  Ghorum 'a  motion  „  «  .« 

Mm.  ay.    Coni  no.    Pt  ay.    Del  no.    M«  ay.    V«  ay.    N.  C.  no. 

S.  C.  no.    Geo.  abaent.*  i    *^  u-  tv- 

m  Madison  moved  that  the  Judgea  ahould  be  nominated  by  the 
Executive,  ft  auch  nomination  nhould  become  '^JVPointoitvXit^t 
disTKreed  to  within  day.  by  H  of  the  2-  branch.    Mr  Gov^ 

Morris  2--  the  motion.    By  common  consent  the  consideration  of  it 
was  postponed  till  tomorrow.  ......  •      «_..j 

"  To  hold  their  office,  during  good  behavior  "  ft  "  to  Mceive  fixed 
salaries"  agreed  to  nem:  con:  s  _*:«„  .v.ii 

"  In  which  {aalarie.  of  Judge.]  no  increaw  or  diminution  ahaU 
be  made  so  a.  to  affect  the  penwna  at  the  time  m  office. 

M'.  Govi  Morris  moved  to  strike  out ' '  or  mcreaws.  He  thought 
the  Legislature  ought  to  be  at  liberty  to  increase  «ilane.  a.  circum. 
stances  might  require,  and  that  thi.  would  not  create  any  improper 

dependence  in  the  Judge..  «    „  «.„  „„♦ 

Doc?  Prankun  waa  in  favor  of  the  motion.    Money  may  not 

Georgia,  absent.' 


for 


"f?h  '  ph««;  "  .ctualW  in  offlc*  at  the  ti».  "  U  «.b.tltat«l  to  th.  tr«Kript 
"  at  the  time  in  ofBce. 


278      DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

only  become  plentier,  but  the  business  of  the  department  may  in- 
crease as  the  Country  becomes  more  populous. 

M'  Madison.  The  dependence  will  be  less  if  the  iiurease  alone 
should  be  permitted,  but  it  will  be  improper  even  so  far  to  permit  a  de- 
pendence Vvhenever  an  increase  is  wished  by  the  Judges,  or  may  be 
in  agitation  in  the  legislature,  an  undue  complaisance  in  the  former 
may  be  felt  towards  the  latter.  If  at  such  a  crisis  there  should  be 
in  Court  suits,  to  which  leading  members  of  the  Legislature  may  be 
parties,  the  Judges  will  be  in  a  situation  which  ought  not  to* 
suffered,  if  it  cm  be  prevented.  The  variations  in  the  value  of 
money,  may  be  guarded  ag^*  by  taking  for  a  standard  wheat  or 
some  other  thing  of  permanent  value.  The  increase  of  business  will 
be  provided  for  by  an  increase  of  the  number  who  are  to  do  it.  An 
increase  of  salaries  may  be  easily  so  contrived  aa  not  to  affect  persons 
in  office. 

W.  Govt  Morris.  The  value  of  money  may  not  only  alter  but 
the  St,\te  of  Society  may  alter.  In  this  event  the  same  quantity  of 
wheat,  the  same  value  wonld  not  be  the  same  compensatioi..  The 
Amount  of  salaries  must  always  be  regulated  by  the  manners  &  the 
style  of  living  in  a  Country.  The  increase  of  business  can  not,  be 
provided  for  in  the  supreme  tribunal  in  the  way  that  has  been  men- 
tioned. All  the  business  of  a  certain  description  whether  more  or 
less  must  be  done  in  that  single  tribunal.  Additional  labor  alone 
in  the  Judges  can  provide  for  additioucJ  business.  Additional  com- 
pensation therefore  ought  not  to  be  prohibited. 

On  the  question  for  striking  out  "  or  increase  " 

Mas.  ay.  Coni  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M"!  ay.  V^  no.  N.  C.  no. 
S.  C.  ay.    Qeo.  absent.' 

The  whole  clause  as  amended  w.is  then  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

12.  Besol: '  "  that*  Nat'  Legislature  be  empowered  to  appoint  in- 
ferior tribunals  "" 

W  Butler  could  see  no  necessity  for  such  tribunals.  The  State 
Tribunals  might  do  the  business. 

M'.  L.  Martin  concurred.  They  will  create  jealousies  &  opposi- 
tions in  the  State  tribunals,  with  the  jurisdiction  of  which  they 
will  interfere. 

*  The  word  "  be  "  is  here  inierted  in  the  transcript. 

*  In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads :  "  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Pennsyl- 
TSi  ia,  Delaware,  Maryland,  South  Carolina,  aye — 6;  Virginia,  North  Carolina, 
BO— 2;  Georgia,  absent." 

*  The  words  "  The  twelfth  RetolutioD  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  12.  Resol." 

*  The  word  "  the  "  Is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  words  "  being  taken  up  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  18,  1787  279 

W.  Ghobum.  There  are  in  the  States  already  federal  Court*  witii 
jurisdiction  for  trial  of  piracies  &c.  committed  on  the  Seas.  No  com- 
plaints have  been  made  by  the  States  or  the  Courts  of  the  States 
Inferior  tribunaU  are  essential  to  render  the  authority  of  the  Nat- 

Legislature  effectual  .   .     „    .  *  u« 

ip  Randolph  observed  that  the  Courts  of  the  States  can  not  be 

trusted  with  the  administration  of  the  National  laws.    The  objects 

of  jurisdiction  are  such  as  wiU  often  place  the  General  &  local  policy 

Qf  vftl*l&IlC6> 

M!  Govt  MoRBis  urged  also  the  necessity  of  such  a  provision 

M'.  Sherman  was  wUling  to  give  the  power  to  the  Legislature  but 
wished  them  to  make  use  of  the  State  Tribunals  whenever  it  could  be 
done,  with  safety  to  the  general  interest  ,       .         ^  ♦» 

Col  Mason  thought  many  circumstances  might  arise  not  now  to 
be  foreseen,  which  might  render  such  a  power  absolutely  necemary. 

On>  qucation  for  agreeing  to  12.  Resol: «  empowering  the  National 
Legislature  to  appoint  "  inferior  tribunals."  '    Ag-  to  nem.  con 

-13  Resol:  "Impeachments  of  national  officers"  were  struck 
out "  on  motion  for  the  purpose.  "  The  jurisdiction  of  Nat.  Judi- 
ciaiy  "  Several  criticisms  having  been  made  on  the  definition ;  it  was 
proposed  by  Mr  Madison  so  to  alter »  as  to  read  thus-"  that  the  juns- 
diction  shall  extend  to  all  cases  arising  under  the  Nat'  laws:  And  to 
such  other  questions  as  may  involve  the  Nat'  peace  &  harmony,    which 

was  agreed  to  nem.  con.  „    ,     ,     «        j  * 

Resol.  14.«  providing  for  the  admission  of  new  States »    Agreed  to 

nem.  con.  ,         ^i  «^ 

Resol.  15.»  that  provision  ought  to  be  made  for  the  continuance  of 

Cong;  &c.  &  for  the  completion  of  their  engagements.* 

MI  Gov!  MoBBis  thought  the  assumption  of  their  engagementt 

might  as  well  be  omitted;  and  that  Cong-  ought  not  to  be  continued 

till  all  the  States  should  adopt  the  reform;  since  it  may  become  ex- 


:?i:  Zp:'^\^:^^^^  K?ion"*Tre*7X^ted  in  th.  tr.n«Hpt  for 
'  '^"^'p  words  "  it  w««  "  are  here  to«erted  in  the  transcript. 

Ac'  being  then  taken  up,  several   .    .    •  »,^„„,i„t 

•  ^'  -"'^  "^^:,^^^^^i:^:^'^:ti.iit.i^  m  the  tr««cHpt 


clause  of 


for 


•  The  words 
'Resol.  14.' 
'  The  word 


for 


-C  ToVds  Th';  ';^^.^^^o^T^i^^^  i-  the  transcript 
The" words  "  being  considered"  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


280      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


pedient  to  give  effect  to  it  whenever  a  certain  number  of  States 
shall  adopt  it. 

M'  Madison  the  clause  can  mean  nothing  more  than  that  provision 
ought  to  be  made  for  preventing  an  interregnum;  which  must  exist 
in  the  interval  between  the  adoption  of  the  New  Gov?  and  the  com- 
mencement of  its  operation,  if  the  old  Gov.'  should  cease  on  the  first 
of  these  events. 

MI  Wilson  did  not  entirely  approve  of  the  manner  in  which  the 
clause  relating  to  the  engagements  of  Cong!  was  expressed;  but  he 
thought  some  provision  on  the  subject  would  be  proper  in  order  to 
prevent  any  suspicion  that  the  obligations  of  the  Confederacy  might 
be  dissolved  along  with  the  Govern?  under  which  they  were  con- 
tracted. 

On  the  question  on  the  1!*  part— relating  to*  continuance  of 

Cong!" 

Mas.  no.    Con.'  no.    P»  no.    Del.  no.    Ml  no.    V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay. 


no.' 


S.  C.»  ay.    Geo. 

The  2^  part  as  to'  completion  of  their  engagements,*  disagi  to. 
ncm.  con. 

Rcsol.  16.*  "  That  a  Republican  Constitution  &  its.  existing  laws 
ought  to  be  guarantied  to  each  State  by  the  U.  States." » 

MI  Gov^  MoBBis— thought  the  Resol:  very  objectionable.  He 
should  be  very  unwilling  that  such  laws  as  exist  in  K.  Island  should 
be  gnaranteid. 

M'.  Wilson.  The  object  is  merely  to  secure  the  States  ag!*  dan- 
gerous commotions,  insurrections  and  rebellions. 

Col.  Mason.  If  the  Gea'  Govi  should  have  no  right  to  suppress 
rebellions  agf  particular  States,  it  will  be  in  a  bad  situation  indeed. 
As  Rebellions  ag*.'  itself  originate  in  &  ag^  individual  States,  it  must 
remain  a  passive  Spectator  of  its  own  subversion. 

MI  Randolph.  The  Resol?  has  2.  objects.  l.«  to  secure  Republi- 
can Government.  2.'  to  suppress  domestic  commotions.  He  urged 
the  necessity  of  both  these  provisions. 

•  In  the  printed  Journal,  S.  Carolina — no. 


>  The  "ortl  "  the"  in  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 

Mn  the  transcript  the  vote  reads.  "  Vireinia,  North  Carolina,  South  Caro- 
lina/  ay— 3;   Massachusetts,   Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,   Delaware,   Maryland, 

GeoreiB.  no— fi."  .  .     ^v    .  •  * 

•  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  m  the  transcript.  ^  . 

•  Th.-  words  "  The  sixteenth  Resolution "  are  substituted  m  the  transcript 

°'   •  The"  words  "  beinp  considered  "  are  here  added  in  the  transcript 

•The  figures  "  1  "  and  "2"  are  changed  to  "  first"  and  "secondly     In  the 
transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  18,  1787 


281 


W  Madison  moved  to  mibstitute  "  that  the  Conatitutional  author- 
ity  of  the  States  shall  be  guarantied  to  them  respectivdy  ag?' 
domestic  as  well  as  foreign  violence." 

Doc^  M^Cluro  seconded  the  motion. 

MI  Houston  was  afraid  of  perpetuating  the  existing  Constitutions 
of  the  States.  That  of  Georgia  was  a  very  bad  one,  and  he  hoped 
would  be  revised  &  amended.  It  may  also  be  difficult  for  the  Gen! 
Gov.'  to  decide  between  contending  parties  each  of  which  claim  the 
sanction  of  the  Constitution. 

M'.  L.  Mabtin  was  for  leaving  the  States  to  suppress  Bebellions 
themselves. 

MC  Qhorum  thought  it  strange  that  a  Rebellion  should  be  known 
to  exist  in  the  Empire,  and  the  Gen?  Gov.'  sh*  be  restrained  from 
interposing  to  subdue  it.  At  this  rate  an  enterprising  Citizen  might 
erect  the  standard  of  Monarchy  in  a  particular  State,  might  gather 
together  partizans  from  all  quarters,  might  extend  his  views  from 
State  to  State,  and  threaten  to  establish  a  tyranny  over  the  whole  & 
the  Gen!  CtovJ  be  compelled  to  remain  an  inactive  witness  of  its  own 
destruction.  With  regard  to  different  parties  in  a  State;  as  long  as 
they  coaflne  their  disputes  to  words,  they  will  be  harmless  to  the 
Geni  Govt  &  to  each  other.  If  they  appeal  to  the  sword,  it  will  then  be 
necessary  for  the  Gen?  Gov?,  however  difficult  it  may  be  to  decide  on 
the  merits  of  their  contest,  to  interpose  &  put  an  end  to  it 

M:  Cabsou  Some  such  provision  is  essential.  Every  State  ought 
to  wish  for  it.  It  has  been  doubted  whether  it  is  a  casus  federis  at 
present.    And  no  room  ought  to  be  left  for  such  a  doubt  hereafter. 

M^  Randolph  moved  to  add  as^  amend!  to  the  motion;  "  and 
that  no  State  be  at  liberty  to  form  any  other  than  a  RepubUcan  Gov! 
Mr  Madison  seconded  the  motion 

M*.  RuTLiDOE  thought  it  nnnecoasary  to  insert  any  guarantee. 
No  doubt  could  be  entertained  but  that  Cong^  had  the  authority  if 
they  had  the  means  to  co-operate  with  any  State  in  subduing  a 
rebellion.    It  was  &  would  be  involved  in  the  nature  of  the  thing. 

Mr  WiMON  moved  as  a  better  expression  of  the  idea,  "  that  a 
Republican  form  of  Govemml  shall  be  guarantied  to  each  State  & 
that  each  State  shall  be  protected  agf*  foreign  &  domestic  violence. 
This  seeming  to  be  well  received.  M'  Madison  &  Ml  Randolph 
withdrew  their  propositions  &  on  the  Question  for  agreeing  to  MI 
Wilson's  motion,  it  passed  nem.  con. 

Adji 


'  The  word  "  aB  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


"#iW 


282      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


Thursday.   July.   19,    in  Convention. 

On  reconsideration  of  the  vote  rendering  the  Executive  re-eligible 
a  2^  time,  M^  JUartin  moved  to  reinstate  the  words,  "  to  be  ineligible 
a  2*  time." 

W.  GovEBNEUR  Morris.  It  is  neceasaiy  to  take  into  one  view  all 
that  relates  to  the  establishment  of  the  Executive ;  on  the  due  forma- 
tion of  which  must  depend  the  efficacy  &  utility  of  tLe  Union  among 
the  present  and  future  States.  It  has  been  a  maxim  in  Political 
Science  that  Republican  Government  is  not  adapted  to  a  large  ex- 
tent of  Country,  because  the  energy  of  the  Executive  Magistracy  can 
not  reach  the  extreme  parts  of  it.  Our  Country  is  an  extensive  one. 
We  must  either  then  renounce  the  blessings  of  the  Union,  or  provide 
an  Executive  with  sufficient  vigor  to  pervade  every  part  of  it. 
This  subject  was  of  so  much  importance  that  he  hoped  to  be  in- 
dulged in  an  extensive  view  of  it.  One  great  object  of  the  Executive 
is  to  controul  the  Legislature.  The  Legislature  will  continually  seek 
to  aggrandize  &  perpetuate  themselves;  and  will  sieze  those  critical 
moments  produced  by  war,  invasion  or  convulsion  for  that  purpose. 
It  is  necessary  then  that  the  Executive  Magistrate  should  be  the 
guardian  of  the  people,  even  of  the  lower  classes,  ag?*  Legislative 
tyranny,  against  the  Great  &  the  wealthy  who  in  the  course  of  things 
will  necessarily  compose  the  Legislative  body.  Wealth  tends  to 
corrupt  the  mind  &  ^  to  nourish  its  love  of  power,  and  to  stimulate  it 
to  oppression.  History  proves  this  to  be  the  spirit  of  the  opulent. 
The  check  provided  in  the  2"!  branch  was  not  meant  as  a  check  on 
Legislative  tisurpations  of  power,  but  on  the  abuse  of  lawful  powers, 
on  the  propensity  in '  the  1"  branch  to  legislate  too  much  to  run  into 
projects  of  paper  money  &  similar  expedients.  It  is  no  check  on 
Legislative  tyranny.  On  the  contrary  it  may  favor  it,  and  if  the 
i;'  branch  can  be  seduced  may  find  the  means  of  success.  The  Execu- 
tive therefore  ought  to  be  so  constituted  as  to  be  the  great  protector 
of  the  Mass  of  the  people. — It  is  the  duty  of  the  Executive  to  appoint 
the  officers  &  to  command  the  forces  of  the  Republic:  to  appoint 
1."  mini  ial  officers  for  the  administration  of  public  affairs.  2.' 
officer  .e  dispensation  of  Justice.    Who  will  be  the  best  Judges 

whether  tnese  appointments  be  well  madeT    The  people  at  large,  who 
will  know,  will  see,  will  feel  the  effects  of  them.    Again  who  can  judge 

'  The  word  "  and  "  is  oross»"d  out  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  word  "  of  "  is  Kubi^tituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  in." 
'  The  figures  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  to  "  first "  and  "  secondly  "  in  the 
transcript. 


SESSION  OF  THURSDAY,  JULY  19,  1787 


283 


so  well  of  the  discharge  of  mflitary  duties  for  the  protection  & 
security  of  the  people,  as  the  people  themselves  who  are  to  be  pro- 
tected &  secured  t— He  finds  too  that  the  Executive  is  not  to  be 
re-eligible.    What  effect  will  this  have!    1.*  it  will  destroy  the  great 
incitement  to  merit  public  esteem  by  taking  away  the  hope  of  being 
rewarded  with  a  reappointment.    It  may  give  a  dangerous  turn  to 
one  of  the  strongest  passions  in  the  human  breast.    The  love  of  fame 
is  the  great  spring  to  noble  &  illustrious  actions.    Shut  the  Civil  road 
to  Glory  &  he  may  be  compelled  to  seek  it  by  the  sword.    2.*  It  will 
tempt  him  to  make  the  most  of  the  short  space  of  time  allotted  him, 
to  accumulate  wealth  and  provide  for  his  friends.    3.»  It  will  pro- 
duce violations  of  the  very  constitution  it  is  meant  to  secure.    In 
moments  of  pressing  danger  the  tried  abilities  and  established  char- 
acter of  a  favorite  Magistrate  will  prevwl  over  respect  for  the  forms 
of  the  Constitution.    The  Executive  is  also  to  be  impeachable.    This 
is  a  dangerous  part  of  the  plan.    It  will  hold  him  in  such  depend- 
ence that  he  will  be  no  check  on  the  Legislature,  will  not  be  a  firm 
guardian  of  the  people  and  of  the  public  interest.    He  will  be  the 
tool  of  a  faction,  of  some  leading  demagogue  in  the  Legislature. 
These  then  are  the  faults  of  the  Executive  establishment  as  now  pro- 
posed.   Can  no  better  establishm?  be  devised?    If  he  is  to  be  the 
Guardian  of  the  people  let  him  be  appointed  by  the  people?    If  he 
is  to  be  a  check  on  the  Legislature  let  him  not  be  impeachable.    Let 
him  be  of  short  duration,  that  he  may  with  propriety  be  re-eligible. 
It  has  been  said  that  the  candidates  for  this  ofiBce  will  not  be  known 
to  the  people.    If  they  be  known  to  the  Legislature,  they  must  have 
such  a  notoriety  and  eminence  of  Character,  that  they  cannot  possibly 
be  unknown  to  the  people  at  large.    It  cannot  be  possible  that  a 
man  shall  have  sufficiently  distinguished  himself  to  merit  this  high 
trust  without  having  his  character  proclaimed  by  fame  throughout 
the  Empire.    As  to  the  danger  from  an  unimpeachable  magistrate  he 
could  not  regard  it  as  formidable.     There  must  be  certain  great 
officers  of  State ;  a  minister  of  finance,  of  war,  of  foreign  affairs  &e. 
These  he  presumes  will  exercise  their  functions  in  subordination  to 
the  Executive,  and  will  be  amenable  by  impeachment  to  the  public 
Justice.    Without  these  ministers  the  Executive  can  do  nothing  of 
consequence.    He  suggested  a  biennial  election  of  the  Executive  at 
the  time  of  electing  the  1?'  branch,  and  the  Executive  to  hold  over, 
sn  as  to  prevent  any  interregnum  in  the  administration.    An  election 

■  Th..  fipire  '•  1  "  is  changed  to  "  In  the  first  place  "  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  figure  "  2  "  is  changed  to  "  In  the  second  place     in  the  transcript. 
•  The  figure  "  3  "  is  changed  to  "  In  the  third  place"  in  the  transcript. 


284      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

by  the  people  at  large  throughout  so  great  an  extent  of  country 
could  not  be  influenced,  by  those  little  combinations  and  those 
momentary  lies  which  often  decide  popular  elections  within  a  nar- 
row sphere.  It  will  probably,  be  objected  that  the  election  will 
be  influenced  by  the  members  of  the  Legislature ;  particularly  of  the 
!•«  branch,  and  that  it  will  be  nearly  the  same  thing  with  an  election 
by  the  Legislature  itself.  It  could  not  be  denied  that  such  an  influ- 
ence would  exist.  But  it  might  be  answered  that  as  the  Legislature 
or  the  candidates  for  it  would  be  divided,  the  enmity  of  one  part 
would  counteract  the  friendship  of  another:  that  if  the  administra- 
tion of  the  Executive  were  good,  it  would  be  unpopular  to  oppose  his 
reelection,  if  bad  it  ought  to  be  opposed  &  a  reappointmJ  prevented; 
and  lastly  that  in  every  view  this  indirect  dependence  on  the  favor 
of  the  Legislature  could  not  be  so  mischievous  as  a  direct  dependence 
for  his  appointment.  He  saw  no  alternative  for  making  the  Executive 
independent  of  the  Legislature  but  either  to  give  him  his  ofllce  for 
life,  or  make  him  eligible  by  the  people— Again,  it  might  be  objected 
that  two  years  would  be  too  short  a  duration.  But  he  believes  that 
as  long  as  he  should  behave  himself  well,  he  would  be  continued  in 
his  place.  The  extent  of  the  Country  would  secure  his  re-election 
ag*  the  factions  &  discontents  of  particular  States.  It  deserved  con- 
sideration also  that  such  an  ingredient  in  the  plan  would  render  it 
extremely  palatable  to  the  people.  These  were  the  general  ideas 
which  occurred  to  him  on  the  subject,  and  which  led  him  to  wish 
&  move  that  the  whole  constitution  of  the  Executive  might  undergo 
reconsideration. 

MI  Randolph  urged  the  motion  of  M*.  L.  Martin  for  restoring  the 
words  making  the  Executive  ineligible  a  21  time.  If  he  ought  to 
be  independent,  he  should  not  be  left  under  a  temptation  to  court  a 
re-appointment.  If  he  should  be  re-appointable  by  the  Legislature, 
he  will  be  no  check  on  it.  His  revisionary  power  will  be  of  no 
avail.  He  had  always  thought  &  contended  as  he  still  did  that  the 
danger  apprehended  by  the  little  States  was  chimerical;  but  those 
whf  thought  otherwise  ought  to  be  peculiarly  anxious  for  the  motion. 
If  the  LZxecutive  be  appointed,  as  has  been  determined,  by  the  Legis- 
lature, he  will  probably  be  appointed  either  by  joint  ballot  of  both 
houses,  or  be  nominated  by  the  H'  and  appointed  by  the  21  branch. 
In  either  case  the  large  States  will  preponderate.  If  he  is  to  court 
the  same  influence  for  his  re-appointment,  will  he  not  make  his 
revisionary  power,  and  all  the  other  functions  of  his  admini8tratioi\ 
subservient  to  the  views  of  the  large  States.  Besides,  is  there  not 
great  reason  to  apprehend  that  in  case  he  should  be  re-eligible,  a 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JULY  19,  1787 


285 


false  complaisance  in  the  Legidatore  might  lead  them  to  c<mtinue 
an  unfit  man  in  office  in  preference  to  a  fit  one.  It  has  been  said  that 
a  conatitutional  bar  to  reappointment  wiU  inapire  unconstitutional 
endeavours  to  perpetuate  himself.  It  may  be  answered  that  his 
endeavous  can  have  no  effect  unless  the  people  be  corrupt  to  such 
a  degree  as  to  render  all  precautions  hopeless:  to  which  may  be 
added  that  this  argument  supposes  him  to  be  more  powerful  & 
dangerous,  than  other  arguments  which  have  been  used,  admit,  and 
consequently  calls  for  stronger  fetters  on  his  authority.  He  thought 
an  election  by  the  Legislature  with  an  incapacity  to  be  elected  a 
second  time  would  be  more  acceptable  to  the  people  that »  the  plan 
suggested  by  M'.  Govt  Morris. 

M:  Kino,  did  not  like  the  ineligibility.  He  thought  there  was 
grcBt  force  in  the  remark*  of  Mi  Sherman,  that  he  who  has  proved 
himself  to  be»  most  fit  for  an  Office,  ought  not  to  be  excluded  by  the 
constitution  from  holding  it.  He  would  therefore  prefer  any  other 
reasonable  plan  that  could  be  substituted.  He  was  much  disposed 
to  think  that  in  such  cases  the  people  at  large  would  chuse  wisely. 
There  was  indeed  some  difficulty  arising  from  the  improbability  of 
a  general  concurrence  of  the  people  in  favor  of  any  one  man.  On 
the  whole  he  was  of  opinion  that  an  appointment  by  electors  chosen 
by  the  people  for  the  purpose,  would  be  liable  to  fewest  objections. 

M!  Pattebson's  ideas  nearly  coincided  he  said  with  those  of  M5 
King,  He  proposed  that  the  Executive  should  be  appointed  by 
Electors  to  be  chosen  by  the  States  in  a  ratio  that  would  allow  one 
elector  to  the  smallest  and  three  to  the  largest  States. 

W.  Wilson.  It  seems  to  be  the  unanimous  sense  that  the  Execu- 
tive should  not  be  appointed  by  the  Legislature,  unless  he  be  rendered 
in-eligible  a  2?  time :  he  perceived  with  pleasure  that  the  idea  was  gain- 
ing ground,  of  an  election  mediately  or  immediately  by  the  people. 

Mr  Madison  If  it  be  a  fundamental  principle  of  free  Qov^  that 
the  Legislative,  Executive  &  Judiciary  powers  should  be  separatay 
exercised,  it  is  equally  so  that  they  be  independently  exercimd.  There 
is  the  same  &  perhaps  greater  reason  why  the  Executive  shI  be 
independent  of  the  Leg^lature,  than  why  the  Judiciary  should:  A 
coalition  of  the  two  former  powers  would  be  more  immediately  & 
certainly  dangerous  to  public  liberty.  It  is  essential  then  that  the 
appointment  of  the  Executive  should  either  be  drawn  from  some 
source,  or  held  by  some  tenure,  that  will  give  him  a  free  agency  with 

'  The  word  "  that "  ia  changed  to  "  thwi "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  renairk  "  is  used  in  the  plural  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  words  "  to  be  "  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


286     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEEAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

regard  to  the  Legislature.    This  could  not  be  if  he  wm  to  be  appoint, 
able  from  time  to  time  by  the  Legiriature.    It  wa«  not  clear  that  mi 
appointment  in  the  1*  initance  even  with  an  ineligibUity  af terwarda 
would  not  establish  an  improper  connection  between  the  two  depart- 
ments.   Certain  it  was  that  the  appointment  would  be  attended  with 
intrigues  and  contentions  that  ought  not  to  be  unnecessarily  ad- 
mitted    He  was  disposed  for  these  reasons  to  refer  the  appointment 
to  some  other  source.    The  people  at  large  was  in  his  opinion  the 
fittest  in  itself.    It  would  be  as  liliely  as  any  that  could  be  devisedto 
produce  an  Executive  Magistrate  of  distinguished  Character.    The 
people  generally  could  only  know  &  vote  for  some  Citizen  whose 
merits  had  rendered  him  an  object  of  general  attention  &  esteem. 
There  was  one  difficulty  however  of  a  serious  nature  attending  an 
immediate  choice  by  the  people.    The  right  of  suffrage  waa  much 
more  diffusive  in  the  Northern  than  the  Southern  Stata;  and  the 
latter  could  have  no  influence  in  thr  election  on  the  score  of  the 
NegroM.     The  substitution  of  electors  obviated  this  difSculty  and 
seemed  on  the  whole  to  be  liable  to  fewest  objections. 

MI  Gerry.  If  the  Executive  is  to  be  elected  by  the  Legislature 
he  certainly  ought  not  to  be  re-eligible.  This  would  make  him  abso- 
lutely dependent.  He  waa  ag!*  a  popular  election.  The  people 
are  uninformed,  and  would  be  misled  by  a  few  designmg  men.  He 
urged  the  expediency  of  an  appointment  of  the  Executive  by  Electors 
to  be  chosen  by  the  State  Executives.  The  people  of  the  States 
wUl  then  choose  the  «'  branch:  The  legislatures  of  the  States  the 
21  branch  of  the  National  Legislature,  and  the  Executives  of  the 
States,  the  National  Executive.  This  he  thought  would  form  a  strong 
attachn^  in  the  States  to  the  National  System.  The  popular  m  ide 
of  electing  the  chief  Magistrate  would  certainly  be  the  worst  of  aU. 
If  he  should  be  so  elected  &  should  do  his  duty,  he  will  be  turned 
out  for  it  like  Gov'.  Bowdoin  in  Mass-.  &  President  Sullivan  in  N. 

Hamshire.  .  .j      __« 

On  the  question  on  MS  Gov?  Morris  motion  to  reconsider  gen- 
erally the  constitution  of  the  Executive. 

Mas.  ay.   d  ay.   N.  J.  ay  &  all  the  others  ay.»         .  ^    ,^    „  „ 

M!  Elsev?obth  moved  to  strike  out  the  appomtm?  by  the  Wat 

Legislature,  and'  insert  "  to  be  chosen  by  electors  appointed,  by  the 

Legislatures  of  the  States  in  the  following  ratio;  towit-one  for 

each  State  not  exceeding  200,000  inhab-  two  for  each  above  y. 

'  In  the  tranicript  the  vote  re»dt:  "  Ma.sachuKttt.  Coimectlcut,  New  JeMey, 

mud  all  the  others,  aye."  .  ,    ^.     ^         _i  ♦ 

"xiie  word  "  to  '^  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAY,  JULY  19,  1787 


28T 


number  ft  not  exeeeding  300,000.  and  three  for  OMh  State  exceeding 
300,000.— M'.  Broohs  2<f  the  motion 

W  BuTLiDOS  wae  opposed  to  all  the  modes  except  the  appointml 
by  the  Nat'  Legialatnre.  He  will  be  raiBciently  independent,  if  he 
be  not  re-eligible. 

Ml  Oerht  preferred  the  motion  of  M!  Elieworth  to  an  appointm^ 
hy  the  Nat!  Legialatnre,  or  by  the  people;  tho'  not  to  an  app*.  by 
the  State  ExecntiTes.  He  moved  that  the  electors  proposed  by 
M'.  E.  should  be  25  in  number,  and  allotted  in  the  following  pro- 
portion, to  N.  H.  1.  to  Mas.  3.  to  R.  1. 1.  to  Ck>ni  2.  to  N.  Y.  2.*  N.  J.  2. 
'Pt3.»Del.l.   »M'i2.»V?3.'N.C.2.»S.  C.2.   »Geo.l. 

The  question  as  moved  by  Ml  Elseworth  being  divided,  on  the  1? 
part  shall  y*.  Nat'  Executive  be  appointed  by  Electors  t 

Mas.  div^  Corf  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  K  ay.  Del.  ay.  M?  ay.  V? 
ay.  N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

On '  21  part  shall  the  Electors  be  chosen  by '  State  Legislatures  t 
Mas.  ay.    Con?  ay.    N.  J.  ay.    P?  ay.    Del.  ay.    M  ay.    Vi  no. 
N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  no.   Geo.  ay.* 

The  part  relating  to  the  ratio  in  which  the  States  ifi  chuae  electors 
was  postponed  nem.  con. 

M!  L.  Martin  moved  that  the  Executive  be  ineligible  a  21  time. 
MT  WiLUAHBON  21*  the  motion.  He  had  no  great  confidence  in 
the  Electorp  to  be  chosen  for  the  special  purpose.  They  would  not  be 
the  most  respectable  citizens;  but  persons  not  occupied  in  the  high 
offices  of  Gov!  They  would  be  liable  to  undue  influence,  which  might 
the  more  readily  be  practised  as  some  of  them  will  probably  be  in 
appointment  6  or  8  months  before  the  object  of  it  comes  on. 

Mr  Elsewobtb  supposed  any  persons  might  be  appointed  Eleiy 
tors,  excepting  ■  solely,  members  of  the  Nat'  Legislature. 
On  the  question  shall  he  be  ineligible  a  21  timet 
Mas.  no.    C\  no.    N.  J.  no.   P!  no.    DeL  no.    Ml  no.   V?  no.    N.  C. 
ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.* 


>  The  word  "  to  "  U  here  inaerted  in  the  traaicript. 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  .\'ew  Jersey,  Pennsylvania, 
Delaware,  Maryland.  Virginia,  aye— «;  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia, 
no— 3;  MaesachtuettB,  dtrided." 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  " Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Now 
.Tersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8; 
Virginia,  South  Carolina,  no— 8." 

•  The  word  "  except "  is  suhstitnted  In  the  transcript  for  "  excepting." 

•  In  the  transcript  the  rot*  reads:  "  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye— 2; 
Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  FemuylTanis,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
Virginia,  Georgia,  no— 8." 


288      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

On  the  qnertion  ShaU  the  Executive  continue  for  7  yewet  It 
pasMd  in  the  negative 

Maa.  div*  Conl  ay.»  N.  J.  no.»  K  no.  Del.  no.  W  na  V?  no. 
N.  C.  divl   8.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.» 

Mr  Kino  waa  afraid  wc  ahl  ehorten  the  term  too  much. 

IE  Gov'.  Mowis  waa  for  a  ahort  term,  in  order  to  avoid  im- 
peach*  which  w*  be  otherwiw  neceawry. 

MI  BtJTUCR  waa  ag?  a*  frequency  of  the  electiona.  Geo.  *  S.  C. 
were  too  diatant  to  send  electora  often. 

Ml  Elbeworth  waa  for  6.  years.  If  the  electiona  be  too  frequent, 
the  Executive  will  not  be  firm  eno'.  There  muat  be  dutiee  which  wiU 
make  him  unpopular  for  the  moment.  There  will  be  ©«»««  aa  weU  ai 
im.     His    administration   therefore   wUl    be    attacked    and    mia- 

represented. 

M5  Williamson  waa  for  6  yearn.  The  expence  will  be  conaider- 
able  &  ought  not  to  be  unnecessarily  repeated.  If  the  Electiona  are 
too  frequent,  the  best  men  wiU  not  undertake  the  service  and  those 
of  an  inferior  character  will  be  liable  to  be  corrupted. 

On »  question  for  6  yearal 

Maa.  ay.    ConI  ay.    N.  J.  ay.    P*  ay.    Del.no.    MS  ay.    V»  ay. 

N.  Cay.   S.  Cay.   Geo.  ay.* 

Adjourned 


Pbidat  July  20.  m  Convintion 
The  postponed'  Ratio  of  Electora  for  appointing  the  Executiw; 
to  wit  1  for  each  State  whoae  inhabitanta  do  not  exceed  100,000, 

Ac.  being  taken  up.  .      .        „  i« 

Mt  Madison  observed  that  this  would  make  in  time  all  or  nearly 
all  the  States  equal.  Since  there  were  few  that  would  not  in  time 
contain  the  number  of  inhabitants  intitling  them  to  3  Electora:  that 
this  ratio  ought  either  to  be  made  temporary,  or  so  varied  as  that  it 
would  adjust  itself  to  the  growing  population  of  the  States. 
•  In  the  printed  Jourwil  Con«,  no:  N.  Jeriey  »y 


'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  re»d.:  "  Connecticut  •  South  Carohna,  GeorgU, 
aye-3  N^w  Jer«^,*  PenniylvmnU.  Delaware,  Maryland,  VirginU.  n«^. 
Maasachusetti.  North  Carolina,  divided."  ,  *  ,^,  .. .  .. 

•The  word  "  the"  is  Bubstitutcd  in  the  transcript  for  "a. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  i«  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

.i?tle  transcript  th.  vote  re«l.:  "M..»chu«.tt.,  Conn«tic«t^  »^ 
JerK^,    Pennsylvania,    Maryland.   Virginia.   North   Carolina.    South    Carolina. 

'"'^'^^^'^V'^l^^^-'C  substituted  in  the  tran«:ript  f or  "  postponed." 

•  irthe  figure  "100,000"  the  "1"  U  croaaed  out  and  a  figure  2  » 
written  above  it  in  the  transcript 


SESSION  OF  FRIDAY,  JULY  20,  1787 


jn  Gebby  moved  that  in  the  IC  initanet  the  Eleeton  ihoold  b« 
allotted  to  the  SUtet  in  the  following  ntio:  to  N.  H.  1.  Mu.  3. 
R.  I.  1.  ConJ  2.  N.  Y.  2.  N.  J.  2.  Pt  3.  Del.  1.  M^  2.  V»  3. 
N.  C.  2.    8.  C.  2.    Geo.  1. 

On  the  question  to  postpone  in  order  to  take  up  this  motion  of 
M'.  Oerry.    It  paaMd  in  the  affirmative 

Maa.  ay.  ConJ  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  no.  M*  no.  V!  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.   8.  Cay.   Geo.  ay.* 

Mr  EuffiWORTH  moved  that  2  Electors  be  allotted  to  N.  H.  Some 
rule  ought  to  be  pursued ;  and  N.  H.  haa  more  than  100,000  inhabi- 
tants.   He  thought  it  would  be  proper  also  to  allot  2.  to  Georgia 

Mt  Broom  ft  W.  Martin  moved  to  postpone  Mt  Gerry's  allotment 
of  Electors,  leaving  a  fit  ratio  to  be  reported  by  the  Committee  to  be 
appointed  for  detailing  the  Resolutions. 

On  this  motion. 

Mas.  no.  Ci  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P!  no.  Del.  ay.  M^  ay.  V*  no. 
N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

M'.  Houston  2*?*  the  motion  of  M!  Elseworth  to  add  another 
Elector  to  N.  H.  ft  Georgie.    On  the  Question: 

Mas.  no.  G  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M*  no.  V?  na 
N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Mt  WiLUAMSON  moved  as  an  amendment  to  M'.  Gerry  V  allot" 
ment  of  Electors  in  the  l!»  instance  that  in  future  elections  Nat' 

Executive,  the  number  of  Electors  to  be  appointed  by  the  seve.  itatea 
shall  be  regulated  by  their  respective  numbers  of  Representatives  in 
the  1!'  branch  pursuing  as  nearly  as  may  be  the  present  proportions. 

On  question  on  Mr  Gerry's  ratio  of  Electors 

Mas.  ay.  C  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del  no.  M«  no.  V»  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.* 

°"to  be  removeable  on  impeachment  and  conviction  for  mal 
practice  or  neglect  of  duty."  see  Resol :  9.* 


■In  the  trsnacript  the  vote  read*:  "Mumchuutts.  Peninylvani*,  VirginU, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  Connecticut,  New  Jeraey, 
Delaware,  Maryland,  no— «."  ■.,      ,     . 

'In  the  tranacript  the  vote  readi:  "New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
aye— 3;  Mauachuietts,  Connecticut,  Pennaylvania,  Virginia,  North  Carolina, 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 7." 

•In  the  tranacript  the  vote  readi:  "Connecticut,  South  Carolina,  Georgia, 
ayo— 3 ;  Masnchusetts,  New  Jeraey,  PennayWania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia, 
Xorth  Carolina,  no— 7." 

•In  the  tranacript  the  vote  reada:  " Maaaachu»etta,  Connecticut,  Pennayl- 
vania, Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye— 6;  New  Jeraey,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Georgia,  no—*." 

'  The  word*  "  On  the  clause  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  words  "  the  ninth  Beaolution "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"Ecsol:  3." 


S90     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


IV  PiKKNXT  ft  W  Qoy'.  MoRHS  moved  to  itrike  out  this  part  of 
the  ReiolutioD.  Mt  P.  obiervl  he  ought  not  to  be  impeachable  whiltt 
io  office 

M'  Davix.  If  he  be  not  impeachable  whilit  in  office,  he  will  tpare 
no  effort!  or  means  whatever  to  get  himself  reelected.  He  con- 
sidered this  as  an  essential  security  for  the  good  behavioar  of  the 
Executive. 

H!  WiLBON  concurred  in  the  necessitjr  of  making  the  Ezeentive 
impeachable  whilst  in  office. 

M?  Govf  Moiutis.  He  can  do  no  criminal  act  without  Coadjutors 
who  may  be  punished,  n  case  he  should  be  re-elected,  that  will  be ' 
sufficient  proof  of  his  innocence.  Besides  who  is  to  impeach  t  Is  the 
impeachment  to  suspend  his  funi^ons.  If  it  is  not  the  mischief  will 
go  on.  If  it  is  the  impeachment  will  be  nearly  equivalent  to  a  dis- 
placement, and  will  render  the  Executive  dependent  on  those  who 
are  to  impeach 

Col.  Mason.  No  point  is  of  more  importance  than  that  the  right 
of  impeachment  should  be  continued.  Shall  any  man  be  above  Jus- 
tice T  Above  all  shall  that  man  be  above  it,  who  can  commit  the 
most  extensive  injustice  t  When  great  crimes  were  committed  he 
was  for  punishing  the  principal  as  well  as  the  Coadjutors.  There 
had  been  much  debate  &  difBculty  as  to  the  mode  of  chusing  the 
Executive.  He  approved  of  that  which  had  been  adopted  at  first, 
namely  of  referring  the  appointment  to  the  Nat!  Legislature.  One 
objection  ag^  Electors  was  the  danger  of  their  being  corrupted  by 
the  Candidates;  ft  this  furnished  a  peculiar  reason  in  fLvor  of  im- 
peachments whilst  in  office.  Shall  the  man  who  has  practised  cor- 
ruption ft  by  that  means  procured  his  appointment  in  the  first  in- 
stance, be  suffered  to  escape  punishment,  by  repeating  his  guiltt 

Doct  Fbakklin  was  for  retaining  the  clause  as  favorable  to  the 
Executive.  History  furnishes  one  example  only  of  a  first  Magistrate 
being  formally  brought  to  public  Justice.  Every  body  cried  out 
tLg^  this  as  unconstitutional.  What  was  the  practice  before  this  in 
cases  where  the  chief  Magistrate  rendered  himself  obnoxious!  Why 
recourse  was  had  to  assassination  in  w"^  he  was  not  only  deprived  of 
his  life  but  of  the  opportunity  of  vindicating  his  character.  It  w^ 
be  the  best  way  therefore  to  provide  in  the  Constitution  for  the 
regular  punishment  of  the  Executive  where  his  misconduct  should 
deserve  it,  and  for  his  hcmorable  acquittal  when '  he  should  be  un- 
justly accused. 

'  The  word  "  a  "  i»  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  word  "  where  "  is  substituted  in  the  transeript  for  "  when." 


SESSION  OP  PBIDAY,  JULY  20,  1787 


111 


M!  Oovf  MoHUS  Mbnits  eomiptkm  A  Mint  few  othtr  offtncti  to 
be  euch  u  ouijht  to  h*  impMMbabk;  but  thfUfht  th*  esMt  ou^t  to 
be  ennmentod  A  defined: 

W  BlAoooM  tlumfht  it  iadkiMnMbto  thrt  Mm*  prariikm  diooid 
be  made  for  defending  tho  Commonlty  •«?  the  inei4>Mit]r.  n«fW- 
Renee  or  perfidy  of  the  ehief  Mniietrtte.  The  limitation  of  the 
period  of  hie  eerrico,  wm  not  •  tuflkient  eeciiritjr.  He  might  loM 
hii  capacity  after  hie  appointment  He  might  penrert  hi*  ad- 
miniitrttion  into  a  eeheme  of  peculation  or  oppreaion.  Ha 
might  betray  hia  tmat  to  foreign  powen.  The  eaM  of  the  B«ecutiTa 
Magirtracy  waa  wry  dietinguiehaMe,  from  that  of  the  LefiaUtura  or 
of  any  other  pnbUo  body,  holding  oflElcea  of  limited  duration.  It  Muld 
not  be  preeumed  that  ail  or  even  a  majority  of  tho  membert  of  an 
AMcmbly  would  either  Iom  their  eapadty  for  diaeharging,  or  be 
bribed  to  betray,  their  tmat  Beddw  th*  reatrainU  of  their  per- 
sonal  integrity  A  honor,  the  dilBeulty  of  aeting  in  concert  for  pur- 
poeee  of  corruption  waa  a  aecurity  to  th*  public  And  if  on*  or  a 
few  member*  only  ahould  be  eeduced,  the  Mundneee  of  th*  rwaain. 
ing  membere,  would  maintain  the  integrity  and  fideUty  of  th*  body. 
In  the  caee  of  the  ^  -<^tiT*  Magiatracy  which  WM  to  b*  adminiatered 
by  a  lingle  man,  l  of  capacity  or  wrruption  wm  mora  within 
the  compaaa  of  probable  erenta,  and  eithmr  of  than  might  b*  fatal  to 
the  Republic. 

MI  PiNHJKT  did  not  ae*  th*  n*oeaaity  of  impeachmenta.  H*  wm 
rare  they  ought  not  to  iaau*  from  th*  Legialature  who  would  in  that 
oaae  hold  them  aa  a  rod  orer  the  Bxecutiye  and  by  that  meana  effec- 
tually destroy  hia  independence.  His  rerisionary  power  in  particular 
would  be  rendered  altogether  insignificant. 

Mr  Gebrt  urged  the  neeesnty  of  impeachments.  A  good  magia- 
trate  will  not  fear  them.  A  bad  one  ought  to  be  kept  in  fear  of 
them.  He  hoped  th*  maxim  would  never  be  adopted  hero  that  tha 
chief  magistrate  could  do  no  wrong. 

M'.  Kmo  expressed  hia  apprehensions  that  in  extreme  caution  in 
favor  of  liberty  might  enervate  th*  Govemment  we  wero  forming. 
He  wished  the  House  to  recur  to  the  primitive  axiom  that  the  three 
great  departments  of  Gov*  should  be  separate  A  independent:  that 
the  Executive  &  Judic'iry  ahould  be  M  aa  well  aa  the  Legislative: 
that  the  Executive  should  be  n  equally  with  the  Judiciary.  Would 
this  be  the  case,  if  the  Executive  should  b*  impeachaUef  It  had  been 
said  that  the  Judiciary  would  be  impeachable.  But  it  ahould  have 
been  remembered  at  the  same  time  that  tho  Judiciary  hold  their 
places  pot  for  a  limited  time,  but  during  good  behaviour.    It  is  neces- 


292      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Bary  therefore  that  a  forum  should  be  establiihed  for  trying  mia- 
behaviour.  Was  the  Executive  to  hold  his  place  during  good  be- 
haviour t  The  Executive  was  to  hold  his  place  for  a  limited  term  like 
the  members  of  the  Legislature:  Like  them  particularly  the  Senate 
whose  members  would  continue  in  appointm'  the  same  term  of  6 
years  he  would  periodically  be  tried  for  his  behaviour  by  his  electors, 
who  would  continue  or  discontinue  him  in  trust  according  to  the 
manner  in  which  he  had  discharged  it.  Like  them  therefore,  he 
ought  to  be  subject  to  no  intermediate  trial,  by  impeachment.  He 
ought  not  to  be  impeachable  unless  he  held  his  office  during  good  be- 
havior, a  tenure  which  would  be  moat  agreeable  to  him;  provided  an 
independent  and  effectual  forun  could  be  devised.  But  under  no 
circumstances  ought  he  to  be  impeachable  by  the  Legislature.  This 
would  be  destructive  of  his  independence  and  of  the  principles  of 
the  Constitution.  He  relied  on  the  vigor  of  the  Executive  as  a 
great  secur  iy  for  the  public  liberties. 

M:  Randolph.  The  propriety  of  impeachments  was  a  favorite 
principle  with  him.  Guilt  wherever  found  ought  to  be  punished.  The 
Executive  will  have  great  opportunitys  of  abusing  his  power;  par- 
ticularly in  time  of  war  when  the  military  force,  and  in  some  respects 
the  public  money  wiU  be  in  his  hands.  Should  no  regular  punish- 
ment be  provided,  it  will  be  irregularly  inflicted  by  tumults  &  in- 
surrections. He  is  aware  of  the  necessity  of  proceeding  with  a 
cautious  hand,  and  of  excluding  as  much  as  possible  the  influence 
of  the  Legislature  from  the  business.  He  suggested  for  consideration 
an  idea  which  had  faUen  [from  Col  Hamilton]  of  composing  a  forum 
out  of  the  Judges  belonging  to  the  States:  and  even  of  requiring 
some  preliminary  inquest  whether  just  grounds*  of  impeachment 

existed. 

DoctT  Frankun  mentioned  the  case  of  the  Prince  of  Orange  dur- 
ing the  late  war.  An  agreement  was  made  between  France  &  Hol- 
land; by  which  their  two  fleets  were  to  unite  at  a  certain  time  & 
place.  The  Dutch  fleet  did  not  appear.  Every  body  began  to  wonder 
at  it.  At  length  it  was  suspected  that  the  Statholder  was  at  the 
bottom  of  the  matter.  This  suspicion  prevailed  more  &  more.  Y(\ 
as  he  could  not  be  impeached  and  no  regular  examination  took 
place,  he  remained  in  his  office,  and  strengtheing  his  own  party, 
as  the  party  opposed  to  him  became  formidable,  he  gave  birth  to  the 
most  violent  animosities  &  contentions.  Had  he  been  impeachable, 
a  regular  &  peaceable  enquiry  would  have  taken  place  and  he  would 


*  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  grounds  "  in  the  singular. 


SESSION  OP  PBIDAT,  JULY  20,  1787 


293 


if  goaty  have  been  duly  punished,  if  innocent  rertored  to  the  con- 
fidence  of  the  public. 

m  Kino  remarked  that  the  case  of  the  Statholder  was  not 
applicable.  He  held  his  place  for  U  <  and  was  not  penodicaUy 
elected  In  the  former  case  impeachments  arc  proper  to  secure  good 
behaviour.  In  the  latter  they  are  unnecessary,  the  periodical  re- 
sponsibility to  the  electors  being  an  equivalent  security. 

Mr  Wn^K  observed  that  if  the  idea  were  to  be  pursued^  the 
Senators  who  are  to  hold  their  places  during  the  same  term  with  the 
Executive,  ought  to  be  subject  to  impeachment  &  removal. 

Mr  PiNKNET  apprehended  that  some  genUemen  reasoned  on  a 
supposition  that  the  Executive  was  to  have  powers  which  would  nut 
be  committed  to  him:  He  presumed  that  his  powers  would  be  so 
circumscribed  as  to  render  impeachments  unnecessary. 

Mr  Gov*.  MoBMs's  opinion  had  been  changed  by  the  arguments 
used  in  the  discussion.    He  was  now  sensible  of  the  necessity  of 
impeachments,  if  the  Executive  was  to  continue  for  any^  time  in 
office.    Our  Executive  was  not  like  a  Magistrate  having  «  ^e  «»- 
terest,  much  less  like  one  having  an  hereditary  interest  in  his  office 
He  may  be  bribed  by  a  greater  interest  to  betray  his  tnist;  and 
no  one  would  say  that  we  ought  to  expose  ourselves  to  the  danger  of 
seeing  the  first  Magistrate  in  forign  pay,  without  bemg  able  to  guard 
ag-.'  it  by  displacing  him.    One  would  think  the  King  of  Englimd 
well  secured  ag!'  bribeiy.    He  has  a.  it  were  a  fee  ""^P^^'^^" 
whole  Kingdom.    Yet  Charles  II  was  bnbea  by  Louis  XIV.    The 
Executive  ought  therefore  to  be  impeachable  for  treachery;  Corrupt- 
ing  his  electors,  and  incapacity  were  other  causes  of  unpeachment. 
For  the  latter  he  should  be  punished  not  as  a  man,  but  as  an  offtcer, 
and  punished  only  by  degradation  from  his  oflSce.    Thui  Magist«^  » 
not  the  King  but  the  prime-Minister.    The  people  are  the  King,  m^ 
we  make  him  amenable  to  Justice  however  we  should  take  care  to  pro- 
vide  some  mode  that  wiU  not  mate  him  dependent  on  the  Legislature. 
It  was  moved  &  2*?*  to  postpone  the  question  ot  impeachments 
which  was  negatived.    Mas.  &  S.  Carolina  only  being  ay. 

On  y?  Question,  Shall  the  Executive  be  removeable  on  impeach- 
ments &c.t  _  .  ,,.  TT.    .„ 

Mas.  no.    CJ  ay.    N.  J.  ay.    P?  ay.    Del  ay.    W  ay.    V?  sy. 

N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.' 


■  The  word*  "  lenirtli  of  "  are  kere  Inierted  in  the  tranicript  .„.„!. 

•In  th7tranJr"fthe  vote  read.:  "  Connecttoit.  ^^^"^7'^^^^^ 
Delaware.  Maryland.  VirginU,  North  Carolin*.  Georgia.  ay»-8i  Massachuaetta, 
tjouth  Carolina,  no — 2." 


294     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

' '  *  Executive  to  receive  fixed  compensation, ' '  Agreed  to  nem.  con. 

"  to  be  paid  out  of  the  National  Treasury  "  agreed  to,  N.  Jersey 
only  in  the  negative. 

m  Gerbt  & »  Govt  Mosbis  moved  "  that  the  Electors  of  the  Execu- 
tive shall  not  be  members  of  the  Nat?  Legislature,  nor  officers  of  the 
U.  States,  nor  shall  the  Electors  themselves  be  eligible  to  the  supreme 
magistracy."    Agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Doc?  M5CLDBG  asked  whether  it  would  not  be  necessary,  before 
a  Committee  for  detailing  the  Constitution  should  be  appointed,  to 
determine  on  the  means  by  which  the  Executive  is  to  carry  the 
laws  into  effect,  and  to  resist  combinations  agf  them.  Is  he  to  have 
a  military  force  for  the  purpose,  or  to  have  the  command  of  the 
Militia,  the  only  existing  force  that  can  be  applied  to  that  use!  As 
the  Resolutions  now  stand  the  Committee  will  have  no  determinate 
directions  on  this  great  point. 

M!  Wilson  thousrht  that  some  additional  directions  to  the  Com- 
mittee w1  be  necesi^iry. 

JK  Kino.  The  Committee  are  to  provide  for  the  end.  Their 
discretionary  power  to  provide  for  the  means  ia  involved  according  to 
an  established  axiom. 

Adjourned 


Satdbdat  July  21  in  Convkntion 

Mt  Williamson  moved  that  the  Electors  of  the  Executive  should 
be  paid  out  of  the  National  Treasury  for  the  Service  to  be  performed 
by  them."  Justice  required  this:  as  it  was  a  national  service  they 
were  to  render.    The  motion  was  agreed  to  Nem.  Con. 

W-  Wilson  moved  as  an  amendment  to  Resol?  10.»  that  the  supreme 
Nat'  Judiciary  should  be  associated  with  the  Executive  in  the  Be- 
visionary  power."  This  proposition  had  been  before  made  and  failed: 
but  he  was  so  confirmed  by  reflection  in  the  opinion  of  its  utility,  that 
he  thought  it  incumbent  on  him  to  make  another  effort :  The  Judi- 
ciarj'  ought  to  have  an  opportunity  of  remonstrating  agf*  projected 
encroachments  on  the  people  as  well  as  on  themselves.  It  had  been 
said  that  the  Judges,  as  expositors  of  the  Laws  would  have  an  oppor- 
tunity of  defending  their  constitutional  rights.  There  was  weight 
in  this  observation;  but  this  power  of  the  Judges  did  not  go  far 

'  The  word  "  The  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  word  "  Mr."  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
•  The  words  "  the  tenth  Resolution  "  are  substituted  for  "  Resolo  10." 


SESSION  OF  SATUBDAY,  JULY  21,  1787 


295 


enongh.  Laws  may  be  onjiut,  may  be  tmww.,  may  be  dangeroM, 
may  be  dertructive;  and  yet  may  not  be  "J»°«««^*»*J*»^  "  ^ 
iuBtify  the  Judges  in  refusing  to  give  them  effect  Let  »«=»  "^  » 
share  in  the  Bevisionary  power,  and  they  wiU  hare  an  opportnm^ 
of  taking  notice  of  these » charactem  of  a  law,  and  of  counteracting,  by 
the  weight  of  their  opinions  the  improper  views  of  the  LeguOature.— 
m  Madison  2*r«  the  motion  ,    .      .v    t  j— 

MJ  Ghobum  did  not  see  the  advantage  of  employing  the  Judgea 
in  this  way.  As  Judges  they  are  not  to  be  presumed  to  possess  any 
peculiar  knowledge  of  the  mere  policy  of.  public  measure^  Nor  cm 
it  be  necessary  as  a  security  for  their  constitutional  n^ito.  m 
Judges  in  England  have  no  such  additional  provision  for  theur  de- 
fence yet  their  jurisdiction  is  not  invaded.  He  thought  it  would  be 
best  to  let  the  Executive  alone  be  responsible,  and  at  mort  to  authorise 
him  to  call  on »  Judges  for  their  opinions.  ™.      •  •■  ^  *t 

MI  BuBEWOWH  approved  heartUy  of  the  motion.  The  aid  ofthe 
Judges  will  give  more  wisdom  &  firmness  to  the  Executive.  'Hiey 
will  possess  a  systematic  and  accurate  knowledge  of  the  Laws,  which 
the  Executive  can  not  be  expected  always  to  possess.  The  law  of 
Nations  also  will  frequently  come  into  question.  Of  this  the  Judges 
alone  will  have  competent  information. 

M'.  Madison  considered  the  object  of  the  motion  i.    ..  great  im- 
portance to  the  meditated  Constitution.    It  would  br   iseful  to  tiie 
Judiciary  departm*  by  giving  it  an  additional  oppc^^amty  of  de- 
fending  itself  agf  Legislative  encroachments;    It  would  be  useful  to 
the  Executive,  by  inspiring  additional  confidence  &  firmness  m  exert- 
ing the  revisionary  power:  It  would  be  useful  to  the  Legislature 
by  the  valuable  awstance  it  would    give  in  preservmg  a  con- 
sistency, conciseness,  perspicuity  ft  technical  propriety  in  the  lawa, 
qualities  peculiarly  necessary;  ft  yet  shamefully  w^tmg  in  our 
repubUcan  Codes.   It  would  moreover  be  useful  to  the  Community  at 
large  as  an  additional  check  ag-  a  pursuit  of  those  unwise  &  onjMt 
measures  which  constituted  so  great  a  portion  of  our  calamties.    If 
any  soUd  objection  could  be  urged  agf  the  motion,  it  must  be  on  the 
supposition  that  it  tended  to  give  too  much  strength  ei^er  to  the 
Executive  or  Judiciary.   He  did  not  think  there  was  the  least  growad 
for  this  apprehension.    It  was  much  more  to  be  apprehended  that 
notwithstanding  this  co-operation  of  the  two  departmenta,  the  Legis- 
lature would  still  be  an  overmatch  for  them.    Experience  m  aU  the 
States  had  evinced  a  powerful  tendency  in  the  Legislature  to  absorb 

iThe  word  "those"  i»  robstituted  In  the  transcript  for  " these." 
•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


296     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

all  power  into  iti  vortex.  This  wm  the  real  soarce  of  danger  to  the 
American  Conttitationa ;  &  soggeited  the  necessity  of  giving  every 
defensive  authority  to  the  other  departments  that  was  consistent  with 
republican  principles. 

Ml  Mason  said  he  had  always  been  a  friend  to  this  provision.  It 
would  give  a  confidence  to  the  Executive,  which  he  would  not  other- 
wise have,  and  without  which  the  Bevisionaty  power  would  be  of 
little  avail. 

M'.  Oehst  did  not  expect  to  see  this  point  which  had  undergone 
full  discussion,  again  revived.  The  object  he  conceived  of  the  Be* 
visionary  power  was  merely  to  secure  the  Executive  department  ag?* 
legislative  encroachment.  The  Executive  therefore  who  will  best 
know  and  be  ready  to  defend  his  rights  oughi:  alone  U  have  the 
defence  of  them.  The  motion  was  liable  to  strong  ubjeotions.  It 
was  combining  &  mixing  together  the  Legislative  &  the  other  depart- 
ments. It  was  establishing  an  improper  coalition  between  the  Execu- 
tive &  Judiciary  departments.  It  was  making  Statesmen  of  the 
Judges;  and  setting  them  up  as  the  guardians  of  the  Rights  of  the 
people.  He  relied  for  his  part  on  the  Representatives  of  the  pi' .  'e 
as  the  guardians  of  their  Bights  &  interests.  It  was  making  the 
Expositors  of  the  Laws,  the  Legislators  which  ought  never  to  be 
done.  A  better  expedient  for  correcting  the  laws,  would  be  to  appoint 
as  had  been  done  in  Pent  a  person  or  persons  of  proper  skill,  to 
draw  bills  for  the  Legislature. 

M^  Stbonq  thought  with  W.  Gerry  that  the  power  of  making 
ought  to  be  kept  distinct  from  that  of  expounding,  the  laws.  No 
maxim  was  better  established.  The  Judges  in  exercising  the  func- 
tion of  expositors  might  be  influenced  by  the  part  they  had  taken, 
in  framing  ^  the  laws. 

Mt  Gov?  MoRBiB.  Some  check  being  necessary  on  the  Legislature, 
the  question  is  in  what  hands  it  should  be  lodged.  On  one  sJde  it  was 
contended  that  the  Executive  alone  ought  to  exercise  it  He  did 
not  think  that  an  Executive  appointed  for  6  years,  and  impeachable 
whilst  in  office  w*  be  a  very  effectual  check.  On  the  other  side  it  was 
urged  that  he  ought  to  be  reinforced  by  the  Judiciary  department. 
Agf'  this  it  was  objected  that  Expositors  of  laws  ought  to  have  no 
hmd  in  making  them,  and  arguments  in  favor  of  this  had  been 
drawn  from  England.  What  weight  was  due  to  them  might  be  easily 
determined  by  an  attention  to  facte.  The  truth  was  that  the  Judga 
in  England  had  a  great  share  in  y?  Legislation.    They  are  consulted 


'  The  word  "  passing  "  ig  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  framing." 


SESSION  OP  SATtJBDAT,  JULY  21,  1787 


297 


in  difficult  &  doubtful  caws.    They  may  be  4  tome  of  thwn  are 
members  of  the  Legiriature.    They  are  or  may  be  members  of  tae 
Brivy  Counca,  and  can  there  advise  the  Executive  as  they  wiU  do 
with  us  if  the  motion  succeeds.    The  influence  the  English  JudgM 
may  have  in  the  latter  capacity  in  strengthening  the  Executive  check 
can  not  be  ascertained,  a»  the  King  by  his  influence  in  a  manner 
dictates  the  laws.    There  is  one  difference  in  the  two  Cases  however 
which  disconcerts  aU  reasoning  from  the  British  to  our  propowd 
Constitution.    The  British  Executive  has  so  great  an  mterest  in  bis 
prerogatives  and  such  powerful  means  of  defending  them  that  he 
will  never  yield  any  part  of  them.    The  interest  of  our  Executive 
is  so  inconsiderable  &  so  transitory,  and  his  means  of  defending  it  so 
feeble  that  there  is  the  justest  ground  to  fear  his  want  of  firmness 
in  resisting  incroachments.    He  was  extremely  apprehensive  that  the 
auxiliary  firmness  &  weight  of  the  Judiciary  would  not  supply  the 
deficiency.    He  concurred  in  thinking  the  public  liberty  in  greater 
danger  from  Legislative  usurpations  than  from  any  oUier  source. 
It  had  been  said  that  the  Legislature  ought  to  be  reh^  on  as  the 
proper  Guardians  of  liberty.    The  answer  was  short  and  conclusive. 
Either  bad  laws  will  be  pushed  or  not    On  the  latter  foppoeition  no 
check  will  be  wanted.    On  the  former  a  strong  check  will  be  neces- 
sary •  And  this  is  the  proper  supposition.    Emissions  of  paper  money, 
largesses  to  the  people-a  remission  of  debts  and  similar  measure^ 
will  at  some  times  be  popular,  and  will  be  pushed  for  ^t  i^n 
At  other  times  such  measures  will  coincide  with  the  fatererts  of  the 
Legislature  themselves,  4  that  wiU  be  a  reason  not  less  fogjnt  f or 
pushing  them.   It  may  be  thought  that  the  people  will  not  be  deludsd 
and  misled  in  the  latter  caae.   But  experience  terches  another  lesson. 
The  press  is  indeed  a  great  means  of  diminishing  the  evil,  yet  it  u 
found  to  be  unable  to  prevent  it  altogether. 

W.  L  Mabtin.  Considered  the  association  of  the  Judges  witn  tne 
Executive  as  a  dangerous  innovation;  as  weU  as  one  which ^  could 
not  produce  the  particular  advantage  expected  from  it.  A  knowledge 
of  Mankind,  and  of  LegisUtive  affairs  cannot  be  presumed  to  belong 
in  a  higher  deger  degree  to  the  Judges  than  to  the  Legiriature.  And  as 
to  the  Constitutionality  of  laws,  that  point  wiU  come  before  the  Judges 
in  their  proper"  official  character.  In  this  character  they  have  a 
negative  on  the  laws.  Join  them  with  the  Executive  in  Ae  Revision 
and  they  wUl  have  a  double  negaiive.  It  is  necessary  that  the  Su- 
preme Judiciary  should  have  the  confidence  of  the  people.    This  wiU 

•  The  word  "  that "  is  subitltuted  in  the  trantcript  for  "  whUh." 

•  The  word  "  proper  "  i«  omittHl  in  the  tranicnpt. 


298      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

toon  be  loat,  if  they  are  employed  in  the  task  of  remoiutnting  ag!* 
popular  meaiorea  of  the  Le^latare.  Beaidea  iu  what  mode  4 
proportion  are  they  to  vote  in  the  Council  of  Bevisiont 

H?  Madison  could  not  diacover  in  the  proposed  aaiociation  of 
the  Judges  with  the  Execntive  in  the  Rerisionary  check  on  the  Legis- 
lature any  violation  of  the  maxim  which  requires  the  great  depart- 
menta  of  power  to  be  kept  separate  &  distinct.  On  the  eontrary 
he  thought  it  an  auxiliary  precaution  in  favor  of  the  maxim.  If  a 
Constitutional  discrimination  of  the  departments  on  paper  were  a 
sufScient  security  to  each  agf  encroachments  of  the  others,  all  further 
provisions  would  indeed  be  superfluous.  But  experience  had  taught 
us  a  distrust  of  that  security ;  and  that  it  is  necessary  to  introduce 
such  a  balance  of  powers  and  interests,  as  will  guarantee  the  provi- 
sions on  paper.  Instead  therefore  of  contenting  ourselves  with  l^r- 
ing  down  the  Theory  in  the  Constitution  that  each  department  ought 
to  be  separate  &  distinct,  it  was  proposed  to  add  a  defensive  power 
to  each  which  should  maintain  the  Theory  in  practice.  In  so  doing  we 
did  not  blend  the  departments  together.  We  erected  effectual  bar^ 
riers  for  keeping  them  separate.  The  most  regular  example  of  this 
theory  was  in  the  British  Constitution.  Yet  it  was  not  only  the 
practice  there  to  admit  the  Judges  to  a  seat  in  the  legislature,  and 
in  the  Executive  Councils,  and  to  submit  to  their  previous  examina- 
tion all  laws  of  a  certain  deacripticn,  but  it  was  a  part  of  their 
Constitution  that  the  Executive  might  negative  any  law  whatever; 
a  part  of  ^heir  Constitution  which  had  been  universally  regarded 
as  calculated  for  the  preservation  of  the  whole.  The  objection  agf* 
a  union  of  the  Judiciary  &  Executive  branches  in  the  revision  of  the 
laws,  had  either  no  foundation  or  was  not  carried  far  enough.  If 
such  a  Union  was  an  improper  mixture  of  powers,  or  such  a  Judiciary 
check  on  the  laws,  was  inconsistent  with  the  Theory  of  a  free  Con- 
stitution, it  was  equally  so  to  admit  the  Executive  to  any  participation 
in  the  making  of  laws;  and  the  refvisionary  plan  ought  to  be  dis- 
carded altogether. 

Col.  iMAsoN  Observed  that  the  defence  of  the  Executive  was  not 
the  sole  object  of  the  Revisionary  power.  He  expected  even  greater 
advantages  from  it.  Notwithstanding  the  precautions  taken  in  the 
Constitution  of  the  Legislature,  it  would  still  so  much  resemble  that 
of  the  individual  States,  that  it  must  be  expected  frequently  to  pass 
unjust  and  pernicious  laws.  This  restraining  power  was  therefore 
essentially  necessary.  It  would  have  the  effect  not  only  of  hindering 
the  final  passage  of  such  laws;  but  would  discourage  demagogues 
from  attempting  to  get  them  passed.    It  had  been  said  [by  Mi^  L. 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  JULY  21,  1787  299 

Martin]  that  if  the  Jadges  were  joined  in  thii  check  on  the  lawi, 
they  would  have  a  double  negative,  aince  in  their  expontorjr  capacity 
of  Judges  they  would  have  one  negative.  He  would  reply  that  in 
this  capacity  they  could  impede  in  one  case  only,  the  operation  of 
laws.  They  could  declare  an  unconatitutional  law  void.  But  with 
regard  to  every  law  however  unjuat  oppreaaive  or  pemicioua,  which* 
did  not  come  plainly  under  this  description,  they  would  be  under  the 
necessity  as  Judges  to  give  it  a  free  course.  He  wished  the  further 
use  to  be  made  of  the  Judges,  of  giving  aid  in  preventing  every  im- 
proper law.  Their  aid  will  be  the  more  valuable  aa  they  are  in  the 
habit  and  practice  of  considering  laws  in  their  true  principles,  and 
in  all  their  consequences. 

MI  WuaoN.  The  separation  of  the  departmenta  does  not  require 
that  they  should  have  separate  objects  but  that  they  should  act 
separately  tho'  on  the  same  objects.  It  is  necessary  that  the  two 
branches  of  the  Legislature  should  be  separate  and  distinct,  yet 
they  are  both  to  act  precisely  on  the  same  object. 

Ml  Gebby  had  rather  give  the  Executive  an  absolute  negative  for 
its  own  defence  than  thus  to  blend  together  the  Judiciary  &  Executive 
departments.  It  will  bind  them  together  in  an  offensive  and  de- 
fensive alliance  ag?  the  Legislature,  and  render  the  latter  unwilling 
to  enter  into  a  contest  with  them. 

W-  Gov'.  MoBRiB  was  surprised  that  any  defensive  provision  for 
securing  the  effectual  separation  of  the  d^artments  should  be  con- 
sidered as  an  improper  mixture  of  them.  Suppose  that  the  three 
powers,  were  to  be  vested  in  three  persons,  by  compact  among  them- 
selves; that  one  was  to  have  the  power  of  making,  another  of  execut- 
ing, and  a  third  of  judging,  the  laws.  Would  it  not  be  very  natural 
for  the  two  littei  after  having  settled  the  partition  on  paper,  to 
observe,  and  T/ould  not  candor  oblige  the  former  to  admit,  that  aa  a 
security  ag*  legislative  acts  of  the  former  which  might  easily  be  so 
framed  as  to  undermine  the  powers  of  the  two  others,  the  two 
others  ought  to  be  armed  with  a  veto  for  their  own  defence,  or  at 
least  to  have  an  opportunity  of  stating  their  objections  agi*  acts  of 
encroachment  t  And  would  any  one  pretend  that  such  a  right  tended 
to  blend  &  confound  powers  that  ought  to  be  separately  exercised! 
As  well  might  it  be  said  that  If  three  neighbours  had  three  distinct 
farms,  a  right  in  each  to  defend  his  farm  ag?  his  neighbours,  tended 
to  blend  the  farms  together. 

M'  GHOKtjM.    All  agree  that  a  check  on  the  Legislature  is  neces- 


'  The  word  "  that "  ii  »ub»tituted  in  the  tnucriDt  for  "  which." 


800     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

sary.  Bat  there  are  two  objections  agf  admitting  the  Jadgea  to  ihare 
in  it  which  no  obaervationa  on  the  other  eide  seem  to  obviate,  the 
1?  ia  that  the  Jadgea  oaght  to  carry  into  the  expoaition  of  the  laws 
no  prepoMcasiona  with  regard  to  them.  ^  2fi  that  aa  the  Jadgea  will 
outnumber  the  Executive,  the  revisionary  check  would  be  thrown 
entirely  out  of  the  Executive  hands,  and  instead  of  enabling  him  to 
defend  himself,  would  enable  the  Judges  to  sacrifice  him. 

M»  Wilson.  The  proposition  is  certainly  not  liable  to  all  the 
objections  which  have  been  urged  agf  it.  According  [to  Mf  Oeny] 
it  will  unite  the  Executive  &  Judiciary  in  an  offensive  &  defensive 
alliance  agf*  the  Legislature.  According  to  MT  Qhoram  it  will  lead 
to  a  subversion  of  the  Executive  by  the  Judiciary  influence.  To 
tho  first  gentleman  the  answer  was  obvioua;  that  the  joint  weight 
of  the  two  departmenta  waa  necessary  to  balance  the  single  wei|^t 
of  the  Legislature.  To  the  1?  objection  stated  by  the  other  Gentle- 
man it  might  be  anawered  that  suppoaing  the  prepoauon  to  mix 
itself  with  the  exposition,  the  evil  would  be  overbalanced  by  the 
advantages  promised  by  the  expedient.  To  the  21  objection,  that  such 
a  rule  of  voting  might  be  provided  in  the  detail  aa  would  gnard 
ag?  it. 

MT  RuTLiDGE  thought  the  Judges  of  all  men  the  moat  unfit  to 
be  concerned  in  the  revisionary  Council.  The  Judges  ought  never  to 
give  their  opinion  on  a  law  tiU  it  comes  before  them.  He  thought  it 
equally  unnecessary.  The  Executive  could  advise  with  the  otBcers 
of  State,  aa  of  war,  finance  Ac.  and  avail  himself  of  their  informa- 
tion &  opinions. 

On '  Question  on  Mr  Wilson's  motion  for  joining  the  Judiciary  in 
the  Revision  of  laws  it  passed  in  the  negative— 

Maa.  no.  Coni  ay.  N.  J.  not  present.  P!  divl  Del.  no.  M"?  ay. 
V  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  divl  > 

Resol.  10,  giving  the  Ex.  a  qualified  veto,  without  the  amend' 
was  then  ag^  to  nem.  con.' 

The  motion  made  by  MJ  Madison  July  18.*  &  then  postponed, 
"  that  the  Judges  sh*  be  nominated  by  the  Executive  &  such  nomina- 


'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inierted  in  the  trmnicript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Maryland,  Vlrgnia, 
aye_3;  Massachusetts,  Delaware,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 4;  Penn- 
aylvanift,  Georpa,  divided ;  New  Jersey,  not  present." 

•  This  sentence  has  been  changed  in  the  transcript  to  read  as  follows:  Tlie 
tenth  Resolution,  giving  the  Executive  a  qualified  veto,  requiring  tw-vthlrds  of 
each  branch  of  the  Legislature  to  overrule  it  was  then  agreed  to  nem.  .  m." 

♦  The  date  "  July  18  "  >•  Jianged  in  the  transeript  to  "  on  ibt  i^tmM 
of  July." 


SESSION  OP  SATUBDAT,  JULY  21,  1787 


301 


tiona  become  appointmenta  anleaa  diaagreed  to  by  %  of  the  21  branch 
of  the  Legialature,"  waa  now  reaomed 

M!  Maouok  atatod  aa  hia  reaaona  for  the  motion.  1.*  tbat  it 
Kcured  the  reaponaibility  of  the  EzeentiTe  who  would  in  (eneral 
be  more  capable  &  likely  to  aeleet  fit  charaetera  than  the  Legialatore, 
or  even  .'  24  b.  of  it,  who  mii^t  liide  their  aelfiah  motivea 
under  the  uomber  concerned  in  the  appointment —  2.^  that  in  caae 
of  any  flagrant  partiality  or  error,  in  the  nomination  it  might  be 
fairly  preanmed  that  H  of  the  24  branch  wonld  join  in  patting  a 
negative  on  it.  3.^  that  aa  the  24  b.  waa  very  differently  eonatitnted 
when  the  appointment  of  the  Judgea  waa  formerly  referred  to  it, 
and  waa  now  to  be  eompoaed  of  eqoal  votea  from  all  the  Statea,  the 
principle  of  compromiae  which  had  prerailed  in  other  inatancea 
required  in  thia  that  their  ah!  be  a  oonenrrence  of  two  author- 
ities, in  one  of  which  the  people,  in  the  other  the  Statea,  ahonld  be 
represented.  The  Executive  Magiatrate  w1  be  conaidered  aa  a 
national  ofScer,  acting  for  and  eqnally  aympathiaing  with  every  part 
of  the  U.  States.  If  the  24  branch  alone  ahould  have  thia  power, 
the  Judges  might  be  appointed  by  a  minority  of  the  people,  tho'  by 
a  majority,  of  the  Statea,  which  could  not  be  justified  on  any  prin- 
ciple as  their  proceedings  were  to  relate  to  the  people,  rather  than 
to  the  States:  and  aa  it  wonld  moreover  throw  the  appointmenta 
entirely  into  the  handa  of  y?  Northern  Statea,  a  perpetual  ground 
of  jealousy  ft  discontent  would  be  furnished  to  the  Southern  Statea. 

M'.  Pdocnxt  waa  for  placing  the  appoir.tm.*  in  the  24  b.  exclu- 
sively. The  Executive  will  posaeaa  neither  the  requiaite  knowledge  of 
characters,  nor  confidence  of  the  people  for  ao  high  a  truat. 

Ml  'Randolph  w4  have  preferred  the  mode  of  appointm.*  proposed 
formerly  by  W  Ghorum,  aa  adopted  in  the  Constitution  of  Mass*f 
but  thought  the  motion  depending  ao  great  an  improvonent  of  the 
clause  as  it  stands,  that  he  anxioualy  wished  it  success.  He  laid 
great  stress  on  the  responsibility  of  the  Executive  aa  a  security  for 
fit  appointmenta.  Appointmenta  by  the  Legidaturea  have  generally 
resulted  from  cabal,  from  personal  regard,  or  some  other  considera- 
tion than  a  title  derived  from  the  proper  qualifications.  The  same 
inconveniencies  will  proportionally  prevail,  if  the  appointments  be 
be  referred  to  either  branch  of  the  Legislature  or  to  any  other 
authority  administered  by  a  number  of  indiv.  -uala. 

jVn  Elseworth  would  prefer  a  negative  in  the  Executive  on  a 


'  The  figures  "  1,"  "  2  "  wd  "  3  "  are  oluuiged  to  "  flrrt,"  "  Secondly  "  sud 
■Thirdly"  in  the  transcript. 


802     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

nomination  by  the  2fi  branch,  the  negative  to  be  overruled  by  a  con- 
currence of  %  ot  the  2''  b.  to  the  mode  propoied  by  the  motioo; 
but  preferred  an  abaolate  appointment  by  the  2i  branch  to  either. 
The  Executive  will  be  regarded  by  the  people  with  a  jealoua  eye. 
Every  power  for  augmenting  unneceaiarily  hie  influence  will  be  dis- 
liked. Aa  he  will  be  aUtionary  it  waa  not  to  be  auppoaed  he  could 
have  a  better  knowledge  of  characters.  He  will  be  more  open  to 
eareiaea  &  intrigues  than  the  Senate.  The  right  to  supersede  his 
nomination  will  be  ideal  only.  A  nomination  under  such  cireum- 
atances  will  be  equivalent  to  an  appointment. 

M!  Qovt  Morris  supported  the  motion.  1.^  The  States  in  their 
corporate  capacity  will  frequently  have  an  interest  staked  on  the 
determination  of  the  Judgea.  As  in  the  Senate  the  States  are  to  vote 
the  Judges  ought  not  to  be  appointed  by  the  Senate.  Next  to  the 
impropriety  of  being  Judge  in  one's  own  cause,  is  the  appointment 
of  the  Judge.  2.*  It  had  been  said  the  Executive  would  be  uninformed 
of  characters.  The  reverse  was  y?  truth.  The  Senate  will  be  so. 
They  must  take  the  character  of  candidates  from  the  flattering  pic- 
tures drawn  by  their  friends.  The  Executive  in  the  necessary  inter- 
course with  every  part  of  the  U.  S.  required  by  the  nature  of  his 
administration,  will  or  may  have  the  best  possible  information.  3.^ 
It  had  been  said  that  a  jealousy  would  be  entertained  of  the  Execu- 
tive. If  the  Executive  can  be  safely  trusted  with  the  command  of  the 
army,  there  cannot  surely  be  any  reasonable  ground  of  Jealousy  in 
the  present  case.  He  added  that  if  the  objections  ag!*  an  appoint- 
ment of  the  Executive  by  the  Legislature,  had  the  weight  that  had 
been  allowed  there  must  be  some  weight  in  the  objection  to  an 
appointment  of  the  Judges  by  the  Legislature  or  by  any  part  of  it. 

M!  Gerbt.  The  appointment  of  the  Judges  like  every  other 
part  of  the  Constitution  sbt  be  so  modelled  as  to  gire  satisfaction 
both  to  the  people  and  to  the  States.  The  mode  under  consideration 
will  give  satisfaction  to  neither.  He  could  not  conceive  that  the 
Executive  could  be  as  well  informed  of  characters  throughout  the 
Union,  as  the  Senate.  It  appeared  to  him  also  a  strong  objection 
that  %  of  the  Senate  were  required  to  reject  a  nomination  of  th*; 
Executive.  The  Senate  would  be  constituted  in  the  same  manner 
as  Congress.  And  the  appointments  of  Congress  have  been  gen- 
erally good. 

M'-  Madison,  observed  that  he  was  not  anxious  that  %  abovld  be 
necessary  to  disa^ee  to  a  nomination.    He  had  given  this  form  to 

'The  figures  "  1,"  "2"  and  "3"  are  changed  to  "FitBt,"  "  Secondly"  and 
"  Thirdly  "  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  HONDAT,  JULY  28,  1787  803 

hii  motion  chiefly  to  vary  it  the  mor«  clearly  from  one  which  had  jott 
been  rejected.  He  waa  content  to  obviate  the  objection  laat  made, 
and  accordini^  to  varied  the  motion  as  to  let  a  majority 
reject. 

Col.  Mason  foond  it  hia  duty  to  differ  from  hie  eolleagnei  in 
their  opiniona  A  reaaoninga  on  thia  rabjeet  Notwithatanding  the 
form  of  the  propoaition  by  which  the  appointment  seemed  to  be 
divided  between  the  Executive  &  Senate,  the  appointment  wai  rob- 
Btantially  vetted  in  the  former  alone.  The  false  complaisance  which 
usnally  prevaila  in  sneh  casea  will  prevent  a  diaagreement  to  the 
first  nominations.  He  conaidered  the  appointment  by  the  Executive 
as  a  dangerooa  prerogative.  It  might  even  give  him  an  inflaence  over 
the  Judic'^ry  department  itself.  He  did  not  think  the  difference  of 
interest  between  the  Northern  and  Southern  Statea  could  be  properly 
brought  into  thia  argument  It  would  operate  ft  require  aome  pre- 
cautions  in  tbo  case  of  regulating  navigation,  commerce  ft  impoata; 
bat  bo  could  not  aee  that  it  had  any  connection  with  the  Judiciary 
department 

On  the  question,  the  motion  now  being  ^  that  the  executive 
shotild  nominate,  ft  such  nominations  should  become  appointmenta 
unless  disagreed  to  by  the  Senate  " 

Mm.  ay.  O  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  no.  M"?  no.  V»  ay.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C. 
no.    Geo.  no.' 

On  *  question  for  agreeing  to  the  clause  aa  it  stands  by  which  the 
Judjjes  are  to  be  appointed  by  »  2^  branch 


S. 


Mas. 
C.  ay 


no. 


C!  ay.    Pf  no.    Del.  ay.    M*  ay.    V!  no.    N.  C.  ay. 


Geo.  ay.* 


Adjourned 


Monday.  July.  23.    m  CtoNVKNnoN. 

W.  John  Langdon  &  W-  Nicholas  Oilman  from  N.  Hampshire, 

took  their  seats. 


■  The  word*  "  now  being  "  are  tranipoied  to  read  "  being  now  "  in  the  tran- 
script.       "• 

=  In  the  tranerript  the  vote  read*:  "  Maaiacliuaetta,  Penngylvania,  Virfrinia, 
ave— 3;  Connecticut,  Delaware,  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  no— 8." 

■  The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

'In  the  tranicript  the  rote  reada:  "Connecticut,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
Koith  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— «;  MaaMchuaettt,  Pennsylvania, 
Virginia,  no — 3^  so  it  pasE«d  in  the  affirmative." 


304      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Reiol?:  17.'  that  proviiion  ought  to  be  nuul*  for  fatura  amead- 
menta  of  the  articlci  of  Union,'  ftipreed  to,  nem,  con. 

Reflol?  18.'  "  requiritig  the  Leg:ii:  Execut:  ft  Ju*  of  the  Statea 
to  be  bound  by  oath  to  support  the  articlea  of  Union,"'  taken  into 
conttideration. 

M5  WiLUAMSON  aninieeta  that  a  reciprocal  oath  ihonld  be  re- 
quired from  the  National  oflBcera,  to  rapport  the  OoTemmento  of 
the  SUtei. 

Mr  Qeut  moved  to  inaert  aa  an  amendm^  that  the  oath  of  the 
ofBcera  of  the  National  Government  alio  ihould  extend  to  the  rep- 
port  of  the  Nat!  Qov*.  which  was  agreed  to  >  "m.  con. 

Ml  WiLBON  said  he  waa  never  fond  of  he,  eonaidering  them  as 
a  left  handed  security  only.  A  good  Govi  did  not  need  them,  and  a 
bad  one  could  not  or  ought  not  to  be  rapported.  He  was  afraid 
they  might  too  much  trammel  the  members  of  the  Existing  Gov*-  in 
case  future  alterations  should  be  necessary ;  and  prove  an  obstacle  to 
Rcool:  17.'  just  ag*  to. 

Mr  Chorum  did  not  know  that  oaths  would  be  of  much  nae ;  but 
could  see  no  inconsistency  between  them  and  the  17.  Reaol:  or  any 
regular  amend?  of  the  Constitution.  The  oath  could  only  require 
fidelity  to  the  existing  Constitution.  A  coi  rtitutional  alteration  of 
the  Constitution,  could  never  be  regarded  as  a  breach  of  the  Con- 
stitution, or  of  L      oath  to  support  it. 

M:  Gebby  thought  with  VP  Ghorum  there  could  be  no  shadow  of 
inconsistency  in  the  case.  Nor  could  he  sec  any  other  harm  that 
could  result  from  the  Resolution.  On  the  other  side  he  thought  one 
good  effect  would  be  produced  by  it.  •»  therto  ihe^  oflBcers  of  the 
two  Governments  had  considered  them  as  distinct  from,*  not  as 
parts  of  the  General  System,  &  had  in  all  cases  of  interference  given 
a  preference  to  the  SUte  Gov«*.  The  proposed  oaths  will  cure  that 
error. 

The  Reaol?  [18 »]  was  agreed  to  nem.  con.— 
Resol:  19.*  referring  the  new  Constitution  to  Assemblies  to  be 
chosen  by  the  people  for  the  express  purpose  of  ratifying  it"  was 
next  taken  into  consideration. 

•The  words  "The  nventeenth   RMolution"  are  lubttituted  in  the  tr»n- 
script  for  "  Resol"  17."  .... 

•  The  word  "  wM "  it  here  Ineerted  in  the  truseript. 

•  The  words   •  The  eighteenth  Resolution "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript 
for  "  Resol"  18." 

•  The  word  "  and  "  is  here  inserted  m  the  transcript. 

•  The  words  "  the  eighteenth  "  are  sulmtitutcd  in  the  transcript  for     18. 

•  The  words  "  The  nineteenth  Resolution  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript 
for  "Kesoi:  IQ." 


UESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JULY  23,  1787 


806 


M*.  EuBWOBTH  moved  th«t  It  be  referred  to  the  LegWataret  of 
the  Statet  for  r»tUk»tkm.    Mr  Patwmon  2*:*  the  ojotion. 

Col.  Mason  contidered  »  reference  of  the  plan  to  the  tothority 
of  the  people  n  one  of  the  moet  important  and  eeeentiil  of  the  Re«>- 
lutioDfc    The  Legiduriiree  have  no  power  to  ratify  it.    They  are  the 
uiere  creaturee  of  the  State  Conrtltutiona,  and  can  not  be  greater 
than  their  creators    And  he  knew  of  no  power  in  any  of  the  Con- 
Ktif  itioni.  he  knew  there  waa  no  power  in  aomc  of  them,  that  could 
be  competent  to  thia  object.    Whither  then  lanit  we  reiortt    To  th« 
I)eople  with  whom  all  power  remain*  that  haa  not  been  given  up  in  the 
CoMtitutiona  derived  from  them.   It  waa  of  great  raoment  he  obwsrved 
that  thia  doctrine  ihould  be  cheriahed  aa  the  baaia  of  free  Govern- 
ment.   Another  rtrong  reaaon  wu  that  admitting  the  Lcgialaturea 
to  have  a  competent  authority,  it  would  be  wrong  to  refer  the  plan 
to  them,  becauae  lucceeding  LegiaUturea  having  equal  authority  could 
undo  the  acta  of  their  predeceawra;  and  the  National  QovJ  would 
stand  in  each  State  on  the  weak  and  tottering  foundation  of  an  Act 
of  Assembly.    There  waa  a  remaining  consideration  of  some  weight. 
In  some  of  the  Statea  the  Gov*  were  not  derived  from  the  clear  & 
undisputed  authority  of  the  people.    Thia  waa  the  case  in  Virginia 
Some  of  the  beet  &  wiaeat  citiaena  conaidcred  the  Constitution  aa 
established  by  an  assumed  autLority.    A  National  Constitution  de- 
rived from  auch  a  source  would  be  expoeed  to  the  severest  criticiama. 
M'.  Randolph.    One  idea  haa  pervaded  all  our  proceedinga,  to 
wit,  that  opposition  aa  weU  from  the  States  aa  from  indiviaoala,  wiU 
be  made  to  the  System  to  be  proposed.    Will  it  not  then  be  highly 
imprudent,  to  furnish  any  unnecesaary  pretext  by  the  mode  of 
ratifying  it.    Added  to  other  objectiona  agf  a  ratification  by  Legia- 
lative  authority  only,  it  may  b"  remarked  that  there  have  been 
instances  in  which  the  authority  of  the  Common  law  haa  been  set  up 
in  particular  States  ag?*  that  of  the  Confederation  which  haa  had 
no  higher  sanction  than  Legislative  ratification.— Whose  opposition 
wiU  be  most  Ukely  to  be  excited  a^  the  System !    That  of  the  local 
demagogues  who  will  be  degraded  by  it  from  the  importance  they 
uow  hold.    These  will  spare  iw  efiforta  to  impede  that  progress  in  the 
popular  mind  which  will  be  necessary  to  the  adoption  of  the  plan, 
and  which  every  member  will  find  to  have  taken  place  in  hia  own, 
if  he  wiU  compare  his  present  opiniona  with  thoee  brought  with 
him  into  the  Convention.    It  ia  of  great  importance  therefore  that 
the  consideration  of  this  subject  ahoold  be  transferred  from  the 
Legislatures  where  this  class  of  men,  have  their  full  influence  to  a 
field  in  which  their  efforts  can  be  leaa  mischeivous.    It  ia  moreover 


306      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

worthy  of  consideration  that  some  of  the  States  are  averse  to  any 
change  in  their  Constitution,  and  will  not  take  the  requisite  steps, 
unless  expressly  called  upon  to  refer  the  question  to  the  people. 

M5  Gerrt.  The  arguments  of  Col.  Mason  &  Mi  Randolph  prove 
too  much,  they  prove  an  unconstitutionality  in  the  present  federal 
system  even  in  some  of  the  State  Gov"!  Inferences  drawn  from 
such  a  source  must  be  inadmissible.  Both  the  State  GovH  &  the 
federal  Gov.'  have  been  too  long  acquiesced  in,  to  be  now  shaken. 
He  considered  the  Confederation  to  be  paramount  to  any  State  Con- 
stitution. The  last  article  of  it  authorizing  alterations  must  conse- 
quently be  so  as  well  as  the  others,  and  every  thing  done  Ju  pur- 
suance of  the  article  must  have  the  same  high  authority  with  the 
article.— Great  confusion  he  was  confident  would  result  from  a  re- 
currence to  the  people.  They  would  never  agree  on  any  thing.  He 
could  not  see  any  ground  to  suppose  that  the  people  will  do  what 
their  rulers  will  not.  The  rulers  will  either  conform  to,  or  influence 
the  sense  of  the  people. 

W.  Ghorum  was  ag^*  referring  the  plan  to  the  Legislatures. 

1.  Men  chosen  by  the  people  for  the  particular  purpose,  will  dis- 
cuss the  subject  more  candidly  than  members  of  the  Legislature  who 
are  to  lose  the  power  which  is  to  be  given  up  to  the  Gen?  GovS 

2.  Some  of  the  Legislatures  are  composed  of  several  branches.  It 
will  consequently  be  more  difficult  in  these  cases  to  get  the  plan 
through  the  Legislatures,  than  thro'  a  Convention.  3.  in  the  States 
many  of  the  ablest  men  are  excluded  from  the  Lej^atures,  but 
may  be  elected  into  a  Convention.  Among  these  may  be  ranked  many 
of  the  Clergy  who  are  generally  friends  to  good  (Jovemment.  Their 
services  were  found  to  be  valuable  in  the  formation  &  establishment 
of  the  Constitution  of  Massach*!  4.  the  Legislatures  will  be  inter- 
rupted with  a  variety  of  little  business,  by  artfully  pressing  which, 
designing  men  will  find  means  to  delay  from  year  to  year,  if  not 
to  frustrate  altogether,  the  national  system.  5.  If  the  last  art:  of 
the  Confederation  is  to  be  pursued  the  unanimous  concurrence  of  the 
States  will  be  necessary.  But  will  any  one  say,  that  all  the  States 
are  to  suffer  themselves  to  be  ruined,  if  Rho.  Island  should  persist 
in  her  opposition  to  general  measures.  Some  other  States  might 
also  tread  in  her  steps.  The  present  advantage  which  N.  York  seems 
to  be  so  much  attached  to,  of  taxing  her  neighbours  by  the  regula- 
tion ^f  her  trade,  makes  it  very  probable,  that  she  will  be  of  the 
number  It  would  therefore  deserve  serious  consideration  whether 
provision  ought  not  to  be  made  for  giving  effect  to  the  System  without 
waiting  for  the  unanimous  concurrence  of  the  States. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  JULY  23,  1787 


307 


HP  Elsewobth.  If  there  be  any  Legislatures  who  should  find 
themselves  incompetent  to  the  ratification,  he  should  be  content  to 
let  them  advise  with  their  constituents  and  pursue  such  a  mode  as 
w^  be  competent.  He  thought  more  was  to  be  expected  from  the 
Leffislatures  than  from  the  people.  The  prevailing  wish  of  the  people 
in  the  Eastern  "t»tes  is  to  get  rid  of  the  public  debt ;  and  the  idea  of 
Btrengtheii-  (<  th?  Sar!  Govt  carries  with  it  that  of  strengthening  the 
public  de' ' .  It  was  saiJ  y  Col.  Mason  1.*  that  the  Legislatures 
have  no  a  fio  •ty  in  tbis  .'se.  2.'  that  their  successors  having  equal 
authority  xu  a  reaiind  t  At  acts.  As  to  the  21  point  he  could  not 
admit  it  to  be  weii  founded.  An  Act  to  which  the  States  by  their 
Legislatures,  make  themselves  parties,  becomes  a  compact  from  which 
no  one  of  the  parties  can  recede  of  itself.  As  to  the  1?*  point,  he 
observed  that  a  new  sett  of  ideas  seemed  to  have  crept  in  since  the 
articles  of  Confederation  were  established.  Conventions  of  the  people, 
or  with  power  derived  expressly  from  the  people,  were  not  then 
thought  of.  The  Legislatures  were  considered  as  competent.  Their 
ratification  has  been  acquiesced  in  vrithout  complaint.  To  whom  have 
Cong!  applied  on  subsequent  occasions  for  further  powerst  To  the 
Legislatures ;  not  to  the  people.  The  fact  is  that  we  exist  at  present, 
and  we  need  not  enquire  how,  as  a  federal  Society,  united  by  a  char- 
ter one  article  of  which  is  that  alterations  therein  may  be  made  by 
the  Legislative  authority  of  the  States.  It  has  been  said  that  if 
the  confederation  is  to  be  observed,  the  States  must  unammoiuly 
concur  in  the  proposed  innovations.  He  would  answer  that  if  such 
were  the  urgency  &  necessity  of  our  situation  as  to  warrant  a  new 
compact  among  a  part  of  the  States,  founded  on  the  consent  of  the 
people ;  the  same  pleas  would  be  equally  valid  in  favor  of  a  partial 
compact,  founded  on  the  consent  of  the  Legislatures. 

M!  Williamson  thought  the  Besol?:  [19 »]  so  expressed  as  that  it 
might  be  submitted  either  to  the  Legislatures  or  to  Conventions 
recommended  by  the  Legislatures.  He  observed  that  some  Legisla- 
tures were  evidently  unauthorized  to  ratify  the  system.  He  thought 
too  that  Conventions  were  to  be  preferred  as  more  likely  to  be  com- 
posed of  the  ablest  men  in  the  States. 

Mt  (Jov?  Morris  considered  the  inference  of  Mr  Elseworth  from  the 
plea  of  necessity  as  applied  to  the  establishment  of  a  new  System  on 
y*  consent  of  the  people  of  a  part  of  the  States,  in  favor  of  a  like 
establishn?  on  the  consent  of  a  part  of  the  Legislatures  as  a  non 


'  The  flpire  "  1  "  is  changed  to  "  in  the  tint  place  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  flifure  "  2  "  is  changed  to  "  and  in  the  second  "  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  words  "  the  nineteenth  "  are  substituted  in  the  tranwiript  lor  "  IS." 


308      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

sequitur.  If  the  Confederation  is  to  be  pursued  no  alteration  can  be 
made  without  the  unanimous  consent  of  the  Legislatures :  Legislative 
alterations  not  conformable  to  the  federal  compact,  would  clearly  not 
be  valid.  The  Judges  would  consider  them  as  null  &  void.  Whereas 
in  case  of  an  appeal  to  the  people  of  the  U.  S.,  the  supreme  authority, 
the  federal  compact  may  be  altered  by  a  majority  of  them;  in  like 
manner  as  the  Constitution  of  a  particular  State  may  be  al  ored  by  a 
majority  of  the  people  of  the  State.  The  amendml  moved  by  M:  Else- 
worth  erroneously  supposes  that  we  are  proceeding  on  the  basis  of 
the  Confederation.    This  Convention  is  unlmown  to  the  Confederation. 

M'.  Kma  thought  with  Mt  Elseworth  that  the  Legislatures  had  a 
competent  authority,  the  acquiescence  of  the  people  of  America  in 
the  Confederation,  being  equivalent  to  a  formal  ratification  by  the 
people.  He  thought  with  iK  E—  also  that  the  plea  of  necessity  was 
as  valid  in  the  one  case  as  in  *  the  other.  At  the  same  time  he  pre- 
ferred a  reference  to  the  authority  of  the  people  expressly  delegated 
to  Conventions,  as  the  most  certain  means  of  obviating  all  disputes 
&  doubts  concerning  the  legitimacy  of  the  new  Constitution;  as  well 
as  the  most  likely  means  of  drawing  forth  the  best  men  in  the  States 
to  decide  on  it.  He  remarked  that  among  other  objections  made  in 
the  State  of  N.  York  to  granting  powers  to  Congf  one  had  been  that 
such  powers  as  would  operate  within  the  State,'  could  not  be  recon- 
ciled to  the  Constitution;  and  therefore  were  not  grantible  by  the 
Legislative  authority.  He  considered  it  as  of  some  consequence  also  to 
get  rid  of  the  scruples  which  some  members  of  the  State  Legislatures 
might  derive  frjm  their  oaths  to  support  &  maintain  the  uTigting 
Constitutions. 

Mr  Madison  thought  it  clear  that  the  Legislatures  were  incom- 
petent to  the  proposed  changes.  These  changes  would  make  essential 
inroads  on  the  State  Constitutions,  and  it  would  be  a  novel  &  danger- 
ous doctrine  that  a  Legislature  could  change  the  constitution  under 
which  it  held  its  existence.  There  might  indeed  be  some  Constitu- 
tions within  the  Union,  which  had  given  a  power  to  the  Legislature  to 
concur  in  alterations  of  the  federal  Compact.  But  there  were  cer- 
tainly some  which  had  not;  and  in  the  case  of  these,  a  ratification 
must  of  necessity  be  obtained  from  the  people.  He  considered  the 
difference  between  a  system  founded  on  the  Legislatures  only,  and 
one  founded  on  the  people,  to  be  the  true  difference  between  a  league 
or  treaty,  and  a  Constitution.  The  former  in  point  of  moral  ohligor 
tion  might  be  as  inviolable  as  the  latter.    In  point  of  political  opera- 


•  The  word  "  in  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  trs&icript  uaes  the  word  "  State  "  in  the  plural. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  JULY  23,  1787 


309 


iion,  there  were  two  important  distinctions  in  favor  of  the  latter.    1. 
A  law  violating  a  treaty  ratified  by  a  pre-exi-rting  law,  might  be 
re^  ccted  by  the  Judges  as  a  law,  though  an  nnwise  or  perfidious  one. 
A  iaw  violating  a  constitution  established  by  the  people  themselves, 
would  be  considered  by  the  Judges  as  null  &  void.    2.^  The  doctrine 
laid  down  by  the  law  of  Nations  in  the  case  of  treaties  is  that  a 
breach  of  any  one  article  by  any  of  the  parties,  frees  the  other 
parties  from  their  engagements.    In  the  case  of  a  union  of  people 
under  one  Constitution,  the  nature  of  the  pact  has  always  been  under- 
stood to  exclude  such  an  interpretation.    Comparing  the  two  modes 
in  point  of  expediency  he  thought  all  the  considerations  which  recom- 
mended  this  Convention  in  preference  to  Congress  for  proposing  the 
reform  were  in  favor  of  State  Conventions  in  preference  to  the 
Legislatures  for  examining  and  adopting  it. 

On»  question  on  M^  Elseworth's  motion  to  refer  the  plan  to  the 
Legislatures  of  the  States 

N.H.no.    Mas.no.    CJ  ay.  no.»    P?  no.    Del.  ay.    Ml  ay.    V.  no. 

N  C  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.*  ,       ,      .  j    4^ 

■  W.  Gov'.  Morris  moved  that  the  reference  of  the  plan  be  made  to 
one  general  Convention,  chosen  &  authorized  by  the  people  to  cor- 
fiider  amend,  &  establish  the  same.— Not  seconded. 

On"  quVslion  for  agreeing  to  Resolution  19.'  touching  the  mode  of 
Ratification  as  reported  from  the  Committee  of  the  Whole;  viz,  to 
X  the  Const?  Ster  the  approbation  of  Cong!  to  assemblies  chosen 

''  tTtu^.  ay.  a  ay.  P.  ay.  Del.  no.  W  ay.  V.  a.    N.  C.  ay. 

■  ih  Govr  M0RRIS&  M:  Kino  moved  that  the  representation  in  the 
second  branch  consist  of  members  from  each  St-e,  who  shall 

vote  per  capita.  .       .     ... 

W.  ELSEWORTH  said  he  had  always  approved  of  voting  in  that 

mode. 


'lb,-  Bgu™.  -1"  Md  "2-  .r.  .l».g»l  to  "'!■«"  "«  -B«»iiill,"  U 
'''"^'^^X^otlt'^t^.'^Tn^r^^lr^iio.''  are  .ub.tU«ted  .n  the  tran«ript 

'"".^rthft^iSc^pt  the  vote  reu.: !' }^-\^:i^^''^:!u^'^T'^:iof^ 

necticut.  Penaiylvania,   Maryland.  Virginm,   North   Carolina,   South  Carolina. 
Georgia,  aye— 9j  Delaware,  no— 1." 


310      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Ml  Govt  MoBEis  moved  to  fill  the  blank  '■  with  three.  He  wished 
the  Senate  to  be  a  pretty  numerous  body.  If  >  members  only 
should  be  allowed  to  each  State,  and  a  majorit.  made  a  quorum, 
the  power  would  be  lodged  in  14  members,  wl..i;h  was  too  small  a 
number  for  such  a  trust. 

M'.  Ghobum  preferred  two  to  three  members  for  the  blank.  A 
small  number  was  most  convenient  for  deciding  on  peace  &  war  &c. 
which  he  expected  would  be  vested  in  the  21  branch.  The  number 
of  States  will  also  increase.  Kentucky,  Vermont,  the  Province  of 
Mayne  &  Franklin  will  probably  soon  be  added  to  the  present  num- 
ber. He  presumed  also  that  some  of  the  largest  States  would  be 
divided.  The  strenghth  of  the  General  Gov?  will  lie  not  in  the  large- 
ness, but  in  the  smallness  of  the  States. 

Col.  JIasox  thought  3  from  each  State  including  new  States 
would  make  the  2?  branch  too  numerous.  Besides  other  objections, 
the  additional  expence  ought  always  to  form  one,  where  it  was  not 
absolutelj-  necessary: 

IK  WiLUAMSON.  If  the  number  be  too  great,  the  distant  States 
will  not  be  on  an  equal  footing  with  the  nearer  States.  The  latter 
can  more  easily  send  &  support  their  ablest  Citizens.  He  approved 
of  the  voting  per  capita. 

On  the  question  for  filling  the  blank  with  "  three  " 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  Coni  no.  P!  ay.  Del.  no.  Vr  no.  N.  C.  no. 
S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no." 

On '  question  for  filling  it  with  "  two."    Agreed  to  nem.  con. 

IP  L  Maetin  was  opposed  to  voting  per  Capita,  as  departing 
from  the  idea  of  the  States  being  represented  in  the  21  branch. 

in  Carrol,  was  not  struck  with  any  particular  objection  agl*  the 
mode;  but  he  did  not  wish  so  hastily  to  make  so  material  an 
innovation. 

On  the  question  on  the  whole  motion  viz.  the  21  b.  to  consist  of 
2  members  from  each  State  and  to  vote  per  capita." 


Mas.  ay.    C5  ay.    P!  ay.    Del.  ay.    Ml  no.    V»  ay. 


N.  H.  ay 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.« 

Mr  Houston  &  Ms  Spaight  moved  "  that  the  appointment  of  the 
Executive  by  Electors  chosen  by  the  Legislatures  of  the  States,  be  re- 

•  The  transcript  does  not  italicize  the  word  "  blank." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  read*:  "Pennsylvania,  aye— 1;  New  Hamp- 
ehire,  Jlassachusetts,  Connecticut,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 8." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Con- 
nect icut,  Pennsylvnniii.  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aje — 9;  Maryland,  no — 1." 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  JULY  24,  1787 


311 


considered."  M?  Hourton  urged  the  extreme  inconveniency  4  the 
n  iderable  expenee.  of  drawing  together  men  from  aU  the  State. 
for  the  single  purpose  of  electing  the  Chief  Mag«trate. 

On  the  aueation  which  was  put  without  any    debate. 

S  H  ani".  ay.  e  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  M-  no.  Yvcff.  no. 
N  C  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Ordered  that  tomorrow  be  assigned  for  the  reconsideration. 

Con^  &  Pen!  no— all  the  rest  ay.  ..      ^     *i. 

M'  Qerby  moved  that  the  proceedings  of  the  Convention  for  the 
estaWishrnt  of  a  Nat!  GovJ  (except  the  part  relating  to  the  Execu- 
JiS  be  referred  to  a  Committee  to  prepare  &  report  a  Constitution 

'"S"pmK'.^r«minded  the  Convention  that  if  the  Committee 
shodd  faTto'lrt  some  security  to  the  Southern  States  ag-^  an 
mancipation  of  slaves,  and  taxes  on  exports,  he  sM  be  bound  by 
dutTto  his  State  to  vote  ag?  their  Report-  The  app^  of  a  Com, 
f«  moved  by  W-  Gerry.'    Ag^  to  nem.  con. 

^Shdl  L  Comfconsist  of  10  members  one  from  each  State  prerft 
AU  the  States  were  no,  except  Delaware  ay. 

Shall  it  consist  of  7.  members.  tm      -     w  «  V»  no 

\  H   ay.    Mas.  ay.    CJ  ay.    P?  no.    Del.  no.    MS  ay.  V?  no. 

N.  C.'  no."   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.»    The  question  being  lost  by  an  equal 

''TJ^S  nem.  con-  that  the  Comttee*  consist  of  5  mem- 

bers,  to  be  appointed  tomorrow. 

Adjourned 


TtnaOAT  Jt3T.T  24.     IN    CONVEimON 

The  appointment  of  the  Executive  by  Electors  ^reconsidered. 
IP  Houston  moved  that  he  be  appointed  by  the  "  Nat?  Leg* 
lature,"  ^tead  of  "  Electors  appointed  by  the  State  Legislatures 

•The  word  "any"  »  °'»|"*<li^*!'^.*^''H«mp8hlre.  M..«chuMtt..  Con- 
•In  the  transcript  the  vote  read* .  ..^•p  ",5^    (w,r<Ha.  aye— 7j   Penn- 
necMcnt,  Delaware,  North  Carolina,^  South  Carolina,  Worgia,  ay 

Bvlvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  i>0--3-      .  ._  ..     ♦mn.erint 
.ect;eiUurK"l.^utrcr.iray-irP»vanU.  Delaware.  Virgin-. 
'  The  word  "being"  ia  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


312      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

according  to  the  last  decision  of  the  mode.  He  dwelt  chiefly  on 
the  improbability,  that  capable  men  would  undertake  the  service 
of  Electors  from  the  more  distant  States. 

Mr  Spaioht  seconded  the  motion. 

M!  Gerby  opposed  it.  He  thought  there  was  no  ground  to 
apprehend  the  danger  urged  by  M'  Houston.  The  election  of  the 
Executive  Magistrate  will  be  considered  as  of  vast  importance  and 
will  excite  ^  great  earnestness.  The  best  men,  the  Govemours  of  the 
States  will  not  hold  it  derogatory  from  their  character  to  be  the 
electors.  If  the  motion  should  be  agreed  to,  it  will  be  necessary  to 
make  the  Executive  ineligible  a  21  time,  in  order  to  render  him  in- 
dependent of  the  Legislature;  which  was  an  idea  extremely  repug- 
nant to  his  way  of  thinking. 

&n  Strono  supposed  that  there  would  be  no  necessity,  if  the 
Excutive  should  be  appointed  by  the  Legislature,  to  make  him 
ineligible  a  2^  time;  as  new  elections  of  the  Legislature  will  have 
intervened;  and  he  will  not  depend  for  his  21  appointment  on  the 
same  sett  of  men  as '  his  first  was  reel  from.  It  had  been  suggested 
that  gratitude  for  his  past  appointment  w1  produce  the  same  effect 
as  dependence  for  his  future  appointment.  He  thought  very  differ- 
ently. Besides  this  objection  would  lie  ag!*  the  Electors  who  would  be 
objects  of  gratitude  as  well  as  the  Legislature.  It  was  of  great  im- 
portance not  to  make  the  Gov.*  too  complex  which  would  be  the  case 
if  a  new  sett  of  men  like  the  Electors  should  be  introduced  into  it. 
He  thought  also  that  the  first  characteis  in  the  States  would  not 
feel  sufficient  motives  to  undertake  the  office  of  Electors. 

M^  WiLUAMsoN  was  for  going  back  to  the  original  ground;  to 
elect  the  Executive  for  7  years  and  render  him  ineligible  a  21  time. 
The  proposed  Electors  would  certainly  not  be  men  of  the  1'.*  nor 
even  of  the  21  grade  in  the  States.  These  would  all  prefer  a  seat 
either '  in  the  Senate  or  the  other  branch  of  the  Legislature.  He  did 
not  like  the  Unity  in  the  Executive.  He  had  wished  the  Executive 
power  to  be  lodged  in  three  men  taken  from  three  districts  into 
which  the  States  should  be  divided.  As  the  Executive  is  to  have  a 
kind  of  veto  on  the  laws,  and  there  is  an  essential  difference  of 
interests  between  the  N.  &  S.  States,  particularly  in  the  carrying 
trade,  the  power  will  be  dangerous,  if  the  Executive  is  to  be  taken 
from  part  of  the  Union,  to  the  part  from  which  he  is  not  taken.  The 
case  is  different  here  from  what  it  is  in  England;  where  there  is  a 


'  The  word  "  create  "  is  substituted  in  t.  3  transcript  for  "  excite." 
'  The  word  "  that "  is  substitutet!  is  the  transcript  for  "  »s." 
'  The  word  "  either  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  JULY  24,  1787 


313 


wmeness  of  interert.  throughout  the  Kingdom.  Another  objection 
L  a  single  Magirtrate  is  that  he  wiU  be  an  elective  Kmg,  and  wUl 
ffel  the  spirit  of  one.  He  will  n)are  no  pains  to  keep  himwlf  in  for 
life  and  will  then  lay  a  train  for  the  succession  of  hu  chUdren.  It 
was'  pretty  certain  he  thought  that  we  should  at  some  time  or  other 
have  a  King:  but  he  wished  no  precaution  to  be  omitted  that  might 
postpone  the  event  as  long  as  po«nble.-IneligibiUty  a  2?  time  ap- 
peared to  him  to  be  the  best  precaution.  With  this  precaution  he  had 
no  obiection  to  a  longer  term  than  7  years.   He  would  go  a.  far  as  10 

"  M^'St  moved  that  the  Legislatures  of  the  States  should  vrte 
hv  ballot  for  the  Executive  in  the  same  proportions  as  it  had  been 
proposed  they  should  chuse  electors;  and  that  ^^  «"«  »  ^''^ 
of  the  votes  should  not  center  on  the  same  person,  the  1?  branch  of 
the  Nat!  LegisUture  should  chuse  two  out  of  tae  4  c«idi  Jtes  having 
most  votes,^  out  of  these  two,  the  21  brwich  should  chuse  the 

^T* K^G  seconded  the  motion-HUid  on  the  Question  to  postpone 
in  order  to  take  it  into  consideration.   The  noes  were  so  predominant, 

^n  t^'^^rrH^l^'?  mttion  that  the  Executive  be  appi  by  • 

"^'n^rTm-i.  .y.  a  no.  N.  J.  ay.  K  no.  Del.  ay.  Ml  no. 

V  no.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.«  

*  MI  L.  MABim  4  W.  Gebby  moved  to  re-instate  the  ineligibility  of 

the  Executive  a  2i  time.  „„.^„««« 

MI  ELBEWOirrH.  With  many  this  appears  a  natural  consequ^ce 
of  his  being  elected  by  the  Legislature.  It  w.«  not  the  case  with  him 
The  Executive  he  thought  should  be  reelected  if  his  condurt  pwv^^ 
him  worthy  of  it.  And  he  wiU  be  more  liiely  to  render  lurwelf , 
worthy  of  it  if  he  be  rewardable  with  it  The  most  eminent  char- 
Tters  also  will  be  more  wiUing  to  accept  tiie  trust  «-<ie^  t^J- 
dition,  than  if  they  foresee  a  ner=-sary  degradation  at  » /j^  P«"^ 
M'  Gebby  That  the  Executive  shl  be  independent  of  the  Legis- 
lature is  a  clear  point.  The  longer  the  duration  »' f^'^PP^^^^.^^^ 
the  more  wUl  his  dependence  be  diminished.  It  ^»ll^b«  ^^^^^  ^f^."; 
for  him  to  continue  10.  15,  or  even  20.  years  and  be  ineligible 

afterwards.  ^ ^ 

•  The  wonU  "  On  the  »  «.  h^wj"?^  »»  }^Ji^^^^^' 

PcnE^jlvania.  Maryland,  Virginia,  no— 4. 


314      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

M!  Kino  was  for  makmg  him  re-eligible.  Thi«  ii  too  great  an 
advantage  to  be  given  up  for  the  small  effect  it  will  have  on  hit 
dependence,  if  impeachments  are  to  lie.  He  considered  these  as 
rendering  the  tenure  dnring  pleasure. 

Mr  L.  Martin,  suspending  his  motion  as  to  the  ineligibility, 
moved  "  that  the  appointmJ  of  the  Executive  shaU  contii  le  for 
Eleven  years. 

Mt  Oerrt  suggested  fifteen  years 

Mr  Kino  twenty  years.    This  is  the  medium  life  of  princes.* 

Mr  Davie  Eight  years 

if.  Wilson.    The  difficulties  &  perplexities  into  which  the  House 
is  thrown  proceed  from  the  election  by  the  Legislature  which  he  was 
sorry  had  been  reinstated.    The  inconveniency '  of  this  mode  was  such 
that  he  would  agree  to  almost  any  length  of  time  in  order  to  get  rid 
of  the  dependence  which  must  result  from  it.    He  was  persuaded  that 
the  longest  term  would  not  be  equivalent  to  a  proper  mode  of  election; 
unless  indeed  it  should  be  during  good  behaviour.    It  seemed  to  be 
supposed  that  at  a  certain  advance  of  life,  a  continuance  in  office  would 
cease  to  be  agreeable  to  the  officer,  as  well  as  desireable  to  the  public. 
Experience  had  shewn  in  a  variety  of  instances  that  both  a  capacity 
&  inclination  for  public  service  existed— in  very  advanced  stages.    He 
mentioned  the  instance  of  a  Doge  of  Venice  who  was  elected  after 
he  was  80  years  of  age.    The  popes  have  generally  been  elected  at 
very  advanced  periods,  and  yet  in  no  case  had  a  more  steady  or  a 
better  concerted  policy  been  pursued  than  in  the  Court  of  Rome.    If 
the  Executive  should  come  into  office  at  35.  years  of  age,  which  he 
presumes  may  happen  &  his  continuance  should  be  flxt  at  15  years, 
at  the  age  of  50.  in  the  very  prime  of  life,  and  with  all  the  aid  of 
experience,  he  must  be  cast  aside  like  a  useless  hulk.     What  an 
irreparable  loss  would  the  British  Jurisprudence  have  sustained,  had 
the  age  of  50.  been  fixt  there  as  the  ultimate  limit  of  capacity  or 
readiness  to  serve  the  public.    The  great  luminary  [U  Mansfield] 
held  his  seat  for  thirty  years  after  his  arrival  at  that  age.    Not- 
withstanding what  had  been  done  he  could  not  but  hope  that  a  better 
mode  of  election  would  yet  be  adopted ;  and  one  that  would  be  more 
agreeable  to  the  general  sense  of  the  House.    That  time  might  be 

•Thig  might  possibly  be  meant  u  a  c»rrjcatuie  of  the  preTious  motioni  in 
order  to  defeat  the  object  o'  them.  "-•  •- 

*  Transfer  hither.' 


script 


1  Madison's  direction  concerning  the  footnote  is  omitted  in  the  transcript 
The  word  "inconveniency"  ia  changed  to  "inconvenience"  in  the  tran- 

'v. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  JULY  24,  1787 


815 


Riven  for  further  deliberation  be  w*.  move  that  the  present  quertion 
be  postponed  till  tomorrow. 

W  Broom  leconded  the  motim  to  poatpone. 
m  Gerbv.  We  seem  to  be  entirely  it  a  loaa  on  thia  head.  He 
would  suggest  whether  it  would  not  be  adviaeable  to  refer  the  clauae 
relating  to  the  Executive  to  the  Committee  of  detail  to  be  appointed. 
Perhaps  they  wiU  be  able  to  hit  on  something  that  may  unite  the 
various  opinions  which  have  been  thrown  out. 

M!  Wn^N.  As  the  great  difficulty  seems  to  spring  from  the 
mode  of  election,  he  V?  suggest  a  mode  which  had  not  been  men- 
tioned It  was  that  the  Executive  be  elected  for  6  years  by  a  small 
number,  not  more  than  15  of  the  Nat'  Legislature,  to  be  drawn  from 
it  not  by  baUot,  but  by  lot  and  who  should  retire  immediately  and 
make  the  election  without  separating.  By  this  mode  intrigue  would 
be  avoided  in  the  first  instance,  and  the  dependence  would  be 
diminished.  This  was  not  he  said  a  digested  idea  and  might  be 
liable  to  strong  objections.  ^  ^v  *  u 

M'  Gov'.  MoBBiB.    Of  all  possible  modes  of  appointment  that  by 
the  Legislature  is  the  worst    If  the  Legislature  is  to  appoint  and 
to  impeach  or  to  influence  the  impeachment,  the  Executive  will  be 
the  mere  creature  of  it    He  had  been  opposed  to  the  impeachment 
but  was  now  convinced  that  impeachments  must  be  provided  for, 
if  the  appi  was  to  be  of  any  duration.    No  man  w«  say,  that  an 
Executive  known  tc  be  in  the  pay  of  an  Enemy,  should  not  be 
removeable  in  some  way  or  other.   He  had  been  charged  heretofore  [by 
Col.  Mason]  with  inconsistency  in  pleading  for  confidence  in  tte 
Legislature  on  some  occasions,  &  urging  a  distrust  on  others.    The 
charge  was  not  well  founded.    The  Legislature  is  worthy  of  un- 
bounded confidence  in  some  respects,  and  liable  to  equal  distrust  m 
others     When  their  interest  coincides  precisely  with  that  of  th«p 
Constituents,  as  happens  in  many  of  their  Acts,  no  abuse  of  trust 
is  to  be    nprehended.    When  a  strong  personal  interest  happens  to 
be  opposed  to  the  general  interest,  the  Legislature  can  not  be  too  much 
distrusted.    In  all  public  bodies  there  are  two  parties.    The  Executive 
will  necessarUy  be  more  connected  with  one  than  with  the  othw. 
There  will  be  a  personal  interest  therefore  in  one  of  the  parties  to 
oppose  as  well  as  in  the  other  to  support  him.    Much  had  been  said 
of  the  intrigues  that  wiU  be  practised  by  the  Executive  to  get  into 
office.    Nothing  had  been  said  on  the  other  side  of  the  intrigues  to 
get  him  out  of  office.    Some  leader  of  ^  party  will  always  covet  his 


•  The  word  "  a  "  is  here  inserted  In  the  trmnicript. 


816      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

•eat,  will  perplex  hig  admlnirtration,  wUl  cabal  with  the  Legialatnre, 
till  he  lucceeda  in  iupplanting  him.    This  waa  the  way  in  which  the 
King  of  England  waa  got  out,  he  meant  the  real  King,  the  Miniiter. 
This  was  the  way  in  which  Pitt  [L^  Chatham]  forced  himself  into 
place.    Pox  waa  for  pushing  the  matter  still  farther.    If  he  had  car- 
ried  his  India  bill,  which  he  was  very  near  doing,  he  would  hart 
made  the  Minister,  the  King  in  form  almost  as  well  as  in  substance. 
Our  President  will  be  the  British  Minister,  yet  we  are  about  to 
make  him  appointable  by  the  Legislature.     Something  had  been 
said  of  the  danger  of  Mr  larchy.    If  a  good  government  should  not 
now  be  formed,  if  a  good  organisation  of  the  Execuve  should  not 
be  provided,  he  doubted  whether  we  should  not  have  something  worse 
than  a  limited  Monarchy.    In  order  to  get  rid  of  the  dependence  of 
the  Executive  on  the  Legislature,  the  expedient  of  making  him  in- 
eligible a  2?  time  had  been  devised.    This  was  as  much  as  to  say  we 
shI  give  him  the  benefit  of  experience,  and  then  deprive  ourselves 
of  the  use  of  it.    But  make  him  ineligible  a  21  time— and  prolong 
his  duration  even  to  15-  years,  will  he  by  any  wonderful  interposi- 
tion of  providence  at  that  period  cease  to  be  a  man!    No  he  will 
be  unwilling  to  quit  hia  exaltation,  the  road  to  his  object  thro'  the 
Constitution  will  be  shut;  he  will  be  in  possession  of  the  sword,  a 
civil  war  will  ensue,  and  the  Commander  of  the  victorious  army  on 
which  ever  side,  will  be  the  despot  of  America.    This  consideration 
readers  him  particularly  anxious  that  the  Executive  should  be  prop- 
eriy  constituted.    The  vice  here  would  not,  as  in  some  other  parts  of 
the  system  be  curable.    It  is  the  most  difficult  of  all  rightly  to  balance 
the  Executive.    Make  him  too  weak:  The  Legislature  will  usurp  his 
powers:    Make  him  too  strong.    He  wiU  usurp  on  the  Legislature. 
Ho  preferred  a  short  period,  a  re-eligibility,  but  a  different  mode 
of  election.    A  long  period  would  prevent  an  adoption  of  the  plan: 
it  ought  to  do  so.    He  shI  himself  be  afraid  to  trust  it.    He  waa  not 
prepared  to  decide  on  Mr  Wilson's  mode  of  election  jurt  hinted  by 
him.    He  thought  it  deserved  consideration    It  would  be  better  that 
chance  s?  decide  than  intrigue. 

On  a '  question  to  postpone  the  consideration  of  the  Resolution  on 
the  subject  of  the  Executive 

N.  H.  no.  Mas,  no.  a*  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P«  ay.  Del.  divl   M<  aj. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 


'The  word  "the"  ii  rabstltuted  in  the  truicript  for  "a" 
Vir,nnU   . "J!!°"v'P*  «'"  '"i?  '•*^'  "Connecticut,  Pennsylvania.  Maryland. 
SouTh  Cir^^beor^a"^!'"'  ^'^•'"•*"'-  ^ew  Jersey,  North  Carolina. 


SESSION  or  TUESDAY,  JULY  24,  1787 


317 


M'.  WiMON  then   moved   that  the  Executive  he   oho«en  eTery 
years  by  Electon  to  be  taken  by  lot  from  the  Nat' 

Lffrislature  who  shall   proceed   immediately  to  the   choice  of  the 
Executive  and  not  separate  until  it  be  made." 

MT  Carrol  21*  the  motion 

Sr.  Gerry,  this  is  committing  too  much  to  chance.  If  th«  lot 
should  fall  on  a  sett  of  unworthy  men,  an  un«'rthy  Executi.e  most 
Im>  saddled  on  the  Country.  He  thought  it  had  been  demonstrated 
that  00  possible  mode  of  electing  by  the  Legislature  could  be  a  good 
one. 

jr  Ki.vo.  The  lot  might  fall  on  a  majority  from  the  same  State 
wLi>h  w^  ensure  the  election  of  a  man  from  that  State.  We  ought  to 
be  (rovemed  by  reason,  not  by  chance.  As  nobody  seemed  to  be 
satisfied,  he  wished  the  matter  to  be  postponed 

ili  Wilson  did  not  move  this  as  the  best  mode.  His  opinion 
remained  unshaken  that  we  ought  to  resort  to  the  people  for  the 
election.    He  seconded  the  postponement. 

M^  Gov!  Morris  observed  that  the  chances  were  almost  infinite 
agT  a  majority  of  electors  from  the  same  State. 

On  a  question  whether  the  last  motion  was  in  order,  it  waa 
determined  in  the  affirmative ;  7.  ays.  4  rocs. 

On  the  question  of  postponenS  it  was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Mr  Cakbol  took  occasion  to  observe  that  he  considered  tiie  elauae 
declaring  that  direct  taxation  on  the  States  should  be  in  proportion 
to  representation,  previous  to  the  obtaining  an  actual  census,  as  very 
objectionable,  and  that  he  reserved  to  himself  the  right  of  opposing 
it,  if  the  Report  of  the  Committee  of  detail  should  leave  it  in  the 
plan. 

Mr  Gov'.  Morris  hoped  the  Committee  would  strike  out  the  whole 
of  the  clause  proportioning  direct  taxation  to  representation.  He 
had  only  meant  it  as  a*  bridge  to  assist  us  over  a  certain  gulph; 
having  passed  the  gulph  the  bridge  may  be  removed.  He  thought 
the  principle  laid  down  with  so  much  strictness,  liable  to  atrong 
objections 

On  a  ballot  for  a  Committee  to  report  a  Constitution  conformable 
to  the  Resolutions  passei  by  the  Convention,  the  members  chosen 
were 

"The  object  was  to  Immb  tlie  cuenieaa  on  one  side,'  &  the  oppoiitlon  on 
thp  other,  to  the  share  of  representation  claimed  by  the  S.  Sothera  States  on 
account  of  the  Negroee. 

*  Thf  X.  B.  to  be  traneferred  hither  without  the  N.  B.< 

'  The  word  "  for  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  Madison's  direction  concerning  the  footnote  is  omitted  in  the  tranaeript. 


818      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Mr  Ratlidfe,  M'.  Randolph,  IT  Ohonim,  m  ElMworth,  Mt  Wil. 
•on— 

On  motion  to  discharge  the  Com?  of  the  whole  from  the  propoai. 
tiont  labmitted  to  the  Convention  by  Mt  C.  Pinknejr  aa  the  baait 
of  a  constitution,  and  to  refer  them  to  the  Committee  of  detail  joit 
appointed,  it  waa  ag'  to  nem :  con. 

A  liVe  motion  was  then  made  t  agreed  to  nem:  cob:  with  respect 
to  the  propositions  of  M(  Patterson 

Adjourned 


Wednesday  Jcly  25.    In  Convention 

*  Clause  relating  to  the  Executive '  again  under  consideration. 
M'.  Elbevtorth  moved  "  that  the  Execntive  be  appointed  by  thi 

Legislature,"  except  when  the  maginrate  last  chosen  shall  have 
continued  in  office  the  whole  term  for  which  he  was  chosen,  i  be 
reeligible,  in  which  caae  the  choice  shall  be  by  Electors  a*"  pointed 
by  the  Legislatures  of  the  States  for  that  purpose."  By  this  means 
a  deserving  magistrate  may  be  reelected  without  making  him  depend- 
ent on  the  Legislature.* 

MI  Oerrt  reoeated  his  mark  that  an  election  at  all  by  the  Nat! 
Legislature  was  radically  and  incurably  wrong;  and  moved  that  the 
Executive  be  appointed  by  the  Govemours  &  Presidents  of  the  States, 
with  advice  of  their  Councils,  and  where  there  are  no  Councils  by 
Electors  chosen  by  the  Legislatures.  The  executives  to  vote  in  the 
following  proportions:  viz — 

Mt  Madison.  There  are  objections  ag^  every  mode  that  has  been, 
or  perhaps  can  be  proposed.  The  election  must  be  made  either  by 
some  existing  authority  under  the  Nati'  or  State  Constitutions— or  by 
some  special  authority  derived  from  the  people — or  by  the  people 
themselves. — The  two  Existing  authorities  under  the  Nat'  Constitu- 
tion w^  be  the  Legislative  &  Judiciary.  The  latter  he  presumed  was 
out  of  the  question.  The  former  was  in  his  Judgment  liable  to  in- 
superable objections.  Besides  the  general  influence  of  that  mode 
on  the  independence  of  the  Executive,  1.*  the  election  of  the  Chief 
Magistrate  would  agitate  &  divide  the  legislature  so  much  that  the 
public  interest  would  materially  suffer  by  it.     Public  bodies  are 

'  The  word  "The"  is  hero  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  word  "  being  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  transcript  italicizes  the  phrase  "  malting  him  dependent  on  the  Lscis- 
lature." 

*  The  ligure  "  1  "  is  changed  to  "  In  the  first  place  "  in  the  transcr^t. 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  25,  1787 


S19 


ihvRyi  apt  to  b*  thrown  into  contentions,  '  it  Into  more  violent  onee 
hy  »uoh  oocwionn  than  by  any  other*.    2.    the  canditlate  would  in- 
trigue with  the  Legislature,  would  derive  hia  appointment  from  the 
pr  lomlnant  faction,  and  be  apt  to  render  hit  adminiatration  lub- 
Ber%-ipnt  to  ita  viewi.     3.'  The  Miniatera  of  foreign  powcia  would 
have  and*  make  use  of,  the  opportunity  to  mix  their  intrigue* 
Hi  influence  with  the  Election.    Limited  aa  the  powera  of  the  Execu- 
tive are,  it  will  be  an  object  of  great  moment  with  the  great  rival 
powera  of  Europe  who  have  American  poaaeaeiona,  to  have  at  th« 
head  of  our  Oovemml  a  man  attached  to  their  reapective  politica  * 
interfjta.    No  pains,  nor  perhapa  expence,  will  be  spared,  to  gain 
from    the   Legialature    an    appointm!    favorable    to    their    wiahea. 
(iermany  ft  Poland  are  witneaaea  of  thia  danger.    In  the  former,  the 
flection  of  the  Head  of  the  Empire,  till  it  became  in  a  manner 
hereditary,  interested  all  Europe,  and  waa  much  influenced  by  for- 
eign  interference.    In  the  latter,  altho'  the  elective  Magiatrate  hM 
rer>-  little  real  power,  hia  election  haa  at  all  timea  produced  the  most 
fairer  interference  of  forign  princea,  and  haa  in  fact  at  length  alid 
entirely  into  foreign  handa.    The  existing  authorities  in  the  States 
arc  the  Legislative.  Executive  ft  Judiciary.    The  appointment  of  the 
Nat.'  Executive  by  the  first,  was  objectionable  in  many  points  of  view, 
some  of  which  had  been  already  mentioned.    He  would  mention  ont 
which  of  itself  would  decide  hia  opinion.    The  Legialatures  of  the 
States  had  betrayed  a  strong  propensity  to  a  variety  of  pernicious 
mewures.    One  object  of  the  Nat'  LegisH*  waa  to  controul  this  pro- 
pensity.   One  object  of  the  Nat!  Executive,  so  far  aa  it  would  have 
a  negative  on  the  lawa,  waa  to  controul  the  Nat!  Legialature,  so  far 
it  might  be  infected  with  a  similar  propensity.     Refer  the 
appointm*.  of  the  Nat'  Executive  to  the  State  Legislatures,  and  this 
controuling  purpose  may  be  defeated.    The  Legislatures  can  ft  will 
act  with  some  kind  of  regular  plan,  and  will  promote  the  appointmi 
of  a  man  who  will  not  oppoae  hiirj  If  to  a  favorite  object.    Should 
a  majority  of  the  Legislatures  at  vac  time  of  election  have  the  same 
object,  or  different  objects  of  the  same  kind.  The  Nat'  Executive  would 
be  rendered  subaervient  to  them. — An  appointme-.t  by  the  State 
Executives,  waa  liable  among  other  objections  to  thi-  n.superable  one, 
that  being  standing  bodies,  they  could  ft  woula  be  courted,  and  in- 
trigued with  by  the  Candidatea,  by  their  partizans,  and  by  the  Min- 
isters of  foreign  powers.    The  State  Judiciarys  had  not  *  ft  he  pre- 


'  The  figure  "  2  "  it  changed  to  "  In  the  leeond  dImc  "  in  the  trmnicript. 
'  Tho  figure  "  3  "  it  changed  to  "  In  the  third  place  "  in  the  tranicript. 
'T!»;  Hurd  "  would"  In  here  inaertnt  lu  Ibe  tranM^ript. 
*  The  word  "  been  "  it  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript 


320      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

sraned  w*  not  be  proposed  aa  a  proper  source  of  appointment.    The 
option  before  us  then  lay  between  an  appointment  by  Elector* 
chosen   by   the   people— and   an    immediate   appointment   by   the 
people.    He  thiught  the  former  mode  free  from  many  of  the  objec- 
tions which  had  been  urged  ag?  it,  and  greatly  preferable  to  an 
appointment  by  the  Nat!  Legislature.     As  the  electors  would  be 
chosen  for  the  occasion,  would  meet  at  once,  &  proceed  immediately 
to  an  appointment,  there  would  be  very  little  opportunity  for  cabal, 
or  corruption.    As  a  farther  precaution,  it  might  be  required  that 
they  should  meet  at  some  place,  distinct  from  the  seat  of  Gov!  and 
even  that  no  person  within  a  certain  distance  of  the  place  at  the  time 
sW  be  eligible.    This  Mode  however  had  been  rejected  so  recently  i 
by  so  great  a  majority  that  it  probably  would  not  be  proposed  anew. 
The  remaining  mode  was  an  election  by  the  people  or  rather  by  the 
qualified  part  of  them,  at  large:  With  aU  its  imperfections  he  liked 
this  best.    He  would  not  repeat  either  the  general  argum**.  for  or  the 
objections  agf»  this  mode.    He  would  only  take  notice  of  two  diffi- 
culties which  he  admitted  to  have  weight.    The  first  arose  from  the 
disposition  in  the  people  to  prefer  a  Citizen  of  their  own  State,  and 
the  disadvantage  this  w1  throw  on  the  smaUer  States.    Great  as  this 
objection  might  be  he  did  not  think  it  equal  to  such  as  lay  agT 
every  other  mode  which  had  been  proposed.    He  thought  too  that 
some  expedient  might  be  hit  upon  that  would  obviate  it.    The  sec- 
ond difllculty  arose  from  the  disproportion  of  qualified  voters  in 
the  N.  &  S.  States,  and  the  disadvantages  which  this  mode  would 
throw  on  the  latter.    The  answer  to  this  objection  was  l.»  that  this 
disproportion  would  be  continually  decreasing  under  the  influence  of 
the  Republican  laws  introduced  in  the  S.  States,  and  the  more  rapid 
increase  of  their  population.    2.'  That  local  considerations  must  give 
way  to  the  general  interest.    As  an  individual  from  the  S.  States 
he  was  willing  to  make  the  sacrifice. 

Mr  Elseworth.  The  objection  drawn  from  the  different  sizes 
of  the  States,  is  unanswerable.  The  Citizens  of  the  largest  States 
would  invariably  prefer  the  Candidate  within  the  State;  and  the 
largest  States  w1  invariably  have  the  man. 

•Question  on  Mr  Elseworth 's  motion  as  above. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Del.  no.  Ml  ay. 
■V?  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 


The  figure     8"  i.  changed  to  "in  the  i^iA  place"  in  the  tranicript. 
.  P*  J'""*     O"  *•»«     are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
..„<.    M      i*'5"**'''''*."'t/°*'  "^^"  "^^^  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Pennsvl- 
p^^vJ^'q^  1^'^'^^'  Massachusetts,  New  Jersev.  Delaware,  Virgii^la,  North 
Carohaa,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 7."  • 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  25,  1787  321 

ip  PnaancT  moved  that  the  election  by  the  Legidatare  be  quali- 
fied with  a  proviso  that  no  person  be  eligible  for  more  than  6  yean 
in  any  twelve  years.  He  thought  this  wonld  have  all  the  advantage 
&  at  the  same  time  avoid  in  some  degree  the  inconveniency,^  of  an 
absolnte  ineligibility  a  2?  time. 

Col.  Uason  approved  the  idea.  It  had  the  sanction  of  experi- 
ence in  the  instance  of  Cong?  and  some  of  the  Bxecntives  of  the 
States.  It  rendered  the  Executive  as  effectually  independent,  as 
an  ineligibility  after  his  first  election,  and  opened  the  way  at  the 
same  time  for  the  advantage  of  his  future  services.  He  preferred  on 
the  whole  the  election  by  the  Nat!  Legislature:  Tho'  Candor  obliged 
him  to  admit,  that  there  was  great  danger  of  foreign  influence,  aa  had 
been  suggested.  This  was  the  most  serious  objection  with  him  that 
had  been  urged. 

W  BcTUES.  The  two  great  evils  to  be  avoided  are  cabal  at  home, 
&  influence  from  abroad.  It  will  be  difficult  to  avoid  either  if  the 
Election  be  made  by  the  Nat'  Legislature.  On  the  other  hand:  The 
Gov.«  should  not  be  made  so  complex  &  unwieldy  as  to  disgust  the 
States.  This  would  be  the  case,  if  the  election  sM  be  referred  to  the 
people.  He  liked  best  an  election  by  Electors  chosen  by  the  Legis- 
latures of  the  States.  He  was  ag!*  a  re-eligibility  at  all  events.  He 
was  also  ag?'  a  ratio  of  votes  in  the  States.  An  equality  should  pre- 
vail in  this  case.  The  reasons  for  departing  from  it  do  not  hold  in 
the  case  of  the  Executive  as  in  that  of  the  Legislature. 

M'.  Gerry  approved  of  Mr  Pinkney's  motion  as  lessening  the  evil. 

Jr  Govr  Morris  was  ag?  a  rotation  in  every  case.  It  formed  a 
political  School,  in  w*  we  were  always  governed  by  the  scholars,  and 
not  by  the  Masters.  The  evils  to  be  guarded  ag?  in  this  case  are 
1.=  the  undue  influence  of  the  Legislature.  2*  instability  of  Councils. 
3.=  misconduct  in  office.  To  guard  ag?  the  first,  we  run  into  the 
second  evil.  We  adopt  a  rotation  which  produces  instability  of 
Councils.  To  avoid  Sylla  we  fall  into  Charibdis.  A  change  of  men 
is  ever  followed  by  a  change  of  measures  We  see  this  fully  exem- 
plified in  the  vicissitudes  among  ourselves,  particularly  in  the  State 
of  Pen?  The  self-sufficiency  of  a  victorious  party  scorns  to  tread 
in  the  paths  of  their  predecessors.  Rehoboam  will  not  imitate  Solo- 
man.    2."  the  Rotation  in  office  will  not  prevent  intrigue  and  depend- 


'The  word  " inconveniency "  ia  chmnnd  to  " ineonvraience "  in  the  tran- 

wript. 

/pe  flgu!-.  "1,"  "a-  tad  "3"  are  changed  to  "llrrt,"  "eeoondly"  and 
thirdly     in  the  tranacript. 

•  The  figure  "  2  "  ia  chajiged  to  "  Secondly  "  in  the  tranacript. 


822      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

ence  on  the  Legislature.  The  man  in  office  wiU  look  forward  to  the 
period  at  which  he  will  become  re-eligible.  The  distance  of  the 
period,  the  improbability  of  such  a  protraction  of  his  life  will  be 
no  obstacle.  Such  is  the  nature  of  man,  formed  by  hia  benevolent 
author  no  doubt  for  wise  ends,  .that  altho'  he  knows  his  existence 
to  be  limited  to  a  span,  he  takes  his  measures  as  if  he  were  to  live  for 
ever.  But  taking  another  supposition,  the  inefficacy  of  the  expedient 
will  be  manifest.  If  the  magistrate  does  not  look  forward  to  his 
re-election  to  the  Executive,  he  will  be  pretty  sure  to  keep  in  view  the 
opportunity  of  his  going  into  the  Legislature  itself.  He  will  have 
little  objection  then  to  an  extension  of  power  on  a  theatre  where 
he  expects  to  act  a  distinguished  part;  and  will  be  very  unwilling 
to  take  any  step  that  may  endanger  his  popularity  with  the  Legislv 
ture,  on  his  influence  over  which  the  figure  he  is  to  make  will  depend. 
3.*  To  avoid  the  third  evil,  impeachments  will  be  essential,  and 
hence  an  additional  reason  agf*  an  election  by  the  Legislature.  He 
considered  an  election  by  the  people  as  the  best,  by  the  Legislature  as 
the  worst,  mode.  Putting  both  these  aside,  he  could  not  but  favor 
the  idea  of  W.  Wilson,  of  introducing  a  mixture  of  lot.  It  will 
diminish,  if  not  destroy  both  cabal  &  dependence. 

MT  WiLUAHSON  was  sensible  that  strong  objecti(»u  lay  agf  an 
election  of  the  Executive  by  the  Legislature,  and  that  it  opened  a 
door  for  foreign  influence.  The  principal  objection  ag?  an  election 
by  the  people  seemed  to  be,  the  disadvantage  under  which  it  would 
place  the  smaller  States.  He  suggested  as  a  cure  for  this  difficulty, 
that  each  man  should  vote  for  3  candidates.  One  of  these »  he  observed 
would  be  probably  of  his  own  State,  the  other  2.  of  some  other 
States;  and  as  probably  of  a  small  as  a  large  one. 

MI  Govt  Morris  liked  the  idea,  suggesting  as  an  amendment  that 
each  man  should  vote  for  two  persons  one  of  whom  at  least  should  not 
be  of  his  own  State. 

M^  Madison  also  thought  something  valuable  mi^t  be  made  of 
the  suggestion  with  the  proposed  amendment  of  it.  The  second  best 
man  in  this  case  would  probably  be  the  first,  in  fact.  The  only 
objection  which  occurred  was  that  each  Citizen  after  hav?  given  his 
vote  for  his  favorite  fellow  Citizen,  w^  throw  away  his  second  on  some 
obscure  Citizen  of  another  State,  in  order  to  ensure  the  object  of  his 
first  choice.  But  it  could  hardly  be  supposed  that  the  Citizens  of 
many  States  would  be  so  sanguine  of  having  their  favorite  elected, 
as  not  to  give  their  second  vote  with  sincerity  to  the  next  object  of 


•  The  figure  "  3 
■  The  word  "  them 


is  changed  to  "  FimillT  "  in  the  tranieript. 
"  is  lubttituted  in  the  transcript  for 


rip 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  JULY  25,  1787 


323 


their  choice.    It  might  moreover  be  provided  in  favor  of  the  smaller 
States  that  the  Executive  should  not  be  eligible  more  than 
times  in  years  from  the  same  State. 

Mr  Oerbt.  a  popular  election  in  this  case  is  radically  vicioot. 
The  ignorance  of  the  people  would  put  it  in  the  power  of  some  one  set 
of  men  dispersed  through  the  Union  &  acting  in  Concert  to  delude 
them  into  any  appointment.  He  observed  that  such  a  Society  of 
men  existed  in  the  Order  of  the  Cincinnati.  They  are  respectable, 
United,  and  influencial.  They  will  in  fact  elect  the  chief  Magistrate 
in  every  instance,  if  the  election  be  referred  to  the  people.  His  re- 
spect for  the  characters  composing  this  Society  could  not  blind  him 
to  the  danger  &  impropriety  of  throwing  such  a  power  into  their 
hands. 

Mr  Dickenson.  As  far  as  he  could  judge  from  the  discussioni 
which  had  taken  place  during  his  attendance,  insuperable  objections 
lay  ag!'  an  election  of  the  Executive  by  the  Nat"  Legislature ;  as  also 
by  the  Legislatures  or  Executives  of  the  States.  He  had  long  leaned 
towards  an  election  by  the  people  which  he  regarded  as  the  best  & 
purest  source.  Objections  he  was  aware  lay  agf  this  mode,  but  not 
so  great  he  thought  as  agf  the  other  modep  The  greatest  difficulty 
in  the  opinion  of  the  House  seemed  to  arise  from  the  partiality  of 
the  States  to  their  respective  Citizens.  But,  might  not  this  very 
partiality  be  turned  to  a  useful  purpose.  Let  the  people  of  each 
State  chuse  its  best  Citizen.  The  people  will  know  the  most  eminent 
characters  of  their  own  States,  and  the  people  of  different  States 
will  feel  an  emulation  in  selecting  those  of  which  *  they  will  have  the 
greatest  reason  to  be  proud.  Out  of  the  thirteen  names  thus  selected, 
an  Executive  Magistrate  may  be  chosen  either  by  the  Nati  Legisla- 
ture, or  by  Electors  appointed  by  it. 

On  a  Question  which  was  moved  for  postponing  MT  Pink- 
ney's  motion;  in  order  to  make  way  for  some  such  proposition 
as  had  been  hinted  by  MT  Williamson  &  others:  it  passed  in  the 
negative. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  OS  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P»  ay.  Del.  no.  Ml  ay. 
V»  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

On  Mt  Pinkney's  motion  that  no  person  shall  serve  in  the 
Executive  more  than  6  years  in  12.  years,  it  passed  in  the 
negative. 


•  The  word  "  whom  "  ie  iubstituted  tn  th*  transcript  for  "  which." 
\t       '"  *•>« ''"BKript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  PennsTlvania, 
iiaryland    Virginia,  aye— 5;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Delaware,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— «." 


324      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


P?  no.    Del.  no.    M"  no. 


N.  H.  ay,    Mas.  ay.    C;  no.    N.  J.    o. 
V»  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.> 

On  a  motion  that  the  members  of  the  Committee  be  furnished 
with  copies  of  the  proceedings  it  was  so  determined ;  S.  Carolina  alone 
being  in  the  negative. 

It  was  then  moved  that  the  members  of  the  House  might  take 
copies  of  the  Resolions  which  had  been  agreed  to;  which  passed  in 
the  negative. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  Con:  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P^  no.  Delay.  Mary« 
no.    Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no    Geo.  no.' 

m  Gerry  &  Mr  Butler  moved  to  refer  the  resolution  relating  to 
the  Executive  (except  the  clause  making  it  consist  of  a  single  per- 
son)  to  the  Committee  of  detail 

Mr  Wilson  hoped  that  so  important  a  branch  of  the  System  v! 
not  be  committed  untill  a  general  principle  sh*  be  fixed  by  a  vote  of 
the  House. 

in  Lanqdon,  was  for  the  Commitment— Adji 


Thursday  July.  26.    m  Convention. 

Col.»  Mason.  In  every  Stage  of  the  Question  relative  to  the 
Executive,  the  difficulty  of  the  subject  and  the  diversity  of  the 
opinions  concerning  it  have  appeared.  Nor  have  any  of  the  modes 
of  constituting  that  department  been  satisfactory.  l.«  It  haa  been 
proposed  that  the  election  should  be  made  by  the  people  at  large-  that 
18  that  an  act  which  ought  to  be  performed  by  those  who  know'most 
of  Eminent  characters,  &  qualifications,  should  be  performed  by  those 
who  know  le^t.  2.*  that  the  election  should  be  made  by  the  Legisla- 
tures  of  the  States.  3.*  by  the  Executives  of  the  States.  AgT  these 
modes  also  strong  objections  have  been  urged.  4.*  It  has  been  proposed 
that  the  election  should  be  made  by  Electors  chosen  by  the  people 
for  that  purpose.  This  was  at  first  agreed  to:  But  on  furtheVcon- 
sideration  ha.s  been  rejected.    5.*  Since  which,  the  mode  of  Ml  Wil- 


«re  changed  to  "First,"  "S«e- 


SESSION  OF  THURSDAY,  JULY  26,  1787 


325 


liamson,  requiring  each  freeholder  to  vote  for  several  candidates  has 
been  proposed.    This  seemed  like  many  other  propositions,  to  carry 
a  plausible  face,  but  on  closer  inspection  is  liable  to  fatal  objections. 
A  popular  election  in  any  form,  as  W  Oerry  has  observed,  would 
throw  the  appointment  into  the  hands  of  the  Cincinnati,  a  Society 
for  the  members  of  which  he  had  a  great  respect ;  but  which  he  never 
w-ished  to  have  a  preponderating  influence  in  the  (Jovl    6.*  Another 
expedient  was  proposed  by  M^  Dickenson,  which  is  liable  to  so  palpable 
&  material  an  inconvenience  that  he  had  little  doubt  of  its  being 
by  this  time  rejected  by  himself.    It  would  exclude  every  man  who 
happened  not  to  be  popular  within  his  own  State;  tho'  the  causes 
of  his  local  unpopularity  might  be  of  such  a  nature  as  to  recommend 
him  to  the  States  at  large.    7.^  Among  other  expedients,  a  lottery  has 
been  introduced.    But  as  the  tickets  do  not  appear  to  be  in  much 
demand,  it  will  probably,  not  be  carried  on,  and  nothing  therefore 
need  be  said  on  that  subject.    After  reviewing  all  these  various  modes, 
he  was  led  to  conclude,  that  an  election  by  the  Nat*  Legislature  as 
originally  proposed,  was  the  best.    If  it  was  liable  to  objections,  it 
was  liable  to  fewer  than  any  other.     He  conceived  at  the  same 
time  that  a  second  election  oueht  to  be  absolutely  prohibited.    Having 
for  his  primary  object,  for  the  pole* -star  of  his  political  conduct, 
the  preservation  of  the  rights  of  the  people,  he  held  it  as  an  essen- 
tial point,  as  the  very  palladium  of  Civil  liberty,  that  the  great 
officers  of  State,  and  particularly  the  Executive  should  at  fixed 
periods  return  to  that  mass  from  which  they  were  at  first  taken, 
in  order  that  they  may  feel  &  respect  those  rights  &  interests,  which 
are  again  to  be  personally  valuable  to  them.     He  concluded  with 
moving  that  the  constitution  of  the  Executive  as  reported  by  the 
Com':  of  the  whole  be  re-instated,  viz.  "  that  the  Executive  be  ap- 
pointed for  seven  years,  &  be  ineligible  a  2fi  time  " 
M^  Davie  seconded  the  motion 

DocT  Franklin.  It  seems  to  have  l  imagined  by  some  that 
the  returning  to  the  mass  of  the  people  wat  degrading  the  magistrate. 
This  he  thought  was  contrary  to  republican  principles.  In  free  Qov- 
emments  the  rulers  are  the  servants,  and  the  people  their  superiors 
&  sovereigns.  For  the  former  therefore  to  return  among  the  latter 
was  not  to  degrade  but  to  promote  them.  And  it  would  be  imposing 
an  unreasonable  burden  on  them,  to  keep  them  always  in  a  State  of 
servitude,  and  not  allow  them  to  become  again  one  of  the  Masters. 


'The  fipiret  "6"  and  "7"  are  changed  to  "Sixthly"  and  "Seventhly"  ia 
the  transcript. 

"  The  word  "  polar  "  is  aubetituted  in  the  transcript  for  the  word  "  pole." 


326      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

*  Question  on  Col,  Maaona  motion  as  above ;  which '  passed  in  the 
afDrmative 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas?  not  on  floor,  a  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del  no 
M^  ay.    VJ  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

M:  GovI  Mokris  was  now  agf  the  whole  paragraph.  In  annrer 
to  Col.  Mason's  position  that  a  periodical  return  of  the  great  c^cen 
of  the  State  into  the  mass  of  the  people,  was  the  palladium  of  Civil 
liberty  he  w1  observe  that  on  the  same  principle  the  Judiciary  ought 
to  be  periodically  degraded;  certain  it  was  that  the  Legislature  ought 
on  every  principle,  yet  no  one  had  proposed,  or  conceived  that  the 
members  of  it  should  not  be  re^ligible.  In  answer  to  Doc?  Franklin, 
that  a  return  into  the  mass  of  the  people  would  be  a  promotion,  in' 
stead  of  a  degradation,  he  had  no  doubt  that  our  Executive  like  most 
others  would  have  too  much  patriotism  to  shrink  from  the  burden  of 
his  office,  and  too  much  modesty  not  to  be  willing  to  decline  the  pro- 
motion. 

On  the  question  on  the  whole  resolution  as  amended  in  the  words 
foUowing— "  that  a  National  Executive  be  instituted— to  consist  of  a 
single  person— to  be  chosen  by  the  Nat'  legisUture— for  the  term  of 
seven  years— to  be  ineligible  a  2*  time-with  power  to  carry  into 
execution  the  nat'  laws— to  appoint  to  offices  in  cases  not  otherwise 
provided  for— to  be  removeable  on  impeachment  &  conviction  of  mal- 
practice  or  neglect  of  duty— to  receive  a  fixt  compensation  for  the 
devotion  of  his  time  to  the  public  service,  to  be  paid  out  of  the  Nat! 
treasury  "—it  passed  in  the  affirmative 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  not  on  floor.  G  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  K  no.  Del.  no. 
M*  no.  V!  divl  M^  Blair  &  Col.  Mason  ay.  GenJ  Washington  * 
M!  Madison  no.  Mr  Randolph  happened  to  be  out  of  the  House. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Mr  Masov  moved  "  that  the  Committee  of  detail  be  instructed  to 
receive  a  clause  requiring  certain  qualifications  of  landed  property  ft 
citizenship  of  the  U.  States  in  members  of  the»  Legislature,  and  dis- 
qualifying persons  having  unsettled  Accf  with  or  being  indebted  to  the 


•The  '^"'d.  "On  the"  are  here  inaerted  in  the  trangcript. 
above  it"  "h'eh"  i»  crowed  out  in  the  transcript  and  "it"  la  writtoi 

vi,„!J"  *w  *!?"?«•!?*  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire.  New  Jersey.  Marrland. 

Virgin  a.  North  Carolina.  South  Carolina.  Georgia,  ave-7;  Connecticut    Pe^- 

sylvania,  Delaware,  no-3:  Massachusetts  not  on  the  floor."    '''"'°^""''*'^'  ^"^ 

In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:    "New  Hampshire.   Connecticut    New 

Bla?;  ^n^Pnl  'm^  '  Mas8achu«,tts  not  on  the  floor;  Virginia   divided  [Mr. 
Wltji  ui,  *i*!""^  'y*    9"""'   Washington  and   Mr.   Madison    no,   Mr. 

Randolph  happened  to  be  out  of  the  House.]  " 

•  The  word  "  National  "  is  here  insertt-d  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JULY  26,  1787 


327 


U.  S.  from  being  members  of  the  Nat'  Legulatore  "—He  obeerved 
that  penonf  of  the  Utter  deeeriptions  had  frequently  got  into  the 
State  Legialatorei,  in  order  to  promote  laws  that  might  shelter  their 
delinqueneiee;  and  that  thia  evil  had  crept  into  Congt  if  Report  waa 
to  be  regarded. 

W-  PiNCKNiT  leeonded  the  motion 

M:  Oot^  Mobsis.  If  qualifications  are  proper,  he  w1  prefer  them 
in  the  electors  rather  than  the  elected.  As  to  debtors  of  the  U.  S. 
they  are  but  few.  As  to  persons  having  unsettled  aecoonta  he  believed 
them  to  be  pretty  many.  He  thought  however  that  such  a  discrimina- 
tion would  be  both  odious  ft  useless,  and  in  many  instances  unjust 
&  emel.  The  delay  of  settlemi  had  been  more  the  fault  of  the 
public  than  of  the  individuals.  What  will  be  done  with  those 
patriotic  Citizens  who  have  lent  money,  or  services  or  property  to 
their  Country,  without  having  been  yet  able  to  obtain  a  liquidation 
of  their  claimaf    Are  they  to  be  excluded  t 

&P  Ohobum  was  for  leaving  to  the  Legislature,  the  providing  a^ 
luch  abuses  as  had  been  mentioned. 

Col.  Mason  mentioned  the  parliamentary  qualifications  adopted 
in  the  Reign  of  Queen  Anne,  which  he  said  had  met  with  universal 
approbation 

M!  Madison  had  witnessed  the  seal  of  men  having  ace*?  with  the 
public,  to  get  into  the  Legislatures  for  sinister  purposes.  He  thought 
however  that  if  any  precaution  were  to  be  *  taken  for  excluding  them, 
the  one  proposed,  by  CoL  Mason  ou^t  to  be  new  *  modelled.  It  mif^t 
be  well  to  limit  the  exclusion  to  persons  who  had  red  money  from 
the  public,  and  had  not  accounted  for  it. 

W-  Govt  Mobeis.  It  was  a  precept  of  great  antiquity  as  well  as  • 
high  authority  that  we  should  not  be  righteous  overmuch.  He 
thought  we  ought  to  be  equally  on  our  guard  agi*  being  wise  over 
much.  The  proposed  regulation  would  enable  the  Qoven!  to  exclude 
particular  persons  from  office  as  long  as  they  pleased  He  mentioned 
the  case  of  the  Commander  in  Chief's  presenting  his  account  for  secret 
services,  which  he  said  was  so  moderate  that  every  one  was  aston- 
ished at  it;  and  so  simple  that  no  doubt  could  arise  on  it.  Yet  had 
the  Auditor  been  disposed  to  delay  the  settlement,  how  easily  might 
he  ♦  have  effected  it,  &  how  cruel  w^  it  be  in  such  a  case  to  keep  a 


'  The  word*  "  to  be  "  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  word  "  new  "  ia  crogged  out  and  the  syllable  "  re  "  ia  written  above  it. 
•  The  word  "  of  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  worda  "  might  he  "  are  tranapoaed  to  read  "  he  might     in  the  tran- 
script 


828      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

dirtinguuhed  ft  meritorioiu  Citizen  under  »  temporary  dinbilitr 
*  duf  ranchuement  He  mentioned  thii  cam  merely  to  iUiutrate  the 
objeetioneble  nature  of  the  propoeition.  He  was  oppoaed  to  nch 
minutioua  regulationa  in  a  Conatitntion.  The  parliamentary  qoali- 
flcatione  quoted  by  Col.  Ma«>n,  had  been  diaregarded  in  practice- 
and  was  but  a  scheme  of  the  landed  ag»'  the  monied  interest.  * 

MT  PiNCKNBT  &  Gen!  Pincknet  moved  to  insert  by  way  of 
amendm*  the  words  Judiciary  &  Executive  so  as  to  extend  the  quali- 
ficaUons  to  those  departments  which  was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Ms  Obbrt  thought  the  inconveniency »  of  excluding  a  few  worthy 
individuals  who  might  be  public  debtors  or  have  unsettled  ace",  ought 
not  to  be  put  in  the  scale  agf»  the  public  advantages  of  the  regola. 
tion,  and  that  the  motion  did  not  go  far  enough. 

M'.  Kino  observed  that  there  might  be  great  danger  in  requiring 
landet.  property  as  a  qualification  since  it  would »  exclude  the  monied 
interest  whose  aids  may  be  essential  in  particular  emergencies  to 
the  public  safety. 

Mf  Dickenson,  was  ag?  any  recital  of  qualifications  in  the  Con- 
stitution.  It  was  impossible  to  make  a  compleat  one,  and  a  partial 
one  w1  by  impUcation  tie  up  the  hands  of  the  Legislature  from  sup. 
plying  the  omissions,  The  best  defence  lay  in  the  freeholders  who 
were  to  elect  the  Legislature.  Whilst  this  Source  •  should  remain  pure 
the  public  interest  would  be  safe.  If  it  ever  should  be  corrupt,  no 
little  expedients  would  repel  the  danger.  He  doubted  the  poUcy  of 
interweaving  into  a  Republican  constitution  a  veneration  for  wealth. 
He  had  always  understood  that  a  veneration  for  poverty  &  virtue, 
were  the  objects  of  republican  encouragement.  It  seemed  improper 
that  any  man  of  merit  ahould  be  subjected  to  disabilities  in  a  Republic 
where  ment  waa  understood  to  form  the  great  tiUe  to  pubUc  trust 
honors  &  rewards. 

M!  Gerry  if  property  be  one  object  of  Government,  provisions 
tor  securing  *  it  cannot  be  improper. 

^^    MT  Madison  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  landed,  before  the  word 

qualifications."    If  the  proposition  si  be  agreed  to  he  wished  the 

Committee  to  be  at  liberty  to  report  the  beet  criterion  they  could 

devise.    Landed  possessions  were  no  certain  evidence  of  real  wealth. 


script 


The  word  "Inconveniency"  is  changed  to  "Inconvenience"  in  the  traa- 
'•ne  word  "Diipht"  le  eubstltuted  in  the  transcript  for  the  word  "would." 
word  "s^ur^'"  "'"""*  erroneously  substituted  in  the  tnuucript  for  tks 
•cript^^  ^°'^'     *°  »ecure"  are  ntbtUtuted  for  "for  securing."  in  the  traa. 


> 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JULY  26,  1787 


329 


Many  enjoyed  them  to  a  great  extent  who  were  more  in  debt  than 
they  were  worth.    The  unjtut  lawi  of  the  Statea  had  proceeded  more 
fiom  thia  claaa  of  men,  than  any  othera.    It  had  often  happened 
that  men  who  had  acquirtd  landed  property  on  credit,  got  into  the 
Legialaturea  with  a  view  of  promoting  an  unjuet  protection  ag?  their 
Creditor*    In  the  next  place,  if  a  amaU  quantity  of  land  should  be 
made  the  eUndard,  it  would  be  no  security;  if  a  large  one,  it  would 
exclude  the  proper  repreaenUtivea  of  those  classes  of  Citiaena  who 
were  not  landholders.   It  was  politic  aa  well  aa  just  that  the  interests 
&  rights  of  every  class  should  be  duly  represented  &  understood  in 
the  public  Councils.    It  was  a  proTision  every  where  estoblished  that 
the  Country  should  be  divided  into  districts  k  represenUtivee  taken 
from  each,  in  order  that  the  Legislative  Assembly  might  equally 
understand  &  sympathise,  with  the  rights  of  the  people  in  every  part 
of  the  Community.     It  was  not  less  proper  that  every  class  of 
Citizens  should  have  an  opportunity  of  making  their  righta  be  felt 
&  understood  in  the  pubUc  Councils.    The  three  principal  classes 
into  which  our  citiiena  were  divisible,  were  the  landed  the  commer- 
cial  &  the  manufacturing.    The  24  4  3*  class,  bear  as  yet  a  small 
proportion  to  the  first.    The  proportion  however  wiU  daily  "wrease^ 
We  see  in  the  populous  Countries  in »  Europe  now,  what  we  shaU  be 
hereafter.    These  classes  understand  much  less  of  each  others  in- 
terests  &  affairs,  than  men  of  the  same  class  inhabiting  different  dis- 
tricts.  It  is  particularly  requisite  therefore  that  the  intereato  of  one  ot 
two  of  them  should  not  be  left  entirely  to  the  care,  or  the » impartial- 
ity of  the  third.   Thia  muat  be  the  casd  if  landed  qualifications  should 
be  required;  few  of  the  mercantile,  &  scarcely  any  of  the  manufactui^ 
ing  class,  chusing  whiJ    they  continue  in  business  to  turn  any  part  of 
their  Stock  into  landt.      -operty.    For  these  reasons  he  wished  if 
it  were  possible  that  some  other  criterion  than  the  mere  PM««»f» 
of  land  should  be  devised.    He  concurred  with  !»  GoV.  Moma  in 
thinking  that  qualifications  in  the  Blecton  would  be  much  more 
effectual  than  in  the  elected.    The  former  would  discnminate  be- 
tween  real  &  ostensible  property  in  the  latter;  But  he  waa  aware 
of  the  difftculty  of  forming  any  uniform  standard  that  would  suit 
the  different  circumatancea  &  opiniona  prevailing  in  the  different 

States. 

M'.  Govl  MoRios  2*r*  the  motion. 

On  the  Question  for  striking  out  "  landed  " 

« The  word  "  of  "  U  iubrtituted  In  the  trmiweript  few  "  ta." 
•The  word  "the"  U  omitted  In  the  tnaterlpt. 


330      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

N.  H.  ay.  Maa.  ay.  G  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P*.  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  no. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo,  ay.' 

On '  Question  on  ■  1*!  part  of  Col.  Maaona  propoiition  aa  to  quali- 
fication of  property  k  citizenship,"  as  so  amended 

N.  H.  ay.  Maa*;  ay.  C\  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  ay. 
V*  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

"  The  21  part,  for  disqualifying  debtors,  and  persona  having  nn- 
■ettled  accounta,"  being  under  conaideration 

M'.  Carrol  moved  to  strike  out "  having  unsettled  accounts  " 

MT  Qhorum  seconded  the  motion;  observing  that  it  would  put 
the  commercial  &  manufacturing  part  of  the  people  on  a  worse  foot- 
ing than  others  as  they  would  be  most  likely  to  have  dealings  with 
the  public 

M!  L.  Martin,  if  these  words  should  be  atmek  out,  and  the  re- 
maining words  concerning  debtors  retained,  it  will  be  the  interest 
of  the  latter  class  to  keep  their  accounts  unsettled  as  long  as  poMible. 

Mt  WiLBON  was  for  striking  them  out.  They  put  too  much  power 
in  the  hands  of  the  Auditors,  who  might  combine  with  rivals  in  delay- 
ing settlements  in  order  to  prolong  the  disqualifications  of  particular 
men.  We  should  consider  that  we  are  providing  a  Constitution  for 
future  generations,  and  not  merely  for  the  peculiar  circumstances 
of  the  moment.  The  time  has  been,  and  will  again  be,  when  the 
public  safety  may  depend  on  the  voluntary  aids  of  individuals  which 
will  necessarily  open  ace",  with  the  public,  and  whrn  such  ace*?  will 
be  a  characteristic  of  patriotism.  Besides  a  partial  enumeration  of 
cases  will  disable  the  Legislature  from  disqualifying  odious  &  danger- 
ous characters. 

W  Lanodon  was  for  striking  out  the  whole  dauae  for  the  reasons 
given  by  MS  Wilson.  So  many  exclusions  he  thought  too  would  ren- 
der the  system  unacceptable  to  the  people. 

M:  Gehibt.  If  the  argum'!  used  to  day  were  to  prevail,  we  might 
have  a  Legislature  composed  of  public  debtors,  pensioners,  place- 
men &  contractors.  He  thought  the  proposed  qualifications  would  he 
pleasing  to  the  people.  They  will  be  considered  as  a  security  ag? 
unnecessary  or  undue  burdens  being  imposed  on  them.  He  moved  to 
add  "  pensioners  "  to  the  disqualified  characters  which  was  negatived. 


In  thn  transcript  the  vote  re»d«:  "New  Hampshire,  Muiachunettt,  Con- 
necticut, New  .Tergey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Sontfc 
Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 10;  Maryland,  nr  " 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

T  "  '"^I'"'  .^'''^'^''.P*  .*''*  '"**  "*<*•'  "  New  Hampshire.  Massachusetts,  New 
Jersey,  Maryland,  Virftmia.  North  Carolina.  South  Carolina,  Georiria,  aye— 8: 
Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  no— 3." 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  JULY  26,  1787 


331 


N.  H.  no 
ay.    Vf  no. 


Del.  no.    Maryl 


Mm.  «y.    Con.  no.    N.  J.  no.    V*.  no. 
N.  C.  divided.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.' 

M'  Oov<  MoRiuB.  The  last  clanae,  relating  to  pablio  debtors  will 
exclude  every  importing  merchant.  Revenue  will  be  drawn  it  la 
foreseen  aa  mueh  aa  poaaible,  from  trade.  Datiea  of  eounw  will  be 
bonded,  and  the  Meroh*?  will  remain  debtors  to  the  pablic.  He  re- 
peated that  it  had  not  been  ao  much  the  fault  of  individual!  aa  of 
the  public  that  tranaactiona  between  them  had  not  been  more  Ren- 
rrally  liquidated  &  adjusted.  At  all  eventa  to  draw  from  our  short  k 
wanty  experience  rules  that  are  to  operate  through  aucceeding  ages, 
do«8  not  savour  much  of  real  wisdom. 

On '  question  for  striking  out,  "  persons  having  unsettled  accounts 
with  the  U.  States." 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M«  ay. 
V"  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

M'.  Elseworth  waa  for  disagreeing  to  the  remainder  of  the  clause 
diKqualifying  public  debtors;  and  for  leaving  to  the  wisdom  of  the 
Lff^slature  and  the  virtue  of  the  Citizens,  the  task  of  providing 
aff'-  such  evils.  Is  the  smallest  as  well*  largest  debtor  to  be  ex- 
cluded t  Then  every  arrear  of  tazea  will  disqualify.  Besides  how 
is  it  to  be  known  to  the  people  when  they  elect  who  are  or  are  not 
public  debtors.  The  exclusion  of  pensioners  &  placemen  in  EngH 
18  founded  on  a  consideration  not  existing  here.  As  persons  of  that 
sort  are  dependent  on  the  Crown,  they  tend  to  increase  its  influence. 

)lr  PiNKNCT  B?  he  waa  at  first  a  friend  to  the  proposition,  for  the 
sake  of  the  clause  relating  to  qualifications  of  property;  but  he  dis- 
liked the  exclusion  of  public  debtors ;  it  went  too  far.  It  w1  exclude 
persons  who  had  purchased  confiscated  property  or  should  purchaae 
Western  territory  of  the  public,  and  might  be  some  obstacle  to  the 
sale  of  the  latter. 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  the  dauae  disqualifying  public 
debtors 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C.^  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pt  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
V!  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay." 

'In  the  tranicript  the  vote  readt:  " Mamchusetts,  Maryland,  Georgia, 
aye — 3;  New  Hampenire,  Connecticut,  New  Jeney,  PenneylTania,  Delaware, 
Virginia,  South  Carolina,  no— 7 :  North  Carolina,  divided." 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inecrted  in  the  tnnicript. 

'In  the  tranicript  the  vote  readt:  "New  Hampthire,  MsMaehuietti,  Oon- 
npoticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South 
Carolina,  aye — 8;  New  Jeriey,  Georgia,  no— 2." 

*  The  words  "  as  the  "  are  here  Inaertp-l  in  the  transcript 

*  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "No.th  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 2;  New 
Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virginia.  South  Carolina,  no—*." 


833      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Col.  91*80N.  obierved  that  it  would  be  proper,  m  he  thought,  thtt 
■ome  proviiioQ  should  Ite  made  in  the  Constitution  a«f  choosing  fur 
the  seat  of  the  Gen!  Qov.'  the  City  or  place  at  which  the  seat  of  any 
State  Oov!  might  b«  flxt.  There  were  2  objections  ag?  having  them 
at  the  same  place,  which  without  mentioning  others,  required  some 
precaution  on  the  subject.  The  1**  was  that  it  tended  to  produce 
disputes  concerning  jurisdiction.  The  2^  &  principsl  one  was  that 
the  intermixture  of  the  two  Legislatures  tended  to  give  a  provincial 
tincture  to  y*.  Nat'  deliberations.  He  moved  that  the  Com?  be  in- 
structed to  receive  a  clause  to  prevent  the  seat  of  the  Nat'  Qov! 
being  in  the  same  City  or  town  with  the  Seat  of  the  Oov^  of  any  State 
longer  than  untill  the  necessary  public  buildings  could  be  erected. 

W  Alex.  ILoitin  2^  the  motion. 

W.  Gov'  Morris  did  not  dislike  the  idea,  but  waa  apprehensive 
that  such  a  clause  might  make  enemies  of  Phild*  &  N.  York  which 
had  expectatioDfi  of  becoming  the  Seat  of  the  Gen!  Qoy\ 

Ml  Langoon  approved  the  idea  also:  but  suggisted  the  case  of  a 
State  moving  its  seat  of  Govt  to  the  nat!  seat  after  the  erection  of 
the  public  buildings. 

M:  Grokum.  The  precaution  may  be  evaded  by  the  Nat'  LegisK* 
by  delaying  to  erect  the  public  buildings 

Mr  Gebrt  conceived  it  to  be  the  gene.'  sense  of  America,  that  neither 
the  Seat  of  a  State  Gov!  nor  any  large  commercial  City  should  be  the 
■eat  of  the  Gen!  Govt 

Mt  WnxiAMSOH  liked  the  idea,  but  knowing  how  mu^h  the  pas- 
sions of  men  were  agitated  by  this  matter,  was  apprehensive  of  turn- 
ing them  agf  the  System.  He  apprehended  also  that  an  evasion 
might  be  practiced  in  the  way  hinted  by  Mr  Ghorum. 

M!  PiNKXKY  thought  the  seat  of  a  State  Gov!  ought  to  be  avoided; 
but  that  a  large  town  or  its  vicinity  would  be  proper  for  the  Seat 
of  the  Gen!  Gov! 

Col.  Mason  did  not  mean  to  press  the  motion  at  this  time,  nor 
to  excite  any  hostile  passions  ag!*  the  system.  He  waa  content  to 
withdraw  the  motion  for  the  present. 

M?  BuTLCR  was  for  fixing  by  the  Constitution  the  place,  ft  a 
central  one,  for  the  seat  of  the  Nat'  Gov! 

The  proceedings  since  Monday  last  were  referred  unanimously  *  ti) 
the  Com*  of  detail,  and  the  Convention  then  unanimously  Adjourned 
till  Monday,  Aug^  6.  that  the  Com*,  of  detail  might  have  time  to 


'  The  wordi  "  n>f ^'it<h1  aoaaiir. josly  "  are  traaaposed  to  read 
nferred  "  in  the  transcript. 


■  ^«iyiilmnil«ly 


SESSION  OF  THUBIiDAT,  JULT  S6,  1787 

prepare  k  report  the  Coii<ititatkai.    The  whole  proceedinfi '  M  n- 
ferred  are  u  follow:  "  [here  copy  them  from  the  Jounul  p.  207 ' 


[June  20.*  L    BnoLTD,    That    the   &«  it   of    tke 

United  State*  ought  to  cuiuiiat  of  a  ra^ 
prem*  legislative,  judiciary,  and  axecutiTe. 

Juue  21.  II.    ^mourtD,  That  the  wgialatttre  ctMuiat  of  two 

branohea. 
III.    Rbboltb),  That  the  memben  of  the  flnt 
branch   of  the   legialatnre   ou^t   to   be 
elected  hy  the  people  of  the  aeveral  atatea, 

June  22.  for  the  term  or  two  yeara;  to  be  paid  out 

of  the  pnUick  treaaury ;  to  receive  an  ade- 
quate compensation  for  their  Mnrices;  to 

June  23.  be  of  the  age  of  twenty-flve  yean  at  least; 

to  be  ineliiBbl**  and  incapule  of  hdding 
any  ofRee  under  the  authority  of  the  United 
Statea  (ezeept  those  peculiarly  belonging 
to  the  functions  of  the  first  branch)  during 
the  term  of  service  of  the  first  branch. 

Jane  25.  IV.    BnoLVBi,  That  the  members  of  the  second 

branch  of  the  legislsture  of  the  United 
Statea  ongbt  to  be  chosen  by  the  individual 

Jane  26.  legUatnrea;  to  be  of  the  age  of  thirty 

years  at  least;  to  hold  their  offices  for  six 
years,  one  third  to  go  out  biennally ;  to  re- 
cdve  a  compensation  for  the  devotion  of 
their  time  to  the  publick  service;  to  be 
ineligible  to  and  incapable  of  holding  any 
oOce,  under  the  authority  of  the  United 
Statea  (except  those  peculiarly  belonging 
to  the  functiona  of  the  second  branch) 
daring  the  term  for  which  they  are 
elected,  and  for  one  year  thereafter. 
.  V.  RisoLVBD,  That  each  branch  ought  to  possess 
the  right  of  originating  acta. 

Postponed  27.       VI.    Bbbolvb),    That    the    national    legislature 

July  16.  ought    to    poaaess    the    legislative    rights 

July  17.  vested  in  Congress  by  the  confederation; 

and  moreover,  to  legislate  in  all  cases  for 
the  general  interests  of  the  union,  and  also 


■  The  word  "  proceedings "  ia  enmed  out  In  the  tranteript  and  "  Rcaoln- 

tions"  i.i  written  above  It. 

'  MadUnn'R  diri-rtion  ii  omitted  in  the  tranecript. 

•The  printed  Journal  eayii,  page  11,  that  theee  23  Reeolutions  are  "col- 
iectod  from  the  proreedinft*  "of  the  convention,  as  they  are  spread  over  the 
JDurniil  from  June  10th  to  July  26th.''  The  date*  in  the  maricin  ihow  when  tha 
respective  Reaolutioni  were  adopted.    They  are  omitted  in  the  tranacript. 

*  The  word  "  to  "  It  here  laserted  Jb  the  trangcript. 


834      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


in  those  to  which  the  states  are  separate!; 
inccHnpetent,  or  in  which  the  harmony  of 
the  United  States  may  be  interrupted  by 
the  exercise  of  individual  legislation. 
VII.  Rbsolvxd,  That  the  legislative  acts  of  the 
United  States,  made  by  virtue  and  in  pur- 
suance of  the  articles  of  union,  and  all 
treaties  made  and  ratified  under  the  au- 
thority of  the  United  States,  shall  be  the 
supreme  law  of  the  respective  states,  as  far 
as  those  acts  or  treaties  shall  relate  to  the 
said  states,  or  their  citizens  and  inhabitants; 
and  that  the  judiciaries  of  the  several 
states  shall  be  bound  thereby  in  their  deci- 
sions, any  thing  in  the  respective  laws  of 
the  individual  states  to  the  contrary,  not- 
withstanding. 
16L  Vin.    Bbsolved,  That  in  the  original  formation  of 

the  legislature  of  the  United  States,  the 
first  branch  thereof  shall  consist  of  sixty- 
five  members;  of  which  number 

New  Hampshire  shall  send  three, 

Massachusetts  .       .  eight, 

Rhode  Is!ap<^     .       .       .  one, 

Connecticut       .        .       .  five. 

New  York   ....  six. 

New  Jersey       .       .       .  four, 

Pennsylvania      .       .       .  eight, 

Delaware     ....  one, 

Maryland    ....  six, 

Virginia      ....  ten. 

North  Carolina         .       .  five. 

South   Carolina  .  five, 

Georgia       ....  three. 

Bat  as  the  present  situation  of  the  states 
may  probably  alter  in  the  number  of  their 
inhabitants,  the  legislature  of  the  United 
States  shall  be  authorized,  from  time  to 
time,  to  apportion  the  number  of  repre- 
sentatives ;  and  in  case  any  of  the  states 
shall  hereafter  be  divided,  or  enlarged  by 
addition  of  territory,  or  any  two  or  more 
states  united,  or  any  new  states  created 
within  the  limits  of  the  United  States,  the 
legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  pos- 
sess authority  to  regulate  the  number  of 
representatives,  in  any  of  the  foregoing 
cases,  upon  the  principle  of  their  number 
of  inhabitants  according  to  the  provisions 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAY,  JULY  26,  1787 


335 


July  26. 


July  21. 


hereafter    mentioned,    namely — ^Provided 
always,  that  representation   ought  to  be 
proportioned  according  >  to  direct  taxation. 
And  in  order  to  ascertain  the  alteration  in 
the  direct  taxation,  which  may  be  required 
from  time  to  time  by  the  changes  in  the 
relative  circumstances  of  the  states — 
IX.    Rbsolvxd,  That  a  census  be  taken  within  six 
years  from  the  first  meeting  of  the  legis- 
Irtnr  j  of  the  United  States,  and  once  within 
the  term  of  every  ten  years  afterwards,  of 
all  the  inhabitants  of  the  United  States, 
in  the  manner  and  according  to  the  ratio 
recommended  by  Congress  in  their  resolu- 
tion of  April  18,  1783 ;  and  that  the  legis- 
lature of  the  United  States  {.hall  propor- 
tion the  direct  taxation  accordingly. 
X.    Bbsolvxd,  That  all  bills  for  raising  or  appro- 
priating money,  and  for  fixing  the  salaries 
of  the  oflScers  of  the  government  of  tiie 
United  States,  shall  originate  in  the  first 
branch  of  the  legislature  of  the  United 
Stat<^,  and  shall  not  be  altered  or  amended 
by  the  second  branch;  and  that  no  money 
■hall  be  drawn  from  the  pablick  treastuy, 
but  in  pursuance  of  appropriations  to  be 
originated  by  the  first  branch. 
XI.    BnoLVBD,  That  in  the  second  branch  of  the 
legislature  of  the  United  States,  each  state 
■hall  have  an  equal  vote. 
XIL    RisoLvxD,  That  a  national  executive  be  in- 
■titntsd,  to  conaiat  of  a  single  person;  to 
be  ehosen  by  the  national  le^slature,  for 
the  term  of  seven  years ;  to  be  ineligible  a 
■econd  time;  with  power  to  carry  into  ex- 
ecution the  national  laws;  to  appoint  to 
offices  in  cases  not  otherwise  provided  for; 
to  be  removable  on  impeachment,  and  con- 
viction of  mal-practice  or  neglect  of  duty; 
to  receive  a  fixed  compensation  for  the 
dervotdon  of  his  time  to  *  publick  service;  to 
be  paid  out  of  the  publick  treasury. 
XIII.    REaoLrsD,  That  the  national  executive  shall 
have  a  ri^t  to  negative  any  legislative  airt, 
which  shall  not  be  afterwards  passed,  un- 
less by  two  third  parts  of  each  branch  of 
the  national  legislature. 


'  The  word  "  acrordinfr "  ii  omitted  in  the  timnwript. 
'  The  word  "  the  "  it  hw*  iuMrtcd  ia  the  truiieript. 


18. 

July  21. 

18. 


XIV. 


XV. 
XVI. 

xvn. 


336      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

RtBOLVED,  That  a  national  judiciaiy  be  ntab- 
lished,  to  conBiat  of  one  supreme  tribunal, 
the  judges  of  which  shall  be  appointed  by 
the  second  branch  of  the  national  legisla- 
ture; to  hold  their  ofBces  during  good  be- 
haTionr;  to  receive  punctually,  at  stated 
times,  a  fixed  compensation  for  their  serv- 
ices, in  which  no  diminution  shall  be  made, 
so  as  to  affect  the  persons  actually  in  office 
at  the  time  of  such  diminution. 
Resolved,  That  the  national  legislature  be 

empowered  to  appoint  inferior  tribunals. 
Rbsolvxd,    That    the    jurisdiction    of    the 
nationd  judiciary  shall  extend  to  cases 
arising  under  laws  passed  by  the  general 
legislature ;  and  to  such  other  questions  as 
involve  the  national  peace  and  harmony. 
RxsoLVXD,  That  provision  ought  to  be  made 
for  the  admission  of  states  lawfully  arising 
within  the  limits  of  the  United  States, 
whether  from  a  voluntary  junction  of  gov- 
ernment and  territory,  or  otherwise,  with 
the  consent  of  a  number  of  voices  in  the 
national  legislature  less  than  the  whole. 
Rbsolvbd,  That  a  republican  form  of  govern- 
ment shall  be  guarantied  to  each  state;  and 
that  each  state  shall  be  protected  against 
foreign  and  dwnestick  violence. 
Rbbolvkd,  That  provision  ought  to  be  made 
for  the  amendment  of  the  articles  of  union, 
whensoever  it  shall  seem  necessary. 
Rbolvxd,  That  the  legislatiTe,  executive,  and 
judiciary  powers,  within  the  seiveral  states, 
and  of  the  national  government,  ou^t  to 
be  bound,  by  oath,  to  support  the  articles 
of  union. 
Rbsolvxd,  That  the  amendments  which  shall 
be  offered  to  the  confederation  by  the  con- 
Tention  ought,  at  a  proper  time  or  times 
after  the  approbation  of  Congress,  to  be 
•nbmitted  to  an  assembly  or  assemblies  of 
representatives,  recommended  by  the  sev- 
eral legislatures,  to  be  expressly  chosen  by 
the  people  to  consider  and  decide  thereon. 
RraoLVED,  That  the  representation  in  the  sec- 
ond branch  of  the  legislature  of  the  United 
States »  consist  of  two  members  from  each 
state,  who  shall  vote  per  capita. 


XVIII. 

XIX. 
XX. 

XXL 


xxn. 


•  The  word  "  shall  "  it  here  iuerted  ia  the  tnuiaeript 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  6,  1787 


337 


26.  XXIII.  Besolved,  That  it  be  an  instruction  to  the 
committee,  to  whom  were  referred  the  pro- 
ceedings of  the  convention  for  the  eatab> 
lishment  of  a  national  government,  to  t»- 
eeive  a  clause  or  clauses,  requiring  certain 
qualifications  of  property  and  citizenship, 
in  the  United  States,  for  the  executive,  the 
judiciary,  and  the  members  of  both 
branches  of  the  legislature  of  the  United 
States.] 

With  the  above  resolutions  were  referred  the  propositions  offered 
by  Mt  C.  Pinckney  on  the  291''  of  May,  &  by  Mr  Patterson  on  the 
15*  of  June.* 


MoMDAT  August  6T"    In  Convention 

W  John  Francis  Mercer  from  Maryland  took  his  seat. 
M^  RuTUDOE  delivered  in  the  Report  of  the  Committee  of  detafl 
88  follows :  a  printed  copy  being  at  the  same  time  furnished  to  each 

member:' 

"  We  the  people  of  the  States  of  New  Hampshire,  Massachussetts, 
Rhode-Island  and  Providence  Plantations,  Connecticut,  New- York, 
New-Jersey,  Pennqrlvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North- 
Carolina,  South-Carolina,  and  Georgia,  do  ordain,  declare,  and 
establish  the  following  Constitution  for  the  Government  of  Cor- 
selves  and  our  Posterity. 

AsncLE  I 

The  stile  of  the  Govenunent  shall  be,  "The  United  States  of 
America  " 

•II 

The  Government  shall  consist  of  supreme  legislative,  executive; 
and  judicial  powers. 

'  The  word  "  Adjourned  "  ia  here  taaertcd  In  the  timnwript. 

'Mkdiaon's  printed  copy  b  marked:  "As  Reported  by  Com*  of  Detail  vis 
of  Ave.  Aug.  6.  1787."  It  la  a  large  folio  of  aaren  pasaa.  In  the  anumeratioa 
of  the  Articlea  by  a  niiq>rint  VI.  waa  repeated,  and  the  alterationa  in  Article  VIL 
nnd  surrt^ing  articles  were  made  by  Madiaon.  In  Sec.  11  of  Article  VI.,  aa 
it  wag  printed,  it  appeared :  "  The  enacting  atile  of  the  lawe  of  th«  United  States 
fhall  be.  'Be  it  enacted,  and  it  ia  hereby  enacted  by  the  Honae  of  Bepre- 
fintativea,  and  I7  the  Senate  of  the  United  Statea,  in  Congreaa  asaembled.'" 
which  Madiaon  alterid  to  read:  "The  enacting  atile  of  the  lawa  of  the  United 
States  shall  be.  'Be  it  enacted  by  the  Senate  ft  repreaentativea  in  Congreaa 
aaaembled.'"  The  printed  copy  among  the  Madiaon  papera  is  a  duplicate  of 
the  ropy  filed  by  General  Waahington  with  the  papera  of  the  Conatitntion,  Sad 
Sec.  1 1  is  there  given  as  actually  printed. 

Madison  accurately  tranacribed  the  report  for  hia  notea  and  it  ie  thia  copy 
which  is  used  in  the  text. 

'  The  word  "  Article "  is  here  inaerted  in  the  tranacript 


338      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

*in 

The  legislative  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Congreas,  to  consist 
of  two  separate  and  distinct  bodies  of  men,  a  Houiie  of  Representa- 
tives  and  a  Senate;  each  of  which  shall  in  all  cases  have  a  negative 
on  the  other.  The  Legislature  shall  meet  on  the  first  Monday  in 
December*  every  year. 


IV 

Sect.  1.  The  members  of  the  House  of  Representatives  shall  be 
chosen  every  sec  .d  year,  by  the  people  of  the  several  States  com- 
prehended within  this  Union.  The  qualifications  of  the  electors  shall 
be  the  same,  from  time  to  time,  as  those  of  the  electors  in  the  several 
States,  of  the  most  numerous  branch  of  their  own  legislatures. 

Sect.  2.  Everj-  member  of  the  House  of  Representatives  shall  be 
of  the  age  of  twenty  five  years  at  least;  shall  have  been  a  citizen 
in  the  United  States  for  at  least  three  years  before  his  election;  and 
shall  be,  at  the  time  of  his  election,  a  resident  of  the  State  in  which 
he  shall  be  chosen. 

Sect.  3.  The  House  of  Representatives  shall,  at  its  first  forma> 
tion,  and  until  the  number  of  citizens  and  inhabitants  shall  be  taken 
in  the  manner  Lrein  after  described,  consist  of  sixty  five  Members,  of 
whom  three  shall  be  chosen  in  New-Hampshire,  eight  in  Maasachna- 
setts,  one  in  Rhode-Island  and  Providence  Plantations,  five  in  Con- 
necticut, six  in  New- York,  four  in  New-Jersey,  eight  in  Pennsyl- 
vania, one  in  Delaware,  six  in  Maryland,  ten  in  Virginia,  five  in 
North-Carolina,  five  in  South-Carolina,  and  three  in  Georgia. 

Sect.  4.  As  the  proportions  of  numbers  in  different  States  will 
alter  from  time  to  time;  as  some  of  the  States  may  hereafter  be 
divided ;  as  others  may  be  enlarged  by  addition  of  territory ;  as  two 
or  more  States  may  be  united ;  as  new  States  will  be  erected  within 
the  limits  of  the  United  States,  the  Legislature  shall,  in  each  of 
these  eases,  regulate  the  number  of  representatives  by  the  number  of 
inhabitants,  according  to  the  provisions  herein  after  made,  at  the 
rate  of  one  for  every  forty  thousand. 

Sect.  5.  All  bills  for  raising  or  appropriating  money,  and  for 
fixing  the  salaries  ot  the  ofiicers  of  Government,  shall  originate  in 
the  House  of  Representatives,  and  shall  not  be  altered  or  amended 
by  the  Senate.  No  money  shall  be  drawn  from  the  Public  Treasury, 
but  in  pursuance  of  appropriations  that  shall  originate  in  the  House 
of  Representatives. 

Sect.  6.  The  House  of  Representatives  shall  have  the  sole  power 
of  impeachment.    It  shall  choose  its  Speaker  and  other  officers. 

Sect.  7.  Vacancies  in  the  House  of  Representatives  shall  be  sup- 
plied by  writs  of  election  from  the  executive  authority  of  the  State, 
in  the  representation  from  which  it  *  shall  happen. 

•The  word  "Artirlp"  ig  here  inserted  in  the  tranicrlpt. 
•  The  word  "  in  "  is  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 

"  The  word  "  it "  ig  crossed  out  and  the  word  "  they  "  is  written  above  it  in 
the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  6,  1287 


339 


Is.'. 


Sect  1.  The  Senate  of  the  United  States  shall  be  chosen  by  the 
Legislatures  of  the  several  States.  Each  Legislature  shall  chuse  two 
members.  Vacancies  may  be  supplied  by  the  Executive  until  tiit 
next  meeting  of  the  Legulature.    Each  member  shall  have  one  vote. 

Sect.  2.  The  Senators  shall  be  chosen  for  six  years ;  but  imme- 
diately after  the  first  election  they  shall  be  divided,  by  lot,  into 
three  classes,  as  nearly  as  may  be,  numbered  one,  two  and  three.  The 
seats  of  the  members  of  the  first  class  shall  be  vacated  at  the  expira- 
tion of  the  second  year,  of  the  second  class  at  the  expiration  of  the 
fourth  year,  of  the  third  class  at  the  expiration  of  the  sixth  year,  so 
that  a  third  part  of  the  members  may  be  chosen  every  second  year. 

Sect.  3.  Every  member  of  the  Senate  shall  be  of  the  age  of 
thirty  years  at  least;  shall  have  been  a  citizen  in  the  United  States 
fo"  at  least  four  years  before  his  election ;  and  AaU  be,  at  the  time 
o!  his  election,  a  resident  of  the  State  for  which  he  shall  be  chosen. 

Sect.  4.  The  Senate  shall  chuse  its  own  President  and  other 
ofiScers. 

»VI 

Sect.  1.  The  times  and  places  and  manner  of  holding  the  elec- 
tions of  the  members  of  each  House  shall  be  prescribed  by  the  Legis- 
lature of  each  State;  but  their  provisions  concerning  them  may,  at 
any  time,  be  altered  by  the  Legislature  of  the  United  States. 

Sect.  2.  The  Legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  have  author- 
ity to  establish  such  uniform  qualific««'  }n8  of  the  members  of  each 
House,  with  regard  to  property,  as  to  the  said  Legislature  shall  seem 
expedient. 

Sect.  3.  In  each  House  a  majority  of  the  members  shall  con- 
stitute a  quorum  to  do  business;  but  a  smaller  number  may  adjourn 
from  day  to  day. 

Sect.  4.  Each  House  shall  be  the  judge  of  the  elections,  returns 
and  qualifications  of  its  own  members. 

Sect.  5.  Freedom  of  speech  and  debate  in  the  Legislature  shall 
not  be  impeached  or  questioned  in  any  Court  or  place  out  of  the 
Legislature;  and  the  members  of  each  House  shall,  in  all  cases,  ex- 
cept treason  felony  and  breach  of  the  peace,  be  privileged  from 
arrest  during  their  attendance  at  Congress,  and  in  going  to  and 
returning  from  it. 

Sect.  6.  Each  House  may  determine  the  rules  of  its  proceedings ; 
may  punish  its  members  for  disorderly  behaviour;  and  may  expel 
a  member. 

Sect.  7.  The  House  of  Representatives,  and  the  Senate,  when  it 
shall  he  acting  in  a  legislative  capacity,  shall  keep  a  journal  of  their 
proceedings,  and  shall,  from  time  to  time,  publish  them :  and  the  yeas 
and  nays  of  the  members  of  each  House,  on  any  question,  shall  at 
the  desire  of  one-fifth  part  of  the  members  present,  be  entered  on 
the  journal. 

*  The  word  "  Article  "  ia  here  inwrted  in  the  transcript. 


840      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Sect.  8.  Neither  House,  without  the  consent  of  the  other,  shall 
adjourn  for  more  than  three  days,  nor  to  any  other  place  than  that 
at  which  the  two  Houses  are  sitting.  But  this  regulation  shall  not 
extend  to  the  Senate,  when  it  shall  exercise  the  powers  mentioned 
in  the  article. 

Sect.  9.  The  members  of  each  House  shall  be  ineligible  to,  and 
incapable  of  holding  any  ofBce  under  the  authority  of  the  United 
States,  during  the  time  for  which  they  shall  respectively  be  elected: 
and  the  members  of  the  Senate  shall  be  ineligible  to,  and  incapable 
of  holding  any  such  ofBce  for  one  year  afterwards. 

Sect.  10.  The  members  of  each  House  shall  receive  a  compensa- 
tion for  their  services,  to  be  ascertained  and  paid  by  the  State,  in 
which  they  shall  be  chosen. 

^Sect  11.  The  enacting  stile  of  the  laws  of  the  United  Statea 
shall  be.  "Be  it  enacted  by  the  Senate  and  Representatives  in  Con- 
gress assembled." 

Sect.  12.  Each  House  shall  possess  the  right  of  originating  bills, 
except  in  the  cases  beforementioned. 

Sect.  13.  Every  bill,  which  shall  have  passed  the  House  of  Rep- 
resentatives and  the  Senate,  shall,  before  it  become '  a  law,  be  pre- 
sented to  the  President  of  the  United  States  for  his  revision:  if, 
upon  such  revision,  he  approve  of  it,  he  shall  signify  his  approbation 
by  signing  it:  Bat  if,  upon  such  revision,  it  shall  appear  to  him 
improper  for  being  passed  into  a  law,  he  shall  return  it,  together 
with  his  objections  against  it,  to  that  House  in  which  it  shall  have 
originated,  who  shall  enter  the  objections  at  large  on  their  journal 
and  proceed  to  r«?conHider  the  bill.  Bnt  if  after  such  reconsideration, 
two  thirds  of  that  House  shall,  notwithstanding  the  objections  of  the 
President,  agree  to  pass  it,  it  shall  together  with  his  objections,  be 
sent  to  the  other  House,  by  which  it  shall  likewise  be  reconsidered, 
and  if  approved  by  two  thirds  of  the  other  House  also,  it  shall  be- 
come a  law.  But  in  all  such  cases,  the  votes  of  both  Houses  shall 
be  determined  by  yeas  and  nays;  and  the  names  of  the  persons 
voting  for  or  against  the  bill  shdl  be  entered  on  the  journal  of  each 
House  respectively.  If  any  bill  shall  not  be  returned  by  the  Preo- 
dent  within  seven  days  after  it  shall  have  been  presented  to  him,  it 
shall  be  a  law,  unless  the  legislature,  by  their  adjournment,  prevent 
its  return ;  in  which  case  it  shall  not  be  a  law. 

»VII 

Sect.  1,  The  Legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  have  the 
power  tn  lay  and  collect  taxes,  duties,  imposts  and  excises ; 

To  regulate  commerce  with  foreign  nations,  and  among  the  sev- 
eral States: 

To  establish  an  uniform  rule  of  naturalixation  throughout  the 
United  States; 


'Section   11   is  copied  in  the  transcript  as  originally  printed.     See  foot- 
note '  on  p.  337. 

'  The  word  "  becomes  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  become." 
•  The  word  '•  Article  "  is  here  inserted  In  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  AUGUST  6,  1787 


341 


To  coin  money ; 

To  regulate  the  value  of  foreign  coin; 
To  fix  the  standard  of  weights  and  measures ; 
To  establish  Post-ofiBces;  ,    .     tt    *  j 

To  borrow  money,  and  emit  bills  on  the  credit  of  the  Umtea 
States ; 

To  appoint  a  Treasurer  by  ballot ; 
To  constitute  tribunals  inferior  to  the  Supreme  Court; 
To  make  rules  concerning  captures  on  land  and  water ; 
To  declare  the  law  and  punishment  of  piracies  and  felonies  com- 
mitted on  the  high  seas,  and  the  punishment  of  counterfeiting  the 
coin  of  the  United  States,  and  of  offences  against  the  law  of  nations ; 
To  subdue  a  rebellion  in  any  State,  on  the  application  of  its 
legislature ; 
To  make  war; 
To  raise  armies; 
To  build  and  equip  fleets ; 

To  call  forth  the  aid  of  the  militia,  in  order  to  execute  the  laws 
of  the  Union,  enforce  treaties,  suppress  insurrections,  and  repel 
invasions ;  ,  , 

And  to  make  all  laws  that  shall  be  necessary  and  proper  for 
carrying  into  execution  the  foregoing  powers,  and  all  other  powers 
vested,  by  this  Constitution,  in  the  government  of  the  United  States, 
or  in  any  department  or  officer*  thereof; 

Seot.  2.  Treason  against  the  United  States  shall  consist  only  in 
levjing  war  against  the  United  States,  or  any  of  them;  and  in  adher- 
ing to  the  enemies  of  the  United  States,  or  any  of  them.  The  Legis- 
lature of  the  United  States  shall  have  power  to  declare  the  punish- 
ment of  treason.  No  person  shall  be  convicted  of  treason,  unless  on 
the  testimony  of  two  witnesses.  No  attainder  of  treason  shall  work 
oomiption  of  blood,  nor  forfeiture,  except  during  the  life  of  the  per- 
son attainted. 

Sect.  3.  The  proportions  of  direct  taxation  shall  be  regulated 
by  the  whole  number  of  white  and  other  free  citizens  and  inhabitants, 
of  every  age,  sex  and  condition,  including  those  bound  to  servitude 
for  a  term  of  years,  and  three  fifths  of  all  other  persons  not  com- 
prehended in  the  foregoing  description,  (except  Indians  not  paying 
taxes)  which  numbpr  shall,  within  six  years  after  the  first  meeting  of 
the  Legislature,  and  within  the  term  of  every  ten  years  afterwards, 
be  taken  in  such »  manner  as  the  said  Legislature  shall  direct 

Sect.  4.  No  tax  or  duty  shall  be  laid  by  the  Legislature  on 
articles  exported  from  any  State ;  nor  on  the  migration  or  im^rta- 
tion  of  such  persons  as  the  several  States  shall  think  proper  to  admit; 
nor  shall  ouch  migration  or  importation  be  prohibited. 

Sect.  5.  No  capitation  tax  shall  be  laid,  unless  in  proportion  to 
the  Census  hereinbefore  directed  to  be  taken. 

Sect.  6.  No  navigation  act  shall  be  passed  without  the  assent 
of  two  thirds  of  the  members  present  in  the  each  House. 

'  The  letter  "  r  "  U  gtrieken  from  the  word  "  officer  "  in  the  tnuiMTipt. 

'  The  word  "  k  "  U  here  inicrted  in  the  traiucript.  / 


342      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 
Sect.  7.    The  United  States  shall  not  grant  any  title  of  Nobility. 

'VIII 

The  Acts  of  the  Legislature  of  the  United  States  made  in  pursuance 
of  this  Constitution,  and  all  treaties  made  under  the  authority  of 
the  United  States  shall  be  the  supreme  law  of  the  several  States, 
and  of  their  citizens  and  inhabitants;  and  the  judges  in  the  several 
States  shall  be  bound  thereby  in  their  decisions;  any  thing  in  the 
Constitutions  or  laws  of  the  several  States  to  the  contrary  not- 
withstanding. 

«IX 

Sect  1.  The  Senate  of  the  United  States  shall  have  power  to 
make  treaties,  and  to  appoint  Ambassadors,  and  Judges  of  the  Su- 
preme Court. 

Sect.  2.  In  all  disputes  and  controversies  now  subsisting,  or  that 
may  hereafter  subsist  between  two  or  more  States,  respecting  juris- 
diction  or  territory,  the  Senate  shall  possess  the  following  powers. 
Whenever  the  Legislature,  or  the  Executive  authority,  or  lawful 
agent  of  any  State,  in  controversy  with  another,  shall  by  memorial  to 
the  Senate,  state  the  matter  in  question,  and  apply  for  a  hearing; 
notice  of  such  memorial  and  application  shall  be  given  by  order  of 
the  Senate,  to  the  Legislature  or  the  Executive  authority  of  the  other 
State  in  Controversy,  The  Senate  shall  also  assign  a  day  for  the 
appearance  of  the  parties,  by  their  agents,  before  the  *  House.  The 
Agents  shall  be  directed  to  appoint,  by  joint  consent,  commissioners 
or  judges  to  constitute  a  Court  for  hearing  and  determining  the 
matter  in  question.  But  if  the  Agents  cannot  agree,  the  Senate  shall 
name  three  persons  out  of  each  of  the  several  States;  and  from  the 
list  of  such  persons  each  party  shall  alternately  strike  out  one,  until 
the  number  shall  be  reduced  to  thirteen ;  and  from  that  number  not 
less  than  seven  nor  more  than  nine  names,  as  the  Senate  shall  direct, 
shall  in  their  presence,  be  drawn  out  by  lot ;  and  the  persons  whose 
names  shall  be  so  drawn,  or  any  five  of  them  shall  be  commissioner* 
or  Judges  to  hear  and  finally  determine  the  controversy ;  provided  a 
majority  of  the  Judges,  who  shall  hear  the  cause,  agree  in  the  de- 
termination. If  either  party  shall  neglevt  to  attend  at  the  day 
assigned,  without  shewing  sufficient  reasons  for  not  attending,  or 
being  present  shall  refuse  to  strike,  the  Senate  shall  proceed  to  nomi- 
nate three  persons  out  of  each  State,  and  the  Clerk  of  the  Senate  diall 
strike  in  behalf  of  the  party  absent  or  refusing.  If  any  of  the 
parties  shall  refuse  to  sahTr^li  to  the  authority  of  such  Court;  or  shall 
not  appear  to  prosecute  or  defend  their  claim  or  cause,  the  Court 
shall  nevertheless  proceed  to  pronounce  judgment.  The  judgment 
shall  be  final  and  conclusive.  The  proceedings  shall  be  transmitted 
to  the  President  of  the  Senate,  and  shall  be  lodged  among  the  public 
records,  for  the  security  of  the  parties  concerned.    Every  Commia- 

The  word  "  Article  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transoript. 
"  The  word  "  the  "  is  changed  to  "  that "  in  the  transcript 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  6,  1787 


348 


sioner  shall,  before  he  sit  in  judgment,  t«ke  an  oath,  to  be  admin- 
iitred  by  one  of  Uie  Judges  of  the  Supreme  or  Superior  Court  of  the 
State  where  the  cause  shall  be  tried,  "well  and  truly  to  hear  and 
determine  the  matter  in  question  according  to  the  best  of  his  judg- 
ment, without  favor,  affection,  or  hope  of  reward."* 

Sect.  3.  All  controversiea  concerning  lands  claimed  under  dif- 
ferent grants  of  two  or  more  States,  whose  jurisdictiona,  as  they 
respect  such  landa  shall  have  been  decided  or  adjusted  sobsequent  ^ 
to  such  grants,  or  any  of  them,  shall,  on  application  to  the  Senate,  be 
finally  determined,  as  near  as  may  be,  in  the  same  manner  as  is  before 
prescribed  for  deciding  controversies  between  different  State*. 


Sect.  1.  The  Executive  Power  of  the  United  States  shall  be  vested 
in  a  single  person.  His  stile  shall  be,  "The  President  of  the  United 
States  of  America;"  and  his  title  shall  be,  "His  Excellency."  He 
shall  be  elected  by  ballot  by  the  Legislature.  He  shall  hold  his  office 
during  the  term  of  seven  years;  bat  shall  not  be  elected  a  second 
time. 

Sect.  2.  He  shall,  from  time  to  time,  give  information  to  the 
Legislature,  of  the  state  of  the  Union :  he  may  recommend  to  their 
consideration  such  measures  as  he  shall  judge  necessary,  and  expe- 
dient :  he  may  convene  them  on  extraordinary  occasions.  In  case  of 
disagreement  between  the  two  Houses,  with  regard  to  the  time  of 
adjournment,  he  may  adjourn  them  to  such  time  as  he  thinks  proper  i 
he  shall  take  care  that  the  laws  of  the  United  States  be.  duly  and 
faithfully  executed:  he  shall  commission  all  the  officers  of  the 
United  States;  and  shall  appoint  officers  in  all  cases  not  otherwise 
provided  for  by  this  Constitution.  He  shall  receive  Ambassadors, 
and  may  correspond  with  the  supreme  Executives  of  the  several 
States.  He  shall  have  power  to  grant  reprieves  and  pardons;  but  his 
pardon  shall  not  be  pleadable  in  bar  of  an  impeachment.  He  shall 
be  commander  in  chief  of  the  Army  and  Navy  of  the  United  States, 
and  of  the  Militia  of  the  several  States.  He  shall,  at  stated  times, 
receive  for  his  services,  a  compensation,  which  shall  neither  be  in- 
creased nor  diminished  during  his  continuance  in  office.  Before  he 
shall  enter  on  the  duties  of  hia  department,  he  shall  take  the  follow- 
ing oath  or  affirmation,  "I solemnly  swear,  (or  affirm)  that 

that  •  I  will  faithfully  execute  the  office  of  President  of  the  United 
States  of  America."  He  shall  be  removed  from  his  office  on  impeach- 
ment by  the  House  of  Repreeentatives,  and  conviction  in  the  supreme 
Court,  of  treason,  bribery,  or  corruption.  In  case  of  his  removal 
as  aforesaid,  death,  resignation,  or  disability  to  discharge  the  powers 
and  duties  of  his  office,  the  President  of  the  Senate  shall  exercise 
those  powers  and  duties,  until  another  President  of  the  United  States 
be  chosen,  or  until  the  disabUity  of  the  President  be  removed. 

'  The  syllable  "  ly  "  <■  added  In  the  transcript  to  the  word  "  rahMquent." 
'  The  word  "  Article  "  !■  here  inaerted  in  the  tranacript 
•  The  word  "  that "  is  omitted  in  the  tranicript. 


344      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


'XI 

Sect  1.  The  Judicial  Power  of  the  United  State*  ihall  be  yerted 
in  one  Supreme  Court,  and  in  luuh  inferior  Courta  aa  ihall,  when 
neeeaaary,  from  time  to  time,  be  conatituted  by  the  Legialatnre  of 
the  United  Statea. 

Sect.  2.  The  Judgea  of  the  Supreme  Court,  and  of  the  Inferior 
Courta,  ahall  hold  their  offieea  during  good  behaviour.  Thtiy  diall, 
at  atated  timea,  receive  for  their  aervicea,  a  compenaation,  which  ahall 
not  be  diminiahed  during  their  continuance  in  office. 

Sect.  3.  The  Juriadiction  of  the  Supreme  Court  ahall  extend  to 
all  caaea  ariaing  under  laws  paaaed  bjr  the  Legialature  of  the  United 
Statea;  to  all  caaea  affecting  Ambaaaadora,  other  Public  Miniatera  and 
Conaula ;  to  the  trial  of  impeachmenta  of  officers  of  the  United  State* ; 
to  all  caaea  of  Admiralty  and  maritime  juriadiction ;  to  controveniea 
between  two  or  more  Statea,  (except  auch  aa  ahall  regard  Territory 
or  Jurisdiction)  between  a  State  and  Citizena  of  another  State,  be- 
tween Citizena  of  different  States,  and  between  a  State  or  the  Citi- 
zens thereof  and  foreign  States,  citizena  or  aubjects.  In  caaea  of 
impeachment,  caaes  affecting  Ambasaadors,  other  Public  Miniatera 
and  Consuls,  and  thoae  in  which  a  State  ahall  be  party,  tiiia  juriadic- 
tion shall  be  original.  In  all  the  other  cases  beforementioned,  it  shall 
be  appellate,  with  such  exceptions  and  under  such  regulationa  aa  the 
Legislature  ahall  make.  The  Legislature  may  assign  any  part  of  the 
jurisdiction  abovementioned  (except  the  trial  of  the  President  of 
the  United  States)  in  the  manner,  and  under  the  limitationa  which 
it  shall  think  proper,  to  such  Inferior  Courts,  aa  it  shall  conatitate 
from  time  to  time. 

Sect.  4.  The  trial  of  all  criminal  offencea  (except  in  eases  of 
impeachmenta)  shall  be  in  the  State  where  they  ahall  be  committed; 
and  shall  be  by  Jury. 

Sect.  5.  Judgment,  in  caaea  of  Impeachment,  ahall  not  extend 
further  than  to  removal  from  office,  and  disqualification  to  hold  and 
enjoy  any  office  of  honour,  trust  or  profit,  under  the  United  Statea. 
But  the  party  convicted  shall,  nevertheless  be  liable  and  subject  to 
indictment,  trial,  judgment  and  punishment  according  to  law. 

>XII 

No  State  shall  coin  money;  nor  grant  letters  of  marque  and  ne- 
prisal;  nor  enter  into  any  Treaty,  alliance,  or  confederation:  nor 
grant  any  title  of  Nobility. 

'XIII 

No  State,  without  the  consent  of  the  Lefrislature  of  the  United 
States,  shall  emit  bills  of  credit,  or  make  any  thing  but  specie  a 
tender  in  payment  of  debts;  nor  lay  imposts  or  duties  on  imports; 
nor  keep  troops  or  ships  of  war  in  time  of  peace ;  nor  enter  into  any 
agreement  or  compact  with  another  State,  or  with  any  foreign  power; 

'  The  word  "  Article  »  is  hart  iaserted  in  the  traiucript. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  AUGUST  6,  1787 


845 


nur  engage  in  any  war,  uf  Jen  it  ahall  be  aetiully  invaded  by  enemiei, 
ur  tLe  danger  uf  invaaion  be  ao  iuiioiueat,  aa  uut  to  admit  of  delay, 
until  the  Lei'jlature  of  the  United  titatea  can  be  eooaultad. 

The  Citisena  of  each  State  ahall  be  entitled  to  all  priTilegw  and 
immunitiea  of  citiiena  in  the  aereral  Statca. 

«XV 
Any  penon  charged  with  treaaon,  felony  or  high  misdemeanor  in 
aiiv  State,  who  ahaO  ii<^  from  joitice,  and  ahall  be  found  in  any 
other  State,  shall,  on  d'^mand  of  the  Ezecative  power  of  the  State 
from  which  he  fled,  be  delivered  up  and  removed  to  the  State  having 
jurisdiction  of  the  oBence. 

»XVI 

Full  faith  shall  be  given  in  eaeh  Sute  to  the  acta  of  the  Legia- 
laturcs,  and  t^.  the  recorda  and  judicial  proceedings  of  the  Courts 
and  magistrates  of  eveiy  other  State. 

»xvn 

New  States  lawfully  constituted  or  estaUiahed  within  the  limits  of 
the  United  States  may  be  admitted,  by  the  Legialature,  into  this 
Government;  but  to  such  admission  the  consent  of  two  thirds  of 
the  members  present  in  each  House  shall  be  necessary.  If  a  new 
State  shall  arise  within  the  limits  of  any  of  the  present  Statea,  the 
consent  of  the  Legislaturea  of  such  Statea  ahall  be  also  necessary  to 
its  admission.  If  the  admission  be  consented  to,  the  new  Statea  shall 
be  admitted  on  the  same  terms  with  the  original  States.  But  the 
Legislature  may  make  conditions  with  the  new  States,  concerning  the 
public  debt  which  diall  be  then  subsisting. 

»xvm 

The  United  States  shall  guaranty  to  each  State  a  Republican  form 
of  Government;  and  shall  protett  each  State  against  foreign  inva- 
sions, and,  on  the  application  of  ita  L^pslature,  against  domestic 
violence. 

»XIX 

On  the  application  of  the  Legislatures  of  two  thirds  of  the  Stat  - 
in  the  Union,  for  an  amendment  of  this  Constitution,  the  Legislature 
of  the  United  States  shall  call  a  Convention  for  that  purpose. 

»XX 

The  members  of  the  Legislatures,  and  the  Executive  an  i  Judicial 
offi'-'Ts  of  the  United  States,  and  of  the  several  States,  shall  be  bound 
by  oath  to  support  this  Constitution. 

>  The  word  "  Artkle  "  is  here  Inserted  {b  the  transcript. 


34C     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


SUtet  shall  U 


>XZI 

The  ratifleatioot  of  the  Cooventiona  of 
•nfficient  for  organising  this  Constitution. 

*XXII 

This  Constitution  shall  be  laid  before  the  United  States  in  Con- 
gress assembled,  for  their  approbation;  and  it  is  the  opinion  of  this 
Convention,  that  it  nhould  be  afterwards  submitted  to  a  Convention 
chosen,'  under  the  recommendation  of  its  legislature,  in  order  to 
receive  the  ratification  of  such  Convention. 

>ZXIII 

To  introduce  this  government,  it  is  the  opinion  of  this  Convention, 
that  each  assenting  Convention  should  notify  its  assent  and  ratifica- 
tion to  the  United  Stateo  in  Congresa  assembled ;  that  Congress,  after 
receiving  the  assent  and  ratification  of  the  Conventions  of 
States,  sAould  appoint  and  publish  a  day,  as  early  as  may  be,  aq,d 
appoint  a  place  for  commencing  proceedings  under  this  Constitu- 
tion; that  after  such  publication,  the  Legislatures  of  the  several 
States  should  elect  membem  of  the  Senate,  and  direct  the  blection 
of  members  of  the  House  of  Representatives;  and  that  the  members 
of  the  Legislature  should  meet  at  the  time  and  place  aasigned  by 
Congresa,  and  should,  as  soon  as  may  be,  after  their  meeting,  choose 
the  Pmident  of  the  United  States,  and  proceed  to  execute  this 
Constitution." 

A  motion  was  made  to  adjourn  till  Wedneaday,  in  order  to  gin 
leisure  to  examine  the  Report;  which  passed  in  the  negative— 
N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CU  no.  Pt  ay.  Ml  ay.  Virg.  ay.  N.  C.  n«. 
S.  C.  no.» 

The  House  then  adjourn     till  to  morrow  *  11  OC. 


Tedsdat  August  7T"  In  Convxntiom 

The  Report  of  the  Committee  of  detail  being  taken  op, 
M^  PiNKNEY  moved  that  it  be  referred  to  a  Committee  of  the 
whole.    This  was  strongly  opposed  by  Ml  Qhohuh  &  several  others, 
as  likely  to  produce  unnecessary  delay ;  and  was  negatived.    Delaware 
Mary^  &  Virg«  only  being  in  the  affirmative. 


■  The  word  "  Article  "  ia  here  inierted  in  the  tmnirript. 

•  The  phrase  "  in  each  State  "  it  here  inaerted  in  the  tranaeript. 

•In  the  tranaeript  the  vote  reada:  " Pennaylvania.  Maryland,  Virginia, 
^e — 3;  New  Hampshire,  Mataachuaetta,  Connecticut,  North  Carolina,  Sonth 
Carolina,  no— 5." 

'  The  word  "  at "  ia  here  Inaertcd  in  the  tranaeript. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  7,  1787 


347 


The  prpunble  of  the  Beport  wu  affrMd  to  nan.  eon.  So  wtrt 
Art:  1  A  II.' 

Art :  III. '-  *  eonaidered.  Col  Mawm  doubted  the  propriety  of  giv- 
ing each  branch  •  negative  on  the  other  "  in  all  caees."  There  were 
iome  rases  in  which  it  was  he  suppoaed  not  intended  to  be  given  as 
in  the  caae  of  balloting  for  appotntmenta. 

M'  Govt  Monn  moved  to  ioaert  "  legialativa  aeta  "  instead  of 
"aU  cases" 

Mt  WnxJAiMON  2^  him. 

MT  Shemcan.  This  will  restrain  the  operation  of  the  claoae  too 
much.  It  will  particularly  eseladr  j  -ntaal  negative  in  the  case  of 
ballots,  which  he  hoped  would  r  .      i  <c 

Mf  Ohokcm  contended  thi    elt     on*  no".  •  t»,  ^• 
hattot.    If  separate  ballots  sl>:<  i.<l  l>«  >..Mde  /<  >  iL    •  , 
two  branches  should  be  ear.i  f-t  4ii fHi  i'   a  fv  )t  '' 
tention  &  confusion  may  It   i'"     In"*    ir<  jn/.mcn«>' 
in  Mast;  in  the  election  '  '  /^    .  i  o   'Ivtlo    tioortar  • 
the  Executive  of  the  U.  r;  'es.    '<V'ir.',   objc.S'n 
is  that  it  may  deprive  t    ■  '''nat    oi  ?^  Ir  dut-  w  ig).' 


made  by  joint 

sidrnt,  and  the 

«at  delay  eon- 

'tave  been  felt 

•     ompared  with 

J!"  a  joint  baUot 

but  thia  ought 


not  to  prevail  over  the  reap  •(>)  da'  to  «,!-  pcijiic  irau  loility  A  wdfare. 

M(  Wilson  waa  for  a  jcjiit  oa  ...  la  m\(rf]  ussea  at  least;  pai^ 
ticularly  in  the  choice  of  tht  r^ilniLit,  uiid  vaa  therefore  for 
the  amendment  Disputes  bet«fe^  •  ^wo  n:<.sea  during  ft  eon* 
eern*.  the  vacaney  of  the  Executive  might  have  dangeroua  eonse- 
quences. 

Col.  Mason  thought  the  amendment  of  10  Gov^  Morria  extended 
too  far.  Treaties  are  in  a  subsequent  part  deelared  to  be  laws,  they 
will  be  therefore  *  subjected  to  a  negative ;  altho'  thoy  are  to  be  made 
as  proposed  by  the  Senate  alone.  He  proposed  that  the  mutual  nega* 
tive  should  be  restrained  to  "  caaea  requiring  the  distinct  aasent " 
of  the  two  Houses. 

M:  Got!  Monos  thought  this  but  a  repetition  of  the  same  thing; 
the  mutual  negative  and  distinct  asaent,  being  equavalent  expres- 
sions.   Treaties  he  thought  were  not  laws. 

W.  Madison  moved  to  strike  out  the  words  "  each  of  which  shall 
in  all  cases,  have  a  negative  on  the  other ;  the  idea  being  sufficiently 
expressed  in  the  preceding  member  of  the  article;  ''-  ^ng  the 
"legislative  power"  in  "distinct  bodies,"  especially  as  thi   ^spective 

'  See  page  337. 
'  See  page  338. 

'  The  word  "  being  "  U  here  iiiMrtcd  in  the  tranarript. 
'The  worda  "be  therefore"  are  changed  in  the  traucript  to  "therefor* 
be." 


348      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


powers  and  mode  of  exercuing  them  were  fuUy  delineated  in  a 
subsequent  article. 

Oeni  PnncKiT  2*^  the  motion 

On '  question  for  inserting  legialatire  Acts  aa  mo^  id  by  W  QoV. 
Morris.' 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C?  ay.  Ff  ay.  Del  no.  M'.  no.  Y*.  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

On  ^  question  for  agreeing  to  IC  M's  motion  to  strike  oat  ftc.- 

N.  H.  ay.  Has.  ay.  CI  no.  P*  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  no.  V?  ay. 
N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Ml  Madison  wished  to  know  the  reasons  of  the  Com?  for  fixing 
by  y?  Constitution  the  time  of  Meeting  for  the  Legislature ;  and  sug- 
gested, that  it  be  required  only  that  one  meeting  at  least  should  be 
held  every  year  leaving  the  time  to  be  fixed  or  varied  by  law. 

M^  QoV.  MoBBts  moved  to  strike  out  the  sentence.  It  was  im- 
proper  to  tie  down  the  Legislature  to  a  particular  time,  or  even  to 
require  a  meeting  every  year.  The  public  business  might  not  re- 
quire it. 

Mf  PiNKMXT  concurred  with  M^  Madison. 

M'.  Obobum.  If  the  time  be  not  fixed  by  the  Constitution,  dis- 
putes will  arise  in  the  Legislature;  and  the  States  will  be  at  a  loss 
to  adjust  thereto,  the  times  of  their  elections.  In  the  N.  England 
States  the  annual  time  of  meeting  had  been  long  fixed  by  their 
Charters  &  Constitutions,  and  no  inconveniency  *  had  resulted.  He 
thouc^t  it  necessary  that  there  should  be  one  meeting  at  least  every 
year  as  a  check  on  the  Executive  department. 

M!  EteKwoRTH  was  agf  striking  out  the  words.  The  Legidature 
will  not  know  till  they  are  met  whether  the  public  interest  required 
their  meeting  or  not.  He  could  see  no  impropriety  in  fixing  the 
day,  as  the  Convention  could  judge  of  it  as  well  as  the  Legialatare. 

Mr  WiusoN  thought  on  the  whole  it  would  be  best  to  fix  the  day. 

M!  Emo  could  not  think  there  would  be  a  necessity  for  a  meeting 
every  year.  A  great  vice  in  oar  system  was  that  of  legislating  too 
much.    The  most  numerous  objects  of  legislation  belong  to  the  States. 


>  The  word  "  the "  U  han  iatcrtad  in  the  tTmoteript. 

'The  phrue  " it  paited  in  the  Mgative,  the  votes  being  eqiwllT  diTtded." 
ii  here  in«ert«d  in  the  tranecript.  — o    -i       * 

■In  the  tnnwiript  the  vote  tmOu:  "New  Hampshire,  MaMachnaatta,  Coa- 
necticut,  Pmniylvania,  North  Carolina,  aye— «;  Delaware,  Marrland.  Virainia. 
South  Carolina,  Oeoisia,  no— 6."  /-— i        •— — 

•  In  the  tranicript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Mastachnaetts,  Pean- 
glvania,  Delaware.  VlrginU,  South  Carolina.  Georgia,  aye-7;  Coaasetieat, 
Maryland.  North  Carolina,  no— 3." 

•  The  word  "  inconveniency  "  is  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  inconvenience." 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  7,  1787 

Those  of  the  .s  A^  Legidatore  were  bot  few.  The  chief  of  them  were 
commerce  &  revenue.  When  these  should  be  once  settled,  altentioos 
would  be  rarely  necessary  &  easily  made. 

Mt  Madison  thought  if  the  time  of  meeting  should  be  fixed  by  a 
law  it  w?  be  sufficiently  fixed  &  there  would  be  no  difficulty  then  as 
had  been  suggested,  on  the  part  of  the  States  in  adjusting  tiieir  elec- 
tions to  it.  One  consideration  appeared  to  him  to  militate  strongly 
t^  fixing  a  time  by  the  Constitution.  It  might  happen  that  the 
Legislature  might  be  called  together  by  the  public  ezigendea  ft  finish 
their  Session  but  a  short  time  before  tiie  annual  period.  In  this  caae 
it  would  be  extremely  inconvenient  to  reassemble  so  quieUy  ft  without 
the  least  necessity.  He  thought  one  annual  meeting  ought  to  be  re- 
quired ;  but  did  not  wish  to  make  two  unavoidable. 

Col.  Masox  thought  the  objeetiooa  against  fixing  the  time  in- 
Boperable:  but  that  an  annual  meeting  on^t  to  be  required  as  essen- 
tial to  the  preservation  of  the  Constitution.  The  extent  of  the  Coun- 
try will  supply  business.  And  if  it  should  not,  the  Legislature,  be- 
sides legislative,  is  to  have  inqwititorial  powers,  which  can  not  safely 
be  long  kept  in  a  state  of  sospension. 

W.  Shebman  was  decided  for  fixing  the  time,  as  well  as  for  fre- 
quent meetings  of  the  Legislative  body.  Disputes  and  difficulties  will 
arise  between  the  two  Houaea,  ft  between  both  ft  the  States,  if  the 
time  be  changeable — ^frequent  meetings  of  Parliament  were  required 
at  the  Revolution  in  England  as  an  essential  safeguard  of  liberty. 
So  also  are  annual  meetings  in  most  of  the  American  charters  ft 
constitutions.  There  will  be  business  eno'  to  reqnire  it  The  Western 
Country,  and  the  great  extent  and  varying  state  of  our  affairs  in 
general  will  supply  objects. 

M'  Randolph  was  agf  fixing  any  day  irrevocably;  but  as  there 
was  no  provision  made  any  where  in  the  Constitution  for  regulating 
the  periods  of  meeting,  and  some  precise  time  must  be  fixed,  untill 
the  Legislature  shall  make  proviaion,  he  could  not  agree  to  strike 
out  the  words  altogether.  Inirtead  of  which  he  moved  to  add  the 
words  following — "  unless  a  different  day  shall  be  appointed  by  law." 

M:  Maoibok  2^  the  motkm,  ft  on  the  question 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  ay.  CI  no.  K  ay.  DeL  ay.  M*  ay.  V?  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Gea  ay.* 

M!  Oov'.  MoBBis  moved  to  strike  out  OecT  ft  insert  May.  It  might 
frequently  happen  that  our  measures  oo^t  to  be  influenced  by  those 


'  In  tk«  tranieript  the  vote  raadt:  "MssMrlwurtU,  Penniylvuiia,  Delaware, 
Marylind,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  CaroUna,  Oeorgia,  aye— 8;  New 
Hampihire,  Connecticut,  00—2." 


860      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

in  Europe,  which  were  generally  planned  during  the  Winter  and  of 
which  intelligence  would  arrive  in  the  Spring. 

W-  Madison  2^  the  motion,  he  preferred  May  to  Dect  beeaune 
the  latter  would  require  the  travelling  to  &  from  the  seat  of  Oov*. 
in  the  moat  inconvenient  aeaaona  of  the  year. 

Ml  Wilson.  The  Winter  is  the  most  convenient  aeaaon  for 
businen. 

M!  EuutwowH.  The  aummer  will  interfere  too  much  with  private 
buaineas,  that  of  almoat  all  the  probable  members  of  the  Jjegialature 
being  more  or  less  connected  with  agriculture. 

M^  Randou>h.  The  time  is  of  no  great  moment  now,  as  the 
Legislature  can  vary  it.  On  looking  into  tht  Constitutions  of  the 
States,  he  found  that  the  times  of  their  elections  with  whieh  the 
Section  ^  of  the  Nat'  Representatives  would  no  doubt  be  made  to 
co-incide,  would  suit  better  with  Dec!  than  May.  And  it  was 
adviseable  to  render  our  innovations  as  little  incommooiooi  as 
possible. 

On »  question  for  "  May  "  instead  of  "  DwX  " 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CJ  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M?  no.  VJ  no. 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.« 

W.  Read  moved  to  insert  after  the  word  "  Senate  "  the  wordi, 
"  subject  to  the  Negative  to  be  hereafter  provided."  His  object 
was  to  give  an  absolute  negative  to  the  Executive — He  considered 
this  as  so  essential  to  the  Constitution,  to  the  preservation  of  liberty, 
ft  to  the  public  welfare,  that  his  duty  eompelled  him  to  make  the 
motion. 

W  Govf  MoRSis  2fl^  him.    And  <m  the  question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CJ  no.  K  no.  Del  ay.  W  no.  V?  na 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

W  RuTUDOE.  Altho'  it  is  agreed  on  all  hands  that  an  annnal 
meeting  of  the  Legislature  dioold  be  made  necessary,  yet  that  point 
seems  not  to  be  freed  froai  doubt  as  the  clause  stands.  On  this 
suggestion,  "  Once  at  least  in  every  year,"  were  inserted,  nem, 
con. 

Art.  in  with  the  foregoing  alterations  was  ag^  to  nem.  con.  and 


■  The  word  "  election  "  U  nued  in  the  plural  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  thr  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reada:  "  South  Carolina.  Georgia,  ay*— t;  Kew 
Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Vir- 
ginia, North  Carolina,  no — 8." 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  Delaware,  arc — 1 ;  New  Hampshire, 
Massachusetts.  Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  Vifginia,  NorUi  Ctfolim, 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 9." 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  7,  1787 


351 


is  aa  follows  "  The  Legiilative  power  aiiall  be  vested  in  a  CoBgrew 
to  consist  of  2  separate  &  distinct  bodies  of  men;  a  House  of  Rep! 
t  a  Senate  The  Legislature  shall  meet  at  least  once  in  every  year, 
md  such  meeting  shall  be  on  the  It*  monday  in  Dec!  unless  a  different 
da.'  shall  be  appointed  by  law." 
*"  Art  IV.  Sect  l.'"  taken  up." 

W  Gov'.  Momis  moved  to  strike  out  the  last  member  of  the  section 
beginning  with  the  words  "  qualifications  "  of  Electors,"  in  order  that 
some  other  provision  might  be  substituted  which  w^  restrain  the 
right  of  suffrage  to  freeholders. 

M^  FiTzncMONB  2*?*  the  motion 

M'.  WiLUAMSON  was  opposed  to  it. 

M!  WiisON.  This  part  of  the  Report  was  well  considered  by  the 
Committee,  and  he  did  not  think  it  could  be  changed  for  the  better. 
It  was  difficult  to  form  any  uniform  rule  of  qualifications  for  all  the 
States.  Unnecessary  innovations  he  thought  too  should  be  avoided. 
It  would  be  very  hard  &  disagreeable  for  the  same  persons  at  the 
same  time,  to  vote  for  representatives  in  the  State  Legislature  and 
to  be  excluded  from  a  vote  for  those  in  the  Nat'  Legislature. 

HP  Govr  MoRBis.  Such  a  hardship  would  be  neither  great  nor 
novel,  'ihe  people  are  accustomed  to  it  and  not  dissatisfied  with  it, 
in  several  of  the  States.  In  some  the  qualifications  -are  different  for 
the  choice  of  the  Gov!  &>  Representatives;  In  others  for  different 
Houses  of  the  Legislature.  Another  objection  agf  the  clause  aa  it 
stands  is  that  it  makes  the  qualifications  of  the  Nat'  Legialatnie  de- 
pend on  the  will  of  the  States,  which  he  thought  not  proper. 

M*.  Elseworth.  thou^t  the  qualifications  of  the  electors  stcjd 
ci'  the  most  proper  footing.  The  right  of  suffrage  was  a  tender 
point,  and  8troi«ly  guarded  by  most  of  the  State  Constitutions.  The 
people  win  not  readily  subscribe  to  the  Nati  Constitution  if  it  should 
subject  them  to  be  disfranchised.  The  States  are  the  best  Judges 
of  the  circumstances  &  temper  of  their  own  people. 

Col.  Mason.  The  force  of  habit  is  certainly  not  attended  to  by 
those  gentlemen  who  wish  for  innovations  on  this  point.  Eight  or 
nine  States  have  extended  the  right  of  suffrage  beyond  the  free- 
holders, what  will  the  people  there  say,  if  they  should  be  dis- 
franchised. A  power  to  alter  the  qualifications  would  be  a  dangerous 
power  in  the  hands  of  the  Legislature. 

W.  Butler.    There  is  no  rig^t  of  which  the  people  are  more 


*  8ee  page  338. 

'  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 

'  The  words  "  of  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 


352      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

jealous  than  that  of  suifrage  Abridgments  of  it  tend  to  the  saine 
revolution  as  in  Holland  where  they  have  at  length  thrown  all 
power  into  the  hands  of  the  Senates,  who  fill  up  vacancies  them- 
selves, and  form  a  rank  aristocracy. 

M^  Dickenson,  had  a  very  different  idea  of  the  tendency  of  vest- 
ing the  right  of  suffrage  in  the  freeholders  of  the  Country.  He  con- 
sidered them  as  the  best  guardians  of  liberty ;  And  the  reitriction  o^ 
the  right  to  them  as  a  necessary  defence  ag?'  the  dangerous  influence 
of  those  multitudes  without  property  &  without  principle  with  which 
our  Country  like  all  others,  will  in  time  abound.  As  to  the  tinpopu- 
larity  of  the  innovation  it  was  in  his  opinion  chemirical.  The  great 
mass  of  our  Citizens  is  composed  at  this  time  of  freeholders,  and  will 
be  pleased  with  it. 

MT  Slseworth.  How  shall  the  freehold  be  defined  t  Ought  not 
every  man  who  pays  a  tax,  to  vote  for  the  representative  who  is  to 
levy  &  dispose  of  his  money  t  Shall  the  wealthy  merchants  &  manu- 
facturers, who  will  bear  a  full  share  of  the  public  burdens  be  not 
allowed  a  voice  in  the  imposition  of  them — ^taxation  &  representation 
ought  to  go  together. 

Ml  Gk>vr  Morris.  He  had  long  learned  not  to  be  the  dupe  of 
words.  The  sound  of  Aristocracy  therefore  had  no  effect  on  *  him.  It 
was  the  thing,  not  the  name,  to  which  he  was  opposed,  and  one  of  his 
principal  objections  to  the  Constitution  as  it  is  now  before  us,  is  that 
it  threatens  this '  Country  with  an  Aristocracy.  The  aristocracy  will 
grow  out  of  the  House  of  Representatives.  Give  the  votes  to  people 
who  have  no  property,  and  they  will  sell  them  to  the  rich  who  will 
be  able  to  buy  them.  We  should  not  confine  our  attention  to  the 
present  moment.  The  time  is  not  distant  when  this  Country  will 
abound  with  mechanics  &  manufactures '  who  will  receive  their  bread 
from  their  employers.  "Will  such  men  be  the  secure  &  foiihfnl 
Guardians  of  liberty  T  Will  they  be  the  impregnable  barrier  ag? 
aristocracy  t — He  was  as  little  duped  by  the  association  of  the  words 
"  taxation  &  Representation."  The  man  who  does  not  give  his  vote 
freely  is  not  represented.  It  is  the  man  who  dictates  the  vote.  Chil- 
dren do  not  vote.  Why?  because  they  want  prudence,  becanse  they 
have  no  will  of  their  own.  The  ignorant  &  the  dependent  can  be 
as  little  trusted  with  the  public  interest.  He  did  not  conceive  the 
difficulty  of  defining  "  freeholders  "  to  be  insuperable.     Still  less 


factures 


'  The  word  "upon"  is  substituted  in  tLe  transcript  for  "on." 
'The  word  "the"  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "this." 
The  word  "  manufacturers "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  m>nu- 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  7,  1787 


S58 


that  the  restriction  coald  be  unpopular.  %>  of  the  people  are  at 
present  freeholders  and  these  will  certainly  be  pteaaed  with  it.  Am 
to  Merch*^  &c.  if  they  have  wealth  &  value  the  rig^t  they  can  aequire 
it.    If  not  they  don't  deserve  it. 

Col.  Mason.  We  all  feel  too  strongly  the  remains  of  antient 
prejudices,  and  view  things  too  much  through  a  British  medinm. 
A  Freehold  is  the  qualification  in  England,  &  hence  it  is  imagined 
to  be  the  only  proper  one.  The  true  idea  in  his  opinion  was  that 
every  man  having  evidence  of  attachment  to  &  permanent  common 
interest  with  the  Soeioty  ought  to  shne  in  all  its  rights  &  privilege*. 
Was  this  qualification  restrained  to  freeholders  t  Does  no  other  kind 
of  property  but  land  evidence  a  common  interest  in  the  proprietor  f 
does  nothing  besides  property  mark  a  permanent  attachment.  Ought 
the  merchant,  the  monied  man,  the  parent  of  a  number  of  children 
whose  fortunes  ;.re  to  be  pursued  in  his  own  Country,  to  be  viewed 
as  suspicious  characters,  and  unworthy  to  be  trusted  with  the  com- 
moD  rights  of  their  fellow  Citizens 

iP  Madison,  the  right  of  suffrage  is  certainly  one  of  the  funda> 
mental  articles  of  republican  Oovemment,  and  ought  not  to  be  1^ 
to  be  regulated  by  the  Legislature.  A  gradual  abridgment  of  thia' 
right  has  been  the  mode  in  which  Aristocracies  have  been  built  on  the 
ruins  of  popular  forms.  Whether  the  Constitutional  qualification 
ought  to  be  a  freehold,  would  with  him  depend  much  on  the  probable 
reception  such  a  change  would  meet  with  in  *  States  where  the  right 
was  now  exercised  by  every  description  of  people.  In  several  of  the 
States  a  freehold  was  now  the  qualification.  Viewing  the  subject  in 
its  merits  alone,  the  freeholders  of  the  Country  would  be  the  safest 
depositories  of  Republican  liberty.  In  future  times  a  great  majority 
of  the  people  will  not  only  be  without  landed,  but  any  other  sort  of, 
property.  These  will  either  combine  under  the  influence  of  their 
lommon  situation ;  iu  which  case,  the  rights  of  property  &  the  public 
liberty,  will  not  be  secure  in  their  hands :  or  which  -  is  more  probable, 
they  will  become  the  tools  of  opulence  &  ambition,  in  which  case 
there  will  be  equal  danger  on  another  side.  The  example  of  England 
had  been  misconceived  [by  Col  Mason].  A  very  sma'.!  proportion  of 
the  Representatives  are  there  chosen  by  freeholders.  The  greatest 
part  are  chosen  by  the  Cities  &  boroughs,  in  many  of  whieh  the  quali- 
tication  of  suffrage  is  as  low  as  it  is  in  any  one  of  the  U.  S.  and  it 
was  in  the  boroughs  &  Cities  rather  than  the  Counties,  that  bribery 


'  The  word  "  tho  "  is  here  inwrted  in  the  tnmicript. 

'  The  word  "  which  "  is  croued  out  in  the  tmucript  and  "  what "  ii  writtea 
above  it. 


864      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

mort  prevailed,  4  the  inflaenee  of  the  Crown  on  eleetiona  wu  moat 
dangeroualy  exerted.* 

Doer  FiUNKUN.    It  it  of  great  conaeqnenee  that  we  ahf  not  de- 
prew  the  virtue  &  public  ipirit  of  our  common  people;  of  which  they 
dupUyed  a  great  deal  during  the  war,  and  which  contributed  prin- 
cipaUy  to  the  favorable  iarae  of  it    He  reUted  the  honorable  t«fuaal 
of  the  American  teamen  who  were  carried  in  great  number*  into 
the  British  Priaona  during  the  war,  to  redeem  themaelvea  from 
miaenr  or  to  seek  their  fortune*,  by  entering  on  board  the  Ships  of 
the  Enemies  to  their  Country;  contrasting  their  patriotiam  with  a 
eontemporary  inatance  in  which  the  Britiah  aeamen  made  priaonen 
by  the  Americans,  readily  entered  on  the  ahipa  of  the  Utter  on  being 
promiaed  a  ahare  of  the  prizes  that  might  be  made  out  of  their  own 
Country.     This  proceeded  he  said  from  the  different  manner  in 
which  the  common  people  were  treated  in  America  ft  G.  Britain.    He 
did  not  think  that  the  elected  had  any  right  in  any  case  to  narrow  the 
pnvUegea  of  the  electora.    He  quoted  aa  arbitrary  the  Britiah  Statute 
setting  forth  the  danger  of  tumultuous  meetings,  and  under  that 
pretext  narrowing  the  right  of  suffrage  to  persons  having  freeholds 
of  a  certain  value;  observing  that  this  Statute  was  soon  followed  by 
another  under  the  succeeding  Pariiam*  subjecting  the  people  who  had 
no  votes  to  peculiar  labors  &  hardahipa.    He  waa  perauaded  alao  that 
such  a  restriction  aa  was  proposed  would  give  great  uneaaineas  in 
the  populous  States.    The  aona  of  a  substantial  farmer,  not  being 
themselves  freeholders,  would  not  be  pleased  at  being  disfranchised, 
and  there  are  a  great  many  persona  of  that  description. 

MI  Mebcer.  The  Constitution  is  objectionable  in  many  points, 
but  in  none  more  than  the  preaent.  He  objected  to  the  footing  on 
which  the  qualification  was  put,  but  particularly  to  the  mode  of 
"lection  by  the  people.  The  people  can  not  know  ft  judge  of  the 
Aaracters  of  Candidates.  The  worse  possible  choice  will  be  made. 
lU  quoted  the  case  of  the  Senate  in  Virg*  as  an  example  in  point 
The  people  in  Towns  can  unite  their  votes  in  favor  of  one  favorite; 
ft  by  that  means  always  prevail  over  the  people  of  the  Cotintiy,  who 
being  dispersed  will  scatter  their  votes  among  a  variety  of  candidates. 

M:  Rutudoe  thought  the  idea  of  restraining  the  right  of  suffrage 
to  the  freeholders  a  very  unadvised  one.  It  would  create  diviiion 
among  the  people  &  make  enemies  of  all  those  who  should  be  ex- 
cluded. 


■In  the  transcript  the  following  footnote  ie  here  added:  "Bm  Aopendlx 
Ao.  —  for  a  note  of  Mr.  Madison  to  this  speech."  See  Appendix  to  Debates  VII, 
Not.  1  and  2,  p.  619,  for  notes  concerning  Madison's  speech  of  August  7,  1787. 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  8,  1787         355 

On  the  qomtion  for  itriking  out  u  moved  by  M!  Oor^  Morrii, 
from  the  word  "  qualifications  "  to  the  end  of  the  III  article 


N. 


N.  H.  no.    Mae. 

C.  no.    S.  C.  no. 


no.    CJ  no.    P?  no.    DeL  ay.    M*.  div*    V*  no. 
Oeo.  not  prea!  * 
Adjourned 


Wednesdat  AuoT  8.    Ik  convention 

Art:  IV.  Sect.  1.*'  * — ^M^  Mercer  ezpreaied  hia  dislike  of  the  whde 
plan,  and  his  opinion  that  it  never  could  succeed. 

IV  Ohorum.  he  had  never  seen  any  ineonvenieney  *  from  allow- 
ing such  as  were  not  freeholders  to  vote,  though  it  had  long  been 
tried.  The  elections  in  Philf  N.  York  ft  Boston  where  the  Merchants, 
&  Mechanics  vote  are  at  least  aa  good  aa  those  made  by  freeholders 
only.  The  case  in  England  was  not  accurately  stated  yesterday  [by 
W  Madison]  The  Cities  ft  large  towns  are  not  the  seat  of  Crown 
influence  ft  corruption.  These  prevail  in  the  Boroughs,  and  not  on 
account  of  the  rijg^t  which  those  who  are  not  freeholders  have  to 
vote,  but  of  the  smallness  of  the  number  who  vote.  The  people  have 
been  long  accustomed  to  this  right  in  various  parts  of  America,  and 
will  never  allow  it  to  be  abridged.  We  must  consult  their  rooted 
prejudices  if  we  expect  their  concurrence  in  our  propoiitions. 

M!  Mercer  did  not  object  so  much  to  an  election  by  the  people 
at  large  including  such  aa  were  not  freeholders,  as  to  their  being 
left  to  make  their  choice  without  any  guidance.  He  hinted  that 
Candidates  ought  to  be  nominated  by  the  State  Legialatures. 

On '  question  for  agreeing  to  Art:  lY-  Sect.  1  it  pass?  nem.  con. 

Art  IV.  Sect.  2.>-  •  taken  up. 

Col.  Mason  was  for  opening  a  wide  door  for  emigrants;  but  did 
not  chuse  to  let  foreigners  and  adventurers  make  laws  for  us  ft 
govern  us.  Citizenship  for  three  years  was  not  enough  for  ensuring 
that  local  knowledge  which  ought  to  be  possessed  by  the  Bepresenta- 
tive.  This  was  the  principal  ground  of  his  objection  to  so  short  a 
term.    It  might  also  happen  that  a  rich  foreign  Nation,  for  example 

'In  the  tnnieript  the  vote  readi:  " Delaware,  »ye— 1;  New  Hampehire, 
Maxfiachusetti,  Connecticut,  Penniylvania,  Virginia,  North  Carotina,  South 
Carolina,  no — 7;  Maryland,  divided ;  Oeorgia,  not  present." 

'  .See  page  338. 

'The  words  "being  under  consideration"  are  here  taeertwt  in  the  tran- 
script. 

*  The  word  "  inconveniency  "  is  changed  to  "  inconvenience  "  in  the  tfaaacript. 

'  The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


356      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Great  Britain,  might  Mnd  over  her  tools  who  might  bribe  their  w^ 
into  the  Legislature  for  insidious  purposes.  He  moved  tlwt "  seren  " 
years  instead  of  "  three,"  be  inserted. 

Ml  Gov.  ilOKUB  2^  the  Motion,  ft  on  the  question,  all  the  States 
agreed  to  it  except  Connecticut 

M^  Sbzhmak  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  "  resident  "  and  insert 
"  inhabitant,"  as  less  liable  to  misconstruction. 

SR  Uadkon  2^!*  the  motion,  both  were  vague,  but  the  latter  least 
so  in  common  acceptation,  and  would  not  exclude  persons  absent 
occasionally  for  a  considerable  time  on  public  or  private  business. 
Great  disputes  had  been  raised  in  Virgf  concerning  the  meaning  of 
residence  as  a  qualification  of  Representatives  which  were  ^er- 
mined  more  according  to  the  affection  or  dislike  to  the  man  in  qnas> 
tion,  than  to  any  fixt  interpretation  of  the  word. 

Mr  Wilson  preferred  "  inhabitant" 

Mr  Govt  MoRRn,  was  orpoaed  to  both  and  for  requiring  nothing 
more  than  a  freehold.  He  quoted  great  disputes  in  N.  York  oeoa- 
sioned  by  these  terms,  which  were  decided  by  the  arbitrary  will 
of  the  majority.  Such  a  regulation  is  not  necessary.  People  rardy 
chuse  a  nonresident — It  is  improper  as  in  the  l!*  branch,  the  ptofit 
at  large,  not  the  Statet,  are  represented. 

Mr  RuTLiDGE  urged  &  moved  that  a  residence  of  7  years  shI  be 
required  in  the  State  Wherein  the  Member  sh<!  be  elected.  An  emi> 
grant  from  N.  England  to  S.  C.  or  Georgia  would  know  little  of  its 
affairs  and  could  not  be  supposed  to  acquire  a  thoroi^  knowledge 
in  less  time. 

Mr  Bbad  reminded  him  that  we  were  now  forming  a  Naii  Govl 
and  such  a  regulation  would  correspond  little  with  the  idea  that  we 
were  one  people. 

Mr  Wilson,    enforced  the  same  consideration. 

Mr  Madison  suggested  the  case  of  new  States  in  the  West,  which 
could  have  perhaps  no  representation  on  that  plan. 

Mr  Mzrces.  Such  a  regulation  would  present  a  greater  alien- 
ship  among  the  States  ^  than  existed  under  the  old  federal  system. 
It  would  interweave  local  prejudices  &  State  distinctions  in  the 
very  Constitution  which  is  meant  to  cure  them.  He  mentioned  in- 
stances of  violent  disputes  raised  in  Maryland  concerning  the  term 
"  residence  " 

Mr  Elseworth  thought  seven  years  of  residence  was  by  far  too 
long  a  term :  but  that  some  fixt  term  of  previous  residence  would  be 

'  The  phnte  "  among  the  States  "  ia  omitted  in  the  tnmscr^t. 


8E£»I0N  OP  WBDNB8DAY,  AUGUST  8,  1787         387 

proper.  H*  thought  one  year  would  b«  mfteieBt,  but  •eemed  to 
have  no  obje«*tion  to  three  yeart. 

M;  Dickenson  proposed  that  it  nhoold  read  ' '  inhabitant  actually 
resident  for  year.'"     This  would  tender  the  meaning  Imi 

indeterminate. 

M*.  WiiiMnr.  U  a  short  term  shonl'*  natrtad  in  the  blank, 
10  strict  an  expression  mi^t  be  const?  >..  exclude  the  members 

o£  the  Legislature,  who  could  not  be  said  lo  ce  actual  residenta  in 
their  SUtes  whilst  at  the  Seat  of  the  Gen!  Government. 

W  Mncxs.  It  would  cerUinly  exclude  men,  who  had  once  bean 
inhabitants,  and  returning  from  residence  elsewhere  to  resettle  in 
their  original  Sute;  althou^  a  want  of  the  necessary  knowledfd 
could  not  in  such  case '  be  presumed.  

IT  Masom  thought  7  years  too  long,  but  would  never  agree  to 
part  with  the  principle.  It  is  a  valuable  principle.  He  thought  it 
a  defect  in  the  plan  that  the  RepreswiUtives  would  bo  too  few  to 
bring  with  them  all  the  local  knowledge  necessary.  If  residence  be 
not  required.  Rich  men  of  neighbouring  States,  may  employ  with 
success  the  means  of  corruption  in  some  particular  district  and 
thereby  get  into  the  public  Councils  after  having  failed  in  their 
own  State.*    This  is  the  practice  in  the  boroughs  of  England. 

On  the  question  for  postponing  in  order  to  consider  M^  Dicken- 

Eons  motion  . 

N.  H.  no.   Mai.  no.    C<  no.    N.  J.  no.    P?  no.    Del.  no.   M^  ay. 

V?  no.   N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.*  ,...__, 

On  the  question  for  inserting  "  inhabitant "  in  place  of  resi- 
dent "— agl  to  nem.  con.  ^, 

M;  Elsewobth  &  CoL  Mason  move  to  insert  one  year  for 
previous  inhabitancy  .     n     ^ 

Ml  WiLUAMSON  liked  the  Beport  as  it  stood.  He  thought  resi- 
dent "  8  good  eno'  term.  He  was  ag?  requiring  any  period  of 
previous  residence.  New  residents  if  elected  will  be  most  zealous  to 
Conform  to  the  will  of  their  constituents,  as  their  conduct  will  be 
watched  with  a  more  jealous  eye. 

in  BUTI.ER  &  M^  BuTUDOE  movcd  ' '  three  years  ' '  instead  of  one 
year  "  for  previous  inhabitancy. 

On  the  question  for  3  years- 


>The  transcript  uses  the  word  "yeair''  In  «»  plnr»»- 

•  The  tranicript  \uet  the  word  "  c«ie  "to  the  plurml. 

•  Th»  trftiuerist  iiaee  the  word  "  State  "  to  the  plural.  ...,_, 
.]?th?^^^  thTvote  re«U=  « Maryland    South  Carolta..  Gj»tjte. 

.T^sTNew  Hampihire.  Mai«chuietta.  Connecticut,  New  Jeraey.  PennayWanla, 
Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  no— «." 


8M      DBBATE8  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


I'?  00.    Del.  no.    ii*  no. 


Pt  no     Del  no.    M<  dlif 


iiotf,  WM  afned 


N.  H.  no.    Mw.  no.    C\  no.    N.  J.  no 
Vfno.    N.  Gno.    8.  C.  ly,    (Jeo.  ay.» 

On  the  qoMtion  /or  "1  year  " 

N.  fl.  no— Mm.  no.    C«  no.    N.  J,  ay. 
Vfno.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  Cay.   Geo.  ay.» 

Art.  IV.  Sect  2.  Aa  amended  in  manner  pre. 
to  nem.  con. 

Art:IV.  Sect.  8."»«t«k#nap. 

Gen.'  PmKN.y  ft  Mr  Pinkkit  moved  that  the  number  of  ren. 
menuuve.  Plotted  to  S.  CaroH  b.  "  d,"  on  the  queetton  *" 

Ml  no.    Vfno.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    €k».  ty.»  ^ 

The  3.  Sect,  of  Art:  IV  waa  then  agreed  ta 

Art:  IV.  Sect.  iJ  *  taken  up. 

M:  Wiluamson  moved  to  rtrike  out  "  according  to  the  providona 
hereinafter  after  made  "  and  to  inaert  the  word.  "LordinJ"r?S 
mle  ^hereafter  to  be  provided  for  direct  taction    -See  Art.  VII 

S°H 'J"?f°"  '"''  'IT*^*  *'  ^  Willlam«,n'.  amendment 

vi!  vn'  d^-  *^'^-  '*''°''-  P'V.  Dal.no.  Ml  ay. 
Vfay.  N.  Cay.   8.  C  ay.   Geo.  ay.'  ^ 

Mr  KDfo  wiriied  to  know  what  influence  the  vote  jurt  pa«HKi  wu 

the  admassion  of  slave,  into  the  role  of  Bepre«ntatio.L  uTZZ 
not  reconcUe  hi.  mind  to  the  article  if  it  wm  to  prevent  obIectio« 
to  the  latter  part.  The  admi«ion  of  dave.  wa.  a  mortT^tZ 
circumrtance  to  hu  mind,  &  he  believed  would  be  «.  to  a^a?pS^ 
of  the  people  of  America.    He  had  not  mad.  a  rtrennou.  ^pJZ 

have  produced  a  readine«,  which   had  not   been   maniferted,   to 

Cwc  pA^6  338. 
^??*.ir'°r'^*  "'?■  '^.•""  ""  J""  taierted  In  the  tr«BMrlDt 


PencwiTaSia,  

•  See  page  341 


'The  word  •■  to"  i.  here  inaerted  in  the  tranacript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESOAT,  AUGUSTS,  1787 


8N 


itrengthen  the  Gen|  Oov.*  and  to  mark  a  fall  eonfidene*  in  it.  Tha 
Report  under  conaideration  had  by  the  tenor  of  it,  pat  an  end  to 
all  those  hopea.  In  two  great  pointa  the  handa  of  Um  Legiilatara 
were  abaolutely  tied.  The  importation  of  ilavea  eoald  not  be  pr«>* 
hibited— exporta  coald  not  be  taxed.  la  thia  reaaonaUet  What  are 
the  great  objeeta  of  the  Oeni  Sjratemf  1.*  dafanM  aff  foreign  inva- 
lion.  2.*  agf  internal  aedition.  Shall  all  the  Stataa  than  be  bound 
to  defend  each ;  A  shall  each  b«  at  liberty  to  introdaee  a  weakneaa 
which  will  render  defence  more  diffleoltf  Shall  one  part  of  the 
U.  S.  be  boond  to  defend  another  part,  and  that  other  part  be  at 
liberty  not  only  to  increaae  its  own  danger,  bat  to  withhold  the  com* 
pensation  for  the  harden  f  If  elayea  are  to  be  impoited  shall  not 
the  exporta  produced  by  their  labor,  supply  a  revenue  the  better  to 
enable  the  Oen!  Gov!  to  defend  their  masters  t — There  waa  so  much 
inequality  A  unreasonableness  in  all  thia,  that  the  people  of  the 
Northern  Statea  could  never  be  reconciled  to  it  No  candid  man 
could  undertake  to  justify  it  to  them.  He  had  hoped  that  some 
accomodation  w4  have  taken  place  on  thia  subjeot;  that  at  least  a 
time  w1  have  been  limited  for  the  importation  of  slaves.  He  never 
could  agree  to  let  them  be  imported  without  limitation  A  then  be 
represented  in  the  Nat'  Legislature.  Indeed  he  eoald  so  littlo  per- 
suade himself  of  the  rectitude  of  such  a  practice,  that  he  waa  not 
sure  he  could  assent  to  it  under  any  circumstances.  At  all  events, 
either  slaves  ahonld  not  be  repreaented,  or  exports  ahould  be  taxable. 

W-  Shzsman  regarded  the  alave  trade  as  iniquitous;  but  the 
point  of  representation  having  been  aettled  after  much  difflculty  A 
deliberation,  he  did  not  think  himaelf  bound  to  make  opposition ;  espe- 
cially as  the  preaent  article  aa  amended  did  not  preclude  any 
arrangement  whatever  on  that  point  in  another  place  of  the  Report. 

M^  Madibok  objected  to  1  for  every  40,000,  inhabitanta  as  a  per- 
petual rule.  The  future  increaae  of  population  if  the  Union  sh'!  be 
permanent,  will  render  the  number  of  Representatives  excessive. 

Mt  Ohobum.  It  is  not  to  be  supposed  that  the  Qavi  will  laat  ao 
long  as  to  produce  this  effect  Can  it  be  supposed  that  this  vast 
Country  induding  the  Western  territory  will  150  yeara  hence  remain 
one  nation  T 

W.  Elseworth.  If  the  Gk>v^  should  eontinoe  so  long,  alterations 
may  be  made  in  the  Constitution  in  the  manner  propoaed  in  a  subse- 
quent article. 

M'  Sherman  A  Mt  Madwon  moved  to  insert  the  words  "  not 

'  The  flguret  "  1 "  and  "  2  "  sre  cluuiged  to  "  First "  and  "  Secondly  "  in  the 
tranicript. 


MlOIOCOPr  mSOlUTION  tbt  chait 

(ANSI  and  ISO  TEST  CHART  No    2) 


^  /APPLIED  IIVl^GE    In 

^^  16!*^    Cast    Uoi.;    StrMt 

f-S  Hoc^ealer.   N«*   vorh         '*609       USA 

t^S  l^^'*')  *82  -  0300  -  Phone 

^S  ('!«)   ?«8  -  59B9  -  Fa« 


360 


DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


1   for  every  40,000,   which 


wu 


exceeding"  before   the  words 
agreed  to  nem.  eon. 

m  Govt  Morbis  moved  to  insert  "  f ree  "  before  the  word  inhabi- 
tants.    Much  he  said  would  depend  on  this  point.    He  never  would 
concur  in  upholding  domestic  slavery.    It  was  a  nefarious  institution. 
It  was  the  curse  of  heaven  on  the  States  where  it  prevailed.    Com- 
pare  the  free  regions  of  the  Middle  States,  where  a  rich  &  noble 
cultivation  marks  the  prosperity  &  happiness  of  the  people,  with  the 
misery  &  poverty  which  overspread  the  barren  wastes  of  Vf  Maryl 
&  the  other  States  having  slaves.    Travel  thro'  y?  whole  Continent 
&  you  behold  the  prospect  continually  varying  with  the  appearance  ft 
Jsappearance  of  slavery.    The  moment  you  leave  yf  E.  Sts.  ft  enter 
N.  York  the  effects  of  the  institution  become  visible,  passing  thro' 
the  Jerseys  &  entering  P«  every  criterion  of  superior  improvement 
witnesses  the  change.    Proceed  southw*  &  every  step  you  take  thro' 
y?  great  region  of  slaves  presents  a  desert  increasing,  with  y?  in- 
creasing  proportion  proportion  of  these  wretched  beings.  Upon  what 
principle  is  it  that  the  slaves  shaU  be  computed  in  the  represen- 
tation?     Are    they    men!      Then    make    them    Citizens    and    let 
?.,?.'•  ,^™J^^^  Propertyt     Why  then  is  no  other  property 
included »    The  Houses  in  this  city  [Philad:]  are  worth  more  than 
r    *''« J™t«]'«i  slaves  which  cover  the  rice  swamps  of  South  Caro- 
una.    The  admission  of  slaves  into  the  Representation  when  fairly 
explained  comes  to  this:  that  the  inhabitant  of  Georgia  and  S   0 
who  goes  to  the  Coast  of  Africa,  and  in  defiance  of  the  most  sacred 
laws  of  humanity  tears  away  his  fellow  creatures  from  their  dearest 
connections  &  damns  them  to  the  most  cruel  bondages,^  shall  have 
more  votes  in  a  Govf  instituted  for  protection  of  the  rights  of  man- 
kind, than  the  Citizen  of  P?  or  N.  Jersey  who  views  with  a  laudable 
horror,  so  nefarious  a  practice.    He  would  add  that  Domestic  slavery 
IS  the  most  prominent  feature  in  the  aristocratic  countenance  of  the 
proposed  Constitution.    The  vassalage  of  the  poor  has  ever  been  the 
favorite  offspring  of  Aristocracy.    And  What  is  the  proposed  com- 
pensation  to  the  Northern  States  for  a  sacrifice  of  every  principle  of 
right  of  every  impulse  of  humanity.    They  are  to  bind  themselves  to 
march  their  mUitia  for  the  defence  of  the  S.  States;  for  their  defence 
ag!  those  very  slaves  of  whom  they  complain.     They  must  supply 
vessels  &  seamen  in  case  of  foreign  Attack.     The  Legislature  will 
have  indefinite  power  to  tax  them  by  excises,  and  duties  on  imports: 
both  of  which  will  fall  heavier  on  them  than  on  the  Southern  inhabi- 


'  The  transcript  uees  the  word  "bondages"  in  the  aingular. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  8,  1787  361 

tants ;  for  the  bohea  tea  nsed  by  a  Northern  freeman,  will  pay  more 
tax  than  the  whole  consumption  of  the  miserable  slave,  which  con- 
sists of  nothing  more  than  his  physical  subsistence  and  the  rag  that 
covers  his  nakedness.  On  the  other  side  the  Southern  States  are 
not  to  be  restrained  from  importing  fresh  supplies  of  wretched 
Africans,  at  once  to  increase  the  danger  of  attack,  and  the  difSculty 
of  defence ;  nay  they  are  to  be  encouraged  to  it  by  an  assurance  of 
having  their  votes  in  the  Nat'  Qov'  increased  in  proportion,  and  are  at 
the  same  time  to  have  their  exports  &  their  slaves  exempt  from  all 
contributions  for  the  public  service.  Let  it  not  be  said  that  direct 
taxation  is  to  be  proportioned  to  representation.  It  is  idle  to  suppose 
that  the  Gen?  Oov^  can  stretch  its  hand  directly  into  the  pockets  of 
the  people  scattered  over  so  vast  a  Country.  They  can  only  do  it 
through  the  meditun  of  exports  imports  &  excises.  For  what  then 
are  all  these  sacrifices  to  be  madef  He  would  sooner  submit  himself 
to  a  tax  for  paying  for  all  the  negroes  in  the  U.  States,  than  saddle 
posterity  with  such  a  Constitution. 

Mr  Dayton  2f  the  motion.  He  did  it  he  said  that  his  senti- 
ments on  the  subject  might  appear  whatever  might  be  the  fate  of 
the  amendment. 

Mt  Shebman.  did  not  regard  the  admission  of  the  Negroes  into 
the  ratio  of  representati<ni,  as  liable  to  such  insuperable  objections.  It 
was  the  freemen  of  the  South?  States  who  were  in  fact  to  be  repre- 
sented according  to  the  taxes  paid  by  them,  and  the  Negroes  are  only 
included  in  the  Estimate  of  the  taxes.  This  was  his  idea  of  the 
matter. 

W.  PiNKNET,  considered  the  fisheries  &  the  Western  frontier  as 
more  burdensome  to  the  U.  S.  than  the  slaves.  He  thought  this  could 
be  demonstrated  if  the  occasion  were  a  proper  one. 

W.  Wilson,  thouf^t  the  motion  premature.  An  agreement  to 
the  clause  would  be  no  bar  to  the  object  of  it. 

^Question  On*  motion  to  insert  "  free  "  before  "  inhabitants." 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  G^  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
Vr  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

On  the  suggestion  of  M^  Dickenson  the  words,  "  provided  that 
each  State  shall  have  one  representative  at  least." — were  added 
nem.  con. 

Art.  IV.  Sect.  4.  as  amended  was  atrreed  to  nem.  con. 


'  The  words  "  (in  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jersey,  aye— 1;  New  Hampshire, 
Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 10." 


mpr 


862      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Art.  IV.  Sect.  5.>'  taken  ap 

M'.  PiNKNEY  moved  to  strike  out  Sect.  5.  As  giving  no  peculiar 
advantage  to  the  House  of  Representatives,  and  as  clogging  the 
Qoy*.  If  the  Senate  can  be  trusted  with  the  many  great  powers 
proposed,  it  surely  may  be  trusted  with  that  of  originating  money 
bills. 

Mr  Ohorum.  was  ag?  allowing  the  Senate  to  originate;  but »  only 
to  amend. 

IP  Govt  MoRws.  It  is  particularly  proper  that  the  Senate  sh* 
have  the  right  of  originating  money  bills.  They  will  sit  constantly, 
will  consist  of  a  smaller  number,  and  will  be  able  to  prepare  such 
bills  with  due  correctness ;  and  so  as  to  prevent  delay  of  businesB  in 
the  other  House. 

Col.  Mason  was  unwilling  to  travel  over  this  ground  again.  To 
strike  out  the  section,  was  to  unhinge  the  compromise  of  which  it 
made  a  part.  The  duration  of  the  Senate  made  it  improper.  He 
does  not  object  to  that  duration.  On  the  Contraiy  he  approved  of 
it.  But  joined  with  the  smallness  of  the  number,  it  was  an  argument 
against  adding  this  to  the  other  great  powers  vested  in  that  body. 
His  idea  of  an  Aristocracy  was  that  it  was  the  govern,*  of  the  few 
over  the  many.  An  aristocratic  body,  like  the  screw  in  mechanics, 
worki?  its  way  by  slow  degrees,  and  holding  faat  whatever  it  gains, 
should  ever  be  suspected  of  an  encroaching  tendency.  The  purse 
strings  should  never  be  put  into  its  hands. 

Mt  Mkrcbb.  considered  the  exclusive  power  of  originating  Money 
bills  as  80  great  an  advantage,  that  it  rendered  the  equality  of  votes 
in  the  Senate  ideal  &  of  no  consequence. 

M!  BcTUB  was  for  adhering  to  the  principle  which  had  been 
settled. 

Ml  Wilson  was  opposed  to  it  on  its  merits  without  regard  to  the 
compromise 

Mr  Elsewobth  did  not  think  the  clause  of  any  consequence,  but 
as  it  was  thought  of  consequence  by  some  members  from  the  larger 
States,  he  was  willing  it  should  stand. 

Mr  Madison  was  for  striking  it  out :  considering  it  as  of  no  ad- 
vantage to  the  large  States  as  fettering  the  Gov.»  and  as  a  source 
of  injurious  altercations  between  the  two  Houses. 

On  the  question  for  striking  out  "  Sect.  5.  Art.  IV  " 


'  Sec  page  338. 

'  ^1  Z^l^t  ."  ""**  P™  ',',  "f  ^"'  ''■^■'•t'^  i»  *''«'  transcript. 
The  word*  "wan  for  allowing  it"  are  here  inserted  in  tie  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAT,  AUGUST  9,  1787 

P*  ay.    Del.  ay. 


N.  H.  no.    Mas.  no.    Ct 
V?ay.   N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay. 


no.    N.  J.  ay. 
Geo.  ay.* 
Adj? 


ses 

M4«y. 


THUBSDAT,  Auo'T  9.    IN  COMVBNTION 

Art:  IV.  Sect.  6.'»  Mf  Bandolph  expressed  his  dissatisfaction  at 
the  disap-eement  yesterday  to  Sect.  5.  concerning  money  bills,  as 
endangering  the  success  of  the  plan,  and  extremely  objectionable  in 
itself;  and  gave  notice  that  he  shoold  move  for  a  reconsideration  of 
the  vote. 

Mr  WiujAHSON  said  he  had  formed  a  like  intention. 

Mr  Wilson,  gave  notice  that  he  shI  move  to  reconsider  the  vote, 
requiring  seven  instead  of  three  years  of  Citizenship  as  a  qualification 
of  candidates  for  the  House  of  Representatives. 

Art.  IV.  Sec     6  &  7.»-  ♦  Agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Art.  V.  Sect  !.'■•  taken  up. 

M'.  Wilson  objected  to  vacancies  in  the  Senate  being  supplied 
by  the  Executives  of  the  States.  It  was  unnecessary  as  the  Legis- 
latures will  meet  so  frequently.  It  removes  the  appointment  too  far 
from  the  people ,  the  Executives  in  most  of  the  States  being  elected 
by  the  Legislatures.  As  he  had  always  thought  the  appointment  of 
the  Executives ^  by  the  Legislative  department  wrong:  so  it  was  still 
more  so  that  the  Executive  should  elect  into  the  Legislative  de- 
partment. 

Mr  RANDOiiPH  thought  it  necessary  in  order  to  prevent  incon- 
venient chasms  in  the  Senate.  In  some  States  the  Legislatures  meet 
but  once  a  year.  As  the  Senate  will  have  more  power  &  consist  of  a 
smaller  number  than  the  other  House,  vacancies  there  will  be  of 
more  consequence.  The  Executives  might  be  safely  trusted  he  thought 
vrith  the  appointment  for  so  short  a  time. 

M'.  Elseworth.  It  is  only  said  that  the  Executive  may  supply 
the » vacancies.    When  the  Legislative  meeting  happens  to  be  near,  the 


In  the  tr«ti«cript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jersey,  Pennsvlvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 7;  New  Rampahire.  Massa- 
I  !uiBetts,  Connecticut,  North  Carolina,  no — »." 
'  See  page  338. 

•  The  word*  "  was  taken  up  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  were  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
■  See  page  339. 

'  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  word  "  Executives  "  is  in  the  singular  in  the  transcript ' 
The  word  "  the "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


864      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

power  wiU  not  be  exerted    Aa  there  wiU  be  but  two  memben  from 
a  State  vacancies  may  be  of  great  moment. 

MI  W1LUAM8ON.  Senators  may  resign  or  not  accept.  This  pro- 
vision is  therefore  absolutely  necessary. 

On  the  question  for  striking  out  "  vacancies  shall  be  supplied 
by »  Executives 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  G  no.  N.  J.  no.  F*.  ay.  M"?  div*  Vf  no 
N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

Mt  Williamson  moved  to  insert  after  "  vacancies  shaU  be  sup- 
plied  by  the  Executives,"  the  foUowing*  words  "  unless  other  pro- 
vision  shall  be  made  by  the  Legislature  "  [of  the  State]. 

Mt  Elsewobth.  He  was  wUling  to  trust  the  Legislature,  or  the 
Executive  of  a  State,  but  not  to  give  the  former  a  discretion  to  refer 
appointments  for  the  Senate  to  whom  they  pleased. 

*  Question  on  Mr  Williamson  'e  motion 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  G'  no.  N.  J.  no.  K  no.  Ml  ay  V»  no  N 
C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay." 

Mr  Madison  in  order  to  prevent  doubts  whether  resignations  could 
be  made  by  Senators,  or  whether  they  could  refuse  to  accept,  moved  to 
strike  out  the  words  after  "  vacancies,"  &  insert  the  words  "  happen- 
ing by  refusals  to  accept,  resignations  or  otherwise  may  be  supplied 
by  the  Legislature  of  the  State  in  the  reprewntation  of  which  such 
vacancies  shall  happen,  or  by  the  Executive  thereof  until  the  next 
meeting  of  the  Legislature  " 

M'.  Govt  Morris  this  is  absolutely  necessary,  otherwise,  as  mem- 
bers chosen  into  the  Senate  are  disqualified  from  being  appointed  to 
any  office  by  Sect.  9.  of  this  art:  it  wiU  be  in  the  power  of  a  Legis- 
lature  by  appointing  a  man  a  Senator  ag«  his  consent,  to  deprive  the 
U.  S.  of  his  services. 

The  motion  of  Ml  Madison  was  aiifreed  to  nem.  con. 
M'.  RANDOifH  called  for  division  of  the  Section,  so  as  to  leave 
a  dirtinet  question  on  the  last  words  "  each  member  shall  have  one 
vote."   He  wished  this  last  sentence  to  be  postponed  until  the  recon- 
sideration should  have  taken  place  on  Sect.  5.  Art.  IV.  concerning 


•The  word  "the"  is  here  inierted  in  the  tranecript. 
In  the  tranecript  the  vote  reade:  "Pennsylvania,  aye— 1;  New  Hampshire, 
Massachusetts,  Connecticut  New  Jersev,  Virginia.  North  Carolina.  South  Caro- 
lina. Georgia,  no— 8;  Maryland,  divided." 

!  IJ*  *"'■'*  "  'o'lo'rtnf "  i»  omitted  in  tho  transcript. 
•  l''*^!^*"'"!*  "  On  the^'  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript, 
in   the  transcript   the   vote   reads:    "Maryland,    North   Carolina.   South 

T«r^,   P.^T"'-'^^:  ^'^  Hampshire.  Massachusetts.  Connecticut.  New 
Jersey.  Pennsylvania,  Virginia,  no — 8." 


SESSION  OF  THUBSDAY,  AUGUST  9,  1787  365 

money  billa.    If  that  section  should  not  be  reinstated  his  plan  would 
be  to  vary  the  representation  in  the  Senate. 

M!  Stbono  concurred  in  W.  Randolphs  ideaa  on  this  point 
in  Read  did  not  consider  the  section  as  to  money  bills  of  any 
advantage  to  the  larger  Sutes  and  had  voted  for  striking  it 
out  as  being  viewed  in  the  same  light  by  the  larger  States.  If 
it  was  considered  by  them  as  of  any  value,  and  as  a  condition  of 
the  equality  of  votes  in  the  Senate,  he  had  no  objection  to  its  being 
re-instated. 

Mr  Wilson— iP  Elsewobth  &  Mt  Madison  ui^d  that  it  was  of  no 
advantage  to  the  larger  States,  and  that  it  might  be  a  dangerous 
source  of  contention  between  the  two  Houses.  All  the  principal 
powers  of  the  Nat!  Legislature  had  some  relation  to  money. 

Dorf  Franklin,  considered  the  two  clauses,  the  originating  of 
money  bills,  and  the  equality  of  votes  in  the  Senate,  as  essentially 
connected  by  the  compromise  which  had  been  agreed  to. 

Col.  Mason  said  this  was  not  the  time  for  discussing  this  point 
When  the  originating  of  money  bUls  shaU  be  reconsidered,  he  thought 
it  could  be  demonstrated  that  it  was  of  essential  importance  to  re- 
strain  the  right  to  the  House  of  Representatives  the  immediate  choice 
of  the  people. 

M!  WiLLUMSON.  The  State  of  N.  C.  had  agreed  to  an  equality  in 
the  Senate,  merely  in  consideration  that  money  bills  should  be  con- 
fined to  the  other  House:  and  he  was  surprised  to  see  the  Smaller 
States  forsaking  the  condition  on  which  they  had  received  their 
equality. 

^  Question  on  the  Section  l.»  down  to  the  last  spntence 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P*  no*  Del.  ay.  M*  ay. 
Virg»  ay  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  div^  Geo.  ay.» 

M'  Randolph  moved  that  the  last  sentence 
have  one  vote."  be  postponed 

It  was  observed  that  this  could  not  be  necessary;  as  in  case  the 
section  as  to  originating*  bills  should  not  be  reinstated,  and  a 
revision  of  the  Constitution  should  ensue,  it  w1  still  be  proper  that 
the  members  should  vote  per  Capita.    A  postponement  of  the  pre- 

*  In  the  printed  Journal  Pensylvania.  ay. 


'  each  member  shall 


!  S*  """■^"  "  ^  *''«  "  "e  •>«"*  inserted  in  the  tranecript 
script         '^°^^'  "'"*  "e"""""  "•  •ttb«titttted  for  "Section  1"  in  the  trw 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:   "New  Hampshire    Connectimit.   Van, 
Jersey    Delaware,  ManrJand,  VlrginU.  Georgia.  >^7^';VM^h^Zv^ 
sylvania..  North  Carolina,  n.^-S;  South  Carolina.  divid.;d.'^^^ 
The  word  "  money  "  ia  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 


866      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

eeding  sentence  allowing  to  each  State  2  members  w^  have  been  more 
proper 

Mt  Mason,  did  not  mean  to  propose  a  change  of  this  mode  of 
voting  per  capita  in  any  event.  But  as  there  might  be  other  modes 
proposed,  he  saw  no  impropriety  in  postponing  the  sentence.  Each 
State  may  have  two  members,  and  yet  may  have  unequal  votes.  He 
said  that  unless  the  exclusive  *  originating  of  money  bills  should  be 
restored  to  the  House  of  Representatives,  he  should,  not  from  ob- 
stinacy, but  duty  and  conscience,  oppose  throughout  the  equality  of 
Representation  in  the  Senate. 

MT  Gov'.  Morris.  Such  declarations  were  he  supposed,  addressed 
to  the  smaller  States  in  order  to  alarm  them  for  their  equality  in 
the  Senate,  and  induce  them  agf'  their  judgments,  to  concur  in  re- 
storing the  section  concerning  money  bills.  He  would  declare  in  hii 
turn  that  as  he  saw  no  prospect  of  amending  the  Constitution  of  the 
Senate  &  considered  the  section  relating  to  money  bills  as  intrinsically 
bad,  he  would  adhere  to  the  section  establishing  the  equality  at  aU 
events. 

M!  Wilson.  It  seems  to  have  been  supposed  by  some  that  the 
section  concerning  money  bills  is  desirable  to  the  large  States.  The 
fact  was  that  two  of  those  States  [Pt  &  Vf]  had  uniformly  voted 
ag!'  it  without  reference  to  any  other  part  of  the  system. 

Mr  Randolph,  urged  as  Col.  Mason  had  done  that  the  sentence 
under  consideration  was  connected  with  that  relating  to  Money 
bills,  and  might  possibly  be  affected  by  the  result  of  the  motion  for 
reconsidering  the  latter.  That  the  postponement  was  therefore  not 
improper. 

'  Question  for  postponing  "  each  member  shall  have  one  vote." 

N.  H.  div*  Mas.  no.  C  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  no.  Del.  no.  W  no. 
V»  ay.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.   Geo.  no.* 

The  words  were  then  agreed  to  as  part  of  the  section. 

M!  Randolph  then  gave  notice  that  he  should  move  to  reconsider 
this  whole  Sect:  1.  Art.  V.  as  connected  with  the  5.  Sect.  art.  IV, 
as  to  which  he  had  already  given  such  notice. 

Art.  V.  Sect.  2?  ♦•»  taken  up. 

W  Govt  Morris  moved  to  insert  after  the  words  "  immediately 


'  The  trords  "  right  of  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Virginia,  North  Carolina,  aye— 2; 
Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Blaryland, 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 8;  New  Hampshire,  divided." 

•  See  page  330. 

'  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAY,  AUGUST  9,  1787  867 

after,"  the  foUowing  •'  they  shall  be  aaaembled  in  consequence  of—" 
which  was  agreed  to  nem.  con.  as  was  then  the  whole  Sect.  2.» 
Art:  V.  Sect,  3.»»  taken  up. 

M!  Gov'.  Moittm  moved  to  insert  14  instead  of  4  years  citizenship 
•8  a  qualification  for  Senators:  urging  the  danger  of  admitting 
rtrangers  into  our  public  Councils.  Mr  Pinknst  2*  him 

Mt  EuBwoRTH.  was  opposed  to  the  motion  as  discouraging  meri- 
torious aliens  from  emigrating  to  this  Country. 

Sir  PmxNK  As  the  Senate  is  to  have  the  power  of  making 
treaties  &  managing  our  foreign  affairs,  there  is  peculiar  danger  and 
impropriety  in  opening  its  door  to  those  who  have  foreign  attach- 
ments. He  quoted  the  jealousy  of  the  Athenians  on  this  subject  who 
made  it  death  for  any  stranger  to  intrude  his  voice  into  their  Legia- 
lative  proceedings. 

Col.  Mason  highly  approved  of  the  policy  of  the  motion.  Were 
it  not  that  many  not  natives  of  this  Country  had  acquired  great 
merit*  during  the  revolution,  he  should  be  for  restraining  the  eligip 
bility  into  the  Senate,  to  natives. 

Ml  Madison,  was  not  averse  to  some  restrictions  on  this  subject; 
but  could  never  agree  to  the  proposed  amendment.  He  thought 
any  restriction  however  in  the  ContUtution  unnecessary,  and  im- 
proper, unnecessary;  because  the  Nat'  Legisl*!  is  to  have  the  right 
of  regulating  naturalization,  and  can  by  virtue  thereof  fix  different 
periods  of  residence  as  conditions  of  enjoying  different  privileges  of 
Citizenship:  Improper;  because  it  will  give  a  tincture  of  illiberality 
to  the  Constitution:  because  it  will  put  it  out  of  the  power  of  the 
Nat'  Legislature  even  by  special  acts  of  naturalization  to  confer  the 
full  rank  of  Citizens  on  meritorious  strangers  &  because  it  will  dis- 
courage the  most  denreable  elass  of  people  from  emigrating  to  the 
U.  S.  Should  the  proposed  Constitution  have  the  intended  effeet  of 
giving  stability  &  reputation  to  our  Gov«»  great  numbers  of  respect- 
able Europeans:  men  who  love  liberty  and  wish  to  partake  its  bless- 
ings, will  be  ready  to  transfer  their  fortunes  hither.  All  such  would 
feel  the  mortification  of  being  marked  with  suspicious  incapacitations 
though  they  s*  not  covet  the  public  honors  He  was  not  appre- 
hensive that  any  dangerous  number  of  strangers  would  be  appointed 
by  the  State  Legislatures,  if  they  were  left  at  liberty  to  do  so:  nor 
that  foreign  powers  would  make  use  of  strangers  as  instruments  for 


'The  figure  "2"  ii  omitted  in  the  transcript. 
'  See  page  339. 

•The  words  "was  then"  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
The  word  "credit"  is  subrtituted  in  the  transcript  for  "merit.' 


368      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

their  purposes.  Their  bribes  woald  be  expended  «»  men  whow  eir> 
cumstancea  would  rather  itifle  than  excite  jealoiuy  &  watchfulneaa  in 
the  public. 

M'  BuTLn  was  decidedly  opposed  to  the  admitsira  of  foreignen 
without  a  long  residence  in  the  Country.  They  bring  with  them, 
not  only  attachmenta  to  other  Countries ;  but  ideas  of  Qovi  so  distinct 
from  ours  that  in  every  point  of  view  they  are  dangerous.  He 
acknowledged  that  if  he  himself  had  been  called  into  public  life 
within  a  short  time  after  his  coming  to  America,  his  foreign  habits 
opinions  &  attachments  would  have  rendered  him  an  improper  agent 
in  public  affairs.  He  mentioned  the  great  strictness  observed  in 
Great  Britain  on  this  subject. 

Doc'  Franklin  was  not  agf  a  reasonable  time,  but  should  be 
verj'  sorry  to  see  any  thing  like  illiberality  inserted  in  the  Constitu- 
tion. The  people  in  Europe  are  friendly  to  this  Country.  Even  in 
the  Country  with  which  we  have  been  lately  at  war.  we  have  now  4 
had  during  the  war,  a  great  many  friends  not  only  among  the  people 
at  large  but  in  both  houses  of  Parliament.  In  every  other  Country 
in  Europe  all  the  people  are  our  friends.  We  found  in  the  course 
of  the  Revolution  that  many  strangers  served  us  faithfully-  and  that 
many  natives  took  part  ag"  their  Country.  When  foreigners  after 
looking  about  for  some  other  Country  in  which  they  can  obtain  more 
happiness,  give  a  preference  to  ours,  it  is  a  proof  of  attachment  which 
onght  to  excite  our  confidence  &  affection. 

Mt  Randolph  did  not  know  but  it  might  be  problematical  whether 
emigrations  to  this  Country  were  on  the  whole  useful  or  not:  but 
be  could  never  agree  to  the  motion  for  disabling  them  for  14  years 
to  participate  in  the  public  honours.  He  reminded  the  Convention 
of  the  language  held  by  our  patriots  during  the  Revolution,  and  the 
principles  laid  down  in  all  our  American  Constitutions.  Many  for- 
eigners may  have  fixed  their  fortunes  among  us  under  the  faith  of 
these  invitations.  All  persons  under  this  description,  with  all  others 
who  would  be  affected  by  such  a  regulation,  would  enlist  themselves 
under  the  banners  of  hostility  to  the  proposed  System,  He  would 
go  as  far  as  seven  yean,  but  no  farther. 

M:  Wilson  said  he  rose  with  feelings  which  were  perhaps  peculiar; 
mentioning  the  circumstance  of  his  not  being  a  native,  and  the  possi- 
bility, if  the  ideas  of  some  gentlemen  should  be  pursued,  of  his  being 
incapacitated  from  holding  a  place  under  the  very  Constitution, 
which  he  had  shared  in  the  trust  of  making.  He  remarked  the 
illiberal  complexion  which  the  motion  would  give  to  the  System,  &  the 
jffect  which  a  good  system  would  have  in  inviting  meritorious  for- 


SESSION  OP  THTRSDAT,  AUGUST  9,  1787 


369 


eipnera  among  at,  and  the  diKOuragement  A  mortification  thry  moat 
fefl  from  the  degrading  diaerimination,  now  propoaed.  He  had  him- 
self experienced  thia  mortification.  On  hia  removal  into  Maryland, 
h<-  found  himaelf,  from  defect  of  reaidenee,  onder  certain  legal  in- 
capacitiea  which  never  ceaaed  to  produce  ehagrin,  thongh  he  aaanredly 
did  not  deaire  ft  wonld  not  hare  accepted  the  offleea  to  which  they 
related.  To  be  appointed  to  a  place  may  be  matter  of  indifference. 
To  be  incapable  of  being  appointed,  ia  a  cireomatanee  grating  and 
mortifying. 

Mr  Goy!  Monus.  The  leaaon  we  are  tangfat  ia  that  we  ahoold  be 
Koremed  as  mach  by  our  reaaon,  and  aa  little  by  onr  feelinga  aa 
possible.  What  ia  the  language  of  Reaaon  on  thia  aabjeetf  That  we 
should  not  be  polite  at  the  expenee  of  pmdence.  There  waa  a  modera- 
tion in  all  things.  It  ia  aaid  that  aome  tribes  of  Indiana,  carried 
their  hospitality  ao  far  as  to  offer  to  strangers  their  wivea  ft  dang^ters. 
Was  this  a  proper  model  for  oaf  He  woald  admit  them  to  his  houae, 
he  would  invite  them  to  hia  table,  would  provide  for  then  comfortable 
lodgings ;  but  woald  not  carry  the  complaisance  ao  far  as,  to  bed  them 
with  his  wife.  He  would  let  them  worship  at  the  same  altar,  but  did 
not  choose  to  make  Priesta  of  them.  He  ran  over  the  privileges  which 
emigrants  wonld  enjoy  among  ua,  thongh  they  should  be  deprived  of 
that  of  being  eligible  to  the  great  offices  of  Government;  observing 
that  they  exceeded  the  privileges  allowed  to  foreigners  in  any  part 
nf  the  world;  and  that  as  every  Society  from  a  great  nation  down 
to  a  club  had  the  right  of  declaring  the  conditions  on  which  new 
members  shoulc!  be  admitted,  there  could  be  no  room  for  complaint. 
As  to  those  philosophical  gentlemen,  those  Citizens  of  the  World  aa 
they  call  themselves,  He  owned  he  did  not  wish  to  see  any  of 
them  in  our  public  Councils.  He  would  not  trust  them.  The  men 
who  can  shake  off  their  attachments  to  their  own  Country  can  never 
love  any  other.  These  attachments  are  the  wholesome  prejndicea 
which  uphold  all  Governments,  Admit  a  frenchman  into  your 
Senate,  and  he  will  study  to  increase  the  commerce  of  France:  an 
Englishman,*  he  will  feel  an  equal  biass  in  favor  of  that  of  England. 
It  has  been  said  that  The  Legislatures  will  not  chuse  foreigners,  at 
least  improper  ones.  There  was  no  knowing  what  Legislatures  would 
do.  Some  appointments  made  by  them,  proved  that  every  thing 
ought  to  be  apprehended  from  the  cabals  practised  on  such  occasions. 
He  mentioned  the  case  of  a  foreigner  who  left  this  State  in  disgrace, 
and  worked  himself  into  an  appointment  from  another  to  Congress. 


'  The  word  "  ai.d  "  ia  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


370     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

*  Qantion  on  tha  motion  of  Mr  Govt  Momus  to  inaert  14  in  pl<u»e 
of  4  years 

N.  H.  ajr.  Mm.  no.  Q.  no.  N.  J.  ajr.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
V?  no.   N.  C.  no.   8.  C.  «y.   Geo.  ay.« 

On  13  yean,  moved  Mr  Gov?  Morris  * 

N.  H.  ay.  Mm.  no.  C^  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
Vf  no.   N.  C.  no.   8.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay. 

On  10  yeara  moved  by  Qcn!  Pi.nknit  * 

N.  H.  ay.  Mm.  no.  C  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M*  no. 
Vf  no.   N.  C.  no.   8.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay. 

jy.  Frankun  reminded  the  Convention  that  it  did  not  follow 
from  an  omiaaion  to  iniert  the  reitriction  in  the  Constitntion  that 
the  pereona  in  queation  w1  be  aetnally  choaen  into  the  Legialatore. 

Mr  RuTUOGE.  7  yeara  uf  Citixenahip  have  been  required  for  the 
Houae  of  Bepieaentativea.  Snrely  a  longer  term  ia  requiait*  for 
the  Senate,  which  will  have  more  power. 

M!  WiLUAMSON.  It  is  more  neceaaary  to  goard  the  Senate  hi 
thia  caae  than  the  other  Hooae.  Bribery  &  cabal  can  be  more  eaaUy 
practiaed  in  the  choice  of  the  Senate  which  ia  to  be  made  by  the 
Legialatares  composed  of  a  few  men,  than  of  the  Houae  of  Rept«> 
Mnt^  who  will  be  choaen  by  the  people. 

ii'.  Randolph  will  agree  to  9  years  with  the  expectation  that  it 
will  be  reduced  to  seven  if  Mr  Wilson's  motion  to  reconsider  the  vot* 
fixing  7  years  for  the  House  of  Representatives  should  product  a 
reduction  of  that  period. 

On  a  *  question  for  9  years. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mm.  no.  CI  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  no.  Del.  ay.  M*  no. 
Vf  ay.   N.  C.  divl   8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.« 

The  term  "Resident"  wm  struck  out,  ft  "inhabitant"  in- 
serted nem.  con. 

Art.  7  Sect.  3,  H  amended '  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

■  The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  tranicript  the  Tote  readi:  "New  Hampshire,  New  Jers^,  Sonth 
Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 4;  Mataachusettt.  Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland   Virginia,  North  Carolina,  no — 7." 

*  In  \  he  transcript  this  sentence  reads  as  follows :  "  On  the  question  for 
thirteen  y<«rs,  moved  by  Mr.  OouTemeur  Ilorris,  it  was  negatived,  as  above." 
The  vote  b  /  States  is  omitted. 

*  The  phrase  "  the  votes  were  the  same,"  ia  here  inserted  in  the  transcript, 
and  the  vote  by  States  is  omitted. 

•In  the  transcript  the  word  "a"  is  strlclten  out  and  "the"  is  written 
above  it. 

*  In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  New  Jersey,  Delaware, 
Virginia,  South  Carolina,  O.nrRia,  aye— 6;  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Penn- 
sylvania, Marvland,  no — 4;  North  Carolina,  divided." 

'  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  THUB8DAY,  AUGUST  9,  1787 


871 


Sect  4.*  acncd  to  nem.  eon.* 

Art.  VI.  lect.  !.'■  •  taken  up. 

M'.  MAonoN  ft  Hi  Oovf  Mmiin  moved  to  atrike  oat  "  each  Houm  " 
A  to  iniert "  the  Houae  of  RepreeenUtivet  " ;  the  right  of  the  Legiala- 
turee  to  regoUte  the  time*  ft  placet  ftc  in  the  election  of  Senaton 
being  involTed  in  the  ri^t  of  appointing  them,  which  waa  dis- 
agreed to. 

*  Diviaion  of  the  qneation  being  called,*  it  waa  takan  on  the  flrtt 
part  down  to  "bat  their  proTiaiona  concerning  fte" 

The  first  part  waa  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Ht  PiKKmcT  ft  M!  RuTUDoi  moved  to  atrike  oat  tha  remaining 
part  vis  bat  their  proviaiona  concerning  them  may  at  anjr  time 
be  altered  by  the  Legialatare  of  the  United  Statea."  The  SUtea 
they  contended  could  ft  moat  be  relied  on  in  aneh  eaaea. 

MT  Oho«um.  It  would  be  aa  improper*  take  this  power  from 
the  Nat'  Legialatare,  aa  to  Restrain  the  British  Parliament  from 
regulating  the  eireamstanees  of  elections,  leaving  this  boainess  to 
the  Counties  themaelves- 

W  Madbok.  The  necessity  of  a  Gen!  Gov*  snppoaea  that  the 
State  Legialatorea  will  aometimea  fail  or  refaae  to  eonaolt  i\e  com- 
mon intereat  at  the  ezpence  of  their  local  conveniency '  or  prejudicea. 
The  policy  of  referring  the  appointment  of  the  Hooae  of  Represen- 
tatives to  the  people  and  not  to  the  Legislatarea  of  tha  SUtes,  sup- 
poses that  the  result  will  be  somewhat  influenced  by  the  mode.  This 
view  of  the  question  seems  to  decide  that  the  Legialatnres  of  the 
States  ought  not  to  have  the  uneontrouled  right  of  regulating  the 
times  places  ft  manner  of  holding  elections.  These  were  words  of 
great  latitude.  It  waa  impoaaible  to  foresee  all  the  abuses  that 
might  be  made  of  the  discretionary  power.  Whether  the  electors 
should  vote  by  ballot  or  viva  voce,  ahould  assemble  at  this  place  or 
that  place;  should  be  divided  into  districts  or  all  meet  at  one  place, 
ah*  all  vote  for  all  the  represenUtives ;  or  all  in  a  district  vote  for  a 
number  allotted  to  the  diatriet;  theae  ft  many  other  pointa  would 
depend  on  the  Legialatures,  and  might  materially  affect  the  appoint- 
ments.   Whenever  the  State  Legislatures  had  a  favorite  measure  to 


S«ct.  4  WM 


'In  tlie  tr«n»crlpt  thlt  fentence  reads  at  followi:  "Article  8, 
agreod  to  nem.  con." 

'  The  word*  "  wat  then  "  are  here  inierted  ta  the  tranKript. 

•  i  hp  word  "  A  "  is  here  ineerted  in  the  tranecript. 

•  The  word  "  for  "  is  here  inierted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  to  "  it  here  intertod  in  the  tranecript.  _ 

'  The  word  "  conTeniency  "  ia  changed  to  "  convenience  "  in  the  tranicript. 


372      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

carry,  they  would  take  care  so  to  mould  their  regulations  aa  to 
favor  the  candidates  they  wished  to  succeed.  Besides,  the  inequality 
of  the  Representation  in  the  Legislatures  of  particular  States,  would 
produce  a  like  in<'quality  in  their  representation  in  the  Nat!  Legis- 
lature, as  it  was  presumable  that  the  Counties  having  the  power  in 
the  former  case  would  secure  it  to  themselves  in  the  latter.  What 
danger  could  there  be  in  giving  a  controuling  power  to  the  Nat' 
Legislature f  Of  whom  was  it  to  consist?  1.^  of  a  Senate  to  be 
chosen  by  the  State  L:  gislatures.  If  the  latter  therefore  could  be 
trusted,  their  representatives  could  not  be  dangerous.  2.^  of  Repre- 
sentatives elected  by  the  same  people  who  elect  the  State  Legisla- 
tures; surely  then  if  confidence  is  due  to  the  latter,  it  must  be  due 
to  the  former.  It  seemed  as  improper  in  principle,  though  it  might 
be  less  inconvenient  in  practice,  to  give  to  the  State  Legislatures  this 
great  authority  over  the  election  of  the  Representatives  of  the  people 
in  the  Oea'  legislature,  as  it  would  be  to  give  to  the  latter  a  like 
power  over  the  election  of  their  Pepresentatives  in  the  State  Legis- 
latures. 

MI  Kino.  If  this  power  be  not  given  to  the  Nat?  Legislature,  their 
right  of  judging  of  the  returns  of  their  members  may  be  frustrated. 
No  probability  has  been  suggested  of  its  being  abused  by  them 
Altho  this  scheme  of  erecting  the  Gen.'  Qov.*  on  the  authority  of  the 
State  Legislatures  has  been  fatal  to  the  federal  establishment,  it 
would  seem  as  if  many  gentlemen,  still  foster  the  dangerous  idea. 

lyp  Govt  MoRBis-  observed  that  the  States  might  make  false  returns 
and  then  make  no  provisions  for  new  elections 

Mr  Sherman  did  not  know  but  it  might  be  best  to  retain  the 
clause,  though  he  had  himself  sufficient  conddence  in  the  State  Legis- 
latures.   The  motion  of  JK  P.  &  M?  R.  did  not  prevail- 

The  word  "respectively"  was  inserted  after  the  word  "State" 

On  the  motion  of  MT  Read  the  word  "  their  "  was  struck  out,  ft 
"  regulations  in  such  cases  "  inserted  in  place  of  "  provisions  con- 
cerning them."  the  clause  then  reading — "  but  regulations  in  each  of 
the  foregoing  cases  may  at  any  time,  be  made  or  altered  by  the  Legis- 
lature of  the  U.  S  "  This  was  meant  to  give  the  Nat!  Legislature  a 
power  not  only  to  alter  the  provisions  of  the  States,  but  to  make 
regulations  in  case  the  States  should  fail  or  refuse  altogether. 

Art.  /I.  Sect.  1.  as  thus  amended  was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Adjourned. 


•  The  figures 
the  transcript. 


1"  and  "2"  are  changed  to  "First"  and  "Secondly"  in 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  10,  1787 


373 


FsiDAT  Atro!'  10.    m  Convkntion 


Art.  VI.  Sect.  2.^  *  taken  up. 

M;  Pinknet.     The  Committee  as  he  had  conceived  were  m- 
stnicted  to  report  the  proper  qualifications  of  property  for  the 
memberfl  of  the  Nat!  Legislature;  instead  of  which  they  have  re- 
ferred the  task  to  the  Nat'  Legislature  itself.    Should  it  be  left  on 
this  footing,  the  first  Legislature  wiU  meet  without  any  particular 
qualifications  of  property:  and  if  it  should  happen  to  consist  of  nch 
men  they  might  fix  such  such  quaUfications  as  may  be  too  favorable  to 
the  rich ;  if  of  poor  men,  an  opposite  extreme  might  be  ^-in  into.    He 
was  opposed  to  the  establishment  of  an  undue  aristocratic  influence 
in  the  Constitution  but  he  thought  it  essential  that  the  members  of 
the  Legislature,  the  Executive,  and  the  Judges,  should  be  possessed 
of  competent  property  to  make  them  independent  &  respectable.    It 
was  prudent  when  such  great  powers  were  to  be  trusted  to  connect 
the  tie  of  property  with  that  of  reputation  in  securing  a  faithful 
administration.    The  Legislature  would  have  the  fate  of  the  Nation 
put  into  their  hands.    The  President  would  also  have  a  very  great 
influence  on  it.    The  Judges  would  have  not  only » important  causes 
between  Citizen  &  Citizen  but  also,  where  foreigners  are  concerned. 
They  will  even  be  the  Umpires  between  the  U.  States  and  individual 
States  as  well  as  between  one  State  &  another.    Were  he  to  fix  the 
quantum  of  property  which  should  be  required,  he  should  not  think 
of  less  than  one  hundred  thousand  doUars  for  the  President,  half 
of  that  sum  for  each  of  the  Judges,  and  in  like  proportion  for  the 
members  of  the  Nat»  Legislature.    He  would  however  leave  the  sums 
blank.    His  motion  was  tbit  the  President  of  the  U.  S.  the  Judges, 
and  members  of  the  Legislature  should  be  required  to  swear  that 
they  were  respectively  possessed  of  a  cleared*  unincumbered  Estate 
to  the  amount  of  in  the  case  of  the  President  &c  &c. 

W.  RuTLiDOE  seconded  the  motion;  observing  that  the  Committee 
had  reported  no  qualifications  because  they  could  not  agree  on  any 
among  themselves,  being  embarrassed  by  the  danger  on  one  side  of 
displeasing  the  people  by  making  them  high,  and  on  the  other  of 
rendering  them  nugatory  by  making  them  low. 


'  See  page  3.39.  ,  .     ,^    ^  •  * 

'  The  word  "  was  "  i»  here  inserted  in  the  tranfionpt. 
•  The  words  "  have  not  only  "  are  transposed  in  the  transcript  to  resa 

°°^* The' word  "clear"  is  tubstituted  in  the  transcript  for  "cleared." 


'not 


374      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

JK  EusEWORTH.  The  different  circuinstances  of  different  parts  of 
the  U.  S.  and  the  probable  difference  between  the  present  and  future 
circumstances  of  the  whole,  render  it  improper  to  have  either  uni- 
form or  fixed  qualifications.  Make  them  so  high  as  to  be  useful  in  the 
S.  States,  and  they  will  be  inapplicable  to  the  E.  States.  Suit  them 
to  the  latter,  and  they  will  serve  no  purpose  in  the  former.  In  like 
manner  what  may  be  accomodated  to  the  existing  State  of  things 
among  us,  may  be  very  inconvenient  in  some  future  state  of  them. 
He  thought  for  these  reasons  that  it  was  better  to  leave  this  matter 
to  the  Legislative  discretion  than  to  attempt  a  provision  for  it  in 
the  Constitution. 

Doctr  Franklin  expressed  his  dislike  of  ^  every  thing  that  tended 
to  debase  the  spirit  of  the  common  people.  If  honesty  was  often  the 
companion  of  wealth,  and  if  poverty  was  exposed  to  peculiar  tempta- 
tion, it  was  not  less  true  that  the  possession  of  property  increased 
the  desire  of  more  property.  Some  of  the  greatest  rogues  he  was 
ever  acquainted  with,  were  the  richest  rogues.  We  should  remember 
the  character  which  the  Scripture  requires  in  Rulers,  that  they  should 
be  men  hating  covetousness.  This  Constitution  will  be  much  read 
and  attended  to  in  Europe,  and  if  it  should  betray  a  great  partiality 
to  the  rich,  will  not  only  hurt  us  in  the  esteem  of  the  most  liberal 
and  enlightened  men  there,  but  discourage  the  common  people  from 
removing  into'  this  Country. 

The  Motion  of  Mr  Pinkney  was  rejected  by  so  general  a  no, 
that  the  States  were  not  called. 

M^  Madison  was  opposed  to  the  Section  as  vesting  an  improper 
&  dangerous  power  in  the  Legislature.  The  qualifications  of  electors 
and  elected  were  fundamental  articles  in  a  Republican  Ckiv!  and 
ought  to  be  fixed  by  the  Constitution.  If  the  Legislature  could  regu- 
late those  of  either,  it  can  by  degrees  subvert  the  Constitution.  A 
Republic  may  be  converted  into  an  aristocracy  or  oligarchy  as  well 
by  limiting  the  number  capable  of  being  elected,  as  the  number 
authorised  to  elect  In  all  cases  where  the  representatives  of  the 
people  will  have  a  personal  interest  distinct  from  that  of  their  Con- 
stituents, there  was  the  same  reason  for  being  jealous  of  them,  as 
there  was  for  relying  on  them  with  full  confidence,  when  they  had 
a  common  interest.  This  was  one  of  the  former  cases.  It  was  as 
improper  as  to  allow  them  to  fix  their  own  wages,  or  their  own 
privileges.  It  was  a  power  also  which  might  be  made  subservient  to 
the  views  of  one  faction  ag!*  another.     Qualifications  founded  on 

« The  word  "  to  "  ia  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  of." 
'  The  word  "  to "'  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  into." 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  10,  1787 


375 


artificial  distinctions  may  be  devised,  by  the  stronger  in  order  to 
keep  out  partizans  of  a  weaker  faction. 

M'.  Elsewobth,  admitted  that  the  power  was  not  unexceptionable ; 
but  he  could  not  view  it  as  dangerous.  Such  a  power  with  regard 
to  the  electors  would  be  dangerous  because  it  would  be  much  more 

liable  to  abuse.  , 

Ml  Gov!  MoBRB  moved  to  strike  out  "  with  regard  to  property 
in  order  to  leave  the  Legislature  entirely  at  Urge.  ,£,,,, 

MI  WiLLLVMSON.  This  could »  surely  never  be  admitted.  Should 
a  majority  of  the  Legislature  be  composed  of  any  particular  descrip- 
tion of  men,  of  lawyers  for  example,  which  is  no  improbable  supposi- 
tion the  future  elections  might  be  secured  to  their  own  body. 

ip  Madison  observed  that  the  British  Parliam?  possessed  the 
power  of  regulating  the  qualifications  both  of  the  electors,  and  the 
elected;  and  the  abuse  they  had  made  of  it  was  a  lesson  worthy  of 
our  attention.  They  had  made  the  changes  in  both  cases  subservient 
to  their  own  views,  or  to  the  views  of  political  or  Beligious  parties. 

"  Question  on  the  motion  to  strike  out  with  regard  to  property 
NH.no.    Ma8.no.    C^  ay.    N.  J.  ay.    P?  ay.    Del.no.*    M?  no. 
V»  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.»  ,.    r     •  ,  ^ 

Mr  RuTLffiGE  was  opposed  to  leaving  the  power  to  the  Legislature. 
He  proposed  that  the  qunliflcations  should  be  the  same  as  for  members 

of  the  State  Legislatures.  ^  ,     .    ,  *  +v- 

M;  Wilson  thought  it  would  be  best  on  the  whole  to  let  the 
Section  go  out.  A  uniform  rule  would  probably  be  never «  fixed  by 
the  Legislature,  and  this  particular  power  would  constructively  ex- 
clude every  other  power  of  regulating  qualifications. 
On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  Art.  VI.  Sect.  21- 
N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C\  no.  N.  J.  no.  K  no.  M4  no.  Vf  no. 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.»  ,„  «    .   „ 

On  Motion  of  W.  Wilson  to  reconsider  Art:  IV.  Sect.  2;  so  as 
to  restore  3  in  place  of  seven  years  of  citizenship  as  a  qualification 
for  being  elected  into  the  House  of  Represent*. 

•  In  the  printed  Journal  Delaware  did  not  vote. 


•  The  word  "  would  "  i»  eubetituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  could." 

'  Thp  words  "  On  the "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  thrtranscr^t  the  vote  reads:  "  Connecticut  New  J"«.y  Pennsy  vania. 
Georgia    av^-^:   New   Hampshire.   Massachusetts,  Delaware.*   Moryland,  Vir- 

einia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no — 7."  „ 

^      •  In  the  transcript  the  words  "  be  never  "are  transposed  to  read  '  "ever  be^ 

■  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  New  Hampshire.  M"«aehu9ett8.  Gwi^a^ 
nye-3;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey.  Pennsylvania,  Maryland.  VirginU.  North 
Carolina.  South  Carolina,  no— 7." 


i 


4 


376      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

N.  H,  no.  Mas.  no.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Del.  ay.  W  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

Monday  next  was  then  assigned  for  the  reconsideration:  all  the 
States  being  ay.  except  Mass*?  &  Georgia 

Art:  VI.  Sect.  3.'*  taken  up. 

]\n  Qhorum  contended  that  less  than  a  Majority  in  each  House 
should  be  made  of  *  Quorum,  otherwise  great  delay  might  happen  in 
business,  and  great  inconvenience  from  the  future  increase  of 
numbers. 

Ml  Mebceb  was  also  for  less  than  a  majority.  So  great  a  num- 
ber will  put  it  in  the  power  of  a  few  by  seceding  at  a  critical  mo- 
ment to  introduce  comnilsions,  and  endanger  the  GoTemm!  Ex- 
amples of  secession  have  already  happened  in  some  of  the  States. 
He  was  for  leaving  it  to  the  Legislature  to  fix  the  Quorum,  as  in 
Great  Britain,  where  the  requisite  number  is  small  &  no  inconveni- 
ency '  has  been  experienced. 

Col.  Mason.  This  is  a  valuable  &  necessary  part  of  the  plan. 
In  this  extended  Country,  embracing  so  great  a  diversity  of  interests, 
it  would  be  dangerous  to  the  distant  parts  to  allow  a  small  number 
of  members  of  the  two  Houses  to  make  laws.  The  Central  States 
could  always  take  care  to  be  on  the  Spot  and  by  meeting  earlier  than 
the  distant  ones,  or  wearying  their  patience,  and  outstaying  them, 
could  carry  such  measures  as  they  pleased.  He  admitted  that  in- 
conveniences might  spring  from  the  secession  of  a  small  number: 
But  he  had  also  known  good  produced  by  an  apprehension,  of  it. 
He  had  known  a  paper  emission  prevented  by  that  cause  in  Virginia. 
He  thought  the  Constitution  as  now  moulded  was  founded  on  sound 
principles,  and  was  disposed  to  put  into  it  extensive  powers.  At  the 
same  time  he  wished  to  guard  ag!'  abuses  as  much  as  possible.  If 
the  Legislature  should  be  able  to  reduce  the  number  at  all,  it  might 
reduce  it  as  low  as  it  pleased  &  the  U.  States  might  be  governed  by 
a  Juncto — A  majority  of  the  number  which  had  been  agreed  on, 
was  so  few  that  he  feared  it  would  be  made  an  objection  ag?  the 
plan. 

M?  KiKQ  ar     "  >ed  there  might  be  some  danger  of  giving  an  ad- 


'  In  the  transcxpt  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  aye — 6;  New  Hampshire,  Maiaachuaetts, 
New  Jersey,  South  Carolina,  Oeorgia,  no— 5." 

'  See  page  339. 

'  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  In  the  traoBoript  the  word  "  of  "  is  crossed  out  and  "  a  "  is  written  above  it. 

•  The  word  "  inconveniency "  is  changed  to  "  inconvenience "  in  the  tran- 
script. 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  10,  1787 


377 


vantage  to  the  Central  States;  but  was  of  opinion  that  the  public 
inconveniency '  on  the  other  side  was  more  to  be  dreaded. 

M'  Gov!  MoRBiB  moved  to  fix  the  quorum  at  33  members  in  the 
H.  of  Bep!  &  14  in  the  Senate.  This  is  a  majority  of  the  present 
nambei',  and  will  be  a  bar  to  the  Legislature:  fix  the  number  low 
and  they  will  generally  attend  knowing  that  advantage  may  be 
taken  of  their  absence,  the  Secession  of  a  small  number  ought  not 
to  be  suffered  to  break  a  quorum.  Such  events  in  the  States  may 
have  been  of  little  consequence.  In  the  national  Councils,  they  may 
be  fatal.  Besides  other  mischiefs,  if  a  few  can  break  up  a  quorum, 
they  may  seize  a  moment  when  a  particular  part  of  the  Continent 
may  be  in  need  of  immediate  aid,  to  extort,  by  threatening  a  seces- 
sion, some  unjust  &  selfish  meaanra. 

M!  Mebceb  2^  the  motion 

W-  Kino  said  he  had  just  prepared  a  motion  which  instead  of 
fixing  the  numbers  proposed  by  Mr  Gov'.  Morris  as  Quorums,  made 
thow  the  lowest  numbers,  leaving  the  Legislature  at  liberty  to  in- 
crease them  or  not.  He  thought  the  future  increase  of  members  would 
render  a  majority  of  the  whole  extremely  cumbersome. 

M!  IVlEBcsB  agreed  to  substitute  M?  Kings  motion  in  place  of 
M'.  Morris's. 

W  Elsewobth  was  opposed  to  it.  It  would  be  a  pleasing  ground 
of  confidence  to  the  people  that  no  law  or  burden  could  be  imposed 
on  them,  by  a  few  men.  He  reminded  the  movers  that  the  Constitu- 
tion proposed  to  give  such  a  discretion  with  regard  to  the  nimiber 
of  Representatives  that  a  very  inconvenient  number  was  not  to  be 
apprehended.  The  inconveniMicy  *  of  secessions  may  be  guarded  ag? 
by  giving  to  each  House  an  authority  to  require  the  attendance  of 
absent  members. 

Ml  Wilson  concurred  in  the  sentimoits  of  M?  Elseworth. 

W  Gerrv  seemed  to  think  that  some  further  precautions  titan 
merely  fixing  the  quorum  might  be  necessary.  He  observed  that  as 
17  wl  be  a  majority  of  a  quorum  of  33,  and  8  of  14,  questions  might 
by  possibility  be  carried  in  the  H.  of  Eep!  by  2  large  States,  and  in 
the  Senate  by  the  same  States  with  the  aid  of  two  small  ones.— Hi 
proposed  that  the  number  for  a  quorum  in  the  H.  of  Rep!  should  not 
exceed  50  nor  be  less  than  33,  leaving  the  intermediate  discretion  to 
the  Legislature. 

Mr  Kino,   as  the  quorum  could  not  be  altered  with^  the  concurrence 


'  The  word  "  inconvenieDcy "  U  changed  to  "  inconvenience "  in  the  Iran- 
Boript. 


878      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

of  the  President  by  leu  than  %  of  each  Honae,  he  thought  there  eoold 
be  no  danger  in  trusting  the  Legislature. 

Mt  Cabrol  thia  will  be  no  security  agt*  a  continuance  of  the 
qnonuns  at  33  &  14.  when  they  ought  to  be  increased. 

On '  question  on  Mf  Kings  motion  "  that  not  less  than  33  in  the  H. 
of  Rep!  nor  less  than  14  in  the  Senate  sh?  constitute  a  Quorum,  which 
may  be  increased  by  a  law,  on  additions  to^  members  in  either 
House. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  i^.  d  no.  N.  J.  no.  V.  no.  DeL  ay.  Ml  no. 
V?  no.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

Ml  Randolph  &  M^  Madison  moved  to  add  to  the  end  of  Art.  VI. 
Sect  3.  "  and  may  be  authorised  to  compel  the  attendance  of 
absent  members  in  such  maimer  &  under  such  penalties  as  each 
House  may  provide."  Agreed  to  by  all  except  Pen?  which  was 
divided. 

Art:  VI.  Sect  3.*  agreed  to  as  amended  Nem.  con. 

Sect.  4.*)  .        ,  . 

Sect  5.4 '^«^^*" 

M!  Madison  observed  that  the  right  of  expulsion  (Art.  VI.  Seet. 
6.)  *  was  too  important  to  be  exercised  by  a  bare  majority  of  a 
quorum .  and  in  emergencies  of  faction  might  be  dangerously  abused. 
He  moved  that  "  with  the  concurrence  of  %  "  might  be  inserted 
between  may  &  expel. 

M?  Randolph  &  M^  Mason  approved  the  idea. 

HP  Gtovt  Morris.  This  power  may  be  safely  trusted  to  a  ma- 
jority. To  require  more  may  produce  abuses  on  the  side  of  the 
minority.  A  few  men  from  factious  motives  may  keep  in  a  member 
who  ought  to  be  expelled. 

M^  Carrol  thought  that  the  concurrence  of  %  at  least  ought  to 
be  required. 

On  the  question  for  *  requiring  %  in  cases  of  expelling  a  member.' 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C*.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  div*.  Del.  ay.  M^  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 


nem.  con.* 


'  The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Delaware,  aye — 2;  New 
Hampshire,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 9." 

*  The  word  "  was  "  it  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  See  page  330. 

'In  the  transcript  this  reads  M  follows:  "Sections  4  and  S,  of  Article  6, 
were  then  agreed  to,  nem.  con." 

'  The  word  "  for  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  by  States  is  omitted  and  the  following  sentence 
it  inserted:  "ten  States  were  in  the  affirmative,  Pennsylvania,  divided." 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  10,  1787 


879 


Art.  VI.  Sect.  6.  as  thua  amended  >  agreed  to  nem.  cod. 

Art:  VI.  Sect.  7  »• »  taken  up. 

M!  Govt  MoFin  urged  that  if  the  yeaa  ft  nays  were  proper  at  all 
any  individual  ought  to  be  authorised  to  call  for  them:  and  moved 
an  amendment  to  that  effect.-  The  small  States  may  otherwise  be 
under  a  disadvantage,  and  find  it  difflcolt,  to  get  a  concurrence  of  H 

W-  Randolph  2^  y*.  motion. 

Mr  Sherman  had  rather  strike  oat  the  yeas  &  nays  altogether. 
They  never  have  done  any  good,  and  have  done  much  mischief. 
They  are  not  proper  as  the  reasons  governing  the  voter  never  appear 
along  with  them. 

M^  Elsewobth  was  of  the  same  opinion 

Col.  Mason  liked  the  Section  as  it  stood,  it  was  a  middle  way 
between  the  two  extremes. 

Ml  Ghobuh  was  opposed  to  the  motion  for  allowing  a  single 
member  to  call  the  yeas  ft  nays,  and  recited  the  abuses  of  it,  in 
Mass*!  1  *  in  stu£Sng  the  journals  with  them  on  frivolous  occasions. 
2  ^  in  misleading  the  people  who  never  know  the  reasons  determining 
the  votes. 

The  motion  for  allowing  a  single  member  to  call  the  yeas  ft 
nays  was  disag^  to  nem.  con. 

iK  Carrol.  &  Ml  Bandco-ph  moved  Here  insert  the  motion  at  the 
bottom  of  page  •  * 

•  to  strike  out  the  words  "  each  House  "  and  to  insert  the  words 
"  the  House  of  Representatives  "  in  Sect.  7.  Art.  6.  and  to  add  to  the 
Section  the  words  "  and  any  member  of  the  Senate  shall  be  at  liberty 
to  enter  his  dissent." 

Mr  Govt  Morris  ft  Mr  Wilson  observed  that  if  the  minority  were 
to  have  a  right  to  enter  their  votes  &  reasons,  the  other  side  would 
have  a  right  to  complain,  if  it  were  not  extended  to  them :  ft  to  allow 
it  to  both,  would  fill  the  Journals,  like  the  records  of  a  Court,  with 
replications,  rejoinders  &c. 

'  Question  on  Ml  Carrols  motion  to  allow  a  member  to  enter  his 
dissent 


'  The  wordi  "  wag  then  "  are  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 
'  See  pane  339.  .  .,    „  ,     ^t. 

■The  figures  "1"  and  "2"  are  changed  to  "flrat"  and  "•acondly"  in  the 
transcript. 

•  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  words  "  On  the"  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


880     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

N.  H.  no.  Mm.  no.  Con!  no.  N.  J.  no.  P*  no.  Del.  no.  M?  «y. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

Ml  Oewt  moved  to  strike  oat  the  words  "  when  it  shall  be  aetiae 
in  its  legislative  capacity  "  in  order  to  extend  the  provision  to  the 
Senate  when  exercising  its  peculiar  authorities  and  to  insert  "  except 
such  parts  thereof  as  in  their  judgment  require  secrecy  "  after  the 
words  "  publish  them."— [It  was  thought  by  others  that  provision 
should  be  made  with  respect  to  these  when  that  part  came  under  con- 
sideration which  proposed  to  vest  those  additional  authorities  in 
the  Senate.] 

On  this  question  for  striking  out  the  words  "  when  acting  in  its 
Legislative  capacity  " 

N.  H.  div^  Mas.  ay.  C*.  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 

Adjourned 


SaTUBOAT  Auo"T  11.     IN  COXVBNTIOK 

JK  Madison  &  Mt  RtjTLiDOE  moved  "that  each  House  shall  keep 
a  journal  of  its  proceeding,*  &  shall  publish  the  same  from  time  to 
time;  except  such  part  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Senate,  when  acting 
not  in  its  Legislative  capacity  as  may  be  judged  by  that  House  to 
require  secrecy." 

Mr  Mercer.  This  implies  that  other  powers  than  legislative  will 
be  given  to  the  Senate  which  he  hoped  would  not  be  given. 

Mr  MadiBon  &  M!  R's  motion,  was  disag*  to  by  all  the  States  ex- 
cept Virgf 

M!  Qerrt  ft  Ml  Shabhan  moved  to  insert  after  the  words  "  pub- 
lish them  "  the  following  "  except  such  as  relate  to  treaties  ft  mili- 
tary operations."  Their  object  was  to  give  each  House  a  discretion 
in  such  cases. — On  this  question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  ay.  CJ  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  no.  Del.  no,  V?  no.  N.  C. 
no.    S.  C.  no.    Gteo.  no.* 


•In  the  trantcript  the  rot*  reads:  "Maiyhmd,  Virginia,  South  Carolina, 
aye— 3;  New  Hampshire,  MasMMhuaetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  PennsrlTania, 
Delaware,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8."  *        -> 

...  !^"  ^^^  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 7;  Connecticut  New 
Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  no— 3;  New  Hampshire,  divided." 

*  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  proceeding  "  in  the  plural. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  aye— 2; 
New  Hampshire,  New  Jersey.  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  CaroUns. 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8."  ^^ 


SESSION  OP  SATUBDAY,  AUGUST  11,  1787  381 

IIP  EiocwoRTH.  At  the  cUum  is  objectionable  in  ao  many  ahapea, 
it  may  aa  well  be  atnick  ont  altogether.  The  Legialatnre  will  not  fail 
to  publiah  their  proeeedinga  from  time  to  time.  The  people  will  call 
for  it  if  it  ahould  be  improperly  omitted. 

M!  Wilson  thoui^t  the  expunging  of  the  danae  would  be  very 
improper.  The  people  have  a  right  to  know  what  their  Agents  ar« 
doing  or  have  done,  and  it  ahould  not  be  in  the  option  of  the  Legia- 
lature  to  conceal  their  proeeedinga.  Beaidea  aa  thia  is  a  clause  in 
the  existing  confederation,  the  not  retaining  it  would  fumiah  the 
advcrsariea  of  the  reform  with  a  pretext  by  which  week  &  auspicious 
minds  may  be  easily  misled. 

W  Masok  thought  it  would  give  a  just  alarm  to  the  people,  to 
make  a  conclave  of  their  Legislature. 

Mr  SiiEHifAN  thought  the  Legialature  might  be  trusted  in  thia 
case  if  in  any. 

'Question  on'  1!*  part  of  the  section  down  to  "publiah  them  " 
inclusive : '  Agreed  to  nem.  c<m. 

'  Question  on  the  words  to  follow,  to  wit  except  such  parta  thereof 
as  may  in  their  Judgment  require  secrecy."  N.  H.  div*  Mas.  ay. 
C  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  no.  Del.  no.  W  ao.  VJ  ay.  N.  C.  ay.  S.  C.  no. 
Geo.  ay.* 

The  remaining  part  as  to  yeas  &  nays, — '  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Art  VI.  Sect.  £.•■ '  taken  up. 

Mr  Kino  remarked  that  the  section  authorized  the  2  Houses 
to  adjourn  to  a  new  place.  He  thought  this  inconvenient.  The 
mutability  of  place  had  dishonored  the  federal  Gov!  and 
would  require  as  strong  a  cure  aa  we  could  devise.  He  thought 
a  law  at  least  should  be  made  neceaaary  to  a  removal  of  the  Seat 
of  Govt 

MT  Madison,  viewed  the  subject  in  the  aame  light,  and  joined  with 
M'.  King  in  a  motion  requiring  a  law. 

IV.  GovERNr  MoBKis  proposed  the  additional  alteration  by  insert- 
ing the  words  "during  the  Session"  &c." 

Mr  Spaioht.  thia  will  fix  the  seat  of  Gov*  at  N.  T.  The  present 
Congress  will  convene  them  there  in  the  first  instance,  and  they  will 


■  The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

'The  word  "the"  i«  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  words  "  it  was  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

Mn  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New 
Jirspy,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  South  Carolina,  no— 4;  New  Hampshire,  divided." 

'  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  S«^  page  340. 

'  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


382      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

ne\'er  be  able  to  remove;  especially  if  the  Preside  shoald  be  *  Northern 
Man. 

Mr  Oovi  Momia  rach  a  dittnut  ia  inconiiitent  with  all  Oor^ 
MT  Madison  supposed  that  a  central  place  for  the  seat  of  Qovl 
was  so  just  and  w1  be  so  must  insisted  on  by  the  H.  of  Representa* 
tives,  that  though  a  law  should  be  made  requisite  for  the  purpose,  H 
could  &  would  be  obtained.  The  necessity  of  a  central  lesidenee  of 
the  Gov!  w^  be  much  greater  under  the  new  than  old  Gov!  The 
members  of  th<f  new  Gov.'  w1  be  more  numerous.  They  would  be 
taken  more  from  the  interior  parts  of  the  States;  they  w1  not  like 
members  of  y*.  present  Congf  come  so  often  from  the  distant  States 
by  water.  Aa  the  powers  &  objects  of  the  new  Gov!  would  be  far 
greater  y?  heretofore,  more  private  individuals  wl  have  business  call- 
ing  them  to  the  seat  of  it,  and  it  was  more  necessary  that  the  Gov! 
should  be  in  that  position  from  which  it  could  contemplate  with  the 
most  equal  eye,  and  sympathize  most  equally  with,  every  part  of  the 
nation.  These  considerations  he  supposed  would  extort  a  removal 
even  if  a  law  were  made  necessary.  But  in  order  to  quiet  suspicions 
both  within  &  without  doors,  it  might  not  be  amiss  to  authorize  the 
2  fionses  by  a  concurrent  vote  to  adjourn  at  their  first  meeting  to 
the  most  proper  place,  and  to  require  thereafter,  the  sanction  of  a 
law  to  their  removal. 

The  motion  was  accordingly  moulded  into  the  following  form— 
"  the  Legislature  shall  at  their  first  assembling  determine  on  a  place 
at  which  their  future  sessions  shall  be  held ;  neither  House  shall  after- 
wards, during  the  session  of  the  House  of  Rep*,  without  the  consent 
of  the  other,  adjourn  for  more  than  three  days,  nor  shall  they  adjourn 
to  any  other  place  than  such  as  shall  have  been  fixt  by  law" 

M!  Gerrt  thought  it  would  be  wrong  to  let  the  Presid!  cheek  the 
will  of  the  2  Houses  on  this  subject  at  all 

M'  WiLUAMSON  supported  the  ideas  of  M'.  Spaight 
M^  Carrol  was  actuated  by  the  same  apprehensions 
MI  Mercer,  it  will  serve  no  purpose  to  require  the  two  Houses 
at  their  first  meeting  to  fix  on  a  place.    They  will  never  agree. 

After  some  further  expressions  from  others  denoting  an  appre- 
hension that  the  seat  of  Gov!  might  be  continued  at  an  improper  place 
if  a  law  should  be  made  necessary  to  a  removal,  and'  the  motion 
above  stated  with  another  for  recommitting  the  section  had  been 
negatived,  the  section  was  left  in  the  shape  it  which  it  was  reported 
as  to  this  point.    The  words  "during  the  session  of  the  Legislature 

'  The  word  "  a  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
■  The  word  "  after  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  SATUBDAY,  AUGUST  11,  1787  383 

were  prefixed  to  the  8*  Mctioa— «nd  the  Uit  Motence  "But  this 
regulation  ihall  not  extend  to  the  Senate  when  it  ahall  exerciae  the 
powers  mention '  in  the  article  "  atruck  atruck  out     The 

8:"  section  aa  amended  was  then  agreed  to. 

M:  Randolph  moved  according  to  notice  to  reconaider  Art:  IV. 
Sect.  5.'  concerning  money-bills  which  had  been  struck  out  He 
arinied  1.'  that  he  had  not  wished  for  this  privilege  whilst  a  propor- 
tional Representation  in  the  Senate  waa  in  contemplation,  but  since 
an  equality  had  been  fixed  in  that  house,  the  large  Statea  would  re- 
quire this  compensation  at  least.  2*  that  it  would  make  the  plan 
more  acceptable  to  the  people,  because  they  will  consider  the  Senate 
u  the  more  aristocratie  body,  and  will  expect  that  the  usual  guards 
ag;'  its  influence*  be  provided  according  to  the  example  in*  0, 
Britain.  3.«  the  privilege  wiU  give  some  advantage  to  the  House  of 
Rep!  if  it  extends  to  the  originating  only— but  still  more,  if  it  re- 
strains the  Senate  from  amendl  4.»  he  called  on  the  smaller  States  to 
poncur  in  the  measure,  aa  the  condition  by  which  alone  the  compromise 
had  entiUed  th«n  to  an  eruality  in  the  Senate.  He  signified  that  he 
should  propose  instead  of  the  original  Section,  a  clause  specifying 
that  the  bills  in  question  should  be  for  the  purpose  of  Revenue,  in 
order  to  repel  y?  objection  ag«  the  extent  of  the  words  "raiting 
money,"  which  might  happen  incidentally,  and  that  the  Senate  ahoul' 
not  80  amend  or  alter  aa  to  increase  or  diminish  the  sum;  in  order 
to  obviate  the  inconveniences  urged  ag?  a  restriction  of  the  Senate  to 
a  simple  affirmative  or  negative. 

in  WiLUAV BON  2*?"  the  motion 

Ml  PiNKNKT  waa  sorry  to  oppose  the  opportunity  gentlemen  asked 
to  have  the  question  again  opened  for  discussion,  but  as  he  considered 
it  a  mere  waste  of  time  he  could  not  bring  himself  to  consent  to  it 
He  said  that  notwithstanding  what  had  been  said  as  to  the  com- 
promise, he  always  considered  this  section  as  making  no  part  of  it 
The  rule  of  Representation  in  the  1*  branch  was  the  true  condition 
of  that  in  the  2^  branch.— Several  others  spoke  for  &  agJ*  the  recon- 
sideration, but  without  going  into  the  merits— On  the  Question  to 
reconsider 

N.  H.  ay.    Mas.  ay.    C?  ay.    N.  J.»  ay.    P!  ay.    Del.  ay.    W  no. 

•  In  the  printed  Jourmil  N.  Jertey — no. 


■  The  word  "mentioned  "  is  subrtituted  in  the  transcript  for  " mention." 

;  The  word  "  will "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript, 
fie  word  "of"  !a  substituted  in  the  tranaeript  for  "in." 


II 
1 1 


384      DEBATES  IN  TUB  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

V?  •>'.     N.C.   v.     8.C.  dlv^     Geo.   ay.—'     Mooday   wm  tbm 

aatigned — ' 

Adji 


Monday  Aco?*  13.    Im  Cokvintioh 

Art.  IV.  Sect.  2  ••  ♦  reconiiidered— 

M'  Wilson  A  M'.  Randolph  moved  to  rtrike  out  "  7  ytart  "  and 
inieft  "  4  yean,"  a*  the  requi«'  e  term  of  Citizenihip  to  qualify  for 
the  HouM  of  Rep?  SH  Wileon  jatd  it  waa  very  proper  the  eleeton 
ahoold  govern  themselvea  by  thii  conaideration  j  but  unneeeaary  A 
improper  that  th^j  Conttitution  should  Cuain  them  down  to  it. 

MI  Oerxt  wifihed  that  in  future  the  eligibUity  might  be  confined 
to  Nativea.  Foreign  powers  will  intermeddle  in  our  affair*,  and 
spare  no  expence  to  influence  them.  Persons  having  foreign  attaeh- 
ments  will  be  sent  among  us  A  insinuated  into  our  councils,  in  order 
to  be  made  instrumenta  for  their  purposes.  Every  one  knows  the 
vast  sums  laid  out  in  Europe  for  secret  services.  He  waa  not  singular 
in  these  ideas.  A  great  many  of  the  most  influencial  men  in  llaa^ 
reeaoned  in  the  same  manner. 

W  Williamson  moved  to  insert  9  years  instead  of  seven.  He 
wished  this  Country  to  acquire  aa  fast  as  powible  national  habits. 
Wealthy  emigranta  do  more  harm  by  their  luzoriotu  examples,  than 
good,  by  the  money,  they  bring  with  them. 

Col.  Hamilton  waa  in  general  ag?*  embarrassing  the  Ck»v<  with 
minute  restrictions.  There  was  on  one  side  the  possible  danger  that 
had  been  suggested.  On  the  other  side,  the  advantage  of  encouraging 
foreigners  was  obvious  &  admitted.  Persons  in  Europe  of  moderate 
fortunes  will  be  fond  of  coming  here  where  they  will  be  on  a  level 
with  the  first  Citizens.  He  moved  that  the  aeetion  be  so  altered  as 
to  require  merely  citizenship  A  inhabitancy.  The  right  of  deter- 
mining the  rule  of  naturalization  wiU  then  leave  a  discretion  to 
the  Legislature  on  this  subject  which  will  answer  every  purpose. 

M^  Madison  seconded  the  motion.  He  wished  to  maintain  the 
character  of  liberality  which  had  been  professed  in  all  the  Constitu- 
tions &  publications  of  America.    He  wished  to  invite  foreignei-s  of 


■In  the  transcript  the  rote  re«l.:  "New  Hampshire,  M.M.chu«ttj,  Con 
necticut,  New  JerJy.'  Pennsylvania.  Unaware.  V.r^ma.  North  Oarollna. 
OeorBia.  ay^-9;  Maryland,  no— 1;  South  Carolina,  divided       ^.     .^^.^ 

"The  words  "for  the  reconsideration"  are  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

'  Si-e  page  338.  .  .      ^    .  i  » 

•  The  word  "  being  "  Is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  18.  1787  388 

merit  4  rtpobllcan  principle  •««»»«  iw.  AinerJ««  wm  Indebtwl  to 
,miirratioM  for  her  •ettlement  *  Proip«rity.  Th.t  p  rt  of  Amenc* 
which  hid  encoortged  their,  mort  h»d  •dv»nc«d  mort  rapidly  In 
jopuUtkm.  .fricultnre  A  the  artt  There  wa.  t  po«ible  dan«e» 
h.  admitted  that  men  with  foreign  predUection.  might  obtain  appoint- 
ntenU  but  it  wu  by  no  meuia  probable  that  it  would  happen  in  any 
.lanKeroua  degree.  For  the  aame  nuon  that  they  would  be  attached 
to  their  native  Country,  our  own  people  w«  prefer  nativm  of  thii 
(vuntrj-  to  them.  Experience  proved  thia  to  be  the  caae.  Inatancee 
wer^  rare  of  a  foreigner  being  elected  by  the  people  within  any 
.h..rt  apace  after  hie  eoming  among  na.  If  bribery  waa  to  be  prae- 
tisid  by  foreign  powert,  it  would  not  be  attempted  among  the  electors 
but  among  the  elected;  and  among  nativea  having  full  Confidence 
of  the  people  not  among  atrangera  who  would  be  regarded  with  a 
jeoulouB  eye. 

Mr  WiLiOH,  cited  Pennaylvt  at  a  proof  of  the  advantage  of  en- 
couraging emigrations.  It  waa  perhaps  the  youngest  [except 
Georgia]  aettlem?  on  the  Atlantic;  yet  It  waa  at  least  among  the 
foremost  in  population  ft  pr"n>erity.  He  remarked  that  almost  aU 
the  Gen!  officers  of  the  Peu.  .e  of  the  Ute  army  were  foreignera. 
And  no  complaint  had  ever  b-  a  made  against  their  fidelity  "  merit 
Three  of  her  deputies  to  the  ConvenUon  [Mr  H.  Moms,  iK  Fita- 
immons  ft  himself]  were  also  not  natives.  He  had  no  objection  to 
Col  Hanultona  motion  ft  would  withdraw  the  one  made  by  himself. 

jr.  BuTuai  waa  strenuous  agr*  admitting  foreigners  into  our 
public  Councils. 

'  Question  on  Col.  Hamilton's  Motion 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  DeL  no.  M"  ay. 
V?  ay.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

» Question  on  M*.  Williamson's  moution  to  insert  9  years  mstead  of 

''"^  n!  H.  ay.   Maa«!  no.   G  no.   N.  J.  no.   PT  no.   Del.  no.   M?  no. 
Vfno.    N.  C.no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.'  .    ,,   ^       « 

JP  Wilson's  renewed  the  motion  for  4  yearn  instead  of  7.  ft  on 

question  


•The  word.  "On  the"  are  here  ii  wrted  in  the  t""»"'P*-     „.      w._,„a 

•In  the  tranicrlpt  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Penniylvania,  M'ryJ*™- 
VirginU,  aye-S"  New  Hampahire,  Ma.a«;hu.ett..  New  Jeraey.  Delaware,  ilortl. 
Carolina,  South  Carolina.  Oforjfla.  BO— 7."  Tf.„„.w«i    Rnnth   CaroltiM. 

•In  the  tranwrrlpt  the  rote  reada:  "Njr  Hf»»P*'"'J^?*  Vf'^l^ 
Georgia,  av^-3:  MaJaachuaetta,  ConnertJcut.  New  Jeraey,  PennajrWaBla.  Dela- 
ware, Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  n<K- 8. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  inaerted  in  the  tranacrlpt. 


386      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  no.  C^  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M^  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

IE  Govi  Morris  moved  to  add  to  the  end  of  the  section  [art  IV. 
S.  2]  a  proviso  that  the  limitation  of  seven  years  should  not  affect 
the  rights  of  any  person  now  a  Citizen. 

M^  Mercer  2**"  the  motion.  It  was  necessary  he  said  to  prevent 
a  disfranchisement  of  persons  who  had  become  Citizens  under  and 
on »  the  faith  &  according  to  the  laws  &  Constitution  from  being  on 
a '  level  in  all  respects  with  natives. 

M:  Rutlidge.  It  might  as  well  be  said  that  all  qualifications  are 
disfranchisem".  and  that  to  require  the  age  of  25  years  was  a  dis- 
franchisement. The  policy  of  the  precaution  was  as  great  with  regard 
to  foreigners  now  Citizens ;  as  to  those  who  are  to  be  naturalized  in 

future. 

art  Sherman.  The  U.  States  have  not  invited  foreigners  nor 
pledged  their  faith  that  they  should  enjoy  equal  privileges  with 
native  Citizens.  The  Individual  States  alone  have  done  this.  The 
former  therefore  are  at  liberty  to  make  any  discriminations  they  may 
judge  requisite. 

Mr  Ghorum.  When  foreigners  are  naturalized  it  w1  seem  as  if 
they  stand  on  an  equal  footing  with  natives.  He  doubted  then  the 
propriety  of  giving  a  retrospective  force  to  the  restriction. 

MI  Madison  animadverted  on  the  peculiarity  of  the  doctrine  of 
m  Sharman.  It  was  a  subtilty  by  which  every  national  engagement 
might  be  evaded.  By  parity  of  reason,  wherever  our  public  debts, 
or  foreign  treaties  become  inconvenient  nothing  more  would  be  neces- 
earj'  to  relieve  us  from  them,  than  to  new  *  model  the  Constitution.  It 
was  said  that  the  U.  S.  as  such  have  not  pledged  their  faith  to  the 
naturalized  foreigners,  &  therefore  are  not  bound.  Be  it  so,  &  that 
the  States  alone  are  bound.  Who  are  to  form  the  New  Constitution 
by  which  the  condition  of  that  class  of  citizens  is  to  be  made  worse 
than  the  other  class?  Are  not  the  States  y^  Agents?  will  they  not 
be  the  members  of  itt  Did  they  not  appoint  this  Convention?  Are 
not  they  to  ratify  its  proceedings?  Wm  not  the  new  Constitution 
be  their  Act?  If  the  new  Constitution  then  violates  the  faith  pledged 
to  any  description  of  people  will  not  the  makers  of  it,  will  not  the 

'In   the   tran»cript    the   vote    reads:    "Connecticut,    Maryland,    VirginU. 

,ye— 3;   New  Hampshire,  MaaaachusettB,  New  Jeraey.  PennaylvanU,  Delaware, 

North  Cariiina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8." 

»  The  words  "  and  on  "  are  omitted  in  the  trangcript.  ^ 

•The  words  "their  actual"  are  substituted  in  the  tranacript  tor     oeing 

•  In  the  transcript  the  word  "  new "  is  crossed  out  and  the  syllable  "  re  "  is 
wiitt^i  alMve  it. 


If 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  13,  1787 


387 


States,  be  the  violators.  To  justify  the  doctrine  it  must  be  said  that 
the  States  can  get  rid  of  their  •  obligation  by  iv^ising  the  Constitu- 
tion, though  they  could  not  do  it  by  repealing  '  le  law  under  which 
foreigners  held  their  privileges.  He  considered  th's  a  matter  of  real 
importance.  It  woud  expose  us  to  the  reproaches  of  all  those  who 
should  be  affected  by  it,  reproaches  which  w^  soon  be  ecchoed  from 
the  other  side  of  the  Atlantic ;  and  would  unnecessarily  enlist  among 
the  Adversaries  of  the  reform  a  very  considerable  body  of  Citizens : 
We  should  moreover  reduce  every  State  to  the  dilemma  of  rejecting 
it  or  of  violating  the  faith  pledged  to  a  part  of  its  Citizens. 

Mr  Oovf  Morris  considered  the  case  of  persons  under  25  years,* 
as  very  different  from  that  of  foreigners.  No  faith  could  be  pleaded 
by  the  former  in  bar  of  the  regulation.  No  assurance  had  ever  been 
given  that  persons  under  that  age  should  be  in  all  cases  on  a  level 
with  those  above  it.  But  with  regard  to  foreigners  among  us,  the 
faith  had  been  pledged  that  they  should  enjoy  the  privileges  of 
Citizens.  If  the  restriction  as  to  age  had  been  confined  to  natives, 
&  had  left  foreigners  under  25  years,^  eligible  in  this  case,  the  dis- 
crimination w"?  have  been  an  equal  injustice  on  the  other  side. 

M;  PiNKNEY  remarked  that  the  laws  of  the  States  had  varied  much 
the  terms  of  naturalization  in  different  parts  of  America;  and  con- 
tended that  the  U.  S.  could  not  be  bound  to  respect  them  on  such  an 
occasion  as  the  present.    It  was  a  sort  of  recurrence  to  first  principles. 

Crl.  2klAS0N  was  struck  not  like  [Ml  Madison]  with  the  pecu- 
liarity,  but  the  propriety  of  the  doctrine  of  Ml  Sharman.  The  States 
have  formed  different  qualifications  themselves,  for  enjoying  differ- 
ent rights  of  citizenship.  Greater  caution  w^  be  necessary  in  the 
outset  of  the  Gov!  than  afterwards.  All  the  great  objects  w*  be 
then '  provided  for.  Everything  would  be  then  set  in  Motion.  If  per- 
sons among  us  attached  to  G.  B.  should  work  themselves  into  our 
Councils,  a  turn  might  be  given  to  our  affairs  &  particularly  to  our 
Commercial  regulations  which  might  have  pernicious  consequences. 
The  great  Houses  of  British  Merchants  will  spare  no  pains  to  in- 
sinuate the  instruments  of  their  views  into  the  Gov? 

Mr  "Wilson  read  the  clause  in  the  Constitution  of  Pen?  giving  to 
foreigners  after  two  years  residence  all  the  rights  whatsoever  of 
citizens,  combined  it  with  the  article  of  Confederation  making  the 
Citizens  of  one  State  Citizens  of  all,  inferred  the  obligation  Pen! 
was  under  to  maintain  the  faith  thus  pledged  to  her  citizens  of  foreign 


I  !i 


■  «5ii 


'  The  word  "  the  "  ia  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  their." 

'  The  words  "  of  sjte  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  words  "  be  then  "  are  transposed  in  the  transcript  to  read 


then  be." 


388      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

birth,  and  the  jnst  complaints  which  her  failure  would  authorize :  He 
observed  likewise  that  the  Princes  &  States  of  Europe  would  avafl 
themselves  of  such  breach  of  faith  to  deter  their  subjects  from  emi- 
grating to  the  U.  S. 

M?  Merger  enforced  the  same  idea  of  a  breach  of  faith. 

M(  Baldwin  could  not  enter  into  the  force  of  the  arguments 
ag^  extending  the  disqualification  to  foreigners  now  Citizens.  The 
discrimination  of  the  place  of  birth,  was  not  more  objectionable  than 
that  of  age  which  all  had  concurred  in  the  propriety  of. 

^  Question  on  the  proviso  of  W  Gov^  Morris  in  favor  of  foreigners 
now  Citizens 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  ay.  Del.  no.  Mary? 
ay.    Vf  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

Mr  Carrol  moved  to  insert  "  5  years  "  instead  "  of  seven,"  in 
Section  21  Art:  IV 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  Ci  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  div^  Del.  no.  W  ay. 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

The  Section  [Art  IV.  Sec.  2.]  as  formerly  amended  was  then 
agreed  to  nem.  con. 

MT  Wilson  moved  that  [in  Art :  V.  Sect.  3.*  ]  9  years  be  reduced 
to  seven,  which  was  disag^  to  and  the  3?  section  [Art.  V.]  confirmed 
by  the  following  vote. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  CI  no.  N.  J.  ay.  K  no.  DeL  ay.  M*.  no. 
V»  ay.  N.  C.  ay.  S.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ay.» 

Art.  IV.  Sec  5.*  being  reconsidered. 

Mr  Randolph  moved  that  the  clause  be  altered  so  as  to  read— 
"  Bills  for  raising  money  for  the  purpose  of  revenue  or  for  apprfr 
priating  the  same  shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Representatives 
and  shall  not  be  so  amended  or  altered  by  the  Senate  as  to  increase 
or  diminish  the  sum  to  be  raised,  or  change  the  mode  of  levying  it, 
or  the  objects  of  its  appropriation." — He  would  not  repeat  his  reasons, 
but  barely  remind  the  members  from  the  smaller  States  of  the  com- 
promise by  which  the  larger  States  were  entitled  to  this  privilege. 


'  The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsyl- 
vania, Maryland,  Virginia,  aye — S;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Delawarat 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 6." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Maryland,  Virginia, 
aye — 3;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  North  C•rolfau^ 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 7;  Pennsylvania,  divided." 

•  Sre  page  .S.30. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  New 
Jersey,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  ajt — 8; 
Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  no— 3." 

•  See  page  338. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  13,  1787 


389 


Col.  Mason.    This  amendment  removea  all  the  objections  urged 
agf  the  section  as  it  stood  at  first   By  specifying  purpotet  of  revenue, 
it  obviated  the  objection  that  the  Section  extended  to  all  bills  under 
which  money  might  incidentally  arise.    By  anthorising  amendments 
in  the  Senate  it  got  rid  of  the  objections  that  the  Senate  could  not 
correct  errors  of  any  sort,  &  that  it  would  introduce  into  the  House 
of  Rep!  the  practice  of  tacking  foreign  matter  to  money  bUls.    These 
objections  being  removed,  the  arguments  in  favor  of  the  proposed 
restraint  on  the  Senate  ought  to  have  their  full  force.    1.*  the  Senate 
did  not  represent  the  people,  but  the  States  in  their  political  char- 
acter.    It  was  improper  therefore  that  it  should  tax  the  people. 
The  reason  was  the  same  ag!*  their  doing  it;  as  it  had   been 
ag?'  Cong!  doing  it.     'Nor  was  it  in  any  respect  necessary  in 
order  to  cure  the  evils  of  our  Bepublican  system.     He  admitted 
that  n  twithstanding  the  superiority  of  the  Republican  form  over 
ever     other,  it  had  its  evils.     The  chief  ones,  were  the  danger 
of  the  majority  oppressing  the  minority,  and  the  mischievous  in- 
fluence of  demagogues.     The  GenJ  Government  of  itself  will  cure 
these.'    As  the  States  will  not  concur  at  the  same  time  in  their  unjust 
&  oppressive  plans,  the  General  Gov?  will  be  able  to  check  &  defeat 
them,  whether  they  result  from  the  wickedness  of  the  majorit       r 
from  the  misguidance  of  demagogues.    Again,  the  Senate  is  no'  'ike 
the  H.  of  Rep!  chosen  frequently  and  obliged  to  return  frequ     Jy 
among  the  people.    They  are  to  be  chosen  by  the  Sts  for  6  years, 
will  probably  settle  themselves  at  the  seat  of  QovJ  will  pursue  schemes 
for  their  ovm  aggrandiMment— will  be  able  by  wearyf  out  the  H.  of 
Rep!  and  taking  advantage  of  their  impatience  at  the  close  of  a  long 
Session,  to  extort  measures  for  that  purpose.     If  they  should  be 
paid  as  he  expected  would  be  yet  determined  &  wished  to  be  so,  out 
of  the  Nat'  Treasury,  they  will  particularly  extort  an  increase  of  their 
wages.    A  bare  negative  was  a  very  diflferent  thing  from  that  of 
originating  bills.    The  practice  in  EngW  was  in  point    The  House 
of  Lords  does  not  represent  nor  tax  the  people,  because  not  elected 
by  the  people.    If  the  Senate  can  originate,  they  will  in  the  recess  c' 
the  Legislative  Sessions,  hatch  their  mischievous  projects,  for  their  own 
purposes,  and  have  their  money  bills  ready  *  cut  &  dried,  (to  use  a 
common  phrase)  for  the  meeting  of  the  H.  of  Rep?    He  compared  the 
ease  to  Poyning's  law— and  signified  that  the  House  of  Rep',  might  be 


•  The  figure  "  1  "  is  changed  to  "  Firrt  "  in  the  trwiBcript. 
» The  word  "  Secondly  "  ig  here  inserted  nn  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  them  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  these. 

•  The  word  "  ready  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


['VI 


390      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDER.\L  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

rendered  by  degrees  like  the  Parliament  of  Paria,  the  mere  depoaitory 
of  the  decrees  of  the  Senate.  As  to  the  compromise  so  much  had 
passed  on  that  subject  that  he  would  say  nothing  about  it.  He  did 
not  mean  by  what  he  had  said  to  oppose  the  permanency  of  the 
Senate.  On  the  contrary  he  had  no  repugnance  to  an  increase  of 
it— nor  to  allowing  it  a  negative,  though  the  Senate  was  not  by  its 
present  constitution  entitled  to  it.  But  in  all  events  he  would  con- 
tend  that  the  purse  strings  should  be  in  the  hands  of  the  Repreeenta- 
tives  of  the  people. 

Mr  Wilson  was  himself  directly  opposed  to  the  equality  of  votes 
granted  to  the  Senate  by  its  present  Constitution.  At  the  same  t  me 
he  wished  not  to  multiply  the  vices  of  the  system.  He  did  not  me»n 
to  enlarge  on  a  subject  which  had  been  so  much  canvassed,  but 
would  remark  as  an  in«uperab)e  objection  agf  the  proposed  restric- 
ion  of  money  bills  to  the  H.  of  Rep!  that  it  would  be  a  source 
of  perpetual  contentions  where  there  was  no  mediator  to  decide  them. 
The  Presidi  here  could  not  like  the  Executive  Magistrate  in  England 
interpose  by  a  prorogation,  or  dissolution.  This  restriction  had  been 
found  pregnant  with  altercation  in  every  State  where  the  Constitu- 
tion had  established  it.  The  House  of  Rep'  will  insert  other  things 
in  money  bills,  and  by  making  them  conditions  of  each  other,  destroy 
the  deliberative  liberty  of  the  Senate.  He  stated  the  case  of  a  Pre- 
amble to  a  money  bill  sent  up  by  the  House  of  Commons  in  the  reign 
of  Queen  Anne,  to  the  H.  of  Lords,  in  which  the  conduct  of  the  dis- 
placed Ministry,  who  were  to  be  impeached  before  the  Lords,  was 
condemned ;  the  Commons  thus  extorting  a  premature  judgm^  without 
any  hearing  of  the  Parties  to  be  tried,  and  the  H.  of  Lords  being  thus 
reduced  to  the  poor  &  disgraceful  expedient  of  opposing  to  the 
authority  of  a  law,  a  protest  on  their  Journals  ag?  its  being  drawn 
into  precedent.  If  there  was  any  thing  like  Poynings  law  in  the 
present  case,  it  was  in  the  attempt  to  vest  the  exclusive  rigjit  of 
originating  in  the  H.  of  Rep!  and  so  far  he  was  agf  it.  He  should 
be  equally  so  if  the  right  were  to  be  exclusively  vested  in  the  Senate. 
With  regard  to  the  purse  strings,  it  was  to  be  observed  that  the 
purse  was  to  have  two  strings,  one  of  which  was  in  the  hands  of 
the  H.  of  Rep!  the  other  in  those  of  the  Senate.  Both  houses  must 
concur  in  untying,  and  of  what  importance  could  it  be  which  untied 
first,  which  last.  He  could  not  conceive  it  to  be  any  objection  to  the 
Senate's  preparing  the  bills,  that  they  would  have  leisure  for  that 
purpose  and  would  be  in  the  habits  of  business.  War,  Commerce,  & 
Revenue  were  the  great  objects  of  the  Gen.'  Government    All  of  them 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  13,  1787 


391 


i 


are  connected  with  money.    The  restriction  in  favor  of  the  H.  of 
Represt!  would  exclude  the  Senate  from  originating  any  important 

bills  'wh&t6V6r^^ 

Ml  Gerbt  coniidered  thi«  as  a  part  of  the  plan  that  would  be 
much  scrutinized.  Taxation  &  repre«ntation  are  strongly  associated 
in  the  minds  of  the  people,  and  they  will  not  agree  that  any  but 
their  immediate  representatives  shall  meddle  with  their  purses.  In 
short  the  acceptance  of  the  plan  wiU  inevitably  fail,  if  the  Senate  be 
not  restrained  from  originating  Money  bills. 

MT  GtovEBNi  Morris  All  the  arguments  suppose  the  right  to  origi- 
nate  money '  &  to  tax,  to  be  exclusively  vested  in  the  Senate.— The  ef- 
fects commented  on  may  be  produced  by  a  Negative  only  in  the  Senate. 
They  can  tire  out  the  other  House,  and  extort  their  concurrence  m 
favorite  measures,  as  well  by  withholding  their  negative,  as  by  adher- 
ing to  a  bfll  introduced  by  themselves. 

M*.  Madison  thought  If  the  substitute  offered  by  M^  Randolph 
for  the  original  section  is  to  be  adopted  it  would  hf  proper  to  allow 
the  Senate  at  least  so  to  amend  as  to  diminish  the  sum  •  to  be  raised. 
Why  should  they  be  restrained  from  checking  the  extravagance  of 
the  other  House  t    One  of  the  greatest  evils  incident  to  Republican 
Gov.'  was  the  spirit  of  contention  &  faction.    The  proposed  substitute, 
which  in  some  respects  lessened  the  objections  agf»  the  section,  had 
a  contrary  effect  with  respect  to  this  particular.    It  laid  a  foundation 
for  new  difBculties  and  disputes  between  the  two  houses.    The  word 
revenue  was  ambiguous.    In  many  acts,  particularly  in  the  regula- 
tions of  trade,  the  object  would  be  twofold.    The  raising  of  revenue 
would  be  one  of  them.    How  could  it  be  determined  which  was  the 
primary  or  predominant  one;  or  whether  it  was  necessary  that  reve- 
nue shl  be  the  sole  object,  in  exclusion  even  of  other  incidental 
effects.    When  the  Contest  was  first  opened  with  G.  B.  their  power 
to  regulate  trade  was  admitted.     Their  power  to  raise  revenue 
rejected.    An  accurate  investigation  of  the  subject  afterward  proved 
that  no  line  could  be  drawn  between  the  two  cases.     The  words 
amend  or  alter,  form  an  equal  source  of  doubt  &  altercation.  When 
an  obnoxious  paragraph  shall  be  sent  down  from  the  Senate  to  the 
House  of  Rep'— it  will  be  called  an  origination  under  the  name  of  an 
amendment.     The  Senate  may  actually  couch  extraneous  matter 


•The  word  "money"  Is  omitted  in  the  traiiBerlpt.  In  MadW'  not«i  it 
is  written  above  the  word.  "  originate  "  and  "  4  "  ^tW  a  caret  Indicating  Its 
position.    It  appsara  to  have  been  omitted  in  all  previoua  edition*. 

•  The  transcript  uses  the  Mbri  "  ium  "  in  ib'  plural. 


892      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


under  that  name.  In  these  caaea,  the  qaestion  will  turn  on  the 
degree  of  connection  between  the  matter  &  object  of  the  bill  and  the 
alteration  or  amendment  ofiered  to  it.  Can  there  be  a  more  froitfol 
source  of  dispute,  or  a  kind  of  dispute  more  difficult  to  be  settled! 
His  apprehensions  on  this  point  were  not  conjectural.  Disputes  had 
actually  flowed  from  this  source  in  Virg?  where  the  Senate  can 
originate  no  bill.  The  words  "  so  as  to  increase  or  diminuh  the 
sum  to  be  raised,"  were  liable  to  the  same  objections.  In  levying 
indirect  taxes,  which  it  seemed  to  be  understood  were  to  form  the 
principal  revenue  of  the  new  Oovf  the  sum  to  be  raised,  would  be 
increased  or  diminished  by  a  variety  of  collateral  circumstances  in- 
fluencing the  consumption,  in  general,  the  consumption  of  foreign  or 
of  domestic  articles— of  this  or  that  particular  species  of  articles,  and 
even  by  the  mode  of  collection  which  may  be  closely  connected  with 
the  productiveness  of  a  tax. — The  friends  of  the  section  had  argued 
its  necessity  from  the  permanency  of  the  Senate.  He  could  not  see 
how  this  argum.'  applied.  The  Senate  was  not  more  permanent  now 
than  in  the  form  it  bore  in  the  original  propositions  of  M!  Randolph 
and  at  the  time  when  no  objection  whatever  was  hinted  ag¥  its 
originating  money  billa.  Or  if  in  consequence  of  a  loss  of  the  present 
question,  a  proportional  vote  in  the  Senate  should  be  reinstated  as 
has  been  urged  as  the  indemnification  the  permanency  of  the  Senate 
will  remain  the  same. — If  the  right  to  originate  be  vested  exclusively 
in  the  House  of  Rep!  either  the  Senate  must  yield  ag**  its  judgment 
to  that  House,  in  which  case  the  Utility  of  the  check  will  be  lost — 
or  the  Senate  will  be  inflexible  &  the  H.  of  Rep!  must  adapt  its  money 
bill  to  the  views  of  the  Senate,  in  which  case,  the  exclusive  right  will 
be  of  no  avail. — ^Aa  to  the  Compromise  of  which  so  much  had  been 
said,  he  would  make  a  single  observation.  There  were  5  States  which 
had  opposed  the  equality  of  votes  in  the  Senate,  viz.  Mas?  Penn!  Virg! 
N.  Carolina  &  S.  Carol!  As  a  compensaticm  for  the  sacrifice  ex- 
torted from  them  on  this  head,  the  exclusive  origination  of  money  bills 
in  the  other  House  had  been  tendered.  Of  the  five  States  a  majority 
viz.  Penn^  Virg?  &  S.  Carol!  have  uniformly  voted  ag!*  the  pro- 
posed compensation,  on  its  own  merits,  as  rendering  the  plan  of 
Qovt  still  more  objectionable.  Mass^  has  been  divided.  N.  Carolina 
alone  has  set  a  value  on  the  compensation,  and  voted  on  that  prin- 
ciple. What  obligation  then  can  the  small  States  be  under  to  concur 
ag!*  their  judgments  in  reinstating  the  section  t 

Mr  Dickenson.  Experience  must  be  our  only  guide.  Reason 
may  mislead  us.  It  was  not  Reason  that  discovered  the  angular  ft 
admirable  mechanism  of  the  English  Constitution.    It  waa  not  Reason 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  AUGUST  13,  1787  393 

that  diBCOvered  or  ever  could  have  discovered  the  odd  A  in  the  eye 
of  those  who  are  governed  by  reason,  the  absurd  mode  of  trial  by 
Jury    Accidents  probably  produced  these  discoveries,  and  experience 
has  give  a  sanction  to  them.    This  is  then  our  guide.    And  has 
not  experience  verified  the  utility  of  restraining  money  billa  to  the 
immediate  representatives  of  the  people.   Whence  the  effect  may  have 
proceeded  he  could  not  say;  whether  from  the  respect  with  which 
this  privilege  inspired  the  other  branches  of  Gov?  to  the  H.  of 
Commons,  or  from  the  turn  of  thinking  it  gave  to  the  people  at  large 
with  regard  to  their  rights,  but  the  effect  was  visible  &  could  not  be 
doubted— Shall  we  oppose  to  this  long  experience,  the  short  experi- 
ence of  11  years  which  we  had  ourselves,  on  this  subject.    As  to  di^ 
putes  they  could  not  be  avoided  any  way.    If  both  Housea  should 
originate,  each  would  have  a  different  biU  to  which  it  would  be  at- 
tached   and  for  which  it  would  contend.— He  observed  that  aU  the 
prejudices  of  the  people  would  be  offended  by  refusing  this  exdunye 
privilege  to  the  H.  of  Repres;  and  these  prejudices  sh";  never  bedia- 
regarded  by  us  when  no  essential  purpose  was  to  be  served.    When 
this  plan  goes  forth  it  will  be  attacked  by  the  popular  leaders    Aris- 
tocracy will  be  the  watchword;  the  Shibboleth  among  its  adversaries. 
Eight  States  have   inserted  in  their   Constitutions  the   exclusive 
right  of  originating  money  bills  in  favor  of  the  popular  branch 
of  the   Legislature.    Most   of   them   however   aUowed   the    other 
branch  to  amend.    This  he  thought  would  be  proper  for  us  to 

W.  Randolph  regarded  this  point  as  of  such  consequence,  that 
as  he  valued  the  peace  of  this  Country,  he  would  press  the  adoption 
of  it  We  had  numerous  &  monstrous  difficulties  to  combat.  Surely 
we  ought  not  to  increue  them.  When  the  people  behold  in  the  Senate, 
the  countenance  of  an  aristocracy;  and  in  the  president,  the  form 
at  least  of  a  little  monarch,  will  not  their  alarms  be  sufflcientiy  raised 
without  taking  from  their  immediate  representatives,  a  right  which 
has  been  so  long  appropriated  to  them.-The  Bxecutm  wiU  have 
more  influence  over  the  Senate,  than  over  the  H.  of  Rep?  Allow  the 
Senate  to  originate  in  this  case,  &  that  influence  wiU  bf  «««  *<>  «»« 
itself  in  their  deliberations  &  plans.  The  Declaration  of  War  he  con- 
ceived ought  not  to  be  in  the  Senate  composed  of  26  men  only,  but 
rather  in  the  other  House.  In  the  other  House  ought  to  be  placed 
the  origination  of  the  mean,  of  war.  As  to  Commercial  regrfatiom, 
which  may  involve  revenue,  the  difficulty  may  be  avoided  by  restram- 
iug  the  definition  to  biUs,  for  the  mere  or  toU,  purpose  of  raismf 
revenue.    The  Senate  will  be  more  likely  to  be  corrupt  than  the 


894      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

H.  of  Bep!  and  ihould  therefore  have  leu  to  do  with  money  matttn. 
HU  principal  object  however  was  to  prevent  popular  objectiona 
agoinit  the  plan,  and  to  secure  ita  adoption. 

Ml  KuTUDos.  The  friends  of  this  motion  are  not  congistent  in 
their  reaooning.  They  tell  us  that  we  ought  to  be  guided  by  the  long 
experience  of  0.  B.  &  not  our  own  experience  of  11  years :  and  yet 
they  themselves  propose  to  depart  from  it.  The  H.  of  Commona  not 
only  have  the  exclusive  right  of  originating,  but  the  Lords  are  not 
allowed  to  alter  or  amend  a  money  bill.  Will  not  the  people  say 
that  this  restriction  is  but  a  mere  tub  to  the  whale.  They  cannot  but 
see  that  it  is  of  no  real  consequence;  and  will  be  more  likely  to  be 
displeased  with  it  as  an  attempt  to  bubble  them,  than  to  impute  it 
to  a  watchfnlneas  over  their  rights.  For  his  part,  he  would  prefw 
giving  the  exclusive  right  to  the  Senate,  if  it  was  to  be  given  «• 
dusively  at  all.  The  Senate  being  more  conversant  in  business,  and 
having  more  leisure,  will  digest  the  bills  much  better,  and  as  they 
are  to  have  no  effect,  till  examined  &  approved  by  the  H.  of  Rep?  there 
can  be  no  possible  danger.  These  clauses  in  the  Constitutions  of  the 
States  had  been  put  in  through  a  blind  adherence  to  the  British 
model.  If  the  work  was  to  be  done  over  now,  they  would  be  omitted. 
The  experiment  in  S.  Carolina,  where  the  Senate  cannot  originate 
or  amend  mon^  bills,  has  shewn  that  it  answers  no  good  purpose; 
and  produces  the  very  bad  one  of  continually  dividing  &  heating  the 
two  houses.  Sometimes  indeed  if  the  matter  of  the  amendment  of 
the  Senate  is  pleasing  to  the  other  House  they  wink  at  the  encroach- 
ment ;  if  it  be  displeasing,  then  the  Constitution  is  appealed  to.  Every 
Session  is  distracted  by  altercations  on  this  subject.  The  practice 
now  becoming  frequent  is  for  the  Senate  not  to  make  formal  amend- 
meats;  but  to  send  down  a  schedule  of  the  alterations  which  will 
procure  the  bill  their  assent. 

HP  CAmtOL.  The  most  ingenious  men  in  Maryl  are  puzzled  to 
define  the  case  of  money  bills,  or  explain  the  Constitution  on  that 
point:  tho'  it  seemed  to  be  worded  with  all  possible  plainness  &  pre- 
cision. It  is  a  source  of  continual  difficulty  &  squabble  between  the 
two  houses. 

M?  M^Henby  mentioned  an  instance  of  extraordinary  subter- 
fuge, to  get  rid  of  the  apparent  force  of  the  Constitution. 

On '  Question  on  the  first  part  of  the  motion  as  to  the  exclusive 
originating  of  Money  bills  in  *  H.  of  RepI 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  CI  no.  N.  J.  n"    P^  no.  Del.  no.  M'!  no.  Virg? 


>  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  14,  1787 


395 


ay.   Ml  Blair  ft  Ml  M.  no.    MT  R.  Col.  MaMm  and  *  Qea'  Waahington 
ay    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  nc' 

'  Question  on  Origrinating  by  *  H.  of  Rept  &  amending  by  *  Senate, 
as  reported  Art.  IV.  Sect.  5. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas  v.  C5  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M*  no. 
Vft  ay-    N.  C.  ay.    o.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

» Question  on  the  last  clause  of  Sect:  &— Art.  IV— viz  "  No  money 
shall  be  drawn  from  the  Public  Treasury,  but  in  pursuance  of 
nppropriatunu  that  shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Rep!  It  passed  in 
the  negative 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  ay  Con.  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no  Del.  no.  M!i  no. 
V!  no.   N.  C.  no.   8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no." 

Adji 


TuBDAT  Aua.  14.    In  Convemtion 

Article  VI.  Sect  9.»- '  taken  up. 

Mr  PiNKNBT  argued  that  the  making  the  membera  ineligible  to 
offices  waa  degrading  to  them,  and  the  more  improper  as  their  elec- 
tion into  the  Legislature  implied  that  they  had  the  confidence  of 
the  people;  that  it  was  inconvenient,  because  the  Senate  mi{^t  be 
supposed  to  contain  the  fittest  men.  He  hoped  to  see  that  body 
become  a  School  of  public  Ministers,  a  nursery  of  Statesmen:  that 
it  was  impolHie,  because  the  Legialatore  would  cease  to  be  a  magnet 
to  the  first  talents  and  abilitiea.  He  moved  to  postpone  the  section 
in  order  to  take  up  the  following  proposition  viz — "  the  members  of 
each  House  shal.  be  incapable  of  holding  any  office  under  the  U.  S. 

*  he  disapproved  &  till  now  votad  mT  the  ezelvsiTe  privilege,  he  gave  up 
hie  judgment  he  Mid  faecftiue  it  wu  not  of  very  materUtl  weight  with  him  &  was 
made  an  essential  point  with  others  who  U  disappointed,  ought  be  leas  cordial 
in  other  points  of  real  weight. 

t  In  the  printed  Joum  Virg? — no. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Tir- 
ffinia  [Mr.  Blair  and  Mr.  Madison  no,  Mr.  Randolph,  Colonel  Mason  and  General 
\VaBhin(fton,»  aye].  North  Carolina,  aye — 4;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsyl- 
vania, Delaware,  Maryland,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 7." 

'  The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Mk  sachusetts,  Vir- 
ginia.t  North  Carolina,  aye — 4;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Dela- 
ware, lilaryland.  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 7." 

"  In  tile  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Massachusetts,  aye — 1;  New  Hampshire, 
Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 10." 

'  See  page  340. 

'  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


396      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

for  which  they  or  any  of »  othcm  for  their  benefit  receive  any  ulary. 
fees,  or  emolument,  of  any  kind-and  the  acceptance  of  luch  office 
shall  vacate  their  aeats  reapectively " 

Gen!  Mutun  2^  the  motion.  ^       u  i         .;«- 

Col   Mason  ironically  proposed  to  .trike  out  the  whole  aection, 
a.  a  more  effectual  expedient  for  encouraging  that  exotic  corruption 
which  might  not  otherwise  thrive  so  well  in  the  American  Soil-  for 
compleating  that  Aristocracy  which  wa.  probably  in  the  contempla. 
on  of  some  among  us.  and  for  inviting  into  th«  Legiriativ.  Servm 
those  generous  &  benevolent  characters  who  will  do  justice  to  each 
otrr's  m  rit.  by  carving  out  office.  &  rewards  for  it    In  Ae  pr«en 
state  of  American  morals  &  manners,  few  friend,  it  may  be  thought 
wUl  be  lost  to  the  plan,  by  the  opportunity  of  giving  premium,  to  a 
mercenary  &  depraved  ambition.  ....      .  *i..* 

MrMEECKR.    It  is   a  first  principle   in   political  science    that 
wherever  the  rights  of  property  are  secured,  an  aristocracy  will  grow 
out  of  it.    Elective  Governments  also  necessarily  become  arurtocratw, 
because  the  ruler,  being  few  can  ft  will  <i™^/f°l^«"*».f,'»' *^"^ 
selves  from  the  many.     The  Governments  of  America  wiU  become 
aristocracies.    They  are  «,  already.    The  P^fic  nveasur«  are  cj- 
culated  for  the  benefit  of  the  Governors,  not  of  the  P«>Ple-    ^ha 
people  are  dissatisfied  &  complain.    They  change  their  rulers,  a^d  the 
pubHc  measures  are  changed,  but  it  is  only  a  change  of  one  scheme  of 
emolument  to  the  rulers,  for  another.    The  people  gam  nothmg  by  it, 
but  an  addition  of  instabUity  A  uncertainty  to  their  other  evd^- 
Govemm«^  can  only  be  maintained  by  /orce  or  influence     The  Execu- 
tte  hTnoJ  /or  Jdeprive  him  of  influence «  »>y  "-<i-J«   'T^^ 
bers  of  the  Legislature  ineligible  to  Executive  f  «*»- "'^J' ^°^^ 
a  mere  phantom  of  authority.    The  aristocratic  part  will  not  even 
\XhZ  ?n  for  a  share  of  the  plunder.    The  Legislature  must  &  w^ 
be  corpSed  of  wealth  &  abUities,  and  the  people  wUl  be  govern^by 
a  JuTto.    The  Executive  ought  to  have  a  Council,  being  ^e™b^"jj 
both  Houses     Without  such  an  influence,  the  war  wiU  be  between 
the  ar^sto  racy  &  the  people.    He  wished  it  to  be  between  the  Ax* 
0  racy  T  the  Executive.    Nothing  else  can  protect  the  people  a^ 
those   speculating  Legidatures  which  are   now   plundering   them 

^'TS^l'md'aTsolution  of  the  Legislature  of  Ma»«.  paa«d 
befo  e  th^Act  of  Cong!  recommending  the  Convention,  in  which  her 
gges  were  instructed  not  to  depart  from  the  rotation  established 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  AU0U8T  14,  1787  897 

in  the  5?*  art:  of  Confederation,  nor  to  agree  in  any  caiie  to  give  to 
e   .cmbe™  of  Cong.  .  capacity  to  hold  offlc«  -^'Jf  •  0^;"^^ 
TWs  he  Mid  waa  repealed  in  con«quence  of  the  Act  of  Con^  with 
ihich  the  SUte  thought  it  proper  to  comply  in  mi  «'»'»«*l»Sf  »*?• 
Ir     The  Senae  of  the  State  however  waa  .txU  the  «ine.    He  conld 
!nt"  think  with  m  Pinkney  that  the  diaqualiflcation  waa  degrading, 
ctnfid  nc.  U  th^^^  to  fyranny.    A.  to  MiniaU^r.  &  Amha.«.dor. 
few  of Xm  were  nece«ary.    It  i«  the  opinion  of  a  great  mnny  that 
^y  ought  to  be  diacontinued.  on  our  part;  that  none  may  ^  «nt 
ZlnlZ,  &  that  «.urce  of  influence  be » .hut  up.   If  the  Senate  were 
Tappo^t  Amba««dor.  a.  «K.med  to  be  intended,  they  w>U  m^t'P»y 
eXie.  for  their  own  «ik...     He  waa  not  «,  fond  of  th«e  pro^ 
auctions  aa  to  wit:.,  to  eatabliah  nurwsriea  for  them.    If  they  are 
on     a7po"te1.  the  Hou«.  of  Rep-  will  be  obliged  to  provide  jalane. 
or  them.  wheUier  they  approve  of  the  meamirea  or  not.    If  men 
11  ^ot^rve  in  the  Legislature  without  a  proapect  of  auch  offlces. 
:  r  luaUrU  dep^iraSrindeed.    If  our  beat  Citizen.  ««  "tuate^ 
by^rh  mercena^  view.,  we  had  better  chu«,  a  .mgle  deapot  at 
«     Tt  will  be  more  easy  to  aatirfy  the  rapacity  of  one  than  of 
nv     A^JdiJg  to  the  Wea  of  oni  Qentieman  [IP  Mercer]  our 
remmtri^e™  i.  *:  be  a  Qov«  of  plunder.    In  that  c«  it  cer- 
fain  vTould  be  prudent  to  have  but  one  rather  than  many  to  be  em- 
nlovedln  it     We  cannot  be  too  circumapect  in  the  formation  of  thia 
si     it  will  b^  examined  on  aU  aide,  and  with  a  very  auspiciou. 
Hhe  vZl  whXe  been  «>  Utely  in  arm.^  G.  B  f or  ^eir 
Sis  will  not  easily  give  them  up.    He  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
at  P-- under  our  Oove^e^U.  ^^^^^^^'^J^'l^^l 
tZZ  alSic^aSeiu^n^lSe  orportunitie.  df orded  by  the  new 
L^em  to  ^e  or  greater  abuse..    A.  it  now  stands  it  is  as  compleat 
fn  S.t«!«S  as  ever  waa  framed    If  great  powers  should  be  given 
^^ZT^^  shall  be  governed  in  reality  by  a  Junto  as  has  been 
to  the  Senate  ^e  shall  oeg  ^  di«erenfly  con- 

rSltco?g.-"rrwinbebut^deputi«f^^ 

t^yr  th^^/co'^r^nrrVt^ey  rr/ubT^t 

t^r^^i^Ze^^^?!-^^ 

•  The  word  "  the  "  i.  her.  liuerted  In  the  traiMcript. 
■The  word  "he'^  U  omltUd  in  t^e  t™n«=ru.t  tr.n«>ript. 

•The  figure  "  1  "is  ^^''1^,^.^''.^'^^/^^''  In  the  transcript 
•The  figure  "2'   i..  <=1«'»8^ "f '..\"  *Ae S^pW'  i"  the  tran«ript. 
:?]::&  "Ld  tai^ in  cJ;^.«<- State...  i.  auhatitut el  in  tb. 

transcript  for  "  4.  In  Cong;  0  Btatea." 


898      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

for  all  great  purpoaea— hen  6  per$ont  will  •ofBca.  la  it  to  ba  praaamed 
that  the  people  will  ever  agree  to  laeh  a  lyitemt  Ha  moved  to 
render  the  memben  of  the  H.  of  Rep!  aa  well  aa  of  the  Senate  in- 
eligible not  only  during,  bat  for  one  year  after  the  expiration  of 
their  tenna— If  it  ahould  be  thought  that  this  will  injare  the  Legia- 
latare  by  keeping  oat  of  it  men  of  abilitiea  who  are  willing  to  aerre 
in  other  offices  it  may  be  required  aa  a  qualification  for  other  offleea, 
that  the  Candidate  shall  have  served  a  certain  time  in  the  Legialatore. 

W.  Oov!  MoRKU.  Exclude  the  offleera  of  the  army  A  navy,  and 
you  form  a  band  having  a  different  interest  from  &  oppoaed  to  the 
civil  power:  you  stimulate  them  to  despise  ft  reproach  *'  ise  "  talking 
Lords  who  dare  not  face  the  foe."  Let  this  spirit  -oosad  at  the 
end  of  a  war,  before  yoar  troops  shall  have  laid  down  their  anna, 
and  though  the  Civil  authority  "  be  intrenched  in  parchment  to  the 
teeth  "  they  will  cut  their  way  to  it.  He  was  ag^  rendering  the 
membera  of  the  Legislature  ineligible  to  offleea.  He  waa  for  render* 
ing  them  eligible  ag?  after  having  vacated  their  Seata  by  ac  jpting 
office.  Why  should  we  not  avail  ourselves  of  their  services  if  the 
people  chuse  to  give  them  their  confidence.  There  can  b«  little  danger 
of  corruption  either  among  the  people  or  the  Legislatarea  who  are 
to  be  the  Electors.  If  they  say,  we  see  their  merits,  v.  ■t  honor  the 
luen,  we  chuse  to  renew  our  confidence  in  them,  have  they  not  a 
right  to  give  them  a  prefere.  . ;  and  can  they  be  prop«;rly  i^ridged 
of  it. 

Ml  WiLLiAUsoN;  introduced  his  opposition  to  the  motion  by  r»> 
f erring  to  the  queation  concerning  "  money  bills."  That  rlanse  he 
said  waa  dead.  Its  ghost  he  was  afraid  would  a»t-.n..  ■'  «uding  Lauut 
OS.  It  had  been  a  matter  of  conscience  with  him,  to  insist  upon '  it 
as  long  aa  there  waa  hope  of  retaining  it.  He  had  swallowed  the  vote 
of  rejection,  with  reluctance.  He  could  not  digest  it.  All  that  was 
said  on  the  other  side  waa  that  the  restriction  was  not  convenient. 
We  have  now  got  a  House  of  Lords  which  is  to  originate  money- 
bills. — To  avoid  another  inconveniency,*  we  are  to  have  a  whole  Legis- 
lature at  liberty  to  cut  out  offices  for  one  another.  He  thought  a 
aelf-denying  ordinance  for  ourselves  would  be  more  proper.  Bad 
aa  the  Constitution  has  been  made  by  expunging  the  restriction  on 
the  Senate  concerning  money  bills  he  did  not  wish  to  make  it  w«.rse 
by  expunging  the  present  Section.  He  had  scarcely  seen  a  single 
corrupt  measure  in  the  Legislature  of  N.  Carolina,  which  could  not 
be  traced  up  to  office  hunting. 

W.  Sherman.     The  Constitution  sh'  lay  as  few  tempations  as 

'  The  word  "  on  "  is  vnbstitutcd  in  the  tranirript  (or  "  upon." 

"  The  word  "  inconvmiertey  "  i»  rhitnged  to  "  im:<ynpmif»cf     in  the  trer.wript. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY.  AUGUST  14,  1787 


899 


powiblp  in  the  way  of  thoM  in  power.  Men  of  abilitiei  will  inereue 
M  the  Coontry  (rows  more  popaloua  and,  wd  *  the  mean*  of  edaea* 
tion  are  more  diffuwd. 

ill  I^NKNZT.  No  State  ha»  rendered  the  members  of  the  Leffia- 
latnre  ineligible  to  offlees.  In  S.  Candina  the  Jadgea  are  eligible 
into  the  Legialatare.  It  can  not  be  rappoaed  then  that  the  motion 
will  be  offenaive  to  the  people.  If  the  State  Constitnti<ma  ahonld  be 
reviled  he  believed  rcatrietiona  of  thia  aort  w4  be  rather  diminiabed 
than  multiplied. 

Mt  Wilson  conld  not  approve  of  the  Section  aa  it  itcod,  aad  eould 
not  give  up  bia  judgment  to  any  rappoaed  objeetiona  that  might  ariae 
among  the  people.  He  considered  himaelf  aa  acting  ft  reapoitaibie  for 
t!  e  welfare  of  milliona  not  immediately  repreaented  in  thia  Honae. 
He  had  alao  aaked  himaelf  the  aerioni  qucation  what  he  ahonld  aay 
to  hia  eonatitnenta  in  caae  they  ahonld  call  upon  him  to  tell  them 
^\rhy  he  aacrifleed  hia  own  Judgment  in  a  eaae  where  they  authoriaed 
him  to  ezerciie  itt  Were  he  to  own  to  them  that  Le  aacrifleed  it  in 
order  to  flatter  their  prejudicea,  he  should  dread  the  retort :  did  you 
suppose  the  people  of  Penn!  had  not  good  sense  enou^  to  receive  a 
good  Government?  Under  thia  impression  he  should  certainly  follow 
his  own  Judgment  which  disapproved  of  the  aection.  He  would  re- 
marlc  in  addition  to  the  objections  urged  ag?  it,  that  aa  one  branch  of 
the  Legislature  waa  to  be  appointed  by  the  Legialatures  of  the  Statea, 
the  other  by  the  people  of  the  Statea,  aa  both  are  to  be  paid  by  the 
States,  and  to  be  appointable  to  State  oiBces,  nothing  seemed  to  be 
wanting  to  prostrate  the  Nat'  Legialature,  but  to  render  ita  membera 
ineligible  to  Nat!  offices,  ft  by  that  meana  take  away  ita  power  of 
attracting  those  talcntu  which  were  necessary  ^^  give  weight  to  the 
Govern^  aad  to  render  it  uaeful  to  the  people.  He  waa  far  from 
thinldng  the  ambition  which  aspired  to  Officea  of  dignity  and  trust, 
au  ignoble  or  culpable  one.  He  waa  aure  it  was  not  politic  to  regard 
it  in  that  light,  or  to  withold  from  it  the  prospect  of  those  rewards, 
which  might  engage  it  in  the  career  of  public  aervice.  He  observed 
that  the  State  of  Penn?  which  had  gone  aa  f ar  as  any  State  into  the 
policy  of  fettering  power,  had  not  rendered  the  members  of  the 
Legrislatnre  ineligible  to  offices  of  Gov! 

Ml  Elsworth  did  not  think  the  mere  postponement  of  the 
reward  would  be  any  material  discouragement  of  merit.  Ambitioua 
minds  will  serve  2  years  or  7  years  in  the  Legislature  for  the  sake  of 
qualifying  themselves  for  other  offices.  This  he  thought  a  sufficient 
security  for  obtaining  the  services  of  the  ablest  men  in  the  Legis- 

'  The  word  "  as  "  ii  mibititutcd  in  th*  trsatcript  for  "  and." 


400      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

lature,  althongh  whilst  members  they  should  be  ineligible  to  Public 
oflSces.  Besides,  merit  will  be  most  encouraged,  when  most  im- 
partially rewarded.  If  rewards  are  to  circulate  only  within  the 
Legislature,  merit  out  of  it  will  be  discouraged. 

M5  Mercer  was  extremely  anxious  on  this  point.  What  led  to  the 
appointment  of  this  Convention?  The  corruption  &  mutability  of 
the  Legislative  Councils  of  the  States.  If  the  plan  does  not  remedy 
these,  it  will  not  recommend  itself ;  and  we  shall  not  be  able  in  our 
private  capacities  to  support  &  enforce  it:  nor  will  the  best  part 
of  our  Citizens  exert  themselves  for  the  purpose. — It  is  a  great  mis- 
take to  suppose  that  the  paper  we  are  to  propose  will  govern  the  U. 
States!  It  is  The  men  whom  it  will  bring  into  the  Govern^  and  in- 
terest in  maintaining  it  that  is  ^  to  govern  them.  The  paper  will  only 
mark  out  the  mode  &  the  form.  Men  are  the  substance  and  must 
do  the  business.  All  Gov?  must  be  by  force  or  influsnce.  It  is  not 
the  King  of  France — but  200,000  janisaries  of  power  that  govern  that 
Kingdom.  There  will  be  no  such  force  here ;  influence  then  must  be 
substituted;  and  he  would  ask  whether  this  could  be  done,  if  the 
members  of  the  Legislature  should  be  ineligible  to  offices  of  State; 
whether  such  a  disqualification  would  not  determine  all  the  most 
influencial  men  to  stay  at  home,  and  &  prefer  appointments  within 
their  respective  States. 

IV-  Wilson  was  by  no  means  satisfied  with  the  answer  given  by 
M!  Elsewoth  tc  the  argument  as  to  the  discouragement  of  merit.  The 
members  must  either  go  a  second  time  into  the  Legislature,  and  dis- 
qualify themselves— or  say  to  their  Constituents,  we  served  you  be- 
fore only  from  the  mercenary  view  of  qualifying  ourselves  for  offices, 
and  have!  answered  this  purpose  we  do  not  chuse  to  be  again  elected. 

Mf  Govf  MoRKis  put  the  case  of  a  war,  and  the  Citizen  the  *  most 
capable  of  conducting  it,  happening  to  be  a  member  of  the  Legisla- 
ture. What  might  have  been  the  consequence  of  such  a  regulation  at 
the  commencement,  or  even  in  the  Course  of  the  late  contest  for  our 
liberties? 

On'  question  for  postponing  in  order  to  take  up  W  Pinkneys 
motion,  it  was  lost. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  CJ  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  divl* 


•  The  word  "  are  "  ii  subitituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  ii." 
"  The  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  rends:  "  New  Hampshire,  Pennsylyanis,  DeUwar*, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  aye — 5;  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 5;  Georgia,  divided." 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  14,  1787 


401 


W-  Govt  Mobris  moved  to  insert,  after  "office,"  except  ofBcei 
in  the  army  or  navy:  but  in  that  case  their  offices  shall  be  vacated. 

Mr  Broom  2^  him. 

iR  Rakdolph  had  been  &  thonld  continue  nniformly  opposed  to 
the  striking  out  of  the  Ipuse;  as  opening  a  door  for  influence  ft 
rnrniption.  No  arjr  .icnt"  had  niade  any  impression  on  him,  but 
those  which  related  ■<■  the  case  of  \<,f.  •,  and  a  co-existing  incapacity 
of  the  fittest  comma  •  ^c■r■'.  to  he  erip'  yed.  He  admitted  great  weight 
in  these,  and  woult  atree  to  the  exception  proposed  by  IP  Gov? 
Morris. 

W  Butler  &  W.  Finkket  urged  a  general  postponemJ  of  9  Sect. 
Art.  VI.  till  it  should  be  seen  what  powers  would  be  vested  in  the 
Senate,  when  it  would  be  more  easy  to  judge  of  the  expediency  of 
allowing  the  officers  of  State  to  be  chosen  out  of  that  body. — a  gen- 
eral postponement  was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Art:  VI.  sect.  lO.'-*  taken  up— "that  members  be  paid  by  their 
respective  States." 

M*  Elseworth  said  that  in  reflecting  on  this  subject  he  had  been 
satisfied  that  too  much  dependence  on  the  States  would  be  produced 
by  this  mode  of  payment.  He  moved  to  strike  *  out  and  insert ' '  that 
they  should  ' '  be  paid  out  of  the  Treasury  of  the  U.  S.  an  allowance 
not  exceeding  (blank)  dollars  per  day  or  the  present  value 
thereof. 

3ir  Govt  Morris,  remarked  that  if  the  members  were  to  be  paid 
b}'  the  States  it  would  throw  an  unequal  burden  on  the  distant 
States,  which  would  be  unjust  as  the  Legislature  waa  to  be  a  national 
Assembly.  He  moved  that  the  payment  be  out  of  the  Nat'  Treasury; 
leaving  the  quantum  to  the  discretion  of  the  Nat'  Legislature.  There 
could  be  no  reason  to  fear  that  they  would  overpay  themselves. 

Mf  BtjTLER  contended  for  payment  by  the  States;  particulariy 
in  the  case  of  the  Senate,  who  will  be  so  long  out  of  their  respective 
States,  that  they  will  lose  sight  of  their  Constituents  unless  dependent 
on  them  for  their  support. 

in  Lanqdon  was  ag*  payment  by  the  States.  There  would  be 
some  difficulty  in  fixing  the  sum;  but  it  would  be  unjust  to  oblige 
the  distant  States  to  bear  the  expenee  of  their  members  in  travelling 
to  and  from  the  Seat  of  Gov! 

Ml  Madison  If  the  H.  of  RepS  is  to  be  chosen  bieimially — and  the 
Senate  to  be  constantly  dependent  on  the  Legislatures  which  are 

'  See  pafre  340. 

'  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript. 

'  The  word  "  it "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


^    •11 

m 

'M 


402      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

chosen  annually,  he  could  not  see  any  chance  for  that  stability  in  the 
(Sen.'  Gov?  the  want  of  which  was  a  principal  evil  in  the  State  Gov*! 
His  fear  was  that  the  organization  of  the  Gov.*  supposing  the  Senate 
to  be  really  independ'  for  six  years,  would  not  eflfect  our  purpose. 
It  was  nothing  more  than  a  combination  of  the  peculiarities  of  two 
of  the  State  Gov*!  which  separately  had  been  found  insufficient.  Thp 
Senate  was  formed  on  the  model  of  that  of  MaryK  The  Revisionary 
check,  on  that  of  N.  York.  What  the  effect  of  a  union  of  these  pro- 
visions might  be,  could  not  be  foreseen.  The  enlargement  of  the 
sphere  of  the  Government  was  indeed  a  circumstance  which  he 
thought  would  be  favorable  as  he  had  on  several  occasions  under- 
taken to  shew.  He  waa  however  for  fixing  at  least  two  extremes  not 
to  be  exceeded  by  the  Nat!  Legisl*?  in  the  payment  of  themselves. 

M^  Gebry.  There  are  difficulties  on  both  sides.  The  observation 
of  Mt  Butler  has  weight  in  it.  On  the  other  side,  the  State  Legis- 
latures may  turn  out  the  Senators  by  reducing  their  salaries.  Such 
things  have  been  practised. 

Col.  Mason.  It  has  not  yet  been  noticed  that  the  clause  as  it 
now  stands  makes  the  House  of  Represent!  also  dependent  on  the 
State  Legislatures ;  so  that  both  houses  will  be  made  the  instruments 
of  the  politics  of  the  States  whatever  they  may  be. 

Ml  Broom  could  see  no  danger  in  trusting  the  Qevi  Legislature 
with  the  paj-ment  of  themselves.  The  State  Legislatures  had  this 
power,  and  no  complaint  had  been  made  of  it. 

MI  Sherman  was  not  afraid  that  the  Legislature  would  make  their 
own  wages  too  high;  but  too  low,  so  that  men  ever  so  fit  could  n>t 
serve  unless  they  were  at  the  same  time  rich.  He  thought  the  best 
plan  would  be  to  fix  a  moderate  allowance  to  be  paid  out  of  the 
Nat'  Treas?  and  let  the  States  make  such  additions  as  they  might 
judge  fit.  He  moved  that  5  dollars  per  day  be  the  sum,  any  further 
emoluments  to  be  added  by  the  States. 

iP.  Carrol  had  been  much  surprised  at  seeing  this  clause  in  the 
Report.  The  dependence  of  both  Houses  on  the  State  Legislatures  is 
compleat;  especially  as  the  members  of  the  former  are  eligible  to 
State  offices.  The  States  can  now  say :  if  you  do  not  comply  with  our 
wishes,  we  will  starve  you :  if  you  do  we  will  reward  you.  The  new 
Gk)v?  in  this  form  was  nothing  more  than  a  second  edition  of  Congress 
in  two  volumes,  instead  of  one,  and  perhaps  with  very  few  amend- 
ments— 

Mr  Dickenson  took  it  for  granted  that  all  were  convinced  of 
the  necessity  of  making  the  Gen'  Gov.'  independent  of  the  prejudices, 
passions,  and  improper  views  of  the  State  Legislatures.    The  con- 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  14,  1787 


403 


trary  of  This  was  efifected  by  the  section  as  it  stands.  On  the  other 
hand  there  ere  objections  ag!*  taking  a  permanent  standard  as  wheat 
which  had  ueen  suggested  on  a  former  occasion,  as  well  as  against 
leading  the  matter  to  the  pleasure  of  the  Nat'  Legislature.  He  pro- 
posed that  an  Act  should  be  passed  every  12  years  by  the  Nat! 
Legislt  settling  the  quantum  of  their  wages.  If  the  Gten?  Go\.'  should 
be  left  dependent  on  the  State  Legislatures,  it  would  be  happy  for 
us  if  we  had  never  met  in  this  Room. 

Mr  Ei^EWOBTH  was  not  unwilling  himself  to  trust  the  Legislature 
with  authority  to  regulate  their  own  wages,  but  well  knew  that  an 
unlimited  discretion  for  that  purpose  would  produce  strong,  tho' 
perhaps  not  insuperable  objections.  He  thought  changes  in  the 
value  of  money,  provided  for  by  his  motion  in  the  words,  "  or  the 
present  value  thereof." 

W.  L.  Martin.  As  the  Senate  is  to  represent  the  States,  the  mem- 
bers of  it  ought  to  be  paid  by  the  States. 

M'.  Carbou  The  Senate  was  to  represent  &  managb  the  affairs 
of  the  whole,  and  not  to  be  the  advocates  of  State  interests.  They 
ought  then  not  to  be  dependent  on  nor  paid  by  the  States. 

On  the  question  for  pajring  the  Members  of  the  Legislature  out 
of  the  Nat?  Treasury, 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  Ct  ay.  N.  J  ay.  R  ay.  Del.  ay.  M"?  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Qeo.  ay.* 

M^  Elsewth  moved  that  the  pay  be  flbced  at  5  doll"!  or  t  " 
present  value  thereof  per  day  during  their  attendance  &  for  ever, 
thirty  miles  in  travelling  to  &  from  Congress. 

MI  Strong  preferred  4  dollars,  leaving  the  Sts.  at  liberty  to  make 
additions. 

On '  question  for  fixing  the  pay  at  5  dollars. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CJ  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

Ml  Dickenson  proposed  that  the  wages  of  the  members  of  both 
houses  8^  be  required  to  be  the  flame. 

W.  Brooke  seconded  him. 

W-  Ghorcm.  this  would  be  unreasonable.  The  Senate  will  be 
detained  longer  from  home,  will  be  obliged  to  remove  their  families, 

•  In  the  tranwript  the  rot«  reads :  "  New  Hamnshire,  Connecticut,  New 
Jersey,  Penniylvonla,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Georgia, 
aye— 0;  Maaaachusettg,  South  Carolina,  no — 2." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Virginia,  aye— 2;  New 
Hampshire,  Massachusetts.  New  Jersey,  Pennaylvmnia,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 9." 


■  ?;f 

•I 

-»« 

Hi 

•4 
■  til 


404      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


3  an 


and  in  time  of  war  perhaps  to  sit  constantly.  Their  allowan< 
certainly  be  higher.  The  members  of  the  Senates  in  the  S 
allowed  more,  than  those  of  the  other  house. 

M?  Dickenson  withdrew  his  motion 

It  was  moved  &  agreed  to  amend  the  Section  by  adding—"  to  be 
ascertained  by  law." 

The  Section  [Art  VI.  Sec.  10]  as  amended,   agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Adji 


Wednesday  August  15.    in  Convention 

Art:  VI.  Sect.  11.'' "    Agreed  to  nem.  con. 
Art :  VI  Sect.  12.'- '  taken  up. 

M'.  Strong  moved  to  amend  the  article  so  as  to  read—*'  Bach 
House  shall  possess  the  right  of  originating  all  bills,  except  bills 
for  raising  money  for  the  purposes  of  revenue,  or  for  appropriating 
the  same  and  for  fixing  the  salaries  of  the  ofacers  of  the  Qov^  which 
shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Representatives;  but  the  Senate  may 
propose  or  concur  with  amendments  as  in  other  cases  " 

Col.  Mason,  2^  the  motion.  He  was  extremely  earnest  to  take 
this  power  from  the  Senate,  who  he  said  could  already  sell  the  whole 
Country  by  means  of  Treaties. 

M'.  Qhorum  urged  the  amendment  as  of  great  importance.  The 
Senate  will  first  acquire  the  habit  of  preparing  money  bills,  and  then 
the  practice  will  grow  into  an  exclusive  right  of  preparing  them. 
W-  Govern'.  Morris  opposed  it  as  unnecessary  and  inconvenient 
Mt  Williamson,  some  think  this  restriction  on  the  Senate  essen- 
tial to  liberty,  others  think  it  of  no  importance.  Why  should  not 
the  former  be  indulged,  he  was  for  an  efBcient  and  stable  Gov? 
but  many  would  not  strengthen  the  Senate  if  not  restricted  in  the 
case  of  money  bills.  The  friends  of  the  Senate  would  therefore  lose 
more  than  they  would  gain  by  refusing  to  gratify  the  other  side. 
He  moved  to  postpone  the  subject  till  the  powers  of  the  Senate 
should  be  gone  over. 

M5  RuTLiDGE  2*?  the  motion. 

M5  Mercts  should  hereafter  be  ag?  returning  to  a  reconsidera- 
tion of  this  section.    He  contended,  (alluding  to  W.  Mason's  obscrva- 

■  S«e  page  340. 

•  The  word  "  waB  "  i«  here  inierted  in  the  tranecrlpt. 

•  The  wordi  "  wai  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  15,  1787         405 

tions)  that  the  Senate  ought  not  to  have  the  power  of  treaties.  Thia 
power  belonged  to  the  Execative  department;  adding  that  Treaties 
woula  not  be  final  so  as  to  alter  the  laws  of  the  land,  till  ratified  by 
legislative  authority.  This  was  the  case  of  Treaties  in  Great  Britain ; 
particularly  the  late  Treaty  of  Commerce  with  France. 

Col.  Masok.  did  not  say  that  a  Treaty  would  repeal  a  law ;  but 
that  the  Senate  by  means  of  treaty^  might  alienate  territory  &c, 
without  legislative  sanction.  The  cessions  of  the  British  Islands  in  ' 
W-  Indies  by  Treaty  alone  were  an  example.  If  Spain  should  possess 
herself  of  Georgia  therefore  the  Senate  might  by  treaty  dismember 
the  Union.  He  wished  the  motion  to  be  decided  now,  that  the 
friends  of  it  might  know  how  to  conduct  themselves. 

On'  question  for  postponing  Sec:  12.  it  parsed  in  the  affinnar 
tive. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay  C?  no.  N.  J.  no  Pen?  no.  DeL  no  Mary*  no. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.— » 

M^  Madison  moved  that  all  acts  before  they  become  laws  should  be 
submitted  both  to  the  Executive  and  Supreme  Judiciary  Departments, 
that  if  either  of  these  should  object  %  of  each  House,  if  both  should 
object,  94  of  each  House,  should  be  necessary  to  overrule  the  objec- 
tions and  give  to  the  acts  the  force  of  law —  * 

See  the  motion  at  large  in  the  Journal  of  this  date,  page  253,  & 
insert  it  here."  ■ 

[  "  Every  bill  which  shall  have  passed  the  two  houses,  shall,  before 
it  become  a  law,  be  severally  presented  to  the  President  of  the  United 
States,  and  to  the  judges  of  the  supreme  court  for  the  revision  of  each. 
If,  upon  such  revision,  they  shall  approve  of  it,  they  shall  respectively 
signify  their  approbation  by  signing  it;  but  if,  upon  such  revision, 
it  shall  appear  improper  to  either,  or  both,  to  be  passed  into  a  law, 
it  shall  be  returned,  with  the  objections  agunst  it,  to  that  house,  in 
which  it  shall  have  originated,  who  shall  enter  the  objections  at 
large  on  their  journal,  and  proceed  to  reconsider  the  bill :  but  if,  after 
such  reconsideration,  two  thirds  of  that  house,  when  either  the  Presi- 
dent, or  a  majority  of  the  judges  shall  object,  or  diree  fourths,  where 


'  The  tranwrtpt  Ti«e«  the  word  "  treaty  "  in  the  plural. 

■  The  word  "  the  "  U  here  inierted  in  the  tranicript. 

■In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampthire,  Ma««achu»ett»,  Vir- 
ginia, Korth  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  Connecticut,  New 
Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  no — 6." 

•"This  paragraph  is  stricken  out  in  the  transcript. 

'  Madison's  direction  concerning  the  motion  is  omitted  in  the  transcript  and 
the  following  sentence  is  inierted:  "Mr.  Madison  moved  the  following  amendment 
of  Article  6,  Section  13."  • 

*  See  page  340. 


406      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

both  shall  object,  shall  agree  to  pass  it,  it  shall,  together  with  the  ob- 
jections, be  sent  to  the  other  house,  by  which  it  shall  likewise  be  re- 
considered ;  and,  if  approved  by  two  thirds,  or  three  fourths  of  the 
other  house,  as  the  case  may  be,  it  shall  become  a  law."] 

Ml  Wilson  seconds  the  motion 

M'.  PiNKNET  opposed  the  interference  of  the  Judges  in  the  Legis- 
lative business:  it  will  involve  them  in  parties,  and  give  a  previous 
tincture  to  their  opinions. 

IP  Mercer  heartily  approved  the  motion.  It  is  an  axiom  that 
the  Judiciary  ought  to  be  separate  from  the  Legislative :  but  equally 
so  that  it  ought  to  be  independent  of  that  department.  The  true 
policy  of  the  axiom  is  that  legislative  usurpation  and  oppression 
may  be  obviated.  He  disapproved  of  the  Doctrine  that  the  Judges 
as  expositors  of  the  Constitution  should  have  authority  to  declare 
a  law  voia.  He  thought  laws  ought  to  be  well  and  cautiously  made, 
and  then  to  be  uncontroulable. 

W-  Qerrt.  This  motion  comes  to  the  same  thing  with  what  has 
been  already  negatived. 

'  Question  on  the  motion  of  W  Madison. 

N.  H.  no.  Mass.  no.  C?  no.  N.  J.  no.  P»  no.  Del  ay.  Mary*  ay. 
Virgf  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

Mi  Govt  Morris  regretted  that  something  like  the  proposed  check 
could  not  be  agreed  to.  He  dwelt  on  the  importance  of  public  credit, 
and  the  difficulty  of  supporting  it  without  some  strong  barrier 
against  the  instability  of  legislative  Assemblies.  He  suggested  the 
idea  of  requiring  three  fourths  of  each  house  to  reped  laws  where 
the  President  should  not  concur.  He  had  no  great  reliance  on  the 
revisionary  power  as  the  Executive  was  now  to  be  constituted  [elected 
by  the »  Congress].  The  legislature  will  contrive  to  soften  down  the 
President.  He  recited  the  history  of  paper  emissions,  and  the  perse- 
verance of  the  Illative  assemblies  in  repeating  them,  with  all  the 
distressing  effects  of  such  measures  before  their  eyes.  Were  the 
National  legislature  formed,  and  a  war  was  now  to  break  out,  this 
ruinous  expedient  would  be  again  resorted  to,  if  not  guarded  against 
The  requiring  %  to  repeal  would,  though  not  a  compleat  remedy, 
prevent  the  uiJty  passage  of  laws,  and  the  frequency  of  those  repeals 
which  destroy  faith  in  the  public,  and  which  arc  among  our  greatest 
calamities.- 


» The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  ingertcd  in  the  transcript. 
In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Delaware,  Maryland.  Viririnia,  aye— 3; 
«ew  Hampshire,  Aassachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsvlvauia.  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Geor^a,  no— 8." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  15,  1787         407 

MT  Dickenson  was  atrongly  impreaaed  with  the  remark  of  M? 
Mercer  as  to  the  power  of  the  Judges  to  set  aside  the  law.  He  thought 
no  such  power  ought  to  exist.  He  was  at  the  same  time  at  a  loss  what 
expedient  to  substitute.  The  Justiciary  of  ArragOQ  he  observed  be- 
came by  degrees,  the  lawgiver. 

W-  Qoy'  MoiiRis,  suggested  the  expedient  of  an  absolute  negative 
in  the  Executive.  He  could  not  agree  that  the  Judiciary  which  was 
part  of  the  Executive,  should  be  bound  to  say  that  s  direct  violation 
of  the  Constitnti  ~  was  law.  A  controul  over  tiie  legislature  might 
have  its  inconveniences.  But  view  the  danger  on  the  other  side.  The 
most  virtuous  Citizens  will  often  as  members  of  a  legislative  body 
concur  in  measures  which  afterwards  in  their  private  capacity  they 
will  be  ashamed  of.  Encroachments  of  the  popular  branch  of  the 
Government  ought  to  be  guarded  agl^  The  Ephori  at  Sparta  became 
in  the  end  absolute.  The  Beport  of  the  Council  of  Censors  in 
PennsyM  points  out  the  many  invasions  of  the  legislative  depart- 
ment on  the  Executive  numerous  as  the  latter  *  is,  within  the  short 
term  of  seven  years,  and  in  a  State  where  a  strong  party  is  opposed 
to  the  Constitution,  and  watching  every  occasion  of  turning  the  pub- 
lic resentments  agf*  it.  If  the  Executive  be  overturned  by  the  popu- 
lar branch,  as  happened  in  England,  the  tyranny  of  one  man  will 
ensue.  In  Bome  where  the  Aristocracy  overturned  the  throne,  the 
consequence  -;vas  different.  He  enlarged  on  the  tendency  of  the  legis- 
lative Authority  to  usurp  on  the  Executive  and  wished  the  section 
to  be  postponed,  in  order  to  consider  of  some  more  effectual  check 
than  requiring  H  only  to  overrule  the  negative  of  the  Executive. 

M^  SuEBUAN.  Can  one  man  be  trusted  better  than  all  the  others 
if  they  all  agree  t  This  was  neither  wise  nor  safe.  He  disapproved 
of  Judges  meddling  in  politics  and  parties.  We  have  gone  far  enough 
in  forming  the  negative  as  it  now  stands. 

Mr  CABROii-  when  the  negative  to  be  ovirniled  by  %  only  was 
agreed  to,  the  quorum  was  not  fixed.  He  remarked  that  as  a  majority 
was  now  to  be  the  quorum,  17.  in  the  larger,  and  8  in  the  smaller 
house  might  carry  points.  The  advantage  that  might  be  taken  of 
this  seemed  to  call  for  greater  impediments  to  improper  laws.  He 
thought  the  controuling  power  however  of  the  Executive  could  not  be 
well  decided,  till  it  was  seen  how  the  formation  of  that  department 
would  be  finally  regulated.  He  wished  the  consideration  of  the  mat- 
ter to  be  postponed. 

•  The  Executive  conaitta  at  tliii  time '  of  »bt  20  member*. 

•The  phrase  "condated  at  that  time"  i»  lubrtituted  in  the  tTanacript  for 
"  consista  at  thia  time." 


408      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


M!  Uhoruu  aaw  no  end  to  these  difficulties  and  postponements. 
Some  could  not  agree  to  the  form  of  Government  before  the  powers 
were  defined.  Others  could  not  agree  to  the  powers  till  it  was  seen 
how  the  Qovemment  was  to  be  formed.  He  thought  a  majority  as 
large  a  quorum  as  was  necessary.  It  was  the  quorum  almost  every 
where  fixt  in  the  U.  States. 

MI  Wilson;  after  viewing  the  subject  with  all  the  coolness  and 
attention  possible  was  most  apprehensive  of  a  dissolution  of  the 
Ocv.*  from  the  legislature  swallowing  up  all  the  other  powers,  fie 
remarked  that  the  prejudices  ag^  the  Executive  resulted  from  a 
misapplication  of  the  adage  that  the  parliament  was  the  palladium  of 
liberty.  Where  the  Executive  was  really  formidable,  King  and 
Tyrant,  were  naturally  associated  in  the  minds  of  people ;  not  hgit- 
laiure  and  tyranny.  But  where  the  Executive  was  not  formidable, 
the  two  last  were  most  properly  associated.  After  the  destruction 
of  the  King  in  Oreat  Britain,  a  more  pure  and  unmixed  tyranny 
sprang  up  in  the  parliament  than  had  been  exercised  by  the  monarch, 
fie  insisted  that  we  had  not  guarded  ag^  the  danger  on  this  side  by 
a  sufficient  self-defensive  power  either  to  the  Executive  or  Judiciary 
department. 

Mt  RuTLiDOE  was  strenuous  agf^  postponing;  and  complained  much 
of  the  tediousness  of  the  proceedings. 

Mr  Elseworth  held  the  same  language.  We  grow  more  &  more 
skeptical  as  we  proceed.  If  we  do  not  decide  soon,  we  shall  be  unable 
to  come  to  any  decision. 

The  question  for  postponement  passed  in  the  negative:  Del:  & 
Mary?  only  being  in  the  afBrmative. 

W  Williamson  moved  to  change  "  %  of  each  House "  into 
"  %  "  as  requisite  to  overrule  the  dissent  of  the  President.  He  saw 
no  danger  in  this,  and  preferred  giving  the  power  to  the  Presidi  alone, 
to  admitting  the  Judges  into  the  business  of  legislation. 

Mt  Wilson  2?  the  motion;  referring  to  and  repeating  the  ideas 
of  MF  Carroll. 

On  this  motion  for  %.  instead  of  two  thirds;  it  passed  in  the 
affirmative 

N.  H.  no.  Ma8.no.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pen?  div?  Delay.  Mfay. 
V*  ay.  N.  C.  ay.  S.  C.  ay.  Geo.  no.* 

M?  Madison,  observing  that  if  the  negative  of  the  President  was 
confined  to  hiUs;  it  would  be  evaded  by  acts  under  the  form  and 


'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  readt :  "  Connecticut,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Vir- 
ginia, North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye— «;  New  Hampthire,  Maiaachuietta, 
New  Jersey,  Georgia,  no — »;  Pennsylvania,  divided." 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAY,  AUGUST  16,  1787  409 

name  of  Beaolutiona,  votes  Ac,  proposed  that  or  resolve"  should 
be  added  after  "  bM"  in  the  beginning  of  sect  13.  with  an  excep- 
tion as  to  votes  of  adjoonunent  Ac. —  after  a  short  and  rather  con- 
fused conversation  on  the  subject,  the  question  was  put  &  rejected,  the 
States  ^  being  as  follows, 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  ay.  C^  no.  N.  J.  no.  P«nf  no.  Del.  ay.  M^  no. 
Vt  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

"  Ten*  days  (Sundays  excepted) "  instead  of  "  seven  "  were  al- 
lowed to  the  President  for  returning  bills  with  his  objections  N.  H. 
&  Mas :  only  voting  ag^  it. 

The  13  Sect :  of  art  VI  as  amended  was  then  agreed  ta 
Adjourned. 


i': 


THtTBSDAT.  AUODST   16.     IN   CONVINTION. 

M?  Bandolph  having  thrown  into  a  new  form  the  motion,  putting 
votes,  Besolntions  &c.  on  a  footing  with  BUls,  renewed  it  as  follows 
"  Every  order  resolution  or  vote,  to  which  the  concurrence  of  the 
Senate  &  House  of  Bep*.  may  be  necessary  (except  on  a  question  of 
adjournment  and  in  the  cases  hereinafter  mentioned)  shall  be  pre- 
sented to  the  President  for  his  revision;  and  before  the  same  shall 
have  force  shall  be  approved  by  him,  or  being  disapproved  by  him 
shall  be  repassed  by  the  Senate  &  House  of  Bep!  according  to  the 
rules  &  limitations  prescribed  in  the  case  of  a  Bill." 

M!  Shebman  thought  it  unnecessary,  except  as  to  votes  taking 
money  out  of  the  Treasury  which  might  be  provided  for  in  another 
place. 

On  *  Question  as  moved  by  W  Bandolph  * 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas:  not  present,  C^  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  DeL  ay. 
M^  ay.  V?  ay.  N.  C.  a:     S.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ay.« 

The  Amendment  was  made  a  Section  14.  of  Art  VI. 

Art:  VII.  Sect.  l.'»  taken  up. 

Ml  L.  Martin  asked  what  waa  meant  by  the  Committee  of  detail 

'Tlie  word  "votM"  is  tabsUtuted  in  the  tranieript  for  "Stetes." 

'  In  the  tnuiicript  the  vote  reads:  "  Maiaachuietts,  Delaware,  North  Caro- 
lina, aye — 3;  New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  New  Jtt»ey,  Pauuylrani*,  Maryland, 
Virginia,  Sonth  Carolina,  Oeorvia,  no— 8." 

'  The  transcript  does  not  italicize  the  word  "  Ten." 

'  The  word  "  the "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  phrase  "  it  was  agreed  to  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Penn- 
sylvania, Delaware,  Maryland,  Virsinia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye — 9 ;  New  Jersey,  no^l ;  Massachusetts,  not  present." 

'  See  page  340. 

•  Tbc  vfoTxU  "  wa«  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


410     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

in  the  exprewion  "  duties  "  and  "  imposts."  If  the  meaning  were 
the  same,  the  former  was  unnecewary ;  if  different,  the  matter  ouriit 
(0  be  made  clear. 

W  Wilson,  duties  are  applicable  to  many  objecta  to  which  the 
word  imposts  does  not  relate.  The  latter  are  appropriated  to  com- 
merce; the  former  extend  to  a  variety  of  objects,  as  stamp  duties  &c. 
M'.  Carroll  reminded  the  Convention  of  the  great  difference  of 
interests  among  the  States,  and  doubts  the  propriety  in  that  point  of 
▼iew  of  letting  a  majority  be  a  quorum. 

Mr  Mason  urged  the  necessity  of  connecting  with  the  power  of 
levying  taxes  duties  &c,  the  prohibition  in  Sect  4  of  art  VI  that  no 
tax  should  be  laid  on  exports.  He  was  unwilling  to  trust  to  its  being 
done  in  a  future  article.  He  hoped  the  North?  States  did  not  mean 
to  deny  the  Southern  this  security.  It  would  hereafter  be  as  desir- 
able to  the  former  when  the  latter  should  become  the  most  populous. 
He  professed  his  jealousy  for  the  productions  of  the  Southern  or  as  he 
called  them,  the  staple  States.  He  moved  to  insert  the  following 
amendment  "  provided  that  no  tax  duty  or  imposition  shall  be  laid 
by  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  States  on  articles  exported  from  any 
State  " 

Mr  Sherman  had  no  objecti<m  to  the  proviso  here,  other  than »  it 
would  derange  ttie  parts  of  the  report  as  made  by  the  Committee, 
to  take  them  ir  f  vA  an  order. 

M'.  RuTLiDOE,  It  being  of  no  consequence  in  what  order  points 
are  decided,  he  should  vote  for  the  clause  as  it  stood,  but  on  con- 
dition that  the  subsequent  part  relating  to  negroes  should  also  be 
agreed  to. 

Mt  GovEBNEUR  Morris  considered  such  a  proviso  as  inadmissible 
any  where.  It  was  so  radically  objectionable,  that  it  might  cost  the 
whole  system  the  support  of  some  members.  He  contended  that  it 
would  not  in  some  cases  be  equitable  to  tax  imports  without  taxing 
exports ;  and  that  taxes  on  exports  would  be  often  the  most  easy  and 
proper  of  the  two. 

M5  Madison  1.»  the  power  of  taxing  »  exports  is  proper  in  itself, 
and  as  the  States  can  not  with  propriety  exercise  it  separately,  it 
ought  to  be  vested  in  them  collectively.  2.*  it  might  with  particular 
advantage  be  exercised  with  regard  to  articles  in  which  America  was 
not  rivalled  in  foreign  markets,  as  Tob?  &c.    The  contract  between  the 

•  The  word  "  that "  is  here  inierted  in  the  tntnicript. 
-.o  "^f  ^P'reg  "  1  "  and  "2"  are  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "First"  ud 
"  Secondly."  "^ 

"The  words  "laying  taxes  on"  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for 
"  taxing."  ' 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  AUGUST  16,  1787  411 


French  Farmen  Oen'  and  MT  Morrii  itipalating  that  if  taxes  i^ 
be  laid  in  America  on  the  export  of  Tob?  they  d  b«  paid  by  the 
Farmen,  ihewed  that  it  waa  undentood  by  them,  that  the  price 
would  be  thereby  raited  in  America,  and  conaeqnently  the  taxes  be 
paid  by  the  European  Consumer.  8.*  it  wonld  be  mijnat  to  the 
States  whose  produce  waa  exported  by  their  neighbours,  to  leave  it 
ntbject  to  be  taxed  by  the  latter.  This  was  a  grievance  which  had 
already  filled  N.  H.  Con!  N.  Jerf  Del:  and  N.  Carolina  with  loud 
complaints,  as  it  related  to  imports,  and  they  would  be  equally 
authorised  by  taxes  by  the  States  on  exports.  4.*  The  South?  States 
being  most  in  danger  and  most  needing  naval  protection,  could  the 
less  complain  if  the  burden  ahould  be  somewhat  heaviest  on  them. 
5.'  we  are  not  providing  for  the  present  moment  only,  and  time  will 
equalize  the  situation  of  the  States  in  this  matter.  He  was  for  these 
reasons  agf*  the  motion 

Mr  WiLUAMBOM  considered  the  clause  proposed  agf  taxes  on 
exports  as  reasonable  and  necessary. 

M;  Elseworth  was  agr*  Taxing  exports;  but  thought  the  prohibi- 
tion stood  in  the  most  proper  place,  and  waa  agf  deranging  the  order 
reported  by  the  Committee 

H'.  Wilson  waa  decidedly  ag^  prohibiting  general  taxes  on  ex- 
ports. He  dwelt  on  the  injustice  and  impolicy  of  leaving  N.  Jersey 
Connecticut  Ae  any  longer  subject  to  the  exactions  of  their  commer- 
cial neighbours. 

M?  QniT  thought  the  legislature  oould  not  be  trusted  with  such 
a  power.  It  might  ruin  the  Country.  It  mig^t  be  exercised  par- 
tially, raising  one  and  depressing  another  part  of  it. 

HP  Govt  MoBus.  However  the  legislative  power  may  be  formed, 
it  will  if  disposed  be  able  to  ruin  the  Country.  He  considered  the 
taxing  of  exports  to  be  in  many  cases  highly  politic.  Virginia  has 
found  her  account  in  taxing  Tolwcco.  All  Countries  havug  peculiar 
articles  tax  the  exportation  of  them;  as  France  her  wines  and 
brandies.  A  tax  here  on  lumber,  would  fall  on  the  W.  Indies  ft 
punish  their  restrictions  on  our  trade.  The  same  is  true  of  live- 
stock and  in  some  degree  of  flour.  In  case  of  a  dearth  in  the  West 
Indies,  we  may  extort  what  we  please.  Taxes  on  exports  are  a  neces- 
sary source  of  revenue.  For  a  long  time  the  people  of  America  will 
not  have  money  to  pay  direct  taxes.  Seize  and  sell  their  effects  and 
.vou  push  them  into  Revolts. 

■The  figurei  "3"  and  "4"  we  cluingcd  in  the  tranacript  to  "Thirdlj" 
and  "  Fourthly."  r  j 

' The  figure  "S "  is  changed  in  the  tranicript  to  "And  finally." 


412     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

in  Mncn  wu  itrennous  agaiiut  vivinR  Congrm  power  to  t» 
exporu.  Such  tue.  were '  impolitic,  u  enc-ouraging  the  niaing  of 
•rticlci  not  meant  for  exportation.  The  Htatea  had  now  a  right 
where  their  lituation  permitted,  to  tax  both  the  importa  and  •,. 
porta  of  their  uncommercial  neighboura.  It  waa  enough  for  them 
to  aacriflco  one  half  of  ;t.  It  had  been  aaid  the  Southern  Statea  had 
moat  need  of  naval  protection.  The  reverie  waa  the  caae.  Wer. 
It  not  for  promoting  the  carrying  trade  of  the  North?  SUtea  the 
South?  Statea  could  let  their  trade  go  into  foreign  bottom.,  whe're  it 
would  not  need  our  protection.  Virginia  by  taxing  her  tobaoeo  had 
given  an  advantage  to  that  of  Maryland. 

MT  Shxhman.  To  examine  and  c^mpar«  th«  Statea  in  relation 
to  import,  and  export,  will  be  opening  a  boundleaa  field.  He  thought 
the  matter  had  been  adjuated.  and  that  importa  were  to  be  anbject 
and  export,  not,  to  »)e  taxed.  He  thought  it  wrong  to  tax  export^ 
except  a  might  be  auch  articlea  a.  ought  not  to  be  exported  The 
complexity  of  the  buaineaa  in  America  would  render  an  equal  tax 
on  export,  impracticable.  The  oppreadon  of  the  uncommercial 
State,  wa.  guarded  agf  by  the  power  to  regulate  trade  between  the 
State..  A.  to  compelling  foreigner.,  that  mirht  be  done  by  regulating 
trade  in  general.  The  Govermn.nt  would  uot  be  treated  with  roeh 
a  power.  Objection,  are  moat  likely  to  b«  excited  by  conwderation. 
relating  to  taxea  &  money.  A  power  to  tax  export,  would  ahipwreck 
the  whole. 

m  CAKtOL  waa  rarpriKd  that  any  objection  .honld  be  made  to 
an  exception  of  export,  from  the  power  of  taxation. 

It  wa.  finally  agreed  that  the  queation  concerning  exporta  M 
he  over  for  the  pUce  in  which  the  exception  atood  in  the  report: 
Mary?  alone  voting  ag?»  it 

Sect:  1.  [art  VII]'- »  agreed  to:  Ms  Gebrt  alone  aniwering  no. 
Clauw  for  regulating  commerce  with  foreign  nation.  4c»  asreed 
to  nem.  con. 

"  for  coining  money,  ag^  to  nem.  con. 
•  for  regulating  foreign  coin,  d?    d? 
*  for  fixing  the  atandard  of  weight.  &  meaaurea.  d?    d? 

^^hi."*!"?  ""'"  '•  •"^"i"ted  In  the  trantcript  for  "were" 

•  tS!  ZZa  ..         ..  *  t"*  inwrted  in  the  transcript.         "^ 
The  word  "wa."  »  here  inserted  in  the  tranacript 

eral  c  ."u  e^^-for^Tnin^li'^  f""^'  "!  '•^•»^  ^^  read  a.  follow.:  "Ser. 
atandaro/ wel°/htrn'd"^.ru%.Tl°^^^^^^^^^  -«*»«  ^^ 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  AUGUST  16,  lir  413 

» "  To  MUbluh  po«t-oflUm"  Mi  QnwT  moT«d  to  idd.  and  pott- 
roatU.    M^  Mucu  2^  4  on  >  qucition 

N.  H.  na  Mf  ay.  C*.  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pen*  no.  D«i.  ay.  M*  ay 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 

Mr  Oovi  Monn  mored  to  strike  out  "  and  emit  bUU  on  the  credit 
of  the  U.  State*  "—If  the  United  Sutes  had  credit  auch  bUla  would 
b<>  unneceaiary :  if  they  had  not,  unjuat  ft  uaeleaa. 

BT  BuTLEB,  2^  the  motion. 

MI  Madmon,  will  it  not  be  rafficient  to  prohibit  the  making  them 
a  tendtrf  Thia  will  remove  the  tempUtion  to  emit  them  with  un- 
just viewe.  And  promiasory  notea  in  that  ahape  may  in  aome  emer> 
emcicfl  be  best. 

M;  Gov*  Mouua.  strikincr  out  the  worda  will  leare  room  still  fbr 
notes  of  a  rtipomible  minister  which  will  do  all  the  good  without 
the  mischief.  The  Monied  interest  will  oppose  the  plan  of  Gorera- 
ment,  if  paper  emissiona  be  not  prohibited. 

Mr  Ohorum  was  for  striking  out,  without  inserting  any  prohibi* 
tion.  if  the  worda  stand  they  may  suggest  and  lead  to  the  meuure. 

Col.«  MAaoN  had  doubts  on  the  subject  Cong*  he  thought  would 
not  have  the  power  unless  it  were  expressed.  Though  he  had  a 
mortal  hatred  to  paper  money,  yet  aa  h«  could  not  foreaee  all  emer. 
ponces,  he  was  unwilling  to  tie  the  hands  of  the  Legislature.  He 
observed  that  the  late  war  could  not  have  been  carried  on,  had  aueb 
a  prohibition  existed. 

W.  Ghobum.  The  power  aa  far  aa  it  riU  be  neoeasary  or  safe  k 
involved  in  that    *  borrowing.  ' 

M'.  Mracia  wa.  a  friend  to  paper  money,  thou|^  in  the  present 
state  &  temper  of  America,  he  should  neither  propose  nor  approve 
of  such  a  measure.  He  waa  consequently  opposed  to  a  prohibition  of 
It  altogether.  It  will  stamp  suspicion  on  the  Government  to  deny 
It  a  discretion  on  this  point.  It  was  impolitic  a  *  to  excite  the 
opposition  of  all  those  who  were  friends  to  paper  money.  The  people 
of  property  would  be  sure  to  be  on  the  side  of  the  plan,  and  it  waa 
impolitic  to  purchase  their  further  attachment  with  the  loss  of  the 
opposite  class  of  Citizena 

Mr  Elsewobth  thought  thia  a  favorable  moment  to  shut  and  bar 
the  door  against  paper  money.    The  mischiefs  of  the  various  experi- 

|Tk«  word.  "The  cl«u*!"  «r«  here  iuerted  in  th»  trauKript. 

•  The  word     the     it  here  iiuerted  in  the  transcript. 

Vi.  •  •      o*  ^l*^"?}  *•■"  ''"**  '■*«<'•=    "  MaisachuBettB,  Delaware.   Marrland. 

J'rL""p      ^^  ^'.     V?'-  ?~'^*-  •y«-«=  New  Hampahire.  CoMertiV^ri^Sw 
•'*"*?'  Penmylvania,  North  Carolina'  bo— 8."  «»n«:iicuj,  atw 

•  The  word  "  Mr"  i.  substituted  In  the  traoiwript  tat  "  Col." 


414      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

menta  which  had  been  made,  were  now  f  reah  in  the  public  mind  and 
had  excited  the  disgust  of  all  the  r-spectable  part  of  America.  By 
witholding  the  power  from  the  new  Oovemt  more  friends  of  influ- 
ence would  be  gained  to  it  than  by  almost  any  thing  else.  Paper 
money  can  in  no  case  be  necessary.  Oive  the  Ctovemment  credit,  and 
other  resources  will  offer.    The  power  may  do  harm,  never  good. 

M?  Randolph,  notwithstanding  his  antipathy  to  paper  money, 
could  not  agree  to  strike  out  the  words,  as  he  could  not  foresee  all 
the  occasions  which '  might  arise. 

M^  Wilson.  It  will  have  a  most  salutary  influence  on  the  credit 
of  the  U.  States  to  remove  the  possibility  of  paper  money.  This 
expedient  can  never  succeed  whilst  its  mischiefs  are  remembered, 
and  as  long  as  it  can  be  resorted  to,  it  will  be  a  bar  to  other 
resources. 

Mt  BuTLSB.  remarked  that  paper  was  a  legal  tender  in  no  Coun- 
try in  Europe.  He  was  urgent  for  disarming  the  Government  of 
raeh  a  power. 

Ml  Mason  was  still  averse  to  tying  the  hands  of  the  Legislature 
altogether.  If  there  was  no  example  in  Europe  as  just  remarked,  it 
might  be  observed  on  the  other  side,  that  there  was  none  in  which 
the  Qovemment  was  restrained  on  this  head. 

Ml  Read,  thought  the  words,  if  not  struck  out,  would  be  as 
alarming  as  the  mark  of  the  Beast  in  Revelations. 

M!  Langdon  had  rather  reject  the  whole  plan  than  retain  the 
three  words  "  (and  emit  bills") 

On  the  motion  for  striking  out 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C^  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  i^r.  M«  no. 
V?  ay.*   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

The  clause  for  borrowing  money,*  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Adji 

*  Thii  vote  in  the  •fBrmative  by  Virg*  wst  occaiioned  by  the  acqnleteenee 
of  Mr  Madiion  who  become  latiafied  that  striking  out  the  word*  would  not 
diaable  the  Got*  from  the  uie  of  public  notes  at  far  a«  they  could  be  lafe  ft 

?. roper ;  &  would  only  ctit  off  the  pretext  for  a  paper  currency,'  and  particularly 
or  making  the  bilU  a  tender '  either  for  public  or  private  debta. 

'  The  word  "  that "  it  iubstituted  in  the  tranacript  for  "  which." 
'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  Xew  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Con- 
necticut, Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,*   North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
(Georgia,  aye — 9;  New  Jersey,  Maryland,  no— 2." 

*  The  transcript  Italicizes  the  words  "  paper  currency  "  and  "  a  tender." 

*  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  PMDAT,  AUGUST  17,  1787 


Fkidat  August  17^    ts  Conttotion 


415 


Art  VII.  Sect  1.*'  reroinecL  on  the  dause  "to  appoint* 
Treasurer  by  ballot." 

M'.  Ghobum  moved  to  in«ert  "  joint "  before  ballot,  at  more 
convenient  u  well  as  reaaonable,  than  to  require  the  eeparate  con- 
currence of  the  Senate. 

M?  PiNKKBT  2^  the  motion.  M»  Shxbium  oppoeed  it  as  favor^ 
ing  the  larger  States. 

M?  Read  moved  to  strike  ont  the  danse,  leaving  the  appointment 
of  the  Treasurer  as  of  other  officers  to  the  Executive.  The  Legisla- 
ture was  an  improper  body  for  appointments.  Those  of  the  State 
legislatures  were  a  proof  of  it  The  Executive  being  responsible 
would  make  a  good  choice. 

M?  Mebcib  2<!*  the  motion  of  Mt  Bead. 
On  the  motion  for  inserting  the  word  "  joint  "  before  ballot 
N.  H.  ay.    Mas.  ay.    C?  no.    N.  J.  no.    P?  ay.    W  no.    V*  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ^.* 

Col.  Mason  in  oppositioa  to  MT  Beads  motion  desired  it  might  be 

considered  to  whom  the  money  would  belong;  if  to  the  people,  the 

legislature  representing  the  people  ought  to  app<nnt  the  keepers  of  it 

On  striking  out  the  clause  as  amended  by  inserting  "  Joint  " 

N.  H.  no.    Mas.  no.    CI  no    P?  ay.    Dd.  ay.    W  sy.    Y*.  na 

N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

•"To  constitute  inferior  tribunals  "^  agreed  to  nem.  con.» 
"  To  make  rules  as  to  captures  on  land  &  water  "-  d?  d?  • 
*"  To  declare  the  law  and  punishment  of  pirades  and  felonies 
&c  "  &c"  considered. 

M^  Madison  moved  to  strike  out "  and  punishment  "  &c.*» 

W  Mason  doubts  the  safety  of  it,  considering  the  strict  rule  of 

'  See  page  340. 

'  The  word  "  was  "  ii  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript 

*  The  word  "  a  "  la  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Penn- 
sylvania, Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 7;  Con- 
necticut, New  Jersey,  Maryland,  no — 3." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
South  Carolina,  aye— 4;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Virginia, 
North  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 8." 

'  The  words  "  The  clause  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'The  word  "was"  is  here  inst-ted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  phrase  "  as  also  the  clause  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  words  "  do.  do."  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 
'"The  word  "being"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

"  In  the  transcript  the  following  phrase  is  here  added:  "after  the  words, 
'  To  declare  the  law.' " 


i 


L 

Itt, 

H  f 

t:> 
.^' 

■J- 


rfl 


»I1 


416      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

construction  in  criminal  cases.  He  doubted  also  the  propriety  of 
taking  the  power  in  all  these  cases  wholly  from  the  States. 

M'.  GoTERNt  Morris  thought  it  would  be  necessary  to  extend  the 
authority  farther,  so  as  to  provide  for  the  punishment  of  counter- 
feiting in  general.  Bills  of  exchange  for  example  might  be  forged 
in  one  State  and  carried  into  another : 

It  was  suggested  by  some  other  member  that  foreign  paper  migjit 
be  counterfeited  by  Citizens;  and  that  it  might  be  politic  to  provide 
by  national  authority  for  the  punishment  of  it. 

M!  Randolph  did  not  conceive  that  expunging  "  the  piiniah- 
ment  "  would  be  a  constructive  exclusion  of  the  power.  He  doubted 
only  the  efficacy  of  the  word  "  declare." 

Mt  Wilson  was  in  favor  of  the  motion.  Strictness  was  not  neces- 
sary in  giving  authority  to  enact  penal  laws;  though  necessaiy  in 
enacting  &  expounding  them. 

On  motion^  for  striking  out  "  and  punishment "  as  moved  by 
Mr  Madison 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  ay.  C*.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M*  no.  V»  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.  S.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ay.» 

W  Govt  Morris  moved  to  strike  oat  "  declare  the  law  "  and 
insert  "punish"  before  "piracies."  and  on  the  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C?  no.  P»  ay.  Del.  ay.  M*  ay.  V*  no. 
N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.» 

Mr  Madison,  and  M^  Rmtoolph  moved  to  insert,  "  define  4,"  be- 
fore "  pumsh." 

HP.  WasoN,  thought  "  felonies  "  sufficiently  defined  by  comimm 
law. 

W.  Dickenson  concurred  with  M!  Wilson. 

W  Mercib  was  in  favor  of  the  amendment. 

M^  Madison,  felony  at  common  law  is  vague.  It  is  also  defective. 
One  defect  is  supplied  by  Stat:  of  Anne  as  to  running  away  with 
vessels  which  at  common  law  was  a  breach  of  trust  only.  Besides  no 
foreign  law  should  be  a  standard  farther  than  *  is  expressly  adopted— 
If  the  laws  of  the  States  were  to  prevail  on  this  subject,  the  citizens 
of  di£ferent  States  would  be  subject  to  different  punishments  for 
the  same  offence  at  sea.    There  would  be  neither  uniformity  nor 

»  The  worda  "  the  question  "  are  Bub«tituted  In  the  tr»n«cript  for  "  motloa" 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 7;  New  Hampshire, 
Connecticut,  Maryland,  no — 3." 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Penn- 
wlvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  ay»— 7;  Coniwctinit, 
Vixginia,  North  Carolina,  no — 3." 

•  The  word  "  it "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  FBIDAT,  AUGUST  It,  1787 


417 


stability  in  the  law— The  proper  remedy  lor  all  theie  difflcultiee  waa 
to  vest  the  power  proposed  by  the  term  "  define  "  in  the  Nat?  legi^ 

lature. 

M!  Govt  MoBBis  would  prefer  detignate  to  define,  the  latter  being 
aa  he  he  conceived,  limited  to  the  preexisting  meaning.— 

It  was  said  by  othera  to  be  applicable  to  the  creating  of  offences 
also,  and  therefore  auited  the  case  both  of  felonies  ft  of  piracies.  The 
motion  of  JP  M.  ft  M?  E  was  agreed  to. 

MI  EunwoBTH  enlarged  the  motion  so  as  to  read  "  to  define  and 
punish  piracies  and  felonies  committed  on  the  high  seas,  counter- 
feiting the  securities  and  current  coin  of  the  U.  States,  and  offences 
ag?  the  law  of  Nations  "  which  was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

1"  To  subdue  a  rebelli<m  in  any  State,  on  the  application  of  its 

legislature."* 

M^  PiNKNBT  moved  to  strike  out  "  <m  the  apphcatum  of  its 

legislature  " 

M*  Govt  MoBBis  2^ 

W  L.  Maktim  opposed  it  as  ipving  a  dangerous  ft  unnecessary 
power.  Thfe  consoit  of  the  State  ought  to  precede  the  introc"  ction 
of  any  extraneous  force  whatever. 

SP  Mebgb  supported  the  opposition  of  MT  Martin. 

Ml  Elsiwowh  proposed  to  add  after  "  legiriature  "  "  or  Ex- 
ecutive." .     V     J  -* 

W  Gov?  MoBUB.  The  Executive  may  possibly  be  at  the  head  of 
the  Rebellion.  The  Gen!  GovJ  should  enforce  obedience  in  all  cases 
where  it  may  be  necessary. 

M'.  BiSKWOEiH.  In  many  esses  The  GenI  GovJ  oug^t  not  to  be 
able  to  interpose,  unless  called  upon.  He  was  willing  to  vary  hie 
motion  so  as  fa  read,  "  or  without  it  when  the  legislature  cannot 

meet." 

MI  Gkrbt  was  ag!'  letting  loose  the  myrmidons  of  the  U.  States 
on  a  State  without  its  own  cwisent  The  States  will  be  the  best 
Judges  in  such  cases.  More  blood  would  have  been  spilt  in  Mass**  in 
the  late  insurrection,  if  the  GenI  authority  had  intermeddled. 

Mt  Lanodon  was  for  striking  out  as  moved  by  M'.  Pinkney.  The 
apprehension  of  the  national  force,  will  have  a  salutary  effect  in 
preventing  insurrections. 

Mr  Randolph.  If  the  Nati  Legislature  is  to  judge  whether  the 
State  legislature  can  or  cannot  meet,  that  amendment  would  make 
the  clause  as  objectionable  as  the  motion  of  Mr  finkney. ^ 

•The  word*  "The  datwe"  *re  here  Inierted  in  the  tiunecript. 

•  The  phrase  "  wai  next  considered  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


418      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

M'.  Gk>v!  Moans.  We  are  acting  a  very  strange  part.  We  flnt 
form  a  strong  man  to  protect  us,  and  at  the  same  time  wish  to  tie 
his  bands  behind  him,  The  legislature  may  surely  be  trusted  with 
such  a  power  to  preserve  the  public  tranquility. 

On  the  motion  to  add  "  or  without  it  [application]  when  the 
legislature  cannot  meet  "  * 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  d  ay.  Pf  diyi  Del.  no.  M*  no.  Vf  i^. 
N.  C.  div^    S.  C.  ay.    Oeo.  ay.*    So  agreed  to—* 

M^  Madison  and  W-  Dickenson  moved  to  insert  as  explanatory, 
after  "  State  " — "  against  the  GJovemment  thereof  "  There  might 
be  a  rebellion  agf  the  U.  States — ^which  *  was  Agreed  to  nem.  coo. 

On  the  clause  as  amended 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas  *  aba!  CI  ay.  Pen.  abs.*  Del.  no.  W  no.  V*  ay. 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Qeorg.  ay — so  it  was  lost.* 

•"  Tomake  war  " 

Mt  PiNKNET  opposed  the  vesting  this  power  in  the  Legislature. 
Its  proceedings  were  too  slow.  It  wf  meet  but  <mce  a  year.  The  H! 
of  Rep!  would  be  too  numerous  for  such  deliberations.  The  Senate 
would  be  the  best  depositary,  being  more  acquainted  with  foreign 
affairs,  and  most  capable  of  proper  resolutions.  If  the  States  are 
equally  represented  in  ^  Senate,  so  as  to  give  no  advantage  to '  large 
States,  the  power  will  notwithstanding  be  safe,  as  the  small 
have  their  all  at  stake  in  such  cases  as  well  as  the  large  States.  It 
would  be  singular  for  one  authority  to  make  war,  and  another  peace. 

MT  Bx;tleb.  The  objections  ag!*  the  L^pslatnre  lie  in*  great 
degree  agT  the  Senate.  He  was  for  vesting  the  power  in  the  Pren- 
dent,  who  will  have  all  the  requisite  qualities,  and  will  not  make 
war  but  when  the  Nation  will  support  it. 

Mc  Madison  and  W.  Oebbt  moved  to  insert  "  declare,"  striking 
out  "  make  "  war;  leaving  to  the  Executive  the  power  to  repel  sud- 
den attacks. 

Mr  Shashan  thought  it  stood  very  well.    The  Executive  shI  be 

*  In  the  printed  Journal,  Mu.  no. 

■  The  phrase  "  it  wai  agreed  to  "  it  here  added  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  tranecript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Vir- 
ginia, South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 5;  Massachusetts,  Delaware,  Uaryland, 
BO — 3;  Pennsylvania,  North  Carolina,  divided." 

■  The  words  "  So  agreed  to  "  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  words  "  The  motion  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  which." 

■  In  the  transcript  the  vote  retda:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Virginia, 
Georgia,  aye — 1;  Delaware,  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 4; 
Massachusetts,*  Pennsylvania,  absent.    So  it  was  lost." 

'  The  words  "  The  clause "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
'The  word  "the"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  •  "  it  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  17,  1787 


419 


able  to  repel  and  not  to  commence  war.  "  Make  "^  better  than 
"  declare  "  the  latter  narrowing  the  power  too  much. 

M!  Oebbt  never  expected  to  hear  in  a  republic  a  motion  to  em- 
power the  EzecntiTe  alone  to  declare  war. 

M'.  Elswobth.  there  is  a  material  difference  between  the  casea 
of  making  war  and  making  peact.  It  ah^  be  more  eauy  to  get  out  of 
war,  than  into  it.  War  also  is  a  simple  and  overt  declaration,  peace 
attended  with  intricate  &  secret  negociations. 

W  Mason  was  ag?  giving  the  power  of  war  to  the  Executive, 
because  not  safely  to  be  trusted  with  it ;  or  to  the  Senate,  because  not 
BO  constructed  as  to  be  entitled  to  it.  He  was  for  dogging  rather 
than  facilitating  war;  but  for  facilitating  peace.  He  preferred 
"  dedan  "  to  "  make.'* 

On  the  motion  to  insert  declare — ^in  place  of  make,  it  was  agreed  to. 
N.  H.  no.  Mas.  abst.  Con!  no.*  P?  ay.  DeL  ay.  Ml  ay.  V?  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

M^  Pin^mtt's  motion  to  strike  out*  whole  clause,*  disag^  to 
without  call  of  States. 

M^  BuTLXB  moved  to  give  the  Legislature  *  po^cr  of  peace,  as  they 
were  to  have  that  of  war. 

M!  Gerrt  2<^  him.  8  Senators  may  possibly  exercise  the  power 
if  vested  in  that  body,  and  14  if  all  should  be  present ;  and  may  con- 
sequently give  up  part  of  the  U.  States.  The  Senate  are  more  liable 
to  be  corrupted  by  an  Enemy  than  the  whole  Legislature. 

On  the  motion  for  adding  "  and  peaee  "  after  "  war  "  * 

N.  H.  no.    Mas.  no.    G  no.    P?  na    Del.  no.    M4  no.    V?  no. 


N.  C.  no    S.  C.  no. 


Geo.  no.* 

Adjourned 


**  On  tiM  renark  by  M'.  King  that  "mak*"  war  mii^t  be  understood  to 
"conduct"  it  which  waa  an  Executive  function,  M'  Elieworth  --«<">  up  his 
objection,  and  the  vote  of  Con' '  waa  clianged  to— ay. 


*  The  word  "  is  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  tranicript  here  insert*  the  following:  "  Connecticut  voted  in  the  nega- 
tive; but." 

*  The  words  "  of  Con* "  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,*  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 8;  New 
Hampshire,  no — 1 ;  llassachnsetts,  absent." 

■  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  transcript  here  adds  the  following:  "  it  waa  unanimously  Begatived." 

*  The  vote  by  States  is  omitted. 


Ill 


420     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


Satubdat  Auoust  18.    in  Contintion 

M!  Madison  submitted  in  order  to  be  referred  to  the  Committee 
of  detail  the  following  powers  as  proper  to  be  added  to  thoee  of 
the  General  Legislature 

"To  dispose  of  the  unappropriated  lands  of  the  U.  States" 

"To  institute  temporary  Oovemments  for  New  States  arisinc 
therein"  • 

"To  regulate  affairs  with  the  Indians  as  well  within  as  with- 
er' the  limits  of  the  U.  States 

To  exercise  exclusively  Legislative  authority  at  the  Seat  of  the 
General  Govemment,  and  over  a  district  around  the  same,  not  ex- 
eeeding  square  miles;  the  Consent  of  the  Legislature  of  the 

State  or  States  comprizing  the  same,  being  first  obtained" 

"To  grant  charters  of  incorporation  in  cases  where  the  public 
good  may  reqaire  them,  and  the  authority  of  a  single  State  may  be 
incompetent" 

"To  secure  to  literary  authors  their  copy  rights  for  a  limited 
time" 

"To  establish  an  University" 

"To  encourage  by  premiums  ft  provisions,  the  advancement  of 
useful  knowledge  and  discoveries" 

"To  authorize  the  Executive  to  procure  and  hold  for  the  use 
of  the  U.  S.  landed  property  for  the  erection  of  Ports,  Magacines, 
and  other  necessary  buildings" 

These  propositions  were  referred  to  the  Committee  of  detail 
which  had  prepared  the  Report  and  at  the  same  time  the  following 
which  were  moved  by  M^  Pinkn^:  in  both  cases  unanimously. 

1.  'lT°a**  "^^  permanently  establish  the  seat  of  Govemment  of 
the  U.  S.  in  which  they  shall  possess  the  exclusive  right  of  soil  ft 
jurisdiction" 

"To  establish  seminaries  for  the  promotion  of  literature  and  the 
arts  &  sciences" 

"To  grant  charters  of  incorporation" 

"To  grant  patents  for  useful  inventions" 

||To  secure  to  Authors  exclusive  rights  for  a  certain  time" 
To  establish  public  institutions,  rewards  and  immunities  for 

..Pm?"°*i?°j°'  agriculture,  commerce,  trades  and  manufactures" 
r    r.    J  *  ^^'"''  "^*''  "'*  appropriated  for*  payment  of  pub- 

lic Creditors,  shall  not  during  the  time  of  such  appropriation,  be 
diverted  or  applied  to  any  other  purpose  and  that  the  Committee  pre- 
pw*  a  clause  or  clauses  for  restraining  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S. 
irom  estabbshmg  a  perpetual  revenue" 


•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  AUGUST  18,  1787  421 

"To  secore  the  payment  of  the  public  debt" 

"To  MCiire  aU  crediton  under  the  New  Constitoti  n  from  a 
violation  of  the  public  faith  when  pledged  by  the  authority  of  the 
Legislature" 

"To  grant  letters  of  mark  and  reprisal" 

"To  regulate  Stages  on  the  peat  roada" 

IR  Masok  introduced  the  subject  of  regulating  the  militia.  H« 
thought  such  a  power  necessary  to  be  given  to  the  Qtaai  Ooyemment. 
He  hoped  there  would  be  no  standing  army  in  time  of  peace,  unless 
it  might  be  for  a  few  garrisons.  The  Militia  ou^t  therefore  to  be 
the  more  effectually  prepared  for  the  public  defence.  Thirteen 
States  will  never  concur  in  any  one  system,  if  the  displining  of 
the  Militia  be  left  in  their  hands.  If  they  will  not  give  up  the  power 
over  the  whole,  they  probably  will  over  %  part  as  a  select  militia.  He 
moved  as  an  addition  to  the  propositions  just  referred  to  the  Commit- 
tee of  detail,  &  to  be  referred  in  like  manner,  "  a  power  to  regulate 
the  militia." 

W-  GiRRT  remarked  that  some  provision  ouc^t  to  be  made  in 
favor  of  public  Securities,  and  something  inserted  concerning  letters 
of  marque,  which  he  thought  not  included  in  the  power  of  war.  He 
proposed  that  these  subjects  should  also  go  to  a  Committee. 

H^  SxrruDOK  moved  to  refer  a  clause  "  that  funds  appropriated 
to  public  cp-  utors  should  not  be  diverted  to  other  purposes." 

MT  Masok  was  much  attached  to  the  principle,  but  was  afraid 
such  a  fetter  mi|^t  be  dangerous  in  time  of  war.  He  su(n;ested  the 
necessity  of  preventing  the  danger  of  perpetual  revenue  which  must 
of  necessity  subvert  the  liberty  of  any  Country.  If  it  be  objected  to 
on  the  principle  of  W.  Butlidge's  motion  that  public  credit  may 
require  perpetual  provisions,  that  ease  might  be  excepted:  it  being 
declared  that  in  other  cases,  no  taxes  should  be  laid  for  a  longer 
term  than  years.   He  considered  the  caution  observed  in  Great 

Britain  on  this  point  as  the  paladium  of  the  public  liberty. 

W.  Rutudoe'b  motion  was  referred — He  then  moved  that  a 
Grand  Committee  be  appointed  to  consider  the  necessity  and  expedi- 
ency of  the  U.  States  assuming  all  the  State  debts — A  regular  settle- 
ment between  the  Union  &  the  several  States  would  never  take  place. 
The  assumption  would  be  just  as  the  State  debts  were  contracted  in 
the  common  defence.  It  was  necessary,  as  the  taxes  on  imports  the 
only  sure  source  of  revenue  were  to  be  given  up  to  the  Union.  It 
was  politic,  as  by  disburdening  the  people  of  the  State  debts  it  would 
conciliate  them  to  the  plan. 

iP  KiN<3  and  Mt  Pinkney  seconded  the  motion 


422     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

[Col.  Mason  interpoMd  a  motion  that  the  Committee  prq>an  a 
clause  for  reatrainiog  perpetual  revenue,  which  waa  agreed  to  nem. 
con.] 

lit  Shxhhan  thought  it  would  be  better  to  authoriae  the  Legis- 
lature to  assume  the  State  debts,  than  to  say  positively  it  should 
be  done.  He  considered  the  measure  as  just  and  that  it  would  have 
a  good  effect  to  say  something  about  the  Matter. 

Ml  Elsxwobth  differed  from  31'.  Sherman-  As  far  as  the  State 
debts  ought  in  equity  to  be  assumed,  he  conceived  that  they  might  and 
would  be  so. 

M^  PiNKNBT  observed  that  a  great  part  of  the  State  debta  were 
of  such  a  nature  that  although  in  point  of  policy  and  true  equity 
they  ought,»  yet  wo  d  they  not  be  viewed  in  the  light  of  fisderal 
expenditures. 

Mr  Kmo  thought  the  matter  of  more  consequence  than  M!  Else- 
worth  seemed  to  do;  and  that  it  was  well  worthy  of  commitment 
Besides  the  considerations  of  justice  and  policy  which  had  been  men- 
tioned, it  might  be  remarked  that  the  State  Creditors  an  active  and 
formidable  party  wonld  otherwise  be  opposed  to  a  plan  which  trans- 
ferred to  the  Union  the  best  resources  of  the  States  without  trans- 
ferring the  State  debts  at  the  same  time.  The  State  Creditors  had 
generally  been  the  strongest  foes  to  the  impost-plan.  The  State 
debts  probably  were  of  greater  amount  than  the  foederal.  He  would 
not  say  that  it  was  practicable  to  consolidate  the  debts,  but  he  thought 
it  would  be  prudent  to  have  the  subject  considered  l^  a  Committee. 
On  Mr  Ru^.dge's  motion,  that*  Com?  be  appmnted  to  consider  of 
the  assumption  &c  ■ 

N.  H.  no.    Mas. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

MX  Gerry's  motion  to  provide  for  public  securities,  for  stages  on 
post-roads,  and  for  letten  of  marque  &  reprisal,  were*  committed 
cem.  con. 

W  Kino  suggested  that  all  unlocated  lands  of  particular  States 
ought  to  be  given  up  if  State  debts  were  to  be  assumed: Ml  Wil- 
liamson concurred  in  the  idea. 


aj.    CUy.    N.  J.  na    P?  div*   DeL  no.    Mf  na 


« The  word*  "  to  be  "  are  here  iuerted  in  the  truucript. 

•  The  word  "  a  "  ii  here  iuertml  in  the  tranicript. 

•The  tranicript  here  adds  the  following;  "it  was  agreed  to" 
v^Jun  *•'?.*'*«•"'?*  the  vote  i*«4s:  « MaasachuaetU.  Connecticut,  Virginia, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  New  HampdUre.  New  Jertey, 
Delaware,  Maryland,  no — 4;  Penniylvania,  divided." 

, '  In  the  transcript  the  word  ''were"  Is  croued  out  and  "was"  is  written 

abore  it. 


SESSION  OP  8ATURDAT,  AUGUST  18,  1787  423 

A  Qrtnd  CommittM  wa»  appointed  conuating  of  •  transfer  hither 
the  appointment  k  namea  of  the  Conunittw.'  [The  Com!  appointed 
by  ballot  were  •  M!  Langdon,  M^  King,  W  Sherman,  Mi  Livingrton, 
m  Clymer,  Ml  Dickenwn,  M?  M?Henry,  MI  Mawm,  MT  Willianron, 
Mr  C.  C.  Pinkney,*  iSf  Baldwin.] 

Mr  BcTUDox  remarked  on  the  length  of  the  Seeaion,  the  prob- 
able impatience  of  the  public  and  the  extreme  anxiety  of  many 
members  of  the  Convention  to  bring  the  busincM  to  an  end;  con- 
cluding with  a  motion  that  the  Convention  meet  henceforward  pre- 
cisely at  10  OC.  A.  M.  and  that  precisely  at  4  OC.  P.  M.  the  President 
adjourn  the  House  without  motion  for  the  purpose,  and  that  no 
motion  to  adjourn  sooner  be  allowed 
On  this  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  M*  no. 
V?  ay.  N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.« 

W.  EuBEW<»TB  observed  that  a  Council  had  not  yet  been  pro- 
vided for  the  President  He  eonceived  there  ou^t  to  be  one.  His 
proposition  was  that  it  should  be  composed  of  the  President  of  the 
Senate— the  Chief-Justice,  and  the  ministers  as  th^  might  be  esUb*. 
for  the  departments  of  foreign  ft  domestic  affairs,  war  finance  and 
marine,  who  should  advise  but  not  oonelude  the  President. 

W  PuncNBT  wished  the  proposition  to  lie  over,  as  notice  had  been 
given  for  a  lil  purpose  by  MT  Govi  Morris  who  was  not  then  on  the 
floor.  His  0-  idea  waa  that  the  President  ubi  bo  authorised  to 
call  for  advi  ,  or  not  aa  he  might  chuse.  Give  him  an  able  Council 
and  it  will  thwart  him;  a  weak  one  and  ha  will  shelter  himself  under 
their  sanction. 

M!  Qebbt  was  ag!*  letting  the  heada  of  the  departments,  par- 
ticularly of  finance  have  any  thing  to  do  in  business  connected  with 
legislation.  He  mentioned  the  Chief  Justice  also  aa  particularly  ex- 
ceptionable. These  men  will  also  be  so  taken  up  with  other  matters 
u  to  ne^ect  their  own  proper  duties. 

Ml  DicKKNBON  urged  that  the  great  appointmenta  should  be  made 
by  the  Legislature,  in  which  case  they  might  property  be  consulted 
by  the  Executive,  but  not  if  made  by  the  Executive  himself— This 
subject  by  general  consent  lay  over;  &  the  House  proceeded  to  the 
clause  "  To  raise  armies." 

*  Madiaon'*  dinetioa  is  omitted  in  the  trsnieript  ..^^  .   .     ^v 

•The  phrMe  "The  Own?  mppolnted  by  ballot  were"   ia  omitted  in  the 

transcript.  .  ,  ^ 

•The  word  "and"  iahara  Inaertedin  the  tranicript.  ^      ^     r. 

•In  the  traiucript  the  Toto  wad.:  "New  HuipAire  MaMachuaetta,  Con- 
necticut,   New  Jeraejr.   Delaware,   Virginta,   North   Carolina.    South   Carolina. 

Georgia,  aye — 9;  Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  no — 8." 


424     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

M?  Oborux  moved  to  add  "  and  aupport  "  after  "  raiae." 
Agreed  to  nam.  eon.  and  then  the  elauae '  agreed  to  nem.  con.  aa 
amended 

M!  Oewy  took  notice  that  there  waa  no  check  here  agf«  atandinc 
armiea  in  time  of  peace.  The  exiating  Cong*  ia  ao  conatrocted  that  it 
cannot  of  itaelf  mainUin  an  army.  Thia  w*  not  be  the  caae  nnder 
the  new  ayatem.  The  people  were  jealooa  on  thia  htmi,  and  great 
oppoaition  to  the  plan  would  epring  from  auch  an  omiaaion.  He  aua- 
pected  that  preparationa  of  force  were  now  making  agf  it.  [he 
•eemed  to  allude  to  the  activity  of  the  Gov^  of  N.  York  at  thia  criaia  in 
diaciplining  the  militia  of  that  State.]  He  thought  an  army  dange^ 
oua  in  time  of  peace  &  could  never  consent  to  a  power  to  keep  up  an 
indefinite  number.  He  propoaed  that  there  ahall »  not  be  kept  up  in 
time  of  peace  more  than  thouaand  troopa.    Hia  idea  waa  that 

the  blank  should  be  filled  with  two  or  three  thousand. 

Instead  of  "to  build  and  equip  fleeta"— "to  provide  t  main- 
tain a  navy  "  *  agreed  to  nem.  con.  aa  a  more  convenient  definition  of 
the  power. 

*"  To  make  rules  for  the  Government  and  regulation  of  the  land 
&  naval  forces,"  •  added  from  the  existing  Articles  of  Confederation. 

Mt  L.  Martin  and  Mr  Gerry  now  regularly  moved  "  provided 
that  in  time  of  peace  the  army  shall  not  conaiat  of  more  than 
thousand  men." 

Gen?  PiNKNET  asked  whether  no  troops  were  ever  to  be  raiaed 
until!  an  attack  should  be  made  on  usT 

M'.  Gerrt.  if  there  be  no  restriction,  a  few  States  may  establish 
a  military  Gov? 

Mt  WiLUAMSON,  reminded  him  of  Mr  Mason's  motion  for  limiting 
the  appropriation  of  revenue  as  the  best  guard  in  this  caae. 

Mr  Lanodon  saw  no  room  for  M!  Gerry's  distrust  of  the  Rep- 
resentatives of  the  people. 

Mr  Dayton,  preparations  for  war  are  generally  made  in  •  peace; 
and  a  standing  foree  of  some  sort  may,  for  ought  we  know,  become 
unavoidable.  He  should  object  to  no  restrictions  consistent  with 
these  ideas. 

The  motion  of  Mr  Martin  &  Mr  Gerry  was  disagreed  to  nem.  ccm. 

M'.  Mason  moved  as  an  additional  power  "  to  make  laws  for  the 

regulation  and  discipline  of  the  militia  of  the  several  States,  reserving 

•  The  word  "  wa»  "  is  htn  inwrted  in  the  trmmcript. 
■  The  word  "  should  "  is  robrtituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  iball  " 
•The  word  "was"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
•TTie  words  "A  clause"  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
The  words     time  of "  are  here  inserted  in  ihc  traoseript 


SESSION  OP  SATUBDAY,  AUGUST  18,  1787  426 

to  tlM  SUtcs  th*  •ppointnunt  of  th*  ofBeen."    He  eomidered  oni- 
foraity  M  ntetmrj  in  the  rtgnUtion  of  th*  Miltti*  throoghout  Um 

Union.  .    _j..  u      j- 

OcnJ  PnoofiT  mentioned  ■  oue  ^.oiiac  the  war  in  which  a  di»- 
limUarity  in  the  mUitia  of  different  SUtea  had  produced  the  moat 
lerious  mwchiefe.  Uniformity  waa  eaiential.  The  Statea  would  never 
keep  up  a  proper  diacipline  of  their  militia. 

MI  Elwwouth  waa  for  going  aa  far  in  aubmitting  the  militia  to 
the  Gen.'  Government  aa  might  be  neceaaary,  but  thought  the  motion 
of  W.  Maaon  went  too  far.  He  moved  that  the  militia  ahould  have 
the  same  arma  k  exerdae  and  be  under  rulea  eaUbliahed  by  the 
Gen.'  GovJ  when  in  actual  aervice  of  the  U.  SUtea  and  when  SUtea 
neglect  to  provide  regulationa  for  militia,  it  ah*  be  regulated  *  eaUb- 
llshed  by  the  Legialature  of  U.  S.  The  whole  authority  over  the 
Militia  ought  by  no  means  to  be  taken  away  from  the  Statea  whoae 
consequence  would  pine  away  to  nothing  after  auch  a  aacriflce  of 
power.  He  thought  the  Gen!  Authority  could  not  aufBciently  per- 
vade the  Union  for  auch  a  purpoae,  nor  could  it  accomodate  itaelf 
to  the  local  geniua  of  the  people.  It  muat  be  vain  to  aak  the  SUtea 
to  give  the  Militia  out  of  their  handa. 

M:  Shkrman  21*  the  motion. 

MI  DicKENSOK.  We  are  come  now  to  a  moat  important  matter, 
that  of  the  Bword.  His  opinion  waa  that  the  SUtea  never  would  nor 
ought  to  give  up  all  authority  over  the  MilitU.  He  propoaed  to  re- 
strain the  general  power  to  one  fourth  part  at  a  time,  which  by 
rotation  would  discipline  the  whole  Militia. 

W.  Butler  urged  the  necemty  of  aubmitting  the  whole  Mihtia  to 
the  general  Authority,  which  had  the  care  of  the  general  defence. 

MT  Mason,  had  suggested  the  idea  of  a  aelect  nulitia.  He  WM  l^ 
to  think  that  would  be  in  fact  as  much  aa  the  Gen.'  GovJ  could  ad- 
vantageously be  charged  with.  He  waa  afraid  of  creating  insuperable 
objections  to  the  plan.  He  withdrew  hia  original  motion,  and  moved 
a  power  "  to  make  laws  for  reguUting  and  diaciplining  the  militia, 
not  exceeding  one  tenth  part  in  any  one  year,  and  reserving  the 
appointment  of  oflScera  to  the  SUtes." 

Gea'  PiNKNET,  renewed  MJ  Maaon'a  original  motion.  Foi  a  part 
to  be  under  the  Gea'  and  •  part  under  the  SUte  Qov«?  w4  be  an  incur- 
able pvil.    he  saw  no  room  for  such  distruat  of  the  Gen?  Gov. 

m  Lanodon  2*  Gen!  Pinkney'a  renewal.  He  saw  no  more 
reason  to  be  afraid  of  the  GenJ  Gov*  than  of  the  SUte  Gov*    He  waa 


'  TTie  word  "  the  "  i»  here  inserted  In  the  tranicrlpt. 
•The  word  "a"  i«  here  inwrtcd  in  ih*  tranacnpt. 


428     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

mort  Apprehciidve  of  tb«  eonfntion  of  th«  difTennt  aathoritiM  oa 
thJ*  rabiMt,  than  of  either. 

Mr  Madison  thought  the  rvfalation  of  the  MilitU  natanlly  appeiw 
tainiat  to  the  anthoritjr  eharged  with  the  paUie  defence.  It  did  not 
leem  in  ita  nature  to  be  dividble  between  two  diatinet  authoritiea. 
If  the  Sutca  woold  trust  the  Gea'  Oovl  with  a  power  over  the  publie 
treasure,  they  would  from  the  tame  consideration  of  necessity  grant 
it  the  direction  of  the  pablic  force.  Those  who  had  a  fall  view  of 
the  pablic  sitaation  w^  from  a  sense  of  the  danger,  gaard  agf*  it: 
the  States  woald  not  be  separately  impressed  with  the  general  sit* 
nation,  nor  haye  the  doe  eonfldenee  in  the  ooneorrent  exertions  of  each 
other. 

Mr  ELnwoRTB.  considered  the  idea  of  a  select  militia  as  im- 
practicable; ft  if  it  were  not  it  woold  be  followed  by  a  ruinoos  de- 
densioii  of  the  great  body  of  the  Militia.  The  Stotes  will*  nerer 
submit  to  the  same  militia  laws.  Three  w  four  shilling's  as  a  penalty 
will  enforce  obedience  better  in  New  England,  than  forty  lashes  in 
some  other  places. 

M?  PiNKNCT  thought  the  power  each  an  one  as  could  not  be 
abused,  and  that  the  States  would  see  the  necessity  of  surrendering 
it.  He  had  however  but  a  scanty  faith  in  Militia.  There  must  be 
also  a  real  military  force.  This  alone  can  effectually  answer  the 
purpose.  The  United  States  had  been  making  an  experiment  without 
it,  and  we  see  the  consequence  in  their  rapid  approaches  towards 
anarchy.* 

M!  Shebuan,  took  notice  that  the  State*  might  want  their  Militia 
for  defence  agi*  invasions  and  insurretsiions,  and  for  enforcing  obe- 
('.ience  to  their  laws.  They  will  not  give  up  this  point.  In  giving 
up  that  of  taxation,  they  retain  a  concurrent  power  of  raising  money 
for  their  own  use. 

Ml  Oeskt  thought  this  the  last  point  remaining  to  be  surrendered. 
If  it  be  agreed  to  by  the  Convention,  the  plan  will  have  as  black  a 
mark  as  was  set  on  Cain.  He  had  no  such  confidence  in  the  Gen! 
Gov*  as  some  gentlemen  professed,  and  believed  it  would  be  found 
that  the  States  have  not. 

Col.  Mason,  thought  there  was  great  weight  in  the  remaria  of 
5IT  Sherman,  and  moved  an  exception  to  his  motion  "  of  such  part  ol 
the  Militia  as  might  be  required  by  the  States  for  their  own  use." 

Ml  Read  doubted  the  propriety  of  leaving  the  appointment  of  the 

•This  had  reference  to  the  diiorders  particularly  which  had  occnrred  in 
Masgnch'i;  which  had  called  for  the  interposition  of  the  federal  troopa. 

'  Tlic  word  "  T^ouid  "  is  gabstituted  lu  the  Irauacripl  for  "  wUI," 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  AUGUST  20,  1T8T 


427 


Uilitia  ofBecn  in  *  the  Statat.  In  aooM  SutM  thajr  ar*  dtetad  Ifj  tb« 
le^atunt;  in  others  by  the  people  themielvee.  He  thonght  •' 
leut  an  appointment  bjr  the  State  ExecntiTee  ought  to  be  insiated  o. 

On '  oommittinc  to  the  grand  Committee  last  appointed,  the  latter 
motion  of  Col.  Maaon,  ft  the  original  one  reviTed  by  Oe!  Pinkney 

N.  H.  ay.   Maa.  ay.   Q  no.    N.  J.  no.    Pf  ay.    0«L  ay.    M*.  div^ 
V»  «y.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Adjoomed 


MONOAT  AVOCBT  20.     Of  CONVXNTIOir. 

M*.  PnncNiT  aubmitted  to  the  Honae,  in  order  to  be  referred  to 
the  Committee  of  detaQ,  the  following  pn^poaition^- 

"Each  Hooae  ahall  be  the  Judge  of  ita  own  privilegea,  and  ihall 
have  authority  to  pnniah  by  impriaonment  every  peraon  violating  the 
same;  or  who,  in  the  place  where  the  Legialatnre  may  be  sitting  and 
during  the  time  of  ita  Seeaion,  ahall  threaten  any  of  ita  memben  for 
any  thing  aaid  or  done  on  the  Hoas»— or  who  ahall  aaianlt  any  of 
them  therefor — or  who  ahall  aaaault  or  arreat  any  witneaa  or  other 
person  ordered  to  attend  either  of  the  Houset  in  hia  way  going  or 
returning;  or  who  ahall  reaeue  any  person  arrested  by  their  order." 

"Each  branch  of  the  Legislature,  aa  well  aa  the  anpreme  Execu- 
tive shall  have  authority  to  require  the  opiniona  of  the  supreme 
Judicial  Court  upon  important  qneationa  of  law,  and  upon  aolemn 
occasions" 

"The  privilegea  and  benefit  of  the  Writ  of  Habeaa  corpua  shall 
be  enjoyed  in  thia  Government  in  the  moat  expeditioua  and  ample 
manner;  and  shall  not  be  suspended  by  the  Le^slatnre  except  upon 
the  most  urgent  and  presaing  occaaiona,  and  for  a  limited  tmie  not 
exceeding  montha." 

"The  liberty  of  the  Preaa  ahall  be  inviolably  preserved" 

"No  troops  shall  be  kept  up  in  time  of  peace,  but  by  consent  of 
the  Legidature" 

"The  military  shall  alwajrs  be  subordinate  to  the  Civil  power,  and 
no  (rrants  of  money  shall  be  made  by  the  Legislature  for  supporting 
military  Land  forces,  for  more  than  one  year  at  a  time" 

"No  soldier  shall  be  quartered  in  any  House  in  time  of  peace 
without  consent  of  the  owner." 

"No  person  holding  the  office  of  President  of  the  U.  S.,  a  Judge 
of  their  supreme  Court,  Secretary  for  the  department  of  Foreign 
Affairs,  of  Finance,  of  Marine,  of  War,  or  of  ,  shall  be  capable 

■  The  word  "  in  "  it  eroHed  out  in  the  truscript  and  "  to  "  ii  written  above  it. 
•  The  wordg  "  the  queition  for  "  are  here  inserted  In  the  transcript. 
•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Penn- 
sylvania, Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 8; 

Ctir.nrrticat,  New  Jersey,  no — 8;  Maryland,  dirided." 


428      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

of  holding  at  the  same  time  any  other  office  of  Trust  or  Emolanwnt 
under  the  U.  S.  or  an  individaal  State  " 

"No  religious  test  or  qualification  shall  ever  be  annexed  to  any 
oath  of  office  under  the  authority  of  the  U.  S." 

"The  U.  S.  shall  be  for  ever  considered  as  one  Body  corporate  and 
politic  in  law,  and  entitled  to  all  the  rights  privileges  and  immunities, 
which  to  Bodies  corporate  do  or  ought  to  appertain" 

"The  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  shall  have  the  power  of  making  the 
great  seal  which  shall  be  kept  by  the  President  of  the  U.  S.  or  in 
his  absence  by  the  President  of  the  Senate,  to  be  used  by  them  as 
the  occasion  may  require.— It  shall  be  called  the  great  Seal  of  the 
U.  S.  and  shall  be  affixed  to  all  laws." 

"All  Commissions  and  writs  shall  run  in  the  name  of  the  U.  S." 

"The  Jurisdiction  of  the  supreme  Court  shall  be  extended  to  all 
controversies  between  the  U.  S.  and  an  individual  State,  or  the  U.  S. 
and  the  Citizens  of  an  individual  State" 

These  propositions  were  referred  to  the  Committee  of  detail  with- 
out debate  or  consideration  of  them,  by  the  House. 

Mr  Govl  Morris  2**  hy  Mr  Pinknet  submitted  the  following 
propositions  which  were  in  like  manner  referred  to  the  Committee  of 
Detail. 

"To  assist  the  President  in  conducting  the  public  affairs  there 
shall  be  a  council  of  State  composed  of  the  following  officers —  1. 
The  Chief  Justice  of  the  Supreme  Court,  who  shall  from  time  to 
time  recommend  such  alterations  of  and  additions  to  the  laws  of 
the  U.  S.  as  may  in  his  opinion,  be  necessary  to  the  due  administration 
of  Justice,  and  such  as  may  promote  useful  learning  and  inculcate 
sound  morality  throughout  the  Union:  He  shall  be  President  of  the 
Council  in  the  absence  of  the  President 

2.  The  Secretary  of  Domestic  Affain  i^o  shall  be  appointed  by 
the  President  and  hold  his  office  during  pleasure.  It  shall  be  his 
duty  to  attend  to  matters  of  general  police,  the  State  of  Agriculture 
and  manufactures,  the  opening  of  roads  and  navigations,  and  the 
facilitating  communications  thro'  the  U.  States;  and  he  shall  from 
time  to  time  recommend  such  measures  and  establishments  as  may 
tend  to  promote  those  objects. 

3.  The  Secretary  of  Commerce  and  Finance  who  shall  also  be 
appointed  by  the  President  during  pleasure.  It  shall  be  his  duty  to 
superintend  all  matters  relating  to  the  public  finances,  to  prepareNl 
report  plans  of  revenue  and  for  the  regulation  of  expenditures,  and 
also  to  recommend  such  things  as  may  in  his  Judgment  promote  the 
commercial  interests  of  the  U.  S. 

4.  The  Secretary  of  foreign  affairs  who  shall  also  be  appointed 
by  the  President  during  pleasure.  It  shall  be  his  duty  to  comspond 
with  all  foreign  Ministers,  prepare  plans  of  Treaties,  ft  consider 
such  as  may  be  transmitted  from  abroad ;  and  generally  to  attend  to 
the  intereats  of  the  U.  S.  in  their  connections  with  foreign  powers. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  20,  1787  429 

5.  The  Secretary  of  War  who  ■hall  alao  be  appointed  by  the 
President  daring  pleasure.  It  shall  be  hia  du^y  to  superintend  every 
thing  relating  to  the  war-Department,  such  as  the  raising  and 
equipping  of  troops,  the  care  of  military  stores,  public  fortifications, 
arsenals  &  the  like-^also  in  time  of  war  to  prepare  ft  recommend  plans 
of  offence  and  Defence. 

6.  The  Secretary  of  the  Marine  who  shall  also  be  appointed 
during  pleasure— It  shall  be  his  duty  to  superintend  every  thing 
relatmg  to  the  Marine-Department,  the  public  Ships,  Dock-Tards, 
Naval-Stores  &  arsenals— also  in»  time  of  war,  to  prepare  and 
recommend  plans  of  offence  and  defence. 

The  President  shall  also  appoint  a  Secretary  of  State  to  hold  his 
office  dunng  pleasure;  who  shall  be  Secretaiy  to  the  Council  of  State, 
and  also  public  Secretary  to  the  President.  It  shall  be  his  duty  to  pre- 
pare  all  public  despatches  from  the  President  which  he  aban  counter- 
sign 

The  President  may  from  time  to  time  submit  any  matter  to  the 
discussion  of  the  Council  of  State,  and  he  may  require  the  written 
opinions  of  any  one  or  more  of  the  members:  But  he  shall  in  all 
cases  eierorae  his  own  juogment,  and  either  Conform  to  such  opinions 
or  not  as  he  may  think  proper;  and  every  c^Scer  abovementioned 
shall  be  responsible  for  his  opinion  on  the  tflain  relating  to  his 
particular  Department. 

Each  of  the  officers  a  ementioned  shall  be  liable  to  impeach- 
ment. &  removal  from  office  for  neglect  of  duty  malvereation.  or  cw- 
ruption"  -,        w. 


Mr  Gerbt  moved  "  that  the  Committee  be  inatructed  to  report 
proper  qualifications  for  the  President,  and»  mode  of  trying  the 
Supreme  Judges  in  cases  of  impeachment. 

The  clause  "  to  caU  forth  the  aid  of  the  Militia  ftc.  was  post- 
poned till  report  should  be  made  as  to  the  power  over  the  Militia 
referred  yesterday  to  the  Grand  Ciwunittee  of  eleven. 

MT  Mason  moved  to  enable  Congress  "  to  enact  sumptuary  laws." 
No  Government  can  be  maintained  unless  the  manners  be  made  con- 
sonant to  it.  Such  a  discretionary  power  may  do  good  and  can  do  no 
harm.  A  proper  regulation  of  excises  ft  of  trade  mi^  do  a  great 
deal  but  it  is  best  to  have  an  express  provision.  It  was  objected  to 
sumptuary  laws  that  they  were  contrary  to  nature.  This  was  a  vulgar 
error.  The  love  of  distinction  it  is  true  is  natural;  but  the  object 
of  sumptuary  laws  is  not  to  extinguish  this  principle  but  to  give  it  a 
proper  direction. 

M'.  ELBEwmTH.    The  best  remedy  is  to  enforce  taxes  ft  debts. 


'  The  word  "  the  "  i*  here  inierted  in  the  tMnecript. 
•The  word  ■*»"  U  here  inierted  in  the  tnuwcript 


430      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Aa  far  aa  tbe  regulation  of  eating  &  drinking  can  be  reasonable,  it  ia 
provided  for  in  the  power  of  taxation. 

M!  Gov'.  Montis  argued  that  sumptnary  laws  tended  to  create  a 
landed  Nobility,  by  fixing  in  the  great-landholders  and  their  posterity 
their  present  possessions. 

M!  OzBBT.    the  law  of  necessity  is  the  best  sumptuary  law. 

On  '■  Motion  of  W  Mason  "  as  to  Sumptuary  laws  " 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  €*■  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  no.  Del.  ay.  M*  ay. 
V»  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

* "  And  to  make  all  laws  necessary  and  proper  for  carrying  into 
execution  the  foregoing  powers,  and  all  other  powers  vested,  by  this 
Constitution,  in  the  Government  of  the  U.  S.  or  any  department  or 
officer  thereof." 

Mr  Madison  and  M^  Pinkjiet  moved  to  insert  between  "  laws  " 
and  "  necessary  "  "  and  establish  all  offices,"  it  appearing  to  them 
liable  to  cavil  that  the  latter  wan  not  included  in  the  former. 

W-  Govt  Morris,  M?  Wilson,  M^  Rdtudge  and  M(  Elsewobth 
nrged  that  the  amendment  could  not  be  necessary. 

On  the  motion  for  inserting  "  and  establish  all  offices  " 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  ay.  C!  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  ay. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

The  clause  as  reported  was  then  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Art-:  VII  sect.  2.*  concerning  Treason  which  see.* 

M^  Madison,  thought  the  definition  too  narrow.  It  did  not  appear 
to  go  as  far  as  the  Stat,  of  Edwl  III.  He  did  not  see  why  nun* 
latitude  might  not  be  left  to  the  Legislature.  It  w^  be  as  safe  at 
in  the  hands  of  State  legislatures;  and  it  was  inconvenient  to  bar 
a  discretion  which  experience  might  enlighten,  and  which  might  be 
applied  to  good  purposes  as  well  as  be  abused. 

Mt  Mason  was  for  pursuing  the  Stat :  of  Edwl  HI 

M^  Gov!  Morris  was  for  giving  to  the  Union  an  exclusive  right  to 
declare  what  shl  be  treason.  In  case  of  a  contest  between  tbe  U.  S. 
and  a  particular  State,  the  people  of  the  latter  must,  under  the  dia> 
junctive  terms  of  the  clause,  be  traitors  to  one  or  other  authority. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  i*  here  inwrtod  in  the  tranarript. 

'In  the  traoRcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Dcrlaware,  Maryland,  Georgia,  aye — S; 
Kew  Hampshire,  MaaaachuMtta,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Fennaylvama,  VlrniBls, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no — 8." 

'  The  worda  "  On  the  clauae  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  tranacript. 

*  In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "  Massaohuaetta,  Maryland,  aye— 2;  Kew 
Eampahire,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— Q." 

•  See  page  341. 

*  In  the  transcript  the  words  "  which  see "  are  rrosh^d  out  and  the  pbnse 
"  was  then  taken  up  "  is  written  above  them. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  20,  1787 


431 


Mf  Bantolph  tliooi^t  the  cUiue  defective  in  adopting  the  word* 
"  in  adhering  "  only.  The  British  Stat:  adds,  "  giving  them  aid 
and  comfort "  which  had  a  more  extensive  meaning. 

M'.  Elskwobth  considered  the  definition  as  the  same  in  fact  with 
that  of  the  SUtate. 

M;  Govf  MoBBis  "  adhering  "  does  not  go  so  far  as  "  giving  aid 
and  Comfort"  or  the  latter  words  may  be  restrictive  of  "adhering," 
in  either  case  the  Statute  is  not  pursued. 

Mf  WitaoN  held  "  giving  aid  and  comfort  "  to  be  explanatory, 
not  operative  words;  and  that  it  was  better  to  omit  them. 

M'.  Dickinson,  thought  the  addition  of  "  giving  aid  &  comfort  " 
unnecessary  &  improper;  being  too  vague  and  extending  too  far. 
He  wished  to  know  what  was  meant  by  the  "  testimony  of  two  wit- 
nesses" whethof  they  were  to  be  witnesses  to  the  same  overt  act  or 
to  different  overt  acts.  He  thought  also  that  proof  of  an  overt- 
act  ou^t  to  be  expressed  as  essential  in  the  case. 

Doc?  Johnson  considered  "  giving  aid  &  comfort  "  as  explana- 
tory of  "  adhering  "  &  that  something  should  be  inserted  in  the 
definition  eoneeming  overt-acts.  He  contended  that  Treason  could 
not  be  both  ag?  the  U.  States— «nd  individual  States;  being  an 
offence  ag?  the  Sovereignty  which  can  be  but  one  in  the  same 
community. 

Mf  Madsbon  remarked  that  "  and "  before  "  in  adhering " 
should  be  rhanged  into  "  or  "  otherwise  both  offences  viz  of  levy- 
ing war,  &  of  adhering  to  the  Enemy  might  be  necessary  to  con- 
stitute Treason.  He  added  that  as  the  definition  here  was  of  treason 
against  the  V.  8.  it  would  seem  that  the  individual  SUtes  w4  be  left 
in  possession  of  a  concurrent  power  so  far  as  to  define  &  punish 
treason  particularly  agf»  themselves;  which  might  involve  doable 
punishm^ 

It  was  moved  that  the  whole  clause  be  recommitted  which  was 
lost,  the  votes  being  equally  divided. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CJ  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  ay.  Del.  no.  M*.  ay. 
Vfay.   N.  C.  div«    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.— * 

Mr  Wilson  &  Doci  Johnson  moved,  hat  "  or  any  of  them  " 
after  "  United  States  "  be  struck  out  in  on^er  to  remove  the  embar- 
rassment: which  was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

MT  Madison.    This  had*  not  removed  th?  embarrassment.    The 


•In  tho  tr»n«cript  the  vote  r»«d«!  "New  Jergey,  PeiiiiiTlT»Bi».  Maryland, 
Virginm.  Georgia,  ay*— 6;  New  Hampahire,  Ma«aacli\  aetU,  Connecticut,  Dela- 
ware, South  Carolina,  hd— 5;  North  Carolina,  diyided."        „^    .„ 

•  The  word  " has"  il  tubatituted  in  the  tranacript  ior     had. 


? 


I    A 


it 


432      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

same  Act  might  be  treason  agf  the  United  SUtes  aa  here  defined^ 
and  ag!*  a  particular  State  according  to  its  laws. 

Mr  Elsewobth.  There  can  be  no  danger  to  the  gen."  aathoritj 
from  this ;  as  the  laws  of  the  U.  States  are  to  be  paramount. 

Dod  Johnson  was  still  of  opinion  there  could  be  no  Treason  ag!* 
a  particular  State.  It  could  not  even  at  present,  as  the  Confederation 
now  stands,  the  Sovereignty  being  in  the  Union ;  much  less  can  it  be 
under  the  proposed  system. 

Col.  Mason.  The  United  States  will  have  a  qualified  sovereignty 
only.  The  individual  States  will  retain  a  part  of  the  Sovereignty. 
An  Act  may  be  treason  ag!*  a  particular  State  which  is  not  so  agf 
the  U.  States.  He  cited  the  Bebellion  of  Bacon  in  Virginia  as  an  illus- 
tration of  the  doctrine. 

Doc'.  Johnson:  That  ease  would  amount  to  Treason  agf  tht 
Sovereign,  the  Supreme  Sovereign,  the  United  States. 

MJ  King  observed  that  the  controversy  relating  to  Treason  mif^t 
be  of  less  magnitude  than  wai  supposed;  as  the  Legislature  mi^t 
punish  capitally  under  other  names  than  Treason. 

M^  Gov.  Morris  and  Mi  Randolph  wished  to  substitute  the  words 
of  the  British  Statute  and  moved  to  postpone  Sect  2.  art  VII  in 
order  to  consider  the  following  substitute—"  Whereas  it  ia  essential 
to  the  preservation  of  liberty  to  define  precisely  and  exclusively 
what  shall  constitute  the  crime  of  Treason,  it  is  therefore  ordained, 
declared  &  established,  that  if  a  man  do  levy  war  ag^  the  U.  S., 
within  their  territories,  or  be  adherent  to  the  enemies  of  the  U.  S. 
within  the  said  territories,  giving  them  aid  and  comfort  within  their 
territories  or  elsewhere,  and  thereof  be  provably  attainted  of  open 
deed  by  the  people  of  his  condition,  he  shall  be  adjudged  guilty  of 
Treason." 

On  this  question 

N.  H.  Mas.  no.  CJ  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  no.  Del.  no.  Mi  no.  V»  ay. 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

It  was»  moved  to  strike  out  "ag?»  United  States"  after 
"  treason  "  so  as  to  define  trc;  son  generally,  and  on  this  question 

Mas. ay.  C?ay.  N.J. ay.  P?ay.  Delay,  M*ay.  Vfno.  N.C.no. 
8.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ey.* 


-k  M"  I?'  tr«n»"lpt  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jersey,  Virginia,  ay*-2;  Mana- 
jiZin'.'  ^°""""«»*'  Pennsylvania.  Delaware,  Maryland,  Sorth  Ciroltaa,  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 8. 

•  The  word  "  then  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  pe  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

T.,„J"i.    *   fan^-ript    the    vote    .-eads:    "Massachusetts,    Connecticut,    New 

vZ^H^ZY^'Ai^'^l''  '^''"°''   "'"*''   *^"°""''  «*-'"^'  '^^ 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  20,  1787 


433 


It  vaa  then  moved  to  inwrt  after  "  two  witnesse*  ''  the  words  "  to 
the  same  overt  act" 

Doc!  FsAMKLW  wished  this  amendment  to  take  place-  prosecntiona 
for  treason  were  generally  virulent ;  and  perjury  too  easily  made  use 
of  against  innocence. 

W.  WnsoN.  much  may  be  said  on  both  sides.  Treason  may 
sometimes  be  practised  in  such  a  manner,  as  to  render  proof 
extremely  difficult — as  in  a  traitorous  correspondence  with  an 
Enemy. 

On  the  question — as  to  same  overt  act 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  aj.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V?  no.   N.  C.  m .    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

W.  Kino  movsd  to  insert  before  the  word  "  power  "  the  word 
"  sole,"  giving  the  U.  States  the  exclusive  right  to  declare  the  puniah- 
ment  of  Treason. 

Mt  Bbook  2^  the  motion. 

W  Wii£OM  in  cases  of  a  general  nature,  treason  can  only  be 
agf  the  U —  States,  and  in  such  they  sM  have  the  sole  right  to 
declare  the  punishment — ^yet  in  many  cases  it  may  be  otherwise.  The 
subject  was  however  intricate  and  he  distrusted  his  present  judgment 
on  it 

Ml  Kino  this  amendment  resnlta  from  the  vote  defining,  treason 
generaUy  by  striking  out  ag!*  the  U.  States;  which  excludes  any 
treason  ig?  particular  State*.  These  may  however  punish  offences 
as  high  misdemesnors. 

On '  inserting  the  word  "  sole."   It  paned  in  the  negative 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  O  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M^  no. 
V?  no.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Qea  na— • 

Mt  WiuK>N.  the  clause  is  ambiguous  now.  "  Sole  "  ought  either 
to  have  been  inserted-  or  "against  the  U.  S."  to  be  re-instated. 

M'.  Kino  no  line  can  be  drawn  between  levying  war  and  adher- 
ing to*  enony-  ag!*  the  U.  States  and  agf  an  individual  State — 
Treason  ag!*  the  latter  must  be  so  agf  the  former. 

MT  Sherman,  resistance  agf*  the  laws  of  the  U.  States  as  dis- 
tinguished from  resistance  agf*  the  laws  of  a  partieular  State,  forms 
the  line. 


'In  the  tranMript  the  Tote  re*dt:  "New  Hampihire,  KMMchuietta,  Con- 
necticut, PennsylTmnia,  Delaware,  Maryland,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 8; 
New  Jeney,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  no— S." 

'  The  word*  "  the  queetion  for  "  are  here  inierted  in  the  tranaeript. 

'In  the  tranecript  the  vote  readi;  "New  Hampihire,  MaMaehnwttt,  Penn- 
sylvania, De'aware,  South  Carolina,  aye — 6;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Mary- 
land, Virjrinia.  North  Carolina.  Q«oreia.  no — 6." 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inierted  in  the  transcript. 


434      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Mt  EusKWORTH.  tbe  U.  S.  (ire  aoTeraign  on  their  *  aide  ot  the  line 
dividing  the  junsdictioiw— the  States  on  the  other— each  onght  to 
have  power  to  defend  their  reapective  Sovereigntiea. 

W  Dickenson,  war  or  inaorrectim  agf*  a  member  of  the  Union 
must  be  ao  ag!*  the  whole  body ;  but  the  Constitution  ahoold  be  "fudft 
clear  on  this  point. 

The  clause  was  reconsidered  nem.  con— A  then,  MI  Wilson  ft  IC 
Elsbworth  moved  to  reinstate  "  agf  the  U.  S."  after  "  Tnaami  "— 
on  which  question 

N.  H,  no.  Mas.  no.  C5  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  DeL  ao.  ilK  $j. 
Vf  ay.    N.  O.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.« 

M:  Madison  was  not  satisfied  with  the  footing  on  which  the  elaoM 
now  stood.  Aa  Treason  agf*  the  U.  States  involves  treason  ag?  par- 
ticular  States,  and  vice  versa,  the  same  act  may  be  twice  tried  ft 
punished  by  the  different  authorities.  ilR  Govt  Mobbis  viewed  the 
matter  in  the  same  light — 

It  was  moved  ft  Z*^  to  amend  the  sentence  to  read—"  Treaaon 
agt'  the  U.  S.  ahall  consist  only  in  levying  war  against  them,  or  in 
adhering  to  their  enemies"  which  was  agreed  ta 

Col.  Mason  moved  to  insert  the  words  "  giving  them  aid*  eom- 
fort, ' '  as  restrictive  of  "  adhering  to  their  Enemies  ftc. "  the  latter  he 
thou^t  would  be  otherwise  too  indefinite — This  motion  was  agreed 
to:  Con!  Dei:  &  Georgia  only  being  in  the  Negative. 

M(  L.  Mabtin  mo?ed  to  insert  after  conviction  fto — "  ot  on  con- 
fession in  open  court"— and  on  the  question,  (the  negative  States 
thinking  the  words  superfluous)  it  was  agreed  to 

N.  H:ay.  Ma8.no.  CJ  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P.  ay.  Dd.  a^.  M*  aj. 
V?ay.    N.  C.  div<    S.  C.  no.    Geo.no.* 

Art:  Vn.  Sect.  2,  as  amended  was  then  agreed  to  nem.  con. 

» Sect.  3  •  taken  up  "  white  ft  other  "  struck  out  nem.  eon.  ai 
superfluous. 

Mr  Elskwobth  moved  to  require  the  first  censoa  to  be  taken 


'  The  word  "  or    "  is  lubstituted  in  the  tranicript  for  "  their." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:   "Connecticut,  New  Jerser,  ICarylsiid. 

Virginia,    North   Carolina,   Georgia,   aye— 6;    New   Hamiwhirs,   ibimuhimtU, 

Pennsyivania,  IVIaware,  South  Carolina,  no — 6." 

•  The  word  "  and  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  revls:  "New  Hampshire,  CoDneeiicnt,  New 
Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Blaiyland,  Virginia,  aye— 7;  MsMaekuMtts, 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 3:  North  Carolina,  divided." 

•  In  the  transcript  this  sentence  reads  as  follows:  "  Articl*  7,  Sect  S  was 
taken  up.    The  words  'white  and  others,'  were  struck  out". 

•  See  page  341. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAT,  AUGUST  21,  1787 


435 


within  "three"   instead  of  "liz"  yean  from  the  flnt  meeting 
of  the  LegiaUtore— «Bd  on  *  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Maa.  ay.  e  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M*  ay 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    G«a  no.» 

HI  Kino  aaked  what  was  the  preciae  meaning  of  dinct  taxation  1 
No  one  anawl 

MT  Oekrt  moved  to  add  to  the  *  31  Seet  art  VII,  the  following 
clause  "That  from  the  first  meeting,  of  the  Lqrialature  of  the  U.  S. 
until  a  Caums  shall  be  taken  all  moniea  for  supplying  the  public 
Treasury  by  direct  taxation  shall  be  raised  from  the  several  State* 
according  to  the  number  of  their  RepreientatiTes  respectively  in  the 
first  branch  " 

W  Lansdon.  Thia  would  bear  unreasonably  hard  on  N:  H.  and 
he  must  be  agf  it 

M^  CARROti.  opposed  it.  The  number  of  Sep!  did  not  admit  of  a 
proportion  exact  enou|^  for  a  rule  of  taxation. 

Before  any  question  the  House 

Adjourned 


TimsDAT  AuausT  21.    In  Convention 

Govemour  Livinoston  from  the  Committee  of  Eleven  to  whom 
was  referred  the  propositions  respecting  the  debts  of  the  several 
States  and  also  the  Militia  entered  on  the  18^  inst:  delivered  the 
following  report: 

"The  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  shall  have  power  to  fulfil  the  en- 
gagements which  have  been  entered  into  by  Congress,  and  to  discharge 
as  well  the  debts  of  the  U.  S.  as  the  debts  incurred  by  the  several 
States  during  the  late  war,  for  the  cmnmon  defence  and  general  wel- 
fare" 

"To  make  laws  for  organizing  arming  and  disciplining  the  militia, 
and  for  governing  such  part  of  them  as  may  be  employed  in  the 
service  of  the  U.  S.  reserving  to  the  States  respectively,  the  appoint- 
ment of  the  officers,  and  the  authority  of  training  the  Militia  accord- 
ing to  the  discipline  prescribed  by  the  U.  States" 

Mr  Obhrt  considered  giving  the  power  only,  without  adopting  the 
obligation,  as  destroying  the  security  now  enjoyed  by  the  public 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tmnseript. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hunpritire,  Massachusetts,  Coa- 
ni-oticut.  New  Jersey.  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Marylaad,  Virginia,  North  Caro- 
lina, ave — 9:  South' Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8." 

*  i'he  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


436      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

erediton  of  the  U —  SUtei.  He  enlarged  on  the  merit  of  thi«  elan 
of  citizens,  and  the  lolemn  faith  which  had  been  pledged  under  the 
ezifting  Confederation.  If  their  litnation  ahould  be  changed  u 
here  proposed  great  opposition  would  be  excited  ag!*  the  plan.  He 
urged  also  that  as  the  States  had  made  different  degrees  of  exertion 
to  sink  their  respective  debts,  those  who  had  done  most  woold  be 
alarmed,  if  they  were  now  to  be  saddled  with  a  share  of  the  debts 
of  States  which  had  done  least. 

Mr  SHxatKAN.  It  means  neither  mam  nor  less  than  the  confed- 
eration as  it  relates  to  this  sabject. 

M!  Elsewortb  moved  that  the  Report  delivered  in  hj  Gov?  lav* 
ingston  shoold  lie  on  the  table.^    Agreed  to  nem.  con. 

Art:  VII.  Sect.  3.'  resumed. — W  Dickznbok  moved  to  postpone 
this  in  order  to  reconsider  Art:  IV.  Sect  4.  and  to  limit  the  number  of 
representatives  to  be  allowed  to  the  large  States.  Unless  this  were 
done  the  small  States  wonld  be  redaced  to  entire  insignificancy,*  and 
encouragement  given  to  the  importation  of  slaves. 

M'.  Sherman  would  agree  to  such  a  reconsideration,  but  did  not 
see  the  necessity  of  postponing  the  section  before  the  House.— MS 
Dickenson  withdrew  his  motion. 

Art:  VII.  Sect.  3.*  then  agreed  to  10  ayi.  Delaware  alone  being* 
no. 

W  Sherman  moved  to  add  to  Sect.  8.  the  following  clause  "and 
all  accounts  of  supplies  furnished,  services  performed,  and  monies 
advanced  by  the  several  States  to  the  U.  States,  or  by  the  U.  8.  to  the 
several  States  shall  be  adjusted  by  the  same  rule  " 

M!  Govern?  Morris  2^  the  motion. 

W  Qhorum,  thought  it  wrong  to  insert  this  in  the  Constitution. 
The  Legislature  will  no  doubt  do  what  is  right.  The  present  Con- 
gress have  such  a  power  and  are  now  exercising  it. 

W.  Sherman  unless  some  rule  be  expressly  given  none  will  axiit 
under  the  new  system. 

W  Elseworth.  Though  The  contracts  of  Congress  will  be  bind- 
ing,  there  will  be  no  rule  fcr  executing  theut  on  the  States;  and  one 
ought  to  be  provided. 

W.  Sherman  withdrew  his  motion  to  make  way  for  one  of  Mt 
Williamson  to  add  to  Sect  3.  "By  this  rule  the  several  quotas  of  the 
States  shall  be  determined  in  Settling  the  expences  of  the  late  mr." 

•  The  words  "  whii''-  ■>n»"  are  her*  inierted  in  the  timnictipt. 
'  The  words  "  was  liten  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  tranicript 

'  The  word  "  insi^iflcancj  "  is  changed  to  "  insigniflcance^'  in  the  tranicript 

*  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  word  "  being  "  i*  omitted  ia  ibe  transcript. 


BBSSION  OF  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  21,  1787  487 

M;  Camwl  brought  into  view  the  difficulty  th«t  might  •«•  <« 
this  iubject  from  the  ertablirimieiit  of  the  Conrtitution  m  intended 
without  the  unaiwmou*  consent  of  the  SUtee 
W  Williamson's  motion  was  poctponcd  nem-  eon- 
Art-  VI  Sect.  12.*  which  had  been  portponed  Aug:  16.»  waa  now 
called  for  by  Col.  Mabon,  who  wished  to  know  how  the  proposed 
amendment  as  to  money  bills  would  be  decided,  before  he  agreed  to 

any  further  points.  Ji_^ 

IK  Gerry's  motion  of  yesterday  that  prewms  to  a  census,  direct 
taxation  be  proportioned  on  the  States  according  to  the  number  of 
Representatives,  was  taken  up.  He  ob«!rved  that  the  pnn«pal  act. 
ol  GoTemment  would  probably  take  place  within  that  I«"o<i;";J  it 
was  but  reasonable  that  the  States  should  pay  in  proportion  to  their 

share  in  them.  _«,«♦ 

m  Elbewowh  thought  such  a  rule  unjust  there  was  a  great 
difference  between  the  number  of  Eepresentf,  and  the  number  of  m- 
habitants  .a  a  rule  in  this  case.  Eyen  if  tl^  former  were  P«>P<>rti«aed 
aa  nearly  as  possible  to  the  latter,  it  would  be  a  very  inaccurate  rule. 
IZ^Z,^^^  one  Representative  only  t^t  h^mhabh«U 
enough  for  1%  or  more,  if  fractiona  could  be  appbed.  4c-.  He  pro- 
posed to  amend  the  motion  by  adding  the  words  "subject  to  a  final 
Sedation  by  the  foregoing  rule  when  a  census  shall  have  been 

M!  Madison.  The  last  apportionment  of  (Jongf,  on  which  the 
number  of  Eepresentativea  waa  founded,  »"  ««>i*«*°j;^^^'l  '»**°* 
only  as  a  temporary  rule  till  a  Census  should  be  established 

Ml  Bead.  The  requisitions  of  CongS  had  been  accomodated  to 
the  the  impoverishments  produced  by  the  war;  and  to  other  local  and 
temporary  circumstanee*— 

Ml  WiLUAMBON  opposed  M*.  Gerry'a  motion 

Mt  Lanodon  was  not  here  when  N.  H.  was  allowed  three  mem- 
bers.  If » it  was  more  than  her  share ;  he  did  not  wish  for  them. 

W  BuTua  contended  warmly  for  m  Gerry's  motion  aa  founded 

in  reason  and  equity.  .  , 

Mt  Emewobth'b  proviso  to  MX  Gerry's  motion  was  agreed  to 

^^MrKiNO  thought  the  power  of  taxation  given  to  the  Legislature 
rendered  the  motion  of  M'.  Gerry  altogether  unnecessary. 


".  n/:Sd2^on  th.  Mt^th  <rf  A«g«t"  .r.  .ubrtit«Ud  in  th.  t»a.«i»k 


•  The  Void  "  If  "  U  (anitted  i»  tb«  traMcript 


438      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

On  Ml  Oerry'f  motion  as  amended 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  ay.  CJ  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del,  no.  M"?  no. 
Vf  no.    N.  Ci.  divl    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.> 

On  a  queation,  Shall  Art:  VI  Sect  12.  with  the  amendment  to 
it  proposed  &  entered  (m  the  15  instant,  aa  called  for  by  Col.  Mason 
be  now  taken  apt  it  paaed  in  the  Negative. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas  no.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M*  ay. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay,    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no » 

M^  L.  Mastim.  The  power  of  taxation  is  moat  likely  to  be  eriti- 
cised  by  the  pablic.  Direct  taxation  should  not  bo  used  but  in  ease 
of  abaolate  necessity;  and  then  the  States  will  be  best  Judges  of 
the  mode.  He  therefore  moved  the  following  addition  to  Sect:  3,  Art: 
Vn  "And  whenever  the  Legislature  of  the  U:  S:  shall  find  it  neces- 
sary that  revenue  should  be  raised  by  direct  taxation,  having  appor- 
tioned the  same,  according  to  the  above  rule  on  the  several  States, 
requisitions  shall  be  made  of  the  respective  Statea  to  pay  into  the 
Continental  Treasury  their  respective  quotas  within  a  time  in  the 
said  requisitions  specified,  and  in  case  of  any  of  the  States  failing  to 
comply  with  such  requisitions,  then  and  then  only  to  devise  and  paa 
acts  directing  the  mode,  and  authorizing  the  collection  of  the  same" 

M!  M'Hbnbt  2*';'  the  motion— there  waa  no  debate,  and  on  tha 
question 

N.  H.  no.  G!  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Pen?  no.  DeL  no.  M^  dlvl  (Jenifer 
&  Carrol  no).   Vfno.   N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  no.   Geo.no.* 

Art.  VII.  Sect,  4.«' »— Mr  Lanodon.  by  this  section  the  Statea  an 
left  at  liberty  to  tax  expcrta.  N.  H.  therefore  with  other  non- 
exporting  States,  will  be  subject  to  be  taxed  by  the  States  exporting 
its  produce.  This  could  not  be  admitted.  It  seems  to  be  feared  that 
the  Northern  States  will  oppress  the  trade  of  the  South?  This  may 
be  guarded  ag?  by  requiring  the  concurrence  of  H  or  H  of  the  legis- 
lature in  such  cc£cs. 

MT  Elsewobth.  It  is  best  as  it  stands.  The  power  of  regulating 
trade  between  the  States  will  protect  them  ag^  each  other.  Should 
this  not  be  the  case,  the  attempts  of  one  to  tax  the  produce  of  another 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads  "  MaauchusetU,  South  Carolina,  myt—t; 
New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware.  Ma^Uad. 
Virginia,  Georgia,  no — 8;  North  Carolina,  divided." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Vir- 
ginm,  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  aye— 6j  Masaachuwtts,  New  JerMT.  F«u- 
•ylvaniii,  Delaware,  South  Carolina,  Oeoreia,  no— 6." 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jersey,  aye— 1;  New  Hampshire, 
Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  VirginU,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georifia,  no — 8 ;  Maryland,  divided  [Jenifer  and  Carroll,  no]  " 

•  See  page  341.  ' 

•  The  words  "  Waa  then  taken  up  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SBS8I0N  OP  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  21,  1787  48» 

patting  through  iU  btnda,  wUl  force  »  direct  «port*tion  and  d«fMt 
thenuelvek  The»  are  eoUd  reMoM  tgf  Cong!  twing  exports.  1.'  U 
will  .  icourage  induatry,  aa  taxes  on  importa  diaeonrage  luxury. 
2 '  The  produce  of  differont  SUtee  is  aueh  as  to  prerent  unifomutj 
in  such  taxes.  Thero  are  indeed  but  a  few  artidea  that  could  be 
taxed  at  aU;  aa  Tobf  rice  4  Indigo,  and  a  tax  on  theee  alone  would 
be  partial  ft  unjust  8.»  The  taxing  of  exporto  would  engender 
incurable  jealouiies. 

MI  WiLUAJisoK.  Tho'  N.  C.  has  been  taxed  by  Virg?  by  a  duty 
on  12  000  Hha  of  her  Tobf  exported  thro'  Virg?  yet  he  would  nrrer 
agree  to  this  power.  Should  it  take  take  place,  it  would  distr<v  tb» 
last  hope  of  an  ad<vtion  of  the  plan. 

m  Govt  MoMUB.    These  local  considerations  ought  not  to  impeda 
the  general  inters*.    There  ia  great  weight  in  the  argument,  that 
the  exporting  Stotaa  wiU  tax  the  produce  of  their  uncommereial 
neighboun.   The  power  of  reguUting  the  trade  between  K  »  N. 
Jersey  will  never  pret«nt  the  former  from  taxing  the  Utter.    Nor 
wiU  such  a  tax  force  a  direct  exportation  from  N.  Jersey.    The  ad- 
yantagea  possessed  by  a  large  trading  City,  outweigh  the  disadvantage 
of  a  moderate  duty;  and  wiU  retain  the  trade  in  that  channel^  If 
no  tax  can  be  laid  on  exports,  an  embargo  cannot  be  laid  though  in 
time  of  war  such  a  meaaure  may  be  of  critical  importance.    T<*aeco, 
lumber  and  live-Btock  are  three  objects  belonging  to  different  States, 
of  which  great  advantage  might  be  made  by  a  power  to  tax  wports. 
To  theee  may  be  added  Ginseng  and  MasU  for  Ships  by  which  a  tax 
might  be  throw  a  on  other  nations.    The  idea  of  supplying  the  w  egt 
Indies  with  lumber  from  Nova  Scotia  is  one  of  the  many  foUies  of 
lord  ShefBeld's  pwnphlets.   The  Stote  of  the  Country  also  will  change. 
and  runder  duties  on  exports,  ss  skins,  beaver  *  otter  peculiar  raw 
materials,  politic  in  the  view  of  encouraging  American  Manufacturea. 
Ml  BtJiu*  waa  strenuously  opposed  to  a  power  over  exporU;  as 
unjust  and  alarming  to  the  Staple^tatea. 

W.  Lamodon  suggested  a  prohibition  on  the  Statea  from  taxing 
the  produce  of  other  States  exported  from  their  harbours. 

Ml  DiCKiNSOK.  The  power  of  taxing  exports  may  be  mconven- 
ient  at  present;  but  it  must  be  of  dangerous  consequence  to  prohibit 
it  with  respect  to  all  articles  and  for  ever.  He  thought  it  would  be 
better  to  except  particular  articles  from  the  power. 

M!  Shebman.  It  is  best  to  prohibit  the  National  legislature  in 
all  cases.    The  States  will  never  give  up  all  power  over  trade.    An 


•  The  fignrM  "  l,*;  "  2 

'«.vnilly  ■'  and  "  Thirdly. 


"  and  "  3  "  »re  changtd  in  the  tntntcript  to  "  Firrt," 


440      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

ennmeration  of  p«rtieal«r  artidw  would  b«  difBenlt  invtdioiM  and 
improper. 

M;  Mapoon  Am  we  anght  to  be  govcmed  by  natioiwl  and  pe^ 
manent  viewi,  it  ia  a  ■nffleieiit  argnment  for  giving  y*.  power  ovw 
exporu  that  a  tax,  tho'  it  may  not  be  expedient  at  pnaent,  may  be 
10  hereafter.  A  proper  regulation  of  exporta  may  A  probably  will  be 
neceaaary  hereafter,  and  for  the  aame  pnrpoaea  aa  the  regulation  of 
importa;  viz,  for  revenue— domeatic  manofactarea— and  procuring 
equitable  regulations  from  other  nationa.  An  Embargo  may  be  of 
absolute  neeeaaity,  and  can  alone  be  efTeetuated  by  the  Gea'  authority. 
The  regulation  of  trade  between  Sute  and  SUte  can  not  effect  more 
than  indirectly  to  hinder  a  Sute  from  taxing  ita  own  exports;  by 
authorising  ita  Citizens  to  carry  their  commoditiea  freely  into  a 
neighbouring  State  which  might  decline  taxing  exporU  in  order  to 
draw  into  ita  channel  the  trade  of  iu  nei^bours.  As  to  the  fear  <a 
disproportionate  burdens  on  the  more  exporting  Statea,  it  might  be 
remarked  that  it  was  agreed  on  all  hands  that  the  revenue  w*  prin- 
eipally  be  drawn  from  trade,  and  as  only  a  given  revenue  would  be 
needed,  it  waa  not  material  whether  all  should  be  drawn  wholly  from 
importa— or  half  from  those,  and  half  from  exporU.  The  imports 
and  exporU  must  be  pretty  nearly  equal  in  every  State— and  rela> 
tivdy  the  same  among  the  different  States. 

M^  EL8BW0BTH  did  not  conceive  an  embargo  by  the  Congreaa  in- 
terdicted by  this  section. 

M!  M°Henry  conceived  that  power  to  be  included  in  the  power 
of  war. 

Ml  WosoN.  Pennsylvania  exporta  the  produce  of  Maryl  N. 
Jersey,  Delaware  4  will  by  &  by  when  the  River  Delaware  ia  opened, 
export  for  N-  Yoit.  In  favoring  the  general  power  over  exporta 
therefore,  he  oppoaed  the  particular  interest  of  hia  State.  He  re- 
marked that  the  power  had  been  attacked  by  reasoning  which  oould 
only  have  held  good  in  caae  the  Qoii  Qov^  had  been  compMed,  in- 
atead  of  authorited,  to  lay  dutiea  on  exporta.  To  deny  thia  power  ia 
to  take  from  the  Common  Oov!  half  the  regulation  of  trade.  It  was 
his  opinion  that  a  power  over  exports  might  be  more  effectual  than 
that  over  imports  in  obtaining  beneficial  treaties  of  commerce 

Mr  Obrbt  was  strenuously  oppoaed  to  the  power  over  exports.  It 
might  be  made  use  of  to  compel  the  Statea  to  comply  with  the  will 
of  the  Gerf  Qovemment,  and  to  grant  it  any  new  powers  which 
might  be  demanded.  We  have  given  it  more  power  already  than  we 
know  how  will  be  exercised.  It  will  enable  the  Gen!  Govf  to  oppress 
the  Statea  aa  much  as  Ireland  ia  oppressed  by  Great  Britam. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAT,  AUOUST  21,  1787 


441 


M!  FmnmoKi  woold  b*  agf  a  tu  on  exporto  to  b«  Uid  imm«- 
dittdy ;  bat  wi»  for  girinf  •  powor  of  Ujriiif  tho  tax  whon  a  proper 
time  may  call  for  it.  Thii  would  entainly  b«  th«  eaae  when  America 
ibould  bceom*  a  nuurafaetoring  Coontry.  He  Ultutrated  hia  arfu- 
ment  by  the  dntiea  in  0.  Britain  on  wool  Ac. 

Col.  Haion.  If  he  were  for  redaeing  the  SUtea  to  mere  eorpora- 
tioM  aa  aeemed  to  be  the  tendency  of  aome  arguments,  he  ahould  be 
for  lubjeeting  their  exporta  aa  well  aa  importo  to  a  power  of  general 
taxation.  He  went  on  a  principle  often  adranced  4  in  which  he  con- 
curred, that "  a  majority  when  intereated  will  oppr^*  c  minority." 
Thia  maxim  bad  been  verifled  by  our  own  Lei^r.  ,       i  -{  Virginia] 


If  we  compare  the  SUtea  in  thia  point  of  view  t 
have  an  intereat  different  from  tiia  five  South 
one  bianeh  of  the  legialatore  36  rotaa  agtf  '/■ 
the  proportion  of  8  agf  5.    The  Southern   > 
gnxmd  for  their  auapiciona.    The  eaae  of  i  -  i 
with  that  of  importa.    The  latter  were  the 
The  former  Teiy  different.    Aa  to  Tobae- 


a      )rt'-o»r  .'  "itc 

'jteo;  ant?  h.v»a    r 

.1(1    a  f;.e  'V^i  ,  lU 

t.vJ  t  J.r.'OTe  ^OU'l 

li  w  '  1:0!     te  Htm 
f  thrr  ."'•lu'  rhe  S;.t  »: 
ui  *r  uil.o:     J'>  fi,'«t  it- 
andarecapable'ofraiaingitaaweUaaVirg?*     Th-     op  ;  •y  .it  iting 
that  article  had  been  demonatrated  by  the  expcnrntiu  oi  Vi's?  '  '< 

M'.  Cltiiib  remarked  that  every  State  mif^t  r'  ith  u(?ai  1 

to  its  particular  productions,  in  the  aame  mannwi  Soi:tN  .a 

StatM.  The  middle  Statca  may  apprehend  an  oppreaaion  of  their 
wheat  flour,  proviaiou  Ae.  and  with  m<we  reaaon,  aa  theae  articles 
were  expoaed  to  a  competition  in  foreign  marketo  not  incident  to 
Tob?  rice  Ac  They  may  apprehend  alao  omibinationa  agP  them  be- 
tween the  Eastern  A  Southern  SUtea  aa  much  aa  the  latter  can  appre- 
hend th«9n  between  the  Eaatem  A  middle.  He  moved  aa  a  qualifica- 
ti<m  of  the  power  of  taxing  ExporU  that  it  ahould  be  restrained  to 
regulationa  of  trade,  by  inawrting  after  the  word  *'  duty  '''  Sect  4 
art  VII  the  worda,  "  for  the  purpoae  of  revenue." 

On  *  Qucation  on  Id  Clymer'a  motion 

N.  F.  no.  Mai.  no.  O  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  DeL  ay.  M*.  no. 
V?  no.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.   Geo.  no.» 

MI  Madisok.  In  order  to  require  %  of  each  Honae  to  tax  exporU 
—as  a  leaser  evil  than  a  total  prohibition  moved  to  inaert  the  worda 
"  unless  by  consent  of  two  thirds  of  the  Legislature." 

W.  Wilson  21*  and  on  thia  question,  it  passed  in  the  Negative. 


'  The  word  "  the "  it  here  imerted  in  the  trmnicript.  ,       ,      _  ,       „ 

■In  the  tranicript  the  vote  kmU:  "Kew  JeMrr,  PennwlTMiU,  '>•''•[•. 

aye_3.     New    Hsmp^ire,    M»M»chiMett^    ConnwAlcut,    MaryUnd,    VirginI*, 

North  Carolina,  Son!^  Caroliaa.  Qwrgia,  no— «" 


442      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

N.  H.  agr.    Mai.  ajr.    C3  no.    N.  J.  a/.    Pf  ^.    Del  ay.    Iff  nix 

y*  no  [Col.  Mawn,  M!  Bandolph,  JA'-  Blair  no.  GenJ  Waahington  k 
J.  M.  ay.]  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  na  Geo.  na^ 

*  Question  on  Sect:  4.  art  VII.  aafaraato"iu>tazah;be  laid 
on  export»— It  paaed  in  the  afBrmative. 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  ay.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  na  Ml  ay. 
V*  ay  (Gen!  W.  ft  J.  M.  no)  N.  C.  ay.  8.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ay.* 

Ml  L.  Mabtin,  proposed  to  vary  the  Sect:  4.  art  VII.  ao  aa  to 
allow  a  pndiibition  or  tax  on  the  importation  of  slaTea.  1.*  as  five 
slaves  are  to  be  counted  as  3  free  men  in  the  apportionment  of  Rep- 
resentatives;  aach  a  elaiue  wi  leave  an  encouragement  to  thia  trafis. 
2.*  alaves  weakened  one  part  of  the  Union  which  the  other  parts  were 
bound  to  protect:  the  privilege  of  importing  them  was  therefore 
unreasonable.  3.*  it  waa  inconaistent  with  the  principles  of  the  revo- 
lution and  dishonorable  to  the  American  character  to  have  such  a 
feature  in  the  Constitution. 

W-  RuTUDGE  did  not  see  how  the  importation  of  slaves  could  be 
encouraged  by  this  Section.  He  waa  not  apprehensive  of  insnrreo- 
tions  and  would  readily  exempt  the  other  States  from  the  obligation 
to  protect  the  Southern  against  them. —  Religion  &  humanity  had 
nothing  to  do  with  this  question.  Interest  alone  is  the  governing 
principle  with  nations.  The  true  question  at  present  is  whether  the 
South?  States  shall  or  shall  not  be  parties  to  the  Uni<m.  If  the 
Northern  States  consult  their  interest,  they  will  not  oppose  the  in- 
crease  of  Slaves  which  will  increase  the  conunodities  of  which  they 
will  become  the  carriers. 

W.  Elseworth  was  for  leaving  the  clause  as  it  standa.  let  eveiy 
State  import  what  it  pleases.  The  morality  or  wisdom  of  slavery  are 
considerations  belonging  to  the  Statea  themselves.  What  enridies  a 
part  enriches  the  whole,  and  the  States  are  the  best  judges  of  their 
particular  interest.  The  old  confederation  had  not  meddled  with 
this  point,  and  he  did  not  see  any  greater  necessity  for  bringing  it 
within  the  policy  of  the  new  one : 


■  In  the  tranicript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Massaehnsstta,  New 
Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  aye — 6;  Connecticut,  Maryland,  Virsinia  [Col- 
Mason,  Mr.  Randolph,  Mr.  Blair,  no;  General  WashiDgt<ni,  Mr.  MadisMi,  a;*] 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  CSeorgia,  no — «." 

■  The  words  "  On  the  "  are  here  insertc-d  in  the  transcript 

■  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Masaaehnsetta,  Coimectient,  Maryland, 
Virginia  [G<-nl.  Washington  and  Mr.  Madison,  no]  North  Carolina,  Sooth  Caro- 
lina, Georgia,  aye— 7;  New  Hampshire,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delawais^ 
no— ♦." 

*  The  figure  "  I "  is  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  In  the  first  ptaee." 

'  The  figure  "  2  "  Is  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  In  the  second  place." 

*  The  figure  "  3  "  is  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  And  in  the  third  plassi.'' 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  22,  1787        448 

Mt  PiNKNET.  South  Carolina  can  never  receive  the  plan  if  it 
prohibits  the  slave  trade.  In  every  proposed  extension  of  the  powers 
of  the  Ckmgreas,  that  State  has  expressly  &  watchfully  excepted  that  of 
meddling  with  the  importation  of  negroes.  If  the  States  be  all  left 
at  liberty  on  this  subject,  S.  Carolina  may  perhaps  by  degrees  do  of 
herself  what  is  wished,  as  Virginia  ft  Maryland  have  already  ^  done. 

Adjourned 


WZDNBDAT  AuOtnST  22.     IK  CONVENTION. 

Art  VII  sect  4*-  *  resumed.  M?  Shhtman  was  for  leaving  the 
dauKe  as  it  stands.  He  disapproved  of  the  slave  trade;  yet  as  the 
States  were  now  possessed  of  the  right  to  hnport  slaves,  as  the  public 
good  did  not  require  it  to  be  taken  from  them,  &  as  it  was  expedient  to 
have  as  few  objections  as  possible  to  the  proposed  scheme  of  (Jovem- 
ment,  he  thought  it  best  to  leave  the  mstter  as  we  find  it.  He 
observed  that  the  abolition  of  Slavery  seemed  to  be  going  on  in  the 
U.  S.  &  that  the  good  sense  of  the  several  States  would  probably 
by  degrees  compleat  it  He  urged  on  the  Convention  the  necessity  of 
despatching  its  business. 

Col.  Mason.  This  infernal  traflc  originated  in  the  avarice  of 
British  Merchants.  The  British  Gov!  constantly  checked  the  at- 
tempts of  Virginia  to  put  a  stop  to  it  The  present  question  con- 
cerns not  the  importing  States  alone  but  the  whole  Union.  The  evil  of 
having  slaves  was  experienced  during  the  late  war.  Had  slaves 
been  treated  as  they  might  have  been  by  the  Enemy,  they  would  have 
proved  dangerous  instruments  in  their  hands.  But  their  folly  dealt 
by  the  slaves,  as  it  did  by  the  Tories.  He  mentioned  the  dangerous 
insurrections  of  the  slaves  in  Greece  and  Sicily ;  and  the  instmcti<His 
Kiven  by  Cromwell  to  the  Commissionera  sent  to  Virginia,  to  arm 
the  servants  ft  slaves,  in  case  other  means  of  obtaining  its  submission 
should  fail.  Maryland  ft  Virginia  he  said  had  already  prohibited 
the  importatioix  of  slaves  expressly.  N.  Carolina  had  done  the  sams 
in  substance.  All  this  would  be  in  vain  if  S.  Carolina  ft  Georgia 
be  at  liberty  to  import.  The  Western  people  are  already  calling  out 
for  slaves  for  their  new  lands,  and  will  fill  that  Country  with  slaves 
if  they  can  be  got  thro'  S.  Carolina  ft  Georgia.    Slavery  discourages 


"The   word*  "have   already"  are  tranipoted   in    the  traiucript   to   read 
"already  have." 
'See  page  341. 
•  The  word  "  wai "  is  here  iBserted  in  the  tranicript. 


4U      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

arts  &  manofactares.  The  poor  deapiae  labor  when  performed  by 
alaves.  They  prevent  the  immigration  of  Whitee,  who  really  enrich 
&  strengthen  a  Country.  They  produce  the  moat  pernicious  effect  on 
manners.  Every  master  of  slaves  is  bom  a  petty  tyrant.  They 
bring  the  judgment  of  heaven  on  a  Country.  As  nations  can  not 
be  rewarded  or  punished  in  the  next  world  they  must  be  in  this. 
By  an  inevitable  chain  of  causes  &  effects  providence  punishes 
national  sins,  by  national  calamities.  He  lamented  that  some  of  our 
Eastern  brethren  had  from  a  lust  of  gain  embarked  in  this  nefarious 
trafQc.  As  to  the  States  being  in  possession  of  the  Bight  to  import, 
this  was  the  case  with  many  other  rights,  now  to  be  properly  given 
xxp.  He  held  it  essential  in  every  point  of  view  that  the  Qeoi  Qoy*. 
should  have  power  to  prevent  the  increase  of  slavery. 

W-  Elsworth.  As  he  had  never  owned  a  slave  could  not  judge 
of  the  effects  of  slavery  on  character:  He  said  however  that  if  it  was 
to  be  considered  in  a  moral  light  we  ought  to  go  farther  and  free 
those  already  in  the  Country. — As  slaves  also  multiply  so  fast  in 
Virginia  &  4  Maryland  that  it  is  cheaper  to  raise  than  import  thun, 
whilst  in  the  sickly  rice  swamps  foreign  supplies  are  necessary,  if 
we  go  no  farther  than  is  urged,  we  shall  be  unjust  towards  S.  Caro- 
lina &  Georgia.  Let  us  not  intermeddle.  As  population  increases 
poor  laborers  will  be  so  plenty  aa  to  render  slaves  useless.  Slavery 
in  time  will  not  be  a  speck  in  our  Country.  Provisi(m  ia  already 
made  in  Connecticut  for  abolishing  it.  And  the  abolition  has  already 
taken  place  in  Massachussets.  Aa  to  the  danger  of  insurrections  from 
foreign  influence,  that  will  become  a  motive  to  kind  treatment  of  the 
slaves. 

M'.  PiNKNZT.  If  slavery  be  wrong,  it  is  justified  by  the  example 
of  all  the  worid.  He  cited  the  case  of  Greece  Rome  &  other  abtient 
States ;  the  sanction  given  by  France  England,  Holland  &  other  mod- 
em States.  In  all  ages  one  half  of  mankind  have  been  slaves.  If 
the  S.  States  were  let  alone  they  will  probaUy  of  themselves  stop 
importations.  He  w<!  himself  as  a  Citizen  of  S.  Carolina  vote  for  it. 
An  attempt  to  take  away  the  right  as  proposed  will  produce  serious 
objections  to  the  Constitution  which  he  wished  to  see  adopted. 

General  Pinkney  de«Jared  it  to  be  his  firm  opinion  that  if  him- 
self &  all  his  colleagues  were  to  sign  the  Constitution  &  use  their 
personal  influence,  it  would  be  of  no  avail  towards  obtaining  the 
assent  of  their  Constituents.  S.  Carolina  &  (Jeorgia  cannot  do  without 
slaves.  As  to  Virginia  she  will  gain  by  stopping  the  importations. 
Her  slaves  will  rise  in  value,  &  she  has  more  than  she  wants.  It 
would  be  unequal  to  require  S.  C.  &  Georgia  to  confederate  on  such 


:?&K^a: 


SMSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  22,  1787        445 


m 


aneqiutl  tenia.  He  aaid  the  Royal  aaaent  before  the  Revolution  had 
never  been  refwed  to  S.  Carolina  as  to  Virginia.  He  contended 
that  the  importation  of  slaves  would  be  for  the  interest  of  Uie  whole 
Union.  The  more  riaves,  the  more  produce  to  employ  the  carrying 
trade ;  The  more  consoraption  also,  and  the  more  of  this,  the  more  of 
revenue  for  the  common  treasury.  He  admitted  it  to  be  reasonable 
that  slaves  should  be  dutied  like  other  imports,  but  should  consider 
a  rejection  of  the  clause  as  an  exclusion  of  S.  Carol?  from  the  Union. 

if.  Baldwin  had  concaved  national  objects  alone  to  be  before 
the  Convention,  not  sueh  sa  like  the  present  wesv  of  a  local  nature. 
Georgia  was  decided  on  this  point.  That  State  has  always  hitherto 
supposed  a  Qtai  Otmenai  to  be  the  pursuit  of  the  central  States 
who  wished  to  have  a  vortex  for  every  thing — ^that  her  distance 
would  preclude  her  from  equal  advantage — &  that  she  could  not 
prudently  purchase  it  by  yielding  national  powers.  From  this  it 
miifht  be  understood  in  what  light  she  would  view  an  attempt  to 
abridge  one  of  her  favorite  prerogatives.  If  left  to  herself,  she  may 
probably  put  a  stop  to  the  evil.  As  one  ground  for  this  conjecture, 
he  took  notice  of  the  r/M:t  of  which  he  said  was  a  respectable 

class  of  people,  who  carried  their  ethics  beyond  the  mere  equality 
of  men,  extending  their  humanity  to  the  claims  of  the  whole  animal 
creation. 

M^  WiLBOM  observed  that  if  S.  C.  ft  Georgia  were  themselves  dis- 
posed to  get  rid  of  the  importation  of  slaves  in  a  short  time  as  had 
been  suggested,  they  would  never  refuse  to  Unite  because  the  im- 
portation might  he  prohilated.  As  the  Section  now  stauds  all  articles 
imported  are  to  be  taxed.  Slaves  alone  are  exempt.  This  is  in  fact 
a  bounty  on  that  article. 

Ml  Gerrt  thought  we  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  conduct  of  the 
States  as  to  Slaves,  but  ought  to  be  careful  not  to  give  any  sanction 
to  it. 

Mt  Dickenson  considered  it  as  inadmissible  on  every  principle 
of  honor  &  safety  that  the  importation  of  slaves  should  be  authorised 
to  the  States  by  the  Constitution.  The  true  question  was  whether 
the  national  happiness  would  be  promoted  or  impeded  by  the  impor- 
tation, and  this  question  ought  to  be  left  to  the  National  Gov^  not  to 
the  States  particularly  interested.  If  Eng^  &  France  permit  slavery, 
slaves  are  at  the  sune  time  excluded  fnmi  both  those  Kingdoms. 
Greece  and  Rome  were  made  unhappy  by  their  slaves.  He  could  not 
believe  that  the  South?  States  would  refuse  to  confederate  on  the 
acoonnt  apprehended;  especially  as  the  power  was  not  likely  to  be 
immediately  exercised  by  the  Gen!  Government. 


.m;^ssi^^!^p^^3giji^^f. 


■  r^'-'-^i-'--!. 


446      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787.^ 

M'  Williamson  stated  the  law  of  N.  Carolina  on  the  tubject, 
to  wit  that  it  did  not  directly  prohibit  the  importation  of  aave.. 
It  imposed  a  duty  of  £5.  on  each  slave  imported  from  Africa.  £10  on 
LhTT  elsewhere.  &  £50  on  each  from  a  SUte  hcen^ng  ma^^ 
mission  He  thought  the  S.  States  could  not  be  members  of  tne 
Sn  if  the  clause  sh-  be  rejected,  and  that  it  w^  -o-^  to  f^^ 
any  thing  down,  not  absolutely  necessarj-,  and  which  any  SUte  must 

^'T'^o  thought  the  subject  should  be  considered  in  a  poHticjd 
light  only.  If  two  States  will  not  agree  to  the  Co^^t^t'"'^  "  "^^ 
on  one  side,  he  could  affirm  with  e.,ual  ^lief  °- ^^^  °J^ J'^^^f^  «^ 
&  eaual  opposition  would  be  experienced  from  the  other  States.  He 
tSL  on  the  exemption  of  slaves  from  duty  whilrt  every  other 
SiTor^  was  subjected  to  it,  as  an  -<l-^ity  ^hat  could  not  fad  to 
rt4e  the  commercial  sagacity  of  the  North.  &  middle  States. 

W.  Lanodon  was  strenuous  for  giving  the  POwer  to  the  Qea 
GovV  He  e-.  not  with  a  good  conscience  leave  it  with  the  Stat«  who 
could  then  go  on  with  the  traffic,  without  "^"^^  ^^^^'^^l^""" 
opinions  here  given  that  they  will  themselves  cease  to  ™P°^  davM. 

Gen>  PiNKNET  thought  him«lf  bound  to  declare  candidly  that  he 
did  not  think  S.  Carolina  would  stop  her  !™Pf  *t'°°«  °* '^^o^ 
any  short  time,  but  only  stop  them  occasionaUy  as  «be  °ow  do^^ 
He  moved  to  commit  «.e  cl.u«.  that  slaves  might  be  made  ha^e^ 
an  equal  tax  with  other  imports  which  he  he  thought  right  &  w^  V.  re- 
move one  difficulty  that  bad  been  started.  ,^  ,  xr  p  q  o  ft 
M!  BuTLiDOE.  If  the  Co'.vention  thmks  that  N  C.  S.  t.  » 
Georgia  will  ever  agree  to  the  plan,  unless  their  "«»»»*«  ^J^^ 
Tve^  be  untouched,  the  expectation  is  vain.  The  peop  e  of  th«^ 
States  wUl  never  be  such  fools  as  to  give  up  so  important  an  mtewrt. 
He^as  strenuous  ag!'  striking  out  the  Section,  and  seconded  the 
motion  of  Gen'  Pinkney  for  a  commitment. 

jp  Gov.  Morris  wished  the  whole  subject  to  be  committed  m- 
eluding  the  clauses  relating  to  taxes  on  exports  &  to  «  ^avi^^™. 
act.     These  things  may  form  a  bargain  among  the  Northern  ft 

'°1n  Bt^^'declared  that  he  never  would  agree  to  the  power  of 

"tif  Z^^  said  it  was  better  to  let  the  S.  States  import^es 
than  to  part  with  them,  if  they  made  that  a  sine  qua  non_  ^e  ^^ 
opposed  to  a  tax  on  slaves  imported  as  making  *»»«  m.^^  w«^ 
because  it  implied  they  were  property.  He  f;l?°-jf^"*  ^^^^i 
power  of  prohibiting  the  importation  should  be  given  to  the  uen 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  22,  1787         447 

Government  that  it  would  be  exercised.    He  thoui^t  it  would  be  it* 
duty  to  exerciae  the  power. 

Mr  Rkad  was  for  the  commitment  provided  the  daoae  eonoeming 
taxes  on  exports  should  also  be  committed. 

M'.  SHimuAM  observed  that  that  elaose  had  been  agreed  to  h 
therefore  conld  not  *  committed. 

Ml  Randolph  was  for  committing  in  order  that  some  middle 
(fTound  might,  if  possible,  be  found.  He  could  never  agree  to  the 
clause  as  it  stands.  He  w*  sooner  rok  the  constitution.  He  dwelt 
on  the  dilemma  to  which  the  Convention  was  exposed.  By  agreeing 
to  the  clause,  it  would  revolt  the  Quakers,  the  Methodists,  and  many 
others  in  the  States  having  no  slaves.  On  the  other  hand,  two  States 
might  be  lost  to  the  Union.  Let  us  then,  he  said,  try  the  chance  of 
a  pommitment. 

On  the  question  for  eommitting  the  remaining  part  of  Sect.  4  &  5.* 
of  art:  7.  N.  H.  no.  Mas.  abs!  Coni  ay  N.  J.  ay  P^  no.  Del.  no 
Mary^  ay.  Vr  ay.  N.  C.  ay  S.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ay.» 

M^  PiNKNKT  &  Mt  Lanodon  moved  to  commit  Sect  6.*  as  to  *  navi- 
gation act  by  two  thirds  of  each  House 

in  QoEHAM  did  not  see  the  propriety  of  it.  Is  it  meant  to  require 
a  greater  proportion  of  votes  t  He  desired  it  to  be  remembered  that 
the  Eastern  States  had  no  motive  to  Union  but  a  commercial 
one.  They  were  able  to  protect  themselves.  They  were  not 
afraid  of  external  danger,  and  did  not  need  the  aid  of  the  South? 
States. 

M!  WitJSON  wished  for  a  commitment  in  order  to  reduce  the  pro- 
portion of  votes  required. 

M'  EiiSWORTH  was  for  taking  the  plan  as  it  is.  This  widening  of 
opinions  has »  a  threatening  aspect.  If  we  do  not  agree  on  this  middle 
&  moderate  ground  he  was  afraid  we  should  lose  two  States,  with 
such  others  as  may  be  disposed  to  stand  aloof,  should  fly  into  a  variety 
of  shapes  &  directions,  and  most  probably  into  several  confederations 
and  not  without  bloodshed. 

On  •  Question  for  committing  6  Sect,  as  to  ♦  navigation  act  to  a 


•  The  word  "  be  "  ii  here  inserted  to  the  transcript. 

■'irthV'*traBscript  the  vote  resds:  "ConnecUcut.  New  Jersey,  Marylwid. 
Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolinn,  Geoi^a.  aye-7;  New  Hampshire, 
Pennsvlvania,  Delaware,  no — 3;  Massachusetts,  absent. 

•  The  word  "  a  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript.        „  ^     „ 
'  The  word  "  had  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for     has. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  trsnscnpt. 


448      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

member  from  each  Stote— N.  H.  ay.  Mar  ay.  (2  no.  N.  J.  no. 
Pt  ay.  Dd.  ay.  MH  ay.  Vf  ay.  N.  C.  ay.  S.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ay.» 

The  Committee  appointed  were  BT.  Langdon,  King,  Johnaon, 
Livingston,  Clymer,  Dickemmn,  L.  Martin,  Madiwn,  William«)n,  C. 
C.  Pinkney,  &  Baldwin. 

To  this  committee  were  referred  aUo  the  two  cUtuea  abovemen- 
tioned,  of  the  4  ft  5.  Sect:  of  Art.  7. 

MI  BuTUOOi,  frran  the  Committee  to  whom  were  referred  on  the 
18  &  20*^  instant  the  propontiois  of  W.  MadiMtn  &  liC  Pinkney,  made 
the  Report  following.— 

[Here  insert  the  Report  from  the  Journal  of  the  Convention  of  this 

date.] ' 

["The  committee  report,  that  in  their  opinion  the  foUowing  addi- 
tions should  be  made  to  the  report  now  before  the  convention 

°^*At  the  end  of  the  first  clause  of  the  first  section  of  the  seventii 
article  add,  'for  payment  of  the  debts  and  necessary  expenses  of  the 
Unite<^  States;  provided  that  no  law  for  raising  any  branch  of 
reveni  ,  except  what  may  be  specially  appropriated  for  the  payment 
of  int  -est  on  debts  or  loans,  shall  continue  in  force  for  more  than 


'    m  tito  end  of  the  second  clause,  second  section,  seventh  aiticle, 
I  with  Indians,  within  the  limits  of  any  state,  not  subject 

ws  thereof.'  ,  .  ,       ^.  *». 

the  end  of  the  sixteenth  clause  of  the  second  section,  seventh 

•tick  add,  'and  to  provide,  as  may  become  neceesary,  from  time  to 

me  for  the  well  managing  and  securing  the  common  property  and 

genera     iteresti  and  welfare  of  the  United  States  in  such  mamier 

as  si       aot  in  -rfere  with  the  governments  of  individual  states,  )n 

matt       which     ■spect  only  their  internal  police,  or  for  which  their 

individ.  al  au*tin   itiee'  may  be  cmnpetent'  .   „  v 

"At  rk'    Bd  of  the  first  section,  tenth  article,  add,    he  shaU  be 

of  the  8).     'f  ihirty  five  years,  and  a  citizen  of  the  United  States,  and 

shall  h£Vf  been  an  inhabitant  thereof  for  twenty  one  years. 

"After  the  second  section  of  the  tenth  articl«i,  insert  the  foUowing 

as  a  third  section:  .,  ,  .  ., 

"  'The  President  of  the  United  States  shall  have  a  pn'^r  ooun^U, 
which  shall  consist  of  the  president  of  the  senate,  the  speaker  of 
the  house  of  representatives,  the  chief  justice  of  the  supreme  court, 
and  the  principal  officer  in  the  respective  departments  of  mwP' 
affairs,  domestic  affairs,  war,  marine,  and  finance,  as  such  depart- 
ments of  office  shall  from  time  to  time  be  established,  whose  duly  it 


■In  the  tianseript  the  Tote  re.di:  '* New  Hampshire  MaBMchiMett».P<-™- 
•TlTtiiia,  DelawtT..  ilmrylMid.  VirginU,  North  Crohn*.  South  C»roIlB«, 
Oeorgift,  aye — 9 ;  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  no— 8." 

>  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

"  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  authorities  "  in  the  singular. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  22,  1787        449 


ghall  be  to  advise  him  in  matten  respecting  the  ezeention  of  hit 
office,  which  he  ihall  think  proper  to  Ujr  before  them:  bat  their 
advice  shall  not  conclnde  him,  nor  affect  hit  responaibilitjr  for  the 
nieasurea  which  he  shall  adopt' 

"At  the  end  of  the  second  section  of  the  eleventh  article,  add, 
the  jadgM  of  the  snpreme  eoart  shall  be  triable  hy  the  senate,  on 
impeachment  by  the  house  of  repreaentatives.' 

"Between  the  fourth  and  fifth  lines  of  the  third  section  of  the 
eleventh  article,  after  the  word  'cwitroverBiee,'  insert  'between  the 
United  States  and  an  individual  sUte,  or  the  United  States  and  an 
individual  person.'  "]  *■ 

A  motion  to  rescind  the  order  of  the  House  respecting  the  honri 
of  meeting  &  adjourning,  was  negatived : 

Mass:  P?  Del.  Mar* ay* 

N.H,  Con:  N.J.  V?  N.C.  8.  C.  Geo.  no» 

M!  Gkbbt  ft  Mt  MfHKNST  moved  to  insert  after  the  2fl  sect* 
Art:  7,  the  Clause  following,  to  wit,  "The  Legislature  shall  paaa 
no  bill  of  attainder  nor  any  ex  poat  facto  law."  • 

M!  Gerbt  urged  the  necessity  of  this  prohibition,  which  he  said 
was  greater  in  the  National  than  the  State  Legislature,  because  the 
number  of  members  in  the  former  being  fewer  •  were  on  that  account 
the  more  to  be  feared. 

M'.  Govt  Morris  thought  the  precaution  as  to  ex  poet  facto  laws 
unnecessary;  but  essential  as  to  bills  of  attainder 

Ml  Elseworth  contended  that  there  was  no  lawyer,  no  civflian 
who  would  not  say  that  ex  post  facto  laws  were  void  of  themselves. 
It  can  not  then  be  necessary  to  prohibit  them. 

M^  Wilson  was  against  inserting  any  tJiing  in  the  Constitution 
as  to  ex  post  facto  laws.  It  will  bring  reflexions  on  the  Constitution — 
and  proclaim  that  we  are  ignorant  of  Lhe  first  principles  of  Legis- 
lation, or  are  constituting  a  Government  which  •  will  be  so. 

The  question  being  divided,  The  first  part  of  the  motion  relating 
to  bills  of  attainder  was  agreed  to  nem.  contradicente. 

On  the  second  part  relating  to  ex  post  facto  laws — 

MT  Cakbol  remarked  that  experience  overruled  all  other  ealcula- 

•  The  prcseediBM  on  iki»  motkm  invoiviiig  the  two  qotstiona  oo  "  atUiB<U>n 
*  ex  poet  faeto  Uwe,"  are  not  eo  fully  lUted  in  the  Printed  Journal. 

■  Joutital,  AH*  ewl  FrwtaedHmtt  of  the  Cimcftitm  .  .  ie*»c*  format  the 
r<,n*titutio%,  of  the  Vmted  Biatet  (1819),  p.  277. 

•  The  Bgnr*  "  4  "  i«  here  inaerted  in  the  tranaeript. 

•  'n»c  figure  "  7  "  la  her*  ivauxted  in  the  tnuuKript. 

•  The  word  "of"  in  here  Inaerted  in  the  tranaeript. 

'  The  word  "  th:T  "  ia  here  Inaerted  in  the  tranaer^t. 

•The  word  "that"  i»  aubatitutad  ia  the  tnuHKript  for  "which." 


460      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

tiou.  It  had  proved  that  in  whatever  light  they  might  b«  viewed 
by  civilian*  or  others,  the  State  Legialaturea  had  paaeed  them,  and 
they  had  taken  effect 

M'.  WiutON.  if  theae  prohibition*  in  the  State  Constitution*  have 
no  effect,  it  will  be  tueleas  to  insert  them  in  thi*  Constitution.  Be- 
sides, both  sides  will  agree  to  the  principle,  A  *  will  differ  as  to  its 
application. 

MI  WnxiAMSON.  Such  a  prohibitory  clause  is  in  the  Constitu- 
tion of  N.  Carolina,  and  the  it  has  been  violated,  it  has  done 
good  there  &  may  do  good  here,  because  the  Judges  can  take  hold 
of  it. 

Doc-  Johnson  thought  the  clause  unnecessary,  and  implying  an 
improper  suspicion  of  the  National  Legislature. 

IT.  RuTUDOE  was  in  favor  of  the  clause. 

On  the  question  for  inserting  the  prohibition  of  ex  post  facto 
laws. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  ConJ  no.  N.  J,  no.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  Ml  sjr. 
Virg*  ay  N.  C.  divl  8.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ay.' 

The  report  of  the  committee  of  5.  made  by  Mt  Rutlidge,  was  taken 
up  &  then  postponed  that  each  member  might  furnish  himself  with 
a  copy. 

The  Report  of  the  Comittee  of  Eleven  delivered  in  &  entered  on 
the  Journal  of  the  21!'  inst.  was  then  taken  up.  and  the  first  clause 
containing  the  words  "  The  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  shall  kme  power 
to  fulfil  the  engagements  which  have  been  entered  into  by  Congress  " 
being  under  consideration, 

M!  Elbwobth  argued  that  they  were  unnecessary.  The  U.  S. 
heretofore  entered  into  Engagements  by  Cong!  who  were  their  agent*. 
They  will  hereafter  be  bound  to  fulfil  them  by  their  new  agents. 

M^  Randolph  thought  such  a  provision  necessary:  for  though 
the  U.  States  will  be  bound,  the  new  Oov.'  will  have  no  authority  in 
the  case  unless  it  be  given  to  them. 

Mt  Madison  thought  it  necessary  to  give  the  authority  in  order 
to  prevent  misconstruction.  He  mentioned  the  attempts  made  by 
the  Debtors  to  British  subjects  to  shew  that  contracts  under  the  old 
Government,  were  dissolved  by  the  Revolution  which  destroyed  the 
political  identity  of  the  Society. 

M-  Oerrt  thought  it  essential  that  some  explicit  provision  should 

■  The  word  "  but "  U  lubaUtutcd  in  the  tnuueript  for  "  t." 
'  In  the  trantcript  the  vote  readi:  "  New  Hampihire,  Masiachusetti,  Dela- 
ware, Maryland,  Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  ave — 7;  Connecticut,  Vfew 
Jeraey,  Pennsylvania,  no — 3;  North  Carolina,  divided." 


-  ■■  IISW>,.iiiT-- 


SESSION  OF  THUB8DAT,  AUGUST  23,  1787 


iSl 


b«  made  on  this  subject,  lo  thM  no  pretwt  might  remtin  for  fottinc 
rid  of  the  public  engigementi. 

Mt  Govt  Moriiis  moved  by  way  of  amraidraent  to  sabatitata" 
"The  Legialature  sktUl  diaeharge  the  debta  &  fulfil  the  e'  jaenta, 
uf  the  U.  Statea." 

It  waa  moved  to  vaty  the  amendment  by  striking  out  :harge 

the   debta "   ft   to   insert   "  liquidate   the   elaimo,"    which   being 
negatived, 

The  amendment  moved  by  MI  Gov?  Mnrria  waa  agreed  to  all  the 
States  being  in  the  affirmative. 

It  waa  moved  A  2'f'  to  strike  the  following  words  out  of  the  2i 
clause  of  the  report  "and  the  authority  of  training  the  Militia 
according  to  the  diacipline  prescribed  by  the  U.  S."  Before  a  ques- 
tion waa  taken 

The  House  adjourned 


IW  CONVZMTION    THtnBDAT  Auo:  23.  1787* 

The  Report  of  the  Committee  of  Eleven  made  Aug:  21.'  bwng 
taken  up,  and  the  following  clause  being  under  consideration  to  wit 
"  To  make  laws  for  organizing,  arming  A  disciplining  the  Militia, 
and  for  governing  such  part*  of  them  aa  may  be  employed  in  the 
service  of  the  U.  S.  reserving  to  the  Statea  respectively,  the  appoint- 
ment of  the  ofBcera,  and  authority  of  training  the  militia  according 
to  the  discipline  prescribed — " 

Mr  Shsbhan  moved  to  strike  out  the  laat  member —  "and  authority 
of  training  &c.  He  thought  it  unnecessary.  The  Statea  will  have 
this  authority  of  course  if  not  given  up. 

W.  Elswobth  doubted  the  propriety  of  atriking  out  the  sentence. 
The  reason  assigned  appliea  aa  wdl  to  the  other  reservation  of  the 
appointment  to  offices.  He  remarked  at  the  same  time  that  the  term 
disoipline  was  of  vast  extent  and  might  be  so  expounded  as  to  in- 
clude all  power  on  the  subject. 

Mr  Kino,  by  way  of  explanation,  said  that  by  organiting,  the 
Committee  meant,  proportioning  the  offlcera  ft  men — by  arming, 
specifying  the  kind  size  ft  caliber  of  arms— ft  by  dUcipiining  pre- 
scribing the  manual  exercise  evolutions  &c. 

<  The  year  '■  1787  "  it  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  word«  "  the  twenty-flrtt  of  Aiiguit "  are  subititnted  in  the  ttanicript 
fur  "Aug:  21." 

'  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  part "  In  the  plural. 


452      DEBATES  IN  TUE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


M<  Sbxbman  withdrew  his  mtHion 

Ml  QiMT.  Thii  power  in  the  U.  8.  aa  expiaiotd  u  nuklofr  the 
8Ut«s  driU-Mrgeaoti.  He  bad  aa  lief  let  the  CiUzena  of  Maaaachite^ta 
be  diaarmed,  u  to  take  the  command  from  the  tiutea,  and  anb^  <>t 
them  to  the  Oea'  Legialatare.  It  would  be  regarded  aa  a  aystem  >f 
Deapotiam. 

W  Madison  obaerved  that  "arming"  aa  explained  did  wjt  did  not 
extend  to  famiahing  amw;  nor  the  term  "dlaeiplining"  to  panaltiaa 
A  Coarta  Martial  for  enforcing  them. 

W  Kino  added,  to  hii  farmer  explanation  that  arming  meant  not 
only  to  provide  for  aniformity  of  arma,  but  included '  authority  to 
regulate  the  modea  of  fumiahing,  either  by  the  Militia  themaelvea,  the 
Itata  Oovemmenta,  or  the  National  Treaaary:  that  lowt  for  diaei- 
plining,  mnat  involve  penaltiea  and  every  thing  necessary  for  enforc- 
ing penalties. 

M'.  Datton  moved  to  postpone  the  paragraph,  in  order  to  take 
np  the  following  proposition 

"  To  estaUish  an  uniform  ft  general  system  of  discipline  for 
Um  MMr^ia  of  these  States,  and  to  make  laws  for  organizing,  arming, 
disciplifMMf  ft  governing  $uch  part  of  them  aa  may  be  embayed  in 
the  iervice  of  tht  D.  S.,  reaerving  to  the  SUt«s  respectively  the  ap- 
pointment ^  the  oAcers,  and  ^1  authority  over  the  Militia  not 
herein  tP^%n  to  the  General  Governme»<" 

On  the  question  to  poatp^aie  in  favor  of  tbw  propoaitimi:  it 
paned  ^n  the  Negative 

N.  H.  no.  Mas  no.  Ct  no.  N.  /  ay.  P.  no.  Del.  no.  Maryf 
ay.    V?  no.    N.  C.  no    i  C.  no.    dm.  ay." 

Mr  Elswowh  &  M'.  German  oMved  to  postpone  the  8*  clause 
in  favor  of  the  following  "To  establkh  m  uniformity  of  arms,  ex»- 
cise  ft  organization  for  th*  Militia,  and  to  provide  for  tke  Government 
of  them  when  called  into  the  aervice  of  th.  ''  fttatee'  The  object  of 
this  proposition  was  to  refer  the  t^»n  for  the  Militia  to  the  Qtaiteni 
GovJ  but'  leave  the  execution  of  it  to  the  Statp  Gov«^ 

M'.  Lanodom  said  He  could  not  undersUnd  the  jealousy  expraased 
by  some  Gentleman.*  The  General  ft  State  Oov^  were  not  enMtase 
to  each  other,  but  diCerent  institutions  for  the  good  of  the  pec^ 
of  America.    As  one  of  the  people  he  could  .say.  the  Nattaari  QiM 


'Tho  word    "tie"  i*  here  inmrtM  in  the  tran»rTy>t 

•  In  the  tranwript  th»  Tot«-  ntit  '  New  .lerney,  Maryl«*<  Oeorpa.  SW -Ji 
Bf0  H»n^irr.  Mtgsachuaett*,  CoBuecticut.  Penngylvaala  IM*w##«,  Virfmt, 
Winf^  (»*oiiiM,  South  Carolina,  no—*." 

'  Tli#   *frrd  "  to  "  ig  here  insi  rted  ia  the  tranaeri^. 

•  Tht  *<iti  ■•  fwnlaman  "  i*  met  m  «i*  finnl  in  l*e  tranaerlpt. 


SESSION  OP  THUR8DAT,  AUGUST  28,  1787  468 


u  mine,  the  SUte  Got?  ia  mine.  In  tPMirfeninf  power  from  one  to 
the  other,  I  only  take  out  of  my  left  haaA  wh»t  it  can  not  lo  well  nae, 
and  put  it  Into  my  right  hand  wheff  it  ean  be  better  need. 

M'.  OnwT  thought  it  waa  rather  taking  out  of  the  right  haaA  * 
putting  it  into  the  left.  Will  any  man  lay  that  liberty  will  be  aa  wfe 
in  the  hande  of  ei^ty  or  a  hundred  men  Uken  from  the  whole  con- 
tinent, aa  in  the  han^  of  two  or  three  hundred  taken  from  a  aingle 

State. 

HP  Dattoh  waa  againat  «o  ab«)lute  a  oniformity.    In  aomo 

Statee  there  ought  to  be  a  greater  proporticm  of  cavalry  than  in 

others.    In  aome   place*  rifle*  would  be  moat  proper,   in  othen 

muskets  4ke. 

Gen!  Pinknet  preferred  the  clauae  reported  by  the  Committee, 

extending  the  meaning  of  it  to  the  caae  of  flnee  Ac. 

M'.  Madison.  The  primary  object  ia  to  aecure  an  effectual  dia- 
cipline  of  the  Militia.  Thia  will  no  more  bo  done  if  left  to  the 
Sutea  aeparatdy  than  the  requiaitiona  have  been  hitherto  paid  by 
them.  The  Statea  nef^ect  their  Militia  now,  and  the  more  they  are 
«)nBoIidated  into  one  nation,  the  leaa  each  will  rely  on  ita  own  in- 
lerior  proviaiona  for  ita  aafety  4  the  leaa  prepare  ita  Militia  for  that 
purpooe;  in  like  manner  aa  the  militia  of  a  State  wquld  have  been 
still  more  neglected  than  it  has  been  if  each  County  had  been  inde- 
pendentiy  charged  with  the  care  of  ita  Militia.  The  Discipline  of 
the  Militia  ia  evidently  a  National  concern,  and  ought  to  be  provided 
for  in  the  Nationai  Constitution. 

m  L.  Mastin  waa  confident  that  the  Statea  would  never  give  up 
the  power  over  the  MUitia;  and  that,  if  they  were  to  dp  so  the 
militia  would  be  leaa  attended  to  by  the  Gen!  than  by  the  Stata 

Govemmento.  wu*- 

MT  Randolph  aaked  what  danger  there  could  be  that  the  Muitia 
could  be  brought  into  the  field  and  made  to  commit  auicide  on  them- 
selvea.  Thia  is  a  power  that  can  not  from  ita  nature  be  abiMed,  unleea 
indeed  the  wh«rfe  masa  dionld  be  corrupted.  He  waa  for  trammelling 
the  Gen!  Gov?  wherever  there  waa  danger,  but  here  there  could  be 
none.  He  urged  this  aa  an  eawntial  point ;  observing  that  the  Militia 
were  every  where  neglected  by  the  State  Legislaturea,  the  mmbera 
of  which  courted  popularity  too  much  to  enforce  a  proper  discipline. 
Leaving  the  appointment  of  officers  to  the  States  protecta  the  people 
a(?"  every  apprehension  that  could  produce  murmur. 
On  •  Question  on  MT  Elaworth'a  Motion 


•  The  word  "  th«  "  i»  here  interted  !■  the  trmscript. 


MiaocOPY   nsOlUTION   TBT  a-A«T 

(ANSI  and  ISO  TEST  CHART  No   2i 


4    •APPLIED  IIVMGE 


1653    iQ'A   Mom    Street 

Rocheatef.  N«*  Yo'k         '4609       u^ 

(7'6}   482  -0300*  Phone 

(716)  2M-5989-ra« 


454      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

N.  H.  no.  Has.  no.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P*  no.  Del  no.  IK  no. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

A  motion  waa  then  made  to  recommit  the  2?  clause  which  was 
negatived. 

On  <      question  to  agree  to  the  If*  part  of  the  clause,  namely 

"Tw  .^ake  laws  for  organizing  arming  &  disciplining  the  AClitia, 
and  for  governing  such  part  of  them  as  may  be  employed  in  the 
service  of  the  U.S." 

N.  H  ay.  Mas.  ay.  G  no.  N.  J.  ay.  K  ay.  DeL  ay.  M*  no. 
V*  ay.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

M5  Madison  moved  to  amend  the  next  part  of  the  clause  so  as  to 
read  "  reserving  to  the  States  respectively,  the  appointment  of  the 
ofScers,  under  the  rank  of  Oenerdl  officers  " 

Mr  Sheeman  considered  this  as  absolutely  inadmissible.  He  said 
that  if  the  people  should  be  so  far  asleep  as  to  allow  the  most  in- 
fluential officers  of  the  militia  to  be  appointed  by  the  GenJ  Govern- 
ment, every  man  of  discernment  would  rouse  them  by  sounding  the 
alarm  to  themu 

M?  Gerrt.  Let  us  at  once  destroy  the  &tate  Qov*f  have  an  Ex- 
ecutive for  life  or  hereditary,  and  a  proper  Senate,  and  then  there 
would  be  some  consistency  in  giving  full  powers  to  the  Gen!  Qov? 
but  as  the  States  are  not  to  be  aboliriied,  he  wondered  at  the  attempts 
that  were  made  to  give  powers  inconsistent  with  their  existence.  He 
warned  the  Convention  ag!»  pushing  the  experiment  too  far.  Some 
people  will  support  a  plan  of  vigorous  Government  at  every  risk. 
Others  of  a  more  democratic  cast  will  oppose  it  with  equal  determina- 
tion, and  a  Civil  war  may  be  produced  by  the  conflict. 

Mr  Madison.  As  the  greatest  danger  is  that  of  disunion  of  the 
States,  it  is  necessary  to  guard  ag«  it  by  sufficient  powers  to  ths 
Common  Gov?  and  as  the  greatest  danger  to  Uberty  is  from  large 
standing  armies,  it  is  beet  to  prevent  them,  by  an  effectual  provision 
for  a  good  Militia. 

On  the  Question  to  agree  to  m  Madison's  motion 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  Ci  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  no.  Del.  no  M*  no. 
V*  no.   N.  C.  no.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.*  ay.« 

*  In  the  printed  Journal,  Oeo:  no. 


.'  I?  *A*  t"»«'ipt  thejote  reads:  "  Connecticut,  aye;  the  other  ten  States,  no." 
'In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "New  Hampshire    Maesachuiiett.   N»w 

Ueorgia,  aye — 9;  Connecticut,  Maryland,  no— 2." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  South  Carolina 
Georgia^'  ave-3;  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jerwy,  Pennsylwinla  DeU 
ware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  nol-8."  r™n8yivania,  ueia 


SESSION  OF  THUBSDAT,  AUGUSl  23,  1787 


456 


On  the  qnettion  to  agree  to  the  "  reaerring  to  the  States  the 
sppointment  of  the  officers."    It  was  agreed  to  nem:  contrad: 

On  the  question  on  the  clause  "  and  the  anthority  of  training  the 
Militia  according  to  the  discipline  prescribed  by  the  U.  S — " 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  DeL  no.  M^  ay. 
V?  no.  N.  C.  ay.  S.  C.  no.  Geo.  no.* 

On  the  qnestion  to  agree  to  Art.  VII.  Sect.  7.*  as  reported  It 
passed  nem.  contrad: 

M!  PiNKNST  urged  the  necessity  of  preserving  fordgn  Ministers 
&  other  officers  of  the  U.  S.  independent  of  external  influence  and 
moved  to  insert,  after  Art  VII  Sect  7.  the  clause  following — ^"No  per- 
son holding  any  office  of  pn^t  or  trust  *  under  the  U.  S.  shall  without 
the  consent  of  the  Legislature,  accept  of  any  present,  emolument,  office 
or  title  of  any  kind  whatever,  from  any  King,  Prince  or  foreign  State 
which  passed  nem:  contrad. 

Ml  BuiijiDaB  moved  to  amend  Art:  vlll»  to  read  as  follows, 

"This  Constitution  ft  the  laws  of  the  U.  S.  made  in  pursuance 
thereof,  and  all  Treaties  made  under  the  anthority  of  the  U.  S. 
shall  be  the  supreme  law  of  the  several  States  and  of  their  citizens 
and  inhabitants ;  and  the  Judges  in  the  several  States  shall  be  bound 
thereby  in  their  decisions,  any  thing  in  the  Constitutions  or  laws  of 
the  several  States,  to  the  contrary  notwithstanding." 
which  was  agreed  to  nem:  cMitrad: 

Art:  IX'  being  next  for  consideration, 

M'.  Oovi  MoBBis  argued  ag!*  the  appointment  of  officers  by  the 
Senate.  He  considered  the  body  as  too  numerous  for  the  *  purpose ;  as 
subject  to  cabal ;  and  as  devoid  of  responsibility.  If  Judges  were  to 
be  tried  by  the  Senate  according  to  a  late  report  of  a  Committee  it 
was  particularly  wrong  to  let  the  Senate  have  the  filling  of  vacancies 
which  its  own  decrees  were  to  create. 

MT  Wilson  was  of  the  same  opinion  ft  for  like  reasons. 

The  ■  art  IX  being  waived  and  art  VII.  sect  1.*  resumed, 

Mt  Oov!  MoHOS  moved  to  strike  the  following  words  out  of  the 

*  In  t'  tntnieript  the  vote  reada:  "  N«w  Hampshire,  MaHachueetta,  Con- 
necticut, New  Jersey,  PeiuiaylTanta,  Maryland,  North  Carolina,  aye — 7;  Dela- 
ware, Virginia,  South  CaroliB*,  Georgia,  a»—4." 

'  See  page  342. 

*  The  worda  "  profit  or  tmit "  are  tranapoaed  to  read  "  tmat  or  profit "  is 
the  transcript. 

'  Hie  word  "that"  ia  substitntcd  in  the  transcript  for  "the." 
■  The  word  "  the  "  is  crossed  out  in  the  transcript. 

*  See  page  340. 


4M     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

18  clause  "  enforce  treaties  "  as  being  superfluous,  since  treaties  were 
to  be  "  laws  "—  which  was  agreed  to  nem:  contrad: 

M:  Govt  Morhib  moved  to  alter »  1«  part,  of '  18.  clause  sect.  1. 
art.  VII »  80  as  to  read  "  to  provide  for  calling  forth  the  Militia  to 
execute  the  laws  of  the  Union,  suppress  insurrections  and  repel  in- 
vasions." 

which  was  agreed  to  nem:  contrad 

On  the  question  then  to  agree  to  the  18  clause  of  Sect.  1.  art:  7. 
as  amended  it  passed  in  the  aflBrmative  nem :  wmtradicente. 

M;  C-  Pikknbt  moved  to  add  as  an  additional  power  to  be  vested 
in  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  "  To  negative  all  laws  passed  by  the 
several  States  interfering  in  the  opinion  of  the  Legislature  with  the 
general  interests  and  harmony  of  the  Union;  provided  that  two 
thirds  of  the  members  of  each  House  assent  to  the  same" 

This  principle  he  observed  had  formerly  been  agreed  to.  He 
considered  the  precaution  as  essentiaUy  necessary:  The  objection 
drawn  from  the  predominance  of  the  large  States  had  been  removed 
by  the  equality  established  in  the  Senate.  MT  Broome  2**  the  propo- 
sition. 

Ml  Sherman  thought  it  unnecessary;  the  laws  of  the  General 
Govr  ment  being  Supreme  &  paramount  to  the  State  laws  according 
to  tae  plan,  as  it  now  stands. 

Mt  Madison  proposed  that  it  should  be  committed.  He  had  been 
from  the  beginning  a  friend  to  the  principle;  but  thought  the  modifi- 
cation  might  be  made  better. 

Mr  Mason  wished  to  know  how  the  power  was  to  be  exercised. 
Are  all  laws  whatever  to  be  brou^t  upt  Is  no  road  nor  bridge  to 
be  established  without  the  Sanction  of  the  General  Legislature  T  Is 
this  to  sit  constantiy  in  order  to  receive  &  revise  the  State  Laws! 
He  did  not  mean  by  these  remarks  to  condemn  the  expedient,  but  he 
was  apprehensive  that  great  objections  would  lie  agP  it. 

IP  WiLLUMSON  thought  it  unnecessary,  &  having  been  already 
decided,  a  revival  of  the  question  was  a  waste  of  time. 

M*.  Wilson  considered  this  as  the  key-stone  wanted  to  compleat 
the  wide  arch  of  Government,  we  are  raising.  The  power  of  self- 
defence  had  been  urged  as  necessary  for  the  State  Governments,  It 
was  equally  necessary  for  the  General  Government.  The  firmness  of 
Judges  is  not  of  itself  sufficient.  Something  further  is  requisite.  It 
will  be  better  to  prevent  the  passage  of  an  improper  law,  than  to 
declare  it  void  when  passed. 


■The  word  "the"  is  here  i    (rted  in  the  transcript. 
"The  transcript  omits  "  sect.  1.  art.  VII." 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  AUGUST  28,  1787 


467 


M!  BuTLiDOE.  If  nothing  elae,  this  alone  would  damn  and  oti|^t 
to  damn  the  Constitation.  Will  any  State  ever  agree  to  be  bonnd 
hand  &  foot  in  this  manner.  It  is  worse  than  making  mere  corpora- 
tions of  them  whose  bye  laws  woold  not  be  subject  to  this  shackle. 

W  EunwoRTH  observed  that  the  power  contended  for  w1  require 
either  that  all  laws  of  the  State  Legislatures  should  previoual.  to 
their  taking  effect  be  transmitted  to  the  Oen.*  Legislature,  or  be 
repealable  by  the  Latter;  or  that  the  State  Executives  should  be  ap- 
pointed by  the  Oea'  Government,  and  have  a  controul  over  the  State 
laws.    If  the  last  was  meditated  let  it  be  declared. 

MT  PnncNCT  declared  that  he  thought  the  State  Executives  ought 
to  be  so  appointed  with  such  a  controul,  ft  that  it  would  be  so  pro- 
vided if  another  Convention  should  take  place. 

W.  OovKRNt  MoniiB  did  not  see  the  utility  or  practicability  of  the 
proposition  of  W  Pinkney,  but  wished  it  to  be  referred  to  the  con- 
sideration of  a  Committee. 

M?  Lanodon  was  in  favor  of  the  proposition.  He  considered  it 
as  resolvable  into  the  question  hethei  the  extent  of  the  National 
Constitutiim  was  to  be  judged  of  by  the  GeiJ  or  the  State  Govern- 
ments. 

On  the  question  for  commitment,  it  passed  in  the  negative. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas?  no.  Con?  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Del:  ay.  M"?  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

M?  Pinkney  then  withdrew  his  proposition. 

The  1!*  sect,  of  art:  VII '  being  so  amended  as  to  read  "  The  Legis- 
lature shdl  fulfil  the  engagements  and  discharge  the  debts  of  the 
U.  S.  &  shall  have  the  power  to  lay  &  collect  taxes  duties  imposts  ft 
excises,"  was  agreed  to. 

M'.  BuTLEs  expressed  his  dissatisfaction  lest  it  should  compel  pay- 
ment as  well  to  the  Blood-suckers  who  had  speculated  on  the  distresses 
of  others,  as  to  those  who  had  fought  ft  bled  for  their  country. 
He  would  be  ready  he  said  tomorrow  to  vote  for  a  discrimination 
between  those  clafves  of  people,  and  gave  notice  that  he  should '  move 
for  a  reconsideration. 

Art  TX.  sect.  1.*  being  resumed,  to  wit  "  The  Senate  of  the  U.  S. 
shall  have  power  to  make  treaties,  and  to  appoint  Ambassadors,  and 
Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court.*' 

'In  th?  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "New  Hamr'hire,  Pennsylvania,  Dela- 
ware. Maryland,  Virf^nia,  aye— 6;  Massachusetts,  Jonnecticnt,  New  Jersey, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— fl." 

•  The  phrase  "  The  first  clause  of  article  7.  section  1 "  ia  substituted  in  the 
transcript  for  "  The  1"<  sect,  of  art :  VII." 

•  The  word  "  wouid  "  it  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  should." 
'  See  page  342. 


458     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

MT  Madison  observed  that  the  Senate  reprewnted  the  Statea 
alone,  and  that  for  this  as  well  as  other  obTions  reasons  it  waa  proper 
that  the  President  should  be  an  agent  in  Treaties. 

MT  Govt  MoHRis  did  not  know  that  he  should  agree  to  refer  the 
making  of  Treaties  to  the  Senate  at  all,  but  for  the  present  w4  move 
to  add,  as  an  amendment  to  the  section  after  "  Treaties  "— » "  but  no 
Treaty  shall  be  binding  on  the  U.  S.  which  is  not  ratified  by  a  law." 
M;  Maoison  suggested  the  inconvenience  of  requiring  a  legal 
ratification  of  treaties  of  alliance  for  the  purposes  of  war  &c  &c 
Mr  Ohorum.    Many  other  disadvantages  must  be  experienced  if 

treaties  of  peace  &  all  negociations  are  to  be  previously  ratified 

and  if  not  previously,  the  Ministers  would  be  at  a  loss  how  to  pro- 
ceed.  What  would  be  the  case  in  0.  Britain  if  the  King  were  to 
proceed  in  this  manner.  American  Ministers  must  go  abroad  not 
instructed  by  the  same  Authority  (as  will  be  the  case  with  other 
Ministers)  which  is  to  ratify  their  proceedings. 

Mr  Gov!  Morris.  As  to  treaties  of  alliance,  they  will  oblige  for- 
eign powers  to  send  their  Ministers  here,  the  very  thing  we  should 
wish  for.  Such  treaties  could  not  be  otherwise  made,  if  his  amend- 
ment ah?  succeed.  In  general  he  was  not  solicitous  to  multiply  & 
facilitate  Treaties.  He  wished  none  to  be  made  with  G.  Britain,  till 
she  should  be  at  war.  Then  a  good  bargain  might  be  made  with  her. 
So  with  other  foreign  powers.  The  more  difficulty  in  making  treaties, 
the  more  value  wOl  be  set  on  them. 

M'.  Wilson.  In  the  most  important  Treaties,  the  King  of  G. 
Britain  being  obliged  to  resort  to  Parliament  for  the  execution  of 
them,  is  under  the  same  fetters  as  the  amendment  of  M  Morris  will 
impose  on  the  Senate.  It  was  refused  yesterday  to  permit  even  the 
Legislature  to  lay  duties  on  exports.  Under  the  clause,  without  the 
amendment,  the  Senate  alone  can  make  a  Treaty,  requiring  all  the 
Rice  of  S.  Carolina  to  be  sent  to  some  one  particular  port. 

M^  Dickinson  concurred  in  the  amendment,  aa  most  safe  and 
proper,  tho'  he  was  sensible  it  was  unfavorable  to  the  little  Statw; 
w^  would  otherwise  have  an  equal  share  in  Tnaking  Treaties. 

DocT  Johnson  thought  there  was  something  of  solecism  in  saying 
that  the  acts  of  a  Minister  with  plenipotentiary  powers  from  one 
Body,  should  depend  for  ratification  on  another  Body.  The  Example 
of  the  King  of  G.  B.  was  not  parellel.  Full  &  compleat  power  was 
vested  in  him.  If  the  Parliament  should  fail  to  provide  the  neces- 
sary means  of  execution,  the  Treaty  would  be  violated. 


'  The  words  "  the  following  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  trantcript. 


SESSION  OF  FRIDAT,  AUGUST  24.  1787 


459 


M?  Qacmvu  in  answer  to  W  Qor?  'Uouaa,  said  that  negociations 
on  the  spot  were  not  to  be  desired  by  us,  especially  if  the  whole 
Legislature  is  to  have  any  thing  to  do  with  Treaties.  It  will  be 
generally  influenced  by  two  or  three  men,  who  will  be  corrupted  by 
the  Ambassadors  here.  In  such  a  Oovemment  as  ours,  it  is  necessary 
to  guard  against  the  (Government  itself  being  seduced. 

Mr  Randolph  observing  that  almost  every  Speaker  had  made 
objections  to  the  clause  as  it  stood,  moved  in  order  to  a  further  con- 
sideration of  the  subject,  that  the  Motion  of  M:  Qov?  Morris  should 
be  postponed,  and  on  this  question  It  was  lost  the  States  being 
equally  divided. 

Mass!*  no.  Cont  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Pen*  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay.  Y?  ay. 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

On  W.  Gov?  Morris  Motion 

Mas?  no.  Con?  no.  N.  J.  no.  Fi  ay.  Del.  no.  M*  no.  V?  no. 
N.  C.  div*.   S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

The  several  clauses  of  Sect :  1.  Art  IX,  were  then  separately  post- 
poned after  inserting  "  and  other  public  Ministers  "  next  after 
"Ambassadors." 

M^  Madison  hinted  for  consideration,  whether  a  distinction  might 
not  be  made  between  different  sorts  of  Treaties — Allowing  the  Presi- 
dent &  Senate  to  make  Treaties  eventual  and  of  Alliance  for  limited 
terms — and  requiring  the  concurrence  of  the  whole  Legislature  in 
other  Treaties. 

The  1!*  Sect  art  IX.  was  finally  referred  nem:  con:  to  the  com- 
mittee of  Five,  and  the  House  then 

Adjourned 


Fbiday  AxJonsT  24.  1787.*    In  Convention 

Govemour  Livinoston,  from  the  Committee  of  Eleven,  to  whom 
were  referred  the  two  remaining  clauses  of  the  4"?  Sect  &  the  5  &  6 
Sect :  of  the  7*^  art :  *  delivered  in  the  following  Report : 

"Strike  out  so  much  of  the  4"'  Sect:  as  was  referred  to  the 
Committee  and  insert — "The  migration  or  importation  of  such  per- 

■In  the  tranicript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jeney,  PennsylTania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  aye — S;  Manachtnetta,  Gmnecticnt,  North  Carolina,  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no-— S." 

"In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "Pennsylvania,  aye — 1;  Massachnsetta, 
Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Uaryland,  Virginia,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  no— 8." 

•  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  See  page  341. 


460     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  0^  1787 

wns  M  the  MTenI  SUtec  now  ezuting  ihall  think  proper  to  admit 
•hall  not  be  prohibited  by  the  Legialattue  prior  to  the  year  1800,' 
but  a  tax  or  duty  may  be  imposed  on  such  migration  or  importation 
at  a  rate  not  exceeding  the  average  of  the  duties  laid  on  imports." 

"  The  5  Sect:  to  remain  as  in  the  Report  " 

"  The  6  Sect  to  be  stricken  out  " 

Ml  Butler,  according  to  notice,  moved  that  clause  1?  sect.  1. 
of  Art  VII,  as  to  the  discharge  of  debts,  be  reconsidered  tomorrow. 
He  dwelt  on  the  division  of  opinion  concerning  the  domestic  debts, 
and  the  different  pretensions  of  the  different  classes  of  holders.  GeiJ 
PiNKNET  2*!*  him. 

i/f.  Randolph  wished  for  a  reconsideration  in  order  to  better  the 
expression,  and  to  provide  for  the  case  of  the  State  debts  as  is  done 
by  Congress. 

On  the  question  for  reconsidering 

N.  H.  no.  Mas:  ay.  Con?  ay  N.  J.  ay.  Pen?  absent.  Del.  ay 
W  no.  Vr  ay.  N.  C.  absent,  S.  C.  ay.  Geo.  ay.'— and  tomorrow 
assigned  for  the  reconsideration. 

Sect:  2  &  3  of  ».t:  IX  *  being  taken  up, 

Mr  RuTUDOE  said  this  provision  for  deciding  controversies  be- 
tween the  States  was  necessary  under  the  Confederation,  but  will  be 
rendered  unnecessary  by  the  National  Judiciary  now  to  be  established, 
and  moved  to  strike  it  out. 

Doc!  Johnson  2*t*  the  Motion 

iK  Sherman  concurred :  so  did  MT  Dayton. 

M'.  Wiluamson  was  for  postponing  instead  of  striking  out,  in 
order  to  consider  whether  this  might  not  be  a  good  provision,  in  cases 
where  the  Judiciary  were  interested  or  too  closely  connected  with  the 
parties. 

Mr  Ghorum  had  doubts  as  to  striking  out.  The  Judges  might  be 
connected  with  the  States  being  parties— He  was  inclined  to  think 
the  mode  proposed  in  the  clause  would  be  more  satisfactory  than  to 
refer  such  cases  to  the  Judiciary. 

On  the  Question  for  postponing  the  2«  &  3?  Section,  it  passed  in 
the  negative 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas*rno.  Con!  no  N.J.  no.  Penfabs!  Del.no.  Ml  no. 
V»  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.> 


T  r.*?     tranKript   the   vote   reads:     "  M«M«chuBett8,    Connecticut,    New 

Jersey,  Delaware,  Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 7;  New  Hampihire 
Maryland,  no-2;  Pennsylvania.  North  Carolina,  absent"  ^""P""™, 

'  See  pages  342  and  343. 

fi«.r'ir  .*^1_V*"« ''P*  v*'"./"*?,  ""iV  "^^^  Hampshire,  North  Carolina. 
Georgia,  aye— 3;  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey.  Delaware,  Maryland. 
Virginia.  South  Carolina,  no— 7;  Pennsylvania,  absent"  "-ryiano. 


8BS8I0N  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  24,  1787  461 

Mt  WiMON  urged  the  etrikiiig  oat,  the  Judiciary  being  »  better 

On  Qneetion  for  itriking  out »  2  4  3  Sections «  Art  •  IX 
N.ELv.    Meav.    C!.y.    N.  J.  .y.    Pf  «b.»     Del.  .y.    Ml  v 
Vf  ay.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  ay.  Geo.  no.» 

Art  X.  eect.  l.«  "  The  executive  power  of  the  U.  S.  ahaU  be 
vested  m  a  single  peraon.  His  stUe  shall  be  "  The  President  of  the 
U.  S.  of  America  and  his  title  shall  be  "  His  Excellency."  He 
shall  bo  elected  by  baUot  by  the  I  rislature.  He  shaU  hold  hia 
office  during  the  term  of  seven  years ;  but  shall  not  be  elected  a  second 
time. 

On  the  question  for  vesting  the  power  in  a  lingk  fwrnnk  It  waa 
agreed  to  nem:  con:  So  also  on  the  SOU  and  titU. 

MT  BuTUDOi  moved  to  insert  "  joint  "  before  the  word  "  ballot" 
as  the  most  convenient  mode  of  electing. 

Mt  Shhiman  objected  to  it  as  depriving  the  State,  represented  in 
the  Senate  of  the  negative  intended  them  in  that  house 

m  Ghobuh  said  it  waa  wrong  to  be  eonaidering  at  every  turn 
whom  the  Senate  would  represent    The  publie  good  waa  tiie  true 

•*r  *  ^^P*  ^/'"'-  ^'^^  ^^y  "^  confusion  would  ensue 
if  the  two  Houses  sh?  vote  separately,  each  having  a  negative  on  the 
choice  of  the  other.  -»»«»»  ou  we 

IB  Dayton.  It  might  be  well  for  those  not  to  consider  how  the 
Senate  waa  instituted,  whose  interest  it  waa  to  keep  it  out  of  sight- 
If  the  amendment  should  be  agreed  to,  m  jamt'  ballot  would  in  fact 
give  the  appointment  to  one  House.  He  could  never  agree  to  the 
clau«  with  such  an  amendment  There  could  be  no  doubt  of  the 
two  Houses  separately  concurring  in  the  same  person  for  President 
The  importance  &  necessity  of  the  case  would  ensure  a  concurrence. 
IC  Cabkol  moved  to  strike  out '<  by  the  Legislature  "  and  inaert 
by  the  people."    M!  Wilson  2--  him  &  on  the  question 

v!^    M°r  ""'«°^-   ^°°-°''-  ^•''•°*»-   ^"y-   ^^V.   M-no. 
Vf  no    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no,« 

Mr  Bbeably  was  opposed  to  the  motion  for^  inserting  the  word 

•??!  r°!!?  u^h",  ••  •'«'■•  '"••rted  in  the  tnin«cript. 

'.  ?^lv'*i""'"'P*  ^°*"  "•»*  it«IicUe  the  word  "  Mmk" 

'  The  word.  "  the  jnotiou  for  "  are  oi^iitted  in  the  tranwript. 


462      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

"  joint."  The  argument  that  the  nnall  Statee  ■hoold  not  pnt  their 
hande  into  the  pockets  of  the  large  ones  did  not  apply  in  this  ease. 

Mt  WaooN  urged  the  reasonableness  of  giving  the  larger  States 
a  larger  share  of  the  appointment,  and  the  danger  of  delay  from  a 
disagreement  of  the  two  Houses.  He  remarked  also  that  the  Senate 
had  peculiar  powers  balancing  the  advantage  given  by  a  joint  balot 
in  this  case  to  the  other  branch  of  the  Legislature. 

MT  Lamodon.  This  general  ofBcer  ought  to  be  elected  by  the 
joint  A  general  voice.  In  N.  Hampshire  the  mode  of  separate  votes 
by  the  two  Houses  was  productive  of  great  difficulties.  The  negative 
of  the  Senate  would  hurt  the  feelings  of  the  man  elected  by  the  vot«\ 
of  the  other  branch.  He  was  for  inserting  "  joint  "  tho'  unfavorable 
to  N.  Hampshire  as  a  small  State. 

Mt  WiuaoN  remarked  that  as  the  President  of  the  Senate  was  to 
be  President  of  the  U.  S.  that  Body  in  cases  of  vacancy  mit^t 
have  an  interest  in  throwing  dilatory  obstacles  in  the  way,  if  its 
separate  concurrence  should  be  required. 

Mr  Maoison.  If  the  amendment  be  agreed  to  the  rule  of  voting 
will  give  to  the  largest  State,  compared  with  the  smallest,  an  influ- 
ence as  4  to  1  only,  altho  the  population  is  as  10  to  1.  This  surely 
can  not  be  unreasonable  as  the  President  is  to  act  for  the  peoph  not 
for  the  States.  The  President  of  the  Senate  also  is  to  be  occasionally 
President  of  the  U.  S.  and  by  his  negative  alone  can  make  %  of  the 
other  br  ach  necessary  to  the  passage  of  a  law.  This  is  another 
advantage  enjoyed  by  the  Senate. 

On  the  question  for  inserting  "  joint,"  it  passed  in  the  affirmative 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas?  ay.  C!  no.  N.  J.  no.  P*  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  no. 
V*  ay.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

M?  Datton  then  moved  to  insert,  after  the  word  "  Legislatures  " ' 
the  words  "each  State  having  one  vote"  Mt  Breablet  2^  him,  and 
on  the  question  it  passed  in  the  negative 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  no.  Del.  ay.  M?  ay. 
V?  no.   N.  C.  na   S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

Mt  PiNKNET  moved  to  insert  after  the  word  "  Le^slature  "  the 
words  "  to  which  election  a  majority  of  the  votes  of  the  members 
present  shall  be  required"  & 


'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampihire,  MaiaacbnKtta,  Penn- 
sylvania, Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye — 7;  Cooneeti- 
cut,  Nrw  Jersey,  Maryland,  Georgia,  no— 4." 

'  In  the  transcript  the  word  "  Legislatures  "  is  in  the  singnlar. 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Georgia,  aye — S;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,  Vir- 
ginia, North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no — 6." 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  24,  1787  468 


DtLity.    Uttj, 


On  thii  qoMtion,  it  paaed  in  th«  afflnnativa 

N.  H.  ay.    Many,    en  ay.    N.  J.  no.    P?  ay. 
V*  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

M'.  RxAD  moved  "  tliat  in  eaae  tb«  nomben  for  the  two  higheat 
in  votea  should  be  equal,  then  the  Prendant  of  the  S«wte  ahall  have 
■n  additional  eaating  vote,"  whieh  waa  diaagrced  to  by  a  general 
negative. 

W  Govt  Menus  oppoaed  the  eleetion  of  the  Prerident  by  the 
Legislature.  He  dwelt  on  the  danger  of  rendering  the  Ezeeutiva 
uninterested  in  maintaining  the  rights  of  his  Station,  as  leading  to 
LegislaUve  tyranny.  If  the  Legislature  have  the  Executive  da- 
pendent  on  them,  they  ean  perpetuate  ft  support  their  usurpationa 
by  the  influence  of  tax-gathei«rs  ft  other  ofBcen,  by  fleets  armies  fto. 
Cabal  ft  eormption  are  attaehed  to  that  mode  of  election:  ao  also '  is 
ineligibility  a  second  time.  Hence  the  Executive  is  intet««ted  in 
Courting  popularity  in  the  Legislature  by  sacrificing  his  Exeeutiva 
Rights;  ft  then  he  ean  go  into  that  Body,  after  the  expiration 
of  his  Executive  office,  and  enjoy  there  the  fruita  of  his  poBcy. 
To  these  conaiderationa  he  added  that  rivals  would  be  continually 
mtngueing  to  oust  the  President  from  his  place.  To  guard 
against  aU  these  evils  he  moved  that  the  President  "shaU  be  chosen 
by  Electors  to  be  chosen  by  the  People  of  the  several  Stotes" 
Mr  Cabbo.  2**  him  ft  on  the  question  it  passed  in  the  negative 

N.  EL  no.  Ma^  no.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P*  ay.  Del.  ay.  M«  no. 
V?  ay.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  no.  Geo.  no.» 

Mr  Datton  moved  to  postpone  the  consideration  of  the  two  last 
clauses  of  Sect.  1.  art  X  which  waa  disagreed  to  without  a  count 
of  the  States. 

Mt  Brooio:  moved  to  refer  the  two  clauses  to  a  Committee  of  a 
member  from  each  State,  ft  on  the  question,  it  faUed  the  States  beins 
equally  divided 

N.Hno.  Mas.no.  CI  div-  N.  J.  v  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M*  ay. 
V?  ay.  N.  C.  no.  S.  C.  na  Geo.  no.« 

On  the  question  taken  on  the  first  part  of  Ml  Govt  Morris's 


^■The  worf  "«1»-  {.  omitted  in  the  tranicript. 


Carolms,  Soutli  CaroUnm  Georcte,  no— «.' 


^■ruima,  oomn  uaroumt,  Ueonte,  no— «."  '  —    

Xf.^i     j*'^.*!2"?***P*  *•*  ^  '*'^=  "New  Jewer,  PennerlTsnU    Delaware 


464      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


Motion  towit  "ihall  b«  ehoMii  by  electon"  h  an  abatraet  qtiMtioa, 
it  failed  th«  States  being  equally  divided. 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  aba!  Q  divl  N.  Jeney  ay.  P*  ay.  Del.  ay.  Iff 
diy!    V*  ay.    N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  na    Oeo.  no.> 

The  eonaideration  of  the  remaininff  elauaea  of  Sect  1.  art  X 
waa  then  poetponed  till  tomorrow  at  the  inatanee  of  the  Depatiea 
of  New  Jereey. 

Sect.  2.  Art:  X  *  being  taken  up,  the  word  information  waa  traaa- 
poaed  A  inierted  after  "  Legialature  " 

On  motion  of  W,  Oovf  Monam,  "  he  may  "  waa  itmek  oat,  4 
"and"  inaerted  before  "reeommend"  in  claoae  2f  sect  2*  art: 
X.  in  order  to  make  it  the  duty  of  the  Preaident  to  reeommend,  A 
thence  prevent  umbrage  or  cavil  at  hia  doing  it. 

ftp  Shebman  objected  to  the  aentence  "  and  ahall  appoint  oflloen 
in  all  eaaea  not  otherwiae  provided  for  by*  thia  Conatitntion. "  Ha 
admitted  it  to  be  proper  that  many  offlcera  in  the  Executive  Depart- 
ment ahould  be  ao  appointed — but  eontendrd  that  many  oug^t  not,  aa 
general  oiBcera  in  the  army  in  time  of  peaee  Ac.  Herein  lay  the  eor- 
raption  in  O.  BriUin.  If  the  Ezecnt've  can  model  the  army,  ha 
may  aet  op  an  abaolote  Cknremment;  taking  f>dvaiitage  of  the  eloae  of 
a  war  and  an  army  commanded  by  hia  creatnrea.  Jamea  21  waa 
not  obeyed  by  hia  offleera  becauae  they  had  been  appointed  by  hia 
predeceawra  not  by  himaelf.  He  moved  to  inaert  "  or  by  law  "  after 
the  word  "  Conatitntion." 

On  M'ltion  of  AT.  Madison  "olBcere"  waa  atruek  out  and  "to 
officea  "  inaerted,  in  order  to  obviate  doubta  that  he  might  appoint 
oflSeen  without  a  previoua  creation  of  the  offioea  by  the  Legialatnre. 

On  the  question  for  inserting  "or  by  law  aa  moved  by  W  Sherman 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  no.  G  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pen;  no.  Del.  no.  W  no 
Tt  no.    N.  C.  abaent    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

Mr  DicKnraoN  moved  tr  strike  out  the  worda  "  and  ahall  appoint 
to  offices  in  all  eaaea  not  otherwiae  provided  for  by  this  Conatitntion" 
and  insert—"  and  shall  appoint  to  all  oiBcea  established  by  this  Con- 
stitntion,  except  in  eaaea  herein  otherwise  provided  for,  and  to  all 
officea  which  may  hereafter  w  created  by  law." 

MT  Randolph  observed  '.hat  the  power  of  appointments  was  a 

'In  the  tranieript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jeriey,  PemuyWauia,  Delaware, 
Virginia,  aye— 4;  New  Hampihire,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Ocorgia. 
no— 4;  Connecticut,  MaiyUnd,  diridail;  Mauachuaetts,  ahaoit.'' 

"  See  page  343. 

■The  word  "in"  ia  aubatituted  in  the  tranaeript  for  "by." 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  aye — 1;  New  Haapshire. 
MaseachuMtU,  New  ,>..raey,  PennaylTania,  Delaware,  Maryland.  Yirginia,  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 9;  North  Carolina,  absent." 


SESSION  OF  SATURDAY.  AUGUST  26,  1787  46S 

fonnidaU*  <hm  both  in  Um  EueatiTe  A  Lif iaUtire  h«id»-4nd  mfb 
gMted  wiMthcr  tlM  Legidatare  ■honld  not  b*  left  at  Ub«rty  to  rafar 
appointments  in  wme  easea,  to  aone  State  antlwrity. 

W  DiomtaiMr'a  motion,  it'  pommI  in  the  afflmativ* 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  no.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  i^y.  P»  «..  Dd,  no.  M*  ay. 
V!ay.   N.  C.  aba!    8.  C.  no.   Geo.  ay.» 

Mr  DicKJMaoM  then  moved  to  annex  to  hia  laat  amendment  "  except 
where  by  law  the  appointment  ahall  be  veeted  in  the  Legiilatures  or 
Exwutivee  of  the  aereral  Statea."   W  Bawdolph  2*:*  the  motion 

Mr  WiMOK—  If  thia  be  afreed  to  it  wiU  aoon  be  a  aUndinf  in- 
•traction  from  the  SUte  Le«iilatnrea  to  paaa  no  law  ereating  offices, 
unlcM  the  app*?  be  referred  to  them. 

W.  Shxrman  objected  to  "  Legialatarea  "  in  the  motion,  which 
wa«  (trudc  out  by  consent  of  the  movers. 

MT  Govf  Ifomn.  Thia  would  bo  putting  it  in  the  power  of  the 
Sutcs  to  say,  "  You  ahaU  be  Tieenys  but  we  wiU  be  viceroys  over 
you  "— 

The  Motimi  war  negatived  without  a  Count  of  the  States- 
Ordered  unanmously  that  the  order  respecting  the  adjournment 

at  4  OClock  be  -epealed,  *  that  in  futore  the  House  assemble  at 

10  OC.  ft  adjourn  at  3  OC* 

Adjoomad 


8atdm>at  Avrnn.  25.  1787.*    Ik  Convertiom 

The  1-  clause  of  1  Sect,  of  art:  VII  •  beinp  reconsideied 
Col.  Mason  objected  to  the  term  "  skaU  "— fullfll  the  engage- 
ments &  discharge  the  debta  Ac  aa  too  strong.  It  may  be  impossible 
to  comply  with  it.  The  Creditors  should  be  kept  in  the  same  plight. 
They  will  in  one  respect  be  neceasarUy  and  properly  in  a  better. 
The  Government  will  be  mon  able  to  pi^  them.  The  use  of  the 
term  shall  will  beget  speculations  and  increaae  the  pestilent  practice 
of  stock-jobbing.  There  was  a  great  distinction  between  original 
creditors  &  those  who  purehaaed  fraudulently  of  the  ignorant  and 
distressed.     He  did  not  mean  to  include  those  who  have  bought 

■  The  word  "  It "  is  omitted  Jn  the  tranacript. 
In  the  tniiMript  the  Tot«  read*;  " Cbnncctieii     New  Jmn   P.,.i.n>i~_i. 

ware  South  Carolina,  no— «;  North  Carolina,  abaenT"  "■«»««".   **»• 

'  ^e  letter*  "  OC  "  are  omitted  in  the  tranecript. 
'The  year  "  1787 *•  la  omittwl  in  the  trasMiript. 
See  page  340. 


466      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  COJ^ENTION  OF  1787 

Stock  in  open  market.  He  was  sensible  of  the  difficulty  of  drawing 
the  line  in  this  case,  but  He  did  not  wish  to  preclude  the  attempt 
Even  fair  purchasers  at  4.  5.  6.  8  for  1  did  not  stand  on  the  same 
footing  with*  first  Holders,  supposir^  them  not  to  be  blameable. 
The  interest  they  receive  even  in  paper  is  equal  to  their  purchase 
money.  What  he  particularly  wished  was  to  leave  the  door  open  for 
buying  up  the  securities,  which  he  thought  would  be  precluded  by 
the  term  "  shall  "  as  requiring  nominal  payment,  &  which  was  not 
inconsistent  with  his  ideas  of  public  faith.  He  was  afraid  also  the 
word  shall,  might  extend  to  all  the  old  continental  paper. 

IT.  Lanqdon  wished  to  do  no  more  than  leave  the  Crediton  in 
statu  quo. 

Mr  Gehbt  said  that  for  himsdf  he  had  no  interest  in  the  ques- 
tion being  not  possessed  of  more  of  the  securities  than  would,  by  the 
interest,  pay  his  taxes.  He  would  observe  however  that  as  the  public 
had  received  the  value  of  the  liteval  amount,  they  ought  to  pay  that 
value  to  some  body.  The  frauds  on  the  soldiers  ought  to  have  been 
foreseen.  These  poor  &  ignorant  people  could  not  but  part  with  their 
securities.  There  are  other  creditors  who  will  part  with  any  thing 
rather  than  be  cheated  of  the  capital  of  their  advances.  The  interest 
of  t'  e  States  he  observed  was  different  on  this  point,  some  having 
more,  others  leas  than  their  proportion  of  the  paper.  Hence  the  idea 
of  a  scale  for  reducing  its  value  had  arisen.  If  the  public  faith 
would  admit,  of  which  he  was  not  clear,  he  would  not  object  to  a 
revision  of  the  debt  so  far  as  to  compel  restitution  to  the  ignorant  ft 
distressed,  who  have  been  defrauded.  As  to  Stock-jobbers  he  saw  no 
reason  for  the  censures  thrown  on  them.  They  keep  up  the  value  of 
the  paper.    Without  them  there  would  be  no  market. 

an  BtJTLEB  said  he  meant  neither  to  increase  nor  diminish  the 
security  of  the  creditors. 

W  Randolph  moved  to  postpone  the  clause  in  favor  of  the  M- 
lowing  "  All  debts  contracted  &  engagements  entered  into,  by  w 
under  the  authority  of  Cong?  shall  be  as  valid  agf  the  U.  States 
under  this  constitution  as  under  the  Confederation." 

Doc^  Johnson.  The  debts  are  debts  of  the  U-  S-  of  the  great 
Body  of  America.  Changing  the  Government  can  not  change  the 
obligation  of  the  U-  S-  which  devolves  of  course  on  the  New  Govern- 
ment. Nothing  was  in  his  opinion  necessary  to  be  said.  If  any 
thing,  it  should  be  a  mere  declaration  as  moved  by  W.  Randdph. 

Mr  Govr  Morris,  said  he  never  had  become  a  public  Creditor  that 


'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  SATURDAY,  AUGUST  25,  1787  467 

he  might  urge  with  more  propriety  the  compliance  with  pablie  faith. 
He  had  always  done  so  and  always  would,  and  preferr'd  the  term 
shall  as  most  explicit.  As  to  buying  up  the  debt,  the  term  shall  was 
not  incmuistent  with  it,  if  provision  be  first  made  for  paying  the 
interest :  if  not,  such  an  expedient  was  a  mere  evasion.  He  was  con- 
tent to  say  nothing  as  the  New  Government  would  be  bound  of 
course— but  would  prefer  the  clause  with  the  term  "thaU,  because  it 
would  create  many  friends  to  the  plan. 

On  M^  Randolph's  Motion 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  no  Del.  ay.  Mary*  ay 
Yi  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo  ay.* 

Mr  Shzriiam  thought  it  necessary  to  connect  with  the  clause  for 
laying  taxes  duties  &c  an  express  provision  for  the  object  of  the 
old  debts  &c— and  moved  to  add  to  the  1?  clause  of  If  sect,  art 
Vn  "  for  the  payment  of  said  debts  and  for  the  defrajing  the 
expences  that  shall  be  incurred  for  the  common  defence  and  general 
•j.elfare." 

The  proposition,  as  being  unnecessary  was  disagreed  to,  Con- 
necticnt  alone,  being  in  the  affirmative. 

The  Report  of  the  Committee  of  eleven  [see  friday  the  24«^  in- 
f^tant]  being  taken  up, 

Qeni  PiNKNET  moved  to  strike  out  the  words  "the  year  eighteen 
hundred  "  as  the  year  limiting  the  importation  of  slaves,  and  to 
insert  the  words  "  the  year  eighteen  hundred  and  eight  " 

Mr  Ohoruh  2*?*  the  motion 

W.  Madison.  Twenty  years  will  produce  all  the  mischief  that 
can  be  apprehended  from  the  liberty  to  import  slaves.  So  long  a 
term  will  be  more  dishonorable  to  the  National  *  character  than  to 
say  nothing  about  it  in  the  Constitution. 

On  the  motion ;  which  passed  in  the  affirmative. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P*  no.  Del.  no.  M*  ay.  V»  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

MT  Govt  Morris  was  for  making  the  clause  read  at  once,  "  'im- 
portation of  slaves  into  N.  Carolina,  S.  Carolina  &  Georgia  shell  not 
be  prohibited  &c."  This  he  said  would  be  most  fair  and  would 
avoid  the  ambiguity  by  which,  under  the  power  with  regard  to 

«  x''?  *l!r*  *™?«^Pt  *!>•  vot«  rt*At:  "New  HamptWre.  l^saacliURetta.  Con- 
necticut, New  Jeney,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia.  North  Carolina,  South 
Carolina,  Ceorria,  ay*— 10;  Pennvylrania.  no— 1." 

The  word  "American"  is  aubatitnted  In  the  transcript  for  "National." 
In  the  traniyipt  the  yote  read*:  "  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Con- 
necticut, Maryland,   North   Carolina,   South   Carolina,   Gteorgia,   aye— 7:    New 
Jersey.  Pennsylvania,  Delaware.  Virginia,  no— «." 

The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tran«!ript 


468      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

natnralization,  the  liberty  reserved  to  the  States  might  be  defeated. 
He  wished  it  to  be  known  also  that  this  part  of  the  Constitution 
was  a  compliance  with  those  States.  If  the  change  of  language  how- 
ever should  be  objected  to  by  the  members  from  those  States,  he 
should  not  urge  it. 

Col:  Mason  was  not  against  using  the  term  "  slaves  "  but  ag? 
naming  N.  C.  S.  C.  &  Georgia,  lest  it  should  give  offence  to  the 
people  of  those  States. 

M!  Sherman  liked  a  description  better  than  the  terms  proposed, 
which  had  been  declined  by  the  old  Congf  &  were  not  pleasing  to  some 
people.    M!  Cltmeb  concurred  with  JR  Sherman 

M!  WiLLUMsoN  said  that  both  in  opinion  &  practice  he  was, 
against  slavery;  but  thought  it  more  in  favor  of  humanity,  from  a 
view  of  all  circumstances,  to  let  in  S.  C.  &  Georgia  on  those  terms, 
than  to  exclude  them  from  the  Union. 

W  Gov?  MoBBU  withdrew  his  motion. 

Mt  Dickenson  wished  the  clause  to  be  confined  to  the  States 
which  had  not  themselves  prohibited  the  importation  of  slaves,  and 
for  that  purpose  moved  to  amend  the  clause  so  as  to  read  "  The  im- 
portation of  slaves  into  such  of  the  States  as  shall  permit  the  same 
shall  not  be  prohibited  by  the  Legislature  of  the  U-  S-  until  the  year 
1808  " — ^which  was  disagreed  to  nem:  cont:  • 

The  first  part  of  the  report  was  then  agreed  to,  amended  at 
follows. 

"  The  migration  or  importation  of  such  persons  as  the  several 
States  now  existing  shall  think  proper  to  admit,  shall  not  be  prohibited 
by  tile  Legislature  prior  to  the  year  1808." 

N.H.  Mas.  Con.  M«  N.C.  S.C.  Geo:  ay» 
N.J.  P»  Del.  Virgf no» 

Mr  Baldwin  in  order  to  restrain  &  more  explicitly  define  "  the 
average  duty  "  moved  to  strike  out  of  the  2*  part  the  words  "  aver- 
age of  the  duties  laid  on  imports  "  and  insert  "  common  impost  on 
articles  not  enumerated  "  which  was  agreed  to  nem :  crait: 

W  Sherman  was  ag?  this  21  part,  as  acknowledging  men 
to  be  property,  by  taxing  them  as  such  under  the  character  of 
slaves. 

Mt  Ema  &  W  Langdon  considered  this  as  the  price  of  the  15 
part. 

Gen.'  PiNKNET  admitted  that  it  was  so. 

*  In  the  printed  Journal,  Cont  Vlrg«  ft  Georgia  voted  In  the  affinnatiTe. 

*  The  figure  "  7  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  figure  "  4  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 


u*^^- 


SESSION  OF  SATURDAY,  AUGUST  25,  1787  469 

Col:  Mason.  Not  to  tax,  will  be  equivalent  to  a  bounty  on  the 
importation  of  slaves. 

W  Ghoruh  thought  that  MT  Sherman  should  consider  the  duty, 
not  as  implying  that  slaves  are  property,  but  as  a  discouragement  to 
the  importation  of  them. 

Mr  Oovr  Morris  remarked  that  as  the  clause  now  stands  it  implies 
that  the  Legislature  may  tax  freemen  imported. 

M!  Sherman  in  answer  to  Mr  Ghorum  observed  that  the  small- 
ness  of  the  duty  shewed  revenue  to  be  the  object,  not  the  discourage- 
ment of  the  importation. 

MI  Madison  thought  it  wrong  to  admit  in  the  Constitution  the 
idea  that  there  could  be  property  in  men.  The  reason  of  duties  did 
not  hold,  as  slaves  are  not  like  merchandize,  consumed,  &c 

Col.  Mason  (in  answt  to  (Jovl  Morris)  the  provision  as  it  stands 
was  necessary  for  the  case  of  Convicts  in  order  to  prevent  the  intro- 
duction of  them. 

It  was  finally  agreed  nem:  contrad:  to  make  the  clause  read  "  but 
a  tax  or  duty  may  be  imposed  on  such  importation  not  exceeding  ten 
dollars  for  each  person,"  and  then  the  21  part  as  amended  was 
agreed  to. 

Sect  5.  art  YII  was  agreed  to  nem:  con:  as  reported. 

Sect.  6.  art.  VII.  in  the  Beport,  was  postponed. 

On  motion  of  MT  Madison  2*t*  by  Ml  Govt  Mobbis  Art  VIII* 
was  reconsidered  and  after  the  words  "  all  treaties  made,"  were  in- 
serted nem:  con:  the  words  "  or  which  shall  be  made  "  This  inser- 
tion was  meant  to  obviate  all  doubt  concerning  the  force  of  treaties 
preexisting,  by  making  the  words  "  all  treaties  made  "  to  refer  to 
them,  as  the  words  inserted  would  refer  to  future  treaties. 

MT  Carrol  &  Mt  L.  Martin  expressed  their  apprehensions,  and 
the  probable  apprehensions  of  their  constituents,  that  under  the 
power  of  regulating  trade  the  General  Legislature,  might  favor  the 
ports  of  particular  States,  by  requiring  vessels  destined  to  or  from 
other  States  to  enter  &  clear  thereat,  as  vessels  belonging  or  bound  to 
Baltimore,  to  enter  &  clear  at  Norfolk  &c  They  moved  the  follow- 
ing proposition 

' '  The  Legislature  of  the  U :  S :  shall  not  oblige  vessels  belonging  to 
citizens  thereof,  or  to  foreigners,  to  enter  or  pay  duties  or  imposts 
in  any  other  State  than  in  that  to  which  they  may  be  bound,  or  to 
dear  out  in  any  other  than  the  State  in  which  their  cargoes  may  be 
laden  on  board;  nor  shall  any  privilege  or  immunity  be  granted  to 


'  See  page  342. 


470      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

any  vessels  on  entering  or  clearing  out,  or  paying  duties  or  imposts  in 
one  State  in  preference  to  another  " 

Mr  Ghorum  thought  such  a  precaution  unnecessary;  &  that  the 
revenue  might  be  defeated,  if  vessels  could  run  up  long  rivers,  through 
tlie  jurisdiction  of  different  States  without  being  required  to  enter, 
with  the  opportunity  of  landing  &  gelling  their  cargoes  by  the  way. 

Mt  M'Henrt  &  Gea»  Pinknet  made  the  following  propositions 

"  Should  it  be  judged  expedient  by  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S. 
that  one  or  more  ports  for  collecting  duties  or  imposts  other  than 
those  ports  of  entrance  &  clearance  already  established  by  the  re- 
spective States,  should  be  established,  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S. 
shall  signify  the  same  to  the  Executives  of  the  respective  States, 
ascertaining  the  number  of  such  ports  judged  necessary ;  to  be  laid 
by  the  said  Executives  before  the  Legislatures  of  the  States  at  their 
next  Session;  and  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  shall  not  have  the 
power  of  fixing  or  establishing  the  particular  ports  for  collecting 
duties  or  imposts  in  any  State,  except  the  Legislature  of  such  State 
shall  neglect  to  fix  and  establish  the  same  during  their  first  session 
to  be  held  after  such  notification  by  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  8.  to 
the  Executive  of  such  State  " 

"All  c'  ■  1  imposts  &  excises,  prohibitions  or  restraints  laid  or 
made  by  r  jegislature  of  the  U.  S.  shall  be  uniform  &  equal 
throughout  the  U.  S." 

These  several  propositions  were  referred,  nem:  con:  to  a  Com- 
mittee composed  of  member  from  each  State.  The  committee  ap- 
pointed by  ballot  were  Mf  Langdon,  Mr  Ghorum,  Mr  Sherman,  Mi 
Dayton,  M?  Fitzimmons,  W.  Read,  M'.  Carrol,  M:  Mason,  Mi  Wil- 
liamson. M?  Butler,  MI  Few. 

On  The  question  now  taken  on  Mr  Dickinson  motion  of  yesterday, 
allowing  appoi'jtments  to  offices,  to  be  referred  by  the  Gen.'  Legisla- 
ture to  the  Executives  of  the  Several  States  "  as  a  farther  amendment 
to  sect.  2,  art.  X.  the  votes  were, 

N.  H.  no.    Mas.  no.    C!  ay.    PJ  no.    Del.  no.    M*  divided.    V?  ay. 


other  public  Ministers  " 


N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.> 

In  amendment  of  the  same  sect' 
were  inserted  after  "  ambassadors." 

Mr  Govt  Morris  moved  to  strike  out  of  the  section—"  and  may 
correspond  with  the  supreme  Executives  of  the  several  States  "  as 


'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Virginia,  Georgia,  are— 3; 
Aew  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  North  Carolina. 'South 
Carolina,  no — 6;  Maryland,  divided." 

"  The  expression  "  the  words  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tranacript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  27,  1787 


471 


unnecessary  and  implying  that  he  could  not  correspond  with  others. 
Mr  Broome  2^  him. 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  CJ  ay.  F*.  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  no.  V!  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

'"  Shall  receive  ambassadors  &  other  public  Ministers,"'  agreed 
to,  nem.  con. 

Mt  Sherman  moved  to  amend  the  "  power  to  grant  reprieves  & 
pardon  *  "  so  as  to  read  "  to  grant  reprieves  nntil  the  ensuing  session 
of  the  Senate,  and  pardons  with  consent  of  the  Senate." 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CJ  ay.  Pf  no  M*?  no.  V?  no.  N.  C.  no. 
S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

•"  except  in  cases  of  impeachment  "^  inserted  nem:  con:  after 
"pardon"* 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  — "  but  his  pardon  shall  not  be 
pleadable  in  bar  "• 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  C.*  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  W  ay.  V?  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

Adjourned. 


><'/"■■] 


Monday  Aug"  27Th  1787.»»    In  Convention 


Art  X.  Sect.  2.*^  being  resumed. 

i/P  L.  Martin  moved  to  insert  the  words  "  after  conviction  " 
after  the  words  "  reprieves  and  pardons  " 

Mr  WTiLSON  objected  that  pardon  before  conviction  might  be 
necessary  in  order  to  obtain  the  testimony  of  accomplices.    He  stated 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Con- 
necticut, Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye — ^9;  Maryland,  bo— 1." 

'  The  words  "  The  clause  "  are  here  inserted  'n  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  transcript  uses  the  word  "  pardon  "  in  the  plural. 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  Connecticut,  aye — 1 ;  New  Hampshire, 
Massachusetts,  Pennsvlvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Caro- 
lina, Georgia,  no — 8.'^ 

*  The  expression  "  the  words  "  is  here  inserti-d  in  the  transcript. 
'  The  word  "  were  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  phrase  "  It  passed  in  the  negative  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
•In   the   transcript   the   vote   reads:    "New   Hampshire,   Maryland,   North 

Carolina,   South   Carolina,   aye— 4;    Massachusetts,   Connecticut,   Pennsylvania, 
Delaware,  Virginia,  Georgia,  no— 6." 

"  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

"See  page  343. 


472      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

the  caae  of  forgerie«  in  which  thia  might  particularly  happen.— liD 
L.  Martin  withdrew  his  motion. 

M'.  Sherman  moved  to  amend  the  clause  giving  the  Executive  the 
command  of  the  Militia,  so  as  to  read  "and  of  the  Militia  of  the 
several  States,  when  called  into  the  actual  service  of  the  V.  8."  and 
on  the  Question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  abs'  CJ  ay.  N.  J.  abs?  P«  ay.  Del.  no.  Ml  ay 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  abs*    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

The  clause  for  removing  the  President  on  impeachment  by  the 
House  of  Bep!  and  conviction  in  the  supreme  Court,  of  Treason, 
Bribery  or  corruption,  was  postponed  nem:  con:  at  the  instance  of 
Mt  Govt  Mori.us,  who  thought  the  Tribunal  an  improper  one,  particu- 
larly, if  the  first  judge  was  to  be  of  the  privy  Council. 

W.  Gov:  Morris  objected  also  to  the  President  of  the  Senate  being 
provisional  successor  to  the  President,  and  suggested  a  designation 
of  the  Chief  Justice. 

Mt  Madison  added  as  a  ground  of  objection  that  the  Senate  mi^t 
retard  the  appointment  of  a  President  in  order  to  carry  points  whilst 
the  revisionary  power  was  in  the  President  of  their  own  body,  but 
suggested  that  the  Executive  powers  during  a  vacancy,  be  admin- 
istered by  the  persons  composing  the  Council  to  the  President. 

Mf  WiLUAMsoN  suggested  that  the  Legislature  ought  to  have 
power  to  provide  for  occasional  successors  &  moved  that  the  last 
clause  [of  2  sect.  X  art:]  relating  to  a  provisional  successor  to  the 
President  be  postponed. 

Mi  Dickinson  2'^  the  postponement,  remarking  that  it  was  too 
vague.  What  is  the  extent  of  the  term  "  disability  "  &  who  is  to  be 
the  judge  of  itt 

The  postponement  was  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

Col:  Mason  &  Mr  Madison,  moved  to  add  to  the  oath  to  be  taken 
by  the  supreme  Executive  "  and  will  to  the  best  of  my  judgment 
and  power  preserve  protect  and  defend  the  Constitution  of  the  U.  S." 

Mr  Wilson  thought  the  general  provision  for  oaths  of  oflBce,  in  a 
subsequent  place,  rendered  the  amendmen.  unnecessary— 

On  the  question 


N.  H.  ay.    Mas.  abs^    C?  ay. 
N.  C.  abst    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 


P?  ay.    Del.  no.    M?  ay.    V? 


ay. 


„lv«^«  ^v.i?""?"?:'  **'^''°t?  "••«?»•  "New  Hamp.hire,  Connecticut.  Penn- 
^2  M««I.f  ♦♦  '  J"*"?'"'  ^'T%  ^y^"'  Delaware,  South  Carolina,  no 
— 2;  MasBachuscttg,  New  Jereey,  North  Carolina,  absent." 

In  the  tranncript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Penniyl- 
vania  Marj-Iand,  Virprinia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye-7;  DeUware,  io, 
Massaehuaetts,  New  J.  r»ey,  North  Carolina,  absent."  "«»w»re,   n». 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  27,  1787  478 

Art:  XI.'  being*  taken  ap. 

Doc!  Johnson  suggeited  that  the  judicial  power  ou^t  to  extend 
to  equity  aa  well  aa  law— and  moved  to  inaert  the  words  "  both  in 
law  and  equity  "  after  the  words  "  U.  S."  in  the  1«  Mm,  of  sect.  1. 

Mt  Read  objected  to  vesting  these  powers  in  the  same  Court. 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  absent.  Cay.  N.  J.  abs!  P.  ay.  Del.no.  Ml  no. 
Virg?  ay.    N.  C.  abs^    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  Sect.  1.  art  XI.  as  amended.* 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  abs?  C\  ay.  P?  ay.  N.  J.  aba*  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  abs!    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay. 

MT  Dickinson  moved  as  an  amendment  to  sect.  2.  art  XI  >  after 
the  words  "  good  behavior  "  the  words  "  provided  that  they  may 
be  removed  by  the  Executive  on  the  application  by  the  Senate  and 
House  of  Representatives." 

HP  OratBT  2^  the  motion 

Mr  Govt  MoRBiB  thou^t  it  a  contradiction  in  terms  to  say  that 
the  Judges  should  hold  their  <^ces  during  good  behavior,  and  yet  be 
removeable  without  a  trial.  Besides  it  was  fundamentally  wrong  to 
subject  Judges  to  so  arbitrary  an  authority. 

Mr  Shxkman  saw  no  contradiction  or  impropriety  if  this  were 
made  part  of  the  constitutional  regulation  of  tiie  Judiciary  establish- 
ment. He  observed  that  a  like  provision  was  contained  in  the 
British  Statutes. 

Ml  RuTLTOGK.  If  the  Supreme  Court  is  to  Judge  between  the 
U.  S.  and  particular  States,  this  alone  is  an  insuperable  objection  to 
the  motion. 

HP  Wilson  considered  such  a  provision  in  the  British  Govern- 
ment  as  less  dangerous  than  here,  the  House  of  Lords  &  House  of 
Commons  being  less  likely  to  concur  on  the  same  occasions.  Chief 
Justice  Holt,  he  remarked,  had  succetrively  offended  by  his  inde- 
pendent conduct,  both  houses  of  Parliament.  Had  this  happened  at 
the  same  time,  he  would  have  been  ousted.  The  Judges  would  be  in 
a  bad  situation  if  made  to  depend  on  eveiy '  gust  of  faction  which 
might  prevail  in  the  two  branches  of  our  Govf 


'  See  page  344. 

"  The  word  "  next "  is  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Pennsyl- 
vania, VirginU,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— «;  Delaware.  Maryland,  no— 2; 
Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  North  Carolina,  absent." 

*  The  transcript  here  inserts  the  following:  "  the  States  were  the  same  as  on 
the  preceding  question."    The  vote  by  States  is  omitted. 

•  The  word  "  any  "  ia  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  every." 


474     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

W.  Randolph  oppowd  the  motion  as  weakening  too  much  the  in. 
dependence  of  the  Judges. 

Ml  Dickinson  was  not  apprehensive  that  the  Legislature  com- 
posed  of  different  branches  constructed  on  such  different  principles, 
would  improperly  unite  for  the  purpose  of  displacing  a  Judge. 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  MT  Dickinson's  Motion  * 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  abs.'  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  abs.'  Pt  no.  Del.  no.  M?  no 
V?  na    N.  C.  abs?    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no. 

On  the  question  on  Sect.  2.  art:  XI  as  reported.  Del  &  Maryfl 
only  no. 

M!  Madison  and  M^  MtHsNRT  moved  to  reinstate  the  words  "  in- 
creased or  "  before  the  word  "  diminished  "  in  the  2*  sect,  art  XI. 

Mr  Govr  Morris  opposed  it  for  reasons  urged  by  him  on  a  former 
occasion — 

Col:  Mason  contended  strenuously  for  the  motion.  There  was  no 
weight  he  said  in  the  argument  drawn  from  changes  in  the  value  of 
the  metals,  because  this  mi^t  be  provided  for  by  an  increase 
of  salaries  so  made  as  not  to  affect  persons  in  office,  and  this 
was  the  only  argument  on  which  much  stress  seemed  to  have  been 
laid. 

Gen.'  PiNKNET.  The  importance  of  the  Judiciary  will  require 
men  of  the  first  talents:  large  salaries  wiU  therefore  be  neceswiry, 
larger  than  the  U.  S.  can  aUow »  in  the  first  instance.  He  was  not 
satisfied  with  the  expedient  mentioned  by  Col:  Mason.  He  did  not 
think  it  would  have  a  good  effect  or  a  good  appearance,  for  new 
Judges  to  come  in  with  higher  salaries  than  the  old  ones. 

M:  Gov'.  Morris  said  the  expedient  might  be  evaded  ft  therefore 
amounted  to  nothing.  Judges  might  resign,  and  then  be  re-appointed 
to  increased  salaries. 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  no.  C*  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  diVl  Vf  ay.  S.  C.  no. 
Geo.  absl  also  Mas'!  N.  J.  &  N.  C.» 

Mt  Randolph  &  Ml  Madison  then  moved  to  add  the  following 
words  to  sect.  2.  art  XI.  "  nor  increased  by  any  Act  of  the  Legis- 
lature which  shall  operate  before  the  expiration  of  three  years  after 
the  passing  thereof  " 

On  this  question 


^  .™    .n  *u   '?u*  here  insert,  the  following:   "it  wa«  ne«tived,  Connecti- 
cut, aye;  all  the  other  States  present,  no."    The  vote  bv  States  Is  omitted. 

The  word  "afford"  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "allow." 
r„        ?•  *"*"  t'"»'»cf >Pt  the  vote  reads:   "Virginia,  aye— 1 ;   New   Hampshire, 
Connecticut   Penn-ylvania.  Delaware,  South  Carolina,  ni-5;  MarytandTdiylded 
Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  North  Carolina,  Georgia   absent " 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  AUGUST  27,  1787 


475 


N.  H.  no.  C!  no.  P»  no.  Del.  no.  M«  ay.  VJ  ay.  S.  C.  no. 
Geo.  abst  also  Mas.  N.  J.  ft  N.  C.^ 

Sect.  3.  art.  XI '  being  taken  op,  the  following  clauae  was  post- 
poned-viz.  "to  the  trial  of  impeachmenta  of  oiBcen  of  the  U.  S." 
by  which  the  jurisdiction  of  the  supreme  Court  was  extended  to 
such  cases. 

W  Madison  ft  Mt  Oovf  Morris  moved  to  insert  after  the  word 
"  controversies  "  the  words  "  to  which  the  U.  S.  shall  be  a  party." 
which  was  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

Docf  Johnson  moved  to  insert  the  words  "  this  Constitution 
and  the  "  before  the  word  "  laws  " 

W.  Madison  doubted  whether  it  was  not  going  too  far  to  extend 
the  jurisdiction  of  the  Court  generally  to  cases  arising  under  the 
Constitution  ft  whether  it  ought  not  to  be  limited  to  cases  of  a 
Judiciary  Nature.  The  right  of  expotinding  the  Constitution  in 
cases  not  of  this  nature  ought  not  to  be  given  to  that  Department. 

The  motion  of  Doer  Johnson  was  agreed  to  nem :  con :  it  being  gen- 
erally supposed  that  the  jurisdiction  given  was  constructively  limited 
to  cases  of  a  Judiciary  nature. 

On  motion  of  Mi  Rtttlidoe  the  words  "  passed  by  the  Legisla- 
ture "  were  struck  out,  and  after  the  words  "  U.  S  "  were  inserted 
nem.  con;  the  words  "  and  treaties  made  or  which  shall  be  made 
under  their  authority  "  conformably  to  a  preceding  amendment  in 
another  place. 

The  clause  "  in  cases  of  impeaAment,"  waa  postponed. 

W-  Qav'.  MosBiB  wished  to  know  what  was  meant  by  the  words 
"  In  all  the  casea  before  mentioned  it  [jnrsdietion]  shall  be  appellate 
with  such  exceptions  ftc,"  whether  it  extended  to  matters  of  fact  aa 
well  as  law — and  to  caaea  of  Common  law  as  well  as  Civil  law. 

MT  Wilson.  The  Committee  he  believed  meant  facts  as  well  aa 
law  &  Common  as  well  as  Civil  law.  The  jurisdietion  of  the  federal 
Court  of  Appeals  had  he  said  been  so  eonstrued. 

Mr  Dickinson  moved  to  add  after  the  word  "  appellate  "  the 
words  both  aa  to  law  ft  fact  which  was  agreed  to  nem :  con : 

M^  Madison  ft  W  OovS  Morsib  moved  to  strike  out  the  beginning 
of  the  3^  sect.  "  The  jurisdiction  of  the  supreme  Court  "  ft  to  insert 
the  words  "  the  Judicial  power  "  which  was  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

The  following  motion  was  disagreed  to,  to  wit  to  insert  "  In  all 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  re*df:  "Maryland,  Virginia,  aye — 2;  New 
Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  South  Carolina,  no— 6;  MasiS- 
chusetts,  New  Jersey,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  sbaent." 

'  See  page  344. 


.irl 


.-..{■ 


«     i 


476     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

the  other  caaea  before  mentioned  the  Judicial  power  ahall  be  ezereiaed 
in  auch  manner  aa  the  Legialature  shall  direct  "     Del.  Virg?  ay» 

N.  H    Con.    P.    M.    8.  C.    Ono« 
On  a  question  for  striking  out  the  last  aentence  of  aect.  3.    "  The 
Legialature  may  aaaign  Ac." ' 

N.  H.  ay.  C!  ay.  Pr  ay.  Del.  ay.  Mf  ay.  V?  ay.  8.  C  ay 
Geo.  ay.*  * 

Mr  Shebiiaw  moved  to  insert  after  the  worda  "  between  Citizens 
of  different  States  "  the  worda,  "  between  Citizens  of  the  same 
State  claiming  lands  under  granU  of  different  States  "—according 
to  the  provision  in  the  9*  Art:  of  the  Confederation— which  waa 
agreed  to  nem :  con ; 

Adjoamsd 


Tdisdat  Auocot  28.  1787.»    In  Contdition 

m  SHEBif AN  from  the  Committee  to  whom  were  referred  aevertl 
propositions  on  the  25?"  instant,  made  the  following  report—* 

That  there  be  insert«d  after  the  4  claoae  of '  7!*  section 

"  Nor  shall  any  regnlatiim  of  commerce  or  revenue  give  prefer- 
ence to  the  ports  of  one  SUte  over  those  of  another,  or  oblige  vessels 
bound  to  or  from  any  State  to  enter,  clear  or  pay  duties  in  another  and 
all  tonnage,  duties,  imposts  &  excises  laid  by  the  Legislature  ahall 
be  uniform  throughout  the  U.  S." 

Ordered  to  lie  on  the  table.* 

Art  XI  Sect.  3  •  "  It  waa  moved  to  strike  out  the  worda  "  it  ahall 
be  appellate  "  &  to  incert  the  worda  "  the  aupreme  Court  shaU  have 
appellate  jurisdiction,  —in  order  to  prevent  uncertainty  whether 
'  it  "  referred  to  the  supreme  Court,  or  to  the  Judicial  power. 

On  the  question 

N.  H  ay.  Mas.  ay.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  abs!  P«  ay.  Dd.  ay.  M?  no. 
V^  ay.    N  C  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay." 


The  figure  "2"  is  here  inaerted  in  the  tranKript. 

The  figure  "6"  U  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 

The  phraae  "it  pasMd  nem.  con."  \»  here  added  in  the  tranwript 
'The  vote  by  SUtes  ii  omitted  in  the  transcript.  ^ 

.  TJ^  -^l"  "  '"^  "  '*  ""'tted  !n  the  tr«n»cript. 
the  tran^rlj"**  ""'"'"''  '*'  "^'^  *°  ""  °°  *•"•  **»''•'"  »"  •>««  •«»<5«»  « 
'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 

This  sentence  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 
•  See  page  344.  "^ 

■■?n'"thT«^*  "lieing  considered"  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:   "New  Hampshire    Massachusetts    Con 
nect^ut.    Pennsylvania.    Delaware,    Virginia.    North    Cai^UnrScS^H^ 
Georgia,  aye— u;  Maryland,  no— Ij  New  Jersey,  absent."  t^roiina. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  28,  1787  iTJ 

S«et.  4.*  WM  w  amended  nem:  con:  m  to  read  "  The  trial  of  all 
crimes  (except  in  caaea  of  impeaehment)  ahall  be  by  jury,  and  aaeh 
trial  ahall  be  held  in  the  SUte  where  the  aaid  erimea  ahall  have  been 
committed ;  bat  when  not  committed  within  any  State,  then  the  trial 
shall  be  at  auch  place  or  places  aa  the  Lesialature  may  direct."  The 
object  of  thia  amendment  waa  to  proride  for  trial  by  jury  of  offences 
committed  oat  of  any  State. 

M?  PiNENET,  urging  the  propriety  of  secaring  the  benefit  of  the 
Habeas  corpas  in  the  moat  ample  manner,  moved  "  that  it  should  not 
be  suspended  but  on  the  moat  argent  oecaaiona,  A  then  only  for  a 
limited  time,  not  exceeding  twdve  montha  " 

M:  Rutudob  waa  for  declaring  the  Habeas  Corpus  inviolable.' 
He  did  not  conceive  that  a  suspension  could  ever  be  necessary  at  the 
same  time  through  all  the  Statea. 

Mr  Govt  Mouua  moved  that  "  The  privilege  of  the  writ  of  Habeas 
Corpus  shall  not  be  suspended;  unleas  where  in  caaea  of  Bebellion 
or  invaaion  the  public  safety  may  require  it" 

M:  Wiiaon  doubted  whether  in  any  case  a  auspension  could  be 
necessary,  as  the  discretion  now  exists  with  Judges,  in  most  important 
cases  to  keep  in  Oaol  or  admit  to  Bail. 

The  first  part  of  Mr  Oov^  Morris'  motion,  to  the  word  "  unless  " 
was  agreed  to  nem :  con : — on  the  remaining  part ; 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C*  ay.  Pf  ay.  Del.  ay.  W  ay.  V»  ay. 
N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no. :  • 

Sec.  5.  of  art:  XI.»  was  agreed  to  item;  con:  • 

Art:  XII.*  being*  taken  up. 

Mr  Wilson  &  Ml  Sherman  moved  to  insert  after  the  words  "  coin 
money  "  the  words  "  nor  emit  bills  of  credit,  nor  make  any  thing 
but  gold  &  silver  coin  a  tender  in  payment  of  debts  "  making  these 
prohibitions  absolute,  instead  of  making  the  measures  allowable  (aa 
in  the  XIII  art:)  tvith  the  content  of  the  Legislature  of  the  V.  8. 

Jn  Ghorum  thought  the  purpose  would  be  as  well  secured  by  the 
provision  of  art :  XIII  which  makes  the  consent  of  the  Gea'  Legis- 
lature necessary,  and  that  in  that  mode,  no  opposition  would  be 

"The  vote  on  thii  tectlon  ••  lUtcd  in  the  printed  Journal  ii  not  unmnimouc 
the  lUteraent  here  U  probably  the  right  one. 


■  See  page  344. 

!  Th«  word  "  inviolate  "  is  ■nbatitnted  in  the  transcript  for  "  inviolable  " 
r,^t    »    D    *''*?'^""'.Pt  tj"*  »«>*«  retif.  "New  Hampehire.  Masiachusett*.  Con- 

S"r;™H„7^":^a.°S^7'  '^'"'"''  '''"^"^-  '^''  *'°'*''  ^«'»'-' 

*  The  word  "  then  "  U  here  ineerted  in  the  tranecript. 


478     DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

excited;  whereu  an  absolute  prohibition  of  paper  monay  woild 
route  the  moat  deiperatv  oppoaition  from  its  partiuuia. 

iV.  SinaiiiAN  thought  thia  a  favorable  critia  for  crushing  papar 
money.  If  the  conaent  of  the  Legialature  could  authoriae  emisaiona 
of  it,  the  friends  of  paper  money,  would  make  every  exertion  to  get 
into  the  Legislature  in  order  to  licence  it. 

The  question  being  divided;  on  the  l!*  part—"  nor  emit  billa  of 
credit  " 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M<  div^  V?  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 

The  remaining  part  of  Mt  Wilson's  A  Sherman's  motion  was 
agreed  to  nem :  con : 

MT  Kino  moved  to  add,  in  the  wcrda  uaed  in  the  Ordinance  of 
Cong?  establishing  new  Statea,  a  prohibition  on  the  States  to  interfere 
in  private  contracta. 

IV  Oov?  Morris.  Thia  would  be  going  too  far.  There  are  a 
thousand  laws,  relating  to  bringing  actions— limitations  of  actions 
&  •  which  affect  contracts.  The  Judicial  power  of  the  U.  S.  will  be  a 
protection  in  caaes  within  their  jurisdiction;  and  within  the  State 
itself  a  majority  muat  rule,  whatever  may  be  the  mischief  done  among 
themselves. 

M5  Shsiuan.    Why  then  prohibit  bills  of  credit t 

W.  WiusoN  waa  in  favor  of  Mt  King's  motion. 

Ml  Madison  admitted  that  inconveniences  might  arise  from  such 
a  prohibition  but  thought  on  the  whole  it  would  be  overbalanced  by 
the  utility  of  it.  He  conceived  however  that  a  negative  on  the  State 
laws  could  alone  secure  the  etiect.  Evaaiona  might  and  would  be 
devised  by  the  ingenuity  of '  Legislatures. 

Col :  Mason.  This  is  carrying  the  restraint  too  far.  Caaes  will 
hllppen  that  can  not  be  foreseen,  wherv  some  kind  of  interference  will 
be  proper  &  essential.  He  mentioned  the  case  of  limiting  the  period 
for  bringing  actions  on  open  account — that  of  bonds  after  a  certain 
lapse  of  time — asking  whether  it  was  proper  to  tie  the  hands  of  the 
States  from  making  provision  in  such  cases? 

M^  Wilson.  The  answer  to  these  objections  is  that  retrospective  * 
interferences »  only  are  to  be  prohibited. 


'In  the  tranacript  the  vot*  reads:  "New  Hampshiro,  Maiiarhuaetta,  Con- 
necticut, Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  North  Carolina,  .South  Carolina,  Georgia, 
aye— 8;  Vir|^nia,  no— 1;  Maryland,  divided." 

•  The  character  "  &  "  ia  changed  in  the  tranacript  to  "  te." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  ii  i.cro  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  tranacript  does  not  italicise  the  word  "  reirotpeotivt." 
'  The  transcript  italicizes  the  word  "  inferences." 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  AUGUST  28,  1787  47» 

Mr  Maouon.  Ii  not  that  almdy  done  by  the  prohibition  of  ex 
port  facto  Uwi,  which  will  obli|«  the  Jodgea  to  declare  rach  inter- 
ferencea  nail  A  void. 

M'.  Rctudoe  moved  instead  of  Mr  Kinff'i  Motion  to  iwert— "  nor 
pafti  bill*  of  atUinder  nor  retrotpeotive  •  lawa  "  on  which  motion 

xr  .^-  "•  "I*  rF  "**•    '*•  ^-  •^'    ^  ^y-    ^'-  -y-    Ml  no.    Virg?  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

M'  Madwon  moved  to  inwrt  after  the  word  "  reprisal  "  (art. 
XII)  the  wordi  "  nor  lay  embargoei."  He  urged  that  iocb  acta 
hy  the  States  would  be  unneceasary— impolitic— and  unjust. 

in  Shekman  thought  the  States  ought  to  retain  this  power  in 
order  to  prevent  roffering  ft  injury  to  their  poor. 

Col:  Mabok  thought  the  amendment  would  be  not  only  improper 
but  dangerouB.  as  the  Gen.'  Legidature  would  not  sit  consUnUy  and 
th.rpfore  could  not  interpose  at  the  necessary  moments.  He  en- 
forced  his  objection  by  appealing  to  the  necessity  of  sadden  em- 
bargoeg  during  the  war,  to  prevent  exporta,  particularly  in  the  case  of 
a  blockade. 

•M:  Govt  Moaan  considered  the  provision  as  nnecessary;  the 
power  of  regulating  trade  between  Sute  ft  State  already  vested  in 
the  Gen!  Legislature,  being  sulHcient. 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  no.    Maa.  ay.    CI  no.    N.  J.  no.    K  no.    Del  ay.    M^  no 
V»  no.   N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

Jn  Madisok  moved  that  the  words  "  nor  lay  imposU  or  duties  on 
imports  "  be  transferred  from  art:  XIII  where  the  consent  of  the 
Gen.  Legialature  may  licence  the  act-into  art:  XII  which  will  make 
the  prohibition  on  the  States  absolute.  He  observed  that  as  the 
States  mtererted  in  this  power  by  which  they  could  tax  the  imports 
of  their  neighbors  passing  thro'  their  mariceta,  were  a  majority,  they 
could  give  the  consent  of  the  Legislature,  to  the  injury  of  N  Jersey 
N.  Carolina  ftc- 

in  WiLLUMSON  2*?"  the  motion 

Mr  Sherman  thought  the  power  might  safely  be  left  to  the  Lems- 
lature  of  the  U.  States. 

Col:  Mason,  observed  that  particular  States  might  wish  to  encour- 

•  In  the  printed  Journal—"  ex  poet  facto." 


'In  the  tranacript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hamrahire    Wpw  Tcmm    i>— ^> 
Cv\S'viV^-„ir„lS^''"'  «»-"'  Caro.in.'T-r^.^rJTOnr^i: 

^  ti^SlM^  ^:^nUtSi?^-:r;*:;y!ls.7ivK''  ^^. 

land.  \  irginim  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— «.'•  '       wuuyiTawa,  Mary 


480      DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


age  by  import  ^  duties  certain  manafacttires  for  which  they  enjoyed 
natural  advantages,  as  Virginia,  the  manufacture  of  Hemp  &c. 

W  Madison.  The  encouragement  of  Manufactures  in  that  mode 
requires  duties  not  only  on  imports  directly  from  foreign  Countries, 
but  from  the  other  States  in  the  Union,  which  would  revive  all  the 
mischiefs  experienced  from  the  want  of  a  Oea'  Oovemment  over 
commerce. 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  Ct  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del:  ay.  Ml  no. 
Vr  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

Art :  XII  as  amended '  agreed  to  nem :  con : 

Art :  XIII  *  being '  taken  up.  M^  Kino  moved  to  insert  after  the 
word  "  imports  "  the  words  "  or  exports  "  so  as  to  prohibit  the 
states  from  taxing  either, — & 

On  this  question  it  passed  in  the  affirmative. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C?  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P.  ay.  Del.  ay.  HIP.  no. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.« 

W  Sherman  moved  to  add  after  the  word  "  exports  " — ^the 
words  "  nor  with  such  consent  but  for  the  use  of  the  U.  S." — so  as 
to  carry  the  proceeds  of  all  State  duties  on  imports  & '  exports,  into 
the  common  Treasury. 

Ml  Madison  liked  the  motion  as  preventing  all  State  imposts — 
but  '  imented  the  complexity  we  were  giving  to  the  commercial 
system. 

Ml  Gov!  Morris  thought  the  regulation  necessary  to  prevent  the 
Atlantic  States  from  endeavoring  to  tax  the  Western  States — &  pro- 
mote their  interest  by  opposing  the  navigation  of  the  Mississippi 
wlu.;h  would  drive  the  Western  people  into  the  arms  of  G.  Britain. 

M!  CiiTHER  thought  the  encouragement  of  the  Western  Country 
was  suicide  on*  the  old  States.  If  the  States  have  such  different 
interests  that  they  can  not  be  left  to  regulate  their  own  manufactures 
without  encountering  the  interests  of  other  Staters,  it  is  a  proof  that 
they  are  not  fit  to  compose  one  nation. 


'  The  word  "  impost "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  import." 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  New  Hampshire,  New  Jersey,  Delaware, 

North  Carolina,  aye— 4;   Massachusetts,   Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Uaryland, 

Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 7." 

*  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  See  page  344. 

•The  words  "was  the"  «  J  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "being." 

*  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Masaechuaetts,  New 
Jersey,  Pennsylvania.  Delaware,  North  Carolina,  aye— 6;  Connecticut,  Maryland, 
Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 5." 

*  The  word  "  or  "  is  substituted  for  "  &  "  in  the  transcript. 
■The  words  "the  ^art  of"  are  here  inserted  in  the  tranacript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  29,  1787         481 

JB  Kino  was  afraid  that  the  regnlation  moved  by  W  Sheiroan 
would  too  much  interfere  with  a  policy  of  States  respecting  jeir 
manufactures,  which  may  be  necessary.  Revenue  he  reminded  ♦he 
House  was  the  object  of  the  general  Legislature. 

On  Ml  Sherman's  motion 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  G  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pi  ay.  Del.  ay.  Mi  no. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

Art  XIII  was  then  agreed  to  as  amended. 

Art  XIV  *  was » taken  up. 

Gen.'  PiNKNET  was  not  satisfied  with  it.  He  seemed  to  wish  s<nne 
provision  should  be  included  in  favor  of  property  in  slaves. 

On  the  question  on  Art:  XIV. 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  ay.  Del.  ay.  M?  ay. 
^^  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  divided.* 

Art:  XV.»  being  taken  up,  the  words  "  high  misdemeanor,"  were 
struck  out,  and  »  "  other  crime  "  inserted,  in  order  to  comprehend  all 
proper  cases:  it  being  doubtful  whether  "  high  misdemeanor  "  had 
not  a  technical  meaning  too  limited. 

M'.  BuTLEB  and  M^  Pinknet  moved  "  to  require  fugitive  slaves 
and  servants  to  be  delivered  up  like  criminals." 

m  WiusoN.  This  would  oblige  the  Executive  of  the  State  to  do 
it  at  the  public  ezpence. 

Mt  Sherman  saw  no  more  propriety  in  the  public  seizing  and 
surrendering  a  slave  or  servant,  than  a  horse. 

Mr  Bdtleb  withdrew  his  proposition  in  order  that  some  particular 
provision  might  be  made  apart  from  this  article. 

Art  XV  as  amended  was  then  agreed  to  nem :  con : 
Adjourned 


Wedneeidat  Atjoust  29Th  1787.*   In  Convention 
Art:  XVI.*'-  taken  up. 
M?  ^nxiAMBON  moved  to  substitute  in  place  of  it,  the  words 


'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reada:  "New  Hampihire,  Connecticut,  New  Jer- 
fpy,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  VirginU,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Oeorria. 
aye— 9;  Massachugettg,  Maryland,  no— 2." 

'  See  page  345. 

•  The  word  "  then  "  la  here  Innrted  In  the  transcript. 

*In  tlie  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Con- 
nwticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Vireinia,  North  Caro- 
Jwa.  ^[f— »;  South  Carolina,  no— 1;  Georgia,  divided." 

'  The  expression  "  the  words  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  word  "being"  is  here  inserted  In  the  transcript. 


482      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

of  the  Articles  of  Confederation  on  the  same  subject.    He  did  not 
understand  precisely  the  meaning  of  the  article. 

Mf  Wilson  &  Doc!  Johnson  supposed  the  meaning  to  be  that 
Judgments  in  one  State  should  be  the  ground  of  actions  in  other 
States,  &  that  acts  of  the  Legislatures  should  be  included,  for  the 
sake  of  Acts  of  insolvency  &c. 

M;  Pinknet  moved  to  commit  art  XVI,  with  the  following  prop- 
osition, "  To  establish  uniform  laws  upon  the  subject  of  bankruptcies, 
and  respecting  the  damages  arising  on  the  protest  of  foreign  bills  of 
exchange  " 

M^  Ohobuh  was  for  agreeing  to  the  article,  and  committing  the 
proposition. 

AT.  Madison  was  for  committing  both.  He  wished  the  Legislature 
might  be  authorized  to  provide  for  the  execution  of  Judgments  in 
other  States,  under  su 'h  regulations  as  might  le  expedient.  He 
thought  that  this  might  be  safely  done,  and  was  justified  by  the 
nature  of  the  Union. 

Ml  Randolph  said  there  was  no  instance  of  one  nation  executing 
judgments  of  the  Courts  of  another  nation.  He  moved  the  follow- 
ing proposition: 

"  Whenever  the  act  of  any  State,  whether  Legislative,  Executive 
or  Judiciary  shall  be  attested  &  exemplified  under  the  seal  thereof, 
such  attestation  and  exemplification,  shall  be  deemed  in  other  States 
as  full  proof  of  the  existence  of  that  act — and  its  operation  shall  be 
binding  in  every  other  State,  in  all  cases  to  which  it  may  relate,  and 
which  are  within  the  cogmzanw  and  jurisdiction  of  the  State,  wherein 
the  said  act  was  done." 

On  the  question  for  committing  Art:  XVI.  with  MT  Pinkney's 
motion 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C5  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M^  ay. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

The  motion  of  MT  Randolph  was  also  committed  nem:  con: 

M^  Govt  Morris  moved  to  commit  also  the  following  proposition 
on  the  same  subject. 

"  Pull  faith  ought  to  be  given  in  each  State  to  the  public  acts, 
records,  and  judicial  proceedings  of  every  other  State;  and  the  Legis- 
lature shall  by  general  laws,  determine  the  proof  and  effect  of  such 
acts,  records,  and  proceedings,"  and  it  was  committed  nem:  contrad: 


•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Connecticut,  New  Jertey,  PenngylwuiU, 
Dela^re,  MRryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina.  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye-9; 
New  Hampshire,  Massachuaetto,  no— 2." 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  29,  1787         483 

The  committee  appointed  for  these  references,  were  JP  RutUdge 
Mr  Randolph,  W  Oorham,  M*.  Wilson,  &  m  Johnson. 

m  Dickenson  mentioned  to  the  House  that  on  examining  Black- 
stone's  Commentaries,  he  found  that  the  terms,'  "  ex  post  facto  "  re- 
lated to  criminal  cases  only;  that  they  would  not  consequently  re- 
strain the  States  from  retrospective  laws  in  civU  cases,  and  that  some 
further  provision  for  this  purpose  would  be  requisite. 

Art  VII  Sect.  6  by  yt  Committee  of  eleven  reported  to  be  struck 
out  (see  the  24  instant)  being  now  taken  up, 

MT  PiNKNEY  moved  to  postpone  the  Report  in  favor  of  the  fol- 
lowing  proposition—"  That  no  act  of  the  Legislature  for  the  pur- 
pose  of  regulating  the  commerce  of  the  U-  8.  with  foreign  powers  or 
among  the  several  States,  shall  be  passed  without  the  assent  of  two 
thirds  of  the  members  of  ereh  House."  He  remarked  that  there  were 
five  distinct  commercial  '  terests.  1.  the  fisheries  &  W.  India  trade, 
which  belonged  to  the  i>i.  England  States.  2.  the  interest  of  N.' 
York  lay  in  a  free  trade.  3.  Wheat  &  flour  the  Staples  of  the  two 
Middle  States  (N.  J.  &  Pennf).  4  Tob?  the  staple  of  Maiy*  & 
Virginia  &  partly  of  N.  Carolina.  5.  Rice  &  Indigo,  the  staples  of  S 
Carolina  &  Georgia.  These  different  interests  would  be  a  source  of 
oppressive  regulations  if  no  check  to  a  bare  majority  should  be  pro- 
vided.  States  pursue  their  interests  with  less  scruple  than  individ- 
uals. The  power  of  regulating  commerce  was  a  pure  concession  on 
the  part  of  the  S.  States.  They  did  not  need  the  protection  of  the  N. 
States  at  present. 

Mt  Martin  2^  the  motion 

Gen!  Pinknet  said  it  was  the  true  interest  of  the  S.  States  to 
have  no  regulation  of  commerce;  but  considering  the  loss  brought  on 
the  commerce  of  the  Eastern  States  by  the  revolution,  their  liberal 
conduct  towards  the  views*  of  South  Carolina,  and  the  interest  the 
weak  South?  States  had  in  being  united  with  the  strong  Eastern 
States,  he  thought  it  proper  that  no  fetters  should  be  imposed  on  the 
power  of  making  commercial  regulations;  and  that  his  constituents 
though  prejudiced  against  the  Eastern  States,  would  be  reconciled 
to  this  liberality.  He  had  himself,  he  said,  prejudices  agf  the  East- 
em  States  before  he  came  here,  but  would  acknowledge  that  he  had 
found  them  as  liberal  and  candid  as  any  men  whatever. 

unhi^.t''.'  »ne«iit  the  permiMion  to  import  Blaves.    An  understanding  on  the  two 
PntTU    r"'*'?'?°"A'"*  •'«'«^.  »»d  t»ken  Pl«e  between  tho«  pa,t,  of  H^e 


'H 


'The  transcript  uses  the  word  "terms"  in  the  singular. 


484      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Mt  Clymkr.  The  diversity  of  commercial  interests  of  necessity 
creates  difficulties,  which  ought  not  to  be  increased  by  unnecessary 
restrictions.  The  Northern  &  middle  States  will  be  ruined,  if  not 
enabled  to  defend  themselves  against  foreign  regulations. 

Mr  Sherman,  aUuding  to  M'.  Pinkney's  enumeration  of  particular 
interests,  as  requiring  a  security  ag^'  abuse  of  the  power;  observed 
that  the  diversity  was  of  itself  a  security,  adding  that  to  require  more 
than  a  majority  to  decide  a  question  was  always  embarrassing  as 
had  been  experienced  in  cases  requiring  the  votes  of  nine  States  in 
Congress. 

MT  PiNKNET  replied  that  his  enumeration  meant  the  five  minute 
interests.  It  still  left  the  two  great  divisions  of  Northern  &  Southern 
Interests. 

ii'.  Govr  MoRBis,  opposed  the  object  of  the  motion  as  highly  in- 
jurious. Preferences  o  American  ships  will  multiply  them,  till  they 
can  carry  the  Southern  produce  cheaper  than  it  is  now  carried. — A 
navy  was  essential  to  security,  particularly  of  the  S.  States,  and  can 
only  be  had  by  a  navigation  act  encouraging  American  bottoms  & 
seamen.  In  those  points  of  view  then  alone,  it  is  the  interest  of 
the  S.  States  that  navigation  acts  should  be  facilitated.  Shipping 
he  said  was  the  worst  &  most  precarious  kind  of  property,  and  stood 
in  need  of  public  patronage. 

M:  Willumson  was  in  favor  of  making  two  thirds  instead  of  a 
majority  requisite,  as  more  satisfactory  to  the  Southern  people.  No 
useful  measure  he  believed  had  been  lost  in  Congress  for  want  of  nine 
votes.  As  to  the  weakness  of  the  Southern  States,  he  was  not 
alarmed  on  that  account.  The  sickliness  of  their  climate  for  in- 
vaders would  prevent  their  being  made  an  object.  He  acknowledged 
that  he  did  not  think  the  motion  requiring  %  necessary  in  itself, 
because  if  a  majority  of  ^  Northern  States  should  push  their  regu- 
lations too  far,  the  S.  States  would  build  ships  for  themselves:  but 
he  knew  the  Southern  people  were  apprehensive  on  this  subject  and 
would  be  pleased  with  the  precaution. 

MT  Spaioht  was  against  the  motion.  The  Southern  States  could 
at  any  time  save  themselves  from  oppression,  by  building  ships  for 
their  own  use. 

M^  Butler  differed  from  those  who  considered  the  rejection  of 
the  motion  as  no  concession  on  the  part  of  the  S.  States.  He  con- 
sidered the  interests  of  these  and  of  the  Eastern  States,  to  be  as 
different  as  the  interests  of  Russia  and  Turkey.    Being  notwithstand- 


'  The  word  "  the  "  ig  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  29,  1787         485 

ing  desirous  of  conciliating  the  affections  of  the  East:  States,  h« 
should  vote  ag!'  requiring  %  instead  of  a  majority. 

Col.  Mason.  If  the  Qovi  is  to  be  lasting,  it  must  be  founded  in 
the  coniidence  &  affections  of  the  people,  and  must  be  so  con- 
structed as  to  obtain  these.  The  Majority  will  be  governed  by  their 
interests.  The  Southern  States  are  the  minority  in  both  Houses.  Is 
it  to  be  expected  that  they  will  deliver  themselves  bound  hand  &  foot 
to  the  Eastern  States,  and  enable  them  to  exclaim,  in  the  words  of 
Cromwell  on  a  certain  occasion — "  the  lord  hath  delivered  them  into 
our  hands. 

M^  WnaoN  took  notice  of  the  several  objections  and  remarked 
ihat  if  every  peculiar  interest  was  to  be  secured,  unanimity  ought 
to  be  required.  The  majority  he  said  would  be  no  more  governed  by 
interest  than  the  minority.  It  was  surely  better  to  let  the  latter  be 
bound  hand  and  foot  than  the  former.  Great  inconveniences  had, 
he  contended,  been  experienced  in  Congress  from  the  article  of  con- 
federat-      requiring  nine  votes  in  certain  cases. 

SK  LIaoison,  went  into  a  pretty  full  view  of  the  subject.  He 
observed  that  the  disadvantage  to  the  S.  States  from  a  navigation  act, 
lay  chiefly  in  a  temporary  rise  of  freight,  attended  however  with 
an  increase  of  South?  as  well  as  Northern  Shipping — ^with  the  emi- 
gration of  Northern  Seamen  &  merchants  to  the  Southern  States — & 
with  a  removal  of  the  existing  &  injurious  retaliations  among  the 
States  on  each  other.  The  power  of  foreign  nations  to  obstruct  our 
retaliating  measures  on  them  by  a  corrupt  influence  would  also  be 
less  if  a  majority  shI  be  made  competent  than  if  %  of  each  House 
sh^  be  required  to  Legislative  acts  in  this  case.  An  abuse  of  the 
power  would  be  qualified  with  all  these  good  effects.  But  he  thought 
an  abuse  was  rendered  improbable  by  the  provision  of  2  branches — 
by  ihe  independence  of  the  Senate,  by  the  negative  of  the  Executive, 
by  the  interest  of  Connecticut  &  N :  Jersey  which  were  agricultural, 
not  commercial  States;  by  the  interior  interest  which  was  also  agri- 
cultural in  the  most  commercial  States,'  by  the  accession  of  Western 
States  which  w^  be  altogether  agiicultural.  He  added  that  the 
Southern  States  would  derive  an  essential  advantage  in  the  general 
security  afforded  by  the  increase  of  our  maritime  strength.  He  stated 
the  vulnerable  situ'-Jon  of  them  all,  and  of  Virginia  in  particulT. 
The  increase  of  the  coasting  trade,  and  of  seamen,  would  also  be 
favorable  to  the  S.  States,  by  increasing,  the  consumption  of  their 
produce.     If  the  Wealth  of  the  Eastern  should  in  a  still  greater 

■  The  word  "  ao'l "  it  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


486      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

proportion  hf  augmented,  that  wealth  w«  contribute  the  more  to  the 
public  wants,  and  be  otherwise  a  national  benefi*. 

Mr  RuTUDOK  was  agT  the  motion  of  his  colleague.  It  did  not 
follow  from  e  grant  of  the  power  to  regulate  trade,  that  it  would 
be  abused.  At  the  worst  a  navigation  act  could  bear  hard  a  little 
while  only  on  the  S.  States.  As  we  are  laying  the  foundation  for 
a  great  empire,  we  ought  to  take  a  permanent  view  of  the  subject 
and  not  look  at  the  present  moment  only.  He  reminded  the  House 
of  the  necessity  of  securing?  the  West  India  trade  to  this  country. 
That  was  the  great  object,  and  a  navigation  Act  was  necessary  for 
obtaining  it. 

m  Randolph  said  that  there  were  features  so  odious  in  the  con- 
stitution as  it  now  stands,  that  he  doubted  whether  he  should  be 
able  to  agree  to  it.  A  rejection  of  the  motion  would  compleat  the 
deformity  of  the  system.  He  took  notice  of  the  argument  in  favor 
of  giving  the  power  over  trade  to  a  majority,  drawn  from  the  oppor- 
tunity  foreign  powers  would  have  of  obstructing  retaliating »  meas- 
ures if  two  thirds  were  made  requisite.  He  did  not  think  there  was 
weight  in  that  consideration.  The  difference  between  a  majority  & 
two  thirds  did  not  aflford  room  for  such  an  opportunity.  Foreign 
influence  would  also  be  more  likely  to  be  exerted  on  the  President 
who  could  require  three  fourths  by  his  negative.  He  did  not  mean 
however  to  enter  into  the  merits.  What  he  had  in  view  was  merely 
to  pave  the  way  for  a  declaration  which  he  might  be  hereafter  obliged 
to  make  if  an  accumulation  of  obnoxious  ingredients  should  take 
place,  that  he  could  not  give  his  assent  to  the  plan 

m  Gk)RHAM.  If  the  Government  is  to  be  so  fettered  as  to  be 
unable  to  relieve  the  Eastern  States  what  motive  can  they  have  to  join 
in  it  and  thereby  tie  their  own  hands  from  measures  which  they 
could  otherwise  take  for  themselves.  The  Eastern  States  were  not 
led  to  strengthen  the  Union  by  fear  for  their  own  safety  He  den- 
recated  the  consequences  of  disunion,  but  if  it  should  take  place  it 
was  the  Southern  part  of  the  Continent  that  had  the»  most  reason  to 
dread  them.  He  urged  the  improbability  of  a  combination  against 
the  interest  of  the  Southern  States,  the  different  situations  of  the 
Northern  &  Middle  States  being  a  security  against  it.  It  was  more- 
over  certain  that  foreign  ships  would  never  be  altogether  excluded 
especially  those  of  Nations  in  treaty  with  us. 

On  the  question  to  pospone  in  order  to  take  up  M".  Pinknev's 
Motion 


'•nl  ZZ^  " '■«t«|i?;"T"  is  eubstituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  rctaliaUng.' 
The  word     the     19  omitted  in  the  transcript.  """"ug. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  AUGUST  29,  1787        487 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C!  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  ay 
7f  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.> 

The  Beport  of  the  Committee  for  striking  out  sect :  6.  requiring 
two  thirds  of  each  House  to  pass  a  navigation  act  was  then  agrp(?d 
to,  nem:  con: 

MI  BuTLBB  moved  to  insert  after  art:  XV.  "  If  any  person 
bound  to  service  or  labor  in  any  of  the  U.  States  shall  ettcape  into 
another  State,  he  or  she  shall  not  be  discharged  from  such  service 
or  labor,  in  consequence  of  any  regulations  subsisting  in  the  State 
to  which  they  escape,  but  shall  be  delivered  up  to  the  person 
justly  claiming  their  service  or  labor,"  which  was  agreed  to 
nem:  con: 

Art:  XVII »  being » taken  up,  Mf  Govt  Morms  moved  to  strike  out 
the  two  last  sentences,  to  wit  "  If  the  admission  be  consented  to,  the 
new  States  shall  be  admitted  on  the  same  terms  with  the  original 
States.  But  the  Legislature  may  make  conditions  with  the  new 
States,  concerning  the  public  debt,  which  shall  be  then  subsisting."— 
He  did  not  wish  to  bind  down  the  Legislature  to  admit  Western 
States  on  the  terms  here  stated. 

M5  Madison  opposed  the  motion,  insisting  that  the  Western 
States  neither  would  nor  ought  to  submit  to  a  anion  which  degraded 
them  from  an  equal  rank  with*  other  States. 

Col :  Mason.  If  it  were  possible  by  just  means  to  prevent  emigra- 
tions to  the  Western  Country,  it  might  be  good  policy.  But  go  the 
people  will  as  they  find  it  for  their  interest,  and  the  best  policy  is 
to  treat  them  with  that  equality  which  will  make  them  friends  not 
enemies. 

Mi  Gov.  Morris,  did  not  mean  to  discourage  the  growth  of  the 
Western  Country.  He  knew  that  to  be  impossible.  He  did  not  wish 
however  to  throw  the  power  into  their  hands. 

M:  Sherman,  was  ag*;  the  motion,  &  for  fixing  an  equality  of 
privileges  by  the  Constitution. 

M^  Langdon  was  in  favor  of  the  Motion,  he  did  not  know  but 
circumstances  might  arise  which  would  render  it  inconvenient  to 
admit  new  States  on  terms  of  equality. 

Mr  WiLUAMSON  was  for  leaving  the  Legislature  free.  The  exist- 
ing small  States  enjoy  an  equality  now,  and  for  that  reason  are  ad- 


i;^i 


'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye— 4;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetto,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey, 
Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  South  Carolina,  no— 7." 

'  See  page  345. 

•  The  word  "  then  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


*  I 


488      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

xnitted  to  it  in  the  Senate.    Thii  reaaon  ia  not  applicable  to  new 
Western  States. 

On  i/P  Gov;  Morris's  motion  for  striking  out 


P?  ay.    Del.  ay.    M«  no 


N.  H.  ay.    Mas.  ay.    C!  ay.    N.  J.  ay. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

Mf  L.  Mabtin  &  MT  Govr  Morris  moved  to  striko  out  of  art  XVII. 
"  but  to  such  admission  the  consent  of  two  thirds  of  the  member* 
present  shall  be  necessary."  Before  any  question  was  taken  on  this 
motion, 

Mt  Govt  Morris  moved  the  following  proposition  as  a  substitute  for 
the  XVII  art: 

"New  States  may  be  admitted  by  the  Legislature  into  this 
Union :  but  no  new  State  shall  be  erected  within  the  limits  of  any  of 
the  present  States,  without  the  consent  of  the  Legislature  of  such 
State,  as  well  as  of  the  Gen!  Legislature  " 

The  first  part  to  Union  inclusive  was  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

M'.  L.  Martin  opposed  the  latter  part.  Nothing  he  said  would 
so  alarm  the  limited  States  as  to  make  the  consent  of  the  large  States 
clJming  the  Western  lands,  necessary  to  the  establishment  of  new 
States  within  their  limits.  It  is  proposed  to  guarantee  the  States. 
Shall  Vermont  be  reduced  by  force  in  favrr  of  the  States  claiming 
itt  Frankland  &  the  Western  country  of  Virginia  were  in  a  like 
situation. 

On  MI  Gov^  Morris's  motion  to  substitute  &c  it  was  agreed  to. 
N.  H.  no.    Mas.  ay.    (?.  no.    N.  J.  no.    P?  ay.    Del.  no.    Ml  no 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

Art :  XVII — •  before  the  House,  as  amended. 

Mr  Shkrman  was  agains*  it.  He  thought  it  unnecessary.  The 
Union  can  not  dismember  a  State  vdthout  its  consent. 

Mr  Lanodon  thought  there  was  great  weight  in  the  argument  of 
Ml  Luther  Martin,  and  that  the  proposition  substituted  by  Mt  Govt 
Morris  would  excite  a  dangerous  opposition  to  the  plan. 

M?  Gov.  Morris  thought  on  the  contrary  that  the  small  States 
would  be  pleased  with  the  regulation,  as  it  holds  up  the  idea  of 
dismembering  the  large  States. 

W.  Butler.    If  new  States  were  to  be  erected  without  the  con- 


"n  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Ck>ii- 
necti.at.  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware.  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye— 9;  Maryland,  Virginia,  nc>— 2." 

XT  JJ'^  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  MassachusetU,  PennsylvanU,  Virginia, 
>.orth  Carolina  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 6;  New  Hampshire,  Connectieut, 
New  .Jersey,  I>elaware.  Maryland,  no— «." 

'  The  word  "  being  "  it  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THURSDAY,  AUGUST  30,  1787 


489 


Mnt  of  the  dismembered  States,  nothing  bnt  confiuion  would  enroe. 
Whenever  taxes  should  press  on  the  people,  demagogaes  would  set 
up  their  schemes  of  new  States. 

Dod  Johnson  agreed  in  generc*  Hth  the  ideas  of  HP  Sherman, 
but  was  afraid  that  as  the  clause  ^U)od,  Vermont  would  be  sub- 
jected to  N.  York,  contrary  to  the  faith  pledged  by  Congress.  He 
was  of  opinion  that  Vermont  ought  to  be  compelled  to  come  into 
the  Union. 

Mc  Lanodon  said  his  objections  were  connected  with  the  ease  of 
Vermont.  If  they  are  not  taken  in,  &  remain  exempt  from  taxes,  it 
would  prove  of  great  injury  to  N.  Hampshire  and  the  other  neigh- 
bouring States 

Ml  Dickinson  hoped  the  article  would  not  be  agreed  to.  He 
dwelt  on  the  impropriety  of  requiring  the  small  States  to  secure  the 
large  ones  in  their  extensive  claims  of  territory. 

W.  Wilson.  When  the  majority  of  a  State  wish  to  divide  they 
can  do  so.  The  aim  of  those  in  opposition  to  the  article,  he  per- 
ceived, was  that  the  Qeni  Government  should  abet  the  minority,  & 
by  that  means  divide  a  State  against  its  own  consent. 

M!  Gov?  Morris.  If  the  forced  division  of  States  is  the  object 
of  the  new  System,  and  is  to  be  pointed  agl'  one  or  two  States,  he  ex- 
pected, the  Gkntleman '  from  these  would  pretty  quickly  leave  us. 

Adjourned 


:  ■  •? 


fi4 


Thursday  Auoust  30""  1787.*    In  CoNvmrnoN  ' 

Art  XVII  *  resumed  for  a  question  on  it  as  amended  by  M?  Gov^ 
Morris's  substitutes.* 

M^  Carrol  moved  to  strike  out  so  much  of  the  article  as  requires 
the  consent  of  the  State  to  its  being  divided.  He  was  aware  that  the 
object  of  this  prerequisite  might  be  to  prevent  domestic  disturbances, 
but  such  was  our  situation  with  regard  to  the  Crown  lands,  and  the 
sentiments  of  Maryland  on  that  subject,  that  he  perceived  we  should 
again  be  at  sea,  if  no  guard  was  provided  for  the  right  of  the  U. 
States  to  the  back  lands.  He  suggested  that  it  might  be  proper  to 
provide  that  nothing  in  the  Constitution  should  affect  the  Right  of 
the  U.  S.  to  lands  ceded  by  G.  Britain  in  the  Treaty  of  peace,  and 
pr  posed  a  committment  to  a  member  from  each  State.    He  assured 

'  The  tntnuript  uses  the  word  "  Oentlemaii "  in  the  plnnl. 

"  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  the  truucript. 

'  The  word  "  being  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  Toe  transcript  uses  the  word  "  substitutes  "  in  the  singular. 


490      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

the  Hou«e  that  thia  waa  a  point  of  a  moat  aeriona  nature.    It  waa 
deidreable  above  all  things  that  the  act  of  the  Convention  might  be 
agreed  to  unanimoualy.     But  should  thia  point  be  diaregarded    he 
believed  that  all  riaka  would  be  run  by  a  conaiderable  minority 
sooner  than  give  their  concurrence.  ' 

Ml  L.  Martin  2*!*  the  motion  for  a  committment. 

Ml  RuTUDOE  ia  it  to  be  supposed  that  the  Statea  are  to  be  cut 
up  without  their  own  consent.  The  case  of  Vermont  wUl  probably 
be  particularly  provided  for.  There  could  be  no  room  to  fear  that 
Virginia  or  N.  Carolina  would  caU  on  the  U.  States  to  maintain  their 
Government  over  the  Mountains. 

MT  WiLUAMSON  said  that  N.  Carolina  waa  weU  disposed  to  give 
up  her  western  lands,  but  attempts  at  compulsion  was  >  not  the  policy 
of  the  U.  S.  He  was  for  doing  nothing  in  the  constitution  in  the 
present  case,  and  for  leaving  the  whole  matter  in  Statu  quo. 

Mr  Wn^N  waa  against  the  committment.  Unanimity  was  of 
great  importance,  but  not  to  be  purchased  by  the  majority's  yield- 
ing to  the  minority.  He  should  have  no  objection  to  leaving  the 
case  of '  new  States  as  heretofore.  He  knew  of »  nothing  that  would 
pve  greater  or  juster  alarm  than  the  doctrine,  that  a  poUtical  so- 
ciety is  to  be  tome  asunder  without  its  own  consent 

On  M5  Carrol's  motion  for  commitment 

N.  H.  no.    Mas.  no.    Ci  no.    N.  J.  ay.    P»  no.    Del.  ay.    M*  av 
Vrno.    N.C.no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.no.*  ^  ^' 

Mt  Shbbman  moved  to  postpone  the  substitute  for  art-  XVII 
iigreed  to  yesterday  in  order  to  take  up  the  foUowing  amendment 
'The  Legislature  shall  have  power  to  admit  other  States  into  th*. 
Union,  and  new  States  to  be  formed  by  the  division  or  junction  of 
States  now  in  the  Union,  with  the  consent  of  the  Legislature  of  such 
States.  '  [The  first  part  waa  meant  for  the  case  of  Vermont  to  secure 
its  admission.] 

On  the  question,  it  passed  in  the  negative 

V»  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.« 


aboTe  it.  *'"'  *""""'?'  t*""  ^°^^  "*""  J"  crosaed  out  and  "were"  U  written 
•  The  word  "  the"  ii  here  inierted  in  the  trantcript 
The  wo'd  "  of  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 
t    xw  H  *™"»?''Pt  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jerwy.  Delaware,  Maryland,  aye 
Ta'rilf^.r^uTSin'fTe^^^rn^^^^  Pennsylvania.  Vir^nU..  Nort\ 

-In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  MassachusetU,  Con- 
neoticit  Pennsylvania  South  Carolina,  aye-5;  New  Jersey,  DeUware,  Jli^. 
land,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— «."  ' 


SESSION  OF  THURSDAY,  AUGUST  30,  1787  491 

Doc!  Johnson  moved  to  inwrt  the  words  "  hereafter  formed  or  " 
after  the  word*  "  shall  be  "  in  the  substitute  for  art:  XVII,  [the 
more  clearly  to  save  Vermont  as  being  already  formed  into  a  Sute, 
from  a  dependence  on  the  consent  of  N.  York  to  '  her  admission.]  The 
motion  was  agreed  to  Del.  &  M^  only  dissenting. 

in  Govern'  Morbis  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  "  limits  "  in 
the  substitute,  and  insert  the  word  "jurisdiction"  [This  also' 
meant  to  guard  the  case  of  Vermont,  the  jurisdiction  of  N.  York  not 
extending  over  Vermont  which  was  in  the  exercise  of  sovereignty, 
tho'  Vermont  was  within  the  asMrted  limits  of  New  Yoit] 

On  this  question 


P?  ay.    Del.  ay.    M?  ay. 


N.  H.  ay.    Mas.  ay.    C!  ay.    N.  J.  lo. 
V'f  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

Mr  L.  Martin,  urged  the  unreasonableness  of  forcing  &  guaran- 
teeing the  people  of  Virginia  beyond  the  Mountains,  the  Western 
people,  of  N.  Carolina,  &  of  Georgia,  &  the  people  of  Maine,  to  con- 
tinue under  the  SUtes  now  governing  them,  without  the  consent  of 
those  States  to  their  separation.  Even  if  they  should  become  the 
majority,  the  majority  of  Countiet,  as  in  Virginia  may  still  hold  fast 
the  dominion  over  them.  Again  the  majority  may  place  the  seat  of 
Government  entirely  among  themselves  &  for  their  own  conveniency,* 
and  still  keep  the  injured  parts  of  the  States  in  subjection,  under 
the  ^arantee  of  the  Gen!  Government  ag?  domestic  violence.  He 
wished  MJ  Wilson  had  thought  a  little  sooner  of  the  value  of  politictd 
bodies.  In  the  beginning,  when  the  rights  of  the  small  SUtes  were 
in  question,  they  were  phantoms,  ideal  beings.  Now  when  the  Great 
States  were  to  be  affected,  political  societies  were  of  a  sacred  nature. 
He  repeated  and  enlarged  on  the  unreasonableness  of  requiring  the 
fmall  States  to  guarantee  the  Western  claims  of  the  large  ones.— It 
was  said  yesterday  by  M^  Gov?  Morris,  that  if  the  Targe  States  were  to 
be  split  to  pieces  without  their  consent,  their  representatives  here 
would  take  their  leave.  If  the  Small  States  are  to  be  required  to  guar- 
antee them  in  this  manner,  it  will  be  found  that  the  Representatives 
of  other  States  will  with  equal  firmness  take  their  leave  of  the  Con- 
stitution on  the  table. 

It  was  moved  by  M*.  L.  Martin  to  postpone  the  substituted  article, 
in  order  to  take  up  the  following. 


'  ^e  word  "  for  "  is  iub«tltuted  In  the  trantcript  for  "  to." 
pe  word  "  was  "  Is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "Vew  Hampshire,  Massachusetts.  Con- 
necticut,  Pennsylvania,    DeUware,   Maryland,   VirginU.   aye— 7;    New   Jersey, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no-U."  »       '     '       '  •       ™   "•"*?' 
*  The  word  "  conveniency  "  ia  changed  to  "  convenience  "  in  the  transcript. 


492     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  17«T 

"  The  LegisUtun  of  the  U.  8.  ihall  have  power  to  erect  New 
Statee  within  u  well  m  withoat  the  territory  cltimed  by  the  MTeral 
Statea  or  either  of  them,  aod  admit  the  aame  into  the  Union :  provided 
that  nothing  in  thia  conatitution  ihall  be  eonatrued  to  affect  the 
claim  of  the  U.  S.  to  vacant  landa  ceded  to  them  by  the  late 
treaty  of  peMe.  which  paaaed  in  the  negative:  N.  J.  Del.  4  Ml 
only  ay. 

On  the  qaeation  to  agree  to  Ifr  OovT  Morria'a  anbatitated  article 
aa  amended  in  the  worda  following, 

"  New  SUtea  may  be  admitted  by  the  LeginUtore  into  the  Union: 
but  no  new  State  shall  be  hereafter  formed  or  erected  within  the 
jurisdiction  of  any  of  the  present  States  withoat  the  consent  of  the 
Legislature  of  auch  State  aa  well  aa  of  the  General  Legislatore  " 

N.  H.  ay.  Maa.  ay.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del  no.  iff  no. 
Vf  ay.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

HP  D1CKIN8OH  moved  to  add  the  following  clauae  to  the  laat— 

"  Nor  ahall  any  Stote  be  formed  by  the  junction  of  two  or  more 
States  or  parte  thereof,  withoat  the  consent  of  the  Legislatures  of 
such  States,  aa  well  as  of  the  legislature  of  the  U.  States."  which 
waa  agreed  to  without  a  count  of  tje  votes. 

Ml  Carrol  moved  to  aud— "  Provided  nevertheless  ♦hat  nothing 
in  this  Constitution  shall  be  c<mstmed  to  affect  the  laim  of  the 
U.  S.  to  vacant  lands  ceded  to  them  by  the  Treaty  of  peace."  This 
he  said  might  be  understood  as  relating  to  lands  not  claimed  by  any 
particular  States,  but  he  had  in  view  also  some  of  the  claims  of 
particular  States. 

Ml  Wilson  was  ag?  the  motion.  There  was  nothing  in  the  Con- 
atitution affecting  one  way  or  the  other  the  claims  of  the  U.  S.  k 
it  was  best  to  imert  nothing,  leaving  every  thing  on  that  litigated 
subject  in  statu  quo. 

M\  Madison  considered  the  claim  of  the  U.  S.  as  in  fact  favored 
by  the  jurisdiction  of  the  Judicial  power  of  the  U.  S.  over  con- 
troversies to  which  they  should  be  parties.  He  thought  it  best  on  the 
whole  to  be  silent  on  the  subject.  He  did  not  view  the  provieo  of  M! 
Carrol  as  dangerous;  but  to  make  it  neutral  k  fair,  it  ought  to  go 
farther  &  declare  that  the  claims  of  particular  States  also  shmild 
not  be  affected. 

Ml  Sherman  thought  the  proviso  harmless,  especially  with  the 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  rckda:  "New  Hampihire,  MiiuchiMetts,  Coa- 
necticut,  PenniylranU,  Virginia.  North  Caroliim,  South  Carolina,  Oeorria,  an 
— 8i  New  Jereey,  Delaware,  Maryland,  no— 3." 


8B88I0N  OF  THUB8DAT,  AUGUST  80,  1787  483 

•ddltion  nnmM  by  IT.  M«dkoii  in  teror  of  Um  eUiiu  of  partioaUr 

JK  BAi*wnr  did  not  wkh  any  nadoo  adTantar  to  Is.  fivw  to 
Oeorp*.    H«  tliought  tlw  proriao  proper  wHh  the  addition  oro. 
F>oi«l.    It  ehoold  be  remembered  that  if  Oeorgia  haa  (aiaed  mneh  by 
the  ceeuon  in  the  Treaty  of  peMe,  aha  wm  in  daa«er  dorinf  the  war 
of  a  Vti  poeridetia.  ^  ' 

Mr  RuTUDoi  thonght  it  wrong  to  inMrt  a  proriw)  where  then 
waa  nothmg  which  it  could  reatrain,  or  on  whieh  it  ooold  operate 

M.  Camol  withdrew  hia  motion  and  moved  the  foUowing. 
.  ■      If^rf'J^  Conetitntion  ahaU  be  eonatmed  to  alter  the 
claima  of  the  U.  8.  or  of  the  individual  SUtea  to  the  Weetem  terri- 
tory, but  all  aueh  claima  ahaU  be  examined  into  *  decided  apon,  by  the 
Supreme  Court  of  the  U.  Statea. "  t^.  "7  we 

MT  Oovf  Mourn  moved  to  poatpone  thia  in  order  to  take  no  the 
f  ouowing.  ^^  "  "• 

••The  Legialaton  ahaU  have  power  to  diapoae  of  and  make  aU 
Dwdfta  rulea  and  regulaUon.  reepecting  the  territoiy  or  other  prop- 

ll^i^'"  ""  ^-  ^***"'  '^  ~*"°'  *°  "'^  conatitution  coJ: 
tained,  ehaU  be  »  eonatmed  aa  to  prejudice  any  elaima  either  of  the 

S.  or  of  any  particukr  8Ute."-The  pcatponem!  ag^  to  nam.  con. 

JK  L.  Mamw  moved  to  amend  the  propodtion  of  M?  Gov?  Morria 
by  ««Jding>."  But  dl  anch  cUima  may  be  examin«i  into  A  decid«i 
upon  by  the  lupreme  Court  of  the  U.  Statea." 

MT  Govf  Moams.    thia  ia  unneeeawry.  ea  aU  auita  to  which  the 

MtV"^'^  ^.  *^^  ^  ^  ^^^"^  ^y  t'"  Supreme  Court. 

m  L.  Mawin,  It  la  propor  ia  ordar  to  remove  aU  doubta  on  thia 

point.  ^^ 

« Queation  on  Mr  L.  Ifartin'a  amendatory  motioa 

N.  H.no.    Maa.no.    C!  no.    N.  J.  ay.    P?  no.    Del.no.    M«  ay. 

.°°r  .^**'  °°*  '■'*'"'  '^^  ^  Mgativee  being  eufflcient  ft  the 
point »  given  up. 

^e^otion  of  m  Gov?  Morria  waa  then  agreed  to,  M»  alone 

Art:  XVIII «  being  taken  up,-the  word  "  foreign  "  waa  atruek 
out  nem ;  con :  a«  roperfluoua,  being  implied  in  the  term  "  invasion." 


494      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Mr  Dickinson  moved  to  strike  out  "  on  the  application  of  its 
Legislature,  against  "  He  thought  it  of  essential  importance  to  the 
tranquility  of  the  U.  S.  that  they  should  in  all  cases  suppress  do- 
mestic violence,  which  may  proceed  from  the  State  Legislature  itself, 
or  from  disputes  between  the  two  branches  where  such  exist 

M^  Dayton  mentioned  the  Conduct  of  Rho :  Island  as  shewing  the 
necessity  of  giving  latitude  to  the  power  of  the  U.  S.  on  this  subject. 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C^  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M?  no. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

On  a  question  for  striking  out  "  domestic  violence  "  and  insert! 
"  iiisii.Tections."    It  passed  in  the  negative. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C!  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M?  no. 
V .'  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

Mr  Dickinson  moved  to  insert  the  words,  "  or  Executive  "  after 
the  words  "  application  of  its  Legislature  " — The  occasion  itself  he 
remarked  might  hinder  the  Legislature  from  meeting. 

On  this  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  C^  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  K  ay.  Del.  »y.  W. 
div^    V*  no.    N.  C  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

Mt  L.  Martin  moved  to  subjoin  to  the  last  amendment  the  words 
"  in  the  recess  of  the  Legislature  "    On  which  question* 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  Ct  no.  Fi  no.  Del.  no.  M?  ay.  V!  no, 
N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no. 

Gn '  Question  on  the  last  clause  as  amended 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  no.  M?  no. 
Vf  ay.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.« 

Art:  XIX  »•«  taken  up. 

MT  Govt  Morris  suggested  that  the  Legislature  should  be  left  at 
liberty  to  call  a  Convention,  whenever  they  please. 

'In  tbe  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware, 
aye— 3;  New  Hampshire,  MaBrachusetts,  Connecticut,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 8." 

"In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jersey,  Virginia,  North  Carolina, 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 5;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Oanneeticnt, 
Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  no — 6." 

*  In  the  transcript  tbe  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  New 
Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye 
— 8;  Massachusetts,  Virginia,  no — 2;  Maryland,  divided." 

*  The  transcript  here  adda  the  words:  "  Maryland  only,  aye,"  and  omita  the 
vote  by  States. 

■  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  EUimpshire,  Massachusetts,  Con- 
necticut, New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye — 9;  Delaware,  Maryland,  no — 2." 

'  See  page  345. 

*  Tbe  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  THUBSDAY,  AUGUST  30,  1787  495 


was*  added  after 


The  art :  was  agreed  to  nem :  con : 

Art:  XX.>»  taken  up,— »"or  aifirmation 

"oath." 

m  PiNKNBT  moved  to  add  to  the  art:-"  '  ■:  no  religious  test 
shdl  ever  be  required  as  a  qualification  to  ,  y  omcc  or  pah1«c  trust 
under  the  authority  of  the  U.  States  " 

m  Sherman  thought  it  unnecessary,  he  prevailing  .berality 
being  a  sufficient  security  ag?'  such  tests. 

Mr  Gov_r  Mouas  &  Geni  Pinknet  approved  the  motiou. 

The  motion  was  agreed  to  nem:  con:  and  then  the  whole  Article: 
N.  C.  only  no— &  M?  divided 

Art.-  XXI.»'  •  taken  up.  viz: »  "  The  ratifications  of  the  Conven- 
tions  of  States  shaU  be  sufBcient  for  organising  this  Con- 

stitution." 

MT  Wilson  proposed  to  fill  the  blank  with  "  seven  "  that  being 
a  majority  of  the  whole  number  &  sufficient  for  the  commencement  of 
the  plan. 

MI  Carrol  moved  to  postpone  the  article  in  order  to  take  up  the 
Report  of  the  C!ommittee  of  Eleven  (see  Tuesday  Aug*  28)  »— and 
on  the  question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C!  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Ft  no.  Del.  ay.  M*  ay 
Vf  no.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.   Geo.  no.» 

M5  Govr  Morris  thought  the  blank  ought  to  be  filled  in  a  two- 
fold way.  so  as  to  provide  for  the  event  of  the  ratifying  States  being 
contiguous  which  would  render  a  smaller  number  sufficient,  and  the 
event  of  their  being  dispersed,  which  w-  require  a  greater  number 
for  the  introduction  of  the  Government. 

Mr  Shkrman.  observed  that  the  States  being  now  confederated 
by  articles  which  require  unanimity  in  changes,  he  thought  the 
ratification  in  this  case  of  ten  States  at  least  ought  to  be  made 
necessary. 

MI  Randolph  was  for  filling  the  blank  with  "  nine  "  that  being 


'  See  page  345. 

•  The  words  "  was  then  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
.  ??'"*k'Pr""*°.  '1*?!  '"*'^;"  *•  '■*"  inserted  in  the  transcript, 
above  it.        *"°**'P*  *'■•  ""*  "'^"  »•  <:"»*d  <>»*  "«>  "were"  it  writt« 
'  Sec  page  348. 

I  The  wordi  "being  then"  are  here  inMrted  in  the  transcript. 
,  ir*  ^"^^     ^''     >"  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

-ript^r  "twiylgM^-*"^""  "'  ^'^'*"  "*  •"'"*'■*''***  *"  «>«  ^»- 

^^n      V    ^P'W'e.  MaawMshttietts,  Connecticut,  PennsylTania.  Viririnia^ 
Aorth  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  OeorgU,  no-«.»  Virginia, 


^ikx   a^K.. 


496      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

a  respectable  majority  of  the  whole,  and  being  a  number  made 
familiar  by  the  constitntion  of  the  existing  Congress. 

MT  Wilson  mentioned  "  eight  "  as  preferable. 

Mt  Dickinson  asked  whether  the  concurrence  of  Congress  is  to  be 
essential  to  the  establishment  of  the  system,  whether  the  refusing 
States  in  the  Confederacy  could  be  deserted — and  whether  Congress 
could  concur  in  contravening  the  system  under  which  they  act^T 

W  AIadison,  remarked  that  if  the  blank  should  be  filled  with 
"  seven  "  eight,  or  "  nine  "—the  Constitution  as  it  stands  might 
be  put  in  force  over  the  whole  body  of  the  people,  tho'  less  than  a 
majority  of  them  should  ratify  it. 

ilR  Wilson.  As  the  Constitution  stands,  the  States  only  which 
ratify  can  be  bound.  We  must  he  said  in  this  case  go  to  the  original 
powers  of  Society.  The  House  on  fire  must  be  extinguished,  without 
a  scrupulous  regard  to  ordinary  rights. 

MI  BuTLEB  was  in  favor  of  ' '  nine."  He  revolted  at  the  idea,  that 
one  or  two  States  should  restrain  the  rest  from  consulting  their 
safety. 

Mr  Cabrol  moved  to  fill  the  blank  with  "  the  thirteen,"  unanimity 
being  necessary  to  dissolve  the  existing  confederacy  which  had  been 
unanimously  established. 

M'.  Kino  thought  this  amende  necessary,  otherwise  as  the  Consti- 
tution now  stands  it  will  operate  on  the  whole  though  ratified  by 
a  part  only. 

Adjourned 


Pridat  AuotiST  31"  1787.*    In  Convention. 

Mt  Kino  moved  to  add  to  the  end  of  art:  XXI  the  words  "  be- 
tween the  said  States  "  so  as  to  confine  the  operation  of  the  Gov?  to 
the  States  ratifying  it. 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C?  ay,  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  M?  no.  Virg*  sy. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay." 

Mr  Madison  proposed  to  fill  the  blank  in  the  article  with  "  any 
seven  or  more  States  entitled  to  thirty  three  members  at  least  in  the 
House  of  Representatives  according  to  the  allotment  made  in  the 


'  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  In  tht  transcript. 

'  In  place  of  the  rotp  by  States  the  transcript  reads:  "  nine  States  voted  in 
the  afflnnative;  Maryland,  no;  Delaware,  absent." 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  31,  1787  497 

3  Sect:  of  art:  4."    This  he  uid  ^  uld  require  the  concurrence  of  a 
majority  both  of  the  States  and »  people. 

m  Sherman  doubted  the  propriety  of  authorizing  less  than  all 
the  States  to  execute  the  Constitution,  considering  the  nature  of  the 
existir.f  Confederation.  Perhaps  all  the  States  may  concur,  and  on 
that  supposition  it  is  needless  to  hold  out  a  breach  of  faith 
*  YL^'^^r'-  """^^  ^"^"^  ""''*'^  *°  postpone  the  consideration 
.Z^'  ^  "i?  "'  *°  ^^  ''P  **'«  ^POft"  of  Committees  not  yet 
acted  on.    On  this  question,  the  States  were  equally  divided 

N.  H.  ay.    Mas.no.    Ct  div-    N.  J.  no.    Pf  ay.    Delay     Ml  av 

Vfno.   N.  Cno.    S.  C.  no.    G.  ay.»  ^" 

Mt  Govr  Morris  moved  to  strike  out  "  Conventions  of  the  " 

after     ratofications,"  leaving  the  States  to  pursue  their  own  modes 

of  ratification, 

M:  Carrol  mentioned  the  mode  of  altering  the  Constitution  of 
Maryland  pointed  out  therein,  and  that  no  other  mode  could  be 
pursued  in  that  State. 

M5  Kin.  thought  that  striking  out "  Conventions  "  as  the  requisite 
mode  was  equivalent  to  giving  up  the  business  altogether.  Conven- 
tions alone,  which  will  avoid  aU  the  obstacles  from  the  complicated 
formation  of  the  Legislatures,  wiU  succeed,  and  if  not  positively  re. 
quired  by  the  plan,  its  enemies  will  oppose  that  mode. 

Mr  Gov?  Morris  said  he  meant  to  facilitate  the  adoption  of  the 
plan,  by  leaving  the  modes  approved  by  the  several  State  Constitu- 
tions    0  be  followed. 

M^  Madison  considered  it  best  to  require  Conventions;  among 
other  reasons,  for  this,  that  the  powers  given  to  the  Gea'  Gov'  being 
taken  from  the  State  Gov",  the  Legislatures  would  be  more  disin- 
clined than  conventions  composed  in  part  at  least  of  other  men- 
and  If  disinclined,  they  could  devise  modes  apparently  promoting! 
but  reaUy,  thwarting  the  ratification.  The  difficulty  in  Maryland 
was  no  greater  than  in  other  States,  where  no  mode  of  change  was 
pomted  out  by  the  Constitution,  and  aU  officers  wens  under  oath  to 
support  It.  The  people  were  in  fact,  the  fountain  of  all  power 
and  by  resorting  to  them,  aU  difficulties  were  got  over.  They  could 
alter  constitutions  as  they  pleased.  It  was  a  principle  in  the  Bills 
of  rights,  that  first  principles  might  be  resorted  to. 

m  M'Hknrt  said  that  the  officers  of  GovJ  in  Maiyland  were 


•The  word  "the"  i«  here  inierted  in  the  tTMncrlpt. 
In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:   "New  Hmnpihire.  PenngrlvanU    rw.- 
ware   Ma^Und,  Georeia,  «ye-6.  Ma.«u!hu«ettrN^  Jeiir^triJii  '  ^^ 


I 
M 


498      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

ander  oath  to  support  the  mode  of  alteration  prescribed  by  the  Con- 
stitutiun. 

MI  Ohobuh,  urged  the  expediency  of  "  Conventions  "  also  M? 
PiNKNET,  for  reasons,  formerly  urged  on  a  discussion  of  this  question. 

Ml  L.  Mabtin  insisted  on  a  reference  to  the  State  Legislatures. 
He  urged  the  danger  of  commotions  from  a  resort  to  the  people  & 
to  first  principles  in  which  the  Oovermnents  might  be  on  one  side 
&  the  people  on  the  other.  He  was  apprehensive  of  no  such  con- 
sequences however  in  Maryland,  whether  the  Legislature  or  the  peo- 
ple should  be  appaaled  to.  Both  of  them  would  be  generally  against 
the  Constitution.  He  repeated  also  the  peculiarity  in  the  Maryland 
Constitution. 

M'.  Kino  observed  that  the  Constitution  of  Massachussets  was 
made  unalterable  till  the  year  1790,  yet  this  was  no  difttculty  with 
him.  The  State  must  have  contemplated  a  recurrence  to  first  prin- 
ciples before  they  sent  deputies  to  this  Convention. 

Mr  Shebm.\n  moved  to  postpone  art.  XXI »  &  *  take  up  art:  XXII  * 
on  which  question, 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P.  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  no    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

On  Mr  Govt  Morris's  motion  to  strike  out  "  Conventions  of  the," 
it  was  negatived. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  no.  M*  ay. 
V?  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.* 

On»  filling  the  blank  in  Art:  XXI  with  "  thirteen  "  moved  by 
M!  Cabrol  &  L.  Martin 

N.  H.  no.    Mas.  no.    O  no— all  no.  except  Maryland.* 

MI  Shbhman  &  Mt  Dayton  moved  to  fill  the  Mank  with  "  ten  " 

W.  Wilson  supported  the  motion  of  M^  Madison,  requiring  a 
majority  both  of  the  people  and  of  States. 

W  Cltmeb  was  also  in  favor  of  it. 

Col:  Mason  was  for  preserving  ideas  familiar  to  the  people. 
Nine  States  had  been  required  in  all  great  cases  under  the  Con- 
federation &  that  number  was  on  that  account  preferable 


'  See  page  346. 

•  The  word  "  to  "  ii  here  inserted  in  the  tnuuoript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  PennsTlvania,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virffinia,  aye— 5;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 6." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  Pennsylvania,  Maryland, 
Georgia,  aye — (;  New  Hampshire,  Bfaasachuaetts,  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Vir- 
ginia, South  Carolina,  no— «.'' 

'  The  words  "  the  question  for  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  all  the  States  were  no,  except  Maryland." 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  31,  1787 


499 


On  the  question  for  "  ten  " 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P*  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  ay. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  question  for  "  nine  " 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C\  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay » 

Art:  XXI.  as  amended  was  then  agreed  to  by  all  the  States, 
Maryland  excepted,  &  ]Vn  Jenifer  being,  ay. 

Art.  XXII  '■  ♦  taken  up,  to  wit,  "  This  Constitution  shall  be  laic", 
before  the  U.  S.  in  Cong!  assembled  for  their  approbation ;  and  it  is 
the  opinion  of  this  Convention  that  it  should  be  afterwards  sub- 
mitted to  a  Convention  chosen,  in  each  State  under  the  recommenda- 
tion of  its  Legislatare,  in  order  to  receive  the  ratification  of  such 
Convention  " 

MI  Govf  MosBis  &  M5  PiNKNET  moved  to  strike  out  the  words 
"  for  their  approbation  "    On  this  question 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  C*.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.»  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  no 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

M'.  Gov?  Mosais  &  Ms  Pinkney  then  moved  to  amend  the  art :  so 
as  to  read 

"  This  Constitution  shall  be  laid  before  the  U.  S.  in  Congress 
assembled;  and  it  is  the  opinioii  of  this  Convention  that  it  should 
afterwards  be  submitted  to  a  Convention  chosen  in  each  State,  in 
order  to  receive  the  ratificatiwi  of  such  Coaventitm :  to  which  end 
the  several  Legislatures  ought  to  provide  for  the  calling  Conventions 
within  their  respective  States  as  speedily  as  circumstances  will  per- 
mit."— ^MJ  Govt  MoBBis  said  his  object  was  to  impress  in  stronger 
terms  the  necessity  of  calling  Conventions  in  order  to  prevent  enemies 
to  the  plan,  from  giving  it  the  go  by.  When  it  first  appears,  with 
the  sanction  of  this  Convention,  the  people  will  be  favorable  to  it. 
By  degrees  the  State  officers,  ft  those  interested  in  the  State  Gov*? 
will  intrigue  &  turn  the  popular  current  against  it. 

in  L.  Mabtin  believed  MI  Morris  to  be  right,  that  after  a  while 

*  In  tlM  printed  Jonnial  N.  JtrMjr— ao. 

'In  tlie  tnnicript  the  rote  reads:  " Conneetknt,  New  Jeney,  lUrrUnd, 
Georgi*.  sye— I;  New  Huipdiire,  lCMa«chuaettt.  Penuylysai*,  Delaware,  Vir- 
ginia, Nortk  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 7." 

'In  the  tnuueript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampahire,  MaiMchnaetta,  Con- 
necticut, New  Jersey,  Pennaylvania,  Delaware,  Maiytand,  Georgia,  aye— 8;  Vir- 
ginia, North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 3." 

■  See  pa«e  346. 

*  The  worda  "  was  then  "  are  here  inaerted  in  the  tranicript. 

•In  the  tranecript  the  vote  reade:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut.  New 
Jersey*  FennsjrlTania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina, 
aye— 8;  Massachusetts,  Maryland,  Georgia,  no— S." 


I 


600      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

the  people  would  be  ag!*  it,  but  for  a  different  reaaoo  from  that 
alledged.  He  believed  they  would  not  ratify  it  onleas  harried  into  it 
by  surprize. 

Ml  Gebby  enlarged  on  the  idea  of  M5  L.  Martin  in  which  he 
concurred,  represented  the  system  as  full  of  vices,  and  dwelt  on 
the  impropriety  of  distroying  the  existing  Confederation,  without 
the  unanimous  consent  of  the  parties  to  it. 

*  Question  on  M^  Gov?  Morris's  &  M!  Pinkney's  motion 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C!  no.  N.  J.  no,  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  Wi  na 
V?  no.   N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

M?  Oerrt  moved  to  postpone  art:  XXII. 

Col:  Mason  2^  the  motion,  declaring  that  he  would  sooner 
chop  off  his  right  hand  than  put  it  tu  the  Constitution  as  it  now 
stands.  He  wished  to  see  some  points  not  yet  decided  brought  to  • 
decision,  before  being  compelled  to  give  a  final  opinion  on  this  article. 
Should  these  points  be  improperly  settled,  his  wish  would  then  be 
to  bring  the  whole  subject  before  another  gener&l  Convention. 

Mt  Govi  MoRBis  was  ready  for  a  postponement.  He  had  long 
wished  fci  another  Convention,  that  will  have  the  firmness  to  provide 
a  vigorous  Government,  which  we  are  afraid  to  do. 

HP  Randolph  stated  his  idea  to  be,  in  case  the  final  form  of  the 
Constitution  should  not  permit  him  to  accede  to  it,  that  the  State 
Conventions  should  be  at  liberty  to  propose  amendments  to  be  sub- 
mitted to  another  General  Convention  which  may  reject  or  incor- 
porate them,  as  shall  *  be  judged  proper. 

On  the  question  for  postponing 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CI  no.  N.  J,  ay.  ?•  no.  Pel.  no.  Ml  ay. 
Vf  no.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.   Geo.  no.* 

On  the  question  on  Art:  XXII 

N.  H.  ay,  Mas.  ay.  CJ  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  K  ay.  Del,  ay.  Ml  no. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

Art:  XXIII *  being  taken  up,  as  far  as  the  words  "  assigned  by 
Congress  "  inclusive,  was  agreed  to  nem:  con:  the  blank  having  been 
first  filled  with  the  word  "  nine  "  as  of  eoorse. 


'  The  words  "On  the "  are  liere  ii»ert«d  in  the  tnnseript. 

'In  the  tranieript  the  Tote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  luuisachuaettt,  PesB- 
sylvania,  Delaware,  aye— 4;  Coanecticnt,  New  Jersey,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Oeorg>ia,  no— 7." 

■  The  word  "  may  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  shall." 

*  In  the  transcTlpt  the  vote  reads:  "New  Jersey,  Maryland,  North  Carolina, 
are — 3;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  Pennsylrania,  Delawars, 
Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8." 

■  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  ten  States  aye;  Maryland  no." 

■  See  page  346. 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  AUGUST  31,  1787 


501 


On  a  motion  for  postponing  the  residue  of  the  claaw,  concern- 
ing the  choice  of  the  President  &c. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  ay.  C5  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  Ml  no. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

Ml  Govl  Morris  then  moved  to  strike  out  the  words  "  choose  the 
President  of  the  U.  S.  and  "—this  point,  of  choosing  the  President 
not  being  yet  finally  determined,  &  on  this  question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  ay.  C\  ay.  N.  J.  v  P*  V-  Del  ay.  M?  divl 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.»    Geo.  ay' 

Art:  XXIII  as  amended  was  then  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

The  Beport  of  the  Grand  Committee  of  eleven  made  by  M^  Sher- 
man was  then  taken  up  (see  Aug:  28).* 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  the  following  clause,  to  be  inserted 
after  Sect  4.  art:  VII.  "  nor  shall  any  regulation  of  commerce  or 
revenue  give  preference  to  the  ports  of  one  State  over  those  of 
another."    Agreed  to  nem:  con: 

On  the  clause  "  or  oblige  vessels  bound  to  or  from  any  State  to 
enter  clear  or  pay  duties  in  another  " 

Mr  Madison  thought  the  restriction  w?  be  inconvenient,  as  in  the 
River  Delaware,  if  a  vessel  cannot  be  required  to  make  entry  below 
the  jurisdiction  of  Pennsylvania. 

Mt  FiTziMMONS  admitted  thai  it  might  be  inconvenient,  but 
thought  it  would  be  a  greater  inconveniency  *  to  require  vessels  bound 
to  Philad?  to  enter  below  the  jurisdietioo  of  the  State. 

Ml  €k>RHAM  &  MT  Lanodon,  contmded  that  the  Gov^  would  be  so 
fettered  by  this  clause,  as  to  defeat  the  good  purpose  of  the  plan. 
They  mentioned  the  situation  of  the  trade  oi'  Mas.  ft  N.  Hampshire, 
the  case  of  Sandy  Hook  which  is  in  the  State  of  N.  Jersey,  but 
where  precautions  ag!*  smugi^ing  into  N.  York,  ought  to  be  estab- 
lished by  the  Gen!  Government. 

Mt  M?Henbt  said  the  clause  would  not  shreen  a  vessel  from 
being  obliged  to  take  an  officer  on  board  aa  a  security  for  due 
entry  &c. 

Mt  Cabrol  was  anzioua  that  the  clause  ahould  be  agreed  to.  He 
assured  the  House,  that  this  was  a  tender  point  in  Maryland. 

*  In  printed  JounukI — S.  C—no. 

■In  the  tnnacrlpt  the  vote  read*:  " UaMuhiuett*,  Delsw»re,  Virginia, 
North  Carolina,  aT»— 4;  N«w  Hampshire,  Conneeticnt,  New  Jeraey,  Pennayl- 
Tania,  Maryland,  Sooth  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 7." 

'  In  the  transcript  tlie  vote  reads:  "  Maaaaehusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey, 
Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,*  Georgia, 
aye— 0;  New  Hampshire,  no;  Maryland,  divided." 

'  In  the  transcript  this  date  reads  "the  twenty-eighth  of  Angost." 

'  The  word  "  inconveniency  "  is  changed  to  "  inconvenience  "  in  the  transcript. 


ii 


502      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


of 


N, 


in 


Ml  JiNNma  urged  the  neeeieity  of  the  eUuae  in  the  «une  point 

view. 

On  the  question  for  agreeing  to  it 

N.  H.  no.    a  ay.    N.  J.  ay.    P»  ay.    Del.  ay.    M*?  ay.    V*  ay. 

C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

The  word  "  tonnage  "  was  stmck  out,  nem :  eon :  aa  comprehended 

"  duties  " 

On'  question  on  the  clause  of  the  Report  "  and  all  duties,  im- 
posts &  excises,  laid  by  the  Legislature  shall  be  uniform  throughout 
the  U.  S."    It  was  agreed  to  nem:  con:  * 

On  motion  of  &n  Sherman  it  was  agreed  to  refer  such  parts  of 
the  Constitution  as  have  been  postponed,  and  such  parts  of  Reports 
as  have  not  been  acted  on,  to  a  Committee  of  a  member  from  each 
State;  the  Committee  appointed  by  ballot,  being— Mt  Oilman,  HP, 
King,  Mf  Sherman,  m  Brearly,  MI  Gov'.  Morris,  Ml  Dickinson, 
Ml  Carrol,  M;  Madison,  M^  Williamson,  Ml  Butler  &  W.  Baldwin. 
[The  House*  adjourned] 


Satuedat  Sep?  1.  1787 »    In  Convsntion. 


M!  Bbearlet  from  the  CommT  of  eleven  to  which  were  referred  yes- 
terday, the  postponed  parts  of  the  Constitution,  &  parts  of  Reports 
not  acted  upon,  made  the  following  partial  report 

That  in  lieu  of  the  aft  Sect:  of  art:  6.  the  words  following  be 
inserted  vis  "  The  members  of  each  House  shall  be  ineligible  to  any 
civil  office  under  the  authority  of  the  U.  S.  during  the  time  for 
which  they  shall  respectively  be  elected,  and  no  person  holding  an 
office  under  the  U.  S.  shall  be  a  member  of  either  House  during  his 
continuance  in  office." 

Ml  RxTTUDOE  from  the  Committee  to  whom  were  referred  sun- 
dry propositions  (see  Aug:  29),  together  with  art:  XVI,  reported 
that  the  following  additions  be  made  to  the  Report— viz 

After  the  word  "  States  "  in  the  last  line  on  the  Margin  of  the 

*  In  printed  Journal  N.  H.  ud  S.  C.  entered  m  •  In  the  negativ 

'In  the  tranacript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsyl- 
vania, Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8j  New 
Hampshire.  South  Carolina,  no — 2." 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  as  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  words  "  The  House  "  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  SEPTEMBEB  3.  1787  503 

3^  page  (Me  the  printed  Beport)— «dd  "  to  eetabluh  aniform  laws 
on  the  rabject  of  Rankrapteies." 

And  inaert  the  following  aa  Art:  XVI  rii 

"  Full  aith  nnd  credit  ought  to  be  given  in  each  State  to  the 
public  acta,  recorda,  and  JadieiU  proceedings  of  every  other  State* 
and  the  Legialatore  ahall  by  general  lawa  preaeribe  ih»  nunner  in 
which  aaeh  acta,  Beoorda,  ft  proceedings  ahall  be  proved,  and  the 
effect  which  Jodgmenta  obtained  in  one  State,  shall  have  in  another." 

After  receiving  these  reports 

The  House  adjourned  to  10  OC.  on  Monday  next  * 


Monday  Skp"  3,  1787.»    Iw  Convention 

VB  Govt  Montm  moved  to  amend  the  Beport  concerning  the  re- 
spect to  be  paid  to  Acts  Becords  Ac  of  one  State,  in  other  States 
(see  Sep^  1.)  by  striking  oat  "  judgments  obtained  in  one  State 
shall  have  in  another  "  and  to  insert  the  word  "  thereof  "  after  the 
word  "  effect  " 

Col:  Mason  favored  the  motion,  partieolarly  if  the  "  effeet  "  waa 
to  be  restrained  to  judgments  &  Jndieial  proceedings 

M!  Wo^on  remarked,  that  if  the  Legislature  were  not  allowed 
to  dedare  ike  effect  the  provisicm  would  amoont  to  nothing  more 
than  what  now  takes  place  among  all  Independent  Naticns. 

Doc!  JoBNSON  thought  the  amendment  aa  worded  would  authorise 
the  Gren!  Legislature  to  declare  the  effect  of  Legialative  acta  of  one 
State,  in  another  State. 

W  RANDOiiPH  considered  it  as  strengthening  the  general  objec- 
tion ag!*  the  plan,  that  its  definition  of  tb  '  powera  of  the  Qovem- 
ment  waa  so  loose  as  to  give  it  opportunities  of  nsorping  all  the 
State  powera.  He  was  for  not  going  farther  than  the  Beport,  which 
enables  the  Legislature  to  provide  for  the  effect  of  Judgments. 

On  the  amendment  as  moved  bv  M!  Gov^  Morris 

Mas.  ay.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  ay.  Ml  no.  V»  no.  N.  C.  ay. 
S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.* 

On  motitm  of  M^  Madison,*  "  ought  to  "  was*  stmck  out,  and 

■  Tbe  phrase  "  to  10  OC  on  Monday  next "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  Tear  "  1787  •*  is  mnltted  in  the  transcript. 

*  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Hasiachnsetts,  Conneeticat,  New  Jersey, 
Pennsrlrania,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye—*;  llaryland,  Virginia, 
Georgia,  no — 3." 

*  The  expression  "  tlie  words  "  is  ht^re  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

■The  vrord  "was"  is  crossed  out  in  tks  transcript  and  "w«n"  is  writtsB 
aJwreit. 


604      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

"  thaU  "  inMrted;  and  "  ihall  "  between  "  Legulature  "  A  "  bj 
general  laws  "  atruck  out,  and  "  may  "  inaerted,  nein:  con: 

On  the  qoeetion  to  agree  to  the  report  aa  amended  via  "  Full 
faith  ft  eredit  ahall  be  given  in  each  Sute  to  the  pnblio  aoU,  records 
ft  jadicial  proceedings  of  every  other  State,  and  the  Legialatore  may 
by  general  laws  prescribe  the  manner  in  which  snch  acta  reeorda  ft 
proceedings  ahall  be  proved,  and  the  effect  thereof  "»  Agreed  to 
with?  a  count  of »  Sts. 

The  clauae  in  the  Beport  "  To  establish  uniform  lawa  on  the 
subject  of  Bankruptcies  "  being  taken  up. 

&n  Sherman  observed  that  Bankruptcies  were  in  some  cases 
punishable  with  death  by  the  laws  of  England,  &  He  did  not  chuae 
to  grant  a  power  by  which  that  might  be  done  here. 

M?  Gov;  Morris  said  this  was  an  extensive  ft  delicate  subject 
He  would  agree  to  it  because  he  saw  no  danger  of  abnae  of  the 
power  by  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S. 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  the  clause 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Ci  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  M^  ay.  V!  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

M!  PiNKNET  moved  to  postpone  the  Report  of  the  Committee  of 
Eleven  (see  Sejrf  1)  in  order  to  ta.«:c  np  the  foUowing, 

"  The  members  of  each  House  ah-A)  be  incapable  of  holding  any 
office  under  the  U.  S.  for  which  they  or  any  other  for  their  benefit, 
receive  any  salary,  fees  or  emoluments  of  any  kind,  and  the  accept- 
ance of  such  office  shall  vacate  their  seats  respectively."  He  was 
strenuously  opposed  to  an  ineligibility  of  members  to  office,  and 
therefore  wished  to  restrain  the  proposition  to  a  mere  incompatibility. 
He  considered  the  eligibility  of  members  of  the  Legislature  to  the 
honorable  offices  of  (Jovemment,  as  resembling  the  policy  of  the 
Romans,  in  making  the  temple  of  virtue  the  road  to  the  temple  of 
fame. 

On  this  question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  Ct  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Mi  no.  V»  no. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.« 

MT  Kino  moved  to  insert  the  word  "  created  "  before  the  word 
"  during  "  in  the  Report  of  the  Committee.    This  he  said  would 


•  The  words  "  it  was  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
•The  word  "the"  Is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  place  of  the  vote  by  SUtes  the  transcript  reads :  "  Connecticiit  alone  was 
In  the  negative." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  " PennsylvanU,  North  Carolina,  aye— 2; 
New  Hampshire,  MasBachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Marvland.  Vlreinia. 
South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 8."  ■>        •        b       > 


SESSION  OF  MONDAT,  8EPTEUBEB  3,  1787         506 

ezelnde  the  members  of  the  fint  LeguUtore  ander  the  Conititotioa, 
u  moct  of  the  ofScee  wf  then  be  created. 

M!  WiLUAiuoN  2^  the  motion.  He  did  not  m«  why  memben 
of  the  LegisUtare  ahoold  be  ineligible  to  voconctM  happening  during 
the  term  of  their  election. 

M!  Sbducam  wu  for  entirely  ineapaeitatuig  memben  of  the 
LegiiUtnre.  He  thon^t  their  eligibility  to  offlcee  woold  give  too 
much  influence  to  the  Executive.  He  nid  the  incapacity  ought  at 
least  to  be  extended  to  craea  where  ialariea  ahoold  be  increased, 
88  well  aa  created,  daring  the  term  of  the  member.  He  mentioned 
also  the  expedient  by  which  the  reatriction  eoold  be  evaded  to  wit: 
an  existing  ofSeer  might  be  tranalated  to  an  office  created,  and  a 
member  of  the  Legialature  be  then  pat  into  the  offloe  vacated. 

M(  Gov?  MoMua  contended  that  the  eligibility  of  membera  to  office 
w^  leeaen  the  influence  of  the  Executive.  If  they  cannot  be  appointed 
themselvea,  the  Executive  will  appoint  their  relationa  4  frienda,  re- 
taining the  service  &  votea  of  the  membera  for  hia  parposea  in  the 
Legislature.  Whereaa  the  appointment  of  the  membora  deprivea  him 
of  such  an  advantage. 

Mr  Okbbt.  thought  the  eligibility  of  members  would  have  the 
effect  of  opening  batteriea  agf  good  officers,  in  order  to  drive  them 
out  &  make  way  for  memben  of  the  Legidatare. 

Mt  GoKHAM  waa  in  favor  of  the  amendment  Without  it  we  go 
farther  than  haa  been  done  in  any  of  the  Statea,  or  indeed  any  other 
Country.  The  experience  of  the  State  Qovemmenta  where  there  waa 
no  Bueh  ineligibility,  proved  that  it  waa  not  necessary;  on  the  eon- 
trary  that  the  eligibility  waa  among  the  indaeementa  for  fit  men  to 
enter  into  the  Legislative  service 

M!  Randolph  waa  inflexibly  fixed  against  inviting  men  into  the 
Legialature  by  tha  prospect  of  being  appointed  to  officea. 

W  BALDwm  remarked  that  the  example  of  the  States  was  not 
applicable.  The  Legislatures  there  are  so  nomerous  that  an  exdasion 
of  their  memben  would  not  leave  proper  men  for  offices.  The  caae 
would  be  otherwise  in  the  General  Government 

Col:  Mason.  Instead  of  excluding  merit,  the  ineligibility  will 
keep  out  corruption,  by  excluding  office-hunters. 

M!  Wilson  considered  the  exclusion  of  mcmbere  of  the  Legialature, 
as  increasing  the  influence  of  the  Executive  aa  observed  by  W.  Gov! 
Morris  at  the  same  time  that  it  would  diminish,  the  general  energy 
of  the  Government.  He  said  that  the  legal  disqualification  for  office 
would  be  odious  to  those  who  did  not  wish  for  office,  but  did  not  wish 
either  to  be  marked  by  so  degrading  a  distinction. 


506      DKBATBS  IN  THK  PKUKRAL  CONVKNTION  OP  1787 

MI  PwKNiY.  The  flm  Legialatura  wiU  be  coropoied  of  the 
■blert  men  to  be  found.  The  States  wiU  Mleet  raeh  to  put  the  Gov. 
enunent  into  opermUon.  Should  the  Report  of  the  Committee  or 
•Ten  the  amendment  be  agreed  to.  The  great  office.,  even  those  of  the 
Jndiciaiy  Department  which  are  to  eontinie  for  life,  must  be  filled 
whilrt  those  most  capable  of  filling  them  wiU  be  under  a  di«inaU. 
flcation.  ^^ 

On  the  question  on  M»  King's  motion 

N.  H.  ay.  M...  ajr.  C!  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ajr.  Mf  no.  V?  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

The  amendment  being  thua  lost  by  the  equal  division  o*  the  Sutes. 
M  WiLUAMsoN  moved  to  insert  the  word.  "  created  or  the  emoli 
menu  whereof  .hall  have  been  increased  "  before  the  word  "  dnr. 
ing     in  the  Report  of  the  Committee 

M'-  Kino  2^  the  motion,  A 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  sy.  Ms.,  ay.  d  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pt  ay.  M*.  no.  V»  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Oea  divided.*  ^ 

The  last  clause  rendering  a  Seat  in  the  LegisUture  A  an  off  ^  in- 
compatible  was  agreed  to  nem.  con: 

The  Report  as  amended  A  sgreed  to  is  as  foUows. 

"  Tne  members  of  each  House  shall  be  ineligible  to  any  Civil 
office  under  the  authority  of  the  U.  State.,  created,  or  the  emoiu- 

^nder  tJI  ^Tf^  -lected-and  no  pen«n  holding  any  office 
tinuance  m  office. "  — »    —  «»u 

Adjourned 


Tuesday  8ep«  4.  1787.»    In  Convention 
tia.tpo'n'foSows  '"^  ''*'"'""*'"  "'  ''''"'  "^'^  '  ""^»'-  P- 

refe^'o?r"35H°iT*°J*'  '''"»'"  T^^  resolutiomi  Ac  were 
rererred  on  the  31.    of  August,  report  that  in  their  opinion  the 

'  TTw  year  "  1787  »  U  omitted  In  tlM>  tnuiKript. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  4,  1787         SOT 

following  additions  and  altcrationa  ahoold  be  made  to  th«  Report 
liefore  the  Conrention,  via 

•  (1.)  The  flrrt  clauM  of  aect:  .  art.  7.  to  read  aa  follow—'  The 
Lrffi*'Bture  ahall  have  power  to  lay  and  collect  taxes  dutiea  imposts  * 
excises,  to  pay  the  debu  and  provide  for  the  common  defenoe  ft 
general  welfare,  of  the  U.  S.' 

(2).  At  the  end  of  the  2f  eUoae  of  aoet  1.  art  7.  add  '  and  with 
the  Indian  Tnbea.' 

(3)  In  the  place  of  the  9*  art  Sect  1.  to  be  inserted  '  The  Senata 
of  the  U.  8.  shall  have  power  to  try  all  impeachmenU;  bat  no  person 
■hall  be  eonvieted  withoat  the  eonearreaee  of  two  thirds  of  the 
members  present ' 

(4)  After  the  word  '  Ezeelleney '  in  sect  1.  art.  10.  to  be  in- 
serted. '  He  shall  hold  his  ofllee  during  the  term  of  four  yearn,  and 
tofrether  with  the  Vice-President  chosen  for  the  same  term,  be  elected 
in  the  following  manner,  via.  Each  State  shall  appoint  in  soeh  manner 
M  lU  Legislature  may  direct  a  number  of  electors  equsl  to  the 
whole  number  of  Senators  and  members  of  the  Hoiue  of  Representa- 
tives to  V  dieh  the  State  may  be  entitled  in  the  Legislature.  The 
Electors  shall  meet  in  their  respective  States,  and  vote  by  ballot  for 
two  persons,  of  whom  one  at  least  shall  not  be  an  inhabitant  of  the 
same  State  with  themselves;  and  they  shall  make  a  list  of  all  the 
persons  voted  for,  and  of  the  number  of  votes  for  each,  which  list 
they  shall  sign  and  certify  and  transmit  sealed  to  the  Seat  of  the 
Oea'  Government,  directed  to  the  President  of  the  Senat<>— The  Presi- 
dent of  the  Senate  shall  in  that  House  open  all  the  certificates;  and 
the  votes  shall  be  then  ft  there  counted.  The  Person  having  the 
greatest  number  of  votes  shall  be  the  President  if  such  number  be 
a  majority  of  that  of  the  electors;  and  if  there  be  more  than  one 
who  have  such  majoritjr,  and  have  an  equal  number  of  votes,  then 
the  Senate  shall  immediately  choc  by  ballot  one  of  them  for  Presi- 
dent: but  if  no  person  have  a  majority,  then  from  the  five  highest 
on  the  list  the  Senate  diall  choose  by  ballot  the  President  And  in 
every  case  after  the  choice  of  the  President  the  person  having  the 
greatest  number  of  votes  shall  be  vice-prudent:  but  it  there  should 
remain  two  or  more  who  have  equal  votes,  the  Senate  shall  choc  > 
from  them  the  vice-President  The  Legislature  may  determine  th« 
time  of  choosing  and  assembling  the  Electors,  and  the  manner  of 
certifying  and  transmitting  their  votes.' 

(5)  'Sect  2.  No  perscm  except  a  natural  bom  citiaen  or  a 
Utizen  of  the  U.  8.  at  the  time  of  the  adoption  of  this  Constitution 
shall  be  eligible  to  the  ofRce  of  President;  nor  shall  any  person  be 
elected  to  that  office,  who  shall  be  under  the  age  of  thirty  five 
yeare,  and  who  has  not  been  in  the  whole,  at  least  fourteen  years  a 
resident  within  the  U.  S.'  ' 

(6)  '  Sect  3.  The  vice-president  ahall  be  ex  officio  President  of 
the  Senat»,  except  when  they  rit  to  try  the  impeachment  of  the 

<x.«ilT^^*  1','h"^  copy  The  ririatloni  In  that  in  the  printed  Journal  are 
^?i!iw  ,  'Ik  '"«"TH>ration  of  tubaeqnent  amendmenti.  Thi.  remark  Is 
appiiable  to  other  categ. 


508      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

President,  in  which  caae  the  Chief  Justice  shall  preside,  and  ezeept- 
ing  also  when  he  shall  exercise  the  powers  and  dutiea  of  President, 
m  which  ease  &  in  case  of  his  absence,  the  Se  late  shall  chnae  a 
President  pro  tempore— The  vice  President  when  acting  as  President 
of  the  Senate  shall  not  have  a  vote  unless  the  House  be  finally 
divided. ' 

(7)  '  Sect.  4,  The  President  by  and  with  the  advice  and  Con- 
sent of  the  Senate,  shall  have  power  to  make  Treaties;  and  he  shall 
nonunate  and  by  and  with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate 
shall  appoint  ambassadors,  and  other  public  Ministers,  Judges  of 
the  Supreme  Court,  and  all  other  OfBcers  of  the  U.  8.,  whose  appoint- 
ments are  not  otherwise  herein  provided  for.  But  no  Treaty  shall 
be  made  without  the  consent  of  two  thirds  of  the  members  present' 

(8)  After  the  word*—"  into  the  service  of  the  U.  S.''^in  sect  2. 
*?^',^^"****  '  "^^  ™*y  require  the  opinion  in  writing  of  the  prin- 
cipal  oflBcer  m  each  of  the  Executive  Departments,  upon  any  subject 
relating  to  the  duties  of  their  respective  oflSces.' 

'The  latter  part  of  Sect  2.  Art:  10.  to  read  as  foUows. 

(9) » '  He  shall  be  removed  from  his  ofBce  on  impeachment  by  the 
House  of  Representatives,  and  conviction  by  the  Senate,  for  Treason, 
or  bribery,  and  in  case  of  hii  removal  as  aforesaid,  death,  abMoee, 
resignation  or  inability  to  discharge  the  powers  or  duties  of  his  <rf8ce, 
the  vice-president  shall  exercise  those  powers  and  duties  until 
another  President  be  chosen,  or  untU  the  inabiUty  of  the  President 
be  removed. 

The  (If)  clause  of  the  Report  was  agreed  to,  nem.  eon. 

The  (2)  clause  was  also  agreed  to  nem :  con : 

The  (3)  clause  was  postponed  in  order  to  decide  previously  on 
the  mode  of  electing  the  Prraident. 

The  (4)  clause  was  accordingly  taken  up. 

M:  Gobham  disapproved  of  making  the  next  highest  after  the 
President,  the  vice-President,  without  referring  the  decision  to  the 
Senate  in  case  the  next  highest  should  have  less  than  a  majority  of 
votes,  as  the  regulation  stands  a  very  obscure  man  with  very  few 
votes  may  arrive  at  that  appointment 

Mr  Sherman  said  the  object  of  this  clause  of  the  report  of  the 
Committee  wm  to  get  rid  of  the  ineligibility,  which  was  attached  to 
the  mode  of  election  by  the  Legislature,  &  to  render  the  Executive 
independent  of  the  Legislature.  As  the  choice  of  the  President  was  to 
be  made  out  of  the  Ave  highest,  obscure  characters  were  sufficiently 
guarded  against  in  that  case;  and  he  had  no  objection  to  requiring 
the  Vice-President  to  be  chosen  in  like  manner,  where  the  choice 
was  not  decided  by  a  majority  in  the  first  instance 

'The  figure  "9"Jb  tr«Mpoted  to  precede  the  MBUnce  beBinnlnir  "The 
latter'    ...  in  the  tnuucrlpt.  " 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAY,  SEPTEMBEB  4,  1787         509 

Mr  Madison  wm  apprehensiye  that  by  reqairing  both  the  Presi- 
dent  &  vice  President  to  be  chosen  oat  of  the  five  highest  candidates, 
the  attention  of  the  electors  would  be  turned  too  much  to  nrnking 
candidates  instead  of  giving  their  votes  in  order  to  a  definitive  choice. 
Should  this  turn  be  given  to  the  business,  the  election  would,  in 
fact  be  consigned  to  the  Senate  altogether.  It  would  have  the  effect 
at  the  same  time,  he  observed,  of  giving  the  nomination  of  the  can- 
didates to  the  largest  States. 

Mr  Gov.  MoHBis  concurred  in,  &  enforced  the  remarks  of  MT 
Madison. 

m  Randolph  &  W  Pinknet  wished  for  a  particular  explanation 
&  discussion  of  the  reasons  for  changing  the  mode  of  electing  the 
Executive. 

MI  Gov:  Morris  said  he  would  give  the  reasons  of  the  Committee 
and  his  own.  The  1!*  was  the  danger  of  intrigue  &  faction  if  the 
appointm!  should  be  made  by  the  Legislature.  2.»  the  inconveniency  * 
of  an  ineligibility  required  by  that  mode  in  order  to  lessen  its  evils. 
3.'  The  difficulty  of  establishing  a  Court  of  Impeachments,  other  than 
the  Senate  which  would  not  be  so  propei-  for  the  trial  nor  the  other 
branch  for  the  impeachment  of  the  President,  if  appointed  by  the 
Legislature,  4.*  No  body  had  appeared  to  be  satisfied  with  an  ap- 
pointment by  the  Legislature.  5."  Many  were  anxious  even  for  an 
immediate  choice  by  the  people,  6.«  the  indispensible  necessity  of 
making  the  Executive  independent  of  the  Legislature.— As  the  Elec- 
tors would  vote  at  the  same  time  throughout  the  U.  S.  and  at  so 
great  a  distance  from  each  other,  the  great  evil  of  cabal  was  avoided. 
It  would  be  impossible  also  to  corrupt  them.  A  conclusive  reason 
for  making  the  Senate  instead  of  the  Supreme  Court  the  Judge  of 
impeachments,  was  that  the  latter  was  to  try  the  President  after  the 
trial  of  the  impeachmmt. 

C<d:  Mason  confessed  that  the  plan  of  the  Committee  had  re- 
moved some  capital  objections,  particularly  the  danger  of  cabal  and 
corruption.  It  was  liable  however  to  this  strong  objection,  that  nine- 
teen times  in  twenty  the  President  would  be  chosen  by  the  Senate, 
an  improper  body  for  the  purpose 

W  BcTLER  thought  the  mode  not  free  from  objections,  but  much 


!  ~  *  *«^  "  2  "  '•  ch»ngwl  in  the  traiueript  tn  "  The  nest  wm«." 
ne  word  •  inwnveniency  "  te  changwl  in  the  trfcOMript  to  "  Inconvenience." 
The  flg:ure     3-^  I.  changed  in  the  trtnecript  to  "The  ttird  w..." 
The  figure     4  "  i»  changed  in  the  tnnicript  to  "  In  the  fourth  p]mee." 

•  Th!  5S!^  .. «  »*^  "''^n.*".  *•»•*"»«»«?»  to  « In  the  fifth  pftee." 
reawn  WM'^^  °**^        *  *  tran«^t  to  "And  fliMlfr,  the  iizth 


510      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

more  so  than  an  election  by  the  Legidatnre,  where  as  in  eleetivv 
monarchies,  cabal  faction  &  violence  would  be  sure  to  prevail. 

M'  PiNKNET  stated  as  objections  to  the  mode  1.^  that  it  threw  the 
whole  appointment  in  fact  into  the  hands  of  the  Senate.  2.*  The 
Electors  will  be  strangers  to  the  several  candidates  and  of  course  un- 
able to  decide  on  their  comparative  merits.  3.^  It  makes  the  Executive 
reeligible  which  will  endanger  the  public  liberty.  4.'  It  makes  the 
same  body  of  men  which  will  in  fact  elect  the  President  his  Judges 
in  case  of  an  impeachment. 

W  WiLLUMSON  had  great  doubts  whether  the  advantage  of  re- 
eligibility  would  balance  the  objection  to  such  a  dependence  of  the 
President  on  the  Senate  for  his  reappointment.  He  thought  at  least 
the  Senate  ought  to  be  restrained  to  the  two  highest  on  the  list 

M'.  OovT  MoRKis  said  the  principal  advantage  aimed  at  was  that 
of  taking  away  the  opportunity  for  cabal.  The  President  may  be 
made  if  thought  necessary  ineligible  on  this  as  well  as  on  any  other 
mode  of  election.  Other  inconveniences  may  be  no  less  redressed  on 
this  plan  than  any  other. 

M^  Baldwin  thought  the  plcji  not  so  objectionable  when  well 
considered,  as  at  first  view.  The  increasing  intercourse  among  the 
people  of  the  States,  would  render  important  characters  less  &  less 
unknown;  and  the  Senate  would  consequently  be  less  &  less  likely 
to  have  the  eventual  appointment  thrown  into  their  hands. 

M!  WiLsox.  This  subject  has  greatly  divided  the  House,  and  will 
also  divide '  people  out  o£  doors.  It  is  in  truth  the  most  difBcult  of 
all  on  which  we  have  had  to  decide.  He  had  never  made  up  an 
opinion  on  it  entirely  to  his  own  satisfaction.  He  thou^t  the  plan 
on  the  whole  a  valuable  improvement  on  the  former.  It  gets  rid 
of  one  great  evil,  that  of  cabal  &  corruption;  &  Continental  Char- 
acters will  multiply  as  we  more  &  more  coalesce,  so  as  to  enable  the 
electors  in  every  part  of  the  Union  to  know  &  judge  of  them.  It 
clears  the  way  also  for  a  discussion  of  the  question  of  re-eligibility 
on  its  own  merits,  which  the  former  mode  of  election  seemed  to  forbid. 
He  thought  it  might  be  better  however  to  refer  the  eventual  appoint- 
ment to  the  Legislature  than  to  the  Senate,  and  to  confine  it  to  a 
smaller  number  than  five  of  the  Candidates.  The  eventual  election  by 
the  Legislature  w1  not  open  cabal  anew,  as  it  would  be  restrained  to 
certain  designated  objects  of  choice,  and  as  these  must  have  had  the 
previous  sanction  of  a  number  of  the  States:  and  if  the  election  be 


■The  figures  "1."  "2,"  "8"  and  "4"  are  changed  in  th«  tran««ript  to 
"  flnt."  "  Secondly,"  etc. 

'  The  word  "  the  "  ii  here  inaerted  in  the  tranicript. 


SESSION  OF  TUESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  4,  1787         5U 

made  aa  it  ought  aa  mod  as  the  votes  of  the  electors  are  opened  ft 
It  18  knoTO  that  no  one  has  a  majority  of  the  whole,  there  can  be  litUe 
danger  of  corruption.  Another  reason  for  preferring  the  Legisla- 
ture  to  the  Senate  in  this  business,  was  that  the  House  of  Rep!  wiU 
be  80  often  changed  as  to  be  free  from  the  influence  &  faction  to 
which  the  permanence  of  the  Senate  may  subject  that  branch 

M'.  Randolph  preferred  the  former  mode  of  constituting  the 
Executive,  but  if  the  change  was  to  be  made,  he  wished  to  know 
why  he  eventual  election  was  referred  to  the  Senate  and  not  to  the 
Legislature?  He  saw  no  necessity  for  this  and  many  objections  to 
It.  He  was  apprehensive  also  that  the  advantage  of  the  eventual  ap. 
pomtment  would  fall  into  the  hands  of  the  States  near  the  Seat 
of  Government. 

Mt  Govr  Morris  said  the  Senate  was  preferred  because  fewer 
could  then,  say  to  the  President,  you  owe  your  appointment  to  us. 
He  thought  the  President  would  not  depend  so  much  on  the  Senate 
for  his  re-appomtment  as  on  his  general  good  conduct. 

The  further  consideration  of  the  Report  was  postponed  that  each 
member  might  take  a  copy  of  the  remainder  of  it. 

The  following  motion  was  referred  to  the  Committee  of  Eleven— 
to  wit,-"  To  prepare  &  report  a  plan  for  defraying  the  expences  of 
the  Convention 

•  JP  PiNKNEY  moved  a  clause  declaring  "  that  each  House  should 
be  judge  of  the  privilege'  of  its  own  members.  Mr  Gov?  Morris 
2^  the  motion 

Mt  Randolph  &  M^  Madison  expressed  doubts  as  to  the  propriety 
of  giving  such  a  power,  &  wished  for  a  postponement 

Mt  Gov.  Morris  thought  it  so  plain  a  case  that  no  postponement 
could  be  necessary. 

Mr  Wilson  thought  the  power  involved,  and  the  express  inser- 
tion  of  It  needless.  It  might  beget  doubts  as  to  the  power  of  other 
public  bodies,  as  Courts  &c.    Every  Court  is  the  judge  of  its  own 

privileges. 

in  Madison  distinguished  between  the  power  of  Judging  of  privi- 
leges previously  &  duly  established,  and  the  effect  of  the  motion 
which  would  give  a  discretion  to  each  House  as  to  the  extent  of  its 
own  privUeges.  He  suggested  that  it  would  be  better  to  make  pro- 
vision for  ascertaining  by  law.  the  privileges  of  each  House,  than  to 

"^"  nrotioB  not  inmted  •  in  the  printed  Journal. 

insert^"  ''°"^'  " ''  "°*  ~»**'»«»"  "«  •»b«titut«l  in  the  tran^ript  for  "not 
'  The  tranicript  uaes  the  word  "  privilege  "  in  iit»  plural. 


It 


512      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

allow  each  House  to  decide  for  iUelf .   He  suggested  also  the  necessity 
of  considering  what  privileges  ought  to  be  allowed  to  the  Execative. 

Adjourned 


Wednesday  Sep?  5.  1787.*    In  Convention. 

W  Brearlet  from  the  Committee  of  Eleven  made  a  farther  re- 
port as  follows, 

(1)  To  add  to  the  clause  "  to  declare  war  "  the  words  *'  and 
grant  letters  of  marque  and  reprisal  " 

(2)  To  add  to  the  clause  "  to  raise  and  support  armies  "  the 
words  "  but  no  appropriation  of  money  to  that  use  shall  be  for  a 
longer  term  than  two  years  " 

(3)  Instead  of  sect:  12.  art  6.  say—"  All  bills  for  raising  revenue 
shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Representatives,  and  shall  be  subject 
to  alterations  and  amendments  by  the  Senate:  no  money  shall  be 
drawn  from  the  Treasury,  but  in  consequence  of  appropriations  made 
by  law." 

(4)  Immediately  before  the  last  clause  of  sect  1.  art.  7.  insert 
"To  exercise  exclusive  legislation  in  all  cases  whatsoever  over  such 
district  (not  exceeding  ten  miles  square)  as  may  by  Cenion  of  par- 
ticular  States  and  the  acceptance  of  the  Legislature  become  the  seat 
of  the  Government  of  the  U.  S.  and  to  exercise  like  authority  over 
all  places  purchased  for  the  erection  of  Ports,  Magazines,  Arsenals, 
Dock- Yards,  and  other  needful  buildings  " 

(5)  "To  promote  the  progress  of  Science  and'  useful  arts  by 
securing  for  limited  times  to  authors  &  inventors,  the  exclusive  right 
to  their  respective  writings  and  discoveries  " 

This  report  being  taken  up.— The  (1)  clause  was  agreed  to  nem: 
con: 

To  the  (2)  clause  M^  Gerry  objected  that  it  admitted  of  appro- 
priations to  an  army,  for  two  years  instead  of  one,  for  which  he 
could  not  conceive  a  reason,  that  it  implied  that  *  there  was  to  be  a 
standing  army  which  he  inveighed  against  as  dangerous  to  liberty, 
as  unnecessary  even  for  so  great  an  extent  of  Country  as  this,  and 
if  necessary,  some  restriction  on  the  number  &  duration  ought  to  be 
provided :  Nor  was  this  a  proper  time  for  such  an  innovation.  The 
people  would  not  bear  it. 

W-  Sherman  remarked  that  the  appropriations  were  permitted 
only,  not  required  to  be  for  two  years.    As  the  Legislature  is  to  be 

•  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 
•The  word  "the"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
The  word  "  that "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  6,  1787      618 

biennially  elected,  it  would  be  inconvenient  to  require  wropriation. 
to  be  for  one  year,  u  there  might  be  no  Se«on  wS  L  tii^ 

°M  "!![L*°.  '*"'''  """•  ^«  •^«'^«*  J*^"  he  nid  like  a  reuZ 
able  rertnction  on  the  number  and  continuance  of  «,  army  ^^e 
of  peace.  •*«» 

The  clause  (2)  waa  >  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

The  (3)  dauae,  M!  Qovi  Mohris  moved  to  portpone.    It  had  been 

Sd  n^  ^."/i,"'''?^  *"  ^°*  *°*  >»•  «  ^  *•>«  -hole  he 
riNKNET  2*?*  the  motion 

Mt  Sherman  waa  for  giving  immediate  ease  to  those  who  looked 
on  this  clause  as  of  great  moment,  and  for  trusting  to  their  con- 
currence  in  other  proper  measures. 

On  the  question  for  postponing 

N.  H  ay  Mas.  no.  C:  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  ay.  M*  ay. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.»  ^v     m   my. 

So  much  of  the  (4)  clause  as  related  to  the  seat  of  Government 
was  agreed  to  nem :  con : 

On  the  residue,  to  wit,  "  to  exercise  like  authoritv  over  all  places 
purchased  for  forts  Ac.  *^^^ 

Mr  Qbbky  contended  that  this  power  might  be  made  use  of  to 
enslave  any  particular  State  by  buying  up  it.  territory,  and  that  the 
strongholds  proposed  would  be  a  means  of  awing  the  State  into  an 
undue  obedience  to  the  Gen."  Government 

Mt  Kmo  thought  himself  the  provision  unnecessary,  the  power 
being  already  involved:  but  would  move  to  insert  after  the  word 

State       This  would  certainly  make  the  power  safe 

M?  Govf  Morris  2*-  the  motion,  which  was  agreed  to  nem:  eon- 
as  was  then  the  residue  of  the  clause  as  amended. 

The  (5)  clause  was  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

The  following  resolution  &  order  being  reported  from  the  Com- 
mittee  of  eleven,  to  wit, 

"  Resolved  that  the  U.  S.  in  Congress  be  requested  to  allow  and 
cause  to  be  paid  to  the  Secretary  and  other  officers  of  this  Convention 


'The  word  "then"  i.  here  inwrted  in  the  tr.nicript. 
above  H  ''  ""'"^  °"*  '°  *•■•  *'"«"?»  •««»  "from"  i.  written 

•I.r Jy  V^'n/vW^tTi'JPVuw:!**  if^V   '.l^'J  H«npBhire,   Connecticut,   New 


i 


ft: 


rM\ 


514      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

■uch  aums  in  proportion  to  their  respective  times  of  service,  m  are 
allowed  to  the  Secretary  &  similar  officers  of  Congress." 

"  Ordered  that  the  Secretary  make  oat  ft  transmit  to  the  Treas- 
ury oflSce  of  the  U.  S.  an  account  for  the  said  Services,  &  for  the 
incidental  expences  of  this  Convention  " 

The  resolution  &  order  were  separately  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

HP  Gebrt  gave  notice  that  he  ahoold  move  to  reconsider  articles 
Xrx.  XX.  XXI.  XXII. 

HP  WiLUAiisoN  gave  like  notice  as  to  the  Article  fixing  the  num- 
ber of  Sepreser'  «,  which  he  thought  too  small.  He  wished  also 
to  allow  Rho:  idland  more  than  one,  as  due  to  her  probable  number 
of  people,  and  as  proper  to  stifle  any  pretext  arising  from  her 
absence  on  the  occasion. 

The  Beport  made  yesterday  as  to  the  appointment  of  the  Executive 
being  ^  taken  up.  M^  Pimknet  renewed  his  opposition  to  the  mode, 
arguing  1.'  that  the  electors  will  not  have  sufficient  knowledge  of  the 
fittest  men,  &  will  be  swayed  by  an  attachment  to  the  eminent  men  of 
their  respective  States.  Hence  2'!'  the  dispersion  of  the  votes  would 
leave  the  appointment  with  the  Senate,  and  as  the  President's  re- 
appointment will  thus  depend  on  the  Senate  he  will  be  the  mere 
creature  of  that  body.  3.*  He  will  combine  with  the  Senate  ag!*  the 
House  of  Bepresentatives.  4.»  This  change  in  the  mode  of  election 
was  meant  to  get  rid  of  the  ineligibility  of  the  President  a  second 
time,  whereby  he  will  become  fixed  for  life  under  the  auspices  of 
the  Senate 

Mt  Gerbt  did  not  object  to  this  plan  of  constituting  the  Exeeutive 
in  itself,  but  should  be  governed  in  his  final  vote  by  the  powers  that 
may  be  given  to  the  President. 

Mr  RuTLiDOE  was  much  opposed  to  the  plan  reported  by  the 
Committee.  It  would  throw  the  whole  power  into  the  sienste. 
He  was  also  against  a  re-eligibility.  He  moved  to  postpone  the 
Report  under  consideration  &  take  up  the  original  plan  of  appoint- 
ment by  the  Legislature,  to  wit.  "  He  shall  be  elected  by  joint 
ballot  by  the  Legislature  to  which  election  a  majority  of  the  votes 
of  the  members  present  shall  be  required:  He  shall  hold  his  office 
during  the  term  of  seven  years;  but  shall  not  be  elected  a  second 
time." 

On  this  motion  to  postpcme 


'  The  word  "  then  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tmnwript. 

"The  figures  "1,"  "3"  and  "4"  are  changed  to  "flrrt."  "Thirdly"  and 
'  Fourthly  "  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBBB  5,  1787      516 

N.  H.div-    MM.no.    CI  no.    N.  J.  no    Pf  no.    Del  no.    M?  no. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Oea  no.> 

Col.  Mabon  admitted  that  there  wen  objeetiona  to  an  appoint- 
ment by  the  Legialatnre  aa  originally  planned.    He  had  not  yet  made 
up  hxe  mind,  but  would  itate  hi>  objeetiona  to  the  mode  propoaed  by 
the  Committee.    l.»  It  puta  the  appointment  in  fact  into  the  hands  of 
the  Senate  aa  it  wiU  rarely  happen  that  a  majority  of  the  whole 
votea  will  fall  on  any  one  candidate:  and  as  the  Existing  President 
will  alway.  be  one  of  the  5  highest,  his  re-appointment  will  of  coune 
depend  on  the  Senate.    2.»  Considering  the  powers  of  the  President  ft 
those  of  the  Senate,  if  a  coalition  ahould  be  eatabliahed  between  these 
two  branches,  they  will  be  able  to  subvert  the  Constitution-The  great 
objection  with  him  would  be  removed  by  depriving  'Jie  Senate  of 
the  eventual  election.    He  accordingly  moved  to  strike  out  the  words 
If  such  number  be  a  majority  of  that  of  the  electors." 
Mr  WiLUAMsoN  2r  the  motion.     He  could  not  agi«e  to  the 
clause  without  some  such  modification.    He  preferred  making  the 
highest  tho    not  having  a  majority  of  the  votes.  Preaident,  to  a 
reference  of  the  matter  to  the  Senate.    Referring  the  appointment 
to  the  Senate  lays  a  certain  foundation  for  corruption  ft  aristocracy 
MI  Govt  Morrib  thought  the  point  of  less  oonsequence  than  it 
was  supposed  on  both  side       It  is  probable  that  a  majority  of 
votes  will  faU  on  the  same  man.   As  each  elector  is  to  give  two  votes 
more  than  Vi  will  give  a  majority.    Besides  as  one  vote  is  to  be 
given  to  a  man  Oct  of  the  State,  and  aa  this  vote  wiU  not  be  thrown 
away,  %  the  votes  wiU  fall  on  characters  eminent  ft  generaUy  known 
Again  if  the  President  shaU  have  given  satisfaction,  the  votes  wiU 
turn  on  him  of  course,  and  a  majority  of  them  wiU  reappoint  him 
without  resort  to  the  Senate:    If  he  should  be  disUked,  all  disliking 
him,  would  take  care  to  unite  their  votes  so  as  to  ensure  his  beins 
supplanted. 

Col.  Mason  those  who  think  there  is  no  danger  of  there  not  being 
a  majority  for  the  same  person  in  the  first  instance,  ought  to  give  up 
the  point  to  those  who  think  otherwise. 

Mr  Sherman  reminded  the  opponents  of  the  new  mode  proposed 
that  if  the  small  states  had  the  advantage  in  the  Senate's  deciding 
among  the  five  highest  candidates,  the  large  States  would  have  in 
fact  the  nomination  of  these  candidates 


9  'ii°  *'«'.*""'«rl|>t  the  vote  reuls:  "North  C«roHii».  South  Carolina,  aye 
Virpnia,  Geortria,  no— 8;  New  HampBhire,  divided."  ™«yi«iia. 

" Second^ »*°"''  "*  "  ""*"*"  •'»  •^•^8**  '"»  *•»«  tran«wipt  to  "Flrat"  and 


w 


l! 


616      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

On  the  motion  of  Col:  Maaon 

N.  H.  no.  Mu.  no.  C^  no,  N.  J.  no.  F?  no.  Del.  no.  Mi  aj* 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

in  Wilson  moved  to  ttrike  out  "  Senate  "  and  inaert  the  word 
"  Legialature  " 

Mr  Madison  conaidered  it  aa '  a  primary  object  to  render  an  even- 
tual resort  to  any  part  of  the  Legialature  improbable.  He  waa  appre- 
hensive that  the  propoaed  alteration  would  turn  the  attention  of 
the  large  States  too  much  to  the  appointment  of  candidates,  instead 
of  aiming  at  an  effectual  appointment  of  the  officer,  aa  the  large 
SUtes  would  predominate  in  the  Legialature  which  would  have  the 
final  choice  out  of  the  Candidates.  Whereaa  if  the  Senate  in  whieh 
the  amall  States  predraiinate  ahould  i  tve  thia*  final  choice,  the  con- 
certed effort  of  the  large  Statea  would  be  to  make  the  appointment 
in  the  first  instance  condnaive. 

W  Randolph.  We  have  in  some  revolutions  of  thia  plan  made  a 
bold  stroke  for  Monarchy.  We  are  now  doing  the  same  for  an 
aristocracy.  He  dwelt  on  the  tendency  of  such  an  influence  in  the 
Senate  over  the  election  of  the  President  in  addition  to  its  other 
powers,  to  convert  that  body  into  a  real  &  dangerous  Aristocracy. 

M!  Dickinson  was  in  favor  of  giving  the  eventual  election  to  the 
Legislature,  instead  of  the  Senate.  It  waa  too  much  influence  to  be 
superadded  to  that  body. 

On  the  question  moved  by  W  Wilson 

N.  H.  divl  Mas.  no.  01  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Del.  no.  M^  no. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Oeo.  no.* 

M:  1'.u>I80n  &  W  WiLLUMSON  moved  to  strike  out  the  word 
"  majority  "  and  insert  "  one  third  "  so  that  the  eventual  power 
might  not  be  exercised  if  less  than  a  majority,  but  not  leas  *>»»n  H 
of  the  Electors  should  vote  for  the  same  person. 

Mr  Gesrt  objected  that  this  would  put  it  in  the  power  of  three 
or  four  States  to  put  in  whom  they  pleased. 

MT.WiixiAiiBON.  There  are  seven  States  which  do  not  contain 
one  third  of  the  people.  If  the  Senate  are  to  appoint,  less  than  one 
sixth  of  the  people  will  have  the  power. 

*  In  printed  JonrnAl  MarylMd— no. 


'In  the  transcript  the  vote  rMds:  "Maryland,*  North  Carolina,  aye:  the 
other  nine  States,  no."  •    *   > 

•  The  word  "  a«  "  is  stricken  out  in  the  transcript. 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  this." 

*In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "Pennsylvania,  Virginia,  South  Caro- 
U"':v'Z^.'  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  DeUware,  Maryland, 
North  Carolina,  Georgia,  n»— 7;  New  Hampshire,  divided." 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  5,  1787      517 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  no.  UuM.  no.  C^  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M^  no. 
V»  ay.    N.  C.  ty.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

Mt  QsRBT  Buggeited  that  the  eventual  election  should  be  made 
by  six  Senators  and  seven  Representatives  cnosen  by  joint  ballot  of 
both  Houses. 

M'.  Kino  observed  that  the  influence  of  the  Small  States  in  the 
Senate  was  somewhat  balanced  by  the  influence  of  the  large  States 
in  bringing  forward  the  candidates ;  *  and  aim  by  the  Concurrence 
of  the  small  States  in  the  Committee  in  the  clause  vesting  the 
exclusive  origination  of  Money  bills  in  the  House  of  Repreaen- 
tatives. 

Col:  Mabon  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  "  five  "  and  insert  the 
\rord  "  three  "  as  the  highest  candidates  for  the  Senate  to  choose 
oat  of. 

M^  Qekbt  2^  the  motion 

Mt  SHQtxAN  would  sooner  give  up  the  plan.  He  would  prefer 
seven  or  thirteen. 

On  the  question  moved  by  Col :  Mason  &  Ml  Qerry 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C!  no.  N.  J.  no.  Ft  no.  Delaware  M*?  no. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

Mr  Spaioht  and  W.  RtrruDGE  moved  to  strike  out  "  five  "  and 
insert  "  thirteen  " — ^to  which  all  the  States  disagreed — except  N.  C. 
&S.  C. 

Mr  Madison  &  HP  Wiluamson  moved  to  insert  after  "  Electors  " 
the  words  "  who  shall  have  balloted  "  so  that  the  non  voting  electors 
not  being  counted  might  not  increase  the  number  necessary  as  a 
majority  of  the  whole,  to  decide  the  choice  without  the  agency  of 
the  Senate. 

On  this  question 


*  Thit  expUini  tb«  eompromiie  mantitmcd  above  *  bj  M^  Gov;  Morrii.  Col. 
Maioii  Mr  Qcny  k  other  mcmben  from  large  States  let  great  value  on  this 
privilege  of  originating  money  bills.  Of  this  the  members  from  the  small 
States,  with  some  from  the  large  States  who  wished  a  high  mounted  Govt 
endeavored  to  avail  themselves,  bv  making  that  privilege,  the  price  of  arrange- 
ments in  the  constitution  favorable  to  the  small  States,  and  to  the  elevation  of 
the  Government. 

■In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Virginia,  North  Carolina,  aye;  the 
other  nine  States,  no." 

'  The  words  "  alluded  to  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  mentioned 
abovp." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Virginia,  North  Carolina,  aye;  nine 
States,  no." 


■yti. 


518      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

N.  H.  no.  Mu.  no.  C?  no.  N.  J.  no.  PJ  ty.  Del  no.  M<  ty. 
VJ  Ky.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

Mt  Dickinson  moved,  in  order  to  remove  ambi^ity  from  the 
intention  of  the  clause  as  explained  by  the  vote,  to  add,  after  the 
words  "  if  such  number  be  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  the 
Electors  "  the  word  "  appointed  " 

On  this  motion 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Con:  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Delaware 
M-?  ay.    V?  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay* 

Col :  Mason.  As  the  mode  of  appointment  is  now  regulated,  he 
could  not  forbear  expressing  his  opinion  that  it  is  utterly  inad- 
missible. He  would  prefer  the  Government  of  Prussia  to  one  which 
will  put  all  power  into  the  hands  of  seven  or  eight  men,  and  flbt 
an  Aristocracy  worse  than  absolute  monarchy. 

The  words  "  and  of  their  giving  their  votes  "  being  inserted  on 
motion  for  that  purpose,  after  the  words  "  The  Legislature  may  de- 
termine  the  time  of  chusing  and  assembling  the  Eleeton  " 
The  House  adjourned. 


Thdbsoat  Sep"  6.    1787.*    In  Contsntiok 

Mr  Kino  and  M^  Oerrt  moved  to  insert  in  the  (5)  ♦  clause  of 
the  Report  (see  Sep^  4»)  after  the  words  "  may  be  entitled  in  the 
Legislature  "  the  words  following—"  But  no  person  shall  be  ap- 
pointed an  elector  who  is  a  member  of  the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S. 
or  who  holds  any  office  of  profit  or  trust  under  the  U.  S."  which 
passed  nem :  con : 

M!  Oebrt  proposed,  as  the  President  was  to  be  elected  by  the 
Senate  out  of  the  five  highest  candidates,  that  if  he  should  not  at 
the  end  of  his  term  be  re-elected  by  a  majority  of  the  Electors,  and 
no  other  candidate  should  have  a  majority,  the  eventual  election 
should  be  made  by  the  Legislature.    This  he  said  would  relieve  the 

•  In  the  tranacript  the  vote  reads:  "  PennnylTania.  Maiyland,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  aye — «;  New  Hampshire,  Massaehugettg,  Connecticut,  New  Jerwy,  Dela- 
ware, South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 7." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire.  Blaasachuietta,  Con- 
necticut, New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  MaryUiid,  South  Carolina, 
Georgia,  aye— »;  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  no— 2." 

•  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

♦  The  word  "  fourth  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  (6),"  the  latter 
being  an  error. 

*  In  the  tranacript  the  date  reads:  "  the  fourth  of  September." 


SESSION  OF  THUBSDAT,  SEPTEMBER  6,  1787       519 


Prwident  frmn  hia  partieoUr  dependtnee  on  th*  SenaU  f<w  hii 
continnance  in  ofRee. 

M!  Kino  liked  the  idea,  aa  ealeolated  to  aatUfjr  particular  mem- 
ben  &  promote  unanimity,  ft  aa  likeljr  to  operate  bat  aeldwn. 

Mr  Read  oppoaef)  it,  remarking  that  if  indiyidnal  membera  were 
to  be  indulged,  alterationa  would  be  neceaaary  to  aatiafy  moat  of  them. 

MT  WuxuMSON  eapooaed  it  aa  a  reaaonable  preeaation  againat 
the  undue  influence  of  the  Senate. 

M!  Shbhan  liked  the  arrangement  aa  it  atood,  though  he  ahould 
not  be  avene  to  aome  amendmenta.  He  thought  he  aaid  that  if  the 
Legialature  were  to  hare  the  erentnal  appointment  instead  of  the 
Senate,  it  ought  to  TOte  in  the  caae  bjr  Statea,  in  favor  of  the  tmall 
Statea,  aa  the  large  Statea  would  have  ao  great  an  advantage  in 
nominating  the  candidatea. 

M!  OovT  MraaiR  thoogfat  faTorably  of  M?  Oerry'a  propoaition. 
It  would  free  the  Preddent  from  being  tempted  in  naming  to  OfBcea, 
to  Conform  to  the  will  of  the  Senate,  ft  thereby  virtually  give  the 
appointmenta  to  oflBce,  to  the  Senate. 

M!  "WiiMnt  aaid  that  be  had  weighed  carefully  the  report  of  the 
Committee  for  remodelling  the  eonstitution  of  the  Executive;  and 
on  combining  it  with  other  parte  of  the  plan,  he  waa  obliged  to  con- 
sider the  whole  aa  having  a  dangeroua  tendency  to  aristocracy;  aa 
throwing  a  dangeroua  power  into  the  hands  of  the  Senate.  They 
will  have  in  fact,  the  appointment  of  the  President,  and  through  his 
dependence  on  them,  the  virtual  appointment  to  offices ;  amo'ig  othera 
the  offices  of  the  Judiciary  Department  They  are  to  make  Treaties; 
and  they  are  to  try  all  impeachments.  In  allowing  them  thua  to 
make  the  Executive  ft  Judiciary  appointments,  to  be  the  Court  of 
impeaehmenta,  and  to  make  Treaties  which  are  to  be  laws  of  the  land, 
the  Legislative,  Executive  ft  Judiciary  powers  are  all  blended  in  one 
branch  of  the  Oovemment.  The  power  of  making  Treaties  involves 
the  case  of  subsidies,  and  here  aa  an  additional  evil,  foreign  influence 
is  to  be  dreaded.  According  to  the  plan  as  it  now  stands,  the  Presi- 
dent will  not  be  the  man  of  the  people  as  he  ought  to  be,  but  the 
Minion  of  the  Senate.  He  cannot  even  appoint  a  tide-waiter  without 
the  Senate.  He  had  always  thought  the  Senate  too  numerous  a  body 
for  making  appointments  to  office.  The  Senate,  will  moreover  in  all 
probability  be  in  constant  Session.  They  will  have  hi^  salaries. 
And  with  all  those  powers,  and  the  President  in  their  interest, 
they  will  depress  the  other  branch  of  the  Legislature,  and  aggran- 
dize themselves  in  proportion.  Add  to  all  this,  that  the  Senate  sitting 
in  conclave,  can  by  holding  up  to  their  respective  States  various  and 


620     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 
improbabl*  eM«Ud.t,t,  eontriT.  m  to  matter  their  votei,  u  to  bria, 

O^e  who!.,  he  thoafht  the  new  mode  of  appointing  the  P».id«J 
with  eome  wnendment^  a  raluabl.  improrement;  bnt  he  could  n^ 
mtt  to  purchaw  It  at  the  price  of  the  enniinf  parte  of  the  Bewrt 
nor  befriend  a  eyrtem  of  which  they  makeVpart 
WiHa.^  ^"T  «P«-ed  hi.  wonder  at  the  obaerratJon.  of  Mr 
Wil«,n  «,  far  a.  they  p«fcrred  the  plan  in  the  printed  Report  to  the 
»«r  moddJeation  of  it  before  the  Hon.,,  and'entered  into  a  cot 
pwaUre  Tiew  of  the  two,  with  an  eye  to  the  natare  of  Mt  Wilwni 
objection,  to  the  lart.   By  the  flret  the  Senate  he  ob^rved  had  a  voiee 
in  appointing  the  Prerident  out  of  all  the  Citiien.  of  the  U  S-  by 
iW^k'""  'ii°w^  *!.!''•  candidate,  preriondy  nomin.ted  to 
i.r:  'j**  •  P«''»*»J>ty  «*  »»">«  barred  altogether  by  the  raeee«fol 
b«Uot  of  the  Electors    Here  murely  wm  no  incrwe  of  power.    tEt 
•re  now  to  appoint  Jadge.  nominated  to  them  by  the  Pitddent.    bI 
^  they  had  the  appointment  without  any  agency  what'^rer  of  the 
Premdent    Here  again  wa«  rarely  no  additional  power.    If  they  are 

the  Prmted  plan  If  they  are  to  try  impeachment.,  the  Judge,  murt 
have  been  tnablc  by  them  before.  Wherein  then  lay  the  danger- 
oo.  tendency  of  the  innovatiomi  to  ertabUA  an  arirtocracy  in  the 
Senatet    A.  to  the  appointment  of  officer.,  the  weight  of  .entiment 

l?\r°'"!'.r''  °P***^  ***  **»•  **•"*"  of  it  by  the  Prcident 
•lone;  though  It  wa.  not  the  cue  with  him«lf.    If  the  Senate  would 

!*  ""  «".P««ted,  in  miileading  the  State,  into  a  fallaciou.  di^ 

P«rti«  of  th«r  vote,  for  a  Prerident,  they  would,  if  the  appointm^ 

were  withdrawn  whoUy  from  them,  make  rach  i«pre«iution.  in 

their  «v.ral  State,  where  they  hay  influence,  a.  Would  favo"t£ 

object  of  their  partiality. 

Mr  WiLLUMMw.  replying  to  M-Morritrobwrved  that  the  arirtc 
cratic  complexMin  nroceed.  from  the  change  in  the  mode  of  appoint- 
ing  the  Preaident  which  makes  him  dependent  on  the  Senate 

M»  Clymib  uid  that  the  arirtocratic  part  to  which  he  could 
never  accede  wa.  that  in  the  printed  plan,  which  gave  the  Senate 
the  power  of  appointing  to  office 

Mt  Hahivton  .aid  that  he  had  been  restrained  from  entering 
mto  the  discuMions  by  hi.  dislike  of  the  Scheme  of  Gov!  in  General, 
but  a.  he  meant  to  support  the  plan  to  be  recommended,  as  better 
than  nothing,  he  wished  in  this  place  to  offer  a  few  remarks.  He 
liked  the  new  modification,  on  the  whole,  better  than  that  in  the 
printed  Report.    In  this  the  President  was  a  Monster  elected  for 


SESSION  OP  THUB8DAT.  8EPTEMBXB  6.  i787       5S1 

»nm  ymn,  and  inidicibl*  aftorwuda;  kairiiif  gtmt  powan,  in  ap. 

pointmcnta  to  offlee,  A  eontiBoally  tempted  by  thk  eooatitational  dia- 
qaalifleation  to  abuaa  them  in  order  to  aobreit  the  Oovemment  Al- 
though he  ahoold  be  made  re-eligible,  atiU  if  appointed  by  the  Legia- 
lature,  he  would  be  tempted  to  make  nae  of  eormpt  inflnenee  to  be 
continued  in  oflSf.  It  aeemed  peeoliarty  deainaUa  therefora  that 
lome  other  mode  of  election  ehoold  be  deriaad.  Conaiikrinff  the 
different  viewa  of  different  Statea,  A  the  different  diatrieta  Northern 
Middle  ft  Southern,  he  conoorred  with  thoae  who  thoaght  that  tlM 
Totce  would  not  be  eoneentored,  and  that  the  appointment  woold 
conaequently  in  the  preeent  mode  deTolra  on  the  Senata.  The  nomi- 
nation  to  offlcea  will  giro  great  weight  to  the  Pnaidant  Here  then 
ia  a  mutual  connection  ft  influence,  that  will  perpetoato  the  Pteaident, 
and  aggrandise  both  him  ft  the  Senate.  What  ia  to  be  the  remedyf 
He  Mw  none  better  than  to  let  the  hi^ieat  nomber  of  ballota,  whether 
a  majority  or  not,  appoint  the  Praeident.  What  waa  the  objection 
to  thiat  Merely  that  too  amall  a  nomber  might  appoint.  But  aa  the 
plan  itanda,  the  Senate  may  take  the  candidate  baring  the  amalleat 
number  of  votee,  and  make  him  Preaident. 

M*.  Spaiobt  ft  Mr  Wiuuicson  mored  to  inaert  "  aoTcn  "  inatead 
of  "  four  "  yeara  for  the  term  of  the  Preaident—  * 

On  thia  motion 

N.  H.  ay.    Maa.  no.    CI  no.    N.  J.  no.    P»  no.    Del.  no.    Iff*  no. 
V»  ay.   N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

M?  Spaioht  ft  M?  WiLUAicaoN,  then  moved  to  inaert  "  aix  "  in- 
etead  of  "  four." 

On  which  motion 

N.  H.  no.    Maa.  no.    CJ  no.    N.  J.  no.    P"  no.    Del.  no.    Ml  no. 
Vf  no.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no» 

On  the  term  "  four  "  aU  the  Statea  were  ay,  except  N.  Caro- 
lina,  no. 

On  the  qneation  «  (Claoae  4.  in  the  Report)  for  Appointing  •  Preai- 

*  Transfer  hither  whmt  U  braekeU.' 
[*  An  ineligibUitjr  n*  have  foUowMl  (tho'  it  ^ 
the  opinion  of  ul)  this  proloagktioa  of  the  term.] 


from  the  rote  not  ia 


'  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  the  tmiscript  the  vote  reads:  "  New  Hampshire,  Virginia,  North  Caro- 
lina, aye— 3;  Massachusetts.  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  PennsrlTania.  Delaware 
Maryland,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no-8."  /"•»».  i^iaware, 

a  *l"  *>!•  t^n^f'Pt  the  rote  reads:  "North  Carolina,  South  Carolina.  ay« 
—2;  New  Hampshire  Massaehu»etU.  Connecticut.  New  Jersey,  PUusylranU. 
DeUware,  Mainland.  Virginia,  Georgia,  no— B."  •■u»7i™«», 

.*!?'  """'•  "*"  *'■«*'  »™  here  Inserted  in  the  transcript 
The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  inserted  ia  the  tniBsoript 


i 
f 


522      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


-"  entitled  in  the  LegiaUtnre  " 
P?ay.    Del.  ay.    Ml  ay. 


dent  by  electors — down  to  the  words,- 
inclusive. 

N.  H.  ay.    Maa:  ay.    Con!  ay    N.  J.  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

It  was  moved  that  the  Electors  meet  at  the  seat  of  the  Qed  Got! 
which  passed  in  the  Negative.    N.  C.  only  being  ay. 

It  was '  moved  to  insert  the  words  ' '  under  the  seal  of  the  State  " 
after  the  word  "  transmit  "  in*  4^  clause  of  the  Beport  which 
was  disagreed  to;  as  was  another  motion  to  insert  the  words  "  and 
who  shall  have  given  their  votes  "  after  the  word  "  appointed  "  in 
the  4*  Clause  of  the  Report  as  added  yesterday  on  motion  of  IT. 
Dickinson. 

On  several  motions,  the  words  "  in  presence  of  the  Senate  and 
House  of  Representatives  "  were  inserted  after  the  word  "  counted  " 
and  the  word  "  immediately  "  before  the  word  "  choose  ";  and  the 
words  "  of  the  Electors  "  after  the  word  "  votes." 

MI  Spaight  said  if  the  election  by  Electors  is  to  be  crammed 
down,  he  would  prefer  their  meeting  altogether  and  deciding  finally 
without  any  reference  to  the  Senate  and  moved  "  That  the  Electors 
meet  at  the  seat  of  the  Qeneral  Government." 

M^  Williamson  2^  the  motion,  on  which  all  the  States  were  in 
the  negative  except  N:  Carolina. 

On  motion  the  words  "  But  the  election  shall  be  on  the  same 
day  throughout  the  U.  S."  were  added  after  the  words  "  trans- 
mitting their  votes  " 

N.  fl.  ay.  Mas.  no.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  DeL  no.  M?  ay. 
V»  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo— ay.* 

On  a  question  on  the  sentence  in  clause  (4).  "  if  such  number 
be  a  majority  of  that  of  the  Electors  appointed." 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  i^.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  W  ay. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  a  question  on  the  clause  referring  the  eventual  appointment 
of  the  Pi-esident  to  the  Senate 


'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  MaMachnsetts,  Con- 
necticut, New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  VirKinU.  Oeorsia.  an 
— ^9;  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 2."  =       >  o        / 

•  The  word  "  then  "  is  here  inicrted  in  the  tranicript. 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  inaerted  in  the  transcript. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Pennivl- 
yania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georcia,  aye-S; 
Massachusetts,  New  Jersev,  Delaware,  no — 3." 

'In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Manachusetta,  Con< 
necticut.  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Maryland,  South  CaroUna.  Qewafai.  m»-4: 
Pennsylvania,  VirginU,  North  Carolina,  no— 3." 


SESSION  OF  THUBSDAT,  SEPTEMBEB  6,  1787       528 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  O.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del  ay.  V?  ay. 
N.  C.  no.^    Here  the  call  ceased. 

M!  Madison  made  a  motion  requiring  %  at  least  of  the  Senate 
to  be  present  at  the  choice  of  a  President  M^  Pinknst  2<^  the 
motion 

M^  GoBBAK  thought  it  a  wrong  principle  to  require  more  than 
a  majority  in  any  case.  In  the  present  case  *  it  might  prevent  for  a 
long  time  any  choice  of  a  President.  On  the  question  moved  by 
>P  M.  &  MT  P. 

N.  H.  ay :  Mas.  abs!  a  no.  N.  J.  no.  P*  no.  Del.  no.  W  ay. 
Vf  ay.   N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Mt  WouAMSON  suggested  as  better  than  an  eventual  choice  by 
the  Senate,  that  this  choice  should  be  made  by  the  Legislature, 
voting  by  States  and  not  per  capita. 

Mr  Shebhan  suggested  the  House  of  Bep*  as  preferable  to  the 
Legislature,  and  moved,  accordingly, 

To  strike  out  the  words  "  The  Senate  shall  immediately  choose 
&c."  and  insert  "  The  House  of  Representatives  shall  immediately 
choose  by  ballot  one  of  them  for  Pres  it,  the  members  from  each 
State  having  one  vote." 

Col:  Mason  liked  the  latter  mode  best  as  lessening  the  aristo- 
cratic influence  of  the  Senate. 

On  the  Motion  of  W  Sherman 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  ay.  Del.  no.  W  ay. 
V?  ay.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

W.  Govt  McniuB  suggested  the  idea  of  providing  that  in  all  cases, 
the  President  in  office,  should  not  be  one  of  the  five  Candidates;  but 
be  only  re-eligible  in  case  a  majority  of  the  electors  should  vote  for 
him.  [This  was  snother  expedient  for  rendering  the  President 
independent  of  the  Legislative  body  for  Us  eontinnance  in 
ofiSce.] 

M;  Madison  remarked  that  as  a  majority  of  members  w^  make  a 
quorum  in  the  H.  of  Rep!  it  would  follow  from  the  amendment  of 
Ml  Sherman  giving  the  election  to  a  majority  of  States,  that  the 


■  In  the  trmnieript  the  Tote  read*:  "New  Hampihire,  MauaehuMtta,  Con- 
necticut, Mew  Jeney,  PemuyWania,  Ddaware,  Virginia,  ay*— 7;  NoriJi  Carolina, 
no." 

■  The  word  "  caee  "  ia  omitted  in  the  traaieript. 

'In  the  tranicript  the  vote  reada:  "New  Hampehire,  Maryland,  Virginia, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— «;  Connecticut,  New  Jeraey,  Penn- 
sylvania, DeUware,  no— 4;  Maaaachmetti,  abaent." 

Mn  the  tranicript  the  vote  reada:  "New  Hampshire,  MaMaehuaetta,  Con- 
Dccticut,  New  Jeney,  PenneylTania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Soutk 
Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 10.    Delaware,  a»— l." 


524      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

President  might  be  elected  by  two  States  only,  Virg!  ft  Pen!  which 
have  18  memben,  if  these  States  alone  should  be  present 

On  a  motion  that  the  eventoal  election  of  Preside  in  case  of  on 
equality » of  tiie  votes  of  the  electors  be  refenvd  to  the  House  of  Sep! 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del  no.  Ml  no.  V»  ay 
N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay.» 

Mt  Kino  moved  to  add  to  the  amendment  of  M'.  Shennan  "  But 
a  quorum  for  this  purpose  shall  consist  of  a  member  or  members 
from  two  thirds  of  the  States,"  and  also  of  a  majority  of  the  whole 
number  of  the  House  of  Representatives." 

Col:  Mason  liked  it  as  obviating  the  remark  of  W.  Madison— 
The  motion  as  far  as  "  States  "  inclusive  was  agl  to.  On  the  residue 
to  wit,  "  and  also  of  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  the  House 
of  Bep!  it  passed  in  the  Negative. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  ay.  Ci  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P;  ay.  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

The  Report  relating  to  the  appointment  of  the  Executive  stands 
as  amended,  as  follows, 

"He  riiall  hold  his  office  during  the  term  of  four  years,  and 
together  with  the  Vice-President,  chosen  for  the  same  term,  be  elected 
m  the  following  manner. 

Each  State  shall  appoint  in  such  manner  as  its  Legislature  may 
direct,  a  number  of  electors  equal  to  the  whole  number  of  Senators 
and  members  of  the  House  of  liepreswitatives,  to  which  the  State 
may  be  entitled  in  the  Legislature : 

But  no  person  shall  be  appointed  an  Elector  who  is  a  member  of 
the  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  or  who  holds  any  office  of  profit  or 
trust  under  the  U.  S.  -*  t- 

The  Electors  shaU  meet  in  their  respective  States  and  vote  by 
ballot  for  two  persons,  of  whom  one  at  least  shall  not  be  an  inhabi- 
tant of  the  same  Stote  with  themselves;  and  they  shall  make  a  list 
of  all  the  persons  voted  for,  and  of  the  number  of  votes  for  each, 
which  list  they  shall  sign  and  certify,  and  transmit  sealed  to  the 
Seat  of  the  General  Government,  directed  to  the  President  of  the 
senate. 

The  President  of  the  Senate  shall  in  the  presence  of  the  Senate 
ajid  House  of  Representatives  open  all  the  certificates  ft  the  votes 
shall  then  be  counted. 

The  person  having  the  greatest  number  of  votes  shall  be  the 

'  The  tranicript  Aoea  not  Italiciie  the  words  "  m  eqttality." 
In  the  t»nicript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire.  Masiachnsett*.  Penn- 
•ylv^nia,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georria,  aye— 7:  New  Jersey 
Delaware,  Maryland,  no— 3."  o        *         .  ]< 

— I'^v.*''*  ^'■"^iPv  i?*  T?**  '•'^=  "Massachusetts.  Connecticut.  Pennsrl- 
Tanla,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  aye-5 ;  New  Hampshire,  New  Jersey.  Dek- 
ware,  Maryland,  South  Carolina,  CtoM^  no— 6." 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  SEPTEMBEB  7,  1787  525 

majority.  "ffhTvi  "'4iifTumtro?vo'tS:  XV^'l  ''^  ""'^ 
Representatives  shaU  immediat«.lv  ^hnn^  k    1^..*''®°  ^''^  ^o"»  ot 

President,  the  BepSUS^^^mtirSu^te'h^^^^^^^^^ 
If  no  person  have  a  majority  then  from  ♦!»:<»  u"!*"*^  ^°*«-  ^^^ 
the  House  of  BepresenuS  SLi  i^  Ht  *  *''*  '"«*J^*  <»°  «>«  lit. 
the  President.  iS  ^e  choS  S^  ^'fr"!!:  "^.?»*  "^^  »»»«>* 
resentatives,  a  Quorom  S^it/^-  *  ^l  **■*  ^«""«  °'  »«?- 
two  thirds  ot  the  StaS»  r^„^^^  °'  *  member  or  members  from 
the  Ste^shaui  nS2Liv^  .JSf  T^'>^^^  of  a  majority  of  iS 
the  choice  S^e  PmS^it  iS.^"^i!"'-^-f?^  ^  ''^''y  '^^  a^Sr 
votes  of  the  ElitoJTEl  Af^f  J'*''?!?*  the  greatest  number  of 
«main  two  or  mo"  who  Uv?«,^^^if*?^=  ^°*'  ''  ^'^  ^^^^ 
from  them  the  vice^pSfdent  ^         ^***  "^  •*««« 

and'^f  ffi^^Sng'tKir'tS^LttS"*  ''  ''''^'i"^  «»«  Elector- 
transmitting  Seir  vote^Bu?the^l2^'^fcTL°'  «'«rti^n8  "d 
throughout  the  U.  Statw/'  •"  "'^  •*  0°  ^«  '«»n>e  day 

Adjourned 


f 

1 

. 

i- 

'i 

V 

■ 

: 

;  ■'■ 

1 

1 

PWDAT  Sn*  7.  1787.'    In  Convbntiok 

Fridl/SfT".^  "'""•  '^  ~*  *""^«»  «■  ""«•  «»«y.  b«t  on  the  7U.  •  8.p,    g* 
tin  the  printed  Jounul  thi.  a,..„d«e,t  i,  p„t  into  the  origin,!  Motion. 

•tSI  ZoJd  •Mn.t''.'".L'  •r'*^J"  *"»  t«>«cript.  

•The  rir  •■  ItSt"*.'  "^^  i»f  r*«»  '°  the  tranwript. 
.  if*  y*^    „".*I7     J«  omitted  in  the  tranMrint 
n..  word.  ..  the  following  "  .«  here  S^^L  the  tr.n.cript. 


526      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

with  others,  that  the  Legislature  was  restrained  in  the  temporary 
appointment  to  "  officers  "  of  the  U.  S:  They  wished  it  to  be  at 
liberty  to  appoint  others  than  such. 

On  the  Motion  of  W.  Randolph  as  amended,  it  passed  in  the 
afiSrmative 

N.  H.  divided.  Mas.  no.  C!  no.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  ay.  Del.  no. 
Ml  ay.    V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 

M'.  Qebrt  moved  "  that  in  the  election  of  President  by  the  House 
of  Representatives,  no  State  shall  vote  by  less  than  three  members, 
and  where  that  number  may  not  be  allotted  to  a  State,  it  shall  be 
made  up  by  its  Senators;  and  a  concurrence  of  a  majority  of  all 
the  Stntes  shall  be  necessary  to  make  such  choice."  Without  some 
such  provision  five  individuals  might  possibly  be  competent  to  an 
election;  these  being  a  majcrity  of  two  thirds  of  the  existing  number 
of  States ;  and  two  thirds  being  a  quorum  for  this  business. 

MT  Madison  2^  the  motion 

Mr  Read  observed  that  the  States  having  hue  one  member  only 
in  the  House  of  Rept  would  be  in  danger  of  having  no  vote  at  all 
in  the  election :  the  sickness  or  absence  either  of  the  Representative  or 
one  of  the  Senators  would  have  that  effect. 

W  Madison  replied  that,  if  one  member  of  the  House  of  Rep- 
resentatives should  be  left  capable  of  voting  for  the  State,  the 
states  having  one  Representative  only  would  still  be  subject  to 
that  danger.  He  thought  it  an  evil  that  so  small  a  number  at 
any  rate  should  be  authorized,  to  elect.  Corruption  would  be 
greatly  facilitated  by  it.  The  mode  itself  was  liable  to  this  further 
weighty  objection  tiiat  the  representatives  of  a  ulinority  of  the 
people,  might  reverse  the  choice  of  a  majority  of  the  States  and  of 
the  people.  He  wished  some  cure  for  this  inconvenieney  *  might  yet 
be  provided. 

Mr  OiBBT  withdrew  the  first  part  of  his  motion;  and  on  the, — 
Question  on  the  2?  part  viz.  "  and  a  ccmcurrence  of  a  majority  of 
all  the  States  shall  be  necessary  to  make  such  choice  "  to  follow  the 
words  "  a  member  or  members  from  two  thirds  of  the  States  "—It 
was  agreed  to  nem :  con : 

The  section  2.  (see  Sep!  4)  requiring  that  the  President  should  be 
a  natural-bom  Citizen,  &c  &  have  been  resident  for  fourteen  years, 
&  be  thirty  five  years  of  age,  was  agreed  to  nem:  con: 


>  In  the  tran«cript  the  rote  reads:  "New  Jcm^,  FsnniylTania,  MaryUnd, 
Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  ajre— «;  MaaRaehusettj,  Connecticut,  Delaware, 
North  Carolina,  no — 4;  New  Hampijiire,  divided." 

"  The  word  "  inconvenieney  "  is  changed  to  "  inconvenience  "  in  the  tranieript 


SESSION  OP  FEIDAY,  SEPTEMBEB  7,  1787  627 

P»'5  "r^y  "EP"^  "^  "«°1«««-    We  might  a>  ,«11  rm  th. 
th.t  mM  MbriM  teween  the  P™ddeM  t  rice.pr.^£^  SkTJ 

the  Senate,  which  would  be  bat  aeldom. 

jm  ^NDOLPH  concnmd  in  the  oppodtion  to  the  daiue. 

MT  WiLUAiisoN,  observed  that  rach  an  officer  as  vice-Preride«« 
wan  not  wanted.  He  was  introduced  only  for  the  «Se  oH  vSlSe 
^e  of  election  which  required  two  to  be  cho«.n  at  thfsS: 

nn  .?'•'  I^''' *«««**  th«  ««<»  Of  Vice-President  an  encroachment 

rtit;%"waV''  ^r^'  ""'  *'**  •*  ^^  *-  much Te  lZ 
lative  &  Executive,  which  as  weU  as  the  Judiciary  departme^ 
ought  to  be  kept  as  separate  as  possible.  He  toS^STt^  « 
press  his  dislike  of  any  reference  whatever  of  ^  ^  to^^ 
appomtments  to  either  branch  of  the  Legislature.  T  th^  o^^ 
hand  he  was  averse  to  vest  so  dang«rt,u.  a  power  in  the  F^idenJ 

Co2n  ,  •  "^""t '''  •^•^•^  ^*'  »>•  "w^d  thatTjri^ 
Council  of  MX  memben  to  the  preddimt  should  be  established  JTS 
chosen  for  mx  years  by  the  Senate,  two  out  of  the  BwSnt^'out  at 
^e  middle,  and  two  out  of  the  Southern  quarter,  of^e  uSn?  A  t^ 

LI  ^^'r  *ro  r^  »«»»d  year;  the  concurrence  of  the 
Senate  to  be  required  only  in  the  appointment  of  Amba««dor8  «d 
m  making  treaties,  which  are  more  of  a  legislative  mS^  'Z 
would  prevent  the  constant  sitting  of  the  sS,  ^^^e  ihou^ 
dargerous.  as  weU  as  keep  the  departments  separate  &  d^iir  it 
would  al.o  save  the  expence  of  constant  se«,i^  of  tht  Se  H 
had  he  said  always  considen>d  the  Senate  as  too  unwieldy  &  «! 

bein^  then  M^;,id?i^-        '""*"'°*  '^"  ^  *^«^  Pre.id«t  of  th«  S«.te' 
•  The  letter  «  •  '•  i.  rtricken  from  the  word  "  dep.rt««t.  "  in  the  Innwcrlpt. 


111 


628      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

penaive  for  appointing  oiBcera,  especially  the  amalleat,  mch  at  tide 
waiters  &c  He  had  not  reduced  his  idea  to  writing,  but  it  cotild  be 
easily  done  if  it  should  be  found  acceptable. 

On  the  question  shall  the  vice  President  be  ex  officio  President  of 
the  Senate  t 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pt  ay.  Del  ay.  Mas  no. 
V»  ay.    N.  C.  absJ    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

The  other  parts  of  the  same  Section  (3)  '  were  then  agreed  to. 

The  Section  4.— to  wit,  "  The  President  by  &  with  the  advice 
and  consent  of  the  Senate  shall  have  power  to  make  Treaties  &c  "* 

Mt  Wilson  moved  to  add,  after  the  word  "  Senate  "  the  words, 
"  and  House  of  Representatives."  As  treaties  he  said  are  to  have 
the  operation  of  laws,  they  ought  to  have  the  sanction  of  laws  also. 
The  circumstance  of  secrecy  in  the  business  of  treaties  formed  the 
only  objection;  but  this  he  thought,  so  far  as  it  was  inconsistent 
with  obtaining  the  Legislative  sanction,  was  outweighed  by  the  neces- 
sity of  the  latter. 

W  SmsMAN  thought  the  only  question  that  could  be  made  was 
whether  the  power  could  be  safely  trusted  to  the  Senate.  He  thou^t 
it  could;  and  that  the  necessity  of  secresy  in  the  case  of  treaties 
forbade  a  reference  of  them  to  the  whole  Legislature. 

Mt  PrrziMMONS  2^  the  motion  of  Mr  Wilson,  &  on  the  question 

N.  H.no.  Mas.no.  C'no.  N.J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.no.  M'?  no.  V^ 
no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.* 

The  first  sentence  as  to  making  treaties  was  then  Agreed  to:  nem: 
con: 

*"  He  shall  nominate  &c  Appoint  Ambassadors  &c." 

Mr  WUiSON  objected  to  the  mode  of  appointing,  as  blending  a 
branch  of  the  Legislature  with  the  Executive.  Good  laws  are  of  no 
effect  without  a  good  Executive;  and  there  can  be  no  good  Executive 
without  a  responsible  appointment  of  officers  to  execute.  Responsi- 
bility is  in  a  manner  destroyed  by  such  an  agency  of  the  Senate. 
He  would  prefer  the  council  pr-iosed  by  Col:  Mas(»,  provided  its 
advice  should  not  be  made  obligatory  on  the  President. 


In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Maasachusetti,  Con- 
necticut, Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Oeoroia,  aye— 8; 
New  .Jersey,  Maryland,  no— 2;  North  Carolina,  absent." 

•  The  figure  "  3  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•  pe  phrase  "  waa  then  taken  up  "  is  here  added  in  the  tranacript. 

In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Pennsylvania,  aye— 1;  New  Hampshire, 
Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey.  Delaware,  MaryUnd,  VinrinU.  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 10."  ^        >        b       > 

'  The  words  "  On  the  clause  "  are  here  inserted  in  the  trarscfipt. 


SESSION  OP  PEIDAY,  SEPTEMBER  7,  1787  529 

Mr  PiNKNET  was  agaiiut  joining  the  Senate  in  these  appoint- 
ments  except  in  the  instance  of  Ambassadors  whom » he  thought  onght 
not  to  be  appointed  by  the  President 

IK  Oovl  MoBRis  said  that  as  the  President  was  to  nominate,  there 
would  be  responsibility,  and  as  the  Senate  was  to  concur,  thens 
would  be  «cunty.  As  Congre.,  now  make  appointments  tLere  is 
no  responsibility.  •■  ^ic  « 

MI  GraBY.  The  idea  of  responsibility  in  the  nomination  to  offices 
ui  chimencal.  The  President  can  not  know  all  character,  and  can 
therefore  always  plead  ignorance. 

Mr  Kino.  As  the  idea  of  a  Council  proposed  by  Col.  Mason  has 
been  supported  by  M?  Wilson,  he  would  remark  that  most  of  the 
inconvenience  charged  on  the  Senate  are  incident  to  a  Council  of 
Advice  He  differed  from  those  who  thought  the  Senate  would  sit 
constantly.  He  did  not  suppose  it  was  meant  that  all  the  minute 
officers  were  to  be  appointed  by  the  Senate,  or  any  other  original 
source,  but  by  the  higher  officers  of  the  departments  to  which  they 
belong.  He  was  of  opinion  also  that  the  people  would  be  alarmed 
at  an  unnecessary  creation  of  new  Corps  which  must  increase  the 
expence  as  well  as  influence  of  the  Government. 

On  the  question  on  these  words  in  the  clause  viz-"  He  shaU  nomi- 
nate &  by  &  with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  shall  appoint 
ambassadors,  and  other  pubUc  ministers  (and  Consuls)  »  Judaes  of 
the  Supreme  Court  "•  Agreed  to  nem:  con:  the  insertion  of ''  and 
consuls     having  first  taken  place. 

of  «^U   g®..*""''*'*'"  °°  ^^^  following  words  "  And  all  other  officers 

v.^"  V^    ^'"•J'^-    ^-^y-    N.J.  ay.    Ptno.    Delay    M- ay 
^;ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.»  ^ 

On  motion  of  W.  Spaight-"  that  the  President  shall  have  power 
to  fill  up  all  vacancies  that  may  happen  during  the  recess  of  the 
senate  by  granting  Commissions  which  shall  expire  at  the  end  of  the 
next  Session  of  the  Senate  "    It  was  agreed  to  nem:  con- 

'Section  4.  "TJe  President  by  and  with  the  advice  and  consent 
ot  the  Senate  shall  have  power  to  make  Treaties  "— "  But  no  treaty 


'  The  r^  ..  .""^^  ,«•  ««»»V*''*^  ♦»  *'"'  tn'nw'-ipt  for  "  whom." 
•  Th^  Z^  "li*  .T!'  I  "'.'"■'«  *"»rted  in  the  traWript. 


680     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

shall  be  m«de  withmt  t\»  cofuent  of  two  thirds  of  ihs  memhtrs 
present  "— this  lact  *  being  before  the  House. 

Ml  Wii«ON  thoag^t  it  objectionable  to  require  the  eonoorrene* 
of  H  which  pata  it  in  *  th«  power  of  •  minoritjr  to  c<»itroal  the  wiU 
of  a  majority. 

If.  Kino  concnrred  in  the  objection;  remarking  that  aa  tht 
Executive  waa  here  joined  in  the  busineM,  there  waa  a  cheek  whieh 
did  not  exist  in  Congress  where  The  concurrence  of  H  waa  required. 

MI  Madison  moved  to  insert  after  the  word  •'  treaty  "  the  words 
"  except  treaties  of  peace  "  allowing  these  to  be  made  with  leas  diiB- 
culty  than  other  treaties— It  waa  agreed  to  nem:  eon: 

ilR  Madsson  then  moved  to  anthoriae  a  concurrence  of  two  thirdi 
of  the  Senate  to  mai^e  treaties  of  peace,  without  the  concurrence  of 
the  President."— The  President  he  said  would  necessarily  derive  so 
much  power  and  importance  from  a  state  of  war  that  he  mi^t  be 
tempted,  if  aathoriaed,  to  impede  a  treaty  of  peace.  Mt  Botub 
2*^  the  motion 

Mt  OoBHAx  thought  the  precaution  *  unnecessary  as  the  nu>mn^  gf 
carrying  on  the  war  wouU  not  be  in  the  hands  of  the  President, 
but  of  the  Legislature. 

Mr  Oov^  Morris  thought  the  power  of  the  President  in  this  oaae 
harmless;  and  that  no  peace  ought  to  be  made  without  the  cuiear^ 
rence  of  the  President,  who  waa  the  general  Onardian  of  the  Nati<»ial 
interesta 

Mr  Butler  was  strenuoua  for  the  moti<m,  aa  a  necessary  security 
against  ambitious  ft  corrupt  Presidents.  He  mentioned  the  late 
perfidious  policy  of  the  Statholder  in  Holland;  and  the  artifices  of 
the  Duke  of  Marlbro'  to  pndong  the  war  of  which  he  had  the  man- 
agement. 

MI  Oerrt  was  of  opinion  that  in  treaties  of  peace  a  greater  rather 
than  less  proportion  of  votes  was  necessary,  than  in  other  treaties. 
In  Treaties  of  peace  the  dearest  interests  will  be  at  stab,  as  the 
fisheries,  territory  &c.  In  treaties  of  peace  also  there  is  more  dander 
to  the  extremities  of  the  C<Hitinent,  of  being  tiacrificed,  *Ii*ti  cu  any 
other  occasions. 

M*.  WiLLUMSON  thought  that  Treaties  of  peace  should  be  guarded 
at  least  by  requiring  the  same  concurrence  as  in  other  Treaties. 

On  the  motion  of  MT  Madison  ft  W,  Butler 


>  The  words  "  beinfr  eoniidered,  and  the     .jt  cUom  **  an  nibatitutad  ia  th« 
tranacript  for  "  this  lut." 

'The  word  "Into"  ii  inbstitntcd  to  the  tranicript  for  "In." 
..      '  ^*^*  tranecript  the  word  "  precaution "  is  stricken  otrt  and  the  word 
"  aaeunty  "  is  written  abore  it. 


SESSION  OP  FBIDAT,  SEPTEMBEB  7,  1787  581 


Ft  no.    Del  no.    W  ay. 


N.  H.  no.    Mu.  no.    C!  na    N.  J.  no. 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  the  part  of  the  cUuae  concerning  treaties  amended  by  the 
exception  aa  to  Treaties  of  peace, 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V»  ay.    N.  C.  ay.   8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.« 

• "  and  may  require  the  opinion  in  writing  of  the  principal  officer 
in  each  of  the  Ezecative  Departments,  upon  any  subject  relating  to 
the  duties  of  their  respective  <rfBees,"  being  before  the  House 

Col :  Masok  •  said  that  in  rejecting  a  C!ouneil  to  the  President  we 
were  about  to  try  an  experiment  on  which  the  most  despotic  Gov- 
ernments had  never  ventured.  The  Grand  Signor  himself  had  his 
Divan.  He  moved  to  postpone  the  consideration  of  the  clause  in 
order  to  take  up  the  following 

"  That  it  be  an  instiniction  to  the  Omimittee  of  the  States  to  pre- 
pare a  clause  or  clauses  for  establishing  an  Executive  Council,  as  a 
Council  of  State,  for  the  President  of  the  U.  States,  to  consist  of  six 
members,  two  of  which  from  the  Eastern,  two  from  the  middle,  and 
two  from  the  Southern  States,  with  a  Rotation  and  duration  of 
office  similar  to  those  of  the  Senate;  such  Council  to  be  appointed 
by  the  Legislature  or  by  the  Senate." 

Doctor  FsANKUN  2^  the  motion.  We  seemed  he  said  too  much 
to  fear  cabals  in  appointments  by  a  number,  and  to  have  too  much 
confidence  in  those  of  single  persons.  Experioice  shewed  that  caprice, 
the  intrigues  of  favorites  &  mistresses,  Ac*  were  nevertheless  the 
means  most  prevalent  in  mcnarchies.  Among  instances  of  abuse  in 
such  modes  of  appointment,  he  mentioned  the  many  bad  Governors 
appointed  in  G.  B.  for  the  Colonies.  He  thou^t  a  Council  would  not 
only  be  a  check  on  a  bad  President  but  be  a  relief  to  a  good  one. 

MI  Govt  MoBRiB.  The  question  of  a  Council  was  considered  in 
the  Committee,  where  it  was  judged  that  the  Preaid.'  by  persuading 
his  Council,  to  c<mcur  in  his  wrong  meaaures,  would  acquire  their 
protection  for  them. 

*Iii  tht  printed  Joonwl,  Mr  IfadUon  to  erroacoiMly  ralMtitntod  for  Col: 


In  tha  tranieript  the  vote  nuda:  "  MuylMid,  Sonth  Carolinik,  GmtkU,  aye 
—3;  New  HMnpehire,  MmeeMkoeetta.  Coonecticut,  New  JeraeT,  PenurlTuU. 
DeUware,  VlrgtaU,  North  CaroUiia.  no— 8."  ' 

'In  the  tranaeript  the  vote  nadai  "New  Banpahire,  UaMachnaetta,  Con- 
Beetient,  Delaware,  Ibryland,  ^rgiala,  North  Carolina,  South  CaroUaa,  av«— <; 
New  Jersey,  PenniylTania,  Georgia,  no—*." 

*  The  word*  "  The  elanae "  are  here  inaerted  in  the  traaaeript 

'The  character  "Ac"  ia  oaitted  in  the  traaacrtpt. 


1-  s , 


532      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

IP  Wilson  approved  of  a  Council  in  preference  to  making  the 
Senate  a  party  to  appointm*t 

IP  DicuNSON  waa  for  a  Council.  It  w1  bo  a  lingular  thing  if 
the  mcaauren  of  the  Executive  were  not  to  undergo  some  previoua 
diacuaaion  before  the  Preaident. 

IP  Madison  waa  in  favor  of  the  inatruction  to  the  Committee 
propoaed  by  Col:  Maaon. 

The  motion  of  Mr  >  Maaon  waa  negatived.  Mary^"  hy.  8.  C.  ay. 
Geo.  ay—  N.  H.  no.  Maa.  no.  Ci  no.  N.  J.  no  P?  no.  Del.  no 
V!  no.    N  C  no.» 

On  the  queation,*  "  authoriaing  the  Preaident  to  call  for  the 
opiniona  of  the  Heads  of  Departments,  in  writing  ":  it  paaaed  in  the 
affirmative,  N.  H.  only  being  no.* 

The  clause  was  then  unanimoualy  agreed  to— 

ap.  WiLLUMSoN  &  MI  Spaioht  moved  "  that  no  Treaty  of  Peace 
affecting  Territorial  righta  sW  be  made  without  the  concurrence  of 
two  thirds  of  the  members  of  the  Senate  present. 

IP  Kmo.  It  will  be  necessary  to  look  out  for  aecurities  for  some 
other  rights,  if  this  principle  be  established;  he  moved  to  extend  the 
motion—'*  to  all  present  rights  of  the  U.  States." 

Adjourned 


Sattjbdat  September  8^    In  Convention 

The  last  Report  of*  Committee  of  Eleven  (see  Sep?  4)  waa 
resumed. 

Mr  Kino  moved  to  strike  out  the  "  exception  of  Treaties  of  peace  " 
from  the  general  clause  requiring  two  thirds  of  the  Senate  for 
making  Treaties 

Ml  Wilson  wished  the  requisition  of  two  thirds  to  be  atruck  out 
altogether  If  the  majority  cannot  be  trusted,  it  waa  a  proof,  aa 
observed  by  W  Ghorum,  that  we  were  not  fit  for  one  Society. 

A  reconsideration  of  the  whole  clause  was  agreed  to. 

M!  Gov.  Morris  was  ag?  striking  out  the  "  exception  of  Treaties 

•  Not  to  Btated  in  the  Printed  Journal ;  but  oomf ormable  to  the  result  after- 
vardi  appearing. 


'  The  word  "  Col."  is  gubstituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  Mr." 

'In  the  tranacript  the  vote  reada:   "Maryland.  South  Carolina,  Oeorsia, 

aye— .1;  New  H«mp«hire,  Masuachuietta,  Connecticut,  New  Jeraev,  PennaTWaDia. 

DeUware.  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  no-*."  '   ^^wuw^itwh., 

•  The  word  "  for  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
The  word  "  the  "  Is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  8EPTBMBEB  8,  17»7        S83 

of  peace  "  If  two  thirds  of  the  Senate  ehoold  ie  required  for  pewse. 
the  Legielature  wiU  'yt  nnwUling.  to  make  war  for  that  reaMn  on 
account  of  the  Piwerie.  or  the  MieuMippi,  the  two  creat  objeeU 
of  the  Union.  Beudn,  if  a  majority  of  the  Senate  be  for  peaee. 
and  are  not  aUowed  to  make  it,  they  will  be  apt  to  effect  their 
purpows  in  the  more  diugreeable  mode,  of  negativing  the  rappliei 
for  the  war.  *^ 

Mr  WnxuittON  remarked  that  Treaties  are  to  be  m*»de  in  the 
branch  of  the  Gov.*  where  there  may  be  a  majority  of  the  Sutea 
without  a  majority  of  the  people.  Eight  men  may  be  a  majority  of 
a  quorum,  &  should  not  have  the  power  to  decide  the  conditions 
of  peace.  There  would  be  no  danger,  that  the  exposed  States,  as 
S.  Carolina  or  Georgia,  would  urge  an  improper  war  for  the  West- 
em  Territory. 

Mt  WiLBON  If  two  thirds  are  necessary  to  make  peace,  the 
minority  may  perpetuate  war,  against  the  sense  of  the  majority 

Mr  Gebut  enlarged  on  the  danger  of  putting  the  f-wential  rights 
of  the  Union  in  the  hands  of  so  small  a  number  as  a  majority  of  the 
Senate,  representing,  perhaps,  not  one  fifth  of  the  people.  The 
Senate  will  be  corrupted  by  foreign  influence. 

M:  Shebiian  was  ag!«  leaving  the  rights  established  by  the  Treaty 
of  peace  to  the  Senate,  &  moved  to  annex  a  "  proviso  that  no  such 
rights  sh*  be  ceded  without  the  sanction  of  the  Legislature. 

Mr  Govt  MoBKis  seconded  the  ideas  of  Mr  Sherman. 

M^  Madison  observed  that  it  had  been  too  easy  in  the  present  Con- 
gress to  make  Treaties  altho'  nine  States  were  required  for  the 
purpose. 

On  the  questi<m  for  striking*  "  except  Treaties  of  peace  " 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  no.  K  ay.  Del.  no.  M*  no 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

iK  Wilson  &  Mr  Datton  move  to  strike  out  the  clause  requiring 
two  thirds  of  the  Senate  for  making  Treaties— on  which, 

N.  H.  no.    Mas.  no.    C\  div^    N.  J.  no.    Pt  no    Del.  ay.    Ml  no 
Vf  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.« 

Mr  BtjTLiDGB  &  m  GiSBBT  move  that  "  no  Treaty*  be  made  with- 


■  The  word  "  out "  U  here  iiiMrt«d  in  the  transcript. 

•In  the  tranicript  the  vote  read*:  "New  riampihire,  MftiMchuntU.  Can. 
ne^ticut,  Penn.ylv«i».  Virgini..  North  C.roUmi.  S<SlS  CsrouX  Gwi.  aw 
—8;  New  Jeney,  TViaware,  Maryland,  no— 3."  ^^  "wrgia,  aye 

"In  the  tranicript  the  vote  reads:   "Delaware    aT»— !•   V«w  n.m».k(~ 

^uth  Ca"^,t  ^   'erse^Penneylvania.  U^hZ]  Vit^LX^^SS^^ 
south  Carolina,  Geortna,  bo— fl;  Connecticut,  divided."  v«wui». 

The  word  "  ihall  "  i»  here  inierted  in  the  tranicript. 


834     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

oat  the  eonMnt  of  H  of  aU  tho  membeis  of  the  8«iMt«  "-«eeofdiM 
to  the  example  in  the  preeent  Congf 

Mr  Oborum.    There  ia  a  difference  in  the  eaae,  aa  the  Preaident'a 
eonarnt  wUl  alao  be  neeeaaarjr  in  the  new  Gov.' 

On  the  qoeation 

N.  H.  no.    Maaa.  no.    (IP  Geny  ajr)    CI  no.    N.  J.  no.    P»  no 
Del.  no.    Ml  no.    Vf  no.    N.  C.  ajr.    S.  C.  ay.    Qto.  ajr.' 

Mr  Sha«i»ak  movl  that  no  Treaty  •  be  made  without  a  Majority 
of  the  whole  nomber  of  the  Senate.    M^  GEa«T  aeconded  him. 

M'.  WiLLUiMON.    Thia  will  be  leaa  aecurity  than  h  u  now  it- 
quired. 

M;  SHxiiMAir.    It  will  be  leaa  embarraaaing. 

On  the  question,  it  paaaed  in  the  negative. 

N.  H.  no.    Maa.  ay.    C!  ay.    N.  J.  no.    P*  no.    Del.  ay.    Ml  no 
V?  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Mr  Madison  movl  that  a  Quorum  of  the  Senate  consiat  of  %  of 
'HI  the  membera. 

M*  Govt  Mo«i8— Thia  wiU  put  it  in  the  power  of  one  man  to 
break  up  a  Quorum. 

Mr  Madison,    Thia  may  happen  to  any  Quorum. 

On  the  Question  it  paaaed  in  the  negative 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CI  no.  N.  J.  no.  P«  no.  Del.  no.  M^  ay 
Vay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Gea  ay.« 

W  WiLLUMsoN  ft  M!  Gbmt,  mov^  "  that  no  Treaty  shf  be  made 
withi  previous  notice  to  the  members,  ft  a  reaaonable  time  for  their 
attending." 

On  the  Queation 

All  the  States  no,  except  N.  C.    S.  C.  ft  Geo.  ay. 

On  a  question  on  •  clause  of  the  Report  of  the  Com?  of  Eleven 
relating  to  Treatiea  by  %  of  the  Senate.  All  the  States  were  ay- 
except  Pf  N.  J.  ft  Geo.  no. 

m  Gerbt  mov<  that  no  offlcer»  be  app?  but  to  offices  created  by 


In  the  trmnieript  the  Tot«  nadi:  •■  North  C»rolin».  South  CaroUn.,  OtorgU, 
•y.-3,  New  Hampthir..  MiMMchturtt.  (Mr.  Gerry,  .ye),  CoimectteirirNlw 
Jersey,  PennaylvanU,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Viriinla.  n»-S  "         """"="«"•  "•» 

I  The  word  "  ihall "  U  here  isMrted  in  the  tranaeript. 
S««th  r.l„«-I'°/S!!E!i.*''*  T?*^'^*=  ''M«»«chiiaetta.  Coniiectl«it.  Dataware, 

K«rvSi.W^h'^';^i«;''.L5r''"«'  ^'^  '"^'  ^•^•-'•' 

^'h^"ca*^!.r«^^^ 

Naw  Jerrcy,  PenniTlvania,  Delawai*,  no— «."  '  ""■«'»«""' 

'  The  word  "  the  "  ia  here  iuertwl  in  the  tranaeript 


SESSION  OF  8ATUBDAT.  8EPTBMBIB  8,  1717       6SS 

the  CoiMtitotion  or  bj  Uw"— This  wm  vvJMtMl  m  nnnnriMMTj  by 
liz  no's  A  fivt  ays;' 

The  Ajrea.  Mm.  C!  N.  J.  N.  C.  Geo.— Nom.  N.  H.  Pt:  Dd.  M<  7? 
S.  C 

The  eUoie  referrinf  to  the  Seiute,  the  trial  of  impeeohments  aff 
the  Preeident,  for  Treaaon  *  bribery,  waa  taken  up. 

Col.  MAaoH.  Why  ie  the  prortaion  reatrained  to  Treaaon  A 
bribery  onlyt  Treaaon  aa  defined  in  the  Conatitution  wiU  not  reach 
many  great  and  danfenma  offeneea.  Haatinga  ia  not  guilty  t 
Treaaon.  Attempu  to  anbrert  the  Conatitntion  may  not  be  Tn-js^n 
as  above  defined.  Aa  bille  of  attainder  which  have  aaved  the  B  :wL 
Conatitntion  are  forbidden,  it  ia  the  more  neceaaary  to  ezter.  i  n  • 
power  of  impeachmenta.  He  movl  to  add  after  "  bribe''-  '  .r 
maladminiatratiou."    IP.  Qibbt  aeeonded  him. 

Mr  Madison  So  vagae  a  term  will  be  equivalent  to  a  te^i-  e  t : r 
ing  pleasure  of  the  Senate. 

Mt  Gov?  Mmws,  it  wiU  not  be  put  in  force  ft  can  d.  uo  .  ar.> . 
An  election  of  every  four  years  will  prevent  maladminiatrat"... 

Col.  Mason  withdrew  "  maladministration  "  ft  aubstitntea  "  othur 
high  crimes  ft  misdemesnora  agf  the  State  " 

On  the  queation  thus  altered 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  M4  ay. 
V«ay.    N.  Cay.    S.  C.  ay.»    Geo.  ay.» 

M^  Madison,  objected  to  a  trial  of  the  Preeident  by  the  Senate, 
especially  aa  he  waa  to  be  impeached  by  the  other  branch  of  the 
Legislature,  and  for  any  act  which  mi^t  be  called  a  misdemeanor. 
The  President  under  theae  eireumstancea  waa  made  improperly  de- 
pendent. He  would  prefer  the  Supreme  Court  for  the  trial  of  im- 
peachments, or  rather  a  tribunal  of  which  that  should  form  a  part. 

Mr  Got'.  Morus  thought  no  other  tribunal  than  the  Senate  oould 
be  trusted.  The  supreme  Court  were  too  few  in  number  and  might 
be  warped  or  corrupted.  He  waa  agf  a  dependence  of  the  Executive 
on  the  Legislature,  considering  the  Legislative  tyranny  the  great  dan- 
ger to  be  apprehended;  but  there  could  be  no  danger  that  the  Senate 
would  aay  untruly  on  their  oaths  that  the  President  waa  guilty 

*  la  tlM  priatad  Jounel.  8.  CuoUb»— no. 


.'  ^vT*"  ^."i  Bo'i  *  «T»  ayw  "  are  rtriekM  oat  ia  th*  tnaMript. 

North  rl^ll^i^li'^  '^  'r»"i"  M^««*»«rtt^  CoBa«sUcut.  New  Jermj. 
North  ^roliaa,  OcorgU,  ayfr-O;  New  Haapdiire,  PmniylTaaU.  Dei«wai4 
MaryUad.  Virginia,  South  Caroliaa,  no-6."  """•yiT»m«,   ueiaware, 

.-t/iS  S*  *^*^il'>  ?^  '"*•  '**•'  "*f**  HampAire.  ICaMaohoMtta.  Cob- 
Mcticut,  MairUad,  f irgiala,  North  Oaraliaa.  Sooth  ^umJ^OwSLv*^! 
Ntw  Jmty,  PUuuylvaaia,  IMawara,  »>-*»  »*™"».    «««Iia.  aj»-o» 


536      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

of  Crimea  or  facts,  e^eciaUy  as  in  four  yeare  he  can  be  turned  out 

MI  PiNKNET  disapproved  of  making  the  Senate  the  Court  of  Im- 
peachments, as  rendering  the  President  too  dependent  on  the  Legis- 
lature. If  he  opposes  a  favorite  law,  the  two  Houses  wUI  combine 
agr  him,  and  under  the  influence  of  heat  and  faction  throw  him 
out  of  ofiSce. 

M'.  WiLUAMSON  thought  there  was  more  danger  of  too  much  lenity 
than '  too  much  rigour  towards  the  President,  considering  the  number 
of  cases  m  which  the  Senate  was  associated  with  the  President. 

M'  Sherman  regarded  the  Supreme  Court  as  improper  to  try  the 
President,  because  the  Judges  would  be  appointed  by  him. 

On  motion  by  M^  Madison  to  strike  out  the  words^"  by  the 
Senate  "  after  the  word  "  conviction  " 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.no.  C?  no.  N.  J.  no.  P«  ay.  Del.no.  M*  no. 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

In  the  amendment  of  Col:   Mason  just  agreed  to,   the  word 
State     after  the  words  "  misdemeanors  against  "  was  struck  out 
and  the  words  "  United  States  "  inserted  unanimously,*  in  order  U> 
remove  ambiguity. 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  ♦  clause  as  amended, 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Cont  ay  N.  J.  ay.  P»  no.  'oel  ay  W  ay 
Vt  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 

TT  f^v^.^'r'  "  "^^^  vi««-President  and  other  Civil  oflBcers  of  the 
L.  S.  shal  be  removed  from  office  on  impeachment  and  conviction  as 
aforesaid  was  added  to  the  clause  on  the  subject  of  impeach- 
ments.  "^ 

The  clause  of  the  report  made  on  the  5«? '  Sep:  &  postponed  was 
taken  up,  to  wit-"  All  bilU  for  raising  revenue  shall  originate  in 
the  House  of  Representatives;  and  shall  be  subject  to  alteratiomi  and 
amendments  by  the  Senate.  No  money  shall  be  drawn  from  the 
Treasury  but  in  consequence  of  appropriations  made  by  law  " 

It  was  moved  to  strike  out  the  words  "  and  shall  be  subject  to 
alterations  and  amendments  by  the  Senate  "  and  insert  the  words 

'.TiU'^r'?  ""' •  I' .''J'*  '°«''*«*  '"  t*-  transcript. 
In  the  transcnpt  the  vote  reads:   "  Pennavlvanl*    VSroini.    .....^o     w 

Hampshire   Massachusetts.  Connecticut.  NW  Sy!  Itela^T^   'SaA'^t;^   N^^ 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 9  »  ^    "eiaware,  Maryland,  North 

re.d^^u^«*i;T„*::^,V""'-'«'»''y''  •«  *— Po-i  •-  th.  tra„«>,ipt  to 
•  1  he  word  "  the"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

The  word     of     is  here  inserted  in  the  tranwiript.  •™="P*- 


SESSION  OP  SATUBDAT,  SEPTEMBER  8,  1787        537 

used  in  the  Conrtitution  of  Maauchuaetts  on  the  same  aubject-' 
out  the  Senate  may  propose  or  concur  with  amendments  as  in 
other  bills  "—which  was  agreed  too  nem:  con: 

On  the  question  On  the  first  part  of  the  clause—  "  AU  bills  for 
raising  revenue  shaU  originate  in  the  house  of  BepresentatlTes  "• 

m  ^'  \'^A  ^^  •^-    ^  "y-    ^■^'^    ^  V-    I>^  no.    M*  no. 
Vtay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

M'.  Govt  MoB«m  moved  to  add  to  clause  (3) «  of  the  report  made 
ra  Sepi  4.'  the  wordi  '<  and  every  member  ahaU  be  on  oath  "  which 
being  agreed  to,  and  a  question  taken  on  the  clause  so  amended  vi*- 
The  Senate  of  the  U.  S.  shaU  have  power  to  try  all  impeach- 
ments; but  no  person  shaU  be  convicted  without  the  concurrence  of 
two  thirds  of  the  members  present;  and  every  member  shall  be  on 
oath 

V!  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.» 

m  Gebrt  repeated  his  motion  above  made  on  this  day  in  the 
form  foUowing  "  The  LegisUture  shall  have  the  sole  right  of  estab- 
lishing offices  not  herein »  provided  for,"  which  was  again  nenr 
tived:  Mas.  Con?  &  Geo.  only  being  ay. 

M:  M"Henbt  obwjrved  that  the  President  had  not  yet  been  any 
where  authorised  to  convene  the  Senate,  and  moved  to  amend  Art  X 
sect  2.  by  striking  out  the  words  "  he  may  convene  them  [the  Legis- 
lature]  on  extraordinary  occasions  "  &  insert  "  He  may  convene 
both  or  either  of  the  Houses  on  extraordinary  occasions."  This  he 
added  would  also  provide  for  the  case  of  the  Senate  being  in  Ses- 
sion at  the  time  of  convening  the  Legislature. 

Mt  Wilson  said  he  should  vote  ag?  the  motion,  because  it  im- 
plied  that  the  senate  might  be  in  Session,  when  the  Legislature  was 
not,  which  he  thought  improper. 

•The  word  ••yU"  it  here  iiuertcd  in  the  tnuMcript  — — 

•  In  the  truacript  the  vote  read*:    "New  Hunpihire.  llMMchiuetta    Ton 

"clau^'sr""^  "*'^  ^^  "'•"•"   •"   .ubrtltuted   in   the   trmiucript   for 

for  "8^?""*'    "**'"  '""^''  **'  Septemhw"  are  rabetitnted  in  the  tnmeeript 

necti'cS?.  N^TI^!?*  ^?  '"*'  r^.:  "New  H.mp.Wre,  V»M^ha,etU,  Con. 
GteorSL   «!L.    S^^'   »«>*7»«.  Man-land,   North   C.rolin*.   South   CaroUns, 
7n?t  'y*"*!  Pennsylvania,  Virginia,  no— 2." 
The  word  "  heretofore"  U  tttbetituted  in  the  tranicript  for  "hmin." 


to. 


538      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Oq  the  qnestion 

N.  H.  ay.  Maa.  no.  C!  ay.  N.  J,  ay.  P*  no.  Del.  ay.  M<  ay 
V!  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.' 

A  Committee  waa  then  appointed  by  Ballot  to  revise  the  stUe  of 
and  arrange  the  artidea  which  had  been  agreed  to  by  the  Hooae. 
The  committee  consisted  of  W  Johnson,  M5  Hamilton,  MT  Got*. 
Morris,  M!  Madison  and  M!  King. 

MT  WiLLUMSON  moved  that  previous  to  this  worit  of  the  Com- 
mittee the  clause  relating  to  the  number  of  the  House  of  RepresentSr 
tives  shI  be  reconsidered  for  the  purpose  of  increasing  the  number. 

W-  Madison  2*?*  the  Motion 

Mr  Shirman  opposed  it.  he  thouf^t  the  provision  on  that  sub- 
ject amply  suiBcient 

Col:  Hamilton  expressed  himself  with  great  earnestness  and 
anxiety  in  favor  of  the  moticm.  He  avowed  himself  a  friend  to  a 
vigorous  Qovemment,  but  would  declare  at  the  same  time,  that  *  he 
held  it  essential  that  the  popular  branch  of  it  should  be  on  a  broad 
foundation.  He  was  seriously  of  opinion  that  the  House  of  Represen- 
tatives was  on  so  narrow  a  scale  as  to  be  really  dangerous,  and  to 
warrant  a  jealousy  in  the  people  for  their  liberties.  He  remarked 
that  the  connection  between  the  President  &  Senate  would  tend  to 
perpetuate  him,  by  corrupt  influence.  It  was  the  more  necessary  on 
this  account  th-xt  a  numerous  representation  in  the  other  branch  of 
the  Legislature  should  be  establi^ed. 

On  the  motion  of  W.  Williamson  to  reccmsider,  it  was  negatived 

•  N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  Ct  no.  N.  J.  no.  Ft  ay,  Del  ay.  M^  ay. 
V*ay.   N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.no.* 

Adji 


Monday  Sep?  10. 1787  *    In  Convbntion 

Mt  Gi.i«T  moved  to  reconsider  Art  XIX.  viz.  "On  the  ^plicft- 
tion  of  the  Legislatures  of  two  thirds  of  the  States  in  the  Union,  for 

•Thta  motion  &  rote  are  entered  on  the  Printed  ionmal  of  tlie 
Boming. 


T.~I'°rS*  trwiMrtpt  tlie  rote  re^e:  "New  RamMhire,  Connecticut,  New 
Jerw>y,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Nortli  Carolina,  OeorKiaTaye— 7:  MaaMclinMtte. 
Penntylvania.  Virginia,  Sonth  Carolina,  no-4."  y«- ^ .   ««~cniiieTO, 

•  The  word  "  that "  is  omitted  in  the  tranacrijrt. 

f!  .  «  *5t  *I*»«7lpt  th*  vote  reads:  "Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Vir- 
inU,  North  Carolina,  aye— S;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New 
ertey.  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— «." 

•  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omftted  in  the  transcript 


8EMI0N  OP  MONDAT,  BBPTEMBEB  10,  1787         SS9 

an  amendment  of  this  ConBtitatira,  the  Legialatare  of  the  U.  S.  shall 
call  a  Conrtntion  for  that  purpose."   [see  Aug.  6.]  ' 

This  Constitution  he  said  is  to  be  paramount  to  the  State  Constitu- 
tions. It  tdlown,  hence,  from  this  article  that  two  thirds  of  the  States 
may  obtain  a  Convention,  a  majority  of  which  can  bind  the  Union 
to  innovations  that  may  subvert  the  State-Constitutions  altogether. 
He  adied  whether  this  was  a  situation  proper  to  be  run  into. 

Mt  Haiulton  2*r«  the  motion,  but  he  said  with  a  different  view 
from  W.  Gerry.  He  did  not  object  to  the  consequence  stated  by  M» 
Gerry.  There  was  no  greator  evil  in  subjecting  the  people  of  the 
U.  S.  to  the  major  voiee  than  the  people  of  a  particular  State.  It 
had  been  wished  by  many  and  was  much  to  have  been  desired  that 
an  easier  node  for »  introducing  amendments  had  been  provided  by 
the  artic)  «  of»  Confederation.  It  was  equally  desireable  now  that 
an  easy  mode  should  be  established  for  supplying  defects  which  will 
probably  appear  in  the  New  Syston.  The  mode  proposed  was  not 
adequate.  The  State  Legislatures  will  not  apply  for  alterations  but 
with  a  view  to  increase  their  own  powers  The  National  Legislature 
will  be  the  first  to  perceive  and  will  be  most  sensible  to  the  necessity 
of  amendments,  and  ought  alao  to  be  empowered,  whenever  two  thirds 
of  each  branch  should  concur  to  call  a  Convention.  There  could  be 
no  danger  in  giving  this  power,  as  the  people  would  finally  decide 
in  the  case. 

Mr  Madison  remarked  on  the  vagueness  of  the  terms,  "  call  a 
Convention  for  the  purpose,"  as  snffieient  reason  for  reconsidering 
the  article.  How  was  a  Convention  to  be  formed  f  by  what  rule  de- 
cide t    what  the  force  of  its  actsf 

On  the  motion  of  MJ  Gerry  to  reeonsider 

N.  H.  div^  Mas.  ay.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Del.  ay,  M*  ay. 
Vf  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Oeo.  ay.« 

HP  Shkrhan  moved  to  add  to  the  article  "  or  the  LegisUture  may 
propose  amendments  to  the  sevend  States  for  their  approbation,  but 
no  amendments  shall  be  binding  until  consented  to  by  the  several 
States." 

M!  GxiotT  2fl^  the  motion 

M!  Wilson  moved  to  insert  "  two  thirds  of  "  before  the  words 


'  In  tlM  traBMript  the  date  readi:  "  the  lixth  of  Auffust." 

•The  word  "of'  ii  found  in  the  timnteript  in  ptace  of  " for." 

•  The  word  "  the  "  is  here  intoted  in  the  traneeript 

•In  the  tranicript  the  vote  reads:  " Maeeaehuiette,  Connecticut,  Pennarl- 
vanU,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  CaroUca.  Georsia. 
aye-»;  New  JerM^,  no— 1;  New  Hampdiir*,  divided." 


r 


640      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


which   amendment   to  the   motion   of 


if. 


P?  ay.    Del.  ay.    M"?  ay. 


"  several   States  "—on 
Sherman 

N.  H.  ay.    Mas.  no.    CI  no.    N.  J.  no, 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  na    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.^ 

W  Wilson  then  moved  to  insert  '•  three  fourths  of  "  before  "  the 
several  Sts  "  which  was  agreed  to  nem:  con: 

Mr  Madison  moved  to  postpone  the  consideration  of  the  amended 
proposition  in  order  to  take  up  the  following, 

"The  Legislature  of  the  U.  S.  whenever  two  thirds  of  both 
Houses  shall  deem  necessary,  or  on  the  application  of  two  thirds  of 
the  Legislatures  of  the  several  States,  shall  propose  amendments  to 
this  Constitution,  which  shaU  be  valid  to  ail  intents  and  purposes  as 
part  thereof,  when  the  same  shaU  have  been  ratified  by  three  fourths 
at  least  of  the  Legislatures  of  the  several  States,  or  by  Conventions 
m  three  fourths  thereof,  as  one  or  the  other  mode  of  ratification  may 
be  proposed  by  the  Legislature  of  the  U  8 :  "  • 

Mr  Hamilton  2"?"  the  motion. 

MT  RDTLnwE  said  he  never  could  agree  to  give  a  power  by  which 
the  articles  relating  to  slaves  might  be  altered  by  the  States  not 
interested  m  that  property  and  prejudiced  against  it.  In  order  to 
obviate  this  objection,  these  words  were  added  to  the  proposition  •  • 
provided  thac  no  amendmenU  which  may  be  aade  prior  to  the 
year  1808,  shall  m  any  manner  affect  the  4  &  5  sections  of  the  VII 
article    —The  postponement  being  agT«ed  to. 

On  the  question  on  the  proposition  of  W  Madiao'.  &  M*  HamUton 
as  amended 

N.H.div^  Mas.  ay  CUy.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  «y.  Del  na  Ml  ay. 
V»  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo  ay.» 

Mt  Gerry  moved  to  reconsider  art:  XXI  and  XXII.  from  the 
latter  of  wh.eh  "  for  the  approbation  of  Cong-."  had  been  struck 
out  He  objected  to  proceeding  to  change  the  Government  without 
the  approbation  of  Congress,  as  being  improper  and  giving  just 
umbrage  to  that  body.  He  repeated  his  objections  atoo  to  an  annul- 
ment of  the  confederation  with  so  little  scruple  or  formality. 

rf  .Jl^TT^.''"'***  fV^^  J?*""*  ^*'«  Buceeeding  proyigo  as  to  >ertioiia  4  k  B 
of  artiVII' moved  by  Mr  Rutlidge.  part  of  the  p?opo.ition  of  MTilSi JL 


w.r»' ' Va^/'S""^!^'.  tl-^  *"««  «*d«:    "New  Hampshire,  Pennaylvania    Dela- 

Penn«v?vlnU    M."^ii:L'''v-"*?  '"^If^  "  MaB»a.hu«.tt..  Conneotiout.  New  Je«ey, 

--9    De^awirp  n!Z,     V       5'""'  t""^^  famlina.  South  Carolina,  GeorgU,  ar; 

»,  Lteianare,  no — 1;  New  Hampshire,  divided."  *        ' 


tvwscim'fflf^iijv 


JftisJ'ai- 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  SBPTEMBEB  10,  1787         541 

MS  Hamilton  concurred  with  Mt  G«ny  m  to  the  indecorum  of 
not  requiring  the  approbation  of  Congr««.  He  coniidered  thia  m  . 
nece««ry  ingredient  in  the  tran«,ction.  He  thought  it  witmg  al«, 
to  aUow  nine  Statea  aa  provided  by  art  XXI.  to  inatitutea  new 
Ooyemment  on  the  ruina  of  the  exiting  one.  He  w-  p,x,pL  i  I 
better  modification  of  the  two  article.  (XXI  &  XXH)  that  the  plan 
should  be  sent  to  Congrea,  in  order  that  the  aame  if  «,proved  by 
hem  may  be  communicated  to  the  State  Legialaturea.  to  the  end 
that  they  may  refer  it  to  State  Conventiona;  each  Legidature  de- 
claring  that  if  the  Convention  of  the  Sute  should  think  the  plan 
ought  to  take  effect  among  nine  ratifying  States,  the  aame  ahl  take 
effect  accordingly.  ^^ 

Mr  GoRHAM.  Some  States  will  aay  that  nine  States  ahall  be 
rafflcient  to  establish  the  plan,  others  will  require  unanimity  for  the 
purpose.  And  the  different  and  conditional  nrtiflcationa  wiU  defeat 
tbe  plan  altogether. 

Mr  HAicn.TON.    No  Convention  convinced  of  the  necessity  of  the 

Ii"°lllr'  1°  ^^^^^  '*  '^^*  **  ^^'^  *'^°Pt'«>'^  by  nine  States.  He 
thought  this  mode  less  exceptionable  than  the  one  proposed  in  the 
article,  and »  would  attain  the  same  end.  ^^ 

m  P^MMONs  remarked  that  the  words  "  for  their  approba- 
te had  been  struck  out  in  order  to  save  Congress  from  the  neces- 
sity  of  an  Act  mconsurtent  with  the  Articles  of  Confederation  under 
which  they  held  their  authority. 

M^  Randolph  declared,  if  no  change  should  be  made  in  the«  this 
part  of  the  plan,  he  should  be  obliged  to  dissent  from  the  whole  of  it 
He  had  from  the  beginning  he  said  been  convinced  that  radical 
changes  m  the  system  of  the  Union  were  neeessary.  Under  this 
conviction  he  had  brought  forward  a  set  of  repubUcan  propositiomi 
as  the  basis  and  outline  of  a  reform.  These  Republican  propositions 
had  however,  much  to  hia  regret,  been  widely,  and  in  his  opinion, 
irreconcileably  departed  from.  In  this  state  of  things  it  was  his  idea 
and  he  accordingly  meant  to  propose,  that  the  State  Conventions 
T  ?!  .°*  "^  ^  *'*^*'"  «m«nclments  to  the  plan;  and  that  these 
should  be  submitted  to  a  second  General  Convention,  with  full  power 
0  settle  the  Constitution  flnaUy.  He  did  not  expect  to  succeed  in 
this  proposition,  but  the  discharge  of  his  duty  in  making  the  attempt 
would  give  quiet  to  his  own  mind.  ' 

Mt  WttsoN  was  against  a  reconsideration  for  any  of  the  purposes 
Which  had  been  mentioned. 


•The  I^l^il''''.!'' »"■'*"  ""  "nl-t""**^  In  the  transcript  for  "and.' 
Ihe  word  "the"  18  omitW  in  the  tranacript. 


.^1 

ftl 


■ 


|/;««i 


I'* 
Irl 


542      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

IT.  Kino  thought  it  would  be  more  respectful  to  CongreM  to 
nibmit  the  plan  generally  to  them ;  than  in  lueh  a  form  as  expressly 
and  necessarily  to  require  their  approbation  or  disapprobation.  The 
assent  of  nine  States  he  considered  as  sufficient;  and  that  it  was  more 
proper  to  make  this  a  part  of  the  Constitution  itself,  than  to  proTids 
for  it  by  a  supplemental  or  distinct  recommendation. 

IT.  OnniT  urged  the  indecency  and  pernicious  tendency  of  di*- 
solTing  in  so  slight  a  manner,  the  solemn  obligations  of  the  artides 
of  confederation.  If  nine  out  of  thirteen  can  dissolve  the  eompaet, 
8ix  out  of  nine  will  be  just  as  able  to  dissolve  the  new  one  hereafter. 

M^  Sbkbman  was  in  favor  of  W  King's  idea  of  submitting  the  plan 
generally  to  Congress.  He  thought  nine  States  ought  to  be  made 
sufficient:  but  that  it  would  be  best^  to  make  it  a  separate  act  and 
in  some  such  form  aa  that  intimated  by  Col :  Hamilton,  than  to  make 
it  a  particular  article  of  the  Constitution. 

On  the  question  for  reconsidering  the  two  articles,  XXI  ft  XXII — 

N.  H.  div^  Mas.  no.  C^  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del  ay.  M*  ay. 
V*  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  r  ..    Geo.  ay.» 

Ml  Hamilton  then  mr  -ed  to  postpone  art  XXI  in  order  to  take 
up  the  following,  conta^     :i;  the  ideas  he  had  above  expressed,  vis 


Besolved  that  t 
mitted  to  the  U.  S. 
shall  be  agreed  to  V 
tures  of  the  several 
final  ratification  by 
vention  of  Deputi*^ 
and  that  it  be     i'comm<>t> 
spective  acts  f  :  organi: 
said  Conventio    shall  apt  i 
bation  shall  be      .ding  an^ 
that  if  the  said  Convention 
the  assent  of  any  nine  Statei 


o'         miag  plan  of  a  Constitution  be  trans- 
-i^Ttu  assembled,  in  order  that  if  the  same 
vf*-^-      it  may  be  communicated  to  the  Legiala- 
■^taa      to  the  end  that  they  may  provide  for  its 
farrng  the  same  to  the  Consideration  of  a  Con- 
m  eat'-  State  to  be  chosen  by  the  people  thereof, 
a  to  the  said  Legislatures  in  their  re- 
such    wvention  to  declare,  that  if  the 
>ve  of     '^  said  Constitution,  such  appro- 
e0n<  lu!-  ve  upon  the  State,  and  further 
-h  m,  i  i  e  of  opinion  that  the  same  upon 
iiereto,  ought  to  take  effect  between  the 


States  so  assenting,  such  opinion  shall  thereupon  be  also  binding 
upon  such  State,  and  the  said  Constitution  shall  take  effect  between 
the  States  assenting  thereto  " 

M^  Oebbt  2^^  the  motion. 

M'.  WiusoN.  This  motion  being  seconded,  it  is  neeessary  now  to 
speak  freely.  He  expressed  in  strong  terms  his  disapprobation  of 
the  expedient  proposed,  particularly  the  suspending  the  plan  of 

■  Tlie  word  "beet "  is  croned  ont  in  the  tranwript  and  "better"  te  written 
•boTe  it. 

'  In  the  tnuiMript  the  vote  readi ;  "  C<«neeticnt,  New  Jenev,  Delaware, 
Xlaryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 7;  IfaMaelraietta,  Penaqrl- 
vania.  South  Carolina,  no— 3;  New  Hampehire,  divided." 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY.  SEPTEMBEB  10,  1787         543 


the  ConTention  on  the  approbation  of  Congre*.  He  deelared  it  to 
be  worae  than  folly  to  rdy  on  the  eoncnmnee  of  the  Bhode  laland 
membera  of  Cong!  in  the  plan.  Maryland  haa  voted  on  thia  floor; 
for  requiring  the  ananimona  aaaent  of  the  13  Statea  to  the  propoaed 
change  in  the  federal  System.  N.  Toric  haa  not  been  repreaented 
for  a  long  time  paat  in  the  Convention.  Many  indiTidoal  deputies 
from  other  States  have  spoken  much  against  the  plan.  Under  these 
ciicnmatancea  can  it  be  safe  to  make  the  assent  of  Congress  neces- 
sary. After  spending  four  or  five  months  in  the  laborious  k 
ardnoDs  taak  of  forming  a  Government  for  our  Country,  we  are  our- 
selves at  the  eloae  throwing  insuperable  obetaclea  in  the  way  of  ita 
succeaa. 

Mt  Cltiob  thought  that  the  mode  propoaed  by  M*.  Ham- 
ilton would  fetter  &  embarraas  Congt  aa  much  as  the  original 
one,  since  it  equally  involved  a  breach  of  the  articlea  of  Confed- 
eration. 

W.  ExsQ  eooenrred  with  Mr  Clymer.  If  Congress  ean  accede  to 
one  mode,  they  ean  to  the  other.  If  the  approbation  of  Congress  be 
made  neeesaary,  and  they  should  not  approve,  the  State  Legislaturea 
will  not  propose  the  plan  to  Conventions ;  or  if  the  States  themselves 
are  to  provide  that  nine  States  shall  soAee  to  establish  the  System, 
that  provision  will  be  omitted,  every  thing  will  go  into  confusion, 
and  all  our  labor  be  lost 

IR  RuTUDOK  viewed  the  matter  in  the  same  light  with  M!  King. 
On  the  question  to  postpone  in  order  to  take  up  Col:  Hamilton's 
motion 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C?  ay.  N.  J.  no.  K  no.  Del.  no.  V*.  no. 
V»  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

A  Question  being  then  taken  on  the  article  XXI.  It  waa  agreed 
to  unanimoualy. 

Col:  Hamh/ton  withdrew  the  remainder  of  the  motion  to  post- 
pone art  XXII,  obaerving  that  hia  purpose  waa  defeated  by  the 
vote  juat  given; 

W.  WiLJiUHaoN  ft  M!  Qvitn  moved  to  re-imrtate  the  words  "  for 
the  approbation  of  Congress  "  in  art:  XXn  which  waa  disagreed  to 
nem:  con: 

MT  Bandoi^h  took  this  opportunity  to  state  hia  objections  to  the 
System.  They  turned  on  the  Senate's  being  made  the  Court  of  Im- 
peaelnnent  for  trying  the  Executive— on  the  necessity  of  %  inate^ad 

'Id  the  truKript  the  voU  reads:  "  CoimectiCTit,  •ye— 1;  New  Hampekire, 
MMsachutetta,  New  Jersey,  PeranylranU,  Delaware,  Bbrylud,  Virgiaia,  Xwth 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 10  " 


I 


is  11 


> 


m 

I 


544      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

of  H  of  Mch  hoaie  to  overrule  the  negativt  of  the  Pretident— on 
the  analltien  of  the  number  of  the  Reprewntative  branch, — on  the 
want  of  limitation  to  a  standing  army— on  the  general  elaoM  con- 
cerning neeeuarjr  and  proper  lawi— on  the  want  of  nme  partieular 
restraint  on  naTigatiim  acts— on  the  power  to  lay  duties  on  exports— 
on  the  Authority  of  the  Oencral  Legislature  to  interpose  on  the  appli- 
cation of  the  Executivti  of  the  States — on  the  want  of  a  more  definite 
boundary  between  the  General  ft  State  Legiriatnrca  and  between 
the  General  and  State  Judiciaries — on  the  the  unqualified  power  of  the 
President  to  pardon  treaiians— on  the  want  of  some  limit  to  the 
power  of  the  Legislature  in  regulating  their  own  oompensations. 
With  these  difficulties  in  his  mind,  what  course  he  asked  was  he  to 
pursue  T  Was  he  to  promote  the  establishment  of  a  plan  which  he 
yerily  believed  would  end  in  Tyranny  T  He  was  unwilling  he  said 
to  impede  the  wishes  and  Judgment  of  the  Convention,  but  he  must 
keep  himself  free,  in  case  he  should  be  honored  with  a  seat  in  the 
Convention  of  his  State,  to  act  according  to  the  dictates  of  his  judg- 
ment. The  only  mode  in  which  his  embarrassments  could  be  removed, 
was  that  of  submitting  the  plan  to  Cong!  to  go  from  them  to  the 
State  Legislatures,  and  from  these  to  State  Conventions  having 
power  to  adopt  reject  or  amend;  the  process  to  close  with  another 
General  Convention  with  full  power  to  adopt  or  reject  the  altera- 
tions proposed  by  the  State  Conventions,  and  to  establish  finally 
the  Government.  He  accordingly  proposed  a  Resolution  to  this 
eflFect. 

Doc!  Franklin  2*?"  the  motion 

Col :  Mason  urged  &  obtained  that  the  motion  should  lie  oc  the 
table  for  a  day  or  two  to  see  what  steps  might  be  taken  with  regard 
to  the  parts  of  the  system  objected  to  by  W  Randolph. 

M'  PiNKNET  moved ' '  that  it  be  an  instruction  to  the  Committee  for 
revising  the  stile  and  arrangement  of  the  articles  agreed  on,  to  prepare 
an  Address  to  the  People,  to  accompany  the  present  Constitution,  and 
to  be  laid  with  the  same  before  the  U.  States  in  Congress." 

*  The  motion  itself  was  referred  to  the  Committee,  nem :  con : 

*  M!  Randolph  moved  to  refer  to  the  Committee  also  a  motion 
relating  to  pardons  in  cases  of  Treason — which  was  agreed  to  nem: 
con: 

Adjourned 

*  Thete  motioiu  '  not  entered  in  the  printed  Jonmal. 
'  The  word  "  are  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  TUESDAT,  SEPTEMBBft  11,  1T87 
Tdbdat  8«p"  11.  1787.»    Ix  Cohvwtion 


545 


The  Report  of  the  Committee  of  StOe  &  arruKement  not  being 
made  A  being  waited  for, 

Tke  Honae  Adjoomed 


WiDNKDAT  Sep»  12.  1787.*    In  ComnNTiON 

Doc*.  Johnson  from  the  Comimittee  of  itile  fte.  reported  a  digest 
of  the  plan,  of  which  printed  copiei  were  ordered  to  be  famished 
to  the  membm.  He  iJao  report^l  a  letter  to  accompany  the  plan, 
to  Congreaa.  (Here  insert  a  transcript  of  the  former  from  the  an- 
nexed sheet  as  printed  •  and  of  the  latter  from  the  draft  as  finally 
agreed  to.* 

Wi,  TBI  raoPLa  ot  nn  Uhitid  Statu,  nr  oaoia  to  mbk  a  more 
pcrfMt  anion,  to  astabliib  jnstiea,  insure  domsstie  tranquility,  provide  for 
the  ecunmon  defcnee,  promote  tlie  genenl  walfara,  and  Meni*  the  blessings 
of  liberty  to  ouselTeB  and  our  posterity,  do  ordain  and  establish  this  Con- 
stitution for  the  United  States  of  America. 


AmcLi  I. 

Sect.  1.  ALL  legislativs  powers  herein  granted  shall  be  Tested  b  a  Con- 
gress of  the  United  States,  which  shall  consist  of  a  Senate  and  House  of 
Representatives. 

Sect.  2.  The  Honse  of  Representatives  shall  be  eompoeed  of  mcmben 
chosen  every  second  year  by  the  people  of  the  several  sUtes,  and  the  electors 
in  each  state  shall  have  the  qualiflcations  requisite  for  electors  of  the  most 
numerous  branch  of  the  state  legislature. 

No  person  shall  be  a  representative  who  shall  not  have  attabed  to  the 
age  of  twenty-five  years,  and  been  seven  years  a  citizen  of  the  United  SUtes, 
and  who  shall  not,  when  elected,  be  an  inhabitant  of  that  state  in  which  he 
shall  be  chosen. 

Representatives  and  direct  taxes  shall  be  apportioned  among  the  several 
states  which  may  be  included  within  this  Union,  according  to  their  respective 
numbers,  which  shall  be  determined  by  adding  to  the  whole  number  of  free 
persons,  including  those  bound  In  servitude  for  a  tenn  of  years,  and  excluding 
Indians  not  taxed,  three-fifths  of  all  other  persons.    The  actual  enumeration 

* "  This  is  a  literal  copy  of  the  printed  Report.    The  Copy  in  the  printed 
Journal  contains  some  of  the  alteraticms  subsequently  made  in  the  Hous«.> 


'  The  year  "  1787  "  ii  omitted  In  the  transcript. 

"  No  transcript  of  the  report  w««,  howerer.  made  by  Madison,  but  it  was 
copied  by  Payne  and  inserted  in  this  place  in  the  Payne  transcript.  The  test 
here  printed  is  >  copy  of  the  printed  report  sccompsnyintt  Madison's  notes. 
The  letter  is  nrinted  »t  page  553. 

'  Madison  i  direction  concerring  the  report  U  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


546      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


•haU  be  made  within  tbiw  yean  after  the  fint  meeting  of  tlw  Congnit  of  tba 
United  StatM,  and  within  every  lubaequent  term  of  ten  yean,  in  such  manner 
u  tbcy  ghall  by  law  direct.  The  nnmbar  of  repreaenUtivee  ahall  not  exeaed 
one  for  every  forty  thonaand,  but  each  itate  ahall  have  at  laaat  one  rtpra- 
•antativc:  and  until  aneb  enumeration  ahall  b«  made,  the  atate  of  New- 
Hampahire  ahall  be  entitled  to  ehuie  three,  Maaaaehuaetta  eight,  Bhoda- 
laland  and  Providence  Plantatiuni  one,  Connecticut  five,  New-York  m, 
New-Jeney  four,  Pennsylvania  eight,  Deleware  one,  Maryland  di,  Tirginia 
tan,  North-Carolina  Ave,  South-Carolina  five,  and  Qeorgia  three. 

When  vaeaneiaa  happen  in  the  representation  from  any  atate,  the 
Exaentive  authority  thereof  ahall  ianie  write  of  election  to  fill  lueh  vaoaneiee. 

The  Houae  of  Repreaent«tivea  ahall  ehooaa  tb^  Speaker  and  other 
officers;  and  they  shall  have  the  aole  power  of  impeachment. 

Sect.  3.  The  Senate  of  the  United  Statea  ahall  be  eompoeed  of  two 
aenators  from  each  stats,  cboaen  by  the  legialature  thereof,  for  aiz  years: 
and  each  senator  ahall  have  one  vote. 

Immediately  after  they  shall  be  aaaembled  la  eonaeqnenee  of  tba  first 
election,  they  shall  be  divided*  [by  lot]  aa  equally  aa  nuiy  be  into  three 
elaaaea.  The  seats  of  the  senators  of  the  first  class  shall  be  vacated  at  the 
expiration  of  the  second  year,  of  the  second  elaea  at  the  expiratios  of  the 
fourth  year,  and  of  the  third  elasa  at  the  expiration  of  the  sixth  year,  so 
that  ems-third  may  be  th'jfn  a/rtrj  second  year:  and  if  vacancies  happen  by 
reeignation,  or  otherwise,  dariag  (He  receee  of  the  Lqrialatnre  of  any  atate, 
the  Executive  thereof  may  make  teatporaiy  appointments  until  the  next 
meeting  of  Uut  Ij^slature. 

No  person  shall  be  a  senator  wh<>  Aa&  n<A  have  attained  to  the  age  of 
thirty  years,  and  been  nine  years  a  citizen  of  the  United  Statee,  and  who  shall 
not,  when  elected,  be  an  intuibitant  of  that  state  for  which  be  ahall  be  «^ostn. 

The  Vice-President  of  the  United  SUtee  shall  be,  ex  oltf4o '  President  of 
the  senate,  but  ghall  have  no  vote,  unlese  tliev  i>e  equally  divided. 

The  Senate  shall  choose  their  other  omcerm,  and  alao  a  Prendent  pro 
tempore,  in  the  absence  of  the  Vir.e-Preaident,  or  when  he  ahaH  eiewiae  the 
office  of  Preaident  of  the  United  Statea. 

The  Senate  sbcU  have  the  sole  power  to  try  aU  impeachments.  When 
mtting  for  that  purpoae,  they  shai  be  on  oath.  WiM»  the  President  of  the 
United  States  ia  tried,  the  Chief  Justice  shall  preside :  Aai  no  person  iha& 
be  convicted  without  the  concurrence  of  two-thirds  of  the  memi^n  preamt 

Judgment  in  caaes  of  impeachment  shall  not  extend  fa^^ier  than  to 
removal  from  office,  and  disqualiflcation  to  hold  and  enjoy  any  office  of 
honor,  trust  or  profit  under  the  United  Stat««! :  but  the  party  convicted  shall 
neverthelesa  be  liable  and  subject  to  indictmmt,  trial,  judgment  and  puni^ 
ment,  according  to  law. 

Seel.  4.  The  tiitie».  places  and  mauuer  of  holding  elections  for  senators 
and  representatives,  shall  be  prescribed  in  each  state  by  the  legislature 
thereof:  but  the  Congress  may  at  aoy  time  by  law  make  or  titer  mx^ 
regulations. 

*  The  words,  "  bf  M,"  wye  aet  ia  the  Report  aa  printed ;  but  were  inserted 
in  manuBcript,  as  a  tfpoi^»4m)  «rr«r,  departing  from  the  text  of  the  Report 
referred  to  tba  Committee  <4  tkyU  i  trtamgaaent. 

'  The  words  "  ex  ufficlo"  are  omitted  ia  the  traAeeri^. 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  12,  1787     647 


Th«  CongTMt  ■hall  HMmbU  at  iMtt  odm  in  trarjr  jraar,  and  laeh  mMtiaf 
ibtil  b«  on  Um  Ant  Monday  in  Dawmbw,  anl«i  tbty  ihall  bjr  law  appoint 
B  ditfcrtnt  day. 

Stl.  6.  Eaeb  bona*  ahall  ba  the  Jndga  of  tba  aketioiM,  ratwns  and 
qnalifl«ationa  of  ita  own  mambart,  and  a  majority  of  aaeh  shall  wnatitata 
a  quorum  to  do  bnaintaa:  but  a  tmaller  nombtr  may  adjourn  from  day  to 
day,  and  may  be  authonied  to  compel  the  attendanea  of  abeant  memban,  la 
tuch  manner,  and  under  lueb  penaltiee  aa  each  bouae  may  prorido. 

Eaeh  bouM  may  datormina  tba  mlaa  of  ita  proeaadinga;  puniab  ita  mam- 
beni  for  diaorderly  babaTioor,  and,  with  tba  eoneurranea  of  two-tbirda,  aipai 
a  mambar. 

Eaeb  bouaa  ihaU  keep  a  journal  of  ita  proeaadinga,  and  from  tima  to  tima 
publish  the  aame,  eseepting  aueb  paita  aa  may  in  their  jndgment  raquira 
aecrecy;  and  the  yeaa  and  nays  of  the  membera  of  either  bouaa  (m  any 
queation  ihaU,  at  the  daaira  of  ona-flftb  of  thoaa  praaant,  ba  antarad  on  tba 
journal. 

Neither  bonae,  during  the  iiaaion  of  Congreaa,  aball,  without  tba  eonaant 
uf  the  other,  adjourn  for  more  than  tbrae  daya,  nor  to  any  otbar  place  than 
that  in  whieb  the  two  houaea  shall  be  aitting. 

Sect.  6.  The  acnators  and  repreaentatirea  ahall  raeaira  a  eompanaatioo 
for  their  aerrieea,  to  be  aaeertained  by  law,  and  paid  out  of  the  traasuiy  of 
the  United  States.  They  shall  in  all  eases,  except  treason,  felony  and  breaeh 
of  the  peace,  be  pririlef^a  from  arrr^  during  tbeir  attendanea  at  the  ssssion 
of  their  respective  hou^  s,  and  i.'^  g^  *  to  ..nd  returning  from  the  same ; 
and  for  any  speech  or  aebata  in  «<t^  ji  -  uaa,  tbay  shall  not  bo  questioned 
in  any  otlier  place. 

No  senator  or  representative  shall,  during  the  tima  for  wUefa  ha  waa 
elected,  ba  appointed  to  any  eiril  offlee  under  the  authority  of  the  United 
States,  which  shall  have  been  created,  or  the  emolumenta  whereof  shall  have 
been  encreaaed  during  such  time;  and  no  person  holding  any  office  under 
the  United  States,  shall  be  a  member  of  either  honsa  during  his  eontinuanea 
in  oBm. 

Sect.  7.  The  enacting  stila  of  tba  laws  ahall  ba,  "Ba  it  anaetad  by  tba 
senators  and  representativea  in  Congress  assembled." 

All  bills  for  raiaing  revenue  riiall  originate  in  the  bouaa  of  repreaentativaa; 
but  the  senste  may  propose  or  eoneur  with  amendmenta  aa  on  other  bills. 

Every  bill  which  shall  have  passed  the  house  of  representatives  and  tba 
iienate.  shall,  before  it  become  a  law,  be  prasmted  to  the  president  of  tba 
United  States.  If  be  approve  be  tfall  ngn  it,  but  if  not  be  shall  return  it, 
with  in*  objections  to  that  bouse  in  which  it  shall  have  originated,  who  shall 
enter  the  objections  at  large  on  their  journal,  and  proeeed  to  reconsider  it. 
If  after  such  reeousideratiMi  two-thirds  of  that  house  shall  agree  to  paaa 
the  bill,  it  ahall  be  sent,  together  with  the  objections,  to  the  other  house,  by 
which  it  sliall  likewise  be  reconsidered,  and  if  approved  by  two-thirds  of 
that  house,  it  shall  become  a  law.  But  in  all  such  cases  the  votes  of  both 
h/mtes  shall  i»  determined  by  yeas  and  nays,  and  the  names  of  the  persons 
v«#ag  for  and  against  the  bill  shall  be  entered  on  the  journal  of  each  house 
raifasfivrfy  If  any  bill  shall  not  be  returned  by  the  Prnident  within  ten 
A»yt  (Sundays  excepted)  after  it  shall  have  been  presented  to  him,  the  same 
sbffH  be  a  law,  in  like  manner  as  if  he  had  signed  it,  unless  the  Congress  by 


MIOOCOfY   RESOIUTION   TBI  CHAIT 

(ANSI  and  ISO  TEST  CHART  No   2) 


^  ^:?PPLIEDjyMGE__lnc 

^gC  165J    fost    Mom    S'refl 

:^  ("6)   482  -  0300  -  P-.one 

^3  (716)    288-5989  -  Fo« 


548      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

their  •djonmment  prevent  its  retnm,  in  which  eaae  it  shall  not  be  s  law. 

Every  order,  resolntion,  or  vnt«  to  which  the  eoneurrenee  of  the  Senate 
and  House  of  Representatives  /  be  necessary  (except  on  a  question  of 
adjournment)  shall  be  presen;  o  the  President  of  the  United  States;  and 
before  the  same  shall  take  effect,  shall  be  approved  by  him,  or,  being  dis- 
approved by  him,  shall  be  repassed  by*  three-fourths  of  the  Senate  and 
House  of  Representatives,  according  to  the  roles  and  limitations  prescribed 
in  the  case  of  a  bill. 

Sect.  8.  The  Congress  may  by  joint  ballot  appoiat  a  treasurer.  They 
shall  have  power 

To  lay  and  collect  taxes,  duties,  imposts  and  excises;  to  pay  the  debts 
and  provide  for  the  common  defence  and  general  wel^ure  of  the  United 
Sutes. 

To  borrow  money  on  the  credit  of  the  United  States. 

To  regulate  commerce  with  foreign  nations,  among  the  several  states,  and 
with  the  Indian  tribes. 

To  establish  an  uniform  rule  of  naturalization,  and  uniform  laws  on  the 
subject  of  bankruptcies  throughout  the  United  States. 

To  coin  money,  regulate  the  value  thereof,  and  of  foreign  eoin,  and  fix 
the  standard  of  weights  and  measures. 

To  provide  for  the  punishment  of  counterfeiting  the  securities  and 
enrrent  coin  of  the  United  States. 

To  establish  post  offices  and  post  roads. 

To  promote  the  progress  of  science  and  useful  arts,  by  seeuring  for 
limited  times  to  authors  and  inventors  the  exclusive  right  to  their  respective 
writings  and  discoveries. 

To  constitute  tribunals  inferior  to  the  supreme  court. 

To  define  and  punish  piracies  and  felonies  committed  on  the  hi{^  seas, 
and  t  [punish]  offences  against  the  law  of  nations. 

To  declare  war,  grant  letters  of  marque  and  reprisal,  and  Hiake  rules 
eoneeming  captures  on  land  and  water. 

To  raise  and  support  armies:  but  no  appropriation  of  money  to  that 
use  shall  be  for  a  longer  term  than  two  years. 

To  provide  and  maintain  a  navy. 

To  make  mlea  for  the  government  and  regulation  of  the  land  and  naval 
forces. 

To  provide  for  calling  forth  the  militia  to  execute  the  laws  of  the  union, 
suppress  insurrections  and  repel  invasions. 

To  provide  for  organizing,  arming  and  disciplining  the  militia,  and  for 
governing  such  part  of  them  as  may  be  employed  in  the  service  of  the  United 
States,  reserving  to  the  States  respectively,  the  appointment  of  the  officers, 
and  the  authority  of  training  the  militia  according  to  the  discipline  prescribed 
by  Congress. 

*  In  the  entry  of  this  Report  in  the  printed  Journal  "  two  thirds  "  are  lulh 
stuted  for  "  three  fourths."  This  change  was  made  after  the  Report  was 
received.' 

t  [punish]  a  typographical  omission.' 


*  This  is  a  mistake  on  Madison's  part. 

'  The  words  "  in  the  printed  Report "  are  her?  added  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OF  "WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBEE  12,  1787     549 


To  exereiM  ezeluriTe  legislation  in  all  eaaea  whatsoever,  over  such  district 
(not  exceeding  ten  miles  square)  as  nuiy,  by  cession  of  particniar  States, 
and  the  acceptance  of  Congress,  become  the  seat  of  the  *  government  of  the 
United  States,  and  to  exercise  like  authority  over  all  places  purchased  by 
the  consent  of  the  legislature  of  the  state  in  which  the  same  shall  be,  for 
the  erection  of  forts,  magazines,  arsenals,  dock-yards,  and  other  needful 
buildings — ^And 

To  make  all  laws  which  shall  be  necessary  and  proper  for  carrying  into 
execution  the  foregoing  powers,  and  all  other  powers  vested  by  this  constitu- 
tion in  the  government  of  the  United  States,  or  in  any  department  or  officer 
thereof. 

Sect.  9.  The  migration  or  importation  of  such  persons  as  the  several 
states  now  existing  shall  think  proper  to  admit,  shall  not  be  prohibited  by 
the  Congress  prior  to  the  year  one  thousand  eight  hundred  and  eight,  but  a 
tax  or  duty  may  be  inqposed  on  such  importation,  not  exceeding  ten  dollars 
for  each  person. 

The  privilege  of  the  writ  of  habeas  corpus  shall  not  be  suspended,  unless 
when  in  cases  of  rebellion  or  invasion  the  public  safety  may  require  it. 

No  bill  of  attainder  shall  be  passed,  nor  any  ex  post  facto  law. 

Ko  capitation  tax  shall  be  laid,  unless  in  proportion  to  the  census  herein 
before  directed  to  be  taken. 

No  tax  or  duty  shall  be  laid  on  articles  exported  from  any  state. 

No  money  shall  be  drawn  £rom  the  treasury,  but  in  consequence  of 
appropriations  made  by  law. 

No  title  of  nobility  shall  be  granted  by  the  United  States.  And  no  person 
holding  any  office  of  profit  or  trust  under  them,  shall,  without  the  consent  of 
the  Congress,  accept  of  any  present,  emolument,  office,  or  title,  of  any  kind 
whatever,  from  any  king,  prince,  or  foreign  state. 

Sect.  10.  No  state  shall  coin  money,  nor  *  emit  bills  of  credit,  nor  *  make 
any  thing  but  gold  or  silver  coin  a  tender  in  payment  of  debts,  nor '  pass  any 
bill  of  attainder,  nor  *  ex  post  facto  laws,  nor  *  laws  altering  or  impairing  the 
obligation  of  contracts;  nor  ■  grant  letters  of  marque  and  reprisal,  nor  ■  enter 
into  any  treaty,  alliance,  or  confederation,  nor  '  grant  any  title  of  nobility. 

No  state  shall,  without  the  consent  of  Congress,  lay  imposts  or  dntiet' 
on  imports  or  exports,  nor  *  with  such  consent,  but  to  the  use  of  the  treasury 
of  the  United  States.  Nor*  keep  troops  nor'  ships  of  war  in  time  of  peace, 
nor  *  enter  into  any  agreement  or  compact  with  another  state,  nor  '  with  any 
foreign  power.  Nor  *  engage  in  any  war,  unless  it  shall  be  actually  invaded 
by  enemies,  or  the  danger  of  in'  ^ion  be  so  imminent,  as  not  to  admit  of 
delay  until  the  Congress  can  be  consulted. 


(  ' 


J 


n. 

Sect.  1.  The  executive  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  president  of  the  United 
States  of  America.  He  shall  hold  his  office  during  the  term  of  four  years, 
and,  together  with  the  vice-president,  chosen  for  the  same  term,  be  elected 
in  the  following  manner: 

'  The  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  the  tranwript. 

•  The  word  "  or  "  is  «ubititut*d  in  the  tranicript  for  "  nor,"  the  letter  "  n  " 
haviag  been  croMed  off  in  Madison's  printed  copy. 


^i 


i  ,1! 


550      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


Each  state  shall  appoint,  in  saeh  manner  as  the  legislature  thereof  may 
direct,  a  number  of  electors,  equal  to  the  whole  nnmber  of  senaton  and 
representatives  to  which  the  state  may  be  entitled  in  Congreaa:  but  no 
serator  or  representative  shall  be  appointed  an  elector,  nor  any  person 
holding  an  office  of  trust  or  profit  under  the  United  States. 

The  electors  shall  meet  in  their  respective  states,  and  vote  by  ballot  for 
two  persons,  of  whom  one  at  least  shall  not  be  an  inhabitant  of  the  same 
state  with  themselves.  And  they  shall  make  a  list  of  all  the  persons  voted 
for,  and  of  the  number  of  votes  for  each;  which  list  they  shall  sign  and 
certify,  and  transmit  sealed  to  the  seat  of  the  general  government,  directed 
to  the  president  of  the  senate.  The  president  of  the  senate  shall  in  the 
presence  of  the  senate  and  house  of  representatives  open  all  the  certificates, 
and  the  votes  shall  then  be  counted.  The  person  having  the  greatest  number 
of  votes  shall  be  the  president,  if  such  nnmber  be  a  majority  of  the  whole 
number  of  electors  appointed;  and  if  there  be  more  than  one  who  have  saeh 
majority,  and  have  an  equal  number  of  votes,  then  the  house  of  representa- 
tives shall  immediately  chuae  by  ballot  one  of  them  for  president;  and  if  no 
person  have  a  majority,  then  from  the  five  highest  on  the  list  the  said  house 
shall  in  like  manner  choose  the  president  But  in  ehoosing  the  president, 
the  votes  shall  be  taken  by  states  and  not  per  capita,  the  representation 
from  each  state  having  one  vote.  A  quorum  for  this  purpose  shall  consist 
of  a  member  or  members  from  *  o-thirds  of  the  states,  and  a  majority  of 
all  the  states  shall  be  necessary  tO  a  choice.  In  every  case,  after  the  choice 
of  the  president  by  the  representatives,  the  person  having  the  greatest  number 
of  votes  of  the  electors  shall  be  the  vice-president.  But  if  there  should 
:  emain  two  or  more  who  have  equal  votes,  the  senate  shall  choose  from  them 
by  ballot  the  vice-president. 

The  Congress  may  determine  the  time  of  ehusing  the  electors,  and  the 
time  in  which  they  shall  give  their  votes;  but  the  deetion  shall  be  on  the 
same  day  throughout  the  United  States. 

No  person  except  a  natural  bom  citizen,  or  a  citizen  of  the  United  States, 
at  the  time  of  the  adoption  of  this  constitution,  shall  be  elipble  to  the  office 
of  president;  neither  shall  any  person  be  eligible  to  that  oflBee  who  shall 
not  have  attained  to  the  age  of  thirty-five  years,  and  been  fourteen  years 
a  resident  within  the  United  States. 

In  case  of  the  removal  of  the  president  from  offiee,  or  of  his  death, 
resignation,  or  inability  to  discharge  the  powers  and  duties  of  the  said  office, 
the  same  shall  devolve  on  the  vice-president,  and  the  Congress  may  by  law 
provide  for  the  case  of  removal,  death,  resignation  or  inability,  both  of  the 
president  and  vice-president,  declaring  what  officer  shall  then  act  as  president, 
and  such  officer  shall  act  accordingly,  until  the  disability  be  removed,  or  the 
period  for  ehusing  another  president  arrive. 

The  president  shall,  at  stated  times,  receive  a  fixed  compensation  for 
his  services,  which  shall  neither  be  encreased  nor  diminished  during  the  period 
for  which  he  shall  have  been  elected. 

Before  be  enter  on  the  execution  of  bis  office,  he  shall  take  the  following 

oath  or  affirmation:  "I  ,  do  solemnly  swear  (or  affirm)  that  I  will 

faithfully  execute  the  office  of  president  of  the  United  Stattis,  and  will  to  the 
best  of  my  judgment  and  power,  preserve,  protect  and  defend  the  constitution 
of  the  United  States." 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  12,  1787     551 


8«et.  2.  Tbe  prendent  shall  be  eommuidcr  in  ehief  of  the  anny  and  navy 
of  the  United  States,  and  of  tbe  militia  of  the  several  States:*  be  may 
require  the  opinion,  in  writing,  of  tbe  principal  officer  in  each  of  the  executive 
departments,  upon  any  subject  relating  to  tbe  duties  of  their  respective 
offices,  when  called  into  the  actual  service  of  the  United  States,'  and  he  shall 
have  power  to  grant  reprieves  and  pardona  for  offences  against  the  United 
States,  except  in  cases  of  impeachment. 

He  shall  have  power,  by  and  with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  senate, 
to  make  treaties,  provided  two-thirds  of  the  senators  present  concur;  and 
he  shall  nominate,  and  by  and  with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  senate, 
shall  appoint  ambassadors,  other  public  ministers  tnd  consuls,  judges  of  the 
supreme  court,  and  all  other  officers  of  the  United  States,  whose  appointments 
are  not  herein  otherwise  provided  for. 

The  president  shall  have  power  to  fill  up  all  vaeaneiea  that  may  happen 
during  tbe  recess  of  ''  e  senate,  by  granting  commisdons  which  shall  expire 
at  the  end  of  their  not  session. 

Sect.  3.  He  shall  from  time  to  time  give  to  the  Congress  information  of 
the  state  of  tbe  union,  and  recommend  to  their  consideration  reh  measures 
as  he  shall  judge  necessary  and  expedient:  he  may,  on  extrao  Jinary  occa- 
sions, convene  both  bouses,  or  either  of  them,  and  in  case  of  disagreement 
between  tbeu.,  with  respect  to  the  time  of  adjournment,  he  may  adjourn 
them  to  such  time  as  he  shall  think  propor:  he  shal^  receive  ambassadors 
and  other  publie  misisteis:  he  shall  take  care  that  the  laws  be  faithfully 
executed,  and  shall  commission  all  the  officers  of  the  United  States. 

Sect.  4.  The  president,  vice-president  and  all  civil  officers  of  tbe  United 
Stntes,  shall  be  removed  from  office  on  impeachment  for,  and  conviction  of 
treason,  bribery,  or  other  bi^  erimes  and  nodsdemeaaon. 


'    I 


m. 

Sect.  1.  Tbe  judieiai  power  of  tbe  United  States,  both  in  Uw  and  equity, 
shall  be  vested  in  one  supreme  court,  and  in  such  inferior  courts  as  the 
Congress  may  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish.  The  judges,  both  of 
the  supreme  and  inferior  courts,  shall  hold  their  offices  during  good  behaviour, 
and  shall,  at  stated  times,  receive  for  their  services,  a  compensation,  which 
shall  not  be  diminished  during  their  continuance  in  office. 

Sect.  2.  The  judicial  power  shall  extend  to  all  eases,  both  in  law  and 
equity,  arising  under  this  constitution,  the  laws  of  the  United  States,  and 
treaties  made,  or  which  shall  be  made,  under  their  authority.  To  all  cases 
affecting  ambassadors,  other  public  ministers  and  consuls.  To  all  cases  of 
admiralty  and  maritime  jurisdiction.  To  controversies  to  which  the  United 
States  shall  be  a  party.  To  controversies  between  two  or  more  States; 
between  a  state  and  citisens  of  another  state;  between  citisens  of  different 
States;  between  citizens  of  the  same  state  claiming  lands  under  giants  of 
different  States,  and  between  a  state,  or  the  citizens  thereof,  and  foreign 
States,  citizens  or  subjects. 

In  cases  affecting  ambassadors,  other  public  ministers  and  consuls,  and 


•  The  phrsse  "  when  called  into  the  actual  service  of  the  United  SUtes"  is 
transposed  in  the  transcript  so  that  it  follows  the  words  "  several  States." 


552      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONTENTION  OP  1787 

tboM  in  which  a  state  ihaU  be  party,  the  ■npieme  eonrt  ihall  have  original 
jnriidietion.  In  all  the  other  eaaea  before  mentioned,  the  nipmne  eonrt 
■hall  have  appellate  jariedietion,  both  aa  to  law  and  fact,  with  sueh  ezeep- 
tiona,  and  under  roeh  regulations  as  the  Congress  shall  ma^e. 

The  trial  of  ail  crimes,  except  in  cases  of  impeschment,  shall  be  by  jury; 
and  such  trial  shall  be  held  in  the  state  where  the  said  crimes  shall  have 
been  committed;  but  when  not  committed  within  soy  state,  the  trial  shall 
be  at  such  place  or  places  as  the  Congress  may  by  la^  have  directed. 

Sect.  3.  Treason  against  the  United  States,  shall  consist  only  in  levying 
war  against  them,  or  in  adhering  to  their  enemies,  giving  them  aid  and 
comfort.  No  person  shall  be  convicted  of  treason  unless  on  the  testimony 
of  two  witnesses  to  the  same  overt  act,  or  on  confession  in  open  court. 

The  Congress  shall  have  power  to  declare  the  punishment  of  treason,  but 
no  attainder  of  treason  shall  work  corruption  of  blood  nor  forfeiture,  except 
during  the  life  of  the  person  attainted. 


rv. 

Sect.  1.  Full  faith  and  credit  shall  be  given  in  each  state  to  the  publie 
acts,  records,  and  judicial  proceedings  of  every  other  state.  And  the  Congress 
may  by  general  laws  prescribe  the  manner  in  which  such  acts,  records  and 
proceedings  shall  be  proved,  and  the  effect  thereof. 

Sect.  2.  The  citizens  of  each  state  shall  be  entitled  to  all  privileges  and 
immunities  of  citizens  in  the  several  states. 

A  person  charged  in  any  state  with  treason,  felony,  or  other  crime,  who 
shall  flee  from  justice,  and  be  found  in  another  state,  shall  on  demand  of 
the  executive  authority  of  the  state  from  which  he  fled  be  delivered  up,  and 
removed  to  the  state  having  jurisdiction  of  the  crime. 

No  person  legally  held  to  service  or  labour  in  one  state,  escaping  into 
another,  shall  in  consequence  of  r^ulations  subsisting  therein  be  discharged 
from  such  service  or  labor,  but  shall  be  delivered  up  on  claim  of  the  party, 
to  whom  such  service  or  labour  may  be  due. 

Sect.  3.  New  states  nmy  be  admitted  by  the  Congress  into  this  union; 
but  no  new  state  shall  be  formed  or  erected  within  the  jurisdiction  of  any 
other  state;  nor  any  state  be  formed  by  the  junction  of  two  or  more  states, 
or  parts  of  states,  without  the  consent  of  the  legislatures  of  the  states  con- 
cerned as  well  as  of  the  Congress. 

The  Congress  shall  have  power  to  dispose  of  and  make  all  needful  rules 
and  rp^ulations  respecting  the  territory  or  other  property  belonging  to  the 
United  States:  and  nothing  in  this  Constitution  shall  be  so  construed  as  to 
prejudice  any  claims  of  the  United  States,  or  of  any  particular  state. 

Sect.  4.  The  United  States  shsU  guarantee  to  every  state  in  this  union 
a  Republican  form  of  government,  and  shall  protect  each  of  them  against 
invasion ;  and  on  application  of  the  legislature  or  executive,  against  domestic 
violence. 

V. 

The  Congress,  whenever  two-thirds  of  both  houses  shall  deem  necessary, 
or  on  the  application  of  two-thirds  of  the  legislatures  of  the  several  states, 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  12,  1787     553 

shall  propoM  unendincnto  to  thu  eonititntion,  which  shall  b«  valid  to  all 
intents  and  purposes,  as  part  thereof,  when  the  same  shall  have  been  imtifled 
by  three-fourths  at  least  of  the  legislatures  of  the  several  states,  or  by 
conventions  m  three-fourths  thereof,  as  the  one  or  the  other  mode  of  ratifica- 
tion may  be  proposed  by  the  Congress:  Provided,  that  no  amendment  which 
may  be  made  prior  to  the  year  1808  shall  in  any  manner  affect  the 
and  sections  of  *  article 

VI. 

All  debts  contracted  and  engagements  entered  iato  before  the  adoption 
of  this  Constitution  shall  be  as  valid  against  the  United  States  under  this 
Constitution  as  under  the  confederation. 

This  constitution,  and  the  laws  of  the  United  States  which  shall  be  made 
in  pursuance  thereof;  and  all  treaties  made,  or  which  shall  be  made,  under 
the  authority  of  the  United  States,  shall  be  the  supreme  law  of  the  land; 
and  the  judges  m  every  state  shall  be  bound  thereby,  any  thing  in  the 
constitution  or  laws  of  any  state  to  the  contrary  notwithstanding. 

The  senators  and  representatives  beforementioned,  and  the  members  of 
the  several  state  legislatures,  and  all  executive  and  judicial  officers,  both  of 
the  United  States  and  of  the  several  States,  shall  be  bound  by  oath  or 
aSrmation,  to  support  this  constitution;  but  no  religions  test  shall  ever  be 
required  as  a  qualification  to  any  oflBce  or  public  trust  under  the  United 
SUtes. 

vn. 

The  ratification  of  the  conventions  of  nine  States,  shall  be  sufficient  for 
the  esUblishment  of  this  constitution  between  the  States  so  ratifying  the  same. 


i 


LETTER.* 

We  have  now  the  honor  to  submit  to  the  consideration  of  the  United 
States  in  Congress  assembled,  that  Constitution  which  has  appeared  to  us  the 
most  adviseable. 

The  friends  of  our  country  have  long  seen  and  desired,  that  the  power 
of  making  war,  peace  and  treaties,  that  of  levying  money  and  regulating 
commerce,  and  the  correspondent  executive  and  judicial  authorities  should 


> The  word  "  the"  U  here  inserted  In  the  transcript. 

"  The  draft  of  the  letter  aeeoBq)anied  the  draft  of  the  Constitution  reported 
on  this  date,  but  was  not  printed  with  it.  The  Journal  says:  "The  draft  of  a 
letter  to  Consress  being  at  the  same  time  reported,  was  read  once  throughout; 
and  afterwards  agreed  to  by_paragraphi."  (See  Journal  of  the  Fedent  Cof^ 
vmtion  (1819),  page  367.)  The  letter  does  not  appear  to  have  caused  debate. 
Uavinif  been  accepted  September  12th,  it  was  printed  with  the  final  Constitution 
September  17th.  The  text  here  used  is  that  of  the  final  print,  which  was  also 
copied  by  Payne  for  the  transcript.    The  letter  is  printed  in  full,  mfra,  page  639. 


664      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

be  fully  and  efiectuaUy  vMted  in  the  gfener«l  government  of  the  Union:  but 
the  impropnety  of  delegating  euch  exteniive  tnwt  to  one  body  of  man  ia 
evident— Hence »  results  the  necewity  of  a  different  organisation. 

It  ia  obvionaly  impracticable  in  the  foederal  government  of  tbeae  Statea 
to  secure  all  righu  of  independent  sovereignty  to  each,  and  yet  provide  for 
the  interest  and  safety  of  aU— Individnala  entering  into  society  must  give 
up  a  share  of  liberty  to  preserve  the  reat  The  magnitude  of  the  saorifloa 
must  depend  aa  well  od  situation  and  eirenmstanee,  aa  on  the  object  to 
be  obtained.  It  is  at  all  times  difficult  to  draw  with  precision  the  Una 
between  those  rights  which  must  be  surrendered,  and  those  which  may  be 
reserved;  and  on  the  present  occasion  this  difBeulty  was  enoreased  by  a 
difference  among  the  several  SUtes  as  to  their  situation,  exUnt,  habita,  and 
particular  interests. 

In  all  our  deliberations  on  this  subject  we  kept  steadi!y  in  our  view,  that 
which  appears'  to  us  the  greatest  interest  of  every  true  American,  the 
consolidation  of  our  union,  in  which  is  involved  our  prosperity,  felicity, 
safety,  perhaps  our  national  existence.  This  important  consideration,  seri- 
ously and  deeply  impressed  on  our  minds,  led  -wh  State  in  the  Convention 
to  be  less  rigid  on»  points  of  inferior  magniiude,  than  might  have  been 
otherwise  expected;  and  thna  the  Constitntion,  which  we  now  present,  is  the 
result  of  a  spirit  of  amity,  and  of  that  mutual  deference  and  concession  which 
the  peculiarity  of  our  political  situation  rendered  indispenaible. 

That  it  will  meet  the  full  and  entire  approbation  of  every  State  ia  not 
perhaps  to  be  expected;  but  each  will  doubtless  consider,  that  had  her 
interest  alone  been  consulted,  the  consequences  might  have  been  particularly 
disagreeable  or*  injurious  to  others;  that  it  is  liable  to  aa  few  exceptions  as 
could  reasonably  have  been  expected,  we  hope  and  believe;  that  it  may 
promote  the  lasting  welfare  of  that  country  so  dear  to  ua  all,  and  saeura 
her  freedom  and  happineaa,  ia  our  moat  ardent  wish. 

HP  WiLUAHSON  moved  to  reconaider  the  claiue  requiring  three 
foorths  of  each  House  to  overrule  the  negative  of  the  President,  in 
order  to  atrike  out  %  and  insert  %.  He  had  he  remarked  himself 
proposed  %  instead  of  %,  bat  he  had  since  been  convinced  that  the 
latter  proportion  was  the  best.  The  former  puts  too  much  in  the 
power  of  the  President. 

W  Sherman  was  of  the  same  opinion;  adding  that  the  States 
would  not  like  to  see  so  small  a  minority  and  the  President,  prevail- 
ing over  the  general  voice.  In  making  laws  regard  should  be  had 
to  the  sense  of  the  people,  who  are  to  be  bound  by  them,  and  it  was 
more  probable  that  a  single  man  should  mistake  or  betray  t.lii«  sense 
than  the  Legislature 


'  The  word  "  Thence  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  Hence." 

•  The  word  "  appeared  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  appears." 

•  The  word  "  in ''  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  on." 

•  The  word  "  and  "  ia  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  or." 


SESSION  OF  WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  12,  1787     555 

W  Qovf  MoBRU.  Coiuidering  the  difference  between  the  two 
proportionB  numerically,  it  amounts  in  one  Houae  to  two  membera 
only;  and  in  the  other  to  not  more  than  five;  according  to  the 
numbera  of  which  the  Legialature  ia  at  flrat  to  be  compoaed.  It  ia 
the  intereat  moreover  of  the  distant  Statea  to  prefer  %  aa  they  will 
be  ofteneat  abaent  and  need  the  interposing  check  of  the  President. 
The  exceaa  rather  than  the  deficiency  of  lawa  waa  to  be  dreaded. 
The  example  of  N.  York  ahewa  that  %  ia  not  sofBcient  to  anawer 
the  purpoae. 

\P.  Hamilton  added  hia  testimony  to  the  fact  that  %  in  N.  York 
had  been  ineffectual  either  where  a  popular  object,  or  a  legialative 
faction  operated;  of  which  he  mentioned  some  instances. 

MI  Qebby.  It  is  necei«ary  to  consider  the  danger  on  the  other 
side  alao.  %  will  be  a  considerable,  perhaps  a  proper  security.  H 
puts  too  much  in  the  power  of  a  few  men.  The  primary  object  of 
the  reviaionary  check  of  the  Preaident  is  not  to  protect  the  general 
interest,  but  to  defend  his  own  department.  If  %  be  required,  a 
few  Senators  having  hopes  from  the  nomination  of  the  Preaident 
to  offices,  will  combine  with  him  and  impede  proper  laws.  Making 
the  Vice-President  Speaker  increaaea  the  danger. 

M'.  WouAMSON  was  lesa  afraid  of  too  few  than  of  too  many  lawa. 
He  was  most  of  all  afraid  that  the  repeal  of  bad  laws  might  be  ren- 
dered too  difficult  by  requiring  %  to  overcome  the  dissent  of  the 

President. 

Col :  Mason  had  alwaya  considered  this  aa  one  of  the  most  excep- 
tionable parts  of  the  System.  As  to  the  numerical  argument  of 
If  Gov?  Morris,  little  arithmetic  waa  necessary  to  understand  that 
%  was  more  than  %,  whatever  the  numbers  of  the  Legislature  might 
be.  The  example  of  New  York  depended  on  the  real  merits  of  the 
laws.  The  Gentlemen  citing  it,  had  no  doubt  given  their  own  opin- 
ions. But  perhaps  there  were  others  of  opposite  opinions  who  could 
equally  paint  the  abuses  on  the  other  side.  His  leading  view  was  to 
guard  against  too  great  an  impediment  to  the  repeal  of  laws. 

W-  (JovT  MomoB  dwelt  on  the  danger  to  the  public  interest  from 
the  instability  of  laws,  aa  the  mort  to  be  guarded  against.  On  the 
other  side  there  could  be  little  danger.  If  one  man  in  office  will  not 
consent  where  he  ought,  every  fourth  year  another  can  be  substituted. 
This  term  was  not  too  long  for  fair  experiments.  Many  good  laws  are 
not  tried  long  enough  to  prove  their  merit.  This  is  often  the  case 
with  new  laws  opposed  to  old  habits.    The  Inspection  laws  of  Vir- 


556      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

giniA  A  Maryland  to  which  all  are  now  ao  much  attached  were  on- 
popular  at  flnt. 

HP.  PnocNiT  waa  warmly  in  oppoaition  to  K  aa  putting  a  dan- 
gerona  power  in  the  handa  of  a  few  Senatora  headed  by  the  Preaident 

M!  Madison.  When  H  waa  agreed  to,  the  Preaident  waa  to  be 
elected  by  the  Legislature  and  for  aeven  year*.  He  is  now  to  be  elected 
by  the  people  and  for  four  yean.  The  object  of  the  reviaionary 
power  is  twofold.  1.'  to  defend  the  Executive  Righta  2.'  to  prevent 
popular  or  factious  injustice.  It  waa  an  important  principle  in 
this  &  in  the  State  Constitutiona  to  check  legislative  injuatice  and 
incroachments.  The  Experience  of  the  Statea  had  demonstrated  that 
their  checks  are  insufficient.  We  must  compare  the  danger  from  the 
weakness  of  %  with  the  danger  from  the  strength  of  94.  He  thought 
on  the  whole  the  former  waa  the  greater.  As  to  the  difficulty  of 
repeals,  xt  was  probable  that  in  doubtful  caaea  the  policy  would  ao«n 
take  place  of  limiting  the  duration  of  lawa  so  aa  to  require  renewal 
instead  of  repeal. 

The  reconsideration  being  agreed  to.  On  the  question  to  insert 
%  in  place  of  94. 

N.  H.  divl  Mas.  no.  C*.  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P!  no.  Del.  no.  M"?  ay. 
M!  M<'Henry  no.  Vf  no.  Oen.'  Washington  M(  Blair,  M^  Madison  no. 
Col.  Mason,  Mf  Bandolph  ay.    '     C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

M^  Williamson,  observed  to  the  House  that  no  provision  was  yet 
made  for  juries  in  Civil  cases  and  suggested  the  necessity  of  it. 

W.  GoRHAM.  It  is  not  possible  to  discriminate  equity  cases  from 
those  in  which  ;  <  <e8  are  proper.  The  Repreaentatives  of  the  people 
may  be  safely  trusted  in  this  matter. 

MT  Gebbt  urged  the  necessity  of  Juries  to  guard  ag?  corrupt 
Judges.  He  proposed  that  the  Committee  last  appointed  should  be 
directed  to  provide  a  clause  for  securing  the  trial  by  Juries. 

Col:  Mason  perceived  the  difficulty  mentioned  by  M'.  Gorham. 
The  jury  cases  can  not  be  specified.  A  general  principle  laid  down 
on  this  and  some  other  points  would  be  sufficient.  He  wished  the 
plan  had  been  prefaced  with  a  Bill  of  Rights,  &  would  second  a 
Motion  if  made  for  the  purpose.  It  would  give  great  quiet  to  the 
people;  and  with  the  aid  of  the  State  declarationa,  a  bill  mi^t  be 
prepared  in  a  few  hours. 

■  The  figures  "  1  "  and  "  2  "  are  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  tint "  and 
"  aecondly." 

■In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Maryland 
[Mr.  McHenry,  no.].  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye — 6;  Massa- 
chusetts, Pennsylvania.  Delaware,  ^'irginia  [General  Washington,  Mr.  Blair,  Mr. 
Madison,  no;  Col.  Mason,  Mr.  Randolph,  aye],  no— 1;  New  Hampshire,  divided." 


SESSION  OP  WEDNESDAY,  SEPTEMBER  12,  1787     557 

Mt  OoBT  eonenrred  in  th«  idea  ft  mored  for  «  CommittM  to 
prepare  a  Bill  of  BighU.    Col :  Mason  2^  tlie  motion. 

Mr  SRniUN,  wm  for  Mcaring  th«  righta  of  the  people  where 
reqnieite.  The  SUte  Deelarationa  of  Righte  are  not  repealed  hj 
thia  Constitution ;  and  being  in  foree  are  raffleient.  There  are  many 
eaaea  where  juriea  are  proper  which  can  not  be  diacriminated.  The 
Legislature  may  be  safely  trusted. 

Col :  Mason.  The  Laws  of  the  U.  8.  are  to  be  paramount  to  SUte 
Bills  of  Rights. 

On  the  question  for  a  Comt  to  prepare  a  Bill  of  Rights 

N.  H.  no,  Mas.  abs!  CI  no.  N.  J.  no.  P«  no.  Del.  no.  M<  no. 
Vt  no.   N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

The  aause  relating  to  exporU  being  reeonsidend,  at  the  in- 
stance  of  Cd:  MasM,  who  nrged  that  the  restriction  on  the  SUtes 
would  prevent  the  incidental  duties  necessary  for  the  inapection  ft 
safe-keeping  of  their  produce,  and  be  ruinous  to  the  Staple  States, 
as  he  called  the  five  Southern  States,  he  moved  aa  follows—"  provided 
nothing  herein  contained  ahall  be  construed  to  restrain  any  State 
from  laying  duties  upon  exporU  for  the  sole  purpose  of  defraying 
the  charges  of  inspecting,  packing,  storing  and  indemnifying  the 
losses,  in  keeping  the  commodities  in  the  care  of  public  ofticera, 
before  exportation."  In  answer  to  a  remark  which  he  antici- 
pated, towit,  that  the  States  could  provide  for  these  expences,  by 
a  tax  in  some  other  way,  he  stated  the  inoonveniency »  of  requiring 
the  Planters  to  pay  a  tax  before  the  actual  delivery  for  expor- 
tation. 

MT  Madison  2^  the  motion.  It  would  at  least  be  harmless;  and 
might  have  the  good  effect  of  restraining  the  States  to  bona  fide  duties 
for  the  purpose,  as  well  as  of  authorising  explicitly  such  duties;  tho' 
perhaps  the  best  guard  against  an  abuse  of  the  power  of  the  States 
on  this  subject,  was  the  right  in  the  Gen!  Government  to  regulate 
trade  between  State  ft  State. 

MT  Gov!  Morris  saw  no  objection  to  the  motion.  He  did  not  con- 
sider the  dollar  per  Hhd  laid  on  Tob?  in  Virgf  as  a  duty  on  exporta- 
tion, as  no  drawback  would  be  allowed  on  Tob?  taken  out  of  the 
Warehouse  for  internal  consumption. 

W  Dayton  was  afraid  the  proviso  w4  enable  PennsyW  to  tax 


'In  the  traiucript  the  rote  reads:  "New  Hampghire.  Connectlcnt,  New 
Jtrney  PenntylTanU,  Delaware,  aye-5;  Maryland.  VlrginU,  North  Carolina. 
^outh  Carolina,  Georgia.  no~6;  MaHachoMtts,  abwnt."  Thia  waa  the  copyiift 
error  as  Kadiaon'a  original  notea  agree  with  the  Journal,  which  reads:  "  Which 
passed  unanimously  in  the  negative." 

'  The  word  "  inconveniency  "  is  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  ineonvnieiioa;" 


I 


6S8     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

N.  Jentjr  ondtr  Um  id**  of  lupcctim  datiet  of  whidt  Ponf  would 
Jndgo. 

M'.  GoBHAM  4  lit  Lamodon,  thon^t  there  would  b«  no  Moority 
if  the  proviso  ih^  be  acreed  to,  for  the  SUtee  exporting  thro'  other 
States,  act*  the '  opprcwiona  of  the  latter.  How  waa  redreaa  to  be 
obUined  in  eaae  duties  ahonld  be  laid  beyond  the  porpoae  ezpreaMdt 

Mt  MAonoN.  There  will  be  the  aame  aeearity  aa  in  other  eaata. 
The  jorisdietion  of  the  aupreme  Court  must  be  the  aonree  of  redreai. 
So  far  only  had  proviaion  been  made  by  the  plan  ag?  injnrioua  aeta 
of  the  Statea.  Hii  own  opinion  wai,  that  thia  waa  inraiBcient.  A 
negative  on  the  State  lawa  alone  could  meet  all  the  ahapea  which 
these  could  aMome.    But  thia  had  been  overruled. 

IT  FrruMiiOMS.  Incidental  dntiea  on  Tobf  A  florr,  never  have 
been  *  never  can  be  eonaidered  aa  duties  on  exports. 

Mr  Dickinson.  Nothing  will  save'  States  in  the  situation  of  N. 
Hampahire  N  Jersey  Delaware  Ac  from  being  oppressed  by  iheir 
neighbors,  but  requi:ing  the  assent  of  Congf  to  inspection  duties. 
He  moved  that  thia  aaaent  ahl  aecordin^y  be  required. 

M!  BirrLiB  7^  the  motion. 

Adjourned 


TmiUDAT  Sip'^  Id.  1787.*    In  Convsntion 

Col :  Mason.  He  had  moved  without  succcm  for  a  power  to  make 
sumptuary  regulations.  He  had  not  yet  lost  sight  of  his  object. 
After  descanting  on  the  extravagance  of  our  manners,  the  excessive 
consumption  of  foreign  superfluities,  and  the  necessity  of  restricting 
it,  aa  well  with  oeconomieal  aa  republican  vieN.i,  he  moved  that  a 
Committee  be  appointed  to  report  artidea  of  association  for  encour- 
aging by  the  advice  the  influence  and  the  example  of  the  members 
of  the  Convention,  ceconomy  frugality  and  amer'can  manufactures. 

Doc?  Johnson  2*t*  the  motion  which  waa  wi  hout  debate  agreed 
to,  nem:  con:  and  a  Committee  appointed,  consisting  of  Col:  Mason, 
Doct  Franklin,  W  Dickenson,  DocT  Johnson,  and  M*.  Livingston.* 

Col:  Mason  renewed  his  proposition  of  yesterday  on  the  subject 

*  Tliii  motion  A  «ppointinent  of  the  Comittce.  not  '  in  the  printed  Jouroal. 
No  report  wm  made  by  the  C!om» 

'  The  word  "  these  "  ii  tubetitutcd  in  the  tranicript  for   '  the." 
"The  word  "the"  ii  here  iuerted  in  the  tranacript. 

•  The  year  "  1787  "  ii  omitted  in  the  tranKript 

<  The  words  "  do  not  appear  "  are  eubatituted  in  the  tranicript  for  "  not. 


SESSION  OF  THURSDAY,  SEPTEMBEB  13,  1787      689 

of  ii»p«etion  Uwi,  with  an  additioral  eUiue  fiTiag  to  CoBfnH  » 
controal  over  them  in  cam  of  abntt— •■  foUows, 

"  ProTided  that  no  SUt«  uhaU  bo  mtnined  from  imporinff  the 
uro»l  dutiw  on  produce  exported  from  meh  SUte,  for  the  wle  pur- 
po*e  of  defrajrinff  the  ehwgea  of  iQq>ectinff,  paekinff,  atorinf ,  and  in- 
demnifjring  the  loaaee  on  nich  produce,  whUe  in  the  ctutodr  of  public 
offlcere:  but  all  auch  reffulationa  ihall  in  caae  of  abuac,  be  rabjeet  to 
the  revision  and  eontronl  of  Coognaa." 

There  waa  no  debate  A  on  the  qncation 

N.  H.  ay.  Uaa.  ajr.  C!  ay.  P»  no.  Del.  no.  M<  ay.  V?  ay. 
N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Oea  ay.» 

The  Report  from  the  Committee  of  atile  ft  arrangement,  waa  taken 
up,  in  order  to  be  eomparad  with  the  artielea  of  the  plan  aa  agreed 
to  by  the  Houae  ft  referred  to  the  Committee,  and  to  reeeiTe  the  final 
oorreetiona  and  lanetion  of  the  Conyention. 

Art  1.  aect.  2.  On  motion  of  M!  SAt.ooLra  the  word  "  aerritude  " 
waa  atmck  out,  and  "  aenrice  "•  nninimoualy  inserted,  the  former 
being  thought  to  ezpreaa  the  condition  of  alavea,  ft  the  latter  the 
obligationa  of  free  peraona. 

Ml  DicDwaoN  ft  Mt  WiLaoH  mored  to  atrike  out  "  and  direct 
taxee,"  from  aect  2.  art  1.  aa  impropwly  placed  in  a  elauae  relating 
merely  to  the  Conatitntion  of  the  Houae  of  Repreaentatives. 

Mr  Gov?  Moms.  The  inaertira  here  waa  in  eonaeqnence  of  what 
had  paaaed  on  thia  point;  in  order  to  exclude  the  appearance  of 
counting  the  n^roea  in  the  ReprtftOation.  The  including  of  them 
may  now  be  referred  to  the  object  of  direct  tazca,  and  incidentally 
only  to  that  of  RepreaenUtion. 

On  the  motion  to  atrike  out  "  and  direct  taxea  "  from  thia  place 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  no.  Q  no.  N.  J.  ay.  Pf  no,  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V!  no.    N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

Art.  1.  aect.  7  "—if  any  biU  ahall  not  be  returned  by  the  preai- 
dent  within  ten  days  (Sundaya  excepted)  after  it  aliall  have  been 
presented  to  him  ftc  " 

Mt  Madison,  moved  to  insert  between  "  after  "  and  "  it  "  in  Sect 
7.  Art.  1  the  words  "  <he  day  on  which,"  in  order  to  prevent  a 

*  See  page  S72  of  the  printed  Jonrul. 


t   : 

i:. 
11 

i 


; 


'In  the  tranieript  the  Tote  r«adi:  "New  Hampehire,  MtMMhiuetta.  r«« 
-v'v^J'SS  t»»»««pt  the  vote  re«di:  "New  Jewey.  Delaware,  Maryland,  aye 


t 


560      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

question  whether  the  day  on  which  the  bill  be  presented,  ought  to 
be  counted  or  not  as  one  of  the  ten  days. 

&R  Randolph  2''!'  the  motion. 

Mf  GovERNU-  MoBBis.  The  amendment  is  unneceasaiy.  The  law 
knows  no  fractions  of  days. 

A  number  of  members  being  very  impatient  &  calling  for  the 
question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C!  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pi  ay.  Del.  no.  W  ay. 
V*  ay.    N.  C.  no   S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no— » 

Doc!  JoHKSON  made  a  further  report  from  the  Committee  of  stile 
&c  of  the  following  resolutions  to  be  substituted  for  22  &  23  articles 

"  Resolved  that  the  preceding  Constitution  be  laid  before  the  U. 
States  in  Congress  assembled,  and  that  it  is  the  opinion  of  this  Con- 
vention, tliat  it  should  afterwards  be  submitted  to  a  Convention  of 
Delegates  chosen  in  each  State  by  the  people  thereof,  onder  the 
recommendation  of  its  Legislature,  for  their  assent  &  ratification ;  & 
that  <>ach  Convention  assenting  &  ratifying  the  same  should  give 
notice  thereof  to  the  U.  S.  in  Cong*,  assembled. 

"  Resolved  that  it  is  the  opinion  of  this  Convention  that  as  soon 
as  the  Conventions  of  nine  States,  shall  have  ratified  this  Constitu- 
tion, the  U.  S.  in  Cong!  asi  mbled  should  fix  &  day  on  which  electors 
ahoiild  be  appointed  by  the  States  which  shall  have  ratified  the  same ; 
and  a  day  on  which  the  Eljctors  should  assemble  to  vote  for  the 
President ;  and  the  time  and  place  for  commencing  proceedings  under 
this  Constitution — That  after  such  publication  the  Electors  should  be 
appointed,  and  the  Senators  and  Representatives  ekcted:  That  the 
Electors  should  meet  on  the  day  fixed  for  the  election  of  the  Presi- 
dent, and  should  transmit  their  votes  certified  signed,  sealed  and 
directed,  as  the  Constitution  requires,  to  the  Secretary  of  the  U. 
States  in  Cong!  assembled:  that  the  Senators  and  Representatives 
should  convene  at  the  time  &  place  assigned ;  that  the  Senators  should 
appoint  a  President  for  the  sole  purpose  of  receiving,  opening,  and 
counting  the  votes  for  President,  and  that  after  he  shall  be  chosen, 
the  Congress,  together  with  the  President  should  without  delay  pro- 
ceed to  execute  this  Constitution." 

Adjourned 


Fbtoat  Sep?  14™  1787.*    In  Convention 

The  Report  of  the  Committee  of  Stile  &  arrangement  being  re- 
sumed, 


'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reada :  "  Penniylvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  aye 
— 3;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 8." 

'  The  year  "  1787  "  ia  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  SEPTEMBER  14,  1787  561 

iV.  Williamson  moved  to  reconsider  in  order  to  increase  the 
number  of  Representatives  fixed  for  the  first  Legislature.  His 
pnrpose  was  to  make  an  addition  of  one  half  generally  to  the  number 
allotted  to  the  respective  States;  and  to  allow  two  to  the  smallest 
States. 

On  this  motion 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CI  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V!  ay.    N  C.  ay.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.^ 

Art.  1.  sect.  3.-the  words •  "  by  lot  "  were  struck  out  nem:  con: 
on  motion  of  Mr  Madison,  that  some  rule  might  prevail  in  the  rotation 
that  would  prevent  both  the  members  from  the  same  State  from  going 
out  at  the  same  time. 

"  Ex  officio  "  struck  out  of  the  same  section  as  superfluous:  nem: 
con:  and  "  or  affirmation."  after  "  oath  "  inserted  also  unanimously. 

Mt  RuTUDOE  and  M*.  Gov?  Morris  moved  "  that  persons  im- 
peached be  suspended  from  their  office*  until  they  be  tried  and 
acquitted  " 

Mt  Madison.  The  President  is  made  too  dependent  already  on 
the  Legislature,  by  the  power  of  one  branch  to  try  him  in  conse- 
quence of  an  impeachi.  nt  by  the  other.  This  intermediate  suspen- 
sion, will  put  him  in  the  power  of  one  branch  only.  They  can  at 
any  moment,  in  order  to  make  way  for  the  functions  of  another  who 
will  be  more  favorable  to  their  views,  vote  a  temporary  removal  of 
the  existing  Magistrate. 

MT  Kino  concurred  in  the  opposition  to  the  amendment 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  it 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C*  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
V?  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.* 

Art.  1.  sect  4.  "  except  as  to  the  places  of  choosing  Senators  " » 
added  nem:  con:  to  the  end  of  the  first  clause,  in  order  to  exempi 
the  seats  of  Govi  in  the  States  from  the  power  of  Congress. 

•  "  By  lot "  had  been  re-initated  from  the  Report  of  five  made  Aue  6  aa  a 
correction  of  the  printed  report  by  the  Con»«  of  itf:^  A  arrangement.'  ' 


...  '.  ^."  ^i^jT'S**'']?*  "•"  '"*•  '«■•*»'  "  Penn»ylvania,  Delaware.  Maryland 
\.rgima,  North  Carofjna  ay«^i  New  Hampehire,  Mawachueett..  Conn^icut 
New  Jeriey,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 6  ^  «:»."vui,, 

from'  fVll^:!^^^  n"  °°^.  'e»da  "  follows:  "  •  By  lot,'  had  been  reinstated 
from  the  Report  of  the  Committee  of  five  made  on  the  sixth  of  Aiunut  ai  a  cor- 
rection  of  the  prmted  Report  by  the  Committee  of  style  4c  " 

•Jht  transcript  uses  the  word  "office"  in  the  plural. 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  South  Carolina,  Georsia. 
??  ,  '  ,^,  Hampshire.  MassachusetU,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania.  Delaware 
Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  no-8."  a»»yi»ania,  rieiaware, 

•  The  word  "  was  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


m 


562      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Art.  1.  Sect.  5.  "  Each  House  shall  keep  a  Journal  of  its  pro- 
ceedings, and  from  time  to  time  publish  the  same,  excepting  such 
parts  as  may  in  their  judgment  require  secresy." 

Col:  Mason  &  Mr  Qbbbt  moved  to  insert  after  the  word  "  parts  " 
the  words  "  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Senate  "  so  as  to  require  pub* 
lication  of  all  the  proceedings  of  the  House  of  Bepresentatives. 

It  was  intimated  on  the  other  side  that  cases  might  arise  where 
secresy  might  be  necessary  in  both  Houses.  Measures  preparatory  to 
a  declaration  of  war  in  which  the  House  of  Bep!  was  to  concur,  were 
instanced. 

On  the  question,  it  passed  in  the  negative 

N.  H.  no.  (Rh.  labs)  Mas.no.  Con:  no.  (N.  T.  abs)  N.  J.  no. 
Pen.  ay.  Del.  no.  Maty.  ay.  Virg.  no.  N.  C.  ay.  S.  C.  divl 
Geor.  no.' 

Mr  Baldwin  observed  that  the  clause,  Art.  1.  Sect  6.  declaring 
that  no  member  of  Congt  "  during  the  time  for  which  he  was  elected ; 
shall  be  appointed  to  any  Civil  office  under  the  authority  of  the 
U.  S.  which  shall  have  been  created,  or  the  emoluments  whereof  shall 
have  been  increased  during  such  time,"  would  not  extend  to  offices 
created  by  tke  Comtitution;  and  the  salaries  of  which  would  be 
created,  not  increased  by  Cong?  at  their  firnt  session.  The  members 
of  the  first  Congt  consequently  mi^t  evade  the  disqualification  in 
this  instance. — He  was  neither  seconded  nor  opposed;  nor  did  any 
thing  further  pass  on  the  subject. 

Art.  1.  Sect.  8.  The  Concrress  "  may  by  joint  ballot  appoint  a 
Treasurer  " 

M^  RuTUDOK  moved  to  strike  out  this  power,  and  let  the  Treasurer 
be  appointed  in  the  same  manner  with  other  officers. 

Mf  GoRHAH  &  Mr  Kino  said  that  the  motion,  if  agreed,  to  would 
have  a  mischievous  tendency.  The  people  are  accustomed  &  attached 
to  that  mode  of  appointing  Treasurers,  and  the  innovation  will 
multiply  objections  to  the  System. 

MI  Govt  Morbis  remarked  that  if  the  Treasurer  be  not  appointed 
by  the  Legislature,  he  will  be  more  narrowly  watched,  and  more 
readily  impeached. 

M*.  Sherman.  As  the  two  Houses  appropriate  money,  it  is  best 
for  them  to  appoint  the  officer  who  is  to  keep  it ;  and  to  appoint  him 
as  they  make  the  appropriation,  not  by  joint  but  several  votes. 

GenJ  Pinknet.     The  Treasurer  is  appointed  by  joint  ballot  in 

•In  the  tranBcript  the  rote  reada:  " PemiiylvaniA,  Maryland,  North  Caro- 
lina, aye — 3;  New  HampBhire,  MaMachuwtts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Dela- 
ware,  Virginia,  Georgia,  no— 7." 


SESSION  OF  FBIDAT,  SEPTEMBEB  14,  1787         563 

SoQth  Candina.  The  conaeqoenee  ia  that  bad  appointments  are  made, 
and  the  Legislature  will  not  listen  to  the  faults  of  their  own  officer. 

On  the  motion  to  strike  oat 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  ay.-  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  W  ay. 
V!  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.   Geo.  ay-^ 

Art  I.  sect.  8.'  "  but  all  such  duties  imposts  ft  excises,  shall  be 
uniform  throughout  the  U.  S."  was*  unanimously  annexed  to  the 
power  of  taxation. 

*To  d^ne  ft  punish  piracies  and  felonies  on  the  high  seas,  and 
"  punish  "  offences  against  the  law  of  nations. 

W  Qoy*.  MoRBis  moved  to  strike  out  "  punish  "  before  the  words 
"  offences  ag!*  the  law  of  nations,"  so  as  to  let  these  be  definabU 
as  well  as  punishable,  by  virtue  of  the  preceding  member  of  the 
sentence. 

HP  WiusoN  hoped  the  alterati(m  would  by  no  means  be  made. 
To  pretend  to  define  the  law  of  nations  which  depended  on  the 
authority  of  all  the  civilized  nations  of  the  world,  would  have  a  look 
of  arrogance,  that  would  make  us  ridiculous. 

Mt  Govt  *  The  word  define  is  proper  when  applied  to  offences  in 
this  case;  the  law  of  nations  being  often  too  vague  and  deficient  to 
be  a  rule. 

On  the  question  to  strike  out  the  word  "  punish  "  it  passed  in 
the  afSrmative 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  G  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P?  no.  Del.  ay.  M!f  no. 
V*  no.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.* 

Doc^  Fbankun  moved*  to  add  after  the  words  "  post  roads  " 
Art  I.  Sect  8.  "  a  power  to  provide  for  cutting  canals  where  deemed 
necessary  " 

M^  WoflON  2^^  the  motion 

IP  Shermah  objected.  The  expence  in  such  cases  will  fall  on  the 
U.  States,  and  the  benefit  accrue  to  the  places  where  the  canals  suy 
be  cut. 

"TUa  motion  by  Dr  Fnnklin  not  stated  ia  th*  priated  J«iira«l,  as  trt 
tome  other  motiona. 


'In  the  tnnicript  the  vote  read*:  "Kew  HampeUre,  Coniieetieut,  Mew 
Jeney,  Delaware,  Manrland,  North  Carolina,  Sonth  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8; 
Manaehuaetta,  PenniylTania,  Virginia,  no— S." 

'  The  ezpreeaion  "  the  word* "  is  here  inaerted  in  the  traaicript. 

■  The  word  "  wai "  ii  changed  in  the  tranaeript  to  "  were." 

*  The  worda  "  On  the  claoae  "  are  liere  tniertea  in  the  tranaeript. 

■  The  name  "  Morria  "  ia  here  inaerted  in  tite  tranaeript. 

'In  the  tranaeript  the  rote  reada:  "New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  New 
Jereej,  Delaware,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  aye— 6;  Blaaaachuietta,  Penn- 
sylvania, Maryland,  VirginU,  Georgia,  no— 6." 


564      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

W  WniSOM.  Instead  of  being  an  ezpence  to  the  U.  S.  they  may 
be  made  a  lource  of  revenue. 

M'  Madison  raggesttHl  an  enlargement  of  the  motion  into  a  power 
"  to  grant  charters  of  incorporation  where  the  interest  of  the 
U.  S.  might  require  &  the  legislative  provisions  of  individual  States 
may  be  incompetent."  His  primary  object  was  however  to  secure 
an  easy  communication  between  the  States  which  the  free  inter- 
course now  to  be  opened,  seemed  to  call  for.  The  political  obstacles 
being  removed,  a  removal  of  the  natural  ones  as  far  as  possible  ought 
to  follow.    M!  Randolph  2^  the  proposition 

ilR  Kino  tnought  the  power  unnecessary. 

MT  Wilson.  It  is  necessary  to  prevent  a  State  from  obstructing 
the  general  welfare. 

M'  Kino.  The  States  will  be  prejudiced  and  divided  into  parties 
by  it.  In  Philadf  &  New  York,  It  will  be  referred  to  the  establish- 
ment of  a  Bank,  which  has  been  a  subject  of  contention  in  those 
Cities.    In  other  places  it  will  be  referred  to  mercantile  monopolies. 

M^  Wilson  mentioned  the  importance  of  facilitating  by  canals, 
the  communication  with  the  West  /•  Settlements.  As  to  Banks  he 
did  not  think  with  Mr  King  thai  t\n  power  in  that  point  of  view 
would  excite  the  prejudices  &  parties  apprehended.  As  to  mercantile 
monopolies  they  are  already  included  in  the  power  to  regulate  trade. 

Col:  Mason  was  for  limiting  the  powf  to  the  single  case  of 
Canals.  He  was  afraid  of  monopolies  of  every  sort,  which  he  did 
not  think  were  by  any  means  already  implied  by  the  Constitution  as 
supposed  by  M?  W:lson. 

The  motion  being  so  modified  as  to  admit  a  distinct  question 
specifying  &  limited  to  the  case  of  canals, 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CJ  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  no.  W.  no. 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

The  other  part  fell  of  course,  as  including  the  power  rejected. 

Mr  Madison  &  M*.  Pinkney  then  moved  to  insert  in  the  list  of 
powers  vested  in  Congress  a  power — "  to  establish  an  Uciv"'*  .^  in 
which  no  preierences  or  distinctions  should  be  allowed  on  nt 

of  Religion." 

Mr  Wii^ON  supported  the  motion 

M'.  Gov^  MoRKis.  It  is  not  necessary.  The  exclusive  power  at  the 
Seat  of  Government,  will  reach  the  object. 

On  the  question 


■  In  the  transcript  the  vote  readc  "  Pennsylvania,  Virginia,  Georgia,  aye — 3; 
New  Hampsliire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Maryland, 
North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no — 8." 


SESSION  OP  FRIDAY,  SEPTEMBER  14,  1787         565 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  no.  Con!  divf  IK  Johnson  ay.  Ml  Sherman  no. 
N.  J.  no.  P?  ay.  Del.  no.  Ml  no.  V!  ay.  N.  C.  ay,  S.  C.  ay. 
Geo.  no.* 

Col :  Mabon,  being  aensible  that  an  abaolate  prohibition  of  atand- 
ing  armies  in  time  of  peace  might  be  unsafe,  and  wishing  at  the 
same  time  to  inatrt  something  pointing  out  and  guarding  against  the 
danger  of  them,  moved  to  preface  the  clause  (Art  I  sect  8)  "To 
provide  for  organizing,  arming  and  disciplining  the  Militia  &c  "  with 
the  words  "  "  And  that  the  liberties  of  the  people  may  be  better 
secured  against  the  danger  of  standing  armies  in  time  of  peace  " 
M'.  Randolph  2*?*  the  motion 

Mr  Madison  was  in  favor  of  it.  It  did  not  restrain  Congress 
from  establishing  a  military  force  in  time  of  peace  if  found  neces- 
sary ;  and  as  armies  in  time  of  peace  are  allowed  on  all  hands  to  be 
an  evil,  it  is  well  to  discountenance  them  by  the  Constitution, 
as  far  as  will  consist  with  the  essential  power  of  the  Qovl  on  that 
head. 

M^  Gov^  MtHuos  opposed  the  motion  as  setting  a  dishonorable 
mark  of  distinction  on  the  military  class  of  Citizens 

W  PmKNET  &  M?  Bedford  concurred  in  the  opposition. 

On  the  question 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  Ct  no.  N.  J.  no.  P?  no.  Del.  no.  Maryf  no 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

Col:  Mason  moved  to  strike  out  from  the  clause  (art  I  sect  9.) 
"  No  bill  of  attainder  nor  any  expost  facto  law  shall  be  passed  "  the 
words  "  nor  any  ex  post  facto  law."  He  thought  it  not  sufficiently 
clear  that  the  prohibition  meant  by  this  phrase  was  limited  to  cases 
of  a  criminal  nature,  and  no  Legislature  ever  did  or  can  altogether 
avoid  them  in  Civil  cases. 

M!  Gerrt  2*?*  the  motion  but  with  a  view  to  extend  the  prohibi- 
tion to  "  Civil  cases,"  which  he  thought  ought  to  be  done. 

On  the  question;  all  the  States  were— no 

MT  PiNKNEY  &  M'.  Gerbt,  moved  to  insert  a  declaration  "  that 
the  liberty  of  the  Press  should  be  inviolably  observed." 

M^  Sherman.  It  is  unnecessary.  The  power  of  Congress  docs 
not  extend  to  the  Press.    On  the  question,  it  passed  in  the  negative 


'  In  the  tranicript  the  vote  re*d»:  "  Penn«ylvanta.  Virginia,  North  Carolina, 
South  Carolina,  aye— ♦;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetta,  New  Jeraey,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Georgia,  no— 6;  Connecticut,  divided  [Dr.  Johnion,  aye;  Mr.  Sher- 
mftn,  Tio  1  •  __      — .- 

■  In  the  tranwript  the  vote  readi;  "  VirginU,  Georgia,  aye— 2;  New  Hamp- 
shire, Mai»achu»ettB,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Penniiylvania,  Delaware,  Mary- 
land, North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  no— 9." 


Ijll 

I 


566     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

N.  H.  no.»  Mu.  a7.  C!  no.  N.  J.  no.  P*  no.  Del.  na  Ml  ay 
7*  ay.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.' 

Art.  I.  Sect.  9.  "No  capitation  tax  shall  be  laid,  onleaa  &c  " 
Mr  Read  moved  to  inMrt  after  "  capiution  "  the  words,  "  or 
other  direct  tax  "  He  waa  afraid  that  some  liberty  might  otherwise 
be  taken  to  saddle  the  States,  with  a  readjustment  by  this  rule,  of 
past  requisitions  of  Cong?— and  that  his  amendment  by  giving  another 
cast  to  the  meaning  would  take  away  the  pretext,  m  Wiluambon 
2*r*  the  motion  which  was  agreed  to,  On  motion  of  Cd:  Mason  » 
"  or  enumeration  "»  inserted  a^er,  as  explanatwy  of  "  Census  " 
Con.  &  S.  C.  only,  no. 

•  Here  insert  the  amendment  added  in  the  lateral  margin.* 

•  At  the  end  of  the  clause  "  no  tax  or  duty  shall  be  laid  on  articles 
exported  from  any  State  "  was  added  the  foUowing  amendment  con- 
formably to  a  vote  on  the  day  of  •  via— no  preference 
shaU  be  given  by  any  regulation  of  commerxse  or  revenue  to  the 
ports  of  one  State  over  those  of  another:  nor  shaU  vessels  bound  to  or 
from  one  State,  be  obliged  to  enter,  clear  or  pay  duties  in  another. 

Col.  Mason  moved  a  clause  requiring  "  that  an  Account  of  the 
public  expenditures  should  be  annually  published  "  M^  Okbst  2** 
the  motion 

M:  Govr  Morris  urged  that  this  w^  be  impossible  in  many  cases. 

M?  Kino  remarked,  that  the  term  expenditures  went  to  every 
minute  shiUing.  This  would  be  impracticable.  Cong*  mi^t  indeed 
make  a  monthly  publication,  but  it  would  be  in  such  general  state- 
ments as  would  afford  no  satisfactory  information. 

Ml  Madbon  proposed  to  strike  out  "  annuaUy  "  from  the  motion 
Sc  insert  "  from  time  to  time,"  which  would  enjoin  the  duty  of  fre- 
quent publications  and  leave  enough  to  the  discretion  of  the  Legis- 
lature. Require  too  much  and  the  difficulty  will  beget  a  habit  of 
doing  nothing.  The  articles  of  Confederation  require  half-yearly 
publications  on  this  subject.  A  punctual  compliance  being  oftc  -  im- 
possible, the  practice  has  ceased  altogether. 

*  In  the  printed  Journal  N.  Hunpehlre  ».j. 


o.  ..  ^»  *•>?.  t"n»e'>Pt  the  vote  readi:  "  M««MLchu«stte,  MarrUnd  Vir«inia 
South  Carolina.  *ye-t;  New  Hampehire.*  Connecticut.  New  JerSer  pL™S' 
vania,  DeUware,  North  Carolina,  CteSrgia/no-r'  ''  ^'"^'^^ 

'  The  exprewion  "the  word.  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
•  The  word  "  were  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript.     "™"'"" 
.^H^L'...'i;^"°2  concerning  the  amendment  is  omitted  in  the  tran*!ript 
•The  date  "thirty-flrst  of  Augurt"  U  supplied  in  the  transcript  ^ 


SESSION  OP  SATUBDAT,  SEPTEMBER  15,  1787       667 

M^  Wilson  2*^  ft  ntpported  the  motion.  Many  operation*  of 
finance  can  not  be  properly  pabliahed  at  certain  timea. 

MT  PiNKNET  waa  in  favor  of  the  motion. 

MT  FrrziMHONB.  It  is  abmlutely  impoarible  to  pabliah  expendi- 
tures in  the  full  extent  of  the  term. 

M'.  Shebman  thought  "  from  time  to  time  "  the  beat  rule  to  be 
given. 

"  Annual  "  was  struck  out— A  those  words — inserted  nem:  con: 

The  motion  of  Col:  Mason  so  amended  was  then  agreed  to  nem: 
con:  and  added  after — "  appropriations  by  law  as  follows — "  and  a 
regular  statement  and  account  of  the  receipts  &  expenditures  of  all 
public  money  shall  be  published  from  time  to  time  " 

Here  insert  the  Amendment  at  the  foot  of  the  page  ^ 

*  The  first  clause  of  Art  I  Sect  10 — ^was  altered  so  as  to  read — 
' '  No  State  shall  enter  into  any  Treaty  alliance  or  confederation ;  grant 
letters  of  marque  and  reprisal;  coin  money;  emit  bills  of  credit; 
make  any  thing  but  gold  ft  silver  coin  a  tender  in  payment  of  debts ; 
pass  any  bill  of  attainder,  ex  post  *  law,  or  law  impairing  the  obliga- 
tion of  contracts,  or  grant  any  title  of  nobili^." 

M^  GotRT  entered  into  observations  inculcating  the  importance  of 
public  faith,  and  the  pr(q>riety  of  the  restraint  put  on  the  States 
from  impairing  the  obligation  of  contracts,  alledging  that  Congress 
ought  to  be  laid  under  the  like  prohibitions,  he  made  a  motion  to  that 
effect.    He  was  not  2^^ 

Adjourned. 


( 


Satubdat  Sep?  15Th  1787.»    In  Convention 


Mf  Cabrol  reminded  the  House  that  no  address  to  the  people 
had  yet  been  prepared.  He  considered  it  of  great  importance  that 
such  an  one  should  accompany  the  Constitution.  The  people  had 
been  accustomed  to  such  on  great  occasions,  and  would  expect  it  on 
this.  He  moved  that  a  Committee  be  appointed  for  the  special  pur- 
pose of  preparing  an  Address. 

M!  BuTLEDOE  objected  on  account  of  the  delay  it  would  produce 
and  the  impropriety  of  addressing  the  people  before  it  was  known 
whether  Congress  would  approve  and  support  the  plan.    Coagnas, 

'  Madison's  direction  concerning  the  amendment  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  word  "  facto  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

*  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  tha  tranacript 


hi 

H  ill 


868      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

if  an  addreM  b«  thoaght  proper  can  prepare  u  good  a  one.  The 
memben  of  the  Convention  can  alio  explain  the  reaaons  of  what  haa 
been  done  to  their  respective  Conatituenta. 

Mr  Sheruan  concurred  in  the  opinion  that  an  addresa  waa  both 
onnecessary  and  improper. 

On  the  motion  of  M:  Carrol 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  no.  C\  no.  N.  J.  no.  P*  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.»  abet    S.  C*  no.    Geo.  no' 

iS^  Langdon.  Some  gentlemen  have  been  very  oneaay  that  no 
increaae  of  the  number  of  Representatives  has  been  admitted.  It 
haa  in  particular  been  thought  that  one  more  ought  to  be  allowed 
to  N.  Carolina.  He  was  of  opinion  that  an  additional  one  waa  due 
both  to  that  State  &  to  Rho:  Island,  &  moved  to  reconsider  for  that 
purpose. 

Mr  Sherman.  When  the  Committee  of  eleven  reported  the  ap- 
portionment— five  Representatives  were  thought  the  proper  share  of 
N.  Carolina.  Subsequent  information  however  seemed  to  entitle 
that  State  to  another. 

On  the  motion  to  reconsider 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  no.  Pen.  divl  Del.  ay. 
W  ay.    Yt  ay.   N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 

M?  Lanodon  moved  to  add  1  member  to  each  of  the  Representa- 
tions of  N.  Carolina  &  Rho:  Island. 

W.  Kino  was  agP  any  change  whatever  as  opening  the  door  f<» 
delays.  There  had  been  no  official  proof  that  the  numbers  of  N.  C. 
are  greater  than  before  estimated,  and  he  never  could  sign  the  Con- 
stitution if  Rho:  Island  is  to  be  allowed  two  members  that  is,  one 
fourth  of  the  number  allowed  to  Masste,  which  will  be  known  to 
be  unjust. 

Mr  PiNi.NET  urged  the  propriety  of  increasing  the  number  of 
Rep!  allotted  to  N.  Carolina. 

M!  Bedford  contended  for  an  increase  in  favor  of  Rho:  Island, 
and  of  Delaware  also 

On  the  question  for  allowing  two  Rep!  to  Rho :  Island,  it  passed 
in  the  negative 

*In  the  printed  Journal  N.  Carolina;— no  k  S.  Carol:  omitted. 


In  the  transcript  the  vote  readt:  "Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Vir- 
ginia, aye — i ;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Soutli 
Carolina,*  Georgia,  no— 6;  North  Carolina,*  absent." 

w  '}°  ^H  f  "•cript  the  vote  reads:  "  New  Hampshire,  Connecticut,  Delaware, 
Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye— 8:  Massa- 
chusetts, New  Jersey,  no— 2;  Pennsylvania,  divided. 


SESSION  OP  8ATUEDAT,  SEPTEMBER  15,  1787       669 

N.  H.  ay.  Mm.  no.  Ct  no.  N.  J.  no.  P!  no.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V*  no.    N.  C.  ay.   S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

On  the  qaeation  for  allowing  liz  to  N.  Carolina,  it  pa«ed  in  the 
negative. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  C^  no.  N.  J.  no.  R  no.  Del.  no.  M«  ay. 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Geo.  ay.' 

Art  1.  Sect.  10.  (paragraph  2).  "  No  State  ahall,  without  the 
consent  of  Congress  lay  imposts  or  duties  on  imports  or  exports; 
nor  with  such  consent,  but  to  the  use  of  the  Treasury  of  the  U. 
States." 

In  consequence  of  the  proviso  moved  by  Col :  Mason :  and  agreed 
to  on  the  13  *  Sep!,  this  part  of  the  section  waa  laid  aside  in  favor 
of  the  following  substitute  via.  "  No  State  ahall,  without  the  consent 
of  Congress,  lay  any  imposts  or  dntlM  on  imports  or  exports,  ex- 
cept what  may  be  abadntely  neoeasary  for  executing  its  Inspection 
laws;  and  the  nett  produce  of  all  duties  and  imposts,  laid  by  any 
State  on  importa  or  exports,  shall  be  for  the  use  of  the  Treasury  of 
the  U.  S;  and  all  soeh  laws  shall  be  subject  to  the  revision  and 
controul  of  the  Congress  " 

On  a  motion  to  strike  out  the  last  part  "  and  all  such  laws  shall 
be  subject  to  the  revision  and  controul  of  the  Congress  "  it  passed 
in  the  negative. 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CJ  no.  N.  J.  no.  T*.  divl  Del.  no.  M^  no. 
V»  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.* 

The  substitute  was  then  agreed  to:  Virgf  alone  being  in  the 
negative. 

The  remainder  of  the  paragraph  being  under  consideration— 
viz — "  nor  keep  troops  nor  ships  of  war  in  time  of  peace,  nor 
enter  into  any  agreement  or  compact  with  another  State,  nor  with 
any  foreign  power.  Nor  engage  in  any  war,  unless  it  shall  be 
actually  invaded  by  enemies,  or  the  danger  of  invasion  be  so  im- 
minent as  not  to  admit  of  delay,  until  Congress  can  be  consulted  " 

Ml  M?  HmKBT  &  Mt  Carrol  moved  that  "  no  State  shall  be  re- 


'In  the  tmiaeript  the  rote  readi:  "New  Hampihire,  DeUware,  MaryUnd, 
North  Carolinia,  Georgia,  aye — 5;  Mauachuietta,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Penn- 
■yWania,  VircinU,  South  Carolina,  no— «." 

*  In  the  tranacript  the  vote  read*:  "Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina, 
Kouth  Carolina,  Oeoigia,  aye— 6;  New  Hampshire,  Maaaachuaetti,  Connecticut, 
New  Jersey,  Pennsylrania,  Delaware,  no— «." 

•  The  word  "  of  "  is  here  inserted  In  the  transcript. 

•In  the  transcript  the  rote  reads:  "Virginia,  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  aye 
—3;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Mary- 
land, South  Carolina,  no— 7;  PennqrlTania,  divided." 


670     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

itraiaed  from  laying  dutiei  of  tonnage  for  the  parpoae  of  eleariiif 
hArboan  and  erecting  light-honaet. " 

Col.  Mason  in  rapport  of  thia  explained  and  urged  the  sitoation 
of  the  Chesapeak  which  peculiarly  reqaired  expeneea  of  thia  aort 

yp.  Govr  MoRsis.  The  Statea  are  not  restrained  from  laying  ton- 
nage aa  the  Conatitation  now  Stands.  The  exception  propoaed  will 
imply  the  contrary,  and  will  put  the  SUtea  in  a  wone  condition  than 
the  gentleman  [Col  Maion]  wiahea. 

W  Madison.  Whether  the  Sutea  are  now  restrained  from  lay- 
ing tonnage  dutiea  dependa  on  the  extent  of  the  power  "  to  regu- 
late commerce."  Thoee  terma  are  vague,  but  aeem  to  exdude  this 
power  of  the  States.  They  may  certainly  be  restrained  by  Treaty. 
He  obaerred  that  there  were  other  objects  for  tonnage  Duties  aa  the 
rapport  of  Seamen  Ac.  He  was  more  &  more  convinced  that  the 
regulation  of  Commerce  was  in  its  nature  indivisible  and  ought  to 
be  wholly  under  one  authority. 

MI  Shkhman.  The  power  of  the  U.  States  to  regulate  trade  being 
aupreme  can  controul  interferences  of  the  SUte  regulations  when' 
rach  interferences  happen;  ao  that  there  is  no  danger  to  be  appre- 
hended from  a  c<mcurrent  jurisdiction. 

M'.  Lanodon  inaisted  that  the  regulation  of  tonnage  waa  an 
essential  part  of  the  regulation  of  trade,  and  that  the  States  ought 
to  have  nothing  to  do  with  it.  On  motion  "  that  no  State  shall 
lay  any  duty  on  tonnage  without  the  Conaent  of  Congress  " 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  CI  div^  N.  J.  ay.  P«  no.  Del  ay.  M?  ay. 
V»  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  ay.    Geo.  no.» 

The  remainder  of  the  paragraph  waa  then  remoulded  and  passed 
aa  followa  vis—"  No  State  shall  without  the  consent  of  Congress, 
lay  any  duty  of  tonnage,  keep  troopa  or  ships  of  war  in  time  of 
peace,  enter  into  any  agreement  or  compact  with  another  State, 
or  with  a  foreign  power,  or  engage  in  war,  unless  actually  invaded, 
or  in  rach  imminent  danger  as  will  not  admit  of  delay." 

•Art  II.  sect  1.  (paragraph  6)  "or  the  period  for  chusing 
another  president  arrive  "  was  changed  into  "  or  a  President  shall 
be  elected  "  conformRbly  to  a  vote  of  the  day  of 


'In  Mwliion'.  Botei  the  word  "when"  h  written  above  "which."  The 
traaicnpt  uiea  "  when." 

'In  the  trenecript  the  vote  reada:  "New  Hampehire,  KaHachueetta  New 

il^^^'r^^r"*^  Maryland^uth  Carolina,  aye-58rPenn.ylTanirvftgfato^ 

North  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— t;  Connecticut,  divided."  .        a       . 

i,*!.'  ^^  *'*  *'u°v'*rvP*  thi.  paragraph  reads  at  follow*:  "Article  2,  lect.  1,  (the 

•ixth  paragraph)   the  wordi  'or  the  period  for  chooeing  another  Preeident  ar- 


SESSION  OF  SATURDAT,  SEPTEMBER  15.  1787       571 

ST.  RuTUDOK  and  Doer  Fbamxuii  mortd  to  annex  to  the  end  of 
paragraph  7.  Sect.  1.  art  II—"  and  he  [the  Preddent]  abail  not 
reeeive,  within  that  period,  any  other  emoloment  from  the  U.  8. 
or  any  of  them,"  on  which  qoeetion 

N.  H.  ay.  Maa.  ay.  Q  no.  N.  J.  no.  Pf  ay.  DeL  no.  Ml  aj. 
V*  ay.    N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  ay.    Oeo.  ay.* 

Art:  II.  Sect  2.  "he  ahall  have  power  to  grant  reprierea  and 
pardoni  for  offence*  againat  the  U.  S.  4o  " 

M^  Ramdolpr  moved  to  "  ezeept  eaaea  of  treaaon."  The  pre- 
rogative of  pardon  in  theae  eaaea  waa  too  great  a  tniat  The  Preai- 
dent  may  himaelf  be  guilty.  The  Traytora  may  be  hia  own  in- 
■tmmenta. 

Col:  Mabon  supported  the  motion. 

Mt  OotT  Moaais  had  rather  there  should  be  no  pardon  for  treaaon, 
than  let  the  power  devolve  <m  the  Legislature. 

Ml  Wilson.  Pardon  is  necessary  for  eaaea  of  treason,  and  ia 
best  placed  in  the  hands  of  the  Executive.  If  he  be  himself  a  party 
to  the  guilt  he  can  be  impeached  and  prosecuted. 

M*.  Kino  thought  it  would  be  inconsistent  with  the  Constitutional 
separation  of  the  Executive  ft  Legislative  powers  to  let  the  pre- 
rogative be  exercised  by  the  latter.  A  Legislative  body  is  utterly 
unfit  for  the  purpose.  They  are  governed  too  much  by  the  pa» 
sions  of  the  moment  In  Massachusseta,  one  aasembly  would  have 
hung  all  the  insurgents  in  that  State:  the  next  waa  equally  dia- 
posed  to  pardon  them  all.  He  suggested  the  expedient  of  requiring 
the  concurrence  of  the  Senate  in  Acta  of  Pardon. 

M^  Madibon  admitted  the  force  of  objectiona  to  the  Legislature, 
but  the  pardon  of  treaaona  waa  so  peculiarly  improper  for  the 
President  that  he  should  acquiesce  in  the  transfer  of  it  to  the 
former,  rather  than  leave  it  altogether  in  the  hands  of  the  latter. 
He  would  prefer  to  either  an  association  of  the  Senate  as  a  Council 
of  advice,  with  the  President 

M?  Randolph  eould  not  admit  the  Senate  into  a  share  of  the 
Power,  the  great  danger  to  liberty  lay  in  a  combination  between 
the  President  &  that  body. 

Col:  Mabon.  The  Senate  has  already  too  much  power.  There 
can  be  no  danger  of  too  much  lenity  in  legislative  pardons,  as  the 
Senate  must  con  eoaewe,  &  the  President  moreover  can  require  %  of 
both  Houses. 


'  In  the  tnnicript  the  vote  readi:  "  New  Hampshire,  Manachusetti,  Penn- 
e^lvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  South  Carolina,  Oeorgia,  aye — 7;  Connecticut,  New 
Jersey,  Delaware,  North  Carolina,  no— »." 


S72     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

On  the  m.'^tion  of  HP.  Randolph 

N.  H.  no.  Mm.  no.  d  divl  N.  J.  no.  Pt  no.  Del.  no.  W  no. 
y.  ay.    N.  C.  no.    8.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.' 

Art  II.  Sect.  2.  (paragraph  2)  To  the  end  of  thia,  Ml  OovBUft 
Mouia  moved  to  annex  "  but  the  Congrew  may  by  law  vest  the 
appointment  of  auch  inferior  officera  aa  they  think  proper,  in  the 
President  alone,  in  the  Court*  of  law,  or  in  the  heada  of  Depart- 
menta."    M!  Shdman  2^  the  motion 

M'.  Maduion.  It  does  not  go  far  enough  if  it  be  necessary  at  all. 
Superior  officers  below  Heads  of  Departments  ought  in  some  cases 
to  have  the  appointment  of  the  lesser  offices. 

M^  Oovr  Mo«ri8  There  is  no  necenity.  Blank  commissi<Hia  can 
be  sent — 

On  the  motion 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  no.  CJ  ay.  N.  J.  ty.  P*  ay.  Del.  no.  M'?  divl 
V*  no.    N.  C.  ay.    8  C  no.    Geo.  no.» 

The  motion  being  lost  by  the*  equal  division  of  votes,  It  waa 
urged  that  it  be  put  a  second  time,  some  such  provision  being  too 
necessary  to  be  omitted,  and  or.  a  second  question  it  waa  agreed  to 
nem.  con. 

Art  II.  Sect.  1.  The  words,  "and  not  per  capita  "—were 
struck  out  as  superfluous— and  the  words  "  by  the  Representatives  " 
also— as  improper,  the  choice  of  a  *  President  being  in  another  mode 
as  well  as  eventually  by  the  House  of  Rep! 

Art.  II.  Sect.  2.  After*  "  officers  of  the  IT.  S.  whose  appoint- 
menu  are  not  otherwise  provided  for."  were  added  the  worda  "  and 
which  shall  be  established  by  law." 

Art  III.  Sect  2.  parag:  3.  Ml  Pinkott  &  Ml  Geeby  moved  to 
annex  to  the  end,  "  Ahd  a  trial  by  jury  shall  be  preserved  as  usual 
in  civil  cases." 

MT  GoBBAU.  The  constitution  of  Juries  is  different  in  different 
States  and  the  trial  itself  is  utual  in  different  cases  in  different 
States. 

M:  Kino  urged  the  same  objections 


.w,.  vff  I  •fr'''*v*'"  '';'•  '*^!;  Virginia,  G«orgi«.  tye-2;  New  Hamp- 
•hlre,  M«M«chnwtt..  New  Jerwy.  Penniylvanin,  Delaware,  MarVland.  North 
Carolina.  South  Carolina,  no— 8;  Connecticut,  divided"  "-'J"""".   "or»n 

'In  the  tranwript  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampahire.  Connecticut  New 
Jertey  Pennsylvania,  North  Carolina,  aye-5:  Mac  ichuwct.  IWawMe  VU^ 
finU.  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no-8,  Marvland,  divided."  "*'•''•'•'   "^^ 

The  word  "  an  "  it  lubftituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  the." 
,  B*  ''°"*     •  "  »•  omitted  in  the  transcript. 
The  ezpresaion  "  the  worda  »  ia  here  inserted  in  the  transcript 


SESSION  OF  8ATUBDAT,  SEPTEMBEB  18,  1787       573 

Of&'  Pnnunrr  ftlao.  H«  tkoogbt  raoh  »  eUuM  in  Um  Conitttn- 
tion  would  b«  prtfnaat  with  tmburuimaiu. 

Th*  motion  wm  diMgrMd  to  ntm :  eon : 

Art  IV.  8«et  2.  puwf :  8.  th«  term  "  Icgtlly  "  um  itrnek  eat, 
and*  "  under  the  Uwi  thereof  "  inaerted  a^e»  the  word  "  State," 
in  compliance  with  the  wish  of  aome  who  thooi^t  the  term  legal  * 
equivoeal,  and  favoring  the  idea  that  alaTer7  waa  legal  in  a  moral 
view. 

Art.  IV.  Sect  3.  "  New  Statea  may  be  admitted  by  the  Congra« 
into  thia  Union:  bnt  no  new  Sute  ahall  be  formed  or  erected  within 
the  Juriadietion  of  any  other  State;  nor  any  State  be  formed  by 
the  junction  of  two  or  more  Statea,  or  parta  of  Statea,  without  the 
conaent  of  the  Legialatnrea  of  the  Statea  concerned  aa  well  aa  of  the 
Cong"' 

W.  Qehmy  moved  to  inaert  after  "  or  parta  of  States  "  the  worda 
"  or  a  Sute  and  part  of  a  State  "  which  waa  diaagned  to  by  a 
large  majority;  it  appearing  to  be  auppooed  that  the  case  waa  com 
prehended  in  the  worda  of  the  danae  aa  reported  by  the  Committee. 

Art.  IV.  Sect.  4.  After  the  word  "  Executive  "  were  inaerted 
the  words  "  when  the  Legislature  can  not  be  convened." 

Art.  V.  **  The  Congress,  whenever  two  thirda  of  both  Houses 
shall  deem  necessary,  or  on  the  application  of  two  thirds  of  the 
Legislatures  of  the  several  States  ahall  propose  amendmenta  to  this 
Constitution,  which  shall  be  valid  to  all  intenta  and  purposes  aa 
part  thereof,  when  the  same  shall  have  been  ratified  by  three  fourtha 
at  least  of  the  Legislatures  of  the  several  States,  or  by  Conventions 
in  three  fourths  thereof,  aa  the  one  or  the  other  mode  of  ratification 
may  be  proposed  by  the  Congress:  Provided  that  no  amendment 
which  may  be  made  prior  to  the  year  1808  shall  in  any  manner 
affect  the  1  &  4  clauses  in  the  9.  section  of  article  1  " 

Mr  Sherman  expressed  his  fears  that  three  fourths  of  the  States 
might  be  brought  to  do  things  fatal  to  particular  States,  as  abolish- 
ing them  altogether  or  depriving  them  of  their  equality  in  the 
Senate.  He  thought  it  reasonable  that  the  proviso  in  favor  of  the 
States  importing  slaves  should  be  extended  so  as  to  provide  that  no 
State  should  be  affected  in  its  internal  police,  or  deprived  of  ita 
equality  in  the  Senate. 

Col:  Mason  thought  the  plan  of  amending  the  Constitution  ex- 
ceptionable &  dangerous.     Aa  the  proposing  of  amendments  is  in 


'  The  esprcMion  "  the  word*  "  i(  here  interted  in  the  tnnKript. 
*  The  trstticript  iUUcizea  the  word  "  legal." 


574      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

both  the  modes  to  depend,  in  the  first  immediately,  in  the  sec- 
ond, ultimately,  on  Congress,  no  amendments  o£  the  proper  kind 
would  ever  be  obtained  by  the  people,  if  the  Oovemment  should 
become  oppressive,  as  he  verily  believed  would  be  the  case. 

M!  Oovr  Morris  &  Mt  Oerrt  moved  to  amend  the  article  so  as 
to  require  a  Convention  on  application  of  %  of  the  Sts. 

\  Madison  did  not  see  why  Congress  would  not  be  as  much 
bound  to  propose  amendments  applied  for  by  two  thirds  of  the 
States  as  to  call  a  call  a  Convention  on  the  like  application.  He  saw  no 
objection  however  against  providing  for  a  Convention  for  the  pur- 
pose of  amendments,  except  only  that  difiSculties  might  arise  as  to 
the  form,  the  quorum  &c.  which  in  Constitutional  regulations  ought 
to  be  88  much  as  possible  avoided. 

The  motion  of  M!  Gov!  Morris  &  ir  Gerrt  was  agreed  to  nem: 
con :  [see  the  first  part  of  the  article  as  finally  past]  ^ 

Mr  Sherman  moved  to  strike  out  of  art.  V.  after  "  legislatures  " 
the  words  "  of  three  fourths  "  and  so  after  the  word  "  Conven- 
tions "  leaving  future  Conventions  to  act  in  this  matter,  like  the 
present  Conventions '  according  to  circumstances. 

On  this  motion 

N.  H.  divl  Mas.  ay.  C!  ay.  N.  J.  ay,  P^  no.  Del.  no.  W  no. 
Yt  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

M!  Gerry  moved  to  strike  out  the  words  "  or  by  Conventions  in 
three  fourths  thereof  " 

On  this*  motion 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CI  ay.  N.  J.  no.  P!  no.  Del.  no.  Ml  no. 
V!  no.    N.  C.  no,    S.  C.  no     Geo.  no." 

M^  Sherman  moved  according  to  his  idea  above  expressed  to 
annex  to  the  end  of  the  article  a  further  proviso  "  that  no  State 
shall  without  its  consent  be  affected  in  its  internal  police,  or  de- 
prived of  its  equal  suffrage  in  the  Senate." 

M?  Madison.  Begin  with  these  special  provisos,  and  every  State 
will  insist  on  them,  for  their  boundaries,  exports  &c. 

On  the  motion  of  M?  Sherman 


'  Madison's  direction  is  omitted  in  tlie  transcript 

•  Tlie  transcript  uses  ti»e  word  "  Conventions  "  in  the  singular. 

•  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey, 
aye— 3;  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland.  Virginia.  North  Carolina,  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  no — 7;  New  Hampshire,  divided." 

'  The  word  "  which  "  is  rabstituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  this." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  ave — 1;  New  Hampshire, 

Massachusetts,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania.  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North 

Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no— 10." 


SESSION  OP  SATURDAY,  SEPTEMBER  15,  1787       575 


K  no.    Del.  ay.    W  no. 


N.  H.  no.    Maa.  no.    C3  ay.    N.  J.  ay. 
V!  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.' 

M'.  Sherman  then  moved  to  strike  ont  art  V  altogether 

Mt  Brearlst  2^?*  the  motion,  on  which 

N.  H.  no.  Maa.  no.  C*  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  P^  no.  Del  divl  M"?  no. 
V!  no.    N.  C.  no.    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  no.» 

Mr  Govr  Morris  moved  to  annex  a  further  proviso—"  that  no 
State,  without  its  consent  shall  be  deprived  of  its  equal  suffrage  in 
the  Senate  " 

This  motion  being  dictated  by  the  circulating  murmurs  of  the 
small  States  was  agreed  to  without  debate,  no  one  opposing  it,  or 
on  the  question,  saying  no. 

Col:  Mason  expressing  his  discontent  at  the  power  given  to 
Congress  by  a  bare  majority  to  pass  navigation  acts,  which  he  said 
would  not  only  enhance  the  freight,  a  consequence  he  did  not  so 
much  regard — but  would  enable  a  few  rich  merchants  in  Philad' 
N.  York  &  Boston,  to  monopolize  the  Staples  of  the  Southern  States 
&  reduce  their  value  perhaps  50  Per  C? — moved  a  further  proviso 
"  that  no  law  in*  nature  of  a  navigation  act  be  passed  before  the 
year  1808,  without  the  consent  of  %  of  each  branch  of  the  Legis- 
lature "    On  this*  motion 

N.  H.  no.  Mas.  no.  CI  no.  N.  J.  no.  P»  no.  Del.  no.  M'?  ay. 
V!  ay.    N.  C.  absi    S.  C.  no.    Geo.  ay.» 

in  Randolph  animadverting  on  the  indefinite  and  dangerous 
power  given  by  the  Constitution  to  Congress,  expressing  the  pain 
he  felt  at  differing  from  the  body  of  the  Convention,  on  the  close 
of  the  great  &  awful  subject  of  their  labours,  and  anxiously  wish- 
ing for  some  accomodating  expedient  which  would  relieve  him 
from  hia  embarrassments,  made  a  motion  importing  "  that  amend- 
ments to  the  plan  might  be  offered  by  the  State  Conventions,  which 
should  be  submitted  to  and  finally  decided  on  by  another  general 
Convention  "  Should  this  proposition  be  disregarded,  it  would  he 
said  be  impossible  for  him  m  put  his  name  to  the  instrument. 
Whether  he  should  oppose  it  afterwards  he  would  not  then  decide 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads :  "  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  aye 
—3;  New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North 
Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  no^8." 

'  In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  aye — 2;  New 
Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Carolina, 
South  Carolina,  Georsia,  no — 8;  Delaware,  divided." 

' The  word  " the"  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 

•  The  word  "  which  "  is  substituted  In  the  transcr&t  for  "  this." 

•In  the  transcript  the  vote  reads:  "Maryland,  Virginia,  Georgia,  aye — 3; 
Xew  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Dclu- 
ware,  South  Carolina,  no— 7 ;  North  Carolina,  absent." 


I 


J 


576      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

but  he  would  not  deprive  himself  of  the  freedom  to  do  ao  in  his 
own  State,  if  that  course  should  be  prescribed  by  his  flnni 
judgment. 

Col:  Mason  2*^  &  followed  M'-  Randolph  in  animadvetBions  on 
the  dangerous  power  and  structure  of  the  Govenunent,  concluding 
that  it  would  end  either  in  monarchy,  or  a  tyrannical  aristocracy; 
which,  he  was  in  doubt,  but  one  or  other,  he  was  sure.  This  C<m- 
stitution  had  been  formed  without  the  knowledge  or  idea  of  the 
people.  A  second  Convention  will  know  more  of  the  sense  of  the 
people,  and  be  able  to  provide  a  system  more  consonant  to  it.  It 
was  improper  to  say  to  the  people,  take  this  or  nothing.  As  the 
Constitution  now  stands,  he  could  neither  give  it  his  support  or* 
vote  in  Virginia;  and  he  could  not  sign  here  what  he  could  not  sup- 
port there.  With  the  expedient  of  another  Convention  as  proposed, 
he  could  sign. 

W  PiNKNEnr.  These  declarations  from  members  so  respectable 
at  the  doee  of  this  important  scene,  give  a  peculiar  solemnity  to 
the  present  moment.  He  descanted  on  the  consequences  of  calling 
forth  the  deliberations  &  amendments  of  the  different  States  on 
the  subject  of  Government  at  large.  Nothing  but  confusion  &  con- 
trariety could'  spring  from  the  experiment.  The  States  will  never 
agree  in  their  plans,  and  the  Deputies  to  a  second  Convention  com- 
ing together  under  the  discordant  impressions  of  their  Constituents, 
will  never  agree.  Conventions  are  serious  things,  and  ought  not 
to  be  repeated.  He  was  not  without  objections  as  well  as  others  to 
the  plan.  He  objected  to  the  contemptible  weakness  &  dependence 
of  the  Executive.  He  objected  to  the  power  of  a  majority  only  of 
Cong;  over  Commerce.  But  apprehending  the  danger  of  a  general 
confusion,  and  an  ultimate  decision  by  the  sword,  he  should  give 
the  plan  his  support. 

Mr  Oerrt,  stated  the  objections  which  determined  him  to  with- 
hold his  name  from  the  Constitution.  1.  the  duration  and  re- 
eligibility  of  the  Senate.  2.  the  power  of  the  House  of  Representa- 
tives to  conceal  their  journals.  3.  the  power  of  Congress  over  the 
places  of  election.  4  the  unlimited  power  of  Congress  over  their 
own  compensations.  5.'  Massachusetts  has  not  a  due  share  of  Rep- 
resentatives allotted  to  her.  6.»  %  of  the  Blacks  are  to  be  represented 
as  if  they  were  freemen.  7.»  Under  the  power  over  commerce, 
monopolies  may  be  established.     8.  The  vice  president  being  made 


'  The  word  "  or  "  ii  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  nor." 

'  The  word  "  will  "  is  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  could." 

•  The  word  "  that "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  SEPTEMBER  17,  1787         577 

head  of  the  Senate.  He  coold  however  he  said  get  over  all  theae,  if 
the  rights  of  the  Citizens  were  not  rendered  insecure  1.*  by  the 
general  power  of  the  Legislature  to  make  what  laws  they  may  please 
to  call  necessary  and  proper.  2.*  raise  armies  and  money  without  limit. 
3.*  to  establish  a  tribunal  without  juries,  which  will  be  a  Star-chamber 
as  to  Civil  cases.  Under  such  a  view  of  the  Constitution,  the  best 
that  could  be  done  he  conceived  was  to  provide  for  a  second  gen- 
eral Convention. 

On  the  question  on  the  proposition  of  M^  Randolph.  All  the 
States  answered — no 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  the  Constitution,  as  amended.  All 
the  States  ay. 

The  Constitution  was  then  ordered  to  be  emproased. 

And  the  House  adjourned. 


! 


Monday  Sep?  17.  1787 :  *  In  Convention 

The  engrossed  Constitution  being  read, 

Dod  Fbanklw  rose  with  a  speech  in  his  hand,  which  he  had 
reduced  to  writing  for  his  own  conveniency,'  and  which  Mr  Wilson 
read  in  the  words  following. 

M:  President 

I  confess  that  there  are  several  parts  of  this  constitution  which 
I  do  not  at  present  approve,  but  I  am  not  sure  I  shall  never  approve 
them:  For  having  lived  long,  I  have  experienced  many  instances 
of  being  obliged  by  better  information,  or  fuller  consideration,  to 
change  opinions  even  on  important  subjects,  which  I  once  thought 
right,  but  found  to  be  otherwise.  It  is  therefore  that  the  older  I 
grow,  the  more  apt  I  am  to  doubt  my  own  judgment,  and  to  pay 
more  respect  to  the  judgment  of  others.  Most  men  indeed  as  well 
as  most  sects  in  Religion,  think  themselves  in  possession  of  all  truth, 
and  that  wherever  others  differ  from  them  it  is  so  far  error.  Steele 
a  Protestant  in  a  Dedication  tells  the  Pope,  that  the  only  difference 
between  our  Churches  in  their  opinions  of  the  certainty  of  their 
doctrines  is,  the  Church  of  Rome  is  infallible  and  the  Church  of 
England  is  never  in  the  wrong.    But  though  many  private  persons 


'  The  figure  "  1  "  ii  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  firat." 

'  The  figure  "  2  "  is  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  secondly,  to." 

'  The  figure  "  3  "  is  changed  in  the  transcript  to  "  thirdly  " 

•  The  year  "  1787  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

•The  word  " coavcniency "  is  changed  in  the  transcript  to  " conTcnience." 


678      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

think  almost  as  highly  of  their  own  infallibility  as  of  that  of  their 
sect,  few  express  it  so  naturally  as  a  ceitain  french  lady,  who  in  a 
dispute  with  her  sister,  said  "  I  don't  know  how  it  happens.  Sister 
but  I  meet  with  no  body  but  myself,  that's  always  in  the  right — 
II  n'y  a  que  moi  qui  a  tou jours  rauon." 

In  these  sentiments,  Sir,  I  agree  to  thi*  Constitution  with  all 
its  faults,  if  they  are  such;  because  I  think  a  general  Government 
necessary  for  us,  and  there  is  no  form  of  (Government  but  what  may 
be  a  blessing  to  the  people  if  well  administered,  and  believe  farther 
that  this  is  likely  to  be  well  administered  for  a  course  of  years,  and 
can  only  end  in  Despotism,  as  other  forms  have  done  before  it, 
when  the  people  shall  become  so  corrupted  as  to  need  despotic  Gov- 
ernment, being  incapable  of  any  other.  I  doubt  too  whether  any 
other  Convention  we  can  obtain,  may  bt  able  to  make  a  better  Con- 
stitution. For  when  you  assemble  a  number  of  men  to  have  the 
advantage  of  their  joint  wisdom,  you  inevitably  assemble  with  those 
men,  all  their  prejudices,  their  passions,  their  errors  of  opinion, 
their  local  interests,  and  their  selfish  views.  From  such  an  assembly 
can  a  perfect  production  be  expetitedt  It  therefore  astonishes  me. 
Sir,  to  find  this  system  approaching  so  near  to  perfection  as  it  does ; 
and  I  think  it  will  astonish  our  enemies,  who  are  waiting  with  con- 
fidence to  hear  that  our  councils  are  confounded  like  those  of  the 
Builders  of  Babel;  and  that  our  States  are  on  the  point  of  separa- 
tion, only  to  meet  hereafter  for  the  purpose  of  cutting  one  another's 
throats.  Thus  I  consent.  Sir,  to  this  Constitution  because  I  expect 
no  better,  and  because  I  am  not  sure,  that  it  is  not  the  best.  The 
opinions  I  have  ha '  of  its  errors,  I  sacrifice  to  the  public  good.  I 
have  never  whispered  a  syllable  of  them  abroad.  Within  these 
walls  they  were  bom,  and  here  they  shall  die.  If  every  one  of 
us  in  returning  to  our  Constituents  were  to  report  the  objec- 
tions he  has  had  to  it,  and  endeavor  to  gain  partizans  in  sup- 
port of  them,  we  might  prevent  its  being  generally  received,  and 
thereby  lose  all  the  salutary  effects  &  great  advantages  result- 
ing naturally  in  our  favor  among  foreign  Nations  as  well  as  among 
ourselves,  from  our  real  or  apparent  unanimity.  Much  of  the 
strength  &  efficiency  of  any  Government  in  procuring  and  securing 
happiness  to  the  people,  depends,  on  opinion,  on  the  general  opinion 
of  the  goodness  of  the  Government,  as  well  as  well  as  of  the  wisdom  and 
integrity  of  its  Governors.  I  hope  therefore  that  for  our  own  sakes 
as  a  part  of  the  people,  and  for  the  sake  of  posterity,  we  shall  act 
heartily  and  unanimously  in  recommending  this  Constitution  (if 
approved  by  Congress  &  confirmed  by  the  Conventions)  wherever 


SESSION  OP  MONDAY,  SEPTEMBER  17,  1787         679 

our  iofluenee  may  extend,  and  turn  our  future  thoughts  ft  en- 
deavo»  to  the  means  of  having  it  well  adminiatred. 

On  the  whole,  Sir,  I  can  not  help  expressing  a  wish  that  every 
member  of  the  Convention  who  may  still  have  objections  to  it,  would 
with  me,  on  this  occasion  doubt  a  little  of  his  own  infallibility,  and  to 
make  manifest  our  unanimity,  put  his  name  to  this  instrument. — 

He  then  moved  that  the  Constitution  be  signed  by  the  members 
and  offered  the  foDowiag  as  a  convenient  form  viz.  "  Done  in  Conven- 
tion by  the  unanimous  consent  of  the  States  present  the  17'^  of 
SepT  &c — In  Wftness  whereof  we  have  hereunto  subscribed  our 
names." 

This  ambiguous  form  had  been  drawn  up  by  M'.  O.  M.  in  order  to 
gain  the  dissenting  members,  and  put  into  the  hands  of  Doc?  Frank- 
lin that  it  mi^t  have  the  better  chance  of  success. 

M;  GoBHAM  said  if  it  was  not  too  late  he  could  wish,  for  the 
purpose  of  lessening  obi'<"^iona  to  the  Constitution,  that  the  clause 
declaring  "  the  number  mi  Representatives  shall  not  exceed  one  for 
every  forty  thousand  "  which  had  produced  so  much  discussion, 
might  be  yet  reconsidered,  in  order  to  strike  out  40,000  &  insert 
"  thirty  thousand."  This  would  not  he  remarked  establish  that  as 
an  absolute  rule,  but  only  give  Congress  a  greater  latitude  which 
could  not  be  thought  unreasonable. 

M'.  Ema  &  ilR  Casbol  seconded  &  supported  the  ideas  of  VX 
Gorham. 

When  the  President  rose,  for  the  purpose  of  putting  the  ques- 
tion, he  said  that  although  his  situation  had  hitherto  restrained 
him  from  offering  his  sentiments  on  questions  depending  in  the 
House,  and  it  mi|^t  be  thought,  ought  now  to  impose  silence  on  him, 
yet  he  could  not  furbear  expressing  his  wish  that  the  alteration 
proposed  might  take  place.  It  was  much  to  be  desired  that  the 
objections  to  the  plan  recommended  might  be  made  as  few  as  pos- 
sible. The  nnallness  of  the  proportion  of  RepresentAtives  had  been 
considered  by  many  members  of  the  Convention  an  insufficient 
security  for  the  rights  &  interests  of  the  people.  He  acknowledged 
that  it  had  always  appeared  to  himself  among  the  exceptionable 
parts  of  the  plan,  and  late  as  the  pr  ^ent  moment  was  for  admitting 
amendments,  he  thought  this  of  so  much  consequence  that  it  would 
give*  much  satisfaction  to  see  it  adopted* 

•Tr«n»fer  the  remarks  in  brtcketg,  to  the  bottom  margin.* 
*  [This  was  the  only  occasicn  on  which  the  President  entered  at  all  into 
the  discussions  of  the  Convention]. 


'  The  word  "  him  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  transcript. 
•  Kfa(ii«on'»  dirrction  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


580     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

No  oppoution  wu  made  to  the  proposition  of  W  Gorham  aad 
it  was  agreed  to  naanimonaly. 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  the  Constitntion  enrolled  in  order 
to  be  signed.    It  was  agreed  to  all  the  States^  answering  ay. 

M?  BxNDOiiPH  then  rose  and  with  an  allusion  to  the  obitervationa 
of  Doet  Franklin  apologized  for  his  refusing  to  sign  the  Constitu- 
tion  notwithstanding  the  vast  majority  &  venerable  names  that 
would  give  sanction  to  its  wisdom  and  its  worth.  He  said  however 
that  he  did  not  mean  by  this  refusal  to  decide  that  he  should  oppose 
the  Constitution  without  doors.  He  meant  only  to  keep  himself  free 
to  be  governed  by  his  duty  as  it  should  be  prescribed  by  his  future 
judgment.  He  refused  to  sign,  because  he  thought  the  object  of  the 
Conventicm  would  be  frustrated  by  the  alternative  which  it  presented 
to  the  people.  Nine  States  will  fail  to  ratify  the  plan  and  eon- 
fusion  must  ensue.  With  such  a  view  of  the  subject  he  ought  not, 
he  cculd  not,  by  pledging  himself  to  support  the  plan,  restrain  him- 
self from  taking  such  steps  as  might  appear  to  him  most  consistent 
with  the  public  good. 

W.  Ck>v^  MoKBis  said  that  he  too  had  objections,  but  cimsider- 
ing  the  present  plan  as  the  best  that  was  to  be  attained,  he  should 
take  it  with  all  its  faults.  The  majority  had  determined  in  its 
favor  and  by  that  determination  he  should  abide.  The  moment 
this  plan  goes  forth  all  other  considerations  will  be  laid  aside,  and 
the  great  question  will  be,  shall  there  be  a  national  Qovemment  or 
nott  and  this  must  take  place  or  a  general  anarehy  will  be  the 
alternative.  He  remarked  that  the  signing  in  the  form  proposed 
related  only  to  the  fact  that  the '  States  present  were  unanimous. 

Mr  WiiiiJAMSON  suggested  that  the  signing  should  be  confined  to 
the  letter  accompanying  the  Constitution  to  Congress,  which  might 
perhaps  do  nearly  as  well,  and  would  he  found  be  ■  satisfactory  to  some 
members*  who  disliked  the  Constitution.  For  himself  he  did  not 
think  a  better  plan  was  to  be  expected  and  had  no  scruples  against 
putting  his  name  to  it. 

W.  Havilton  expressed  his  anxiety  that  every  member  should 
sign.  A  few  characters  of  consequence,  by  opposing  or  even  refus- 
ing to  sign  the  Constitution,  might  do  infinite  mischief  by  kindling 
the  latent  sparks  which  *  lark  under  an  enthusiasm  in  favor  of  the 

*  He  alluded  to  M;  Blount  for  one. 


■  The  word  "  Statei  •*  U  lUlicized  in  the  transcript. 
"  The  transcript  italicizes  the  word  "  the." 

•  The  words  "  be  found  "  are  substituted  in  the  transcript  for  "  he  found  be." 

*  The  word  "  which  "  is  changed  ia  the  transcript  to  "  that." 


SESSION  OF  MONDAY,  SEPTEMBER  17,  1787         581 

Convention  which  may  soon  robiide.  No  man's  idea*  were  more 
remote  from  the  plan  than  hi«'  were  known  to  be;  but  i*  it 
poMible  to  deliberate  between  anarchy  and  Convulsion  on  one  side, 
and  the  ehanee  of  good  to  be  expected  from  the  plan  on  the  other. 
M'.  Blocnt  said  he  had  declared  that  he  would  not  sign,  so  as  to 
pledge  himself  in  support  of  the  plan,  but  he  was  relieved  by  the 
form  proposed  and  would  without  committing  himself  attest  the 
fact  that  the  plan  was  the  unanimous  act  of  the  States  in  Con- 
vention. 

Dotf  Prankun  expressed  his  fears  from  what  W  Bandolph  had 
said,  that  he  thought  himself  alluded  to  in  the  remarks  offered 
this  morning  to  the  House.  He  declared  that  when  drawing  up 
that  paper  he  did  not  know  that  any  particular  member  would 
refuse  to  sign  his  name  to  the  instrument,  and  hoped  to  be  so  under- 
stood. He  professed  a  high  sense  of  obligation  to  M'.  Bandolph  for 
having  brought  forward  the  plan  in  the  first  instance,  and  for 
the  assistance  he  had  given  in  its  progress,  and  hoped  that  he 
would  yet  lay  aside  his  objections,  and  by  concurring  with  his 
brethren,  prevent  the  great  mischief  which  the  refusal  of  his  name 
might  produce. 

MI  Randolph  could  not  but  regard  the  signing  in  the  propoMd 
form,  as  tbi  same  with  signing  the  Constitution.  The  change  of 
form  therefore  could  make  no  difference  with  him.  He  repeated 
that  in  refusing  to  sign  the  Constitution,  he  took  a  step  which 
might  be  the  most  awful  of  his  life,  but  it  was  dicUted  by  his 
conscience,  and  it  was  not  possible  for  him  to  hesiUte,  much  less, 
to  change.  He  repeated  also  his  persuasion,  that  the  holding  out 
this  plan  with  a  final  alternative  to  the  people,  of  accepting  or 
rejecting  it  in  toto,  would  really  produce  the  anarchy  ft  civil  con- 
vulsions which  were  apprehended  from  the  refusal  of  individuals 

to  sign  it.  .        •  J 

W.  Gerbt  described  the  painful  feelings  of  his  situation,  and 
the  embarrassment*  under  which  he  rose  to  offer  any  further  ob- 
servations on  the  subject  w«^  had  been  finally  decided.  Whilst  the 
plan  was  depending,  he  had  treated  it  with  all  the  freedom  he 
thought  it  deserved.  He  now  felt  himself  bound  as  he  was  dis- 
posed to  treat  it  with  the  respect  due  to  the  Act  of  the  Conven- 
tion. He  hoped  he  should  not  violate  that  respect  in  declaring  on 
this  occasion  his  fears  that  a  Civil  war  may  result  from  the  present 
crisis  of  the  U.  S.    In  Maasachussetts.  particularly  he  saw  the  dan- 

•  The  word  "  own  "  is  here  inserted  in  the  tranMript. 

•  The  transcript  uae*  the  word  "  embarraMinent "  in  the  plural. 


582     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

ger  of  this  cklamitooi  event— In  that  State  there  are  two  parties, 
one  devoted  to  Democracy,  the  worst  he  thought  of  all  political 
evils,  the  other  as  violent  in  the  opposite  extreme.  From  the 
collision  of  these  in  opposing  and  resisting  the  Constitation,  con- 
fusion was  greatly  to  be  feared.  He  had  thought  it  necessary,  for 
this  A  other  reasons  that  the  plan  should  have  been  proposed  in  a 
more  mediating  shape,  in  order  to  abate  the  heat  and  opposition  of 
parties.  As  it  has  been  passed  by  the  Convention,  he  was  per- 
suaded it  would  have  a  contrary  effect.  He  could  not  therefore  by 
signing  the  Constitution  pledge  himself  to  abide  by  it  at  all  events. 
The  proposed  form  made  no  difference  with  him.  But  if  it  were 
not  otherwise  apparent,  the  refusals  to  sign  should  never  be  known 
from  him.  Alluding  to  the  remarks  of  Doc'  Franklin,  he  could 
not  he  said  but  view  them  as  levelled  at  himself  and  the  other 
gentlemen  who  meant  not  to  sign ; 

Gen?  PiNKincY.  We  are  not  likely  to  gain  many  converts  by 
the  ambiguity  of  the  proposed  form  of  signing.  He  thought  it 
best  to  be  candid  nad  let  the  form  speak  the  substance.  If  the 
meaning  of  the  signers  be  left  in  doubt,  his  purpose  would  not  be 
answered.  He  should  sign  the  Constitution  with  a  vi<>w  to  support 
it  with  all  his  influence,  and  wished  to  pledge  himself  accordingly. 

Doc!  Fbanklin.  It  is  too  soon  to  pledge  ourselves  before  Con- 
gress and  our  Constituents  shall  have  approved  the  plan. 

M!  Inoebsol  did  not  consider  the  signing,  either  as  a  mere 
attestation  of  the  fact,  or  as  pledging  the  signers  to  support  the 
Constitution  at  all  events;  but  as  a  recommendation,  of  what,  all 
things  coniddered,  was  the  most  eligible. 

On  the  motion  of  Dod  Franklin 

N.  H.  ay.  Mas.  ay.  Ci  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  K  ay.  Del.  ay.  Ml  ay. 
V*  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    S.  C.  div^  •    Geo.  ay.* 

Mr  King  suggested  that  the  Journals  of  the  Convention  should 
be  either  destroyed,  or  deposited  in  the  custody  of  the  President. 
He  thought  if  suffered  to  be  made  public,  a  bad  use  would  be 
made  of  them  by  those  who  would  wish  to  prevent  the  adoption 
of  the  Constitution. 

•  Gen!  Pinkney  t  M'  Butler  dieliked  the  enniTooil  form  of  the  •  Bigninif. 
•nd  on  that  account  votpd  \n  the  negative. 

•  To  be  transferred  hi  .ner.' 


'  The  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  thi-  transcript. 

•In  the  tranaciipt  the  vote  reads:  "New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts.  Con- 
necticut. New  Jersey.  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  Virginia,  North  Caro- 
lina, (.eorjfia,  aye— 10;  South  Carolina,"  divided."   " 

•  Madison's  direction  concerning  his  note  ia  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


•-^•'- 


"<3> 


:>/ 


>.>» 


HE88I0N  OF  MONDAY.  SEPTEMBER  17,  1787         58S 

W  WiLCON  prefered  the  lecond  «ip«dieot,  he  bad  at  one  tim* 
liked  the  tint  beirt;  bat  h  falae  miffceetiona  may  bt  propagatrd  it 
should  not  be  made  impoMible  to  contradict  them. 

A  question  was  then  put  on  depositing  the  Journals  and  other 
papers  of  the  Convention  in  the  hands  of  the  President,  on  which, 

N.  H.  V.  M'J"  ay.  Ct  ay.  N.  J.  ay.  Pen^  ay.  Del.  *y.  M"*  •  no. 
V?  ay.    N.  C.  ay.    8.  C.  ay.    Oeo.  ay.' 

The  President  having  askt>d  what  the  Convention  meant  should 
be  done  with  the  Journals  Ac,  whether  copies  were  to  be  allowed 
to  th?  members  if  applied  for.  It  was  Resolved  nem:  con:  "  that 
he  .n  the  Journal  and  other  papers,  subject  to  the  order  of 
the  *  Congress,  if  ever  formed  under  the  Constitution. 

The  members  then  proceeded  to  sign  the  instrument.* 

■  Whilst  the  laiit  members  were  aigning  it  *  Doctt  Prankun  look- 
ing towards  the  Presidents  Chair,  at  the  back  of  which  a  rising 
sun  happenet^  to  be  painted,  observed  to  a  few  members  near  him, 
that  Painters  had  found  it  difficult  to  distinguish  in  their  art  a 
rising  from  a  setting  sun.  I  have  said  he,  often  and  often  in  the 
couTM  of  the  Session,  and  the  vieisitudes  of  my  hopes  and  fears 
as  to  iU  issue,  looked  at  that  behind  the  President  without  being 
able  to  tell  whether  it  was  rising  or  setting:  But  now  at  length  I 
have  the  happiness  to  know  that  it  is  a  rising  and  not  a  setting  Sun. 

*  The  Constitution  being  signed  by  all  the  members  except  M^ 
Randolph,  W  Mason,  and  Mr  Oerry  who  declined  giving  it  the 
sanction  of  their  names,  the  Convention  disbolved  itself  by  an 
Ac"',  p-imcnt  vin«  die — 

*  Th«  few  alterations  and  corrections  made  in  these  debates  which 
are  not  in  my  hand  writing,  were  dictated  by  me  and  made  in  my 
presence  by  John  C.  Payne.  Jamis  Madison. 

*  ThU  MgatiT*  ot  Ifsrybuid  wsa  occs«ion>  d  by  the  Unsuage  of  the  Inatnie- 
tlrni  to  th«  DeputiM  of  that  8Utc,  whkh  required  UMin  to  report  to  tho 
State,  the  proceeding  of  the  CoBventioo. 

*  Transfer.' 


'  Maditon'a  direction  concerning  hii  note  is  omitted  in  the  tranicript. 

*In  the  tranicript  the  rote  read*:  "New  Hampahire,  Uaiaachuietti,  Con- 
necticut, New  Jereey,  Penniylvania,  Delaware,  Virginia,  North  Carolina,  South 
Carolina,  Georgia,  ayi'— 10;  Maryland.*  no— 1." 

*  The  word  "  the  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*  In  place  of  fje  word  "  instrument,"  the  transcript  inserts  the  following 
words:  "Constitution,  as  finally  amended,  as  follows."  The  Constitution  is  thin 
inscrtrd. 

*  These  two  final  paragraphs  of  Madison's  notes  are  transposed  in  the  tran- 
script to  follow  the  iiignature*  to  the  Constitution. 

*  The  word  "  it  "  is  omitted  in  the  transcript. 

*  This  statement  and  Madison's  signature  are  omitted  in  the  transcript. 


APPENDIX  I 


No.  1.     EXTBACT  OF  LbTTEH  FROM  GeNEBAL  KnOX  TO  GENERAL 

Washinqton,  Octobeb  23,  1786 ' 

....  Our  political  machine  constituted  of  thirteen  inr  ;  endeut 
sovereignties,  have  been  constantly  operating  against  ea  a  other, 
and  against  the  federal  head,  ever  since  the  peace.  The  ■'■u  rs  of 
CongTMs  are  utterly  inadequate  to  preserve  the  balance  bevcia  the 
respective  States,  and  cblige  them  to  do  those  things  Wu.cL  .-ir.' 
essential  to  their  own  welfare,  and  for  the  general  good.  The  human 
mind  in  the  local  legislatures  seems  to  be  exerted,  to  prevent  the 
federal  constitution  from  having  any  beneficial  effects.  The  machine 
works  inversely  to  the  public  good  in  all  its  parts.  Not  only  is  State 
against  State,  and  all  against  the  federal  head,  but  the  States  within 
themselves  possess  the  name  only,  without  having  the  essential  con- 
comitant of  government,  the  power  of  preserving  the  peace;  the 
protection  of  the  liberty  and  property  of  the  citizens. 

On  the  first  impression  of  Faction  and  licentiousness  the  fine 
theoretic  government  of  Massachusetts  has  given  way,  and  its  laws 
arrested  and  trampled  under  foot.  Men  at  a  distance,  who  have 
admired  our  systems  of  government,  unfounded  in  nature,  are  apt  to 
accuse  the  rulers,  and  say  that  taxes  have  been  assessed  too  high  and 
collected  too  rigidly.  This  is  a  deception  equal  to  any  that  has 
hitherto  been  entertained.  It  is  indeed  a  fact,  that  high  taxes  are  the 
ostensible  cause  of  the  commotions,  but  that  they  are  the  real  cause 
is  as  far  remote  from  truth  as  light  from  darkness.  The  people  who 
are  the  insurgents  have  never  paid  any,  or  but  every  little  taxes.  But 
they  see  the  weakness  of  government;  They  feel  at  once  their  own 
poverty,  compared  with  the  opulent,  and  their  own  force,  and  they  are 
determined  to  make  use  of  the  latter,  in  order  to  remedy  the  former. 
Their  creed  is  "  That  the  property  of  the  United  States,  has  been 
protected  from  the  confiscation  of  Britain  by  the  joint  exertions  of 
all,  and  therefore  ought  to  be  the  common  property  of  all.  And  he 
that  attempts  opposition  to  this  creed  is  an  enemy  to  equity  and 
justice,  and  ought  to  be  swept  from  off  the  face  of  the  earth."  In  a 
word  they  arc  determined  to  annihilate  all  debts  public  and  private 
and  have  agrarian  Laws,  which  are  easily  effected  by  the  means  of 
unfunded  paper  money  which  shall  be  a  tender  in  all  cases  whatever. 

The  numbers  of  these  people  may  amount  in  Massachusetts  to 
about  one  fifth  part  of  several  populous  counties,  and  to  them  may  be 
collected,  people  of  similar  sentiments,  from  the  States  of  Rhode 
Island,  Connecticut  and  New  Hampshire,  so  as  to  constitute  a  body 
of  12  or  15000  desperate  &  unprincipled  men.  They  are  chiefly  of 
the  young  and  active  part  of  the  community,  more  easily  collected 

*  The  text  of  the  aboTe  letter  is  printed  tram  the  original  among  the 
Washington  manuscripts  in  the  Library  of  Congress. 

sas 


i 


:i 


586      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

than  perhaps  kept  together  afterwards-  But  they  wiU  probablv 
commit  overt  acts  of  treason  which  will  compell  theii  to  embody  for 
tZr"^-  '"^fy-;^''''^  ^"^^^^^  they  will  be  constrained  TsubSj 
to  discipline  for  the  same  reason.  Having  proceeded  to  this  lenSh 
for  which  they  are  now  ripe,  we  shaU  hive  a  formidable  rebeuSn 
against  reason  the  principle  of  all  government,  aS  the  veS  name 
of  hberty.  This  dreadful  situaUon  has  alarmed  every  maL?f  S 
ciple  and  Property  in  New  England.  They  start  asfrora  dS 
and  ask  what  has  been  the  cause  of  our  delusion?    what  is  to  S 

must  be  braced,  changed,  or  altered  to  secure  our  lives  and  pZTiS 
We  unagmed  that  the  mildness  of  our  government  andtheT^ 
ot  the  people  were  so  correspondent,  that  we  were  not  as  other  nations 
requiring  brutal  iorce  to  support  the  law»-    But  we  find  tlS  we  ire 
men,  actus   men,  possessing  aU  the  turbulent  passions  belontrine  to 
that  anima^  and  that  we  must  have  a  govemnient  proper  aSfdS 
quate  for  him.     The  people  of  Massachusetts  for  iLtice   are  f^ 
advanced  in  this  doctrine,  and  the  men  of  reflection,  &  principle  are 
determined  to  endeavor  to  establish  a  government  which  3  iiJ^ 
the  power  to  protect  them  in  their  lawful  pursuits,  and  S  S 
be  efficient  in  all  cases  of  internal  commotions  or  foreign  inviiS 
They  mean  that  liberty  shall  be  the  basis,  a  liberty  resulting  from  t^e 
equal  and  firm  administration  of  the  laws.    The/ wish  for  a  general 
government  of  unity  as  they  see  the  local  legislatures,  must  JatSy 
and  nec^sanly  tend  to  retard  and  frustrate  all  generi  govemS  ^ 
.^Z^  h«ve  arrived  at  that  point  of  time  in  which  we%re  foreS'to 
see  our  national  humiliation,  and  that  a  progression  iT  thh  line 
cannot  be  productive  of  happiness  either  publicTprivate    Somethin.; 
s  wanting  and  something  must  be  done  or  we  shall  be  invohid  in  al! 
the  horror  of  faction  and  civil  war  without  a  prospect  of  its  ?erSna 
rXt  ^^%^,*"f  friend  to  the  liberties  of  his  count^  L  ImTto 
reflect,  and  to  step  forward  to  prevent  the  dreadful  con^uences 

we  stalTLrWe'tn  b  "  ^jr"^"*  °l^^«°*«-  Unless'thTis  doni 
we  Shall  be  liable  to  be  ruled  by  an  arbitraiy  and  capricious  armed 
tyranny,  whose  word  and  will  must  be  law.  f  .       '=*P""°'"  »™«1 

No.  2.  Extract  op  Letter  prom  John  Jay  to  Gbnebal 
Washington,  June  27,  1786  * 

»„^"  :u'  ■  ?^\  *?""  ^^  *°  ^^^  *o  some  crisis— some  Revolution— 
something  that  I  cannot  foresee,  or  conjecture.  I  am  SeMvTnd 
apprehensive-more  so,  than  during  the  War.    Then  we  hadTfixPd 

"r^&"ttf^i,'rT  r,^  *'"l^'  attaining  It  w^reof':^  jS' 
matical,  yet  I  did  firmly  believe  that  we  should  ultimately  succeed 
because  I  was  convinced  that  Justice  was  with  us.    The  c!L  isS; 

American  Retolutio».  Sparks    Editor    Vofiv'  (f^-i^    J°7,'^^'^^t^.°f  '** 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


587 


altered— we  are  going  and  doing  wrong,  and  therefore  I  look  forward 
to  Evils  and  calamities,  but  without  being  able  to  gra  p  at  the  Instru- 
ment Nature  or  measure  of  them.  That  we  shaU  again  recover,  and 
things  again  go  well,  I  have  no  Doubt-nsuch  a  variety  of  circumstances 
would  not  almost  miraculoujply  have  combined  to  liberate  and  make 
us  a  nation  for  transient  &  unimportant  Purposes.  I  therefore  be- 
lieve we  toe  yet  to  becon )  a  great  and  respoctable  People— but  when 
or  how,  the  Spirit  of  Prophecy  only  can  discem. 

There  doubtless  is  much  Reason  to  think  and  to  say  that  we  are 
woefully  and  in  many  Instances  wickedly  misled,  private  Rage  for 
Property  suppresses  public  considerations,  &  personal  rather  than 
national  Interests  have  become  the  great  objects  of  attention.  Repre- 
sentative Bodies  will  ever  be  faithful  copies  of  their  originals,  and 
g:enerally  exhibit  a  chequered  assemblage  of  virtue  and  vice,  of  abili- 
ties and  weakness.  The  Mass  of  Men  are  neither  wise  nor  good— and 
the  virtue  like  the  other  Besourees  of  a  country  can  only  be  drawn 
to  a  point  by  strong  circumstances  ably  managed,  or  strong  govern- 
ment ably  administred.  New  Governments  have  not  the  aid  of 
Habit  and  hereditary  Respect;  &  being  generally  the  Reslult  of 
preceding  Tumult  and  confusion,  do  not  immediately  acquire  Stability 
or  Strength.  Besides,  in  times  of  commotion  some  men  will  gain 
confidence  &  Importance  who  merit  neither;  and  who  like  political 
mountebanks  are  less  soUicitous  about  the  Health  of  the  credulous 
Crowd,  than  about  making  the  most  of  their  Nostrums  &  Prescriptions 

New  York  was  rendered  less  foederal,  by  the  opinions  of  the  late 
President  of  Congress.  This  is  a  singular  tho'  not  unaccountable 
*act—indeed  human  actions  are  seldom  inexplicable.  What  I  most 
fear  is,  that  the  better  kind  of  People  (by  which  I  mean  the  People 
who  are  orderly  and  industrious,  who  are  content  with  their  situations 
and  not  uneasy  in  their  Cireumstances,)  will  be  led  by  the  Insecurity 
of  Property,  the  Loss  oJ  Confidence  in  their  Rulers,  &  the  Want  of 
public  Faith  &  Rectitude,  to  consider  the  charms  of  Liberty  as 
imaginary  and  delusive.  A  State  of  uncertainty  and  Fluctuation  must 
disgust  and  alarm  such  men,  and  prepare  their  minds  for  almost  any 
change  that  may  promise  them  Quiet  &  Security.  .   .   . 

No.  3.  EzTBACT  OF  Lettbb  from  General  Washinoton 
TO  John  Jat,  August  1,  1786  ^ 

....  Tour  sentiments,  that  our  affairs  are  drawing  rapidly  to 
a  cnsis,  accord  with  my  own.  What  the  event  will  be  is  also  beyond 
the  reach  of  my  foresight.  We  have  errors  to  correct;  we  have 
probably  had  too  good  an  opinion  of  human  nature  in  forming  our 
confederation.  Experience  has  taught  ns,  that  men  will  not  adopt 
&  carry  into  execution,  measures  the  best  calculated  for  their  own 
good,  without  the  intervention  of  a  coercive  power.    I  do  not  conceive 

"The  text  of  the  above  letUr  U  printed  frmn  Waehlngtoa'i  letter  book. 
Washington  manuMript.  in  the  Librmiy  of  CoogreM.    See  also  The  WHting,  of 

and  Pu6Jio  Paper*  o/  Jo\m  Jay,  Johnston,  Editor,  Vol.  Ill  (1891),  pp.  a»7-209. 


588     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  COXVENTION  OP  1787 

we  can  exist  long  as  a  nation  without  having  lodged  somewhere  a 
power  whicR  will  pervade  the  whole  union  in  as  energetic  a  manner, 
as  the  authority  of  the  State  Governments  extends  over  the  several 
States.  To  be  fearful  of  investing  Congress,  constituted  as  that  body 
is,  with  ample  authorities  for  national  purposes,  appears  to  me  the 
very  climax  of  popular  absurdity  &  madness.  Could  Congress  exert 
them  for  the  detriment  of  the  public,  without  injuring  themselves 
in  an  equal  or  greater  proportion  1  Are  not  their  interests  inseparably 
connected  with  those  of  their  constituents  T  By  the  rotation  of 
appointment  must  they  not  mingle  frequently  with  the  mass  of 
Citizens  f  Is  it  not  rather  to  be  apprehended,  if  they  were  possessed 
of  the  powers  before  described,  that  the  individual  members  would  be 
induced  to  use  them,  on  many  occasions,  very  timidly  &  inefficaciously 
for  fear  of  losing  their  popularity  and  future  election  t  We  must 
take  human  nature  as  we  find  it :  perfection  falls  not  to  the  share  of 
mortals.  Many  are  of  opinion  that  Congress  have  too  frequently 
made  use  of  the  suppliant  Lumble  tone  of  requisition,  in  applications 
to  the  States,  when  they  had  a  right  to  assert  their  imperial  dignity 
and  command  obedience.  Be  that  as  it  may,  requisitions  are  a  perfect 
nihility,  where  thirteen  soT-ereign,  independent,  disunited  States  are  in 
the  habit  of  discussing  &  refusing  compliance  with  them  at  their 
option.  Requisitions  are  actually  little  better  than  a  jest  &  a  bye 
word  throughout  the  land.  If  you  tell  the  Legislatures  they  have 
violated  the  Treaty  of  Peace,  &  invaded  the  prerogatives  of  the  con- 
federacy they  will  laugh  in  your  iaee.  Wluit  then  is  to  be  donef 
Things  cannot  go  on  in  the  same  train  forever.  It  is  much  to  be 
feared,  as  you  observe,  that  the  better  kind  of  people  being  disgusted 
with  the  circumstances,  will  have  their  minds  prepared  for  any 
revolution  whatever.  We  are  apt  to  run  from  one  extreme  into 
another.  To  anticipate  &  prevent  disastrous  contingencies,  would 
be  the  part  of  wisdom  &  patriotism. 

What  astonishing  changes  a  few  years  are  capable  of  producing. 
I  am  told  that  e\en  respectable  characters  speak  of  a  monarchical 
form  of  Government  without  horror.  From  thinking  proceeds  speak- 
ing, thence  to  acting  is  often  but  a  single  step.  But  how  irrevocable 
&  tremendous!  what  a  triumph  for  our  enemies  to  verify  their  pre- 
dictions— what  a  triumph  for  the  advocates  of  despotism  to  find  that 
we  are  incapable  of  governing  ourselves,  &  that  system-:  founded  on 
the  basis  of  equal  liberty  are  merely  ideal  &  fallacious!  Would  to 
God  that  wise  measures  may  be  taken  in  time  to  avert  the  consequences 
we  have  but  too  much  reason  to  apprehend. 

Retired  as  I  am  from  the  world  I  frankly  acknowledge  I  cannot 
feel  myself  an  unconcerned  spectator.  Tet  having  happily  assisted 
in  bringing  the  Ship  into  Port  &  having  been  fairly  discharged;  it 
is  not  my  business  to  embark  again  on  a  sea  of  troubles.  Nor  could  it 
be  expected  that  my  sentiments  and  opinions  would  have  much  weight 
on  the  minds  of  my  Countrymen; — ^they  have  been  neglected,  tho' 
given  as  a  last  legacy  in  the  most  solemn  manner : — I  had  then  perhaps 
some  claims  to  public  attention — I  con-sider  myself  as  having  none 
at  present  .... 


APPENDIX  TO  Dl.  JATES 


689 


No.  1. 


APPENDIX  n 

ExTBACT  OF  Litter  pbom  Jambs  Madison  to 
Thomas  Jeffebson  ^ 


Dbab  Sib  ^'^  ^°'^  March  19*  1787. 

sign  It  to  the  care  of  Mr  Adams.  genueman,  who  will  con- 

Dana,  King,  Gerry,  and  Strong.  That  of  N  Vn!^v  ii*^"t7  •.""' 
Yat«,  &  Lan8ing.^'That  of  S  CarolSS,  M^^'LS  ?""""'' 
Pinkney,  (General)  Butler  anH  Chu^JuT^',  1  f*'**"^*®.  Laurens, 

the  Executive,  who  were  authorised  to  fill  vaca^L  llV^°  '*  ^^ 
IP  Wythe,  &  m  Blair  will  atte^  mH  J^?^  ***  Governor, 

of  Col.  Mason's  attendSce     Gen'  wih?f<S„i  ^if"  *"  entertained 

side  the  most  timid  are  compeUed  to  S^tr  Them  bv  tlS  ™ni  ? 
and  which  chaUenge  f rom  tha  vot«w  J^#  most  orthodox  republicans, 

'  The  text  of  the  above  letter  is  nrintoH  fmm  «i..      ^"^     i  ' 

manuscripts  in  the  Library  of  Con/JST    Se^I,   TjSTT 'A ''°''°?  J""*  **'*•'»'' 
•o».  Hunt.  Editor,  Vol.  II  (1901°%^'3^28  ^"*«»V»  o/  ,/amM  jr«U. 


590      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

of  regulating  trade  and  sundry  other  matters  iu  which  uniformity  it 
proper,  to  arm  the  federal  head  with  a  negative  in  all  cases  whatso- 
ever on  the  local  Legislatures.  Without  this  defensive  power  experi- 
ence and  reflection  have  satisfied  me  that  however  ample  the  federal 
powers  may  be  made,  or  however  clearly  their  boiindaries  may  be 
delineated,  on  paper,  they  will  be  easily  and  continually  baffled  by 
the  Legislative  Sovereignties  of  the  States.  The  eflfects  of  this  pro- 
vision would  be  not  only  to  guard  the  national  rights  and  interests 
against  invasion,  but  also  to  restrain  the  States  from  thwarting  and 
molesting  each  other,  and  even  from  oppressing  the  minority  within 
themselves  by  paper  money  and  other  unrighteous  measures  which 
favor  the  interest  of  the  majority.  In  order  to  render  the  exercise 
of  such  a  negative  prerogative  convenient,  an  emanation  of  it  must 
be  vested  in  some  set  of  men  within  the  sevjral  States,  so  far  as  to 
enable  them  to  give  a  temporary  sanction  to  laws  of  immediate  neces- 
sity. 3*!»  To  change  the  principle  of  Representation  in  the  federal 
system.  Whilst  the  execution  of  the  act?  of  Cong?  depends  on  the 
several  Legislatures,  the  equality  of  votes  does  not  destroy  the  in- 
equality of  importance  and  influence  in  the  States.  But  in  case  of 
jnch  au  augmentation  of  the  federal  power  as  will  render  it  efficient 
without  the  intervention  of  the  Legislatures,  a  vote  in  the  general 
Councils  from  Delaware  would  be  of  equal  value  with  one  from 
Mass*?  or  Virginia.  This  change,  therefore,  is  just  I  think,  also,  it 
will  be  practicable.  A  majority  ■  r  the  States  conceive  that  they  will  be 
gainers  by  it.  It  is  recommended  to  the  Eastern  States  by  the  actual 
superiority  of  their  populousness,  and  to  the  Southern  by  their  ex- 
pected superiority.  And  if  a  majority  of  the  larger  States  concur,  the 
fewer  and  smaller  States  must  finally  bend  to  them.  This  point  bieing 
gained,  many  of  the  objections  now  urged  in  the  leading  States  ag^ 
renunciations  of  power  will  vanish.  4*^^  To  organize  the  federal 
powers  in  sueh  a  manner  as  not  to  blend  together  those  which  ought 
to  he  exercised  by  separate  departments.  The  limited  powers  now 
vested  in  Cong?  are  frequently  mismanaged  from  the  want  of  such 
a  distribution  of  them.  What  would  be  the  case,  under  an  enlarge- 
ment not  only  of  the  powers,  but  the  number,  of  the  federal  Rep- 
resentatives t — These  are  some  of  the  leading  ideas  which  have  oc- 
curred to  me,  but  which  may  appetr  to  others  as  improper  as  they 
appear  to  me  necessary.  .   .   . 

No.  2.  EzTBACT  OP  Letter  prom  Jame?  Madison  to 
Edmund  Randolph' 

April  ",  1787. 
....  I  am  glad  to  find  that  you  are  turning  your  thoughts 
towards  the  business  of  May  next.  My  despair  of  your  finding  the 
necessary  leisure  as  signified  in  one  of  your  letters,  with  the  proba- 
bility that  some  leading  propositions  at  least  would  be  expected  from 
Virg^  had  engaged  me  in  a  closer  attention  to  the  subject  than  I 

'  The  text  of  the  above  letter  is  printed  from  the  original  among  the  IklaJison 
manuBcripta  in  the  Library  of  Congress.  See  also,  The  Writing$  of  Jaime*  Modi- 
ton.  Hunt,  Editor,  Vol  II  (1901),  pp.  336-340. 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES  591 

^^p^S^'::;£:z^\.^^^^^^     i^-  which  have 

of  tie^'oM  c"oSeJS.?o?  ^^  LTS"  £2^*"^."  "''^'^^  "  P-'^e 
work  the  valuable  mic£  into  thp  1»  q  ^J^*""  •*  °"y.°'>*  ^  b«t  to 
the  latter  on  the  fomer  Tm  JL  J-I^t  '°^/°^**  °'  engrafting 
fnuning  a  system!  rmaterirsJ^r^r&trae  t l^^^f  '" 

Sp^y  ?hTrSS-of1h°e?otr'^  ^iSs'^^rS/V^i?? 
not  sure  tiat  ft  ^11  L         f-  ^PP^ent'on  on  the  mam  objf-t.    I  am 

tion  will  be  binS  PaSSr  S?Ji  ^^^-  *"  *?**.*  P"*^!  «dop- 
as  conditions  of  each  Ser  anH  i^niT^  V"'' ^''l '^**"°*  "^^^^^ 
others  might  miirthem  m  SnTn^*^  .""^^  ^^''^  *^«™  «  «"ch, 
quence  would  ^  tihat  th?  Zm    t^^'^^^i  Propositions.    The  conse^ 

I  have  iTLwB^rJ^J^^'Sl^Z''^^^^  '""l'.^  ««  '«"•  °°t«^ 
ideas  of  a  refonTsfrikeTo  dtpjy  atTe  oS  .^°  ^^^^''^^ 

to  such  a  nystematie  change  Xt  ti.!^  .  Confederation  and  lead 

I  hold  H  fori  fi^dSteliotTt?:'^*^^  "^^^  °'  *^«  expedient, 
of  the  States  is  uSly^S^onSle^ftrtf '^^^^'^  independence 
wvereignty.  I  thii  ^ ZTmf  LT?hi  . '^'* ''f^ • '«^^«^*« 
States  into  one  simple  reDubli^^LV?!  \?  consolidation  of  the 
be  inexpedient  ^t  it^ffHiH  ^i.  Ifs  unattamable  than  it  would 
be  takenEeh  wUl  at  once  s^nnn^^.^'J'*''"  ""^  °^*^<"«  K^^^^d  ^an 
authority,  and  leave  in  foMetK.fi^"**^"'?'"?""'^  °^  ">«  "^^^^onal 
be  suboi^inately  SfS  *  ^""^  authorities  so  far  as  they  can 

executing  the  Acta  ?f  ConJ^^if^r^^^'^.^rKr  .^'  rejecting' or 
sovereignty  of  CongmsuEa^^miv^i*"*  ?/  ^^'^  °<»^°*1 
out  the  intervention^e  Static  ^7T^j}\fu'"'''^^  °P«"t«  with- 
A  vote  from  Delaware  woiSdhavrtla  °°1?  ^  materially  altered, 
or  Virg?  ^^^'^  '^*^®  *^®  8*™e  effect  as  one  from  Mass- 

Let  the  national  Government  htk  an„^A  _^ii. 
authority  in  all  caseTwhe^r^lfntf^!^  ""*  *  P'^'ti^e  &  compleat 
trade  &c.  &c._Le?U  Tlsow  ™in  t^  ^TJ^  ^^.''^'^^-  ^  i^ 
Let  it  have  a  negaSve  £^?  oZF^l?  '^^'''^  "  "°w  possesses. 
Acts  of  the  States  M«^Lk  of  d  H-  ♦''*'"*T.°°  ^^^  Legislative 
to  be  essential  and  the  lelst  nSsiL  r„^'°''  had  This  I  conceive 
ereignties.  Without  such  a  dSnsfve  n^l^J°'°*  °^  ^^'  ^tate  Sov- 
that  can  be  given  on  DaoCT  w^  hi     ^  ".■  ^""^"^  P^^'^i^e  Power 

internal  stabilV?otLffie8TheLr^''°^-    '*  ^"  ^  e^^^ 
peace  at  which  the  fXa^^assIt^H  11  ^^\°°  "°'°^°*  "'^''e  the 

money  fc  &c.  ^*°*  '^'^  ^*^«  ^°  given  to  paper 

depmU'' H^tSeTudgS'fnThrf^^^^  'i'^  ^°  «««  J'^dieiaiy 

bound  by  their  oatK  Sem^TnTto  tlffif  •  °°  *^.^  ^^^^^^  *  «« 
the  law  and  the  interests^^tre^n^i^^ij  'l^'l^U^^Z^S^ot 


m 


592     DEBATES  IX  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

national  tribunaU  in  lUJ  caSTwSh  nni"  ''^^  ■'"^^  lie  to  some 
of  other  State..  The^Sihv  ?Jj^- 1™  'oreigneri^  or  inhabitant, 
to  the  national  GoverSt  ^  Jumdiction  may  be  fully  wbmitted 

o^i^r'^riiSS.t^StSe^''^*  POwe«  o„,,t  to  be  well 
branche.;oneoft^toSchSS^^J*  "^  ^  ^^"'l^^  '"»«  two 
laturee  or  the  people  at  large  ?reothp7f«  -^f*?  ''^  **»«  I*«i»- 
number,  holding  their  apSment.  for  a^™""'"*  °'  »  "««  wlect 

tt.«d  to  form  mroi^'*o5in^ye^5Sr^*h'  '"'"*'  ""^"'y  -«- 
it  ought  to  be  conrtituted  or  of  Se  authori?L*^'*?"??''  '°  «''"''h 
[to  be]  cloathed.  "*®  authontiea  with  which  it  ought 

lute'y^lSa'bE'  S  ^rlE?  TL*^*'  ''  ^  «*~-^t.  ab«,- 

f^^tS^^'  *°  ^  °°  'arth^Si  lets  *tK'?-  .^"'^•'jiving 
from  this  rource  are  to  be  laid  aside     T  fli/;.,      *  objections  drawn 
they  may  be  lees  formidable  oS^trikl  th«n  •    "^  *'^  •'°'^«^^"  that 
change  in  the  principle  of  repreSJntTt^n  i?n  ^°  ^ntemplation.     The 
of  the  States,  and  those  too  oT^I/  •  «"""  ^  relished  by  a  majority 
will  be  reconciled  toTbrthe  Sj"^"'"'"-  •  "^^^  Northern  StotS 
nesa:  the  Southern  hythVeLTcl^f,^^^^°^^y.  °^  their  populoS 
principle  established,  thr«purancf  of  ^^f'*^  '5  ^^^  P«*°t     Thi 
power  will  in  a  great  degrS  suCe  «^H  il  '""^  States  to  part  with 
mately  yield  to  the  preSKt  ^jj  ^U  Sj^f''^^^'^  ^^t  ulti- 
fmT'l^y  degrees  be  seen  brairth'at  mJe^h?  n*^^  T°  "^^  "'^y 
efficiently  on  Republican  princinlw  Jn^i!?   ^  V"'""  ^«  organised 
jectionable  form  may  be  obtrSSd '  oTfn  Vjlf  °^/,°'"^h  "ore  ob- 
the^partUion  of  the  ^^P-litVvL'rhttrcoSrrSiU^Si 

I  have  been  honoured  with  your  lPftPr^fT^^S?^/P"^  ^^  1787. 
^th  much  pleasure  that  youf  ^'ws  „ J  ^ 
be  pursued  by  the  Conyentio"  Sv^l  sanoMon  /*'7?  "^^'^  «"»ht  to 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES  593 

*■?"*'****'«  ■«"«  t™e  that  they  produce  an  Mtensible  palliaticm 
Of  It.  RadicaJ  attempts,  although  unauccewful,  wiU  at  least  justify 
the  authors  of  them. 

Having  been  lately  led  to  -evolve  the  subject  which  is  to  undergo 
the  discussion  of  the  Conveni  on,  and  formed  in  my  mind  some  out- 
lines of  a  new  syst  ji,  I  take  the  liberty  of  submitting  them  without 
apology,  to  your  eye. 

Conceiving  that  an  individual  independence  of  the  States  is  utterly 
irreconcileable  with  their  aggregate  sovereignty;  and  that  a  consoli- 
dation of  the  whole  into  one  simple  republic  would  be  as  inexpedient 
as  It  IS  unattainable,  I  have  sought  for  some  middle  ground,  which 
may  at  once  support  a  due  supremacy  of  the  national  authority,  and 
not  exclude  the  local  authorities  wherever  they  can  be  subordinately 

I  would  propose  as  the  ground-work  that  a  change  be  made  in  the 
principle  of  representation.     According  to  the  present  form  of  the 
Union  in  which  the  intervention  of  the  States  is  in  all  great  cases 
necessary  to  effectuate  the  measures  of  Congress,  an  equality  of  suf- 
frage, doa.  not  destroy  the  inequality  of  importance,  in  the  several 
members.     No  one  wiU  deny  that  Virginia  and  Mass"!  have  more 
weight  and  influence  both  within  &  without  Congress  than  Delaware 
or  Kho.  island.    Under  a  system  which  would  operate  in  many  essen- 
tial points  without  the  intervention  of  the  State  Legislatures,  the 
case  would  be  materially  altered.    A  vote  in  the  national  Councils 
from  Delaware,  would  then  have  the  same  effect  and  value  as  one 
from  the  largest  State  m  the  Union.    I  am  ready  to  believe  that  such 
a  change  wiU  not  be  attended  with  much  difficulty.    A  maiority  of 
the  States,  and  those  of  greatest  influence,  will  regard  it  as  favorable 
to  them.    To  the  Northern  States  it  will  be  recommended  by  their 
present  populouaness ;  to  the  Southern  by  their  expected  advantage 
in  this  respect.    The  lesser  States  must  in  every  event  yield  to  the 
predominant  will.    Bi  t  the  consideration  which  particularly  unres  a 
change  in  the  repreeontation  is  that  it  will  obviate  the  principal  ob- 
jections of  the  largo:-  States  to  the  necessary  concessions  of  power. 

I  would  pror  .  e  next  that  in  addition  to  the  present  ■  deral 
powers,  the  national  Government  should  be  armed  with  positive  and 
compleat  authority  m  all  cases  which  require  uniformity  jrech  as  the 
regulation  of  trade,  including  the  right  of  taxing  both  exports  ft 
impOTts,  the  fixing  the  terms  and  forms  of  naturalization,  &c  &c 

Over  and  above  this  positive  power,  a  negative  in  all  cases  what- 
soever on  the  legislative  acts  of  the  States,  as  heretofore  exercised  by 
the  Kingly  prerogative,  appears  to  me  to  be  absolutely  necessary,  and 
w-*^  V»f,.l««"t  possible  encroachment  on  the  State  jurisdictions. 
Uithout  this  defensive  power,  every  positive  power  that  can  be  given 
on  paper  will  be  evaded  &  defeated.  The  States  will  continue  to 
invade  the  National  .lurisdiction,  to  violate  treaties  and  the  law  of 
nations  &  to  harass  each  other  with  rival  and  spiteful  measures  die 
tated  by  mistaken  views  of  interest.  Another  happy  effect  of  this 
prerogative  would  be  its  controul  on  the  intemal  vici>«itudes  of  State 
policy,  and  the  aggressions  of  interested  majoriUeg  on  the  rights  of 


si 


894     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


minoritiet  and  of  individoalf.  The  great  deaideratum  which  haa  not 
^et  been  found  for  Republican  Govemmenta  aeema  to  be  some  dia- 
intereated  &  dispassionate  umpire  in  dispute  between  different  paa- 
aiona  &  intereata  in  the  State.  The  majority  who  alone  have  the 
right  of  decision,  have  frequently  an  interest  real  or  supposed  in 
abusing  it.  In  Monarchies  the  sovereign  ia  more  neutral  to  the 
interests  and  views  of  different  parties;  but,  unfortunately  he  too 
often  forms  interesia  of  his  own  repugnant  to  those  of  the  whole. 
Might  not  the  national  prerogative  here  auggeated  be  found  aufficiently 
diainterested  for  the  decision  of  local  queationa  of  policy,  whilst  it 
would  itself  be  aufficiently  restrained  from  the  pursuit  of  interest* 
adverse  to  those  of  the  whole  Society  t  There  has  not  been  any  mo- 
ment since  the  peace  at  which  the  repreaentatives  of  the  Union  would 
have  given  an  assent  to  paper  money  or  any  other  meaaure  of  a 
kindred  nature. 

The  national  supremacy  ought  also  to  be  extended  as  I  conceive 
to  the  Judiciary  departments.  If  those  who  are  to  expound  &  apply 
the  laws,  are  connected  by  their  intereata  &  their  oaths  with  the 
particular  States  wholly,  and  not  with  the  Union,  the  participation 
of  the  Union  in  the  making  of  the  laws  may  be  possibly  rendered 
unavailing.  It  seems  at  least  necessary  that  the  oatha  of  the  Judgea 
should  include  a  fidelity  to  the  general  aa  well  as  local  constitution, 
and  that  an  appeal  should  lie  to  some  National  tribunals  in  all  cases 
to  which  foreigners  or  inhabitants  of  other  States  may  be  partiea. 
The  admiralty  jurisdiction  seems  to  fall  entirely  within  the  purview 
of  the  national  Government. 

The  national  supremacy  in  the  Executive  departmenta  h  liable  to 
some  difficulty,  unless  the  officers  administering  them  could  be  made 
appointable  by  the  supreme  Government.  The  Militia  ought  certainly 
to  be  placed  in  some  form  or  other  under  the  authority  which  ia 
entrusted  with  the  general  protection  and  defence. 

A  Government  composed  of  such  extensive  power  should  be  well 
organised  and  balanced.  The  legislative  department  might  be 
divided  into  two  branches ;  one  of  them  chosen  every  years  by 

the  people  at  large,  or  by  the  Legislatures;  the  other  to  consiat  of 
fewer  members,  to  hold  their  places  for  a  longer  term,  and  to  go 
out  in  such  a  rotation  as  always  to  leave  in  office  a  large  majority 
of  old  members.  Perhaps  the  negative  on  the  laws  might  be  most 
conveniently  exercised  by  this  branch.  As  a  further  check,  a  council 
of  revision  including  the  great  ministerial  officers  might  be  super- 
added. 

A  National  Executive  must  also  be  provided.  I  have  scarcely 
ventured  as  yet  to  form  my  own  opinion  either  of  the  manner  in 
which  it  ought  to  be  constituted  or  of  the  authorities  with  which  it 
ought  to  be  cloathed. 

An  article  should  be  inserted  expressly  guarantying  the  tran- 
quility of  the  States  against  internal  as  well  as  extemid  dangers. 

In  like  manner  the  right  of  coercion  should  be  expressly  declared. 
With  the  resources  of  Commerce  in  hand,  the  National  administration 
might  always  find  means  of  exerting  it  either  by  sea  or  land.    But 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


8M 


th.  difflculty  k  awkwardne-  of  operating  by  5>««  ojj  Jj*  ^JJj^^ 
will  of  a  State,  render  it  particularly  de«reable  that  the  nece«ty 
Stmiht  be  precluded.  PerhaD.  »>"  "^^^^  °°  *^«  'r'lJTS^ 
SeatoS  a  mutuality  of  depen<fcnce  between  the  General  and  paN 
JfcttSr  authoritie.,  a.  to  an-wer  thi.  purpoae  or  perhap.  wme  defined 
object*  of  taxation  might  be  aubmitted  along  with  commerce,  to  the 

'•°T?^gfvfl!'ili  Syrtem  ita  proper  yaUdity  and  energy,  a  ratiflca- 
tion  mSt  be  obuined  from  the  people,  and  not  merely  tromjie 
iSiinary  authority  of  the  Legilature.  Thu.  wiU  J^^^h*^^"  XSe 
tial  aa  inroada  on  the  exitttng  Con$Mut%ont  of  the  SUtea  wiU  be 
unavoidable.  .   .   • 


APPENDIX  III 

Lkteb  from  Mbbchantb,  Tradesmbn.  btc.  or  Pbovidenci.  Rhodi 
Island,  to  the  Chairman  of  the  General  Convention  » 

OUNTLEMEN  PROVIDENCE,  May  ll*^  1787. 

s£ce  the  Legislature  of  this  State  have  finally  decbned  sending 
Delegates  to  Meet  you  in  Convention  for  the  purpoee.  mentioned  in 
the  ReSve  of  Coin-'sa  of  the  21"  February  1787.  the  Merchante 
TradlTen  and  othera  of  thi.  place,  deeply  affected  with  the  evils  of 
the  present  unhappy  times,  have  thought  proper  to  communicate  in 
Sritf^Sier  appStion  of  your  Meeting.  And  their  regrf  that  it 
wiU  Ml  short  of  a  Compleat  Representation  of  the  Federal  Union.- 

The  failure  of  this  State  was  owing  to  the  Nonconcurrence  of  the 
Upper  House  of  Assembly  witn  a  Vote  passed  m  the  Lo«'"  .H°y?f ; 
for  appointing  Delegates  to  attend  the  said  Convention  at  thier 
SssioTCldeS  at  Niwport  on  the  first  Wednesday  of  the  present 

^*'lU8~the  general  Opinion  here  and  we  believe  of  the  well  informed 
throughout  this  State,  that  full  power  for  the  Regulation  of  the 
Commerce  of  the  United  States,  both  Fo.-eign  &  Domestick  ought  to 
be  vested  in  the  National  Council. 

And  that  Eflfectual  Arrangements  should  also  be  made  for  giving 
Operation  to  the  present  powers  of  Congress  in  thier  Requisitions 
upon  the  States  for  National  purposes.—  . 

As  the  Object  of  this  Letter  is  chiefly  to  prevent  any  unpresaiona 
unfavorable  to  the  Commercial  Interest  of  this  State,  from  taking 
place  in  our  Sister  States  from  the  Circumstance  of  our  being  unrep- 
iwnted  in  the  present  National  Convention,  we  shall  not  PW«ame  to 
enter  into  any  detail  of  the  objects  we  hope  your  deliberations  will 
embrace  and  provide  for  being  convinced  they  will  be  such  as  have 
a  tendency  to  strengthen  the  Union,  promote  Commerce,  increase  the 
power  &  Establish  the  Credit  of  the  United  Stotes. 

>  Th.  t«t  of  the  above  letter  1»  printed  from  the  origiwil  among  the  manu- 
^^riptJ^  tte  ^n.t  tSuon  in  th. Wpartnent  otJiMU.  See  aUo  Socum^tary 
BUtc^lftK*  Con*titutUm.  Vol.  I  (1894).  pp.  276-276. 


596      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

The  pwult  of  your  deliberation!  tending  to  thtie  detireable  par- 
powt  we  itill  hope  may  Anally  be  Approvwl  and  Adopted  by  thia 
Sute.  for  which  wc  pledge  our  Influence  and  bert  exertiona.— 
In  behalf  of  the  Merchanta,  Tradesmen  Ac 
We  have  the  Honour  to  be  with  perfect  Conaideration  4  Reapect 
Tour  moat  Obedient  ft 

Moat  Humble  Servant '■ 
John  Brown  Jabez  Bowin 

Tuo;  Llotd  Halset  Nicho"  Brown 
Joe.  NiaiinNOALB  John  Jenckes 
Levi  Hall  WEi.coifE  Arnold 

Philip  Allen  William  Ritssell 

Pal'l  Allen  Jeremiah  Olmy. 

„,    „    ^,  William  Barton       . 

The  Hon'^  the  Chairman  of  the  General  Convention 

PHn.ADEI.PHU 


APPENDIX  IV 

THE  PINCKNEY  PLAN  PRESENTED  TO  THE  CONVENTION 
AT  ITS  SESSION  OP  MAY  29,  1787 

No.  1.   Outline  op  the  Plan  * 

1.  A  Confederation  between  the  free  and  independent  Statea  of 
N.  H.  etc.  is  hertby  aolemnly  made  uniting  them  together  under  one 
general  Buperintending  Government  for  their  common  Benefit  and  for 
their  Defense  and  Security  against  all  Designs  and  Leagues  that  may 
be  injurious  to  their  Interests  and  against  all  forc[e]  [or  foesf]  and 
Attacks  offered  to  or  made  upon  them  or  any  of  them. 

2.  The  Stile. 


'  ReprinUd  from  Profeaior  McLaughlin'*  Bketeh  of  Pincknei/'i  Plan  tor  • 
Cotutttutton,  1787,  The  American  Hiitorical  Reviete,  IX,  1904,  736   741-747 

Professor  J.  Franklin  Jameion  had  previouily  identified  among  the  manu- 
script papers  of  James  Wilwn,  deposited  In  the  PennsyWania  Historical  Society, 
ceruin  extract*  in  Wilson's  hand  as  taken  from  Pinckney's  original  draft. 
See  J.  Franklin  Jameson,  S«ud«-.  in  tke  History  of  the  Federal  Convention  of 
iJr,  '  •^"""■'  Report  of  the  American  Historical  Association,  1902,  I,  pp  128, 
132;  and  for  an  analysis  of  Pinckney's  views,  pp.  Ill,  128,  other  than  those 
derived  from  the  extracts. 

Professor  Jameson  thus  states  hi*  view*  in  the  light  of  hi*  studies  and  his 
remarkable  discovery: 

"  Concluding  that  to  a  coniiiderable  extent,  and  with  more  or  less  confldence. 
'"*  « "  reconstruct  the  actual  plan  which  Pinckney  laid  before  the  Convention 
on  May  29,  we  may  now  turn,  finally,  to  the  question.  If  the  document  which 
Pinckney  sent  to  John  Quincy  Adams  was  not  his  original  draft,  what  wa*  it? 

draft  to  the  final  Constitution  has  consUntly  been  noticed.  Its  resemblance  to 
the  report  of  the  Committee  of  DeUil  i*  still  closer.  .  .  .  Practically  in  other 
word*  the  so-called  Pinckney  plan  consists  of  the  report  of  the  Committee  of 
uetail,  as  brought  m  on  August  6.  minus  some  of  its  lender  featuris,  and  plus 
some  of  those  of  his  real  plan  It  is  not  possible  to  say  that  Pinckney  antwerml 
Adam*    request  by  *itting  down  and  copying  the  printed  report  of  the  Com- 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


3.  Mutual  intercouni»— Commanity  of  PrivilegM— Surrender  of 
Criminal!— Faith  to  Proceedings  etc. 

4.  Two  Branehea  of  the  Leirialatar*— Senate— Hoiue  of  Delegataa 
— toKcther  the  U.  8.  in  ConirreMi  aaembled. 

H.  D.  to  conaiit  of  one  Member  for  every  thouaand  Inhabitanta 
H  of  Blacks  included. 

Senate  to  be  elected  from  four  District*— to  serve  by  RoUtion  of 
four  Years— to  be  elected  by  the  H.  D.  either  from  among  themselves 
or  the  People  at  large. 

6.  The  Senate  and  H.  D.  shall  by  joint  Ballot  annually  [sep- 
tennially)  chua«'  the  Presid?  V.  8.  from  among  themselves  or  the  Peo- 

Ele  at  large.—In  the  Prcsd!  the  executive  authority  of  the  U.  S.  shall 
e  vested— His  Powers  and  Duties— He  shall  have  a  Right  to  advise 
with  the  Heads  of  the  diflfcrent  Departments  as  his  Council. 

6.  Council  of  Revision,  consisting  of  the  Preeid*.  S.[eeretary] 
for  for.[eign]  Affairs,  8.  of  War.  Heada  of  the  DepartmenU  of  Treat- 
ury  ard  Admiralty  or  any  two  of  them  tog*  w'  the  Presid*. 

7.  The  members  of  B.  and  H.  D.  shall  each  have  one  Vote,  and 
shall  be  paid  out  of  the  common  Treasury. 

8.  The  Time  of  the  Elei-tion  of  the  Members  of  the  H.  D.  and  of 
the  Meeting  of  U.  8.  in  C.  assembled. 

9.  No  State  to  make  Treaties— lay  interfering  Duties— keep  a 
naval  or  land  Force  Militia  excepted  to  be  disciplined  etc.  according 
to  the  Regulations  of  the  U.  8. 

10.  Each  State  retains  ito  Rights  not  expressly  delegated— but  no 
Bill  of  the  Legislature  of  any  State  shall  become  a  law  till  it  shall 
have  been  laid  before  8.  and  H.  D.  in  C.  assembled  and  received  their 
Approbation. 

11.  The  exclusive  Power  of  S.  and  H.  D.  in  C.  Assembled. 

12.  The  8.  and  H.  D.  in  C.  ass.  shall  have  exclusive  Power  of 
regulating  trade  and  levying  Imposta— Each  State  may  lay  Embar- 
goes  in  Times  of  Scarcity. 

Bittee  of  D*UU,  psrsphrsting  to  s  laall  extent  here  and  tbwe,  mai  inUr- 
wcaTisff  >•  he  went  along  »ome  of  the  best-remembered  featuret  of  bit  own 
plan.  But  It  is  poMible  to  declare  that  if  he  had  done  thla  the  reeult  would 
have  been  preclaelT  like  that  which  in  fact  he  tent  on  to  Waihtnifton.  .  .  . 
It  ii  perhaps  luffleient  to  remark,  In  conrluiion,  that  as  a  maker  of  the  Con- 
■titutlon  Charlee  Plnckney  evidently  deeervce  to  iUnd  higher  than  he  ha*  itood 
of  late  yeare,  and  that  he  would  have  a  better  chance  of  doing  ao  if  in  hit  old 
age  he  had  not  claimed  lo  much." 

ProfcMor  A.  C.  McLaughlin  found  among  the  lame  papen  one  likewlte  In 
Wllton'i  hand  which  he  identified  at  Wileon't  lummary  of  the  original  Plnckney 
Plan  made  on  ite  reading  in  the  Seteion  of  May  29,  1787,  or  made  by  him  ai 
a  member  of  the  Committee  of  Detail  when  the  original  plan  waa  before  that 
committee.  j 

ProfcMor  McLaughlin'!  conclueione  are,  "By  help  of  the  eondeneation  of 
the  plan  which  Profeeaor  Jameaon  diacovered  and  from  the  light  thrown  on 
the  problem  by  the  document  printed  below,  we  can  eay  that  PincknCT  tug- 
geeted  tome  thlrtv-one  or  thirty-two  proTleion*  whiA  were  finally  embodied  in 
the  Constitution; 'of  these,  about  twelve  were  originally  in  the  Articles  of  Con- 

For  an  elaborate  defense  of  Piaekney  and  the  enclosure  in  his  letter  of  1818, 
see  Tht  Myitery  of  the  Pinekney  Draught  ( 1908),  by  Charles  C.  Nott,  formerly 
Chief  Justice  of  the  United  States  Court  of  Claims. 


598      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

13.    of  eatabliahing  Post-Offices. 

14.  S.  and  H.  D.  in  C.  an.  shall  be  the  lant  Besort  on  Appeal  in 
Diaputet  between  two  or  more  Statea;  which  Authority  ahaU  be  ex- 
ercised in  the  following  Manner  etc. 

15.  8.  and  H.  D.  in  C.  aas.  shall  inatitate  ofBcea  and  appoint 
officers  for  the  Departmenta  of  for.  Affairs,  War,  Treasury  and 

Admiralty.  .   „  ■ 

They  shall  have  the  exclusive  Power  of  declaring  what  shall  be 
Treason  and  Misp.  of  Treason  ag!  U.  S.— and  of  instituting  a  federal 
judicial  Court,  to  which  an  Appeal  shall  be  allowed  from  the  judicial 
Courts  of  the  several  States  in  all  Causes  wherein  Questions  shall 
arise  on  the  Construction  of  Treaties  made  by  U.  S.— or  on  the  Laws 
of  Nations— or  on  the  Begnlationa  of  U.  S.  concerning  Trade  and 
Revenue— or  wherein  U.  S.  shall  be  a  Party— The  Court  shall  consist 
of  Judges  to  be  appointed  during  good  Behaviour— S.  and  H.  D.  in 
C.  ass.  shall  have  the  exclusive  Right  of  instituting  in  each  State  a 
Court  of  Admiralty,  and  appointing  the  Judges  etc  of  the  same  for 
all  maritime  Causes  which  may  arise  therein  respectively. 

16.  S.  and  H.  D.  in  C.  Aas  shall  have  the  exclusive  Right  of 
coining  Money— regulating  its  Alloy  and  Value— fixing  the  Standard 
of  Weights  and  Measures  throughout  U.  8. 

17.  Points  in  which  the  Assent  of  more  than  a  bare  Majority 

shall  be  necessary.  „  ^   ,   .        ^    ^      .        j, 

18.  Impeachments  shall  be  by  the  H.  D.  before  the  Senate  and 
the  Judges  of  the  federeal  judicial  Court  .    .      ^     , 

19.  S.  and  H.  D.  in  C.  aas.  shall  regulate  the  Militia  thro' 

the  U.  S.  „.        V     «  .     *  .u 

20.  Means  of  enforcing  and  compelling  the  Payment  or  the 

Quota  of  each  State. 

21.  Manner  and  Conditions  of  admitting  new  States. 

22.  Power  of  dividing  annexing  and  consolidating  States,  on 
the  Consent  and  Petition  of  such  States. 

23.  The  assent  of  the  Legislature  of  States  shall  be  suffi- 
cient to  invest  future  additional  Powers  in  U.  S.  in  C.  aas.  and  shall 
bind  the  whole  Confederacy.                   .   „  ^    .     .  ,  ,.,      v 

24.  The  Articles  of  ConfederatMm  shall  be  mviolably  observed, 
and  the  Union  shall  be  perpetual :  unless  altered  as  before  directed. 

25.  The  said  States  of  N.  H.  etc  guarrantee  mutually  each  other 
and  their  Rights  agidnst  all  other  Powers  and  against  all  Rebel- 
lion etc. 


No.  2.  LKrTEBS  FBOM  Chabues  Pincknby  to  John  Quinct  Adams. 
Secretabt  op  State,  Rii.atino  to  thb  Alleqed  Pincknet  Plan 

WiNOAW  N«A«  Gbobobtown  December  12  1818 

Sir 

I  have  just  had  the  honour  to  receive  your  favour — Being  at 
present  absent  from  Charleston  on  a  visit  to  my  planting  interest  in 
this  neighbourhood  I  shall  in  consequence  of  your  letter  shorten  my 
stay  here  considerably  &  return  to  Town  for  the  purpose  of  complying 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


with  your  request  aa  soon  as  possible — Fr<Hn  an  inspection  of  my  old 
papers  not  long  ago  I  know  it  was  then  easily  in  my  power  to  have 
complied  with  your  request — I  still  hope  it  is  &  as  soon  as  I  return  to 
my  residence  in  Charleston  will  again,  or  as  quickly  as  I  can  write  you 
on  it  to  prevent  delay. 

The  Draught  of  the  Constitution  proposed  by  me  was  divided 
into  a  number  of  articles  &  was  in  complete  detail — ^the  resolutions 
offered  by  M'  Randolph  were  merely  general  ones  &  as  far  aa  I  recol- 
lect they  were  both  referred  to  the  same  Committee. 

With  great  respect  &  esteem  ice.'- 
Sir" 

On  my  return  to  this  City  as  I  promised  I  examined  carefully  all 
the  numerous  notes  &  papers  which  I  had  retained  relating  to  the 
federal  Convention — among  them  I  found  several  rough  draughts  of 
the  Constitution  I  proposed  to  the  Convention — although  they  differed 
in  some  measure  from  each  other  in  the  wording  &  arrangement  of 
the  articles — ^yet  they  were  all  substantially  the  same — ^they  all  pro- 
ceeded upon  the  idea  of  throwing  out  of  view  the  attempt  to  amend 
the  existing  Confederation  (then  s  very  favorite  idea  of  a  number)  & 
proceeding  de  novo — of  a  Division  of  the  Powers  of  Government  into 
legislative  executive  &  judicial  &  of  making  the  Qovemment  to  operate 
directly  upon  the  People  &  not  upon  the  States —  My  Plan  was  sub- 
stantially adopted  in  the  sequel  except  as  to  the  Senate  &  giving  more 
power  to  the  Executive  than  I  intended — ^the  force  of  vote  which  the 
small  &  middling  states  had  in  the  Convention  prevented  our  obtain- 
ing a  proportional  representation  in  more  than  one  branch  &  the 
great  powers  given  to  the  President  were  never  intended  to  have  been 
given  to  him  while  the  Convention  continued  in  that  patient  &  coolly 
deliberative  situation  in  which  they  had  been  for  nearly  the  whole  of 
the  preceding  five  months  of  their  session  nor  was  it  until  within  the 
last  week  or  ten  days  that  almost  the  whole  of  the  Executive  Depart- 
ment was  altered — I  can  assure  you  as  a  fact  that  for  more  than  Four 
months  &  a  half  out  of  five  the  power  of  exclusively  making  treaties, 
appointing  toe  the  Ministers  &  judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  was  given 
to  the  Senate  after  numerous  debates  &  consideration  of  the  subject 
both  in  Committee  of  the  whole  ft  in  the  house — ^this  I  not  only  aver 
but  can  prove  by  printed  Documents  in  my  possession  to  have  been 
the  case-— ft  should  I  ever  have  the  pleasure  to  see  you  ft  converse 
on  the  subject  will  state  to  you  some  things  relative  to  this  business 
that  may  be  new  ft  periiaps  surprising  to  you — ^the  veil  of  secrecy 
from  the  Proceedings  of  the  Convention  being  removed  by  Congress  ft 
but  very  few  of  the  members  alive  would  make  disclosures  now  of  the 
wcrets  there  acted  lees  improper  than  before — ^With  the  aid  of  the 
journal  ft  the  numerous  notes  ft  memorandums  I  have  preserved 
should  now  be  in  my  i>ower  to  give  a  View  of  the  almost  insuperable 

*  The  text  it  reprinted  from  The  Writimgt  of  iamf  Mtiditon,  Hon*  Editor, 
Vol.  m  (ISOS),  p.  22. 

*  Tlie  text  it  printed  from  the  oriftnal  among  the  mannwripta  of  tlie  C«i- 
■titntiott  in  tha  Department  of  State.  Sea  alao  Doem»mtani  Bittorif  of  tht 
ContHtutiok,  Vol.  I  (1894),  pp.  309-3U. 


600      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

difBcultieB  the  Convention  had  to  encounter  &  of  the  conflicting  opin- 
ions of  the  members  &  I  believe  should  have  attempted  it  had  I  not 
always  understood  M'  Madison  intended  it^he  alone  I  believe  pos- 
sessed &  retained  more  numerous  &  particular  notes  of  their  pro- 
ceedings than  myself.  I  will  thank  you  sir  to  do  me  the  honour  to 
send  me  or  to  get  the  President  to  direct  a  copy  of  the  Journal  of  the 
Convention  to  be  sent  me  as  also  of  the  Secret  Journals  of  Congress 
should  it  be  considered  not  improper  in  me  to  make  the  request. 

I  have  already  informed  you  I  have  several  rough  draughts  of  the 
Constitution  I  prop<»ed  &  that  they  are  aU  substantially  the  same 
differing  only  in  words  &  the  arrangement  of  the  Articles— at  the  dis- 
tance of  nearly  thirty  two  years  it  is  impossible  for  me  now  to  say 
which  of  the  4  or  5  draughts  I  have  was  the  one  but  enclosed  1  send 
you  the  one  I  believe  was  it^l  repeat  however  that  they  are  sub- 
stantiaUy  the  same  differing  only  in  form  &  unessentiais— It  may  be 
necessary  to  remark  that  very  soon  after  the  Convention  met  I  changed 
b  avowed  candidly  the  change  of  my  opinion  on  giving  the  power  to 
Congress  to  revise  the  State  Laws  in  certain  cases  &  m  giving  the  ex- 
clusive Power  to  the  Senate  to  declare  War  thinking  it  safer  to  refuse 
the  first  altogether  &  to  vest  the  latter  in  Congress— I  will  thank  you 
to  acknowledge  by  a  line  the  receipt  of  the  Draught  &  this. 
With  very  great  respect  &  esteem 

I  havo  the  honour  to  be  your  most 
Obedient  servant 

Charles  Pimcknet. 
December  30  1818 

In  Charleston. 

No.  3.   Tirr  op  the  Alleotd  Plan  Submitted  by  Pincknet  to 
John  Quinct  Adams* 

We  the  People  of  the  States  of  New  Hampshire  Massachusetts 
Rhode  Island  &  Providence  PlanUtions— Connecticut  New  York  New 
Jersey  Pennsylvania  Delaware  Maryland  Virginia  North  Carolina 
South  Carolina  &  Georgia  do  ordain,  declare  &  establish  the  following 
Constitution  for  the  government  of  ourselves  &  Posterity. 

Article  1: 

The  Stile  of  this  Government  shall  be  The  United  States  of 
America  &  the  Government^shall  consist  of  supreme  legislative  Execu- 
tive &  judicial  Powers.      * 

>  Printed  from  the  oriKinal  amonft  the  manuscripts  of  the  Conititution  in 
the  Department  of  State.     See  alio  Documentor  Btttory  of  the  Conatttutum, 

^"'"The^plifn'i?  written  upon  the  eame  paper  as  the  letter  transmitting  it  and 
with  the  same  ink  and  the  paper  in  each  case  bears  the  watermark  oj  "»'• 
Therefore  the  draft  transmitted  to  Secretary  Adams  cannot  have  been  written  on 
this  paper  before  1707— some  ten  years  after  the  Convention  The  »f"*' »n»tf« 
draft  apr  ar  to  have  been  written  in  1818  the  year  of  Adams'  request  to  Pinckney 
to  furnish  a  copy  of  the  Pinckney  Plan. 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


fa 


The  Legislative  Power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Ctmgreas  to  consist  of 
two  separate  Houses— one  to  be  called  the  House  of  Delegates  &  the 
otiier  the  Senate  who  shall  meet  on  the  Day  of 

in  every  year. 


The  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  be  chosen  every 
year  by  the  people  of  the  several  States  &  the  qualification 
of  the  electors  shall  be  the  same  as  those  of  the  Electors  in  the  several 
States  for  their  legislatures— each  member  shall  have  been  a  citizen 
of  the  United  States  for  years— shall  be  of 

years  of  age  &  a  resident  in  the  State  he  is  chosen  for  Until 

a  census  of  the  people  shall  be  taken  in  the  manner  herdn  after  men- 
tioned the  House  of  Delegates  shall  consist  of 
to  be  chosen  from  the  different  States  in  the  following  proportions — 
for  New   Hampshire,  ;  for  Massachusetts  for 

Bhode  Island,  for  Connecticut,  for  New  York 

for  New  Jersey,  for  Penn^lvania,  for 

Delaware,  for  Maryll  for  Virginia,  for 

North  Carolina,  for  South  Carolina,  for  Georgia, 

&  the  Legislature  shall  hereafter  regulate  the  number  of 
delegates  by  the  number  of  inhabitiants  according  to  the  Provisions 
herein  after  made,  at  the  rate  of  <me  for  every  thousand. — 

All  money  bills  of  every  kind  shall  originate  in  the  house  of  Delegates 
&  shall  not  be  altered  by  the  Senate.  The  House  of  Delegates  shall 
exclusively  possess  the  power  of  impeachment  &  shall  choose  it's 
ofBcers  &  vacancies  therein  shall  be  supplied  by  the  executive  authority 
of  the  State  in  the  representation  from  which  they  shall  happen. 


The  Senate  shall  be  elected  &  chosen  by  the  House  of  Delegates 
which  house  immediately  t^er  their  meeting  shall  choose  by  ballot 
Senators  from  among  the  Citizens  &  residents  of  New  Hamp- 
shire from  among  those  of  Massachusetts  from 
among  those  of  Bhode  Island  frcnn  among  those  of  Con- 
necticut from  among  those  of  New  York  from 
among  those  of  New  Jersey  from  among  those  of  Penn- 
sylvania from  among  those  of  Delaware  from 
among  those  of  Maryland  from  among  those  of  Virginia 
from  among  those  of  North  Carolina  from  among 
those  of  South  Carolina  &                  from  among  those  of  Georgia— 

The  Senators  chosen  from  New  Hampshire  Massachusetts  Rhode 
Island  &  Connecticut  shall  form  one  class — those  from  New  York 
New  Jersey  Pennsylvania  &  Delaware  one  class — &  those  from  Mary- 
land Virginia  North  Carolina  South  Carolina  &  Georgia  one  class. 


602      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

The  House  of  Delegates  shall  number  these  Classes  one  two  &  three 
&  fix  the  times  of  iheir  service  by  Lot— the  first  class  shall  serve  for 
years — the  second  for  years  ft  the  third  for 

years — as  their  times  of  service  expire  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates shall  fill  them  up  by  elections  for  years  &  they  shall 
fill  all  vacancies  that  arise  from  death  or  resignation  for  the  time 
of  service  remaining  of  the  members  so  dying  or  resigniiig. 

Each  Senator  shall  be  years  of  age  at  least— shall  have 

been  a  Citizen  of  the  United  States  4  years  before  his  election  & 
shall  be  a  resident  of  the  State  he  is  chosen  from.  The  Senate  shall 
choose  it's  own  Officers. 


Each  State  shall  prescribe  the  time  &  manner  of  holding  elections 
by  the  People  for  the  house  of  Delegates  &  the  House  of  Delegates 
shall  be  the  judges  of  the  elections  returns  &  Qualifications  of  their 
members. 

In  each  house  a  Majority  shall  constitute  a  Quorum  to  do  buamess 
Freedom  of  Speech  &  Debate  in  the  legislature  shall  not  be  im- 
peached or  Questioned  in  any  place  out  of  it  &  the  Members  of  both 
Houses  shall  in  all  cases  except  for  Treason  Felony  or  Breach  of  the 
Peace  be  free  from  arrest  during  their  attendance  at  Congress  &  in 
going  to  &  returning  from  it— Both  Houses  shall  keep  journals  of 
their  Proceedings  &  publish  them  except  on  secret  occasions  &  the 
yeas  &  nays  may  be  entered  thereon  at  the  desire  of  one  of 
the  members  present.  Neither  house  without  the  consent  of  the  other 
shall  adjourn  for  more  than  days  nor  to  any  Place  but  where 
they  are  sitting 

The  members  of  each  house  shall  not  be  eligible  to  or  capable  of 
holding  any  ofBce  under  the  Union  during  the  time  for  which  they 
have  been  respectively  elected  nor  the  members  of  the  Senate  for  one 
year  after —  ... 

The  members  of  each  house  shall  be  paid  for  their  services  by  the 
States  which  they  represent— 

Every  bill  which  shall  have  passed  the  Legislature  shall  be  pre- 
sented to  the  President  of  the  United  States  for  his  revision— if  he 
approves  it  he  shall  sign  it — but  if  he  does  not  approve  it  he  shall 
return  it  with  his  objections  to  the  house  it  originated  in,  which 
house  if  two  thirds  oi  the  members  present,  notwithstanding  the 
President's  objections  agree  to  pass  it,  shall  send  it  to  the  other 
house  with  the  President's  objections,  where  if  two  thirds  of  the  mem- 
bers present  also  agree  to  pass  it,  the  same  shall  become  a  law — & 
all  bills  sent  to  the  President  &  not  returned  by  him  within 
days  shall  be  laws  unless  the  Legislature  by  their  adjournment  prevent 
their  return  in  which  case  they  shall  not  be  laws. 


The  Lepslature  of  the  United  States  shall  have  the  power  to  lay 
&  collect  Taxes  Duties  Imposts  &  excises 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


To  regulate  Commerce  with  all  nations  &  among  the  aerenl 
States — 

To  borrow  raoney  &  emit  bills  of  Credit 

To  establiah  Post  ofBces. 

To  raise  armies 

To  build  &  equip  Fleets 

To  pass  laws  for  arming  organizing  &  disciplining  the  Militia  of 
the  United  States 

To  subdue  a  rebellion  in  any  State  on  application  of  its  legislature 

To  coin  money  &  regulate  the  Value  of  all  coins  &  fix  the  Standard 
of  Weightr  &  measures 

To  provide  such  Dock  Yards  &  arsenals  &  erect  such  fortifications 
as  may  be  necessary  for  the  United  States  &  to  exercise  exclusive  Juris- 
diction therein 

To  appoint  a  Treasurer  by  ballot 

To  constitute  Tribunals  inferior  to  the  Supreme  Court 

To  establish  Post  &  mUitary  Roads 

To  establish  &  provide  for  a  national  University  at  the  Seat  of  the 
Government  of  the  United  States 

To  establish  uniform  rules  of  Naturalization 

To  provide  for  the  establishment  of  a  Seat  ot  uk>vemment  for  the 
United  States  not  exceeding  miles  square  in  which  th^ 

shall  have  exclusive  jurisdiction 

To  make  rules  concerning  Captures  from  an  Enemy 

To  declare  the  law  &  Punishment  of  piracies  &  felonies  at  sea  & 
of  counterfieting  Coin  &  of  all  offences  against  the  Laws  of  Nations 

To  call  forth  the  aid  of  the  Militia  to  execute  the  laws  of  the 
Union  enforce  treaties  suppress  insurrections  &  repel  invasions. 

And  to  make  all  laws  for  carrying  the  foregoing  powers  into  ex- 
ecution — 

The  Legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  have  the  Power  to  de- 
clare the  Punishment  of  Treason  which  shall  consist  only  in  levying 
War  against  the  United  States  or  any  of  them  or  in  adhering  to  their 
Enemi*. — No  person  shall  be  convicted  of  Treason  but  by  the  testi- 
mony of  two  witnesses. — 

The  proportion  of  direct  taxation  shall  be  regulated  by  the  whole 

number  of  inhabitants  of  every  description  which  number  shall  within 

years  after  the  first  meeting  of  the  Legislature  &  within  the 

term  of  every  year  after  be  taken  in  the  manner  to  be 

prescribed  by  the  Legislature 

No  Tax  shall  be  laid  on  articles  exported  from  the  States — nor 
capitation  tax  but  in  proportion  to  the  Census  before  directed. 

All  Laws  regulating  Commerce  shall  require  the  assent  of  two 
thirds  of  the  members  present  in  each  house — The  United  States 
shall  not  grant  any  title  of  Nobility — 

The  Legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  pass  no  Law  on  the 
subject  of  Religion,  nor  touching  or  abridging  the  Liberty  of  the 
Press  nor  shall  the  privilege  of  the  writ  of  Habeas  Corpus  ever  be 
suspended  except  in  case  of  Rebellion  or  Invasion. 

All  acts  made  by  the  Legislature  of  the  United  States  pursuant  to 


604      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

thiB  CoMtitution  &  aU  Treaties  made  under  the  authority  of  the 
United  States  shall  be  the  Supreme  Law  of  the  Land  &  aU  Judgea 
shall  be  bound  to  consider  them  as  such  in  their  decisions. 


The  Senate  shall  have  the  sole  &  exclusive  power  to  declare  War 
&  to  make  treaties  &  to  appoint  Ambassadors  &  other  Ministers  to 
foreign  nations  &  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court. 

They  shall  have  the  exclusive  power  to  regulate  the  manner  ol 
deciding  all  disputes  &  controversies  now  subsisting  or  which  may 
arise  between  the  States  respecting  Jurisdiction  or  Territory. 

8 

The  Executive  Power  of  the  United  States  shaU  be  vested  in  a 
President  of  the  United  States  of  America  which  shaU  be  his  stile 
&  his  title  shall  be  His  Excellency.    He  shall  be  elected  for 
years  &  shall  be  reeligible.  ..     r     •  i  i„       « 

He  shall  from  time  to  time  give  mformation  to  the  legislature  ol 
the  state  of  the  Union  &  recommend  to  their  consideration  the 
measures  he  may  think  necessary— he  shall  take  care  that  the  laws  of 
the  United  States  be  duly  executed:  he  shall  commission  all  the  offlcera 
of  the  United  States  &  except  as  to  Ambassadors  other  ministers  & 
Judites  of  the  Supreme  Court  he  shall  nominate  &  witti  the  consent  of 
the  Ke  appoint  all  other  officers  of  the  United  States-He  shall 
receive  pubUc  Ministera  from  foreign  nations  &  mar  correspond  with 
the  Executives  of  the  different  States.  He  shril  have  power  to  grant 
pardons  &  reprieves  except  in  impeachments-He  shaU  be  Commander 
Kief  of  the  army  &  navy  of  the  United  States  &  of  the  Militia  of 
the  several  States  &  shall  receive  a  compensation  which  shall  not  be 
increased  or  diminished  during  his  continuance  in  office.  At  enter- 
SgoTthe  Duties  of  his  office  he  shaU  take  an  oath  to  faithfully 
^12  the  duties  of  a  President  of  the  United  States.-He  AsH  b« 
removed  from  his  office  on  impeachment  by  the  house  of  Delegates 
&  Conviction  in  the  Supreme  Court  of  Treason  bnbejy  or  Corruption 
—In  case  of  his  removal  death  resignation  or  disability  the  President 
of  the  Senate  shall  exercise  the  duties  of  his  office  until  another 
Pr^ident  be  chosen-*  in  case  of  the  death  of  the  President  of  the 
Senate  the  Speaker  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shaU  do  so. 


The  Legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  have  the  Power  &  it 
shall  be  their  duty  to  establish  such  Courts  of  If^  Equity  &  Admiralty 
as  shall  be  necessary-The  Judges  of  the  Courts  shall  hold  the  r  offices 
during  good  behaviour  &  receive  a  compensation,  which  snail  not  be 
increased  or  diminished  during  their  continuance  in  office— One  of 
these  Courts  shall  be  termed  the  Supreme  Court  whose  jurisdiction 
shall  extend  to  all  cases  arising  under  the  laws  of  the  Lnited  States 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


«0B 


or  affecting  ambasaadon  other  public  Ministers  &  Conaula — to  the 
trial  of  impeachments  of  o£Bcers  of  the  United  States — to  all  cases  of 
Admiralty  &  maritime  jurisdiction— In  cases  of  impeachment  affecting 
ambassadors  &  other  public  Ministers  this  Jurisdiction  shall  be 
original  &  in  all  the  other  cases  appellate — 

All  criminal  offences  (except  in  cases  of  impeachment)  shall  be 
tried  in  the  State  where  they  shall  be  committed — the  trials  ^all  be 
open  &  public  &  be  by  Jury. 

10 

Immediately  after  the  first  census  of  the  people  of  the  United 
States  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  apportion  the  Senate  by  electing 
for  each  State  out  of  the  citizens  resilient  therein  one  Senator  for 
every  members  such  State  shall  haye  in  the  House  of  Dele- 

gates^Each  State  however  shall  be  entitled  to  have  at  least  one  mem- 
ber in  the  Senate. 

11 

No  State  shall  grant  letters  of  marque  &  reprisal  or  enter  into 
treaty  or  alliance  of  confederation  nor  grant  any  title  of  nobility  nor 
without  the  Consent  of  the  Legislature  of  the  United  States  lay  any 
impost  on  imports — nor  keep  troops  or  Ships  of  War  in  time  of  peace 
— ^nor  enter  into  compacts  with  other  States  or  foreign  powers  or  emit 
bills  of  Credit  or  make  any  thing  but  Oold  Silver  or  Copper  a  tender 
in  payment  of  debts  nor  engage  in  War  except  for  self  defence  whea 
actually  invaded  or  the  danger  of  Invasion  is  so  gr^zt  as  not  to  admit 
of  a  delay  until  the  Government  of  the  United  St.  ..es  can  be  informed 
thereof— -&  to  render  these  prohibitions  effectual  the  Legislature  of 
the  United  States  shall  have  the  power  to  revise  the  laws  of  the  several 
States  that  may  be  supposed  to  infringe  the  Powers  exclusively  dele- 
gated by  this  Constitution  to  Congress  &  to  negative  &  annul  such 
as  do. 

12 

The  Citizens  of  each  State  shall  be  entitled  to  all  privileges  & 
immunities  of  Citizens  in  the  several  States — Any  person  charged  with 
Crimes  in  any  State  fleeing  from  justice  to  another  shall  on  demand 
of  the  Executive  of  the  State  from  which  he  fled  be  delivered  up 
&  removed  to  the  State  having  jurisdiction  of  the  offence. 

13 

Pull  faith  shall  be  given  in  each  State  to  the  acts  of  the  Legisla- 
ture &  to  the  records  &  judicial  Proceedings  of  the  Courts  &  magis- 
trates of  ever}'  State. 

14 

The  Legislature  shall  have  power  to  admit  new  States  into  the 
Union  on  the  same  terms  with  the  original  States  provided  two  thirds 
of  the  members  present  in  both  Houses  agree. 


606     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


16 

On  the  application  of  the  legislature  of  a  State  the  United  States 
shall  protect  it  against  domestic  insurrection. 

16 

If  two  thirds  of  the  Legislatures  of  the  States  apply  for  the  same 
the  Legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  call  a  Convention  for  the 
Purpose  of  amending  the  Constitution— or  should  Congress,  with  the 
Consent  of  two  thirds  of  each  house,  propose  to  the  States  amendments 
to  the  same — ^the  agreement  of  two  thirds  of  the  Legislatures  of  the 
States  shall  be  sufiBcient  to  make  the  said  amendments  parts  of  the 
Constitution. 

The  Ratification  of  the  conventions  of  States  shall  be 

sufficient  for  organizing  this  Constitution. 


No.  4.  Madison's  Notb  on  the  Pincknet  Plan  Appabsntlt 
"Written  to  Accompany  his  Debates^ 

The  length  of  the  Document  laid  before  the  Convention,  and  other 
circumstances  having  prevented  the  taking  of  a  copy  at  the  time, 
that  which  is  inserted  in  the  debates  was  taken  from  the  paper  fur- 
nished to  the  Secretary  of  State,  and  contained  in  the  Journal  of 
the  Convention  published  in  1819  which  it  being  taken  for  granted 
was  a  true  copy  was  not  then  examined.  The  coincidence  in  several 
instances  between  that  and  the  Constitution  as  adopted,  having  at- 
tracted the  notice  of  others  was  at  length  suggeb'  ^  to  mine.  On 
comparing  the  paper  with  the  Constitution  in  its  final  form,  or  in 
some  of  its  Stages:  and  with  the  propositions,  and  speeches  of  M? 
Pinckney  in  the  Convention,  it  was  apparent  that  considerable  errour 


'  The  kbove  document  wai  evidently  intended  by  Mkdiion  u  •  note  to  hie 
debates  of  the  SeHiott  of  May  29,  1787.  It  it  here  printed  from  the  ori|inal 
manuacriot.    See  aim  Dooumentary  Bittory  of  tKs  CoMtitution,  Vol.  V  (1905), 

^  For  an  Editorial  Note  prepared  for  the  above  p^>er,  and  lo  entitled  by 
Madiwn,  we  Documentary  Biitory  of  the  Conatitution  of  the  Tinted  Btatet, 
Vol.  V  (1905),  pp.  419-432;  we  also  the  analysis  of  the  Pinckney  plan 
made  by  Madison  in  1835,  in  The  Writing*  of  Jamet  Madison,  Hunt,  Editor, 
Vol.  IX,  pp.  558-567  n.  v    ™    •. 

For  further  expressions  of  views  concerning  the  authenticity  of  the  Pinck- 
ney draft,  see  letter  of  James  Madison  to  Jared  Sparks,  June  27,  1831,  in  Life 
and  Writings  of  Jared  Sparkt,  Herbert  B.  Adams,  Editor.  Vol.  II,  1893,  pp. 
227-229,  The  Record*  of  the  Federal  Convention,  Max  Farrand,  Editor,  Vol.  Ill 

(1911),  pp.  502-503;  to  Jared  Sparks.  November  25,  1831,  in  The  Wrxting*  of 
Jaime*  Madison,  Hunt,  Editor,  Vol.  IX,  1910,  pp.  464-488,  The  Record*  of  the 
Federal  Convention,  Vol.  Ill,  pp.  514-515;  to  Thomas  S.  Qrimke,  January  6, 
1834,  in  Writing*  of  Jamea  Maditon,  Vol.  IXjpp.  528-532,  The  Record*  of  the 
Federal  Convention,  Vol.  Ill,  pp.  531-632;  to  W.  A.  Duer,  June  5,  1836,  in  The 
Writing*  of  Jame*  Madi*on,  Vol.  IX,  pp.  663-668,  The  Record*  of  the  Federal 
Convention,  Vol.  Ill,  pp.  534-537. 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES  607 

nSnS  i!?^  A*  P'if''  occarioned  po«ibly  by  the  loa  of  the 
Document  laid  before  the  conrention  neither  that  nor  the  Rewla- 
S™Thfr^  ^^  Mr  Patte«on  being  «nong  the  preaerved  p^m) 
»nd  by  a  conaequent  nnrt  for  a  copy  to  the  roogh  drauirht  in 
vS  '""^  ^^  interUneationa  foUowing  what  p«ied  in  the  Co" 
vention,  might  be  confounded  in  part  at  leaat  with  the  originiU  text 

Zi^  nfM*"^  ?1  "*"•  **^  **^y  y*^  confounded  £o  in  the 
memoiy  or  the  author. 

•  Z^*™  ■■  K*V  P^P*'  •  «un»l»rity  in  aome  caaea,  and  an  identity 
frit^f^iJ"^  ^'**^  «prea«on.,  and  definiSi  the^JS  S 
Uvit^n^SicTaJ^^  modmcation.  in  the  Convention  that  could  nol 
Exainples  may  be  noticed  in  Article  VHI  of  the  paper-  wh'ch  is 
S'nf'fK,'?"  '"/  *?*  ciKumrtance,  that  whilst  it  n,S'the  W 
tiona  of  the  Preaident,  no  proviaion  ia  contained  in  thTpaper  for  the 
election  of  «,ch  an  offlcer,  nor  indeed  for  the  appointoe^t  o7,my 
ffS'tTfn*''^^"*"^'  nptwiUwtanding  the  evident  pu^  of  ^J 
author  to  provide  an  entire  plan  of  a  Federal  Government 

rnr.t?^?^„l.°  ff"^*"^  »°"^*°°«»  w»»e«  the  paper  correaponda"  with  the 
CoMtitution,  It  18  at  variance  with  the  ideaa  of  M!  Pinckney  aa  de! 
eidedly  exprea«d  in  hia  propoaHiona.  and  in  his  argam™ta^he'fSme^ 

th;  P-tSTn^K^  '■  ^"v  **'  *^*  P.'P*'''  P«>^"on  ia  made  for  removing 
Jul^20  S  wi.^nn'^'fiS'l"*"* '  ^^•'^  it  anpeara  that  in  the  convention! 
trate .  Vi  7Jf  W^-  ^'^  ■°^-  •°lPT'"'^"'*y  »'  the  Executive  Magis^ 
K  aL^'-  V  '  i*  l'  >^«iaired  that  all  money-bills  shall  orijriMte 
A„l  %  i;^^®"^°\°'  the  Lepriature;  which  he  rtrenuoudyTpS 
Aug:  8  and  again  Aug:  11:  In  Art:  V  memben  of  each  Ho\S?are 
made  ineligible  to,  aa  well  as  incapable  of  holding,  any  offlce^d^ 

JialteofhSJ""/'  "^  «t  one  Stage  of  the^onatitS;  TZ 
qualiflcat  on  highly  disapproved  and  opposed  by  him  Amr-  14 

Arf .  TTT  Jfc^r  ''°°*:'"'"^e  evidence  of  errour  in  the  pape7ii  ae^n  in 
„/JL  T '  ^  il*"  P'^V^^i'^  the  Conatitution  does,  that  thVflm Bnmch 
of  the  Legislature  shall  be  chosen  by  the  people  if  the  several  StotoT 

no^2  1"?^"^*^"*  T  '^l  «•    °'  J°^'  accoSLg  to  p«v& 
notice,  too,  a  few  days  only,  after  the  Draft  was  laid  before  the  Con- 
vention, ite  author  opposed  that  mode  of  choice,  urgiij  &  proLSS 
m  place  of  it,  an  election  by  the  Legislatures  of  th^ieferal'sSSSL 
The  remarks  here  made  tho'  not  material  in  themaelveT  weredne 

SediLi^STSio^^RJlS""^  T'^  ^\^  «>"  S^SrfVrp " 
ceeaingj  of  a  Publick  Body,  so  much  an  object,  sometimes,  of  cunoM 
reaearch,  as  at  all  times,  of  profound  interest  cunoua 


608     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

APPENDIX  V 

Haiiilton'8  Dra»t  of  a  Constitution  for  thi  Unitid  Statv 

Copy  of  a  paper  communicated  to  J.  M.  by  Col  HamiU»«  nh^..*  tk. 
close  of  ike  convention  in  Phil^.m?  JL*  aTw*  j2l  Jj 
ike  constitution  u,iUck  kj  u-ould  kZfl,li:i  to\Tit'jL"^^'fy 

th  Jr^nS^"!-  <»V'"'.u"°'**^  ^*''**  °'  A°>«rica  do  ordtln  ft  establish 
thi.  Conrtitution  for  the  government  of  them«lve,  «id  theifjSSrity 

Article  I 

Abticlx  II 
§  1.    The  ABsembly  shall  consist  of  persons  to  be  paIImI  «.«,«. 

§  2.    But  the  first  Assembly  shall  be  chosen  in  the  manner  ni* 

of  whom  N.  Hamshire  shaU  have  five,  Massachussete  thirtee^  S»!i! 
Mand  two,  Connecticut  seven,  N.  Yo^k^N  TeSey  S  p'eSLy* 
vania  twelve,  Delaware  two,  Maryland  eight,  ViSa  d^TN 
Carolma  eight  S.  Carolina  eight,  Georgia  four.      ^^^  ^  ^^ 

Tt^ri^'  ♦  *•  ^»l"t«re  shall  provide  for  the  future  elections  of 
Representatives,  apportioning  them  in  each  State,  from  time  to  time 

Jf  rCl?rT""»rr  ^"  ^  *?u"  °T'^'-  »'  P«™«»  described  fnthSTs 
of  the  VII  article,  so  as  that  the  whole  number  of  Representative 

There  shall  be  a  Census  taken  for  this  purpose  within  thiw  Wni 
after  the  first  meeting  of  the  Legislature,  Q^thiS  mrvT^cSvl 
^^I^f^  ''i  n\ '''?"•    The  term  for  which  RepreSmlt^es  sha^'S 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


609 


ytwn ;  and  the  time  of  Mnriee  of  «U  the  memben  in  each  Aiiembly 
dhall  begin,  (except  in  filling  Tkcaneiee)  on  the  same  dajr,  and  ahall 
always  end  on  the  same  day. 

§  4.  Forty  memben  shall  make  a  Hoom  aufHcient  to  proceed  to 
bosinew;  but  their  number  may  be  increased  by  the  Legislature,  yet 
so  as  never  to  exceed  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  Repre- 
sentatives. 

§  6.  The  Assembly  ahall  choose  its  Preeident  and  other  officers, 
shall  judge  of  the  qualifications  ft  elections  of  its  own  members, 
punish  them  for  improper  conduct  in  their  capacity  of  Representatives 
not  extending  to  life  or  limb ;  and  shall  exclusively  possess  the  power 
of  impeachment  except  in  the  case  of  the  President  of  the  United 
States;  but  no  impeachment  of  a  member  of  the  Senate  ahall  be  by 
less  than  two  thirds  of  the  Representatives  present. 

§  6.  Representatives  may  vote  by  proxy ;  bat  no  Representative 
present  shall  be  proxy  for  more  than  one  who  is  absent.* 

§  7.  Bills  for  raising  revenue,  and  bills  for  appropriating  monies 
for  the  support  of  fleeU  and  armies,  and  for  paying  the  salaries  of 
the  officers  of  Qovemment,  ahall  originate  in  the  Assembly ;  but  may 
be  altered  and  amended  by  the  Senate. 

§  8.  The  acceptance  of  an  office  under  the  United  States  by  a 
Representative  shall  vacate  his  seat  in  the  Aasembly. 

AancLB  m 

§  1.  The  Senate  shall  consist  of  persona  to  be  chosen,  except  in 
the  first  instance,  by  Electors  elected  for  that  purpose  by  the  Citixens 
and  inhabitants  of  the  several  States  comprehended  in  the  Union  who 
shall  have  in  their  own  right,  or  in  the  ri^t  of  their  wifes,  an 
Estate  in  land  for  not  leas  than  life,  or  a  term  of  years,  whereof  at 
the  time  of  giving  their  votes  there  shall  be  at  least  fourteen  yean 
nnexpired. 

§  2.    But  the  first  Senate  shall  be  chosen  in  the  manner  prescribed 

in  the  last  Article  and  shall  consist  of  forty  members  to  be  called 

Senators,  of  whom  N.  Hampshire  shall  have  Maas^ 

R.  Island  Connecticut  N.  Terk  N.Jersey 

Pen*  Delaware  MaryW  Virg* 

N.  Carol?  S.  Carol.  Geo. 

§  3.  The  Legislature  shall  providie  for  the  future  elections  of 
Senaton,  for  which  purpose  the  States  respectively,  which  have  more 
than  one  Senator,  shall  be  divided  into  convenient  districts  to  which 
the  Senators  shall  be  apportioned.  A  State  having  but  one  Senator 
shall  be  itself  a  district  On  the  death,  resignation  or  removal  from 
office  of  a  Senator  his  place  shall  be  supplied  by  a  new  election  in  the 
district  from  which  he  came.  Upon  each  election  there  shall  be 
not  less  than  six  nor  more  than  twelve  electon  chosen  in  a  district. 

§  4.  The  number  of  Senators  shall  never  be  less  than  forty,  nor 
shall  any  State,  if  the  same  thall  not  hereafter  be  divided,  ever  have 
less  than  the  number  allotted  to  it  in  the  second  section  of  this 

*  Querc,  T  (to  provide  for  diitant  Ststet). 


610     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

•rtiele;  bat  the  LegliUtar*  nwy  increaM  the  whole  namber  of 
Senaton,  in  the  ume  proportion  to  the  whole  number  of  Bepreeent*- 
tivi!)  an  forty  i«  to  one  hundred ;  and  such  increue  beyond  the  present 
number,  ehall  be  apportioned  to  the  retpective  Statea  in  a  ratio  to 
the  respective  numbera  of  their  repreaentatives. 

§  5.  If  i^tatea  ahail  be  divided,  or  if  a  new  arrangement  of  the 
boundaries  of  two  or  more  States  shall  take  place,  the  Legislature 
ahall  apportion  the  number  of  Senators  (in  elections  succeeding  such 
division  or  new  arrangement)  to  which  the  constituent  parts  wera 
entitled  according  to  the  change  of  situation,  having  regard  to  the 
number  of  persons  described  in  the  4.  §.  of  the  VII  article. 

§  6.  The  Senaton  shall  hold  their  places  during  good  behaviour, 
removeable  only  by  conviction  on  impeachment  for  aome  crime  or 
misdemeanor.  They  shall  continue  to  exercise  their  offices  when 
impeached  untill  a  conviction  shall  take  place.  Sixteen  Senators 
attending  in  person  shall  be  aufflcient  to  make  a  House  to  transact 
business;  but  the  Legislature  may  increase  thia  number,  yet  so  as 
never  to  exceed  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  Senators.  The 
Senators  may  vote  by  proxy,  but  no  Senator  who  ia  present  shall  be 
proxy  for  more  than  two  who  are  absent. 

§  7.  The  Senate  shall  choose  its  President  and  other  officers; 
shall  judge  of  *ht  qualifications  and  elections  of  ita  members,  and 
ahall  punish  them  for  improper  conduct  in  their  capacity  of  Senators ; 
but  such  punishment  shall  not  extend  to  life  or  limb,  nor  to  expulsion. 
In  the  absence  of  their  President  they  may  choose  a  temporary  Presi- 
dent. The  President  shall  only  have  a  casting  vote  when  the  House  is 
equally  dinded. 

§  8.  The  Senate  shall  exclusively  possess  the  power  of  declaring 
war.  No  Treaty  shall  be  made  without  their  advice  and  consent; 
which  shall  also  be  necessary  to  the  appointment  of  all  officers,  except 
•uch  for  which  a  different  provision  is  made  in  this  Constitution. 


Articli  IV 

§  1,  The  President  of  the  United  States  of  America,  (except  in 
the  first  instance)  shall  be  elected  in  manner  following — The  Judges 
of  the  Supreme  Court  shall  within  sixty  days  after  a  vacancy 
shall  happen,  cause  public  notice  to  be  iriven  in  each  State,  of  such 
vacancy,  appointing  therein  three  several  days  for  the  several  purposes 
following,  to  wit,  a  day  for  commencing  the  election  of  electors  for 
the  purposes  hereinafter  specified,  to  be  called  the  first  electors,  which 
day  Bhall  not  be  less  than  forty,  nor  more  than  sixty  da>-s,  after  the 
day  of  the  publication  of  the  notice  in  each  State — another  day  for  the 
meeting  of  the  electors  not  less  forty  nor  more  than  ninety  days  from 
the  day  for  commencing  their  election — another  day  for  the  meeting 
of  electors  to  be  chosen  by  the  first  electors,  for  the  purpose  herein- 
after specified,  and  to  be  called  the  second  Electors,  which  day  shall 
be  not  less  than  forty  nor  more  than  sixty  days  after  the  day  for  the 
meeting  of  the  first  electors. 

§  2.    After  notice  of  a  vacancy  shall  have  been  given  there  shall 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES  611 

be  chowm  in  each  Rtote  m  number  of  pcmona,  m  the  flnt  eleeton  in 
U»e  preceding  Mction  mentioned,  equal  to  the  whole  number  of  the 
Beprewnt«t3VM  and  Senatori  of  rach  Sutet  in  the  Legialature  of  the 
United  HUtea;  which  electora  Bhall  be  choeen  by  the  Citiiena  of  auch 
SUte  having  an  nUte  of  inheritance  or  for  three  Uvea  in  land  or 
a  clear  penonal  ebUte  of  the  value  of  one  thouaand  Spaniah  milled 
dollara  of  the  preaent  Standard.  wf"**™  lumea 

§  3.  Thefh'  flrrt  electors  shall  mc  t  in  their  respective  Statea  at 
the  time  appointed,  at  one  place ;  and  shall  proceed  to  vote  by  ballot 
for  a  President,  who  shall  not  be  one  of  their  own  number  unleaa 
the  LegiaUture  upon  experiment  should  hereafter  direct  otherwiae 
They  shall  cause  two  lisU  to  be  made  of  the  name  or  names  of  the 
perron  or  persona  voted  for,  which  they  or  the  major  part  of  them 
shall  sign  &  certify.  They  shall  then  proceed  each  to  nominate 
openly  in  the  presence  of  the  others,  two  penwns  as  for  second  electora, 
and  out  of  the  persons  who  shall  have  the  four  highest  numbers  of 
nominations,  they  sliall  afterwards  by  ballot  by  plurality  of  votes 
choose  two  who  shall  be  the  second  electors,  to  each  of  whom  shall  be 
delivered  one  of  the  lisU  before  mentioned.  These  second  electors 
shall  not  be  any  of  the  persons  voted  for  aa  President.  A  copy  of 
the  same  list  signed  and  certified  in  like  manner  ahall  be  trannnitted 
by  the  first  electors  to  the  Seat  of  the  Government  of  the  United 
Statea,  under  a  sealed  cover  directed  to  the  President  of  the  Aaaembly, 
which  after  the  meeting  of  the  Second  electors  shall  be  opened  for 
the  inspection  of  tiie  two  House  of  the  Legislature. 

§  4.    The  second  electors  shall  meet  preoiaely  on  the  day  appointed 
and  not  on  another  day.  at  one  place.     The  Chief  Justice  of  the 
Supreme  Court,  or  if  there  be  no  Chief  Justice  the  Judge  senior  in 
ofllce  in  such  Court,  or  if  there  be  no  one  Judge  senior  in  office,  some 
other  Judge  of  that  Court,  by  the  choice  of  the  rest  of  the  Judges  or 
of  a  majority  of  them,  shall  attend  at  the  same  place  and  shall 
preside  at  the  meeting,  but  shall  have  no  vote.    Two  thirds  of  the 
whole  number  of  the  Electors  shall  conatitute  a -sufficient  meeting 
for  the  execution  of  their  trust.    At  thia  meeting  the  lists  delivered 
to  the  respective  electors  shall  be  produced  and  inspected,  and  if  there 
be  any  person  who  has  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  votes 
given  by  the  first  electors,  he  shall  be  the  President  of  the  United 
States;  but  if  there  be  no  such  person,  the  second  electors  so  met 
shall  proceed  to  vote,  by  ballot,  for  one  of  the  persons  named  in 
the  lists  who  shall  have  the  three  highest  numbers  of  the  votes  of 
the  first  electors;  and  if  upon  the  first  or  any  succeeding  ballot  on 
the  day  of  their  meeting,  either  of  those  persons  shall  have  a  number 
of  votes  equal  to  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  second  electora 
chosen,  he  shall  be  the  President.    But  if  no  such  choice  be  made  on 
the  day  appointed  for  the  meeting  either  by  reason  of  the  non- 
attendance  of  the  second  electors,  or  their  not  agreeing,  or  any  other 
matter,  the  person  having  the  greatest  number  of  votes  of  the  first 
electors  shall  be  the  President. 

§  5.    If  it  should  happen  that  the  Chief  Justice  or  some  other 
Judge  of  the  Supreme  Court  should  not  attend  in  due  time,  the 


m 


612     DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

•econd  electors  »h.U  proceed  to  the  execution  of  their  truat  without 

u_  A  ^'^  ^'  *'*•  Judge*  should  neglect  to  cause  the  notiw*  i«ni,;,^ 

Lmted,  they  may  nevertheless  cause  it  to  be  aftemards  Riven  ^S 

their  neglMt  if  wilful,  is  herel^  declared  to  be^TflSJe  f or  wh2 

hey  may  be  unpeached,  and  if  convicted  they  shaU  S  puSiS  aS 

m  other  cases  of  conviction  on  impeachment  '      *"  °^  punisned  as 

J  7.    The  Legislature  shall   by  permanent  laws   orovidA  moh 

^fp!3S'*^°"  "  '"•y  ^  neceia^for  the  morTorde^J  dection 

?  8  Thl%*'  °",*  eontravening  the  provisions  here^SSbS 

fe  8.    The  President  before  he  shaU  enter  noon  the  PT«.nH«n  «/ 

«™^'^%"^""A"^^  ''°  *'•"'  «'  afflnnationTf^Sy  to  SLute  tJe 
same,  and  to  the  utmost  of  his  Judgment  &  power  to  ow^t^  th« 

^^or 'sSl'^P'*'  r,?  r^?  tlTconsStuS  invilTVS; 
S?at2  fof  Z  Z^'S*  ^-  "^'"i-tered  by  the  President  otTe 
L^ture.  ^  '°  ^'^  P"**""*  °'  ^*^  Houses  of  the 

§  9.    The  Senate  and  the  Assembly  shall  always  convene  in  «»i«. 
non  on  the  day  appointed  for  the  meeting  of  thr^oSd  Il^to«  !^ 

X  "HeTlirS  S  r  ^T^""'  *^«  the  oaK;'affiS?on*  of 
omce.  lie  shall  hold  his  place  during  good  behavior,  removeable  onlv 
by  conviction  u,^an  impeachment  for%ome  crime  or  SIm«mor 
tJ?.-  ^*'*  P««>dent  at  the  beginning  of  every  mST??  the 
Legislature  as  soon  as  they  shaU  beready  to  proceed  to  bSL.h»n 
convene  them  together  at  the  place  whJre  ^rs^nate  S^t  ^S 
^aU  communicate  to  them  all  such  maTt."  ^^^  *  nSe^sS^ 
for  their  information  or  as  may  require  their  consiSioS  hT^ 
m.^f!T  ^^^  *•**  ^^'^  communicate  aU  other  matter  wEh 
«„?r*Pr^  *°  hun  proper.  He  may.  whenever  in  his  opirdon  the 
puWic  business  shall  require  it,  convene  the  Senate  and  Kmblv 

?Ll*  f  *'  ^}'^'  ""^  ""^  P"»««°«  ^^^  ^or  a  time  not  tSSS 
forty  days  at  one  prorogation;  and  if  they  should  disag^^S 

L^^*  ,,H«  ■•»»"  have  a  right  to  negative  aU  bills,  Besolutions  or 
C  TT^%*'I?*^.'*'^  °'.*^*  Legislature  about  to' STS^nS 
IhlTl'Ka  ft  ***"  take  care  that  the  laws  be  faithfnUy  exJSuted.  He 
shall  be  the  commander  m  chief  of  the  army  and  Navy  of  the  United 
Stat«  and  of  tte  MUitia  within  the  several  States.^and  shall  ^^ 
the  direction  of  war  when  commenced,  but  he  shiu  not  take  tS 

leti^TA^^  Z^''^^}^  °'  *°  »™y  ''^*''°°t  the  consenTof  the 
Senate  and  Assembly  All  treaties,  conventions  and  agreements  with 
foreign  nations  shall  be  made  by  him,  by  and  with  the  advice  and 
.T»iT  ^A-^*  S'"*^  ^'  *•"  '"'^«  *«  appointment  of  the  prin. 
pSnfp  ^'fV'®'^''  °'*i*^^  °'  ^^I  departments  of  war,  naval  Affa"«, 
Sd^tw?  Foreign  Affairs;  and  shall  have  the  nomination;  and  by 
ir  i  *£f  '"°'?°*  f  *¥  ^"*to,  the  appointment  of  all  other 
officers  to  be  appointed  under  the  authority  of  the  United  States, 
accept  such  for  whom  different  provision  is  made  by  thi  Constit? 
tion;  and  provided  that  this  shall  not  be  construed  to  prevS  the 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


613 


Legislature,  from  appointing  l>y  name,  in  their  laws,  persona  to 
special  &  particular  trusts  created  in  such  laws;  nor  shall  be  con- 
strued to  prevent  principala  in  offices  merely  ministerial,  from 
constituting  deputies. — In  the  recess  of  the  Senate  he  may  fill  vacan- 
cies in  offices  by  appointments  to  continue  in  force  until  the  end  of 
the  next  Session  of  the  Senate,  and  he  shall  commission  all  officers. 
He  shall  have  power  to  pardon  all  offences  except  treason,  for  which 
he  may  grant  reprieves,  untill  the  opinion  of  the  Senate  &  Assembly 
can  be  had ;  and  with  their  concurrence  may  pardon  the  same. 

§  11.  He  shall  receive  a  fixed  compensation  for  his  services  to 
be  paid  to  him  at  stated  times,  and  not  to  be  increased  nor  diminished 
daring  his  continuance  in  office. 

§  12.  If  he  depart  out  of  the  United  States  without  the  Consent 
of  the  Senate  and  Assembly,  he  shall  thereby  abdicate  his  office. 

§  13.  He  may  be  impeached  for  any  crime  or  miademesnor  by 
the  two  Houses  of  the  Legislature,  two  thirds  of  each  House  con- 
curring, and  if  convicted  shall  be  removed  trom  ofBce.  He  may  be 
afterwards  tried  &  punished  in  the  ordinary  course  of  law.  His 
impeachment  shall  operate  as  a  suspension  from  office  until  the  deter- 
mination thereof. 

§  14.  The  President  of  the  Senate  shall  be  vice  President 
of  the  United  States.  On  the  death,  resignation,  impeachment, 
removal  from  office,  or  absence  from  the  United  States,  of  the  Presi- 
dent thereof,  the  Vice  President  shall  exercise  all  the  powc  *>y  this 
Constitution  vested  in  the  President,  until  another  shall  be  &,  ^  minted, 
or  untill  he  shall  return  within  the  United  States,  if  his  diwence  was 
with  the  consent  of  the  Senate  and  Assembly. 


Abticlb  V 

§  1.  There  shall  be  a  chief  Justice  of  the  Supreme  Court,  who 
together  with  the  other  Judges  thereof,  shall  hold  their  offices  during 
good  behaviour,  removeable  only  by  conviction  on  impeachment  for 
some  crime  or  misdemeanor.  Each  Judge  shall  have  a  competent 
salary  to  be  paid  to  him  at  stated  times,  and  not  to  be  diminished 
during  his  continuance  in  office. 

The  Supreme  Court  shall  have  original  jurisdiction  in  all  cause* 
in  which  the  United  States  shall  be  a  party,  in  all  controversies  be- 
tween the  United  States,  and  a  particular  State,  or  between  two  or 
more  States ;  except  such  as  relate  to  a  claim  of  territory  between  the 
United  States,  and  one  or  more  States,  which  shall  be  determined  in 
the  mode  prescribed  in  tlie  VI  article;  in  all  cases  affecting  foreign 
Ministers,  Consuls  and  Agents;  and  an  appellate  jurisdiction  both 
as  to  law  and  fact  in  all  cases  which  shall  concern  the  Citizens  of 
foreign  nations,  in  all  questions  between  the  Citizens  of  different 
States,  and  in  all  others  in  which  the  fundamental  rights  of  this 
Constitution  are  involved,  subject  to  such  exceptions  as  are  herein 
contained  and  to  such  regulations  as  the  Legislature  shall  provide.  ^ 

The  Judges  of  all  Courts  which  may  be  constituted  by  the  Legis- 
lature shall  also  hold  their  places  during  good  behaviour,  removeable 


614     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

only  by  conviction  on  impeachment  for  some  crime  or  misdemeanor, 
and  shall  have  competent  aalaries  to  be  paid  at  stated  times  and  not 
to  be  diminished  daring  their  continuance  in  office;  but  nothing 
herein  contained  shall  be  construed  to  prevent  the  Legislature  from 
abolishing  such  Courts  themselves. 

All  crimes,  except  upon  impeachment,  shall  be  tried  by  a  Jury  of 
twelve  men;  and  if  they  shall  have  been  committed  within  any  State, 
shall  be  tried  within  such  State;  and  all  civil  causes  arising  under 
this  constitution  of  the  like  kind  with  those  which  have  been  hereto- 
fore triable  by  Jury  in  the  respective  States,  shall  in  like  manner 
be  tried  by  jury;  unless  in  special  cases  the  Legislature  shall  think 
proper  to  make  different  provision,  to  which  provision  the  concur- 
rence of  two  thirds  of  both  Houses  shall  be  necessary. 

§  Impeachments  of  the  President  and  and  Vice  President  of  the  U. 
States,  members  of  the  Senate,  the  Gtovemours  and  Presidents  of  the 
several  States,  the  Principal  or  Chief  Officers  of  the  Departments 
enumerated  in  the  10  §.  of  the  4^  Article,  Ambassadors  and  other 
like  Public  Ministers,  the  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court,  Generals, 
and  Admirals  of  the  Navy  shall  be  tried  by  a  Court  to  consist  of 
the  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court,  and  the  Chief  Justice  or  first  or 
senior  Judge  of  the  superior  Court  of  law  in  each  State,  of  whom 
twelve  shall  constitute  a  Court.  A  majority  of  the  Judges  present 
may  convict.  All  other  persons  shall  be  tried  on  impeachment  by  a 
court  to  consist  of  the  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  and  six  Sen- 
ators drawn  by  lot,  a  majority  of  whom  may  convict. 

Impeachments  shall  clearly  specify  the  particular  offence  for 
which  the  party  accused  is  to  be  tried,  and  judgment  on  conviction 
upon  the  trial  thereof  shall  be  either  removal  from  office  singly,  or 
removal  from  office  and  disqualification  for  holding  any  future  office 
or  place  of  trust;  but  no  Judgment  on  impeachment  shall  prevent 
prosecution  and  punishment  in  the  ordinary  course  of  law ;  provided 
that  no  Judge  concerned  in  such  conviction  shall  sit  as  Judge  on  the 
second  trial.  The  Legislature  may  remove  the  disabilities  incurred 
by  conviction  on  impeachment. 


Abticle  VI 

Controversies  about  the  right  of  territory  between  the  United 
States  and  particular  States  shall  be  determined  by  a  Court  to  be 
constituted  in  manner  following.  The  State  or  States  claiming  in 
opposition  to  the  United  States  as  parties  shall  nominate  a  number 
of  persons,  equal  to  double  the  number  of  the  Judges  of  the  Supreme 
Court  for  the  time  being,  of  whom  none  shall  be  citizens  by  birth 
of  the  States  which  are  parties,  nor  inhabitants  thereof  when  nom- 
inated, and  of  whom  not  more  than  two  shall  have  their  actual 
residence  in  one  State.  Out  of  the  persons  so  nominated  the  Senate 
shall  elect  one  half,  who  together  with  the  Judges  of  the  Supreme 
Court,  shall  form  the  Court  Two  thirds  of  the  whole  number  may 
hear  and  determine  the  controversy,  by  plurality  of  voices.  The 
States  concerned  may  at  their  option  claim  a  decision  by  the  Supreme 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


615 


Court  only.  All  of  the  memben  of  the  Court  hereby  instituted,  shall 
prior  to  the  hearing  of  the  Cause  take  an  oath  impartially  and  accord- 
ing to  the  best  of  their  judgments  and  consciences,  to  hear  and 
determine  the  controvert. 


Abticle  VII 

§  1.  The  Legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  have  power  to 
pass  all  laws  which  they  shall  judge  necessary  to  the  common  defence 
and  general  welfare  of  the  Union :  But  no  Bill,  Besolution,  or  act  of 
the  Senate  and  Assembly  shall  have  the  force  of  a  law  until  it  shall 
have  received  the  assent  of  the  President,  or  of  the  vice-President 
when  exercising  the  porvers  of  the  President;  and  if  such  assent 
shall  not  have  been  given  within  ten  days,  after  such  bill,  resolution 
or  other  act  shall  have  been  presented  to  him  for  that  purpose,  the 
same  shall  not  be  a  law.  No  bill,  resolution  or  oUier  act  not  assented 
to  shall  be  revived  in  the  same  Session  of  the  Legislature.  The  mode 
of  signifying  such  assent  shall  be  by  signing  the  bill  act  of  resolution, 
and  returning  it  so  signed  to  either  House  of  the  Legislature. 

§  2.  The  enacting  stile  of  all  laws  shall  be  "  Be  it  enacted  by 
the  people  of  the  United  States  of  America." 

§  3.  No  bill  of  attainder  shall  be  passed,  nor  any  ex  post  facto 
law;  nor  shall  any  title  of  nobility  be  granted  by  the  United  States, 
or  by  either  of  them ;  nor  shall  any  person  holding  an  ofSce  or  place 
of  trust  under  the  United  States  without  the  permission  of  the  L^ps- 
lature  accept  any  present,  emolument  office  or  title  from  a  foreign 
prince  or  State.  Nor  shall  any  Beligious  Sect,  or  denomination,  or 
religious  test  for  any  office  or  place,  be  ever  established  by  law. 

§  4.  Taxes  on  lands,  houses  and  other  re;.!  estate,  and  capitation 
taxes  shall  be  proportioned  in  each  State  by  the  whole  number  of 
free  persons,  except  Indians  not  taxed,  and  by  three  fifths  of  all  other 
persons. 

§  5  The  two  Houses  of  the  Legislature  may  by  joint  ballot 
appoint  a  Treasurer  of  the  United  States.  Neither  House  in  the 
Session  of  both  Houses,  without  the  consent  of  the  other  shall  adjourn 
for  more  than  three  days  at  a  time.  The  Senators  and  Bepresentatives 
in  attending,  going  to  and  coming  from  the  Session  of  the  respective 
houses  shall  be  privileged  from  arrest  except  for  crimes  and  breaches 
of  the  peace.  The  place  of  meeting  shall  always  be  at  the  seat  of 
Government  which  shall  be  fixed  by  law. 

§  6.  The  laws  of  the  United  States,  and  the  treaties  which  have 
been  made  under  the  articles  of  the  confederation,  and  which  shall  be 
made  under  this  Constitution  shall  be  the  supreme  law  of  the  Land, 
and  shall  be  so  construed  by  the  Courts  of  the  several  States. 

§  7.  The  Legislature  shall  convene  at  least  once  in  each  year, 
which  unless  otherwise  provided  for  by  law,  shall  be  the  first  monday 
in  December. 

§  8.  The  members  of  the  two  Houses  of  the  Legislature  shall 
receive  a  reasonable  compensation  for  their  services,  to  be  paid  out 
of  the  Treasury  of  the  United  States  and  ascertained  by  law.    The 


616      DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

law  for  making  such  provigion  shall  be  paaaed  with  the  concnrrenee 
of  the  first  Assembly  and  shall  extend  to  succeeding  Assemblies ;  and 
no  <>iicceeding  assembly  shall  concur  in  an  alteration  of  such  provision, 
fif»  .  s  to  increase  its  own  compensation ;  but  there  ^all  be  always  a 
law  in  existence  for  making  such  provision. 

abticle  vni 

§  1.  The  Govemour  or  President  of  each  State  shall  be  appointed 
nnder  the  authority  of  the  United  States,  and  shall  have  a  rig^t  to 
negative  all  laws  about  to  be  passed  in  the  State  of  which  he  shall  be 
Govemour  or  President,  subject  to  such  qualifications  and  regulntions, 
as  the  Legislature  of  the  United  States  shall  prescribe.  He  shall  in 
other  respects  have  the  same  powers  only  which  the  Constitution  of 
the  State  does  or  shall  allow  to  its  Govemour  or  Prnident,  except  as 
to  the  appointment  of  Officers  of  the  Militia. 

§  2.  Each  Govemour  or  President  of  a  State  shall  hold  his  office 
until  a  successor  be  actually  appointed,  unless  he  die,  or  resign  or  be 
removed  from  office  by  conviction  on  impeachment.  There  shall  be 
no  appointment  of  such  Governor  or  President  in  the  Becess  of  the 
Senate. 

The  Governours  and  Presidents  of  the  several  States  at  the  time 
of  the  ratification  of  this  Constitution  shall  continue  in  office  in  the 
same  manner  and  with  the  same  powers  as  if  they  had  been  appointed 
pursuant  to  the  first  section  of  this  article. 

The  officers  of  the  Militia  in  the  sevenJ  States  may  be  appointed 
under  the  authority  of  the  U.  States ;  the  Legislature  whereof  may 
authorize  the  Govemors  or  Presidents  of  States  to  make  such 
appointments  with  such  restrictions  as  th^  shall  think  proper. 

Article  IX 

§  1.  No  person  shall  be  eligible  to  the  office  of  President  of  the 
United  States  unless  he  be  now  a  Citizen  of  one  of  the  States,  or  here- 
after be  bom  a  Citizen  of  the  United  States. 

§  2.  No  person  shall  be  eligible  as  a  Senator  or  Representative 
unless  at  the  time  of  his  election  he  be  a  Citizen  and  inhabitant  of 
the  State  in  which  he  is  chosen;  provided  that  he  shall  not  be  deemed 
to  be  disqualified  by  a  temporary  absence  from  the  State. 

§  3.  No  person  entitled  by  this  Constitution  to  elect  or  to  be 
elected  President  of  the  United  States,  or  a  Senator  or  Representative 
in  the  Legislature  thereof,  shall  be  disqualified  but  by  the  conviction 
of  some  offence  for  which  the  law  shall  have  previously  ordained  the 
punishment  of  disqualification.  But  the  Legislature  may  by  law 
provide  that  persons  holding  offices  under  the  United  States  or  either 
of  them  shall  not  be  eligible  to  a  place  in  the  Assembly  or  Senate, 
and  shall  be  during  their  continuance  in  office  suspended  from  sitting 
in  the  Senate. 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


617 


§  4.  No  person  having  an  office  or  place  of  trust  under  the 
United  States  shall  without  permission  of  the  Legislature  accept  any 
present  emolument  office  or  title  from  any  foreign  Prince  or  State. 

§  5.  The  Citizens  of  each  State  shall  be  entitled  to  the  rights 
privileges  and  immunities  of  Citizens  in  every  other  State;  and  full 
faith  and  credit  shall  be  given  in  each  State  to  the  public  acts,  records 
and  judicial  proceedings  of  another. 

§  6.  Fugitives  from  justice  from  one  State  who  shall  be  found  in 
another  shall  be  delivered  up  on  the  application  of  the  State  from 
which  they  fled. 

§  7.  No  new  State  shall  be  erected  within  the  limits  of  another, 
or  by  the  junction  of  two  or  more  States,  without  the  concurrent 
consent  of  the  Legislatures  of  the  United  States  and  of  the  States 
concerned.  The  Legislature  of  the  United  State  may  admit  new 
States  into  the  Union. 

§  8.  The  United  States  are  hereby  declared  to  be  bound  to  guar- 
antee to  each  State  a  Republican  form  of  Government,  and  to  protect 
each  State  as  well  against  domestic  violence  as  foreign  invasion. 

§  9.  All  Treaties,  Contracts  and  engagements  of  the  United 
States  of  America  under  the  articles  of  Confederation  and  perpetual 
Union,  shall  have  equal  validity  under  this  Constitution. 

§  10.  No  State  shall  enter  into  a  Treaty,  Alliance,  or  contract 
with  another,  or  with  a  foreign  power  without  the  consent  of  the 
United  States. 

§  11.  The  members  of  the  Legislature  of  the  United  States  and 
of  each  State,  and  all  officers  Executive  &  Judicial  of  the  one  and 
of  the  other  shall  take  an  oath  or  affirmation  to  support  the  Con- 
stitution of  the  United  States. 

§  12.  This  Constitution  may  receive  such  alterations  and  amend- 
ments as  may  be  proposed  by  the  Legislature  of  the  United  States, 
with  the  concurrence  of  two  thirds  of  the  members  of  both  Houses, 
and  ratified  by  the  Legislatures  of,  or  by  Conventions  of  deputies 
chosen  by  the  people  in,  two  thirds  of  the  States  composing  the 
Union. 

Articls  X 

This  Constitution  shall  be  submitted  to  the  consideration  of  Con- 
ventions in  the  several  States,  the  members  whereof  shall  be  chosen 
by  the  people  of  such  States  respectively  under  the  direction  of  their 
respective  Legislatures.  Each  Convention  which  shall  ratify  the 
Mme,  shall  appoint  the  first  representatives  and  Senators  from  such 
State  according  to  the  rule  prescribed  in  the  §  of  the 

Article.  The  representatives  so  appointed  shall  continue  in  office 
for  one  year  only.  Each  Convention  so  ratifying  shall  give  notice 
thereof  to  the  Congress  of  the  United  States,  transmitting  at  the 
same  time  a  list  of  the  Representatives  and  Senators  chosen.  When 
the  Constitution  shall  have  been  duly  ratified,  Congress  shall  give 
notice  of  a  day  and  place  for  the  meeting  of  the  Senators  and  Repre- 
«entrtives  from  the  several  States;  and  when  these  or  a  majority  of 
them  shall  have  assembled  according  to  such  notice,  they  shall  by 


618     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

joint  ballot,  by  plurality  of  votes,  elect  a  Prendent  of  the  United 
Sutes;  and  the  Constitution  thus  organized  shall  be  carried  into 
effect. 


APPENDIX  VI 

Randolph's  Pboposed  Compromise  to  the  Smaix  States* 
July  10,  1787 

1.  Re8ol<r<^  that  in  the  second  branch  each  State  have  one  vote  in 
the  following  cases, 

1.  in  granting  exclusive  rights  to  Ports. 

2.  in  subjecting  vessels  or  seamen  of  the  U.  States  to  ton- 

nage, duties  or  other  impositions. 

3.  in  regulating  the  navigation  of  Rivers. 

4.  in  regulating  the  rights  to  be  enjoyed  by  citizens  of  one 

State  in  the  other  States. 

5.  in  questions  arising  on  the  guarantee  of  territory. 

6.  in  declaring  war  or  taking  measures  for  subduing  a 

Rebellion. 

7.  in  regulating  Coin. 

8.  in  establishing  &  regulating  the  post  office. 

9.  in  the  admission  of  new  States  into  the  Union. 

10.  in  establishing  rules  for  the  government  of  the  Militia. 

11.  in  raising  a  regular  army. 

12.  in  the  appointment  of  the  Executive. 

13.  in  fixing  the  Seat  of  Government. 

That  in  all  other  cases  the  right  of  suffrage  be  proportioned  accord- 
ing to  an  equitable  rule  of  representation. 

2.  that  for  the  determination  of  certain  important  questions  in 
the  2ff  branch  a  greater  number  of  votes  than  a  mere  majority  be 
requisite. 

3.  that  the  people  of  each  State  ought  to  retain  the  perfect  right 
of  adopting  from  time  to  time  such  forms  of  republican  Government 
as  to  them  may  seem  best,  and  of  making  all  laws  not  contrary  to  the 
articles  of  Union;  subject  to  the  supremacy  of  the  General  Govern- 
ment in  those  instances  only  in  which  that  supremacy  shall  be 
expressly  declared  by  the  articles  of  the  Union. 

4.  That  altho'  every  negative  given  to  the  law  of  e  oarticular 
State  shall  prevent  its  operation,  any  State  may  appeal  to  the  national 
Judiciary  against  a  negative ;  and  that  such  negative  if  adjudged  to 
be  contrary  to  the  powers  granted  by  the  articles  of  the  Union,  shall 
be  void. 

5.  that  any  individual  conceiving  himself  injured  or  oppressed 
by  the  partiality  or  injustice  of  a  law  of  any  particular  State  may 
resort  to  the  National  Judiciary,  who  may  adjudge  such  law  to  be 
void,  if  found  contrary  to  the  principles  of  equity  and  justice. 

'  TTie  text  of  the  propoaal  is  printed  from  Mr.  Madison's  copy  "  communi- 
cated by  Mr.  Randolph  July  10,  as  an  accomodatina  proposition  to  small  State*." 
Sec  also  Doeumentary  BUtory  of  the  Conatituttoit.  Vol.  V  (1905).  pp.  437-438. 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


619 


APPENDIX  VII 

SUBSEQUENT  NOTES  AND  BBMABKS  BY  MADISON 

TO  filS  SPEECH  OP  AUGUST  77l787  ON  THE 

QUESTION  OP  SUFFRAGE 

No.   1.      (NOTE  TO  SPEECH  OF  J[aMK8].   MTadISONI.   IN   CONVENTION 

OF  1787,  AuouB  7TH> 

Ab  appointinentB  for  the  General  Government  here  contemplated 
will,  m  part,  be  made  by  the  State  Gov?  all  the  Citi»ng  in  SUtes 
where  the  nght  of  aulfrage  is  not  limited  to  the  holders  of  property, 
will  have  an  induect  share  of  representation  in  the  General  GoVern^ 
^?Lf^*-  !^  ^^  not  satisfy  the  fundamental  principle  that  men 
'^J:t  A  •""*  ^i^l^^  ''^J*r  "*  "■^'^  '»»'**  they  have  no  part. 
Z^^  f  ^!^^^  '*/°.»  ^^  «^*''^  °^i^^  0'  Government,  the 
most  that  either  can  claim,  u  such  a  structure  of  it,  as  will  leave  a 
reasonable  security  for  the  other.  And  the  most  obvious  provision, 
of  this  double  character,  seems  to  be  that  of  confining  to  the  holder^ 
of  property  the  object  deemed  least  secure  in  populi  Ck)^^  S 
^ht  of  suffrage  for  one  of  the  two  UgisUtive  branches.    This  is  not 

Sln«  "fi^nSll"?'-"*  "^  f  "'•'"  "  °*^*'  constitutional  modiflca- 
toons,  favoring  the  influence  of  property  in  the  Government.    But  the 

Jn-i'of  tr  °f *  "*?A*^  *¥  ^^  *»'  ^^«*y  ^  w*»ich  conflicting  feel- 
J^  n.^*  class  with,  and  the  class  without  property,  have  the  ope«L 
toon  natural  to  them  m  Countries  fuUy  peopled!  The  most  difficult 
of  all  political  arrangements  is  that  of  so  adjusting  the  claims  of  tte 
2j°  TC?J!r.'}  r*  -l^i^^ty  to  each,  and  to  promote  the  welfare  of 
:  The  federal  principle— which  enlarges  the  sphere  of  power  with- 
Z  ?J^™  "'•f  "^  «"» «I««tiv^,.b««  of^  controuta  in  vK  71% 
SL^J^JT^^  *?™ji^  repubbai  to  rash  measures  &  the  facUity  ot 

for"^Si^irpro5em!"'  """  "*  '""*'*  "^  ^*  "^^-^  ^^^  ^^ 
No.  2.  Note  to  tot  Spebob  of  J[ambb].  M[adi80n].  on  the 

[7th]    DAT  OF    [AuOUBT]  » 

These  observations  [in  the  Speech  of  J.  M.    See  debates  in  the 
Convention  of  1787.  on  the  day  of  1  do  not  c^vS  the 

r^''V"/t.^""  *  r*"'^  '^^^ «'  «»•  «uyS,  which  r-il 

joined.    He  felt  too  much  at  the  time  the  example  of  Virainia 
utii^^L^V  "'^'i'*?  "  a  fundamental  Article  in  Bepublicaii  Con- 
stitutaons.    The  regulation  of  it  is,  at  the  same  time,  a  t^k  ofXuliM- 
delicacy.    aUow  the  right  exclusively  to  property,  andttienKS 
persons  may  be  oppressed.    The  feudal  polity  d^^  sufficienUy  prov2 


620     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

it.  Extend  it  equally  to  ail  and  the  rights  of  property  or  the  clainu 
of  justice  may  be  overruled  by  a  majority  without  property,  or  inter- 
eated  in  meaaurea  of  lujuatice.  Of  this  abundant  proof  is  afforded 
by  other  popular  Got«!  and  is  not  without  example,  in  our  oin.  p^ 
ticularly  in  the  laws  unpainng  the  obUgation  of  contracts 

«J«1-!''  i^'*.*'°?T'".*"*'  P«>P«rty  as  well  as  personal  rights  is  an 
essential  object  of  the  Uwa,  which  encourage  industry  by  securing 

i^f  JT^?*  °'  '*"  '"^*ii  ?**  ^°«*'»*'y  '"»  ^hich  property^ 
suits   &  that  enjoyment  which  consists  not  merely  in  its  immediate 

In  a  just  &  a  free,  Government,  therefore,  the  righto  both  of 
property  &  of  penons  ought  to  be  effectually  guarded.  WiU  the 
former  be  so  in  case  of  a  universal  &  equal  suffrageT  Will  the  latter 
be  so  m  case  of  a  suffrage  confined  to  the  holden  of  property  t 
,««„♦  llf  ***/?  **!  property  have  at  stake  all  the  other  rights  com- 
"?Hn^    "*  *''*'»"*  property,  they  may  be  the  more  restniSed  from 

Sh!^WK  *  .»  °e^ert»>e'<«  certain,  that  there  are  variom  waya  in 
7r£?.  T*K°l*^u°PP'*f.*^»  P*^''  ^  ^*'»«»'  property  may  oppress 
!l  /VL'  '^^  *•"?*  *,*1?  ''°^***  »  fl"«*  ^th  eiampleT  It  is  neceiair 
that  the  poor  should  have  a  defence  against  the  danger  °**'*^'^ 
On  the  other  hand,  the  danger  to  the  holders  of  property  can  not 
Jrtv'T^''.**'*^  ^  undefended  against  a  majority  Sthout^wJ- 
l^\^'^  **'  ?"'?,  Tu°°V^  "'"y^'l  •'y  i"**"**  than  individnX 
f^lTulf  •'*5^'?1''^.  ''y  *?«  'i«*«i  o'  "Proach  and  the  other  lS 
Sv  «n^  ''^  |?d>Y«i»«4«:  ,Hence  the  liabUity  of  the  righto  of  propi 
e^.  and  of  the  impwtiriity  of  laws  affecting  it,  to  bl  violat^  by 
Legislative  majorities  having  an  interest  real  or  supposed  in  the  in- 
justice: Hence  agrarian  laws,  and  otier  leveling  schemes:  Hence  the 

must  not  shut  our  eyes  to  the  nature  of  man,  nor  to  the  light  of 
tf  ?wX^-    ^?  ^""J'^  '']r  "°  "  ^"'  ^""^^  '"»  three  ^diSui2. 

MdTe  tht  n„ Jll^T'*  "•  *?^  '"*  '^P'V*^  *«  *»"«  "<^*"  °*  *»>«  third! 
Make  the  number  as  ^eat  as  you  please,  the  impartiality  will  not 
be  increased,  nor  any  further  security  against  injiistice  be  obtain^, 

S"r  Je^Se'SiS-    ^"^  *''  '"*'''■  "^'^^""^  °'  '"'*^'«  «>«  ^"^ 

•  ^°  ?"  S"^*^  *^i5'^  •'  *,  P"^®''  ^hich  is  capable  of  oppressive  exer- 
cise  In  Monarchies  and  Aristocracies  oppression  proceeds  from  a 
want  of  sympathy  &  responsibility  in  the  QovJ  towards  the  people 
In  popular  Govermnente  the  danger  lies  in  an  undue  syiipathy 
S^iJlt"^'^""'*-^'°P**.'°«  ?  majority,  and  a  want  of  mJonsU 
nf  fL  rf-  Ti""?"  ***  the  minority.  The  characteristic  excellence 
of  the  pohticd  System  of  the  U.  S.  arises  from  a  distribution  wd 
organization  of  ,to  powers,  which  at  the  same  time  that  they  secure 

guards  than  are  found  in  any  other  popular  Gov.'  against  intertdted 
combmatioM  of  a  Majority  against  the  rights  of  a  Minority 
♦^k  *•    ^-.States  have  a  precious  advantage  also  in  the  actual  dia- 
tnbution  of  property  particularly  the  landed  property;  and  in  the 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES 


621 


^«.f^i..  ?P*  9L*^'"™«  property.  Thi.  latter  peculiarity  is 
among  the  happiert  oontraata  in  their  litnation  to  thit  rfSTold 
world,  where  no  anticipated  change  in  thia  renject  cm  Jmi^Hv 
inapire  .  like  grn.p.thy*^with  S^Sht.  oFjn,^.'  Sre*^^^ 
at  preaent,  a  Majority  of  the  Nation,  who  are  ewA  frihSd^^  oJ 
the  heiri,  or  aapiranta  to  Freehold*.    And  the  daTmi^o?  b^  ^ew 

B^^^^Zt  T'".'*"'  to  "^e  "P  *  Majority  ofTe  SoiTunft?^ 
But  they  can  not  alwaya  so  continue.    With  every  admiiMble  imh 

of  England  or  Prance,  will  reduce  the  holden  to  a  Minority  ^ 
whenever  the  Majority  shaU  be  without  landed  or  other  eaulv«W 
proper^  and  wiftont  the  meana  or  hope  of  acq.^ri5  it  Sat  i  S 

^SSf.  V"^'  ''*'*^  """P'"*  P«^«  over  proSrS  in  hS 
without  a  ahare  in  it :  not  to  .peak  of  a  danger  in  theTan^tSe  f  rom 
a  dependence  of  an  increaang  number  on  tte  wealth  of  a  ffwt  In 
^^J^T*TJ^  dependence  renilta  in  aome  fixmi  the  SatioS 
between  Landlord.  &  TenanU  in  othen  both  from  th^TmiSJe  &  K 

A^^S^    '  *'^^.  *"^*  ^  precluded  by  our  lawa  of  d«Kent*  of 
not  be  unfrequent    But  it  ni»v  Kn  «)»..J^*kr*  *i^^     ^  .""^ 

or  every  people  u  into  the  owner,  of  the  Soil    «nT«.T«*ir      • 

other  parcel,  left  open  for  common  uw.  a.  well  «  {«  TifJ^  J^!?^   i 
E^ce.  and  monument.;  from  thei?^"  Sf  p^bffi  dSfe^^'^iSS 

£"SiiTtrss?"si?.?rto"'^e*'S  \-'^^- -S^-we 

a  power  of  LeSKn'S^^th'e  TandS^ro'^'T^^ 

The  principle  of  .uch^^ifa^ii^^f  P«)vident  Syrtem  of  Govl 
where  peeuliL  pr^SeB^or^Z^^h'15'iP'*''''''*'**  »°  *"  QovJ* 

8ecured\S?  violatSrlSd  in  tJ.T«^  ^''^^  ^.  "  P*'^  '^e'®  to  be 
u  agr  violation,  and  in  the  various  asMciation.  whew  pecuniary 


622     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

or  other  prapertar  forms  the  itake.  In  the  former  eaae  a  defendve 
ri^t  hM  been  allowed;  and  if  the  arrangement  be  wrong,  it  ia  not 
in  the  defense,  bnt  in  the  kind  of  privilece  to  be  defended.  In  the 
latter  eaae,  the  aharea  of  soffraffe,  allotted  to  individaala  hare  been 
with  acknowledged  juatice  apportioned  more  or  leaa  to  their  reapective 
interests  in  the  Common  Stock. 

These  reflectiona  suggest  the  expediency  of  such  a  modification  of 
Gov!  as  would  give  aecurity  to  the  part  of  the  Society  having  most 
at  stake  and  being  most  exposed  to  danger.  Three  modifleations 
present  themsdves. 

1.  Confining  the  right  of  suffrage  to  freeholders,  A  to  such  aa  hold 
an  equivalent  property,  convertible  of  course  into  freeholds.  The 
objection  to  this  regulation  is  obvious.  It  violates  the  vital  principle 
of  free  Gov}  that  those  who  are  to  be  bound  by  laws,  ought  to  have 
a  voice  in  making  them.  And  the  violation  w'  be  more  strikingly 
TinjuBt  as  the  lawmakers  become  the  minority :  The  regulation  would 
be  as  unpropitious  alao  as  it  would  be  unjust.  It  would  engage  the 
numerical  t  physical  force  in  a  constant  struggle  agf  the  public 
authority ;  unless  kept  down  by  a  standing  army  fatal  to  all  parties. 

2.  Confining  the  right  of  suffrage  for  one  Branch  to  the  holders  of 
property,  and  for  the  other  Branch  to  those  without  property.  This 
arrangement  which  w^  give  a  mutual  defence,  where  there  might  be 
mutu^  danger  of  oicroachment,  baa  an  aapect  of  equality  ft  fairness. 
But  it  w^  not  be  in  fact  either  equal  or  fair,  becauae  the  righta  to 
be  defended  would  be  unequal,  being  on  one  side  thoae  <rf  property 
as  well  aa  of  persons,  and  on  the  other  those  of  persona  only.  The 
temptation  also  to  oicroach  tho'  in  a  certain  degree  mutual,  wf  be 
felt  more  strongly  on  one  side  than  on  the  other ;  It  wf  be  more  likely 
to  beget  an  abuse  of  the  Legislative  Negative  in  extorting  concessions 
at  the  expence.  of  property,  than  the  reverse.  The  division  of  the 
State  into  the  two  Classes,  with  distinct  &  independ!  Organs  of  power, 
and  without  any  intermingled  Agency  whatever,  might  lead  to  con- 
tests &  antipathies  not  diaaimilar  to  those  between  the  Patricians  A 
Plebeians  at  Home. 

3.  Confining  the  right  of  electing  one  Branch  of  the  Legislature 
to  freeholders,  and  admitting  all  others  to  a  conunon  right  with 
holders  of  property,  in  electing  the  other  Branch.  This  w^  give  a 
defensive  power  to  holders  of  property,  and  to  the  class  also  without 
property  when  becoming  a  majority  of  electors,  without  depriving 
them  in  the  mean  time  of  a  participation  in  the  public  Councila.  If 
the  holders  of  property  woidd  thus  have  a  twofold  share  of  repre- 
sentation, they  w^  have  at  the  same  time  a  twofold  stake  in  it,  the 
rights  of  property  as  well  aa  of  persons  the  twofold  object  of  political 
institutions.  And  if  no  exact  and  safe  equilibrium  can  be  introduced, 
it  is  more  reasonable  that  a  preponderating  weight  sh^  be  allowed 
to  the  greater  interest  than  to  the  leaaer.  Experience  alone  can  decide 
how  far  the  practice  in  this  case  would  accord  with  the  Theory.  Such 
a  distribution  of  the  right  of  suffrage  was  tried  in  N.  York  and  has 
been  abandoned  whether  from  experienced  evils  or  party  calculations, 
may  possibly  be  a  question.    It  is  still  on  trial  in  N.  Carolina,  with 


APPENDIX  TO  DEBATES  Mg 

wh«t  practical  indicatioiui  is  sot  known     It  k  pppt.in  *»..*  ♦!.-  *-:  i 

?nSnn1SSY/„'*n^\^M«»^^'- -  *^~^^^^^^ 

A    ah;!S  p"  °"?  'reeholdcfi  ^oold  be  the  majority.       *^       ' 
4.   Bbonld  Expenence  or  paUio  opinion  requir7an  muaI  A  nn! 

m  theU.  8.,  a  resource  favorable  to  the  riffhta  oilMDA^A^^hli 
property,  when  Ua  ««e,«,rs  become  the  Mhfority  Jay  £^found  .n 
an  enlargement  of  the  Election  Diatrieta  for  om  hram.^  «#  .h  r  L  ° 
lature  and  a  prolonjration  of  iU^\S  of  ^^^^      the  Legi^ 

mi-/ku       j^  •'?"  *"«'»  *  modification  aa  the  laat'be  deemed  ii,^ 

of  jtutiee  enUriS  A  SSaJd  £  .  Ki'"f;  the  popular  w-rnw 
the  difllcuSirf Snin»  A^*?.*'  diffnriye  education;  and  from 
*n  ^'t^i^mS^lmjSS^^.X^TJ''^^^  throughout 
and  even  mort^ the  iS^Ss^f^  dirtingniahing  the  U.  8. 
wher.  a  mJMak^  StoiLt  or  ^S.2^"*  '"12  ^^  "^^  wmmunitiea 

•  »«Jorini^Xir4derTf2ti^tt-';r?'^  T^''^  "°l»« 
rights  of  the  Minor  par^  '■««<»■  le«der,  m  trampling  on  the 

Mai°of'^C.*]S.lT„M  ^*  i:?''^  '*  •«™-  ind«Pe»"bl.  that  the 
administer  tL"    and  if  the  LvX^JfvJ^)!^        ''^^  '"  ** 

those  having  the  grcater  intent  ^^^^^^^  ^'^^^  **  "  ^"*''  *»»** 

SaTSoE!atfStHF^^^ 

Aould  be  dern%  of  thTthole         '      '*  **'  ^'*'°*^  '^^'^  "^^ 

No.  3.   Gen!  Remabks  on  th«  CoNVBimow» 
For  case  of  suffrage  see  Deb:  Aug.  7. 


624     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


6. 


ftl..  , gener»Ujr  of  nutare  ase  ft  much  politieal  eiMriuto*. 

Uinntenfltedam  ft  candor  demonitnted  by  mutuil  concei- 

■ion*,  ft  frequent  chaogM  of  opiuion 
Few  who  did  not  change  in  the  progreM  of  diacuMiona  the 

opinioM  on  important  pointt  which  they  carried  into  the 

Convention 

^'Hi  *^°;uV  *t*  '''**®  *»'  *•"•  Convention,  wen  not  ready  to 
admit  thia  change  aa  the  enlightening  effect  of  the  diKua- 

And  how  few.  whose  opiniona  at  the  doae  of  th«  Convention, 
have  not  undergone  change,  on  aome  pointa,  under  U.e  niore 
enlightening  luHuenee  of  experience. 

Yet  how  much  fewer  Htill  who,  if  now  living,  with  the  recol- 
lection  of  the  difflcultie.  in  the  Convent!^',  of  ove«oSg 
or  reconciling  honest  dilTerencee  of  opinion,  political  biaatet 
and  loca^  intereata,  and  with  due  attention  to  the  varietie^ 
ft  diacorda  of  opinion,  Uie  viciaitudea  of  partiea,  and  the  col- 

Sl^°!!#'^I!^  °M  'f^n**  ?'  '~*»  intereata,  witneaaed  on  the 
face  of  the  Nation  would  not  feliciUte  their  Country  on 
the  happy  reault  of  the  original  Convention,  and  deprecate 
the^experiment  of  another  with  general  power  to  raviw  iu 

The  rertraining  influence  of  the  Conati?  on  the  abemtiona  of 
the  Statea  of  great  importance  tho'  inviaible.  It  atiflea 
wuhea  ft  inchnationa  which  w*  otherwiae  ripen  into  overt  ft 
Sr^^lT  ^  T^  ^^^J*"*  themaelvea  arTnncoScioSrof 
2f*  «?!!*■  ^««' »»>«»  ConatituJ  and  inauperable  obataclea 
rnll**"*  ^«jy-how  many  political  abuaea  might  not  have 
aprung  up  where  not  aunpected.  The  Propenaitiea  in  aome 
^^h*!  Maa:  Kent?  ftc  have  not  been  altogether  coi?rSld! 
and  but  for  fore««n  difficulties  might  hive  been  foUoIrl 
oy  greater. 


FART  III 

THE  CONSTITUTION.  ITS  RATIFICATION 
AND  AMENDMENTS 


M 


THE  CONSTITUTION  OP  THE  UNITED  STATES' 

We  the  People  of  the  United  SUte.,  in  Order  to  form  .  more 
perfect  Union,  eeUblish  Justice,  insure  domestic  Tranquility    pro- 

•ecure  the  Blessings  of  Liberty  to  ourselves  aad  our  Porterjr  do 
OTdsm^and  establish  this  Constitution  for  the  United  States  of 

Article.  I. 

Section.  1.  AH  legiriative  Powers  herein  granted  shaU  be  Tested 

r«H  H°°*^»'  *^'  ^"*'^  ^***-'  ''^'^  «*»"  ««»i^  of  a  S 
and  House  of  Representatives.  "^"nw 

2S?^™^;J^*  ^""^  "'  Represenutive.  shall  be  composed  of 
Member,  chosen  every  second  Year  by  the  People  of  the^eral 

SUtes,  and  the  Electors  in  each  State  shaU  have  "X  Qualifications 
r^^tefor  Electors  of  the  most  numerous  Branch  TZ^ 

t«„^  ♦^T"  a"^"  }^  •  B«Pre«ntative  who  shaU  not  have  at- 
tamed  to  the  Age  of  twenty  five  Yea«.  and  been  seven  Years  a 
Citizen  of  the  United  States,  and  who  shaU  not,  when  elect^L^h^ 
«!  Inhabitant  of  that  State  in  which  he  shaU  li  cCn 

Representatives  and  direct  Taxes  shaU  be  apportioned  amonc 
the  several  States  which  may  be  included  withiS  this  Sio?^ 
S^t?  t  i'""  TT'i'  ^'^^"'  ''^'^  ■»»"  ^  determined  Ty 
bound  to  Service  for  a  Term  of  Years,  and  excluding  Indians  not 
.hall  be  made  withm  three  Years  after  the  first  Meeting  of  the 

S^r^el  L^'sJ^V^""'  ""'r^^^  ^'^  ™b«K,rnt  Tern 
«  t€m  Years,  in  such  Manner  as  they  shall  by  Law  direet     Th« 

Number  of  Bepre^ntatives  shaU  not  exceed  oL  foT  ev^thi!^ 

^n^S'  "?  ""'^  ^^'^^  **"  '••^  •*  "^  »•  BepreSitaSJi' 
^fre^llT  ennmeration  ShaU  be  made,  the  State  of  New  B^j^ 
■hire  ShaU  be  entiUed  to  chuse  three.  Massachusetto  eight,  Bho£. 

(Bft 


628     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Islaud  and  Providence  Plantations  one,  Connecticut  five,  New* 
York  six.  New  Jersey  four,  Pennsylvania  eight,  Delaware  one^ 
Maryland  six,  Virginia  ten,  North  Carolina  five,  South  Carolina 
five,  and  Oeorgia  three. 

When  vacancies  happen  in  the  Representation  from  any  State, 
the  Executive  Authority  thereof  shall  issue  Writs  of  Election  to 
fill  such  Vacancies. 

The  House  of  Representatives  shall  chuse  their  Speaker  and 
other  Officers;  and  shall  have  the  sole  Power  of  Impeachment. 

Section.  3.  The  Senate  of  the  United  States  shall  be  composed 
of  two  Senators  from  each  State,  chosen  by  the  Legislature  thereof, 
for  six  Years;  and  each  Senator  shall  have  one  Vote. 

Immediately  after  they  shall  be  assembled  in  Consequence  of 
the  first  Election,  they  shall  be  divided  as  equally  as  may  be  into 
three  Classes.  The  Seats  of  the  Senators  of  the  first  Class  shall 
be  vacated  at  the  Expiration  of  the  second  Year,  of  the  second 
Class  at  the  Expiration  of  the  fourth  Year,  and  of  the  third  Class 
at  the  Expiration  of  the  sixth  Year,  so  that  one  third  may  be 
chosen  every  second  Year;  and  if  Vacancies  happen  by  Resigna- 
tion, or  otherwise,  during  the  Recess  of  the  Legislature  of  any 
State,  the  Executive  thereof  may  make  temporary  Appointments 
until  the  next  Meeting  of  the  Legislature,  which  shall  then  fill  such 
Vacancies. 

No  Person  shall  be  a  Senator  who  shall  not  have  attained  to  the 
Age  of  thirty  Years,  and  been  nine  Years  a  Citizen  of  the  United 
States,  and  who  shall  not,  when  elected,  be  an  Inhabitant  of  that 
State  for  which  he  shall  be  chosen. 

The  Vice  President  of  the  United  States  shall  be  President  of 
the  Senate,  but  shall  have  no  Vote,  unless  they  be  equally  divided. 

The  Senate  shall  chuse  their  other  Officers,  and  also  a  President 
pro  tempore,  in  the  Absence  of  the  Vice  President,  or  when  he  shall 
exercise  the  Office  of  President  of  the  United  States. 

The  Senate  shall  have  the  sole  Power  to  try  all  Impeachments. 
When  sitting  for  that  Purpose,  they  shall  be  on  Oath  or  Affirmation. 

litiM. 

When  the  President  of  the  United  States  ^  the  Chief  Justice  shall 
preside :  And  no  Person  shall  be  convicted  without  the  Concurrence 
of  two  thirds  of  the  Members  present. 

Judgment  in  Cases  of  Impeachment  shall  not  extend  further  than 
to  removal  from  Office,  and  disqualification  to  hold  and  enjoy  any 
Office  of  honor,  Trust  or  Profit  under  the  United  States:  but  the 
Party  convicted  shall  nevertheless  be  liable  and  subject  to  Indict- 
ment, Trial,  Judgment  and  Punishment,  according  to  Law. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      629 

Section.  4.  The  Times,  Plae«»  «ad  Manner  of  holding  Election*  for 
Senators  and  Representatives,  shall  be  prescribed  in  each  State  by  the 
Legislature  thereof;  but  the  Congress  may  at  any  time  by  Law  make 
or  alter  such  Regulations,  except  aa  to  the  Placet  of  chnnng  Senators. 
The  Congress  shall  assemble  at  least  once  in  every  Year,  and 
such  Meeting  shall  be  on  the  first  Mondajr  in  December,  unless  they 
shall  by  Law  appoint  a  different  Day. 

Section.  5.  Each  Hons,;  shall  be  the  Judge  of  the  Eleetiona,  Returns 
and  Qualifications  of  its  own  Members,  and  a  Majority  of  each  shall 
constitute  a  Quorum  to  do  Business;  but  a  smaller  Number  may 
adjourn  from  day  to  day,  and  may  be  aothorixed  to  compel  the 
Attendance  of  absent  Members,  in  mdb  Manner,  and  under  such 
Penalties  as  each  House  may  provide. 

Each  House  may  determine  the  Rules  of  its  Proceedings,  punish 
its  Members  for  disorder,'  Behaviour,  and,  with  the  Concurrence  of 
two  thirds,  expel  a  Mem;>er. 

Each  House  shall  keep  a  Journal  of  its  Proceedings,  and  from 
time  to  time  publish  the  same,  excepting  such  Parts  as  may  in  their 
Judgment  require  Secrecy;  and  the  Yeas  and  Nays  of  the  Members 
of  either  House  on  any  question  shall,  at  the  Desire  of  one  fifth  of 
those  Present,  be  entered  on  the  Journal. 

Neither  House,  during  the  Session  of  Congress,  shall,  without  the 
Consent  of  the  other,  adjourn  for  more  than  three  days,  nor  to  any 
other  Place  than  that  in  which  the  two  Houses  shall  be  sitting. 
Section.  6.  The  Senators  and  Representatives  shall  receive  a  Com- 
pensation for  their  Services,  to  be  ascertained  by  Law,  and  paid  out 
of  the  Treasury  of  the  United  States.  They  shall  in  all  Cases,  ex- 
cept  Treason,  Felony  and  Breach  of  the  Peace,  be  privileged  from 
Arrest  durkg  their  Attendance  at  the  Session  of  their  respective 
Houses,  and  in  going  to  and  returning  from  the  same ;  and  for  any 
Speech  or  Debate  in  either  House,  they  shall  not  be  questioned  in 
any  other  Place. 

No  Senator  or  Representative  shall,  daring  the  Time  for  which  he 
was  elected,  be  appointed  to  any  civil  Oflloe  under  the  Authority  of 
the  United  States,  which  shall  have  been  created,  or  the  Emoluments 
whereof  shall  have  been  encreased  during  such  time;  and  no  Person 
holding  any  Office  under  the  United  States,  shall  be  a  Member  of 
either  House  during  his  Continuance  in  Office. 
Section.  7.  All  Bills  for  raising  Revenue  shall  originate  in  the 
House  of  Representatives ;  but  the  Senate  may  propose  or  concur  with 
Amendments  as  on  other  Bills. 

Every  Bill  which  shall  have  passed  the  House  of  Representatives 


630     DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

*nd  the  Senate,  .haU,  before  it  become  .  Law,  be  presented  to  the 
President  of  the  United  States;  If  he  approve  he  shaU  sign  it,  but  if 
not  he  shaU  return  it.  with  his  Objections  to  that  House  in  which  it 
•haU  have  originated,  who  shall  enter  the  Objections  at  large  on  their 
Journal,  and  proceed  to  reconsider  it.     If  after  such  Reconsidera- 
tion two  thirds  of  that  House  shaU  agree  to  pass  the  Bill,  it  shaU  be 
sen     together  with  the  Objections,  to  the  other  House,  by  which  it 
ShaU  hkewue  be  reconsidered,  and  if  approved  by  two  thirds  of  that 
House   It  shall  become  a  Law.    But  in  all  such  Cases  the  Votes  of 
both  Houses  shall  be  determined  by  yeas  and  Nays,  and  the  Names 
of  the  Persons  voting  for  and  against  the  BUI  shaU  be  entered  on 
the  Jourial  of  each  House  respectively.    If  any  BiU  shaU  not  be 
returned  by  the  President  within  ten  Day.  (Sundays  excepted)  after 
t  shall  have  been  presented  to  him,  the  Same  shall  be  a  Law,  in 
like  Manner  as  if  he  had  signed  it,  unless  the  Congress  by  their 
Adjournment  prevent  its  Betum  in  which  Case  it  shaU  not  be  a  Law. 
Every  Order   Resolution,  or  Vote  to  which  the  Concurrence  of 
the  Senate  and  House  of  Representative,  may  be  necessary  (excep 
o?  X^'^'^'^^yl^^o^^^^t)  shall  be  presented  to  the  President 
of  the  I nited  States;  and  before  the  Same  shall  take  Effect,  shaU 
be  approved  by  h.m,  or  being  disapproved  by  him,  shaU  be  re- 
passed  by  two  thirds  of  the  Senate  and  House  of  Reprelenta^iv^ 
according  to  the  Rule,  and  Limitations  prescribed  in  ^TcToi^ 

Section.  8.  The  Congress  shaU  have  Power  To  lay  and  eoUect  Taxes. 
Diit.es,  Imposts  and  Excises,  to  pay  the  Debts  L  proWdTfor  tS 
Du";ri  ''r'  '^1^°"*'  ^^^-^  °'  *^«  United'sta^*  but  all 
Sta^:       "  ^^  "^  ^  '^''»™  th«.ughout  th;  United 

To  borrow  MoMy  on  the  credit  of  tke  United  States; 

.r,i  a/!*^  "T*^  ^^^  '^"'^  Nations,  and  among  the  sev- 
eral  States,  and  with  the  Indian  Tribes  ■ 

La^°onTe'»bi!!^T'«™lf'^'°'  Naturalization,  and  uniform 

?o  L„  iT^       °'  Bwikrupteies  throughout  the  United  States; 

To  coin  Money,  regulate  the  Value  thereof,  and  of  foreign  Coin 
and  fix  the  Standard  of  Weights  and  Me-nr^s-  * 

To  provide  for  the  Punishment  of  coontcrf^iting  the  Securities 
and  current  Com  of  the  United  Sutes-  cecuniies 

To  establish  Post  Offlea  and  post  Roads 

f.7v  I'Zri*"  '^'  ^""^^  °'  ^*''*°~  »"'*  °««f^  Arts,  by  securing 

tt'r  ;^J'°'w'°/''"'"'"  ""^  ^°^«°««"'  ^be  exclusive  R^^ 
their  respective  Writings  and  Discoveries; 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      631 

To  constitute  Tribonala  inferior  to  the  rapreme  Court; 

To  define  and  punish  Piracies  and  Felonies  committed  on  the 
high  Seas,  and  Offences  against  the  Law  of  Nations; 

To  declare  War,  grant  Letters  of  Marque  and  Beprisal,  and  make 
Rules  concerning  Captures  on  Land  and  Water ; 

To  raise  and  support  Armies,  but  no  Appropriation  of  Money  to 
that  Use  shall  be  for  a  longer  Term  than  two  Years ; 

To  provide  and  maintain  a  Navy ; 

To  make  Rules  for  the  Government  and  Regulation  of  ^  land 
and  naval  Forces; 

To  provide  for  calling  forth  the  Militia  to  execute  the  Laws  of 
the  Union,  suppress  Insurrections  and  repel  Invasions ; 

To  provide  for  organiiing,  arming,  and  disciplining,  the  Militia, 
and  for  governing  such  Part  of  them  as  may  be  employed  in  the 
Service  of  the  United  States,  reserving  to  the  States  respectively,  the 
Appointment  of  the  Officers,  and  the  Authority  of  training  the  Militia 
according  to  the  discipline  prescribed  by  Congress; 

To  exercise  exclusive  Legislation  in  all  Cases  whatsoever,  over 
such  District  (not  exceeding  ten  MOes  square)  as  may,  by  Cession  of 
particular  States,  and  the  Acceptance  of  Congress,  become  the  Seat 
of  the  Government  of  the  United  States,  and  to  exercise  like  Authority 
over  all  Places  purchased  by  the  Consent  of  the  Legislature  of  the 
State  in  which  the  Same  shall  be,  for  the  Erection  of  Forts,  Maga- 
zines, Arsenals,  dock-Yards,  and  other  needful  Buildings;— And 

To  make  all  Laws  which  shall  be  necessary  and  proper  for  carry- 
ing into  Execution  the  foregoing  Powers,  and  all  other  Powers 
vested  by  this  Constitution  in  the  Government  of  the  United  States, 
or  in  any  Department  or  OfBcer  thereof. 

Section.  9.  The  Migration  or  Importation  of  such  Persons  as  any 
of  the  States  now  existing  shall  think  proper  to  admit,  shall  not 
be  prohibited  by  the  Congress  prior  to  the  Year  one  thousand  ei^t 
hundred  and  eight,  but  a  Tax  or  duty  may  be  imposed  on  such  Im- 
portation, not  exceeding  ten  dollars  for  each  Person. 

The  Privilege  of  the  Writ  of  Habeas  Corpus  shaU  not  be  sus- 
pended, unless  when  in  Cases  of  Rebellion  or  Invasion  the  public 
Safety  may  require  it. 

No  Bill  of  Attainder  or  ex  post  facto  Law  shall  be  passed. 
No  Capitation,  or  other  direct.  Tax  shall  be  laid,  unless  in  Pro- 
portion to  the  Census  or  Enumeration  herein  before  directed  to 
be  takoi. 

No  Tax  or  Duty  shall  be  laid  on  Articles  exported  from  any 

State. 


632     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

No  Preference  shall  b«  given  by  any  Regulation  of  Commerce  or 
R-venu*  to  the  Porta  of  one  State  over  thow  of  another:  nor  ahall 
\  -«el»  ^.und  to,  or  from,  one  State,  be  obliged  to  enter,  clear,  or 
p»  y  Dmtj^  in  another. 

No  laf-!-  8hall  be  drawn  from  the  Treasury,  but  in  Conae- 
qnenct  sippropriations  made  by  Law;  and  a  regular  Statement 
and  Accomi  of  the  Receipts  and  Expenditures  of  all  public  Money 
shall  be  puMished  from  time  to  time. 

No  Title  of  Nobility  shall  be  granted  by  the  United  States:  And 
no  Person  holding  any  Office  of  Profit  or  Trust  under  them,  shall, 
without  the  Consent  of  the  Congress,  accept  of  any  present.  Emolu- 
ment, Office,  or  Title,  of  aay  kind  whatever,  from  any  King,  Prince, 
or  foreign  State. 

Section.  10.  No  State  shall  enter  into  any  Treaty,  Alliance,  or  Con- 
federation :  grant  Letters  of  Marque  and  Reprisal ;  coin  Money ;  emit 
Biils  of  Credit;  make  any  Thing  but  gold  and  silver  Coin  a  Tender 
in  Payment  of  Debts  pass  any  Bill  of  Attainder,  ex  post  facto 
Law,  or  Law  impairinc  the  Obligation  of  Cortracts,  or  grant  any 
Title  of  Nobility.  ^ 

No  Statr  sha-I,  without  the  Consent  of  a 
j.fxrts  or  D\  lies  on  Imports  or  Exports,  exo 
lutfly  necessary  for  executing  it's  ixaptrt 
Produce  of  all  Duties  and  Imposts,  laid 
Exports,  shall  be  for  the  Use  of  the  Tre    _i 

and  all  such  Laws  shall  be  subject  to     te 

th* 
of  /^  Congress. 

No  State  shall,  without  the  Cons*  it  of  (        -ess.  If 
of  Tonnage,  keep  Troops,  or  Ships   if  War  i       me  of 
into  any  Agreement  or  Compact  '.         anothe     Sta^f, 
foreign  Power,  or  engage  in  War,  unless  actu    !     lavaJed,  or  in 
such  imminent  Danger  as  will  not  admit  of  deiaj. 


ingress,  lay  any  Im- 
what  may  be  abso- 

L«ws:  and  the  net 

^tate  on  Imports  or 
the  United  States; 

vision  and  Controul 


any  Duty 

>ace,  enter 

)r  with  a 


Article.  II. 

Section.  1.  The  executive  Power  shall  be  vested  in  a  President  of 
the  United  States  of  America.  He  shall  hold  his  Office  during  the 
Term  of  four  Years,  and,  together  with  the  Vice  President,  chosen 
for  the  same  Term,  be  elected  as  follows 

Each  State  shall  appoint,  in  such  Manner  as  the  Legislature 
thereof  may  direct,  a  Number  of  Electors,  equal  to  the  whole  Num- 
ber of  Senators  and  Representatives  to  which  the  State  may  be 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      633 

entitled  in  the  Congress:  but  no  Senator  or  Representative,  or  Per- 
son holding  an  Office  of  Trust  or  Profit  under  the  United  SUtea. 
shall  be  appointed  an  Elector. 

The  Electors  shall  meet  in  their  reapeetive  States,  and  vote  by 
BjOlot  for  two  Persons,  of  whom  one  at  least  shall  not  be  an  In- 
habitant of  the  same  State  with  thenselves.    And  they  shall  make 
a  List  of  all  the  Persons  voted  for,  and  of  the  Number  of  Votes 
for  each ;  which  List  they  shaU  sign  and  certify,  and  transmit  sealed 
to  the  Seat  of  the  Government  of  the  United  States,  directed  to  the 
PreMdent  of  the  Senate.    The  President  of  the  Senate  shaU,  in  the 
Presence  of  the  Senate  and  House  of  Representatives,  open  aU  the 
Certificates,  and  the  Votes  shall  then  be  counted.    The  Perwn  having 
the  greatest  Number  of  Votes  shaU  be  the  President,  if  such  Number 
be  a  Majority  of  the  whole  Number  of  Electors  appointed;  and  if 
IJere  be  more  than  one  who  have  such  Majority,  and  have  an  equal 
Number  of  Votes,  then  the  House  of  Representatives  shaU  imme- 
diately chuse  by  Ballot  one  of  them  for  President;  and  if  no  Person 
have  a  Majority,  then  from  the  five  highest  on  the  List  the  said 
House  ShaU  in  like  Manner  chuse  the  President.    But  in  chusing 
the  President,  the  Votes  shall  be  taken  by  States,  the  Representation 
from  each  SUte  having  one  Vote;  A  quorum  for  this  Purpose  shall 
consist  of  a  Member  or  Members  from  two  thirds  of  the  States,  and 
a  Majority  of  aU  the  States  shall  be  necessary  to  a  Choice.     In 
every  Case,  after  the  Choice  of  the  President,  the  Person  having  the 
greatest  Number  of  Votes  of  the  Electors  shall  be  the  Vice  Presi- 
dent    But  if  there  should  remain  two  or  more  who  have  equal 
Votes,  the  Senate  shall  chuse  from  them  by  BaUot  the  Vice  President. 

The  Congress  may  determine  the  Time  of  chusing  the  Electors 
and  the  Day  on  which  they  shaU  give  their  Votes;  which  Day  shall 
be  the  same  throughout  the  United  States. 

No  Person  except  a  natural  oom  Citixen,  or  a  Citizen  of  the 
United  States,  at  the  time  of  the  Adoption  of  this  Constitution,  shall 
be  eligible  to  the  Office  of  President;  neither  shall  any  Person  be 
eligible  to  that  Office  who  shaU  not  have  attained  to  the  Age  of 
thirty  five  Tears,  and  been  fourteen  Years  a  Resident  within  tht 
United  States. 

In  Case  of  the  Removal  of  the  President  from  Office,  or  of  his 
Death,  Resignation,  or  Inability  to  discharge  the  Powers  and  Duties  of 
the  said  Office,  the  Same  shall  devolve  ou  the  Vice  President,  and  the 
Congreps  may  by  Law  provide  for  the  Case  of  Removal,  Death, 
Resignation  or  Inabflity,  both  of  the  President  and  Vice  President 
declaring  what  Officer  shall  then  act  as  President,  and  such  Officer 


634     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

■hall  aet  accordingly,  until  the  Diaability  be  removed,  or  a  President 
■hall  be  elected. 

The  President  shall,  at  stated  Times,  receive  for  his  Services,  a 
Compensation,  which  shall  neither  he  encreased  nor  diminished  dar- 
ing the  Period  for  which  he  shall  have  been  elected,  and  he  shall  not 
receive  within  that  Period  any  other  Emolument  from  the  United 
States,  or  any  of  them. 

Before  he  enter  on  the  Execution  of  his  Office,  he  shall  take  the 
following  Oath  or  Affirmation: — "  I  do  solemnly  swear  (or  affirm) 
that  I  will  faithfully  execute  the  Office  of  President  of  the  United 
States,  and  will  to  the  best  of  my  Ability,  preserve,  protect  and 
defend  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States." 
Section.  2.  The  President  shall  be  Commander  in  Chief  of  the 
Army  and  Navy  of  the  United  States,  and  of  the  Militia  of  the  sev- 
eral States,  when  called  into  the  actual  Service  of  the  United  Stateaj 
he  may  require  the  Opinion,  in  writing,  of  the  principal  Officer  in 
each  of  the  executive  Departments,  upon  any  Subject  relating  to 
the  Duties  of  their  respective  Offices,  and  he  shall  have  Power  to 
grant  Reprieves  and  Pardons  for  Offences  against  the  United  States, 
except  in  Cases  of  Impeachment. 

He  shall  have  Power,  by  and  with  the  Advice  and  Consent  of 
the  Senate,  to  make  Treaties,  provided  two  thirds  of  the  Senators 
present  concur ;  and  he  shall  nominate,  and  by  and  with  the  Advice 
and  Consent  of  the  Senate,  shall  appoint  Ambassadors,  other  public 
Ministers  and  Consuls,  Judges  of  the  supreme  Court,  and  all  other 
Officers  of  the  United  States,  whose  Appointments  are  not  herein 
otherwise  provided  for,  and  which  shall  be  established  by  Law:  but 
the  Congress  may  by  Law  vest  the  Appointment  of  such  inferior 
Officers,  as  they  think  proper,  in  the  President  alone,  in  the  Courts 
of  Law,  or  in  the  Heads  of  Departments. 

The  President  shall  have  Power  to  fill  up  all  Vaeancies  that  may 
happen  during  the  Recess  of  the  Senate,  by  granting  Commissions 
which  shall  expire  at  the  End  of  their  next  Session. 
Section.  3.  He  shall  from  time  to  time  give  to  the  Congress  In- 
formation of  the  State  of  the  Union,  and  recommend  to  their  Con- 
sideration such  Measures  as  he  shall  judge  necessary  and  expedient ; 
he  may,  on  extraordinary  Occasions,  convene  both  Houses,  or  either 
of  them,  and  in  Case  of  Disagreement  between  them,  with  Respect 
to  the  Time  of  Adjournment,  he  may  adjourn  them  to  such  Time  as 
he  shall  think  proper ;  he  shall  receive  Ambassadors  and  other  public 
Ministers;  he  shall  take  Care  that  the  Laws  be  faithfully  executed, 
and  shall  Commission  all  the  Officers  of  the  United  States. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION.  AMENDMINTS      635 

Section.  4.   The  Pmideut,  Vice  Preddent  and  all  civU  Offleen  of 

for  and  Conviction  of.  Trea«n.  Bribery,  or  other  hich  Crimea  and 
'Miuemeanon. 

Artkle  III. 

Section.  1.  The  jadieial  Power  of  the  United  Statea.  ahall  be  veated 
in  one  aupreme  Court,  and  in  rach  inferior  Courta  aa  the  Congreaa 
may  from  time  to  time  ordwn  and  establiah.  The  Judges,  both  of 
tte  aupreme  and  inferior  Courts  diaU  hold  their  Offlcea  during  good 
Behaviour,  and  .hall,  at  ateted  Timea,  rweive  for  their  Servici  . 
Compenution^hich  ahaU  not  be  diminiahed  during  their  cin- 
tinuance  in  OfBee. 

Section.  2.  The  judicial  Power  diaU  extend  to  all  Caaea.  in  Law  and 
Equity,  anamg  under  thia  Conatitution.  the  Lawa  of  the  United 
Stotes,  and  Treatiea  made,  or  which  ahall  be  made,  under  their 
Authority  ;-to  all  Caaea  affecting  Ambaaaadora.  other  public  Min- 
«ten  and  Conaulaj-to  all  Caaea  of  admiralty  and  maritime  Juria- 
diction  ;-to  Controverriee  to  which  the  United  SUtea  ahaU  be  a 
Party  ;-toControver>iea  between  two  or  more  SUtee  j-between  a 
State  and  Citiiena  of  another  SUte  ;-between  Citiaena  of  different 
atatea,— between  Citiaena  of  the  aame  State  claiming  Landa  under 
Granta  of  different  Statea.  and  between  a  SUte.  or  the  Citiaena 
thereof,  and  foreign  Statea,  Citiaena  or  Snbjecta. 

In  all  Caaea  affecting  Ambaaaadora,  other  public  Uiniaten  and 
Conanla.  and  thoee  in  which  a  Sute  ahall  be  Party,  the  supreme 
tourt  shaU  have  original  Juriadiction.  In  aU  the  other  Caaea  be- 
fore mentioned,  the  aupreme  Court  ahaU  have  appellate  Juris- 
diction, both  aa  to  Law  and  Pact,  with  such  ExcepUona,  and  under 
such  Regulationa  aa  the  Congreaa  ahall  make. 

The  Trial  of  all  Crimea,  except  in  Caaea  of  Impeachment,  shaU 
be  by  Jury;  and  sneh  Trial  ahaU  be  held  in  the  State  where  the 
aaid  Crimea  ahaU  have  been  committed;  but  when  not  committed 
within  any  State,  the  Trial  shaU  be  at  such  Place  or  Places  as  the 
Congreaa  may  by  Law  have  directed. 

Section.  3.   Treaaon  against  the  United  SUtes,  shall  consist  only  in 
levying  War  against  them,  or  in  adhering  to  their  Enemies,  giving 
them  Aid  and  Comfort.    No  Person  shall  be  convicted  of  Treason 
unless  on  the  Testimony  of  two  Witnesses  to  the  aame  overt  Act 
or  OD  Confeasion  in  open  Court. 

The  Congress  shall  have  Power  to  declare  the  Punishment  of 
Treason,  but  no  Attainder  of  Treason  shall  work  Corruption  of 
Blood,  or  Forfeiture  except  during  the  Lifr  of  the  Pewon  attainted. 


636     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEOEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


Article.  IV. 

Section.  1.  Full  Faith  and  Credit  shall  be  firen  in  each  State  to 
the  public  Acta,  Records,  and  judicial  Proceedingi  of  every  other 
State,  And  the  Congrees  may  by  general  Laws  prescribe  the  Man- 
ner in  which  such  Acts,  Records  and  Proceedings  shall  be  proved, 
and  the  Effect  thereof. 

Section.  2.  The  Citizens  of  each  StaU>  shall  be  entitled  to  all  Privi- 
leges and  Immunities  of  Citizens  in  the  several  States. 

A  Person  charged  in  any  State  with  Treason,  Felony,  or  other 
Crime,  who  shall  flee  from  Justice,  and  be  found  in  another  State, 
ahall  on  Demand  of  the  executive  Authority  of  the  State  from 
which  he  fled,  be  delivered  up,  to  be  removed  to  the  State  having 
Jurisdiction  of  the  Crime. 

No  Person  held  to  Service  or  Labour  in  one  State,  under  the 
Laws  thereof,  escaping  into  another,  shall,  in  Consequence  of  any 
Law  or  Regulation  therein,  be  discharged  from  such  Service  or 
Labour,  but  shall  be  delivered  up  on  C.jK  )f  the  Party  to  whom 
such  Service  or  Labotir  may  be  due. 

Section.  3.  New  States  may  be  adruitted  </f  e  ''^ngreaa  into  this 
Union;  but  no  new  State  shall  be  formed  ur  ere«t«d  within  the 
Jurisdiction  of  any  other  8t»^«;  nor  any  State  be  forSMM  by  the 
Junction  of  two  or  more  States,  or  Parts  of  States,  without  the  Con- 
sent of  the  Legislatures  of  the  States  concerned  as  well  as  of  the 
Congress. 

The  Congress  shall  have  Power  to  dispose  of  and  make  all 
needful  Rules  and  Regulations  respecting  the  Territory  or  other 
Property  belonging  to  the  United  States;  and  nothing  in  this  Con- 
stitution shall  be  so  construed  as  to  Prejudice  any  Claims  of  the 
United  States,  or  of  any  particular  State. 

Section.  4.  The  United  Statra  ahall  guarantee  to  every  State  in 
this  Union  a  Republican  Form  of  Oovcrnment,  and  shall  protect 
each  of  them  against  Invasion;  and  on  Application  of  the  Legisla- 
ture, or  of  the  Executive  (when  the  Legislature  cannot  be  con- 
vened) against  domestic  Vidience. 

Article.  V. 

The  Congress,  whenever  two  thirds  of  both  Ho>ise8  shall  deem  it 
necessary,  shall  propose  Amendment*  to  this  Constitution,  or,  on  the 
Applicat^n  of  the  Legislatures  of  two  tt»irds  of  the  several  States, 
shall  call  a  Convention  for  proposing  Ammdmftiis,  which,  in  either 
Case,  shall  be  valid  to  all  Intents  and  Purpose,  as  Fart  of  this 


CONSTITUTION.  RATIFICATION,  lilBNDMlNTS      687 

Cofiititution,  wheu  ratified  by  til*  UtkUtam  of  tki*.  #««^i..  ^ 

U«  OB.  «  the  other  Mod.  of  lUtifl^tion  m^ U^rJSi^^'Z 

the  Bret  Article;  «id  th«  no  Stute.  without  ita  Con^nL^iJl  S 
depnved  of  if.  eqiul  8iiffn«e  in  the  B«iiu.  ^ 

ArtieU.  VI. 
All  Debte  eontraeted  uid  BnnaNn«nta  mt^M^  .«»     u  * 
Adoption  of  thi.  Con.titutlon"27rM\rd"/^°:  ^ri::^'^* 

BhJi^lT     i  °'  ""*  '•'•  ^^  «*  «••  United  St.te.  which 
^  be  meda  m  Pumance  thereof,  and  ail  Treatie.  ma.k  or  Ih  A 

the  aupreme  Law  of  the  Land;  and  the  Jndcea  in  every  SUte  ri.^ 
State  to  the  Contrary  notwithatandinf  ^ 

MJ^*r«^rJr  "'^  ,B!P««°»''«^-  before  mentioned,  and  the 
T^^r^m  ^^\'^^*"^  SUte  Lcgiriaturea,  and  ail  exei^utive  and 
'ITi  2"T:  ^'^  °'  '^'  ^°'*«*»  SUte.  and  of  the  «v^Tst.t« 
eh.ll  be  bound  by  Oath  or  AlBnnation.  to  ™pport  thb  C^^titSr 
but  no  relnjious  Tert  d,all  ever  be  required  m  a  Qualifi^t^n  to  «y 
Office  or  public  Truat  under  the  United  Sute^  ^ 

Article.  VII. 

^J^.^^V'Z'^  ^'  Convention,  of  nine  State.,  .hall  be 
««cient  for  the  EeUWiahment  of  thia  Conrtitution  bS  w«n  tb! 
States  90  ratifying  tbe  Same.  oeiween  tbe 

Tfce  Word,  "the,"  being  intw- 
Kned  between  tbe  aerenth  and 
eighth  Lines  of  the  first  Ptgn, 
The  Word  "Tbwty"  being 
partly  written  oe  an  Ermaare  m 
the  Hfteenth  Lwe  of  the  int 
Page,  The  Word.«i  "  ia  tried  "  be- 
ing interKned  between  th^  thirty 
second  and  Uhirty  third  Luies  of 
«ie  lint  ftm  and  the  Word 
*fce"  being  interlined  between 
the  i»rty  third  end  forty  fovtb 
Lines  of  the  <iecond  Psg* 


Attest  WnxLui  Jackson  Secretaiy 


done  in  Conir«ntion  by  the  Unani- 
mous Consent  of  the  States  present 
the  Seventeenth  Day  of  September  in 
the  Year  of  our  Lord  one  thcuaand 
seven  hundred  and  Ei^ty  aeven 
and  of  the  Independence  of  the 
United  States  of  America  the 
Twelfth  In  witnesa  whereof  We 
have  hereunto  sub^ribed  our  Names, 
09  WASHmoTON— Presid* 
and  deputy  from  Virginia 


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lANSI  and  ISO  TEST  CHART  No   2| 


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^■-  f?16l   i,62  -  030n  -  Ohone 

^S  (716)    288-5989  -fan 


638     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


New  Hampshire 

Massachusetts 

Connecticut 
New  York  . 


New  Jersey 


Pensylvania 


Delaware 


Maryland 
Virginia 
North  Carolina 


Sooth  Carolina 


Georpa 


(  John  Lanodon       ) 
1  NicHOLJUS  Oilman   \ 
j  Nathaniel  Gohham 
1  BuruB  Kdjo 
I  WV  SahV  Johnson 
1  BooKR  Sherman 
Alexander  Hamilton 

rWlL:  LiVINQSTON 

J  David  Breablet. 
"{  W**  Patebson. 

Jona:  Dayton 
'B  Franklin 

Thomas  MnruN 

Bob''  Morris 

Geo.  Cltmer 

Tho?  FrrzSiMONS 

Jared  Inoersoll 

James  Wilson 

QoTTV  Morris 
'Geo:  Bead 

GuNNiNQ  Bedford  jun 

John  Dickinson 

BiCHARD   BaSSETT 

Jaco:  Broom 
V  James  M^Henrt 
J  Dan  o»  S**  Tho?  Jenifer 
1  Dan^  Carroll 
(  John  Blair— 
I  James  Madison  Jr. 
c  W"  Blount 
.J  BiCH?  DoBBS  Spai«ht. 

HU  WlLLIAMSOH 

J.  Etjtledge 

Charles  Cotesworth  Pincknet 

CHABLEg  f  INCKNET 

1  Pierce  Butler. 
j  William  Few 
I  Abr  Baldwin 


I: 


CONSTITUTION,  BATIFIGATION,  AMENDMENTS      639 

LETTEB  OF  THE  PRESIDENT  OF  THE  FEDERAL  CON- 
VENTION, DATED  SEPTEMBER  17,  1787,  TO  THE 
PRESIDENT  OF  CONGRESS,  TRANSMITTING  THE  CON- 
STITUTION.* 

In  Comtektion,  Septembib  17,  1787.* 
Sir, 

We  have  now  the  honor  to  submit  to  the  consideration  of  the 
United  States  in  Congress  assembled,  that  Constitution  which  has  ap- 
peared to  us  the  most  adviseable. 

The  friends  of  our  country  have  long  seen  and  desired,  that  the 
power  of  making  war,  peace,  and  treaties,  that  of  levying  money  and 
regulating  commerce,  and  ibe  correspondent  executive  and  judicial 
authorities  should  be  fully  and  effectually  vested  in  the  general  gov- 
ernment of  the  Union :  But  the  impropriety  of  delegating  such  exten- 
sive trust  to  one  body  of  men  is  evident — Hence  results  the  necessity 
of  a  different  organization. 

It  is  obviously  impracticable  in  the  federal  government  of  these 
states,  to  secure  all  rights  of  independent  sovereignty  to  each,  and  yet 
provide  for  the  interest  and  safety  of  all:  Individuals  entering  into 
society,  must  give  up  a  share  of  liberty  to  preserve  the  rest.  The 
magnitude  of  the  sacrifice  must  depend  as  well  on  situation  and  cir- 
cumstance, as  on  the  object  to  be  obtained.  It  is  at  all  times  difScult 
to  draw  with  precision  the  line  between  those  rights  which  must  be 
surrendered,  and  those  which  may  be  reserved;  and  on  the  present 
occasion  this  difficulty  was  encreased  by  a  difference  among  the  sev- 
eral states  as  to  their  '''^uation,  extent,  habits,  and  particular  interests. 

In  all  our  delil  .ions  on  this  subject  we  kept  steadily  in  our  view, 
that  which  appears  lo  us  the  greatest  interest  of  every  true  American, 
the  consolidation  of  our  Union,  in  which  is  involved  oar  prosperity, 
felicity,  safety,  perhaps  our  national  existence.  This  important  con- 
sideration, seriously  and  deeply  impressed  on  our  minds,  led  each  state 
in  the  Convention  to  be  less  rigid  on  points  of  inferior  magnitude,  than 
might  have  been  otherwise  expected ;  and  thus  the  Constitution,  which 
we  now  present,  is  the  result  of  a  spirit  of  amity,  and  of  that  mutual 
deference  and  concession  which  the  peculiarity  of  our  political  situa- 
tion rendered  indispensible. 


'Reprinted  from  Doeumentary  Biitory  of  (ke  CotMtttution,  Vol.  11  (1894), 
pp.  1,  2. 

*  From  WaBhington'g  copy  of  the  Journal  of  Congress  (Vol.  XII,  p.  164),  the 
original  not  having  been  found  among  the  papers  of  the  Continental  Congress 
up  to  the  time  of  going  to  press. 


640     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

That  it  wUl  meet  the  f  uU  and  entire  approbation  of  every  state  is 
not  perhaps  to  be  expected;  but  each  will  doubtless  consider,  that  had 
her  interest  been  alone  consulted,  the  consequences  might  have  been 
particularly  disagreeable  or  injurious  to  others;  that  it  u  liable  to  as 
few  exceptions  as  could  reasonably  have  been  expected,  we  hope  and 
beUeve;  that  it  may  promote  the  lasting  welfare  of  that  country  so 
dear  to  us  aU,  and  secure  her  freedom  and  happiness,  is  our  most 

ardent  wish. 

With  great  respect,  We  have  the  honor  to  be.  Sir, 
Your  Excellency's 

moat  obedient  and  humble  servants, 

GiOBOE  Washington,  Pretideni. 
By  unanimout  Order  of  the  Convention. 
His  Excellency  the  Pbesidknt  of  Congbbss. 


RESOLUTION  OF  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  SUB- 
MITTING THE  CONSTITUTION  TO  CONGRESS,  SEPTEM- 
BER 17,  1787.' 

In  Convention  Monday  Sbptbmbbb  17*  1787. 

Present 

Th3  States  of 

New  Hampshire,  Massachusetts,  Connecticut,  M*  HamUton  from  New 

York,  New   Jersey,   Pennsylvania,   Delaware,   Maryland,   Virginia, 

North  Carolina,  South  Carolina  and  Georgia.   Resolved, 

That  the  preceeding  Constitution  be  laid  before  the  United  States 
in  Congress  assembled,  and  that  it  is  the  Opinion  of  this  Convention, 
that  it  should  afterwards  be  submitted  to  a  Convention  of  Delegates, 
chosen  in  each  State  by  the  People  thereof,  under  the  Recommenda- 
tion of  its  Legislature,  for  their  Assent  and  Ratification;  and  that  each 
Convention  assenting  to,  and  ratifying  the  Same,  should  give  Notice 
thereof  to  the  United  States  in  Congress  assembled. 
Resolved,  That  it  is  the  Opinion  of  this  Convention,  that  as  soon  as 
the  Conventions  of  nine  States  shall  have  ratified  this  Constitution  the 
United  States  in  Congress  assembled  should  fix  a  Day  on  which  Elec- 
tors  should  be  appointed  by  the  States  which  chaU  have  ratified  the 
same,  and  a  Day  on  which  the  Electors  should  assemble  to  vote  for  the 
President,  and  the  Time  and  Place  for  commencing  Proceedings  under 
■Reprinted  from  Documentary  BMory  of  the  Constitution,  Vol.  II  (1894). 
pp.  20,  21. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      641 

thii  Constitution.  That  after  such  Publication  the  Electors  should  be 
appointed,  and  the  Senators  and  Representatives  elected:  That  the 
Electors  should  meet  on  the  Day  fixed  for  the  Election  of  the  Presi- 
dent, and  should  transmit  their  Votes  certified,  signed,  sealed  and 
directed,  as  the  Constitution  requires,  to  the  Secretary  of  the  United 
States  in  Congress  assembled,  that  the  Senators  and  Representatives 
should  convene  at  the  Time  and  Place  aivigned;  i^^hat  the  Senators 
should  appoint  a  President  of  the  Senate,  for  the  sole  Purpose  of  re- 
ceiving, opening  and  counting  the  Votes  for  President ;  and,  that  after 
he  shall  be  chosen,  the  Congress,  together  with  the  President,  should, 
Kithout  Delay,  proceed  to  execute  this  Constitution. 

By  the  Unanimous  Order  of  the  Convention 

Qo  Wasbimotom  Preaid* 

W.  Jackson  Secretary. 


RESOLUTION  OP  CONGRESS  OP  SEPTEMBER  28,  1787, 
SUBMITTING  THE  CONSTITUTION  TO  THE  SEVERAL 
STATES.* 

FRn>AT  SsPT  28.  1787 » 

Congress  assembled  present  Newhampshire  Musachnsetts  Con- 
necticut New  York  New  Jersey  Pensylvania,  Delaware  Virginia  North 
Carolina  South  Carolina  and  Qeorgin  and  from  Maryland  M'  Ross 

Congress  having  received  the  repoit  of  the  Convention  lately  as- 
sembled in  Philadelphia 

Resolved  Unanimously  that  the  said  Report  with  the  resolutions 
and  letter  accompanying  the  same  be  transmitted  to  the  several  lepis- 
latnres  in  Order  to  be  submiited  to  a  convention  of  Delegates  chosen 
in  each  state  by  the  people  thereof  in  conformity  to  the  resolves  of 
the  Convention  made  and  provided  in  that  case. 


p.  22 


■Beprinted  from  Dwmmentary  BUtory  of  the  CoMtitution,  Vol.  II  (18B4), 


'  From  the  "  Boofl^"  Joomal  of  CongrcM  (No.  1,  Vol.  38). 


642 


DEBATES  IN  THE  PBDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


cniCULAE  LETTER  OP  THE  SECBETABY  OF  CONGRESS 
D^D  SEPTEMBER  28.  1787,  TRANSMITTING  COPY  OP 
THE  CONSTITUTION  TO  THE  SEVERAL  GOVERNORS.' 


(CircTJlar) » 


Sir 


OflSce  ol  Secretary  of  Congre«8 
Sep«  28*  1787- 


In  obedience  to  an  unanimous  resolution  of  the  United  States  in 
Congress  Assembled,  a  copr  of  which  is  annexed,  I  have  the  honor  to 
trawmit  to  Your  Excellency,  the  Report  of  the  Convention  lately 
Assembled  in  Philadelphia,  together  with  the  resolutions  and  letter 
accompanying  the  same;  And  have  to  request  that  Your  Excellency 
will  be  pleased  to  lay  the  same  before  the  Legislature,  m  orfer  that  it 
may  be  submitted  to  a  Convention  of  Delegates  chosen  in  Your  State 
by  the  people  of  the  State  in  conformity  to  the  resolves  of  the  Con- 
vention,  made  &  provided  in  that  case.— 

with  the  greatest  respect 
I  have  the  honor  Ac— 

C:T— 

transmitting  the  \ 

Report  of  the  Convention  J 


RATIFICATION  OF  THE  CONSTITUTION  BY  THE  SEVERAL 
sSe?  AR  lANGED  IN  THE  ORDER  OP  THEIR  RATIFI- 
CATION. 

Statb  of  Dilawabb* 

We  the  Deputies  of  the  People  of  the  Delaware  SUte,  in  Conven- 
tion met,  having  taken  into  our  serious  consideration  «»«  F«»eral 
Constitution  proposed  and  agreed  upon  by  the  Deputies  of  the  United 
States  in  a  General  Convention  held  at  the  City  of  Philadelphia  on  the 
seventeenth  day  of  September  in  the  year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand 
seven  hundred  and  eighty  seven.  Have  approved,  assented  to,  ratified, 
and  confirmed,  and  by  these  Presents,  Do,  in  virtue  of  the  Power  and 
Authority  to  us  given  for  that  purpose,  for  and  in  behalf  of  ourselves 

'Keprlnted  from  Documentary  Butorv  of  the  ConMtitutUm.  Vol.  11  (1804), 
^'  ^'."  From  the  recorded  letter,  of  the  "  OfBce  of  Secretary  of  Congre..  "  (No.  19. 
^-  ''^Reprinted  from  Documm^ta^  BUtom  of  the  ConeHtution,  Vol.  II  (1894). 
pp.  25-26. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      643 

and  oar  Conitittwnta,  fally,  freely,  and  entirely  approve  of,  aaaent  to, 
ratify,  and  confirm  the  laid  Conatitntion. 

Done  in  Convention  at  Dover  thia  wventh  day  of  December  in 
the  year  aforesaid,  and  in  the  year  of  the  Independence  of  the  United 
States  of  America  the  twelfth.  In  Testimony  whereof  we  have  here- 
unto subscribed  our  Names — 


Sussex  County 
John  Inobak 
John  Jones 
Wnxuu  MooHS 
William  Hall 
Thomas  Laws 
Isaac  Coopbb 
Woodman  Stobslt 
John  Law3 
Thomas  Evans 
IsHABi  Holland 


Kent  Counfy 
Nicholas  RmaBiET 
Bichabd  Smith 
Oeoroe  Taurrr 

BlOHABD  BaSBBTT 

Jamis  Stkes 
Allen  MIjanb 
Daniel  Cummins  sent 
Joseph  Babkbb 
Edwabd  Whttb 
Gbobos  Maniovb 


New  Castle  County 
Ja"  Latimsb,  President 
James  Black 
Jn*'  James 

GcNNiNO  Bedford  Sen! 
Eenset  Johns 
Thomas  Watson 
Solomon  Maxwell 
Nicholas  Wat 
Thomas  Duff 
Ottnn*'  Bedford  Jxaf. 


To  all  whom  these  Presents  shall  come  Greeting,  I  Thomas  Collins 

President  of  the  Delaware  State  do  hereby  certify,  that  the  above  in- 

instrument  of  writing  is  a  true  copy  of  the  original  ratification  of  the 

I  Foederal  Constitution  by  the  Convention  of  the  Delaware  S^ate,  which 

aboriginal  ratification  is  now  in  my  possession.    In  Testimony  whereof  I 

have  caused  the  seal  of  the  Delaware  State  to  be  hereunto  an'ezed. 

Tho'Coixinb 

State  or  Pennstltania* 
In  ike  Name  of  thi  People  of  Penn»ylv«mia. 

Be  it  Known  unto  all  Men  that  We  the  Delegates  of  the  People  of 
the  Commonwealth  of  Pennsylvania  in  general  Convention  assembled 
Have  araented  to,  and  ratified,  and  by  these  presents  Do  in  the  Name 
and  by  the  authority  of  the  same  People,  and  for  ourselves,  assent  to, 
and  ratif!y  the  foregoing  Constitution  for  the  United  States  of  America. 
Done  in  Convention  at  Philadelphia  the  twelfth  day  of  December  in 
the  year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  seven  and 
of  the  Independence  of  the  United  States  of  America  the  twelfth.  In 
witness  whereof  we  have  hereunto  subscribed  our  Names. 

Frederick  Auocstus  Muhlenbero  President 


'  Reprinted  frm  Documentor]/  Bittwr^  0/  tU  CoM({t«tt<m,  VoL  II  (18M), 
pp.  44-45. 


644     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


Jtfi  Allison 
Jonathan  Robibts 
John  RiCHABoe 
Jamb  Morris 
TiHOTHT  Pickering 
Bknj"  Elliot— 
Stcphxn  Ballot 
Joseph  Horsphu) 
David  Dashlbb 
WlLUAM  Wa«ON 
John  Botd 
Tho  Scott 
John  Nkvill 

jABPn  TSATB. 

HiN^  Slaolx 
Thomas  Campbili. 
Thomas  Habtlxt 
David  Obub 
John  Black 
bxnjamin  pxdan 
John  Abndt 
WiLLUM  Gibbons 
Richard  Downing 
Attest  Jamxs  Campbell  Secretary 


Thomas  Chetn: 
John  Hamnum 
Stephbn  Chambibs 
Robert  Coleman 
Sebastun  Orapp 
John  Hublet 
Samuel  Ashmead 
Enoch  Edwards 
Henrt  Wynkoop 
John  Babcljit 
Tho"  Yabdlet 
Abraham  Stoot 
Thomas  Bull 
Anthont  Wayne 
Qborge  Latimer 
Benj**  Rush 
Hn^ARY  Baker 
James  Wilson 
Thomas  M*^Kean 
W  Macphsrson 
John  Hunn 
Qboroe  Okay 


Stats  or  New  Jersey^ 

In  Convention  of  tlie  SMe  of  New  Jereey. 

Whereas  a  convention  of  Delegates  from  the  followHig  Stirtes, 
Vis*  New  Hampdiire,  Maasachusetts,  Connecticut,  New  York,  I<ew 
Jersey,  Pennsylvania,  Delaware,  Maryland,  VirginU,  North  Carolms, 
South  CaroUna  and  Georgia,  met  at  PhiUdelphia  for  the  purpo^  of 
deUherating  on,  and  forming  a  constitution  for  tj«  United  Stat«  of 
America,  finished  their  Session  on  the  seventeenth  day  of  September 
last  and  reported  to  Congress  the  form  which  they  had  agreed  upon,  in 

the  words  following,  Viz'—    •    •    ■  .  ^^.    ,        ,  a-^*-™i«,i 

And  Whereas  Congress  on  the  twenty  eighth  day  of  September 
last  unanimously  did  resolve  "  that  the  said  report  with  the  Resolu- 
tions and  letter  accompanying  the  same,  be  transmitted  to  the  sev 

.Reprinted  from  Documentmry  BMofy  o/  «»«  C^ituti^,  Vol.  U  (18»4), 
pp.  40,  61-64. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      648 

era!  LegiilaturM,  in  order  to  be  mibmitted  to  a  convention  of  Dele- 
gates, ehown  in  each  State  by  the  People  thereof,  in  conformity 
to  the  BeaoWea  of  the  convention  made  and  provided  in   that 


And  Whereas  the  Legielatore  of  this  State  did  on  the  twenty  ninth 
day  of  October  last  Resolve  in  the  words  following,  Viz*—"  Resolved 
nnanimoTuly,  That  it  be  recommended  to  such  of  the  Inhabitants  of 
this  State  as  are  entitled  to  vote  for  Repreientatives  in  Oeneral  As- 
sembly, to  meet  in  theit  respective  counties  on  the  fourth  Tuesday  in 
November  next,  at  the  several  places  fixed  by  law  for  holding  the  an- 
nual elections,  to  choose  three  suitable  persons  to  serve  as  Delegates 
from  each  County  in  a  State  Convention,  for  the  purposes  herein 
before-mentioned,  and  that  the  same  be  conducted  agreeably  to  the 
mode,  and  conformably  with  the  Rules  and  Regulations  prescribed 
for  conducting  such  Elsetions." 

Resolved  unsnimonsly.  That  the  Persons  so  Elected  to  serve  in 
State  Convention,  do  assemble  and  meet  together  on  the  second  Tues- 
day in  December  next,  at  Trenton,  in  the  County  of  Hunterdon,  then 
and  there  to  take  into  Consideration  Hie  aforesaid  C<»stitntion ;  and 
if  approved  of  by  them,  finally  to  Ratify  the  same  in  behalf  and  on 
the  part  of  this  State;  and  mske  Report  thereof  to  the  United  States 
in  Congress  assembled,  in  Conformity  with  the  Resolutions  thereto 
annexed." 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Sheriffs  of  the  respective  Counties  of  thu 
State  shall  be,  and  they  are  hereby  required  to  give  as  timely  Notice 
as  may  be,  by  Advwrtisemente  to  the  People  of  their  Counties  of 
the  time,  place  and  Purpose  of  holding  Elections  as  aforesaid." 

And  Whereas  the  L(«i>l«ture  of  this  State  did  also  on  the  first 
day  of  November  last  make  and  pass  the  following  Act,  Via'—"  An 
Act  to  authorize  the  People  of  this  State  to  meet  in  Convention,  delib- 
erate upon,  agree  to,  and  ratify  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States, 
proposed  by  the  late  General  Convention.  Be  it  Enacted  by  the 
Council  and  General  Assembly  of  this  State,  and  it  is  hereby  enacted 
by  the  Authorify  of  the  same,  That  it  shall  and  may  be  lawful  for 
the  People  thereof,  by  their  Delegates,  to  meet  in  Convention,  to  delib- 
erate upon,  and,  if  approved  of  by  them,  to  ratify  the  Constitution  for 
the  United  States,  proposed  by  the  General  Convention,  held  at  Phila- 
delphia, and  every  Act,  matter  and  clause  therein  contained,  conform- 
ably to  the  Resolutions  of  the  Legislature,  passed  the  twenty  ninth  day 
of  October,  Seventeen  hundred  and  eighty  seven,  any  Law,  Usage  or 
Custom  to  the  contrary  in  any  wise  notwithstanding." 


646     DBBATB8  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Now  b«  it  known  that  we  the  Delegttee  of  the  State  of  New-Jemjr 
ehoeen  by  the  People  thereof  for  the  purpoeee  aforeeaid  having  ma- 
turely deliberated  on,  and  conddered  the  aforeeaid  propoaed  Coneti- 
tution,  do  hereby  for  and  on  the  behalf  of  the  People  of  the  aaid  State 
of  New Jeriey  agree  to,  ratify  and  confirm  the  same  and  every  part 

thereof. 

Done  in  Conrention  by  the  tinanimoua  eonaent  of  the  membera 
preeent,  thia  eighteenth  day  of  December  in  the  year  of  our  Lord  one 
thouMmd  eeven  hundred  and  eighty  leren,  and  of  the  Independence 
of  the  United  Statea  of  America  the  twelfth.— In  Witneea  whereof  we 
have  hereunto  lubacribed  our  namea. 

Note,  Before  the  aigning  hereof,  the  following  worda,  via,  "Ceeaiwi 
of"  were  intarlined  between  the  fifteenth  and  aixteenth  linee  on  tha 

aecond  aheet.  _     . , 

JoHK  SnviNa  Prendent— 

and  Delegate  from  the  County  of  Hunterdon 
rjOHN  Fbx 

County  of  Bergen \  Prm  Zabbiskii 

[CosNiucs  HxmnoK 

rjoHK  Chitwood 

jlgiex -J  Samuil  Hay 

[  David  CnAint 

rjoHK  Ndlbok 
Middlesex -I  John  Biattt 

I  BCNJAXIK  MANMINa 
(  EUSHA  Lawkekoc 

Monmouth <  Samotl  Bbkksb 

I  WauAH  Crawtohd 

fju*  WrrHiBSPOON 

Somersett \  Jacob  R  Habdbnbiboh 

I  Fred:  Fbxlinohutben 

r  Thomas  Betm(XJ>b 

Burlington •!  G»»-  Andebsow 

[Joshua  M.  Wallaci 

(bp  howels 

Gloucester \  And*  Hcnteb 

[Benjamin  WHrrAtL 

JWhitten  Cbipp8 
Salem -j  £DKxnn>  Wethebbt 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     647 

(JmmM  Hamd 

Conatjr  of  Cape-Maj J  JounuAH  Eloudoi 

[Matthiw  Wkilloin 

f  David  Bbiablkt 
Huntordoa jJorauA  Cowhom 

rWlLUAX  WlNDH 

Morria J  Wiluam  Woodhull 

[  Joiur  Jacob  Faxsoh 

TDav"*  Poma 

Camb«rland J  Jokatram  Bowiw 

[Eu  Bum 


Sonez 

AttMt    Sak''  W.  Stockton  Sac'. 


'Koamn  Oodiv 
Tbom'  Andbhok 
Bob*  Hoops 


State  or  Giobou* 

In  ConvtnUon;  Wedneiday,  January  the  second,  one  th»uand  teven 
hmndred  and  eighty  eight: 

To  all  to  vhom  thete  Preiente  ihati  come,  Oreeting. 
7  Whereu  die  form  of  »  Conititntion  for  the  Oovemment  of  the 
^  United  States  of  America,  waa,  on  the  seventeenth  day  of  September, 
g  one  thousand  seven  hondred  and  eighty-seven,  agreed  npon  and  re- 
h  ported  to  Congren  by  the  Deputies  of  the  said  United  States  con- 
^vened  in  PhQadelphia;  which  said  Constitution  is  written  in  the 
I  words  following,  to  wit ;    .    .    . 

£,  And  Whereas  the  United  States  in  Congress  aasembled  did,  on 
the  twenty-ei^th  day  of  September,  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and 
eighty-seven.  Resolve,  unanimously.  That  the  said  Report,  with  the 
resolutions  and  letter  accompanying  the  same,  be  transmitted  to  the 
several  Legislatures,  in  order  to  be  submitted  to  a  Convention  oi 
Delegates  chosen  in  each  State  by  the  People  thereof,  in  conformity  to 
the  Resolves  of  the  Convention  made  and  provided  in  that  case. 

And  Whereas  the  Legislature  of  the  State  of  Georgia  did,  on  the 
twenty-sixth  day  of  October,  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty- 
seven,  in  pursuance  of  the  above  recited  resolution  of  Congress, 

'Reprinted  from  Documentary  Bittory  of  th»  Con$titvtioH,  Vol.  'T  (ISM), 
pp.  eS-SS,  88-84. 


648     DEBATB8  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

BaMlTc,  That  *  eonvratioii  bt  elected  on  the  da^  of  the  neit  Otn- 
enl  Eleetkm,  and  in  the  Mme  tunuu  m  repreeentatiTee  are  elected ; 
and  that  the  laid  ConTentton  coiuiit  of  not  more  than  three  membere 
from  each  County.  And  that  the  uid  Conrention  ihoold  meet  l 
Aufftuta,  on  the  fourth  Tueedajr  in  December  then  next,  and  ai  eoon 
thereafter  ae  convenient,  proceed  to  consider  the  laid  Report,  letter 
and  reeolutiona,  and  to  adopt  or  reject  any  part  or  the  whole  thereof. 
Now  Know  Ye,  That  We,  the  Delegates  of  the  People  of  the  SUte 
of  Georgia  in  Cmtvention  met,  pursuant  to  the  Resolutions  of  tiie 
Legislature  aforesaid,  having  ti^en  into  our  serious  e<ms{deration  the 
said  Constitution,  Have  assented  to,  ratified  and  adopted,  and  by 
these  preeents  DO,  in  virtue  of  the  powers  and  authority  to  Us  given 
by  the  People  of  the  said  SUte  for  that  purpoee,  for,  and  in  behalf 
of  ourselves  and  our  Constituents,  fully  and  entirely  assent  to,  ratify 
and  adopt  the  said  Constitution. 

Done  in  Convention,  at  Augusta  in  the  said  State,  on  the  sec- 
ond Jay  of  Januaiy,  in  the  year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  seven 
hundred  and  ei^ty  eight,  and  of  the  Independence  of  the  United 
States  the  twelfth.  In  Witness  whereof  we  have  hereunto  sub- 
Bcribeu  our  names. 

Jom  WniAT.  President 

and  Delegate  for  the  County  of  Richmond. 
W:  Stsphins 

JOSBPB  H*II1IMH*1I 

b^  JcNSDf  8  Davh 
K  N  Bbowmson 
r  Edw'^  TwLfAiM 
M  H.  Todd 
I  WiluucFbw 


•Effingham 
■  Burke 


g)  Gbo  Matbxwb 

Q   Fixm"  SULUVAH 

°  John  Kino 
VJamis.  Powill 
I  John  Elliott 
i  Jahxs  Maxwxll 
^Oh>:Hakdlst. 

Chbistophxb  HnxiBT 

J:  Mason. 


Chatham 


.Richmond 


Wilkes 

■  Liberty 

Glynn 


C0N8TITUTI0K,  RATIFICATION,  AMINDIIENTS     649 


Bbnbt  Ououn 
Jajcm  SiAsaon 
Jacob  Wnp 

jAmlBWIM 
JORX  BUTHIBfOBD 

Bos*  CnotncAi 
Thomas  Damiill 

BMlDDLITOK 


CAmdea 


j-WuhiDgtoB 


OfMM 


Stats  or  Comntcnctrr  * 
In  lk«  N»mt  of  the  Peoplt  of  iht  8tai$  of  ConneeUeut. 

"Wt  the  DclegstM  of  the  People  of  nH  State  in  general  Convention 
aaaembled,  pnrraant  to  an  Act  of  the  Leffialatnre  in  October  lait,  Have 
aMented  to  and  ratified,  and  by  theae  preeenta  do  aoent  to,  ratify  and 
adopt  the  Constitution,  reported  bj  the  Convention  of  Oelogatea  in 
Philadelphia,  on  the  17**  daj  of  September  AD.  1787.  for  the  United 
States  of  Ameriea. 

Done  in  Convention  thia  9**  daj  of  January  AD.  1788.  In  witne».« 
whereof  we  have  hereunto  set  our  hands. 


Katthbw  Gsiswolo  President: 

JsBs"  Waoswobtb 

JsasB  Boot 

Isaac  Lbs 

Sblah  Heabv 

Zbbulok  Peck  ju' 

EusHA  PrrsiM 

EbASTUS  WoiiOOTT 

John  Watson 
John  TsiAOvrsx 
WiLLiAU  Jddd 
Joseph  Mosilt 
Wait  Goodbioh 
John  Ccbtbs 
Asa  Babns 

Stephen  Mix  Mitchell 
John  Chebteb 
Oiiiv  Ellswobtr 


BOOBB  Nbwbbbbt 
Boon  Shbuian 

PmPONT    EOWAEM 

Samuel  Beach 
Daniel  Houbook 
John  Holbbook 
Gideon  BucKiNaHAM 
Lewis  Mallet  J> 
Joseph  Hopkins 
John  Welton 
Hum"  Law 
Amasa  Leabned 
Sam*-  Huntinoton 
Jed  Huntinoton 
Isaac  HuNTmoroN 
Robert  Bobbins, 
Dan'-*'  Foot 


'Reprinted  from  Doeumentwrp  Bittory  of  the  ContUtution,  Vol.  n  (1894), 
)>p.  87-89. 


650 


DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


Eu  Htdb 

Joseph  Woodbridoi 
Sttphin  Bnxmas 
Andbew  Lee 
William  Notes 
Joshua  Raymond  Jun' 
Jeb°  Halset 
Wheeleb  Coit 
Ch^^bleb  Phelps 
Nathaniel  Minor 
Jonathan  Stubqes 
Thaodeus  Burr 

EUSHA  WniTTELSEy 

Joseph  Moss  White 

Amos  Mead 

Jabez  Fitch 

Nehemiah  2«!ardslbt 

James  Potter 

John  Chandler 

John  Beach 

Hez°  Rogers 

Lem^  Sanfobd 

William  Heron 

Philip  Burr  Bradley 

Nathan  Dauchy 

James  Davenport 

John  Davenport  Jun^ 
W"  Sam''  Johnson 
EusHA  Mills 
Eleph^  Dyer 
Jed^  Eldbbkin 
Simeon  Smith 
Hendrick  Dow 
Seth  Paine 
Asa  Witter 
Moses  Cleaveland 
Sampson  Howe 
Will"  Danielson 
W  Williams 
James  Bradford 
Joshua  Dunlop 
Daniel  Learned 


Mosis  Campbell 
Benjamin  Dow 
Oliveb  Wolcott 
j^ediah  Stbong 
MosES  HawliEY 
Chablxs  Bubball 
Nathan  Hale 
Daniel  Miles 
Asaph  Hall 
Isaac  Burnhau 
John  Wilder 
Mark  Prindle 
Jedidiab  Hubbel 
Aabdn  Austin 
Samuel  Canfield 
Daniel  Evebitt 
Hez:  Fitch 
Joshua  Pobteb 

Benj"  Hinman 

Epafhras  Sheldon 

Eleazeb  Curtiss 

John  WmTTLi-.-EY 

Dan''  Nath''  Brinsmadb 

Thomas  Fenn 

David  Smith 

Robert  M*^Cane 

Daniel  Sherman 

Samuel  Orton 

Asher  Milleb 

Sam''  H.  Parsons 

Eben"  White 

Hez^  Goodrich 

Dyab  Throop 

Jabez  Chapman 

COBNELIUS  HiGGINS 

Hezekiah  Brainerd 
Theophilus  Morgan 
Hez°  Lane 
William  Hart 
Sam"*  Shipman 
Jeremuh  West 
Samuel  Chapman 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      651 

ICBABOD  WaBMER  IsaAC  FoOT 

Samukl  Cabtxb  Abijah  Sessions 

Jerbmuh  BiPLir  Caleb  Holt 

Epbkaih  Boot  Sktb  Cbockxb 
John  Phelps 

State  of  Connecticut,  as.  Hartford  January  ninth.  Anno  Domini  one 
thousand,  seven  hundred  and  eighty  eight. 

The  foregoing  Ratification  was  agreed  to,  and  signed  as  above,  by  one 
hundred  and  twenty  eight,  and  dissented  to  by  forty  Delegate  in  Con- 
vention, which  is  a  Majority  of  eighty  eight. 

Certified  by  Matthew  Qbiswold  President. 
Teste  Jedidiah  Stbono  Secretary — 

State  or  Massachusetts  * 

In  Convention  of  t\e  deUgatet  of  fke  People  of  ike  Commonwealth  of 
Maeiachusetts  February  &^  1788 

The  Convention  have  impartiaUy  discussed,  ft  fully  considered  the 
Constitution  for  the  United  States  of  America,  reported  to  Congress 
by  the  Convention  of  Delegates  from  the  United  States  of  America, 
&  submitted  to  us  by  a  resolution  of  the  General  Court  of  the  said 
Commonwealth,  passed  the  twenty  fifth  day  of  October  last  past,  ft 
acknowledging  with  grateful  hearts,  the  goodness  of  the  Supreme 
Ruler  of  the  Universe  in  affording  the  People  of  the  United  States  in 
the  course  of  his  providence  an  opportunity  deliberately  ft  peaceably 
without  fraud  or  surprize  of  entering  into  an  explicit  ft  solemn  Com- 
pact with  each  other  by  assenting  to  ft  ratifying  a  New  Constitution 
in  order  to  form  a  more  perfect  Union,  establish  Justice,  insure 
Domestic  tranquillity,  provide  for  the  common  defence,  promote  the 
general  welfare  ft  secure  the  blessings  of  Liberty  to  themselves  ft  their 
posterity ;  Do  in  the  name  ft  in  behalf  of  the  People  of  the  Common- 
wealth of  Massachusetts  assent  to  ft  ratify  the  said  Constitution  for 
the  United  States  of  America. 

And  as  it  is  the  opinion  of  this  Convention  that  certain  amend- 
ments ft  alterations  in  the  said  Constitution  would  remove  the  fears 
ft  quiet  the  apprehensions  of  many  of  the  good  people  of  this  Com- 
monwealth ft  more  effectually  guard  against  an  undue  administration 
of  the  Federal  Gk)vemment,  The  Convention  do  therefore  recommend 

'  Reprinted  from  Documentory  BUtory  of  tKt  Con$titution,  VoL  11  (1S94), 
pp.  83-M. 


652     DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEKAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 
that  the  foUowing  alterations  &  provisions  be  introduced  into  the 
said  Constitution.  ^»^„i« 

First.  That  it  be  explicitly  declared  that  dl  P'*^*"  ;»«*  «L^ 
delegated  by  the  aforesaid  Constitution  are  reserved  to  the  several 
States  to  be  by  them  exercised.  *v-^„  *i.„„ 

Secondly,  That  there  shaU  be  one  representative  to  ^^J^  t^^'^^  *;°^- 
^d  per;ons  according  to  the  Census  mentioned  in  the  ConsUtution 
untU  the  whole  number  of  the  Bep««entatives  amounts  to  Two 

rwX^'  That  Congress  do  not  exercise  the  powers  vested  in  them 
by  the    ourth  Section  of  the  first  article,  but  in  cases  when  a  State 
sLl  neglect  or  refuse  to  make  the  regulations  therein  mentioned  or 
shall  mLe  regulations  subversive  of  the  rights  of  the  Peop  e  to  a 
f^&  equal  re^entation  in  Congress  agreeably  to  the  Constitution^ 
Zrthly,  That  Congress  do  not  lay  direct  Taxes  but  when  the  Monies 
arising  from  the  Impost  &  Excise  are  insufficient  for  the  publick  exi- 
SS  nor  then  uxltil  Congress  shall  have  first  made  a  requisition 
Tpon  the  States  to  assess  levy  &  pay  their  respective  Vr<>^^^^^ 
such  Requisition  agreeably  to  the  Census  fixed  m  J^«  ""^  Co°^i^^^ 
lion-  in  such  way  &  manner  as  the  Legislature  of  the  States  shaU 
think  best,  &  in  such  case  if  any  State  shaU  neglect  or  refuse  to  pay 
its  proportion  pursuant  to  such  requisition  then  Congress  may  assess 
&  levy  such  State's  proportion  together  with  interest  thereon  at  the 
rate  of  Six  per  cent  per  annum  from  the  time  of  payment  prescribed 

in  such  requiation  .  „     ^     *    ^*\,  ..,«in 

FiftUy,  That  Congress  erect  no  Company  of  Merchants  with  exclu- 
sive advantages  of  commerce.  v  i.  v.-.. 
Sixthly,  That  no  person  shall  be  tried  for  any  Crime  by  which  he 
may  incur  an  infamous  punishment  or  loss  of  Uf e  until  he  be  first  m- 
dieted  by  a  Grand  Jury,  except  in  such  cases  as  may  arise  in  the 
Government  &  regulation  of  the  Land  &  Naval  forces 
Seventhly,  The  Supreme  Judicial  Federal  Court  shaU  have  no  jui    - 
diction  of  Causes  between  Citizens  of  different  States  «nkss  the  mat- 
ter in  dispute  whether  it  concerns  the  realty  or  personalty  be  of  the 
valu^  of  Lee  thousand  dollars  at  the  least,  nor  shall  the  Federa 
Judicial  Powers  extend  to  any  actions  between  Citizens  of  different 
States  where  the  matter  in  dispute  whether  it  concerns  the  Realty  or 
TZZl  not  of  the  value  of  Fifteen  hundred  dollars  at  the  least. 
SX"i/.  In  civil  actions  between  Citizens  of  di^^-f  S^f^/.^^^ 
issue  of  fact  arising  in  Actions  at  common  law  shaU  be  tried  by  a 
Jurv  if  the  parties  or  either  of  them  request  it. 
Ninthly,  Congress  shall  at  no  time  consent  that  any  person  holding 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      653 

an  ofBce  of  trust  or  profit  tinder  the  United  States  ihall  accept  of  a 
title  of  Nobility  or  any  other  title  or  office  from  any  Bang,  prince  or 
Foreign  State. 

And  the  Convention  do  in  the  name  &  in  behalf  of  the  People  of 
thia  Commonwealth  enjoin  it  upon  their  Bepreaentativet  in  Congrew 
at  all  times  until  the  alterations  &  provisions  aforesaid  have  been  con- 
sidered  agreeably  to  the  Fifth  article  of  the  said  Constitution  to  exert 
all  their  influence  &  use  all  reasonable  &  legal  methods  to  obtain  a 
ratification  of  the  said  alterations  &  provisions  in  such  manner  as 
is  provided  in  the  said  Article. 

And  that  the  United  States  in  Congress  Assembled  may  have  due 
notice  of  the  Assent  &  Ratification  of  the  said  Constitution  by  this 
Convention  it  is,  Resolved,  that  the  Assent  &  Ratification  aforesaid 
be  engrossed  on  Parohment  together  with  the  recommendation  &  in- 
junction aforesaid  &  with  this  resolution  &  that  Hia  Excellency  John 
Hancock  Esq'  President  &  the  Hon""*  William  Gushing  Esq'  Vice 
President,  of  this  Convention  transmit  the  same,  counter-signed  by 
the  Secretary  of  the  Convention  under  their  hands  &  seals  to  the 
United  States  in  Congress  Assembled 

John  Hancock  President 
W**  CusHiNO  Vice  President 

OsOBOB  RiCBABDS  MiNOT,  Secretary. 

Pursuant  to  the  Resolution  aforesaid  W«  the  President  &  Vice 
President  abovenamed  Do  hereby  transmit  to  the  United  SUtes  in 
Congress  Assembled,  the  same  Resolution  with  the  above  Assent  and 
Ratification  of  the  Constitution  aforesaid  for  the  United  States,  And 
the  recommendation  &  injunction  above  specified. 

In  Witness  whereof  We  have  hereunto  set  our  hands  &  Seals  at 
Boston  in  the  Commonwealth  aforesaid  this  Seventh  day  of  February 
Anno  Domini,  one  thousand  Seven  Hundred  &  Eighty  eight,  and  in 
the  Twelfth  year  of  the  Independence  of  the  United  States  of  America. 

John  Hancock  President        [seal.] 
WM  CusHDJO  Vice  President     [seal.] 

State  of  Maryland  • 

In  Convention  of  ike  Delegates  of  the  People  of  tTie  State  of  Mary- 
land 28  April  1788. 
We  the  Delegates  of  the  people  of  the  State  of  Maryland  having  fully 
considered  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  of  America  reported 

pp.  m-Fn^^^  '""^  Documentary  Bittory  of  the  Conttitution,  Vol.  II  (18M), 


654     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

to  ConKTCM  by  the  Convention  of  Deputies  from  the  United  States 
of  ^e^hSd  in  PhUadelphia  on  the  seventeenth  D-yo^  Septe- 
ber  in  the  Year  Seventeen  hundred  and  eigh^-  seven  <>*  which  the 
a^exed  is  a  Copy  and  submitted  to  us  by  a  Resolution  of  the  Gen- 
^  rlmbly  of  Maryland  in  November  Session  Seventeen Ji^ff. 
Id  etr^  seven  do  for  ourselves  and  in  the  Name  and  on  the  behalf 
rf  theCprof  thi  State  assent  to  and  ratify  the  said  Constitution. 


In  Witness  whereof  we  have  hereunto 

RlCH°  Babnis 
Charles  Chilton 
N  Lewis  Sewall 

"W"  TlLSHMAN. 

Donaldson  Ybates 
Isaac  Pebkins 

WnXUU  QSANGEB 

Joseph  Wilkinson 
Chables  Obahahe 
JnO  Chesley  Jun' 
W.  Smith 
G.  R.  Bbown 
J  Pabnhau 
zzph.  tubneb. 
Michael  Jknepeb  Stone 
R.  GoLDSBOBOUGH  junr 
Edw"  Llotd 
John  Stevens 
Gbobos  Gale 
Henbt  Waogaman 
John  Stewabt 
John  Galb 
N"  Hammond 
Daniel  Suluvan 
James  Shaw 
Jos:  Gilpin 
H  Hollinqswobth 
James  Gordon  Hebon 
Sam'-  Evans 
Fielder  Bowie 
OsB  Spbigg 
Attest— W*«  Habwood  Clk. 


subscribed  our  Names— 
Geo:  Platbb  President- 
Benjamin  Hall 
Oeoboe  Digges, 
Nicholas  Cabboll. 
A  C.  Hanson 
Ja.  Tilohman 
Jn®  Sbnet 
James  Holltdat 
WiLUAM  Hemslst 

Peteb  Chaillb 

James  Mabtin 

Willum  MOBBI8 

John  Donb 

Th"  Johnson 

Tho.  S.  Lib 

Richabd  Potts 

Abbaham  Paw 

W  Paca 

J  RiCBABDSCN 

William  Richabdbon 
Matt:  Dbivbb 

PlSTEB  EDMONDSON 

James  M<^enbt 
John  Coulter 
Thomas  Speigo 
John  Stull 
Moses  Rawlings 
Henbt  Shbtock 
Tho*  Cbamphin 
Rich"  Thomas 
Will  Deakins  Jurf 
Ben:  Edwards 


CONSTITUTION,  BATIPICATION,  AMENDMENTS      655 


State  of  South  Cabcmjna^ 


In  Convention  of  the  people  of  the  state  of  South  Carolina  by  their 
Representatives  held  in  the  city  of  Charleston  on  Monday  the  twelfth 
day  of  May  and  continued  by  divers  Adjournments  to  friday  the 
twenty  third  day  of  May  Anno  Domini  One  thousand  seven  hundred 
and  eighty  eight,  and  in  the  twelfth  Year  of  the  Independence  of  the 
United  States  of  America. 

The  Convention  having  maturely  considered  the  constitution  or 
form  of  Government  reported  to  Congress  by  the  Convention  of  Dele- 
gates from  the  United  states  of  America  and  submitted  to  them  by  a 
Resolution  of  the  Legislature  of  this  State  passed  the  seventeenth  and 
eighteenth  days  of  February  last  in  order  to  form  a  more  perfect 
Union,  establish  Justice,  ensure  Domestic  tranquillity,  provide  for  the 
common  defence,  promote  the  general  Welfare  and  secure  the  blessings 
of  Liberty  to  the  people  of  the  said  United  States  and  their  posterity 
DO  in  the  name  and  behalf  uf  the  people  of  this  State  hereby  assent 
to  and  ratify  the  said  Constitution. 

Done  in  Convention  the  twenty  third  day  of  May  in  the  Tear 
of  our  Lord  One  thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  eight, 
and  of  the  Independence  of  the  United  States  of  America  the 
twelfth.—  Thohas  Pikcknet 

President        [seal.] 


Attest 

John  Sandford  Dart 
Secretary 


[seal.] 


And  Whereas  it  is  essential  to  the  preservation  of  the  rights  re- 
served to  the  8«!veral  states,  and  the  freedom  of  the  people  under  the 
operations  of  a  Oeneral  government  that  the  right  of  prescribing 
the  manner  time  and  places  of  holding  the  Elections  to  the  Federal 
Legislature,  should  be  for  ever  inseperably  annexed  to  the  sovereignty 
of  the  several  states.  This  convention  doth  declare  that  the  same 
ought  to  remain  to  all  posterity  a  perpetual  and  fundamental  right  in 
the  local,  exclusive  of  the  interference  of  the  Oeneral  Govemm 
except  in  cases  where  the  Legislatures  of  the  States,  shall  refuse 
neglect  to  perform  and  fulfil  the  same  according  to  the  tenor  of  u>. 
said  Constitution. 


'  Reprinted  from  Documentary  Bittorjf  of  the  Conttitution,  Vol.  II  (1894), 
pp.  138-140. 


656     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

This  Convention  doth  alw  declare  that  no  Section  or  paragraph 
of  the  Mid  Constitution  warrant,  a  Conrtruction  that  the  •tates  do 
not  retain  every  power  not  expressly  relinquished  by  them  and  verted 
in  the  General  Government  of  the  Union. 

Resolved  that  the  general  Government  of  the  United  States  ought 
never  to  impose  direct  taxes,  but  where  the  monies  arising  from  the 
duties,  imposts  and  excise  are  insufficient  for  the  public  exigencies 
nor  then  untU  Congress  shaU  have  made  a  requisition  upon  the  states 
to  Assess  levy  and  pay  their  respective  proportions  of  such  requisi- 
tions And  in  case  any  state  shall  neglect  or  refuse  to  pay  it.  propor- 
tion  pursuant  to  such  requisition  then  Congress  may  asses,  and  levy 
TOch  state',  proportion  together  with  Interest  thereon  at  the  rate  of 
mx  per  centum  per  annum  from  the  time  of  payment  prescribed  by 

■uch  requisition —  _i.*  ♦«  w. 

Resolved  that  the  third  section  of  the  Sixth  Article  ought  to  be 
amended  by  inserting  the  word  "  other  "  between  the  word,     no 

and "  religious "  „       ^  j  •      ♦ 

Resolved  that  it  be  a  standing  inrtruction  to  all  such  delegates  as 
may  hereafter  be  elected  to  represent  this  State  in  the  general  Gov- 
emment  to  exert  their  utmost  abilities  and  influence  to  efTect  an  Al- 
teration of  tiie  Constitution  conformably  to  the  foregoing  Beso- 

°  °°*Done  in  Convention  the  twenty  third  day  of  May  in  the  year 
of  our  Lord  One  thousand  Seven  hundred  and  eighty  eight  and 
of  the  Independence  of  the  United  States  of  America  tiie 
twelfth  Thomas  PiNCKNKT 

President        [seal.] 


Attert 

John  Sanfohd  Dabt 
Secretary 


[seal.] 


State  of  New  Hampshibk.* 
In  Convention  of  the  Delegates  of  the  People  of  the 
[s.^.]     State  of  New-Hampshire  June  the  Twenty  first  1788. 

The  Convention  haveing  Impartially  discussed  and  fuUy  con- 

Bidered  the  Constitution  for  the  United  States  of  America,  reported 

■Reprinted  from  Documentary  Hittory  of  the  Conttitution,  Vol.  II  (1894). 

^^-  l\*wm'^  observed  that  New  Hampshire  was. the  """i  SUte  to  o^er  of  tun. 
to  ratify   the   Constitution,   which   thereupon,   in  ^'^°^^^^.^^^,.^^^^f%^^^. 

Carolina,  and  New  Hampshire. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      657 

to  CongNH  by  the  Conyention  of  Delegate!  from  the  United  Statei 
of  America  &  aubmitted  to  aa  by  a  Reaolution  of  the  General  Court  of 
aaid  State  paaaed  the  fourteenth  Day  of  December  laat  paat  and 
acknowledgeing  with  gratefull  Hearta  the  goodneaa  of  the  Supreme 
mler  of  the  Univerae  in  affording  the  People  of  the  United  States  in 
the  Courae  of  hia  Providence  an  Opportunity,  deliberately  ft  peace- 
ably without  fraud  or  aurprise  of  entering  into  an  Explicit  and 
aolemn  compact  with  each  other  by  asaenting  to  ft  ratifying  a  new 
Conatitution,  in  Order  to  form  a  more  perfect  Union,  eatablish  Jus- 
tice, Insure  domestick  Tranquility,  provide  for  the  common  defence, 
promote  the  general  welfare  and  aecure  the  Bleaaings  of  Liberty  to 
themaelvea  ft  their  Posterity— Do  In  the  Name  ft  behalf  of  the  Peo- 
ple of  the  State  of  New-Hampshire  aaaent  to  ft  ratify  the  aaid  Con- 
atitution for  the  United  States  of  America.  And  aa  it  is  the  Opinion 
of  this  Convention  that  certain  amendments  ft  alterations  in  the  said 
Constitution  would  remove  the  fears  ft  quiet  the  apprehensions  of 
many  of  the  good  People  of  this  State  ft  more  Effectually  guard 
against  an  undue  Administration  of  the  Federal  Government — The 
Convention  do  therefore  recommend  that  the  following  alterations  ft 
provisions  be  introduced  into  the  said  Constitution. — 
First  That  it  be  Explicitly  declared  that  all  Powers  not  expressly  ft 
particularly  Delegated  by  the  aforesaid  Conatitution  are  reserved  to 
the  several  States  to  be,  by  them  Exercised. — 
Secondly,  That  there  shall  be  one  Bepresentative  to  every  Thirty 
thousand  Persons  according  to  the  Census  mentioned  in  the  Consti- 
tution, untill  the  whole  number  of  Representatives  amount  to  Two 
hundred. — 

Thirdly  That  Congress  do  not  Exercise  the  Powen  vested  in  them, 
by  the  fourth  Section  of  the  first  Article,  but  in  Cases  when  a  State 
shall  neglect  or  refuse  to  make  the  Regulations  therein  mentioned, 
or  shall  make  regulations  Subversive  of  the  rights  of  the  People  to  a 
free  and  equal  Representation  in  Congress.  Nor  shall  Congress  in 
any  Case  make  regulations  contraiy  to  a  free  and  equal  Represen- 
tation.— 

Fourthly  That  Congress  do  not  lay  direct  Taxes  but  when  the  money 
arising  from  Impost,  Excise  and  their  other  resources  are  insufScient 
for  the  Publick  Exigencies ;  nor  then,  untill  Congress  shall  have  first 
made  a  Requisition  upon  the  States,  to  Assess,  Levy,  ft  pay  their  re- 
spective proport*on8,  of  such  requisition  agreeably  to  the  Census  fixed 
in  the  said  Constitution  in  such  way  ft  manner  as  the  Legislature  of 
the  State  shall  think  best  and  in  such  Case  if  any  State  shall  neglect, 
then  Congress  may  Assess  &  Levy  such  States  proportion  together  with 


658     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

the  Intemt  thereon  at  the  rate  of  lix  per  Cent  per  Annum  from  the 
Time  of  payment  preacribed  in  such  requisition- 
Fifthly  That  Congreaa  ihaU  erect  no  Company  of  Merehanta  with  ex- 
clusive advantagea  of  Commerce.—  vs  v  i. 
Sixthly  That  no  Person  shall  be  Tryed  for  any  Cnme  by  wWch  he 
may  incur  an  Infamous  Punishment,  or  loia  of  Life,  untiU  he  first  be 
indicted  by  a  Grand  Jury  except  in  such  Casea  aa  may  arise  in  the 
Government  and  regulation  of  the  Land*  Naval  Forces.— 
Seventhly  All  Common  Uw  Casea  between  Citixena  of  different 
Statea  shall  be  commenced  in  the  Common  Law-Courta  of  the  re- 
•pective  SUtes  &  no  appeal  shall  be  aUowed  to  the  Federal  Court 
iTauch  Cases  unless  the  sum  or  value  of  the  thing  in  Controversy 
■mount  to  three  Thousand  Dollars.- 

Eighthly  In  CivU  Actions  between  Citixena  of  different  States  every 
Issue  of  Fact  arising  in  Actiom  at  Common  Law  shaU  be  Tryed  by 
Jury,  if  the  Parties,  or  either  of  them  request  it— 
Ninthly-Congress  shaU  at  no  Time  consent  that  any  Person  holdmg 
an  Office  of  Trust  or  profit  under  the  United  States  shaU  accept  any 
Title  of  NobiUty  or  any  other  Title  or  Office  from  any  King,  Pnnce, 
or  Foreign  State. — 
Tenth,  .  _  , 

That  no  standing  Army  shall  be  Kept  up  in  time  of  Peace  unless 
with  the  consent  of  three  fourths  of  the  Members  of  each  branch  of 
Congress,  nor  shaU  Soldiers  in  Time  of  Peace  be  quartered  upon  pn- 
vate  Houses  without  the  consent  of  the  Owners.— 

^Congress  shall  make  no  Laws  touching  ReUgion,  or  to  infringe  the 

rights  of  Conscience — 

Twelfth  ,  .         _^  „.  v.™ 

Congress  shall  never  disarm  any  Citizen  unless  such  as  are  or  have 

been  in  Actual  Rebellion.—  .    .  ^    „      ,     j  *i.-„ 

And  the  Convention  Do.  In  the  Name  &  behalf  of  the  People  of  tha 
State  enjoin  it  upon  their  Representatives  m  Congress,  at  all 
Times  untill  the  alterations  and  provisions  aforesaid  have  been 
Considered  agreeably  to  the  fifth  Article  of  the  said  Constitu- 
tion to  exert  aU  their  Influence  &  use  aU  reasonable  &  Legal 
methods  to  obtain  a  ratification  of  the  said  alterations  &  Pro- 
visions, in  such  manner  as  is  provided  in  the  said  article-And 
That  the  United  States  in  Congress  Assembled  may  have  due 
notice  of  the  assent  &  Ratification  of  the  said  Constitution  by 
this  Convention.-It  is  resolved  that  the  Assent  &  Ratification 
aforesaid  be  engrossed  on  Parchment,  together  with  the  Recom- 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     659 

mendation  &  injanction  aforeuid  &  with  this  Besolution — And 
that  John  Sullivan  Eaquin  Preaident  of  Convention,  &  John 
Langdon  Eaquire  Preaident  of  the  State  Tranamit  the  aame 
Coonteraipned  by  the  Secretary  of  Convention  &  the  Secretary 
of  the  State  under  their  haoda  ft  Seala  to  the  United  States  in 
Congress  Assembled. — 

Jn°  Sullivan  preaid*  of  the  Convention 

John  Lanodon  Preaid'  of  State 
By  order 

John  Cauv  Sec'  of  Convention 
Joseph  Peabson  Sec'  of  State 


[8KAL.] 
[flSAL.] 


Stati  op  VnoiNiA* 


Virginia  to  wit 

We  the  Delegates  of  the  People  of  Virginia  duly  elected  in  pur- 
suance of  a  recommendation  from  the  General  Assembly  and  now  met 
in  Convention  having  fully  and  freely  investigated  and  discussed  the 
proceedings  of  the  Foederal  Convention  and  being  prepared  as  well 
as  the  most  mature  deliberation  hath  enabled  us  to  decide  thereon  Do 
in  the  name  and  in  behalf  of  the  People  of  Virginia  declare  and  make 
known  that  the  powers  granted  under  the  Constituti<»i  being  derived 
from  the  People  of  the  United  States  may  be  resumed  "by  them  when- 
soever the  same  shall  be  perverted  to  their  injury  or  oppression  and 
that  every  power  not  granted  thereby  remains  with  them  and  at  their 
will:  that  therefore  no  right  of  any  denomination  can  be  cancelled 
abridged  restrained  or  modified  by  the  Congress  by  the  Senate  or 
House  of  Representatives  acting  in  any  Capacity  by  the  President  or 
any  Department  or  OfScer  of  the  United  States  except  in  those  in- 
stances in  which  power  is  given  by  the  Constitution  for  those  pur- 
poses: ft  that  amon^  other  essential  rights  the  liberty  of  Conscience 
and  of  the  Press  cannot  be  cancelled  abridged  restrained  or  modified 
by  any  authority  of  the  United  States.  With  these  impressions  with 
a  solemn  appeal  to  the  Searcher  of  hearts  for  the  purity  of  our  inten- 
tions and  under  the  conviction  that  whatsoever  imperfections  may 
exist  in  the  Constitution  ought  rather  to  be  examined  in  the  mode 
prescribed  therein  than  to  bring  the  Union  into  danger  by  a  delay  with 
a  hope  of  obtaining  Amendments  previous  to  the  Ratification,  We  the 
said  Delegates  in  the  name  and  in  behalf  of  the  People  of  Virginia  do 

'Reprinted  from  Docummtarjf  Bittory  of  the  Ooiutitution,  Vol.  II  (18M), 
pp.  145-146,  160,  377-385. 


660     DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDBBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

by  thew  pre«nt.  •mnt  to  «d  ratify  the  Coiutitution  "«>mmended 
on  the  KTenteenth  d.y  of  September  one  thon«nd  eeven  hundred  and 
eighty  -even  by  the  Foederal  Convention  for  the  Qovemment  of  the 
United  Sutee  hereby  announcing  to  all  tho«  whom  it  may  concern 
that  the  said  Con«titntion  is  binding  upon  the  said  People  according 
to  an  authentic  Copy  hereto  annexed  in  the  Words  following ;    .    •    • 

Done  in  Convention  this  twenty  Sixth  day  of  June  one 
thousand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  eight 

By  Order  of  the  Convention 

Edm"  P«ot)L1T0»  President  [bbau]    .    •    • 

Virginia  towit:  . 

Subsequent  AmendmenU  agreed  to  in  Convention  as  neceswry  to 
the  proposed  Constitution  of  Government  for  the  United  SUtes, 
recommended  to  the  consideration  of  the  Congress  which  shall  first 
assemble  under  the  said  Constitution  to  be  acted  upon  according  to 
the  mode  prescribed  in  the  fifth  article  thereof: 

Videlicet ; 
That  there  b«  a  Declaration  or  Bill  of  Rights  asserting  and  se- 
curing from  encroachment  the  essential  and  unalienable  Eights  of  the 
People  in  some  such  manner  as  the  following ; 

First,    That  there  are  certain  natural  rights  of  which  men,  when 
they  form  a  social  compact  cannot  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity, 
among  which  are  the  enjoyment  of  life  and  liberty,  with  the  means  of 
acquiring,  possessing  and  protecting  property,  and  pursuing  and  ob- 
taining  happiness  and  safety.    Second.    THaf  all  power  is  naturaUy 
vested  in  and  consequently  derived  from  the  people ;  that  Magistrates, 
therefore,  are  their  trustees  and  agents  and  at  all  times  amenable  to 
them     Third,    That  Government  ought  to  be  instituted  for  the  com- 
mon benefit,  protection  and  security  of  the  People;  and  that  the  doc- 
trine  of  non-resistance  against  arbitrary  power  and  oppression  is 
absurd  slavish,  and  destructive  of  the  good  and  happiness  of  mankind. 
Fourth,    That  no  man  or  set  of  Men  are  entitled  to  exclusive  or  sep- 
erate  public  emoluments  or  privileges  from  the  community,  but  in 
Consideration  of  public  services;  which  not  being  descendible,  neither 
ought  the  ofllces  of  Magistrate,  Legislator  or  Judge,  or  any  other 
public  office  to  be  hereditary.    Fifth,    That  the  legislative,  executive, 
and  judiciary  powers  of  Government  should  be  seperate  and  distinct, 
and  that  the  members  of  the  two  first  may  be  restrained  from  op- 
pression by  feeling  and  participating  the  public  burthens,  they  should^ 
at  fiit  periods  be  reduced  to  a  private  station,  return  into  the  mass  o. 
the  people;  and  the  vacancies  be  supplied  by  certain  and  regular  elec- 
tions; in  which  all  or  any  part  of  the  former  members  to  be  elegible 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     661 

or  ineligible,  u  tht  rnlet  of  the  Coattitution  of  QoTemment,  tad  Um 
Uwi  ■hall  direct  Sixth,  That  eleetiona  of  repreeentetiTee  in  th« 
legislature  oni^t  to  be  free  and  frequent,  and  all  men  having  mf- 
fleient  eridence  of  permanent  eommon  interest  with  and  attachment 
to  the  Commnnitx  ought  to  have  the  right  of  raffrage:  and  no  aid, 
charge,  tax  or  fee  ean  be  let,  rated,  or  levied  upon  the  people  without 
their  own  consent,  or  that  of  their  repreientativM  so  elected,  nor  can 
they  be  bound  by  any  law  to  which  they  have  not  in  like  manner  aa- 
■ented  for  the  public  good.  Seventh,  That  all  power  of  auipend- 
ing  laws  or  the  execution  of  lawa  by  any  authority,  without  the  con- 
tent of  the  representative!  of  the  people  in  the  legidatnre  is  injurious 
to  their  ri^ts,  and  ought  not  to  be  exercised.  Eighth,  That  in  all 
capital  and  criminal  prosecntions,  a  man  hath  a  ri^t  to  demand  the 
cause  and  nature  of  his  accusation,  to  be  confronted  with  the  accusers 
and  witnesses,  to  call  for  evidence  and  be  allowed  counsel  in  hit  favor, 
and  to  a  fair  and  speedy  trial  by  an  impartial  Juiy  of  his  vicinage, 
without  whose  unanimous  consent  be  cannot  be  found  guilty,  (ex> 
cept  in  the  government  of  the  land  and  naval  forces)  nor  can  he  be 
compelled  to  give  evidence  against  himself.  Ninth.  That  no  free- 
man oug^t  to  be  taken,  imprisoned,  or  disseised  of  his  freehdd,  lib- 
erties, privileges  or  franchises,  or  outlawed  or  exiled,  cr  in  any  man- 
ner destroyed  or  deprived  of  his  life,  liberty  or  pro- -rty  but  by  the 
law  of  the  land.  Tenth.  That  eveiy  freeman  rest  lOfhisUberty 
is  entitled  to  a  remedy  to  enquire  into  the  lawfulnt  thereof,  and  to 
remove  the  same,  if  unlawful,  and  that  such  remedy  ought  not  to  be 
denied  nor  delayed.  Eleventh.  That  in  controversies  respecting 
property,  and  in  suits  between  man  and  man,  the  ancient  trial  by 
Jury  is  one  of  the  greatest  Securities  to  the  rights  of  the  people,  and 
ought  to  remain  sacred  and  inviolable.  Twelfth.  That  every  free- 
man ought  to  find  a  certain  remedy  by  recourse  to  the  laws  for  all 
injuries  and  wrongs  he  may  receive  in  his  person,  property  or  char- 
acter. He  ought  to  obtain  right  and  justice  freely  without  sale,  com- 
pleatly  and  without  denial,  promptly  and  without  delay,  and  that  ell 
establishments  or  regulations  coutravening  these  rights,  are  oppreauve 
and  unjust.  Thirteenth,  That  excessive  Bail  ought  not  be  required, 
nor  excessive  fines  imposed,  nor  cruel  and  unusual  punishments  in- 
flicted. Fourteenth,  That  every  freeman  has  a  right  to  be  secure 
from  all  unreasonable  searches  and  sieznres  of  his  person,  his  papers 
and  his  property;  all  warrants,  therefore,  to  search  suspected  places, 
or  sieze  any  freeman,  his  papers  or  property,  without  information 
upon  Oath  (or  affirmation  of  a  person  religiously  scrupulous  of  tak- 
ing an  oath)  of  legal  and  sufficient  cause,  are  grievous  and  oppressive; 


662     DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OP  1797 

and  all  generd  Warrant,  to  warch  auipectad  plac«,  or  to  •PP«»»«°«» 
any  «up«cted  perwn,  without  .pwlally  naminf  or  d««Jbin«  tlw 
place  or  v^noa,  art  dangeroua  and  ought  not  to  be  ranted.  Fifteenth. 
That  the  people  hare  a  right  peaceably  to  a»emble  together  to  con- 
wit  for  the  common  good,  or  to  Inrtnwt  their  RepreaenUt.vee ;  and 
that  every  freeman  haa  a  right  to  petition  or  apply  to  the  legwlature 
for  twire«  of  grierancea.    Sixteenth,  That  the  people  have  a  right  to 
freedom  of  speech,  and  of  writing  and  publuhing  their  S^nt'^^^j 
but  the  freedom  of  -he  preaa  is  one  of  the  great«t  bulwark,  of  liberty 
and  ought  not  to  .«  vioUted.    Seventeenth.  That  the  people  have  a 
right  to  keep  and  bear  arm.,  that  a  weU  regulated  Mihtia  compowd 
of  the  body  of  the  people  trained  to  arm.  i.  the  proper,  natural  and 
Mfc  defence  of  a  free  State.    That  atanding  armie.  in  time  of  peace 
are  dangerou.  to  liberty,  and  therefor,  ought  to  be  •void«i,  aa  far 
a.  the  circumstance,  and  protection  of  the  Community  wiU  admit ;  and 
that  in  all  caw.  the  military  riiould  be  under  rtrict  robcrdination  to 
and  governed  by  the  Civil  power.    Eighteenth,  That  no  Soldier  m 
tim«  of  peace  ought  to  be  quartered  in  any  houae  without  the  conjKint 
of  the  owner,  and  In  time  of  war  In  mich  manner  only  a.  the  law. 
direct.    Nineteenth,  That  any  penwn  rellglouriy  wrupulou.  of  bear- 
ing  arm.  ought  to  be  exempted  upon  payment  of  as  «l'^'J»»«t  »« 
employ  another  to  bear  arm.  in  hi.  .tead.    Twentieth,  That  religion 
or  the  duty  which  we  owe  to  our  Creator,  and  the  manner  of  di^ 
charging  it  can  be  directed  only  by  reaaon  and  conviction,  not 
by    force   or   violence,    and   therefore    aU   men    have   an    equal, 
natural  and  unalienable  right  to  the  free  exerclne  of  religion  ac- 
cording  to  the  dictate,  of  conwlence,  and  that  no  parhcular  re- 
ligioua  .ect  or  »clety  ought  to  be  favored  or  eatabluhed  by  Law 
In  preference  to  othera. 

AmendmenU  to  the  Body  of  the  Comtitution. 

First  That  each  State  In  the  Union  shall  respectively  retain  every 
power  jurisdiction  and  right  which  is  not  by  this  Constitution  dele- 
Rated  to  the  Congress  of  the  United  State,  or  to  the  departments  of 
the  Foederal  Government.  Second,  That  there  shall  be  one  representa- 
tive for  every  thirty  thousand,  according  to  the  Enumeration  or  Cen- 
ma  mentioned  In  the  Constitution,  untU  the  whole  number  of  repre- 
Mutatives  amounts  to  two  hundred;  after  which  that  number  ahaU 
be  continued  or  encreased  a.  the  Congrem  .haU  direct,  upon  the  prin- 
ciples fixed  by  the  Constitution  by  apportioning  the  Reprewntatives 
of  each  State  to  some  greater  number  of  people  from  tune  to  tune  aa 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      663 

popaUtion  enereMM.  Third,  When  CongnM  ahall  Uy  dinet  turn 
or  exeiaM,  they  ehall  immedwtely  i  form  the  Eiecutire  power  of  each 
State  of  the  qnota  of  *ueh  atete  aocording  to  the  Ceneiu  herein  di- 
rected, which  it  propoeerl  to  be  thereby  railed  t  And  if  the  Legielatare 
of  any  State  ahall  paaa  a  law  which  iball  be  effeetnal  for  raiaing  caeh 
quota  at  the  time  required  by  Congreaa,  the  taxea  and  exeiaea  laid  by 
Congreaa  ahall  not  be  eoUeuted,  in  auch  State.  Fourth,  That  the  mem- 
bera  of  the  Senate  and  Houae  of  Repreaentativea  ahall  be  ineligible  to, 
and  incapable  of  holding,  any  civil  office  under  the  authority  of  the 
United  Statea,  during  the  time  for  which  they  ahall  reapeetlTely  be 
elected.  Fifth,  That  tho  Joumab  of  the  proceedingi  of  the  Senate  and 
Houae  of  Repreaentativea  ahall  be  publiahed  at  leaat  once  in  every 
year,  except  auch  parte  thereof  relating  to  treatiea,  alliancea  or  mili- 
tary operationa,  aa  in  their  judgment  require  aecrecy.  Sixth,  That 
a  regular  atatement  and  account  of  the  reeeipta  and  expenditurea  of 
all  public  money  ahall  be  publiahed  at  leaat  once  in  every  year. 
Seventh,  That  no  commercial  treaty  ahall  be  ratified  without  the  con- 
currence of  two  thirda  of  the  whole  number  of  the  membera  of  the 
Senate ;  and  no  Treaty  ceding,  contracting,  reatraining  or  tuapending 
the  ten  I:  ■'  righta  or  claima  of  the  United  Statea,  or  any  of  them 
or  their,  o  jxj  of  their  righta  or  claima  to  flahing  in  the  American 
aeaa,  or  navigating  the  American  rivera  ahall  be  but  in  caaea  of  the 
moat  tirgent  and  extreme  n^eaaity,  nor  ahall  any  auch  treaty  be  rati- 
fied without  the  concurrence  of  three  fourtha  of  the  whole  number 
of  the  membera  of  both  houaea  reapectively.  Eighth,  That  no  naviga- 
tion law,  or  law  r^nlating  Commerce  diall  be  paaaed  without  the 
eonaent  of  two  thirda  of  the  Membera  preaent  in  both  houaea.  Ninth, 
That  no  atanding  army  or  regular  troopa  ahall  be  raiaed  or  kept  up 
in  time  of  peace,  without  the  eonaent  of  two  thirda  of  the  membera 
preaent  in  both  houaea.  Tenth,  That  no  aoldier  ahall  be  inliated  for 
any  longer  term  than  four  yeara,  except  in  time  of  war,  and  then  for  no 
longer  term  than  the  continuance  of  the  war.  Eleventh,  That  each 
State  reapectively  ahall  have  the  pover  to  provide  for  organizing, 
arming  and  diaciplining  it 'a  own  Militia,  whenaoever  Congreaa  ahall 
omit  or  neglect  to  provide  for  the  aame.  That  the  Militia  ahall  not 
be  aubject  to  Martial  law,  except  when  in  actual  aervice  in  time  of 
war,  invaaion,  or  rebellion ;  and  when  not  in  the  actual  aervice  of  the 
United  Statea,  shall  be  aubject  only  to  auch  fines,  penaltiea  and  pun- 
iahmenta  aa  shall  be  directed  or  inflicted  by  the  Uwa  of  ita  own  State. 
Twelfth  That  the  exclusive  power  of  legialation  given  to  Congreaa 
over  the  Foederal  Town  and  ita  adjacent  District  and  other  placea  pur- 
chaaed  or  to  be  purchJiaed  by  Congreaa  of  any  of  the  Statea  ahall  ez- 


664     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


tend  only  to  such  regulations  as  respect  the  police  and  good  govem- 
ment  thereof.  Thirteenth,  That  no  person  shall  be  capable  of  being 
President  of  the  United  States  for  more  than  eight  years  in  any  term 
of  sixteen  years.  Fourteenth  That  the  judicidl  power  of  the  United 
States  shall  be  vested  in  one  supreme  Court,  and  in  such  courts  of 
Admiralty  as  Congress  may  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish 
in  any  of  the  diif erent  States :  The  Judicial  power  shall  extend  to  all 
cases  in  Law  and  Equity  arising  under  treaties  made,  or  which  shall 
be  made  under  the  authority  of  the  United  States ;  to  all  cases  affect- 
ing ambassadors  other  foreign  ministers  and  consuls;  to  all  cases  of 
Admiralty  and  maritime  jurisdiction;  to  controversies  to  which  the 
United  States  shall  be  a  party;  to  controversies  between  two  or 
States,  and  between  parties  claiming  lands  under  the  grants  of  dif- 
ferent States.  In  all  cases  affecting  ambassadors,  other  foreign  min- 
isters and  Consuls,  and  those  in  which  a  State  shall  be  a  party,  the 
supnme  court  shall  have  original  jurisdiction ;  in  all  other  cases  be- 
fore mentioned  the  supreme  Court  shall  have  appellate  jurisdiction  as 
to  matters  of  law  only :  except  in  cases  of  equity,  and  of  admiralty  and 
maritime  jurisdiction,  in  which  the  Supreme  Court  shall  have  appel- 
late jurisdiction  both  as  to  law  and  fact,  with  such  exceptions  and 
nnder  such  regulations  as  the  Congress  shall  make.  But  the  judicial 
power  of  the  United  States  shall  extend  to  no  case  where  the  cause 
of  action  shall  have  originated  before  the  ratification  of  this  Constitu- 
tion; except  in  disputes  between  States  about  their  Territory,  dis- 
putes between  persons  claiming  lands  under  the  grants  of  different 
States,  and  suits  for  debts  due  to  the  United  States.  Fifteenth,  That 
in  criminal  prosecutions  no  man  shall  be  restrained  in  the  exercise  of 
the  usual  and  accustomed  right  of  challenging  or  excepting  to  the 
Jury.  Sixteenth,  That  Congress  shall  not  alter,  modify  or  interfere 
in  the  times,  places,  or  manner  of  holding  elections  for  Senators  and 
Representatives  or  either  of  them,  except  when  the  legislature  of 
any  State  shall  neglect,  refuse  or  be  disabled  by  invasion  or  rebellion 
to  prescribe  the  same.  Seventeenth,  That  those  clauses  which  declare 
that  Congress  shall  not  exercise  certain  powers  be  not  interpreted  in 
any  manner  whatsoever  to  extend  the  powers  of  Congress.  Bat  that 
they  may  be  construed  either  as  making  exceptions  to  the  specified 
powers  where  this  shall  be  the  case,  or  otherwise  as  inserted  merely 
for  greater  caution.  Eighteenth,  That  the  laws  ascertaining  the  com- 
pensation to  Senators  and  Representatives  for  their  services  be  post- 
poned in  their  operation,  until  after  the  election  of  Representatives 
immediately  succeeding  the  passing  thereof;  that  excepted,  which 
shall  first  be  passed  on  the  Subject.    Nineteenth,  That  some  Tribunal 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      665 

other  than  the  Senate  be  provided  for  trying  impeachmenta  of  Sen- 
ators. Twentieth,  That  th«>  Salary  of  a  Judge  shaU  not  be  encreased 
or  dunmwhcd  during  hu  .ontiruance  in  OflSce,  otherwiae  than  by 
general  regulationa  of  Salary  which  may  take  place  on  a  revision  of 
the  subject  at  stated  periods  of  not  leas  than  seven  years  to  commence 
from  the  tune  such  Salaries  shaU  be  first  ascertained  by  Congress. 
And  the  Convention  do,  in  the  name  and  behalf  of  the  People  of  this 
Commonwealth  enjoin  it  upon  their  Representatives  in  Congress  to 
exert  all  their  influence  and  use  aU  reasonable  and  legal  methods  to 
obtain  a  Ratification  of  the  foregoing  alterations  and  provisions  in 
the  manner  provided  by  the  fifth  article  of  the  said  Constitntion  •  and 
m  aU  Congressional  laws  to  be  passed  in  the  mean  time,  to  conform 
to  the  spirit  of  those  Amendments  as  far  as  the  said  Constitution  will 
admit. 

Done  in  Convention  this  twenty  seventh  day  of  June  in  the 
year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and  ei^ty  eight. 
By  order  of  the  Convention. 

Edm"  Pbndleton  President  [seal.] 

State  op  New  York  * 

We  the  Delegates  of  the  People  of  the  State  of  New  York,  duly 
elected  and  Met  in  Convention,  having  maturely  considered  the  Con- 
stitution for  the  United  Stetes  of  America,  agreed  to  on  the  seven- 
teenth day  of  September,  in  the  year  One  thousand  Seven  hundred 
and  Eighty  seven,  by  the  Convention  then  assembled  at  Philadelphia 
in  the  Common-wealth  of  Pennsylvania  (a  Copy  whereof  precedes 
these  presents)  and  having  also  seriously  and  deliberately  considered 
the  present  situation  of  the  United  States,  Do  declare  and  make  known. 

That  aU  Power  is  originally  vested  in  and  consequently  derived 
from  the  People,  and  that  Government  is  instituted  by  them  for  their 
common  Interest  Protection  and  Security. 

That  the  enjoyment  of  Life,  Liberty  and  the  pursuit  of  Happiness 
are  essential  rights  which  eveiy  Government  ought  to  respect  and 
preserve. 

That  the  Powers  of  Government  may  be  reassumed  by  the  Peo- 
ple, whensoever  it  shall  become  necessary  to  their  Happiness;  that 
every  Power,  Jurisdiction  and  right,  which  is  not  by  the  said  Consti- 
tution clearly   delegated   to   the   Congress   c'*  the   United   States 
or  the  departments  of  the  Government  thereof,  remains  to  the  People 

pp.  im03.°****  ''^'""  Documentary  Bittory  of  the  Oonititution,  Vol.  11  (1894). 


666     DEBATES  Hi  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

of  the  several  States,  or  to  their  respective  State  Oovemments  to 
whom  they  may  have  granted  the  same;  And  that  those  Clauses  in 
the  said  Constitation,  which  declare,  that  Congress  shall  not  have  or 
exercise  certain  Powers,  do  not  imply  that  Congress  is  entitled  to 
any  Powers  not  given  by  the  said  Constitation ;  but  such  Clauses  are 
to  be  construed  either  as  exceptions  to  certain  specified  Powers,  or 
as  inserted  merely  for  greater  Caution. 

That  the  People  have  au  equal,  natural  and  unalienable  right, 
freely  and  peaceably  to  Exercise  their  Religion  according  to  the 
dictates  of  Conscience,  and  that  no  Religious  Sect  or  Society  ought 
to  be  favoured  or  established  by  Law  in  preference  of  others. 

That  the  People  have  a  right  to  keep  and  bear  Arms;  that  a  well 
regulated  Militia,  including  the  body  of  the  People  capable  of  bearing 
Arms,  is  the  proper,  natural  and  safe  defence  of  a  free  State ; 

That  the  Militia  should  not  be  subject  to  Martial  Law  accept  in 
time  of  War,  'rJ'ibellion  or  Insurrection. 

That  standing  Armies  in  time  of  Peace  are  dangerous  to  Liberty, 
and  ought  not  to  be  kept  up,  except  in  Cases  of  necessity;  and  that 
at  all  times,  the  Military  should  be  under  strict  Subordination  to  the 
civil  Power, 

That  in  time  of  Peace  no  Soldier  ought  to  be  quartered  in  any 
House  without  the  consent  of  the  Owner,,  and  in  time  of  War  only  by 
the  Civil  Magistrate  in  such  manner  as  the  Laws  may  direct. 

That  no  Person  ought  to  be  taken  imprisoned,  or  disseised  of  his 
freehold,  or  be  exiled  or  deprived  of  his  Privileges,  Franchises,  Life, 
Liberty  or  Property  but  by  due  process  of  Law. 

That  no  Person  ought  to  be  put  twice  in  Jeopardy  of  Life  or  Limb 
for  one  and  the  same  Offence,  nor,  unless  in  case  of  impeachment,  be 
punished  more  than  once  for  the  same  Offence. 

That  every  Person  restrained  of  his  Liberty  is  entitled  to  an 
enquiry  into  the  lawfulness  of  such  restraint,  and  to  a  removal  thereof 
if  unlawful,  and  that  such  enquiry  and  removal  ought  not  to  be 
denied  or  delayed,  except  when  on  account  of  Public  Danger 
the  Congress  shall  suspend  the  privilege  of  the  Writ  of  Habeas 
Corpus. 

That  excessive  Bail  ought  not  to  be  required ;  nor  excessive  Fines 
imposed ;  nor  Cruel  or  unusual  Punishments  inflicted. 

That  (except  in  the  Government  of  the  Land  and  Naval  Forces, 
and  of  the  Militia  when  in  actual  Service,  and  in  cases  of  Impeach- 
ment) f.  Presentment  or  Indictment  by  a  Orand  Jury  ought  to  be 
observed  as  a  necessary  preliminary  to  the  trial  of  all  Crimes  cogniz- 
able by  the  Judiciary  of  the  United  States,  and  such  Trial  should 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     667 

rn™™  P°""' ">f  ^  an  impartial  Jmy  of  the  County  where  the 
Cnme  was  committed;  and  that  no  per«,n  can  be  found  Guilty  with! 

ll^^T'T"  '""T*  °'  "^'^  '^"'^-  «"*  ^  "^  ot  CrimeTnot 
C^l^r  "'^.  ^*""*^  •»'  *°y  °'  **«  United  States,  and  in 

Ca«8  of  Cnmee  committed  within  any  County  in  which  a  general  In- 
surrection may  prevail,  or  which  may  oe  in  the  possession  of  a  or- 
j;^  -STk  /  ""T"^  ^^  ^'^  "'y  ^  •"  '^'^  County  as  the  Con- 
S^/f  ?J  t""  ^''^'''  ""^'^  ^"°°*y  ^  *^«  *'°  Cases  last  men- 
whlh  ft°r  •  "  T'  \'  '='»'^«°«°«y  »«y  be  to  that  County  in 
which  the  Cnme  may  have  been  committed.    And  that  in  all  Criminal 

TaTuTniT'  T  """"^^  °°«'*  *°  ^  ^«™^  «'  the  cause  and 
nature  of  his  Accusation,  to  be  confronted  witu  his  accusers  and  the 
Witnmes  agamst  hun  to  have  the  means  of  producing  his  Witnesses! 
and  the  assistance  of  Council  for  his  defen«j,  and  should  not  be  com- 
pelled to  give  Evidence  against  himself. 

mon  Law  of  England  is  one  of  the  greatest  securities  to  the  rights  of 
a  free  People,  and  ought  to  remain  inviolate. 

That  every  Freeman  has  a  right  to  be  secure  from  all  unreason- 
able searches  and  seizures  of  his  person  hi.  papers  or  his  proi^Td 

F^mri^"*  *"  '^''"'"''  *"  ""^  "^^-^  places  «S  Z 
a7Z^-  r^i"  "  P^P*'*^'  '^thout  infc  ation  upon  Oath  or 
Affirmation  of  sufficient  cause,  are  grievou.  anu  oppressive-  and  thaj 
all  general  Warrants  (or  such  in  which  the  place  or  ^n  sispe^tS 
are^not  particularly  designated)  are  d^igerou.  «.d^uS?  TX^ 

oo.'^Tf^'I^^^''  ^"""^  *  "•^'**  P**^hly  to  as«,mble  together  to 
consult  for  their  common  good,  or  to  imrtruct  their  ReprSitlves 
and  that  every  person  has  a  right  to  Petition  or  apply  to  the  S 

ought  not  to  be  violated  or  restrained. 

H.nJ'i;!,  v"*  ?""??  ^  °°"'  ^  '""'•  y**™  "»  Election  of  the  Presi- 
dent and  Vice  President,  so  that  no  Officer  who  may  be  appointedTy 
the  C  ongress  to  act  as  President  in  case  of  the  removal  deaT^Z 
tion  or  inability  of  the  President  and  Vice  P^^^nf^Tt'^^ 

la'Sdentl^r'  p^''  *:™^**^°"  «'  *^«  ^^^  for  w^ch^ 
last  iresident  and  Vice  President  were  elected 

That  nothing  contained  in  the  said  Constitution  is  to  be  construed 
to  prevent  the  Legislature  of  any  State  from  passing  Law^  at ^™  « 

SraTt.""'  '"J'"'-*"  f'''  ™^^  ^"""^  in^convenie;?D  - 
Scte  ^'      '°  '""  Representatives  to  and  amongst  such 


iff 

St: 


^JiM, 


668     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


That  the  Prohibition  contained  in  the  laid  Constitution  againat 
ex  pott  facto  Laws,  extendi  only  to  Laws  concerning  Crimes. 

That  all  Appeals  in  Canses  determineable  according  to  the  course 
of  the  common  Law,  ought  to  be  by  Writ  of  Error  and  not  otherwise. 

That  the  Judicial  Power  of  the  United  Statea  in  cases  in  which  a 
State  may  be  a  party,  does  not  extend  to  criminal  Prosecutions,  or  to 
authorize  any  Suit  by  any  Person  against  a  State. 

That  the  Judicial  Power  of  the  United  States  aa  to  Controversies 
between  Citizens  of  the  same  State  claiming  Lands  under  Grants  of 
different  States  is  not  to  be  construed  to  extend  \Xi  any  other  Con- 
troversies between  them  except  those  which  relate  to  such  Lands,  so 
claimed  under  Grants  of  different  States. 

That  the  Jurisdiction  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States, 
or  of  any  other  Court  to  be  instituted  by  the  Congn  ss,  is  not  in  any 
case  to  be  encreased  enlarged  or  extended  by  any  Fiction  Collusion 
or  mere  suggestion; — And  That  no  Treaty  is  to  be  construed  so  to 
operate  as  to  alter  the  Constitution  of  any  State. 

Under  these  impressions  and  declaring  that  the  right'  iforesaid 
cannot  be  abridged  or  violated,  and  that  the  Explanations  foresaid 
are  consistent  with  the  said  Constitution,  And  in  confideni>c  that  the 
Amendments  which  £hall  have  been  proposed  to  the  said  Constitution 
will  receive  an  early  and  mature  Consideration :  We  the  said  Delegates, 
in  the  Name  and  in  the  behalf  of  the  People  of  the  State  of  New  York 
Do  by  these  presents  Assent  to  and  Ratify  the  said  Constitution.  In 
full  Confidence  nevertheless  that  until  a  Convention  shall  be  called 
and  convened  for  proposing  Amendments  to  the  said  Constitution,  the 
Militia  of  this  State  wdll  not  be  continued  in  Service  out  of  this  State 
for  a  longer  term  than  six  weeks  without  the  Consent  of  the  Legisla- 
ture thereof; — ^that  the  Congress  will  not  make  or  alter  any  Regula- 
tion in  this  State  respecting  the  times  places  and  manner  of  holding 
Elections  for  Senators  or  Representatives  unless  the  Legislature  of 
this  State  shall  neglect  or  refuse  to  make  Laws  or  regulations  for 
the  purpose,  or  from  any  circumstance  be  incapable  of  making  the 
same,  and  that  in  those  cases  such  power  will  only  be  exercised  until 
the  Legislature  of  this  State  shall  make  provision  in  the  Premises ; — 
that  no  Excise  will  be  imposed  on  any  Article  of  the  Growth  produc- 
tion or  Manufacture  of  the  United  States,  or  any  of  them  within  this 
State,  Ardent  Spirits  excepted;  And  that  the  Congress  will  not  lay 
direct  Taxes  within  this  State,  but  when  the  Monies  arising  from  the 
Impost  and  Excise  shall  be  insufficient  for  the  public  Exigencies,  nor 
then,  antil  Congress  shall  first  have  made  a  Requisition  upon  this 
State  to  assess  levy  and  pay  the  Amount  of  sucli  Requisition  made 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION.  AMENDMENTS  669 
•greuhly  to  the  Census  fixed  in  the  said  Constitution  in  snch  way  and 
manner  as  the  Legislature  of  this  State  riiall  judge  best  but  Jfat^n 
such  case,  if  the  SUte  AM  neglect  or  refuse  to  payLTropSioi  du^ 
BU^t  to  such  Requisition,  then  the  Congress  mJ^TI1:^Zl 
States  proporfon  together  with  Interest  at  the  Rate  of  aix  per  cTntum 
per  Annun.  from  the  time  at  which  the  same  w«.  requlred^o  be  pa!" 

Done  ,n  C<,nvention  at  Poughkeepde  in  the  County  of  Dutchess 
xn  the  State  of  New  York  the  twenty  sixth  day  of  jty  " 

Egh^eight."''  """  *'°""°'  '"•"  ""'*«•*  ""^ 

By  Order  of  the  Convention. 
Attested  G»0:CUN«>N  President 

John  McKesson 


Ab>*B. 


I'^Kesson  )  o 


ti.«tfl  *  x?"""^"*'""  ^°  '°  **■*  ^'•"«  "»«*  B«»»alf  of  the  People  of 
the  State  of  New  York  enjoin  it  upon  their  Representat^v^Tthe 
Congress,  to  Exert  aU  their  Influence,  and  use  all  ^reasonable  melt 

ShuTon  2"  f '*""  ''  *'*  '°"°"'°^  Amendments  to  the  Z^Z 
stitution  in  the  manner  prescribed  therein;  and  in  aU  Laws  to  be 

^^f  ^"""^t??  "  '"  "  **•«  Constitution  will  admit. 
InhlSfLf  1^  °°'  Representative  for  every  thirty  thousand 

Inhabitants,  according  to  the  enumeration  or  Census  mentionedin 

to'twoTnd!i°'  T"  *'!"'^'''  °'-^'  «'  BepresenutTr^lS 
to  two  hundred;  after  which  that  number  shall  be  continued  or  e" 
cre^d  but  not  diminished,  as  Cong«ss  shall  direct.  anSIccoXg 

p^mbed  for  the  Apportionment  of  Representatives  and  direct 

^«'^f  A*S  ^°T^  ^^  °"*  ™P««  «y  Excise  on  unr  Article 

irrrr  -S^l  ^P^**^  •»'  *^«  ^'^^J'  Production  or  ZuflftSe 
of  the  United  States,  or  any  of  them  -lanuiaciure 

That  Congress  do  not  lay  direct  Taxes  but  when  the  Monies 
an«ng  from  the  Impost  and  Excise  shaU  be  insufficieni  f orTh^ 
Public  Exigencies,  nor  then  until  Congreas  ahaU^have  made  ! 
Requi«  ion  upon  the  States  to  «»ess  levy  and  pay  thdrLpitlve 

s'lTr'!'!?;  •™"'  »«^°^*^«'"'  -^^-Wy  to  the  Census  IIT^Z 
said  Comrtitution,  ,n  such  way  and  manner  as  the  LegislataJL  of 
^e  respective  States  shall  judge  best;  and  in  such  Ca^Ta^TtaJe 
-baU  neglect  or  refuse  to  pay  ita  proportion  pursuant  t;  su^^S 


670     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

Bition,  then  Congre«  may  a«e»  and  levy  inch  SUtea  proportion, 
together  with  Interert  at  the  rate  of  rix  per  Centum  per  Annum,  from 
the  time  of  Paynient  prewribed  in  euch  Bcquieition. 

That  the  CongreM  ihaU  not  make  or  alter  any  Regulation  in  any 
SUte  respecting  the  timee  places  and  manner  of  holding  Electiona 
for  Senators  or  Representatives,  unless  the  Legislature  of  such  State 
shall  neglect  or  refuse  to  make  Laws  or  Regulations  for  the  purpose, 
or  from  any  circumstance  be  incapable  of  making  the  same;  and 
then  only  until  the  Legislature  of  such  State  shall  make  provision 
in  the  premises;  provided  that  Congress  may  prescribe  the  time 
for  the  Election  of  Representatives. 

That  no  Persons  except  natural  bom  Citizens,  or  such  as  were 
Citizens  on  or  before  the  fourth  day  of  Juiy  one  thousand  sev«i 
hundred  and  seventy  six,  or  such  as  held  Commissions  under  the 
United  States  during  the  War,  and  have  at  any  time  since  the 
fourth  day  of  July  one  thousaud  seven  hundred  and  seventy  six  be- 
come Citizens  of  one  or  other  of  the  United  States,  and  who  shall 
be  Freeholders,  shall  be  eligible  to  the  Places  of  President,  Vice 
President,  or  Members  of  either  House  of  the   Congress  of  the 

United  States. 

That  the  Congress  do  not  grant  Monopolies  or  erect  any  Com- 
pany with  exclusive  Advantages  of  Commerce. 

That  no  standing  Army  or  regular  Troops  shaU  be  raised  or  kept 
up  in  time  of  peace,  without  the  consent  of  two-thirds  of  the  Senators 
and  Representatives  present,  in  each  House. 

That  no  Money  be  borrowed  on  the  Credit  of  the  United  States 
without  the  Assent  of  two-thirds  of  the  Senators  and  Representatives 

present  in  each  House. 

That  the  Congress  shall  not  declare  War  without  the  concur- 
rence of  two-thirds  of  the  Senators  and  Representatives  present  in 

each  House.  „         .  t 

That  the  Privilege  of  the  Habeas  Corpus  shall  not  by  any  h&w 
be  suspended  for  a  longer  term  than  six  Months,  or  until  twenty 
days  after  the  Meeting  of  the  Congress  next  following  the  passing 
of  the  Act  for  such  suspension. 

That  the  Right  of  the  Congress  to  exercise  exclusive  Legislation 
over  such  District,  not  exceeding  ten  Miles  square,  as  may  by  cession 
of  a  particular  State,  and  the  acceptance  of  Congress,  become  the 
Seat  of  the  Government  of  the  United  States,  shall  not  be  so  exercised, 
as  to  exempt  the  Inhabitants  of  such  District  from  paying  the  like 
Taxes  Imposts  Duties  and  Excises,  as  shall  be  imposed  on  the  other 
Inhabitants  of  the  State  in  which  such  District  may  be;  and  that 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     671 

no  penon  AM  be  pririleged  within  the  nid  Dirtrict  from  Amrt 
for  Cnme.  committed,  or  Debts  contrMted  out  of  the  laid  Dirtrict 
That  the  Bight  of  ezoliuiTe  Legidation  with  req>ect  to  nich 
placee  u  may  be  purchwed  for  the  Erection  of  Ports,  Magazinee 
Arsenals,  Dockyards  and  other  needful  Building^  shaU  not  anthori«i 
the  Congress  to  make  any  Law  to  prevent  the  Laws  of  the  States 
respective^-  in  which  they  may  be.  from  extending  to  such  pUce. 
m  all  cm!  and  Criminal  Matters  except  as  to  snch  Penwns  «i  shall 
be  m  the  Service  of  the  United  States;  nor  to  them  with  respect  to 
Crimes  committed  without  such  Places. 

That  the  Compensation  for  the  Senators  and  Representatives  be 
ascertained  by  rtanding  I^ws;  and  that  no  alteration  of  the  exirt- 
ing  rate  of  Compensation  shall  operate  for  the  Benefit  of  the  Repre- 
sentatives,  unW  after  a  subsequent  Election  shaU  have  been  had 

That  the  Journals  of  the  Congress  shaU  be  published  at  leart 
once  a  year,  with  the  exception  of  such  parts  relating  to  Treaties 
or  Military  operations,  as  in  the  Judgment  of  either  House  shaU 
require  Secrecy,  and  that  both  Houses  of  Congress  shaU  always  keep 
th«r  Doors  open  during  their  Sessions,  unless  the  Business  may  in 
their  Opinion  requires  Secrecy.     That  the  yeas  ft  nays  shall  be 

maytl„Se  U.'  ^'""^  ''*"'°'''"  *^''  ^'""^"  ^  *'*^«  ^""-^ 
That  no  Capitation  Tax  shaU  ever  be  laid  by  the  Congress 

in  L     r  ^*T°  ^  ''^"*  "  "  ^«°**"  '"  '»««  than'six  years 
in  any  tern  of  twelve  years;  and  that  tiie  Legislatures  of  the 

m*  ^***^i."*^  ""/  ''''"  ^"*''™  "  «^<"  them   «d 
elect  others  in  tiieir  stead,  to  serve  the  remainder  of  the  tim^  for 
which  she  Senators  so  recalled  were  appointed. 
-K^v   °°  ^°**°''  "'  Representative  shaU  during  the  time  for 

:it  uS  siT  "^  *^^^*^  ^  "^  ^-  -^-  *^«  ^^^^^^ 

That  the  Authority  given  to  the  Executives  of  the  States  to  fill 

mJTT  "'  ^°"*°"  "^  ''^"'**^'  ""i  that  such  y^ZZ 
filled  by  tiie  respective  Legislatures.  »^««»cies  oe 

R.n^"l*^'  JT?","*'  ^°°*^  **»  P""  "^'o™  I*^  concerning 
iTZtf      "'^y,''^""*  to  Merchants  and  other  Traders;  Z 

Inslll^tuor"*'"'"  ""^  "^  ^"^  '«"•  ^  «"«'  0^  other 

uni^strt^T^ji  mIl::.  ^"^"^  *"  *^^  ^-  ^^  ^^^-^ «'  the 

^•♦wf  ^i"  ^*«««tive  shall  not  grart  Pardons  for  Treason,  unless 
w,th  the  Consent  of  the  Congress;  but  may  at  his  discretio;  Zmt 


672     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Seprievet  to  persona  convicted  of  Treason,  until  their  Cases,  can  be 
laid  before  the  Congress. 

That  the  President  or  person  exercising  his  Powers  for  the  time 
being,  shall  not  command  an  Army  in  the  Field  in  person,  without 
the  previous  desire  of  the  Congress. 

That  all  Letters  Patent,  Commissions,  Pardons,  Writs  and  Process 
of  the  United  Stbtes,  shall  run  in  the  Name  of  the  People  of  the  United 
States,  and  be  tested  in  the  Name  of  the  President  of  the  United 
States,  or  the  person  exercising  his  powers  for  the  time  being,  or  the 
first  Judge  of  the  Court  out  of  which  the  same  shall  issue,  as  the 
case  may  be. 

That  the  Congress  shall  not  constitute  ordain  or  establish  any 
Tribunals  or  Inferior  Courts,  with  any  other  than  Appellate  Juris- 
diction,  except  such  as  may  be  necessary  for  the  Tryal  of  Causes 
of  Admiralty  and  Maritime  Jurisdiction,  and  for  the  Trial  of  Piracies 
and  Felonies  committed  on  the  High  Seas;  and  in  all  other  Cases 
to  which  the  Judicial  Power  of  the  United  States  extends,  and  in 
which  the  Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States  has  not  original 
Jurisdiction,  the  Causes  shall  be  heard  tried,  and  determined  in  some 
one  of  the  State  Courts,  with  the  right  of  Appeal  to  the  Supreme 
Court  of  the  United  States,  or  other  proper  Tribunal  to  be  esteblished 
for  that  purpose  by  the  Congress,  wim  such  exceptions,  and  under 
such  regulations  as  the  Congress  shall  make. 

That  the  Court  for  the  Trial  of  Impeachments  shall  consist  of 
the  Senate,  the  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States, 
and  the  first  or  Senior  Judge  for  the  time  being,  of  the  highest 
Court  of  general  and  ordinary  common  Law  Jurisdiction  in  each 
State; — that  the  Congress  shall  by  standing  Laws  designate  the 
Courts  in  the  respective  States  answering  this  Description,  and  in 
States  having  no  Courts  exactly  answering  this  Description,  shall  desig> 
nate  some  other  Court,  preferring  such  if  any  there  be,  whose 
Judge  or  Judges  may  hold  their  places  during  good  Behaviour — 
Provided  that  no  more  than  one  Judge,  other  than  Judges  of  the 
Supreme  Court  df  the  United  States,  shall  come  from  one  State — 
That  the  Congress  be  authorized  to  pass  Laws  for  compensating  the 
said  Judges  for  such  Services  and  for  compelling  their  Attendance — 
and  that  a  Majority  at  least  of  the  said  Judges  shall  be  requisite 
to  constitute  the  said  Court — that  no  person  impeached  shall  sit  as  a 
Member  thereof.  That  each  Member  shall  previous  to  the  entering 
upon  any  Trial  take  an  Oath  or  Affirmation,  honestly  ar-  impartially 
to  hear  and  determine  the  Cause — and  that  a  Majority  of  the  Mem- 
bers present  shall  be  necessary  to  a  Conviction. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     678 
That  pencil,  aggrieved  by  wy  Judgment,  Sentence  or  Decree  of 

Court  ha.  onglnd  Juri«liction,  with  roch  exception,  and  under 
«ch  Regulation,  a,  the  Congre«  .hall  n,ake  con  cming  the  «me 
^hall  upon  appUcation.  have  a  Commi«ion  to  be  i«!ed  byT^ 
Pre..dent  of  the  United  State.,  to  «ch  Men  learned  in  the  Law  a.  hi 

TJZ^'"'  Tf  ''  ^^  '"••  *^'  ^^--  "<»  conLt  of  the  lei! 
«te  appoint,  not  le«  than  .even,  authoriring  .uch  Commiwione" 
or  any  «ven  or  more  of  them,  to  correct  the  Error,  in  ^cTjudg: 
ment  or  to  review  , uch  Sentence  and  Decree,  a.  the  ca«  may  be,  and 
to  do  Justice  to  the  partie.  in  the  Premi«i. 

>.«i  r"*  °  ^u*^"^^!  **'  *^*  ^"P"""  ^""'t  0'  ^  United  States  .hall 
hold  any  other  Office  under  the  United  SUte..  or  any  of  them 

nn  rTnL  ^''''"  *•'  *^«  ^°'*«<^  State,  diall  extend  to 

no  Controveraie.  respecUng  Land,  unle.^  it  relate  to  Claim,  of  Terri- 
ton^  or  JurMdiction  between  State.,  or  to  Claim,  of  Land  betweTn 

SS^rSuL^""  "'•'"  "'  '"'"^'"'^  '^°^"  the  G^n 
That  the  Militia  of  any  State  .haU  not  be  compeUed  to  Mrve 

without  the  limit,  of  the  State  for  a  longer  term  C  «x  w«ta 

without  the  Con«>nt  of  the  Legiriature  thTreof  ' 

That  the  word,  without  the  Consent  of  the  Congress  in  the  Mventh 

^Z^       "^*''  ^"°  "'  *"'  *"*  ^"^«  «*  ^«  Con.SS,tTorJ* 

T  J^'I  2^  ^°***'"  "^  Bepw«ntotive.  and  aU  Executive  and 
Judio.  OfBc«.  of  the  United  State,  di.ll  be  bound  ^oYth  oJ 
Aflarmatm  not  to  infnage  or  violate  the  Conrtitution.  or  Right,  rf 
the  reqieetive  Sutet  «*gma  m 

That  the  Lecture,  of  the  «»pective  Stetea  may  make  Pro- 
nnon  by  Law  that  the  Elector,  of  the  Election  Dirtrirt.  to  be^ 

W  Sr"'*^  fS  ''^°"  '  ^*^°  ''  *»>«  United  Stat«^  wL^ 
have  been  an  Inhabitant  of  rach  Dirtrict  for  the  Term  of  one  year 

s;:tf  ss:'^  "^^  °'  ^^  ^^«*^«°' '- »-  ^^  *^«  ^^■ 

Done  in  Convention  at  Poughkeepwe  in  the  County  of  Dutche* 
in  the  State  of  New  York  the  twenty  rixth  daT  of  July  ta 
^year  of  our  Lord  One  thojand  Mven  hundred  and  Eighty 

By  Order  of  the  Convention. 

^?^^««,  .  Ow:  CuNTON  Prerident 

John  M^'B^esson  /  a--*—: 

Ab- B.  Banckkr  r*"***"**- 


674     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


State  or  Noith  Camlina.* 

In  Convention,  August  1,  1788. 

BesolTed,  That  a  Declaration  of  Righti,  aMerting  and  wenring 
from  encroachment  the  great  Principles  of  civil  and  religious  Liberty, 
and  the  unalienable  Rif^ts  of  the  People,  together  with  Amend- 
ments to  the  most  ambiguous  and  exceptional  Parts  of  the  said 
Constitution  of  Government,  ought  to  be  laid  before  Congress,  and 
the  Convention  of  the  States  that  shall  or  may  be  called  for  the 
Purpose  of  Amending  the  said  Constitution,  for  their  consideration, 
previous  to  the  Ratification  of  the  Constitution  aforeaaid,  on  the 
part  of  the  State  of  North  Carolina. 


Declaration  of  Right$ 

1st  That  there  are  certain  natural  rights  of  which  men,  when 
they  form  a  social  compact,  cannot  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity, 
among  which  are  the  enjoyment  of  life,  and  liberty,  with  the  means 
of  acquiring,  possessing  and  protecting  property,  and  ponuing  and 
obtaining  happiness  and  safety. 

2d.  That  all  power  is  naturally  vested  in,  and  consequently 
derived  from  the  people ;  that  magistrates  therefore  are  their  trustees, 
and  agents,  and  at  all  times  amenable  to  them. 

3d.  That  Government  ong^t  to  be  instituted  for  the  common 
benefit,  protection  and  security  of  the  people;  and  that  the  doctrine 
of  non-resistance  against  arbitrary  power  and  oppression  is  absurd, 
slavish,  and  destructive  to  the  good  and  happiness  of  mankind. 

4th  That  no  man  or  set  of  men  are  entitled  to  exclusive  or 
separate  public  emoliunents  or  privileges  from  the  community,  bat 
in  consideration  of  public  services;  which  not  being  descendible, 
neither  ought  the  offices  of  magistrate,  legislator  or  judge,  or  any 
other  public  office  to  be  hereditary. 

5th.  That  the  legislative,  executive  and  judiciary  powers  of  gov- 
ernment should  be  separate  and  distinct,  and  that  the  members  of 
the  two  first  may  be  restrained  from  oppression  by  feeling  and  par- 
ticipating the  public  burthens,  they  should  at  fixed  periods  be  re- 
duced to  a  private  station,  return  into  the  mass  of  the  people ;  and 
the  vacancies  be  supplied  by  certain  and  regular  elections ;  in  which 
all  or  any  part  of  the  former  members  to  be  eligible  or  ineligible, 

■  Reprinted  from  Documentary  BUtory  of  the  Conttitution,  Vol.  11  (1894), 
pp.  26«-278,  276.  290. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     675 
M^  rol«  of  the  CoMtituUon  of  OoT*mn»nt,  and  the  Uwi  ahdl 

6th.  That  elections  of  BepreeentatiTee  in  the  legislature  ouht 
to  be  free  and  frequent,  and  all  men  harinff  anfflcient  eTidencrof 
permanent  common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to  the  community 

be  set,  rated,  or  levied  upon  the  people  without  their  own  consent, 
or  tnat  of  their  representatives,  so  elected,  nor  can  they  be  bound  by 
any  law,  to  which  they  have  not  in  like  manner  assented  for  the 
public  good.  '^' 

7th.  That  aU  power  of  suspending  Uws.  or  the  execution  of 
laws  by  any  authority  without  the  consent  of  the  leptesenUtives  of 
the  people  in  the  Legislature,  is  injurious  to  their  rights,  and  ou^t 
not  to  be  exercised.  ^ 

8th     That  in  all  capital  and  criminal  prosecutions,  a  man  hath 

wii  ^  JT  "•'*  !°^  "*"'•  *»'  "■  ««»»tion,  to  be  con. 

fronted  with  the  accusers  and  witnesses,  to  call  for  evidence  and  be 

k^partial  JUI7  of  his  vicinsge.  without  whoM»  unanimous  coient 
he  cannot  be  found  guilty  (except  in  the  government  of  the  land  and 
njvd^force.)   nor  can  he  be  compeUed  to  give  evidence  agdnst 

«*i?^  Tl»«t  no  freeman  ought  to  be  taken,  impri«med,  or  disseised 
of  his  freehold,  liberties,  privileges  or  franchises,  or  outlawed  or  exiled. 

erty  but  by  the  law  of  the  land. 

to  a  remedy  to  inquire  into  the  Uwfulness  thereof,  and  to  remove 

^r  ^S.     ^''^'  ""^  *^*  "'''  ""'*'  *«^*  ^'^^^  ^^^ 

twii*!l;.rf*.*!»^  controversies  respecting  property,  and  in  «ut«  be- 
tween  man  and  man,  the  ancient  trial  by  jury  is  one  of  the  neatest 

STbTe.*"  *"•  "''*'  ''  *"'  ^^'''  "•*  '»"'**  *»  ^mL  -cStS 
12th    That  every  freeman  ought  to  find  a  certain  remedy  bv 

h^^l^^^T  r  '"^"-  ^*  *"'»*'*  *«  «>''t«^  right  and  justice 
freely  without  sale,  completely  and  without  denial,  promptly  and 

S  41  Sr'  *'"*  ""  e^bli^-ent.,  or  regulado'^Saven 
ing  these  rights,  are  oppressive  and  unjust. 

13th.  That  excessive  bail  ought  not  to  be  required,  nor  excessive 
fine,  imposed,  nor  cruel  and  unusual  punishmeS  inflicted 


676     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  I7i7 

14.  Th*t  ev«y  tnmtn  hai  »  rjght  to  be  Mcan  from  sll  unrt* 
■onable  Marcbca,  and  Miiura  of  hia  pcraon,  hU  papera,  and  property: 
all  warranU  therefore  to  acareh  nwpected  plaew,  or  aeise  any  freeman, 
hia  papcm  or  property,  without  information  upon  oath  (or  afflrma- 
tion  of  a  penon  religioaaly  acrupuloua  of  takinj  an  oath^  of  lefal 
and  lufflcient  cauae,  are  grievoua  and  oppreaiive,  and  all  general  war- 
ranto to  aearch  luapeeted  placea,  or  to  apprehend  any  auipected 
peraon  withont  apeeially  naming  or  deKribing  the  place  or  perM», 
are  dangeroua  and  ought  not  to  be  granted. 

15tb.  That  the  people  have  a  right  peaceably  to  aaaemble  together 
to  coniult  for  the  common  good,  or  to  initn'  '  their  repreeentativea ; 
and  that  every  freeman  baa  a  right  to  peti..  or  apply  to  the  Legia- 
latnre  for  redrev  of  grievancea. 

16th.  That  the  people  have  a  right  to  freedom  of  apeech,  and  of 
writing  and  publishing  their  eentimenta;  that  the  freedom  of  the 
preaa  ia  one  of  the  greateat  bulwarka  of  Liberty,  and  ought  not  to 
be  violated. 

17th.  That  the  people  have  a  right  to  keep  and  bear  arma;  that 
a  well  regulated  militia  compoaed  of  the  body  of  the  people,  trained 
to  arma,  is  the  proper,  natural  and  safe  defence  of  a  free  sUte.  That 
standing  armiea  in  time  of  peace  are  dang  rous  to  Liberty,  and 
therefore  ought  to  ^  avoided,  as  far  as  the  circumstances  and  pro- 
tection of  the  comu  aity  will  admit ;  and  that  in  all  cases,  the  military 
should  be  under  strict  subordination  to,  and  governed  by  the  civil 
power. 

18th.  That  no  soldier  in  time  of  peace  ought  to  be  quartered  in  any 
house  without  the  consent  of  the  owuar,  -  i.  in  time  of  war  in  aach 
manner  only  as  the  Laws  direet 

19th.  That  any  peraon  relicpously  scrupulous  of  bearing  arma 
ought  to  be  exempted  upon  payment  of  an  equivalent  to  employ 
another  to  bear  arma  in  hia  stead. 

10.  That  religion,  or  the  duty  which  we  owe  to  our  Creator,  and 
the  manner  of  discharging  it,  can  be  di'^cted  only  by  reason  and 
conviction,  not  by  force  or  violence,  and  therefore  all  men  have  an 
equal,  nPtural  and  unalienable  right  to  the  free  exercise  of  religion 
according  to  the  dictates  of  conscience,  and  that  no  particular 
religious  sect  or  society  ought  to  be  favoured  or  established  by  law 
in  preference  to  others. 


CONSTITUTION,  lUTIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     677 


Amtndmsnfi  io  (k«  ConalUutiim. 

I.  THAT  ear)>  ttate  in  the  union  tiukll,  ntpectively,  retain  every 
power,  jtiricdietioa  and  right,  which  \»  not  by  thii  conatitutiou  dele> 
rated  to  the  Congre«  of  the  United  States,  or  to  the  department*  of 
the  Federal  Gorenunent 

II.  That  there  ahall  be  one  repreeentative  for  every  30.000,  ao- 
eording  to  the  enumeration  or  censui,  mentioued  in  the  constitution, 
until  the  whole  number  of  repreeentatives  amounta  to  two  hundred  i 
after  which,  that  number  shall  be  continued  or  increased,  as  Con- 
gress shall  direct,  upon  the  principles  fixed  in  the  constitution,  bjr 
apportioning  the  representatives  of  ««eh  state  to  some  greater  num- 
ber of  people  from  time  to  time,  as  population  encreases. 

III.  When  Congress  shall  laj  direct  taxes  or  excises,  they  shall 
immediately  inform  th«  executive  power  of  each  state,  of  the  quota 
of  such  State,  according  to  the  census  herein  directed,  which  is 
proposed  to  be  thereby  raised:  And  if  the  legislature  of  any  state 
shall  pass  a  law,  which  shall  be  effectual  for  raising  such  quota  at 
the  time  required  by  Congress,  the  taxee  and  excises  laid  hj  Congress 
shall  not  be  collected  in  such  state. 

IV.  That  the  members  of  the  senate  snd  house  of  representatives 
ahall  be  ineligible  to,  and  incapable  of  holding  any  civil  office  under 
the  authority  of  the  United  SUtes,  during  the  time  for  which  they 
shall,  respectively,  be  elected. 

V.  That  the  journals  of  the  prooeedingi  of  the  senate  and  house 
of  representatives  shall  be  published  at  least  once  in  every  year,  except 
such  parts  thereoi  relating  to  tr^Kties,  alliances,  or  milit^jy  opera- 
tions, as  in  their  judgment  require  secrecy. 

VI.  That  a  regular  statement  and  account  of  the  receipts  and 
expenditures  of  the  public  money  shall  be  published  at  least  once  in 
every  year. 

VII.  That  no  commercial  treaty  shall  be  ratified  without  the 
c<mcurrence  of  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number  of  the  members  of 
the  Senate:  And  no  treaty,  ceding,  contracting,  or  restraining  or 
suspending  the  territorial  rights  or  claims  of  the  United  States,  or 
any  of  them  or  their,  or  any  of  their  rights  or  claims  to  fishing 
in  the  American  seas,  or  navigating  the  American  rivers  shall  be 
made,  but  in  cases  of  the  most  urgent  and  extreme  neceaiity;  nor 
shall  any  such  treaty  be  ratified  without  the  concurrence  of  three- 
fourths  of  the  whole  number  of  the  members  of  both  houses 
spectively. 


re- 


678     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

Vin.  That  no  navigation  law,  or  law  regulating  commerce  shall 
be  passed  without  the  consent  o£  two-thirds  of  the  members  present 
in  both  houses. 

IX  That  no  standing  army  or  regular  troops  shall  be  raised  or 
kept  up  in  time  of  peace,  without  the  consent  of  two  thirds  of  the 
members  present  in  both  houses. 

X.  That  no  eoldier  shall  be  enlisted  for  any  longer  term  than  four 
years,  except  in  time  of  war,  and  then  for  no  longer  term  than  the 
continuance  of  the  war 

XI.  That  each  state,  respectively,  shall  have  the  power  to  provide 
for  organizing,  arming  and  disciplining  its  own  militia  whensoever 
Congress  shall  omit  or  neglect  to  provide  for  the  same.  That  the 
militia  shall  not  be  subject  to  martial  law,  except  when  in  actual 
service  in  time  of  war,  invasion  or  rebellion:  And  when  not  in  the 
actual  service  of  the  United  States,  shall  be  subject  only  to  such  fines, 
penalties,  and  punishments  as  shall  be  directed  or  inflicted  by  the 
laws  of  its  own  state. 

XII.  That  Congress  shall  not  declare  any  state  to  be  in  rebellion 
without  the  consent  of  at  least  two-thirds  of  all  the  members  present 
of  both  houses. 

XIII.  That  the  exclusive  power  of  Legislation  given  to  Congress 
over  the  federal  town  and  its  adjacent  district,  and  other  places,  pur- 
chased or  to  be  purchased  by  Congress,  of  any  of  the  states,  shall 
extend  only  to  such  regulations  as  respect  the  police  and  good  gov- 
ernment thereof. 

XIV.  That  no  person  shall  be  capable  of  being  president  of 
the  United  States  for  more  than  eight  years  in  any  term  of  sixteen 
years. 

XV.  That  the  judicial  power  of  the  United  States  shall  be  vested 
in  one  supreme  court,  and  in  such  courts  of  admiralty  as  Congress 
may  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish  in  any  of  the  different 
states.  The  judicial  power  shall  extend  to  all  cases  in  law  and 
equity,  arising  under  treaties  made,  or  which  shall  be  made  under 
the  authority  of  the  United  States ;  to  all  cases  affecting  ambassadors, 
other  foreign  ministers  and  consuls;  to  all  cases  of  admiralty,  and 
maritime  jurisdiction;  to  controversies  to  which  the  United  States 
shall  be  a  party;  to  controversies  between  two  or  more  states,  and 
between  parties  claiming  lands  under  the  grants  of  different  states. 
In  all  cases  affecting  ambassadors,  other  foreign  miinisters  and  consuls, 
and  those  in  which  a  state  shall  be  a  party;  the  supreme  court  shall 
have  original  jurisdiction,  in  all  other  cases  before  mentioned;  the 
supreme  court  shall  have  appellate  jurisdiction  as  to  matters  of 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      679 

law  only,  except  in  cases  of  equity,  and  of  admiralty  and  maritime 
jurisdiction,  in  which  the  supreme  court  shall  have  appelate  juris- 
diction both  as  to  law  and  fact,  with  such  exceptions,  and  under  such 
regulations  as  the  Congress  shall  make.  But  the  judicial  power  of 
the  Unitc<?  States  shall  extend  to  no  case  where  the  cause  of  action 
shall  bii-.  i  '.nah-^ted  before  the  ratification  of  this  constitution,  except 
in  d.  i,ates  between  /jtes  about  their  territory;  disputes  between 
perse  s  ''kiming  Ian  ii  under  the  grants  of  different  states,  and 
suits  .  )r  JebtB  due  t    the  united  states. 

Xi'l  Thst  '•-  criminal  nrosecutions,  no  man  shall  be  restrained  in 
the  exercise  of  the  usual  and  accustomed  right  of  challenging  or 
excepting  to  the  jury. 

XVII.  That  Congress  shall  not  alter,  modify,  or  interfere  in  the 
times,  places,  or  manner  of  holding  elections  for  senators  and  repre- 
sentatives, or  either  of  them,  except  when  the  legislature  of  any 
state  shall  neglect,  refuse  or  be  disabled  by  invasion  or  rebellion,  to 
prescribe  the  same. 

XYIII.  That  those  clauses  which  declare  that  Congress  shall  not 
exercise  certain  powers,  be  not  interpreted  in  any  manner  whatsoever 
to  extend  the  powers  of  Congress;  but  that  they  be  construed  either 
as  making  exceptions  to  the  specified  powers  where  this  shall  be 
the  case,  or  otherwise,  as  inserted  merely  for  greater  caution. 

XIX  That  the  laws  ascertaining  the  compensation  of  senators  and 
representatives  for  their  services  be  posponed  in  their  operation, 
until  after  the  election  of  representatives  immediately  succeeding 
the  passing  thereof,  that  excepted,  which  shall  first  be  passed  on  the 
subject, 

XX.  That  some  tribunal,  other  than  the  senate,  be  provided  for 
trying  impeachments  of  senators. 

XXI  That  the  salary  of  a  judge  shall  not  be  increased  or  dimin- 
ished during  his  continuance  in  ofSce,  otherwise  than  by  general 
regulations  of  salary  which  may  take  place,  on  a  revision  of  the 
subject  at  stated  periods  of  not  less  than  seven  years,  to  com- 
mence from  the  time  such  salaries  shall  be  first  ascertained  by 
Congress. 

XXn.  That  Ccmgress  erect  no  company  of  merchants  with  ex- 
clusive advantages  of  commerce. 

XXin.  That  no  treaties  which  shall  be  directly  opposed  to  the 
existing  laws  of  the  United  States  in  Congress  assembled,  shall  be 
valid  until  such  laws  shall  be  r^>ealed,  or  made  conformable  to  such 
treaty;  nor  shall  any  treaty  be  valid  which  is  contradictory  to  the 
constitution  of  the  United  States. 


680     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

XXIV.  That  the  latter  part  of  the  fifth  paragraph  of  the  9th 
section  of  the  first  article  be  altered  to  read  thus,— Nor  shall  vessels 
bound  to  a  particular  state  be  obliged  to  enter  or  pay  duties  in  any 
other;  nor  when  bound  from  any  one  of  the  SUtes  be  obliged  to  clear 
in  another. 

XXV.  That  Congress  shall  not  directly  or  indirectly,  either  by 
themselves  or  thro'  the  judiciary,  interfere  with  any  one  U  the 
states  in  the  redemption  of  paper  money  already  emitted  and  now  in 
circulation,  or  in  liquidating  and  discharging  the  public  seourities  of 
any  one  of  the  states :  But  each  and  every  state  shall  have  the  exclusive 
right  of  making  such  laws  and  regulations  for  the  above  purposes  as 
they  shall  think  proper. 

XXVI  That  Congress  shall  not  introduce  foreign  troops  into  the 

United  States  without  the  consent  of  two-thirds  of  the  members 

present  of  both  houses. 

Sam  Johnston  President, 

By  order 
J  Hunt  Secretary  .     .     . 

In  Convention  Whereas  The  General  Convention  which  met  in  Phila- 
delphia in  pursuance  of  a  recommendation  of  Congress,  did  recom- 
mend to  the  Citiwns  of  the  United  States  a  Constitution  or  form 
of  Government  in  the  following  words  Vii^.     ... 
Resolved,  that  this  Convention  in  behalf  of  the  freemen,  citiiens 
and  inhabitants  of  the  State  of  North  Carolina,  do  adopt  and  ratify 
the  said  Constitution  and  form  of  Government.    Done  in  Conven- 
tion this  21  day  of  November  1789. 

Sah  Johnston,  President  of  the 
Convention 

J^''^  I  Secretaries 

Jambs  Tatlob  | 

State  or  Rhwe  Island.* 

Ratification  of  the  Constitution,  by  the  Convention  of  the  State  of 
Rhode-Island  and  Providence  Plantations. 

We  the  Delegates  of  the  People  of  the  SUte  of  Rhode-Island, 
and  Providence  Plantations,  duly  elected  and  met  in  Convention, 
having  maturely  considered  the  Constitution  for  the  United  States 
of  America,  agreed  to  on  the  seventeenth  day  of  September,  in  the 

■  Reprinted  from  Documentary  Bittory  of  the  ConttiUtion,  Vol.  11  (1894), 
pp.  310-320. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      681 

year  one  thoasand  seven  hundred  and  eighty  seven,  by  the  Con- 
vention then  assembled  at  Philadelphia,  in  the  Commonwealth  of 
Pennsylyania  (a  Copy  whereof  precedes  these  presentb)  and  having 
also  seriously  and  deliberately  considered  the  present  situation  of 
this  State,  do  declare  and  make  known 

1"*  That  there  are  certain  natural  rights,  of  which  raen  when  they  form 
a  social  compact,  cannot  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity,  among 
which  are  the  enjoyment  of  Life  and  Liberty,  with  the  means  of 
acquiring,  possessing  and  protecting  Property,  and  pursuing  and 
obtaining  happiness  and  safety. 

2*  That  all  power  is  naturally  vested  in,  and  consequently  derived 
from  the  People;  that  magistrates  therefore  are  their  trustees  and 
agents,  and  at  all  times  amenable  to  them. 

.3*  That  the  powers  of  government  may  be  reassumed  by  the  people, 
whensoever  it  shall  become  necessary  to  theu  happiness: — That  the 
rights  of  the  States  respectively,  to  nominate  and  appoint  all  State 
Officers,  and  every  other  power,  jurisdiction  and  right,  which  is  not 
by  the  said  constitution  clearly  delegated  to  the  Congress  of  the 
United  States  or  to  the  departments  of  government  thereof,  rem^'in 
to  the  people  of  the  several  states,  or  their  respective  State  Govern- 
ments to  whom  they  may  have  granted  the  same;  and  that  those 
clauses  in  the  said  constitution  which  declare  that  C<  ngress  shall 
not  have  or  exercise  certain  powers,  do  not  imply,  that  Congress  is 
entitled  to  any  powers  not  given  by  the  said  constitui  .  but  such 
clauses  are  to  be  construed  as  exceptions  to  certain  apet  ,d  powers, 
or  as  inserted  merely  for  greater  caution. 

4**  That  religion,  or  the  duty  which  we  owe  to  onr  Creator,  and  the 
manner  of  discharging  it,  can  be  directed  only  by  reason  and  con- 
viction, and  not  by  force  or  violence,  and  therefor.;  all  men,  have  an 
equal,  natural  and  unalienable  right  to  the  free  exeicise  of  religion, 
according  to  the  dictates  of  conscience,  and  that  no  particular  religious 
sect  or  society  ought  to  be  favoured,  or  established  by  law  in  prefer- 
ence to  others. 

S*  That  the  legislative,  executive  and  judiciary  powers  of  govern- 
ment, should  be  separate  and  distinct,  and  that  the  members  of  the 
two  first  may  be  restrained  from  oppression,  by  feeling  and  partici- 
pating the  publiok  burthens,  they  should  at  fixed  periods  be  reduced 
to  a  private  station,  return  into  the  mass  of  the  people,  and  the  vacan- 
eies  be  sapplied  by  certain  and  regular  elections,  in  which  all,  or 
any  part  of  the  former  members,  to  be  eligible  or  ineligible,  as  the 
rules  of  the  constitution  of  government  and  the  laws  shall  direct. 
6*^  That  elections  of  repreaentativea  in  legislature  ought  to  be  free 


682     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

and  frequent,  and  all  men  having  sufiBcient  evidence  of  permanent 

common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to  t'         mmunity  ought  to 

have  the  right  of  suffrage,  and  no  aid,  chart      ax  or  fee  can  be  set, 

rated  or  levied  upon  the  people,  without  their  own  consent  or  that 

of  their  representatives  so  elected,  nor  can  they  be  bound  by  any 

law,  to  which  they  have  not  in  like  manner  assented  for  the  publick 

good. 

7*  That  all  power  of  suspending  laws  or  the  execution  of  laws,  by 

any  authority  without  the  consent  of  the  representatives  of  the 

people  in  the  legislature,  is  injurious  to  their  rights,  and  ought  not  to 

be  exercised. 

8"*  That  in  all  capital  and  criminal  prosecutions,  a  man  hath  a  right  to 

demand  the  cause  and  nature  of  his  accusation,  to  be  confronted 

with  the  accusers  and  witnesses,  to  call  for  evidence  and  be  allowed 

counsel  in  his  favour,  and  to  a  fair  and  speedy  trial  by  an  impartial 

jury  of  his  vicinage,  without  whose  unanimous  consent  he  cannot 

be  found  guilty;  (except  in  the  government  of  the  land  and  naval 

forces)  nor  can  he  be  compelled  to  give  evidence  against  himself. 

9*  That  no  freeman  ought  to  be  taken,  imprisoned  or  disseised  of 

his  freehold,  liberties,  privileges,  or  franchises,  or  outlawed,  or  exiled, 

or  in  any  manner  destroyed  or  deprived  of  his  life,  liberty  or  property 

but  by  the  trial  by  jury,  or  by  the  law  of  the  land. 

10«*'  That  every  freeman  restrained  of  his  liberty,  is  intitled  to  a 

remedy,  to  enquire  into  the  lawfulness  thereof,  and  to  remove  the 

same  if  unlawful,  and  that  such  remedy  ought  not  to  be  denied  oi' 

delayed. 

11'''  That  in  controversies  respecting  property,  and  in  suits  between 

man  and  man  the  antient  trial  by  jury,  as  hath  been  exercised  by 

us  and  our  ancestors,  from  the  time  whereof  the  memory  of  man  is 

not  to  the  contrary,  is  one  of  the  greatest  securities  to  the  rights  of 

the  people,  and  ought  to  remain  sacred  and  inviolate. 

12*  That  every  freeman  ought  to  obtain  right  and  justice,  freely  and 

without  sale,  completely  and  without  denial,  promptly  and  without 

delay,  and  that  all  establishments  or  regulations  contravening  these 

rights,  are  oppressive  and  unjust. 

13""  That  excessive  bail  ought  not  to  be  required,  nor  excessive  fines 

imposed,  nor  cruel  or  unusual  punishments  inflicted. 

14""  That  every  person  has  a  right  to  be  secure  from  all  unreasonable 

searches  and  seisures  of  his  person,  his  papers  or  his  property,  and 

therefore  that  all  warrants  to  search  suspected  places  or  seise  any 

person,  his  papers  or  his  property,  without  information  upon  oath, 

or  afiSrmation,  of  sufficient  cause,  are  grievous  and  oppressive,  and 


CONSTITUTION,  EATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      683 

that  all  general  warrants  (or  such  in  which  the  place  or  person 
suspected,  are  not  particularly  designated,)  are  dangerous,  and  ought 
not  to  be  granted. 

15t»  That  the  people  have  a  right  peaceably  to  assemble  together, 
to  consult  for  their  common  good,  or  to  instruct  their  representatives ; 
and  that  every  person  has  a  right  to  petition  or  apply  to  the  legis- 
lature for  redress  of  grievances. 

16*"  That  the  people  have  a  right  to  freedom  of  speech  and  of  writing, 
and  publishing  their  sentiments,  that  freedom  of  the  press  is  one  of 
the  greatest  bulwarks  of  liberty,  and  ought  not  to  be  violated. 
IT*"  That  the  people  have  a  right  to  keep  and  bear  arms,  that  a  well 
regulated  militia,  including  the  body  of  the  people  capable  of  bearing 
arms,  is  tlie  proper,  natural  and  safe  defence  of  a  free  state;  that 
the  militia  shall  not  be  subject  to  martial  law  except  in  time  of  war, 
rebellion  or  insurrection ;  that  standing  armies  in  time  of  peace,  are 
dangerous  to  liberty,  and  ought  not  to  be  kept  up,  except  in  cases 
of  necessity;  and  that  at  all  times  the  military  should  be  under 
strict  subordination  to  the  civil  power;  that  in  time  of  peace  no 
soldier  ought  to  be  quartered  in  any  house,  without  the  consent  of 
the  owner,  and  in  time  of  war,  only  by  the  civil  magistrate,  in  such 
manner  as  the  law  directs. 

18«*  That  any  person  religiously  scrupulous  of  bearing  arms,  ought 
to  be  exempted,  upon  payment  of  an  equivalent,  to  employ  another 
to  bear  arms  in  his  stead. 

Under  these  impressions,  and  declaring,  that  the  rights  afore- 
said cannot  be  abridged  or  violated,  and  that  the  explanations  afore- 
said, are  consistant  with  the  said  constitution,  and  in  )nfidence  that 
the  amendments  hereafter  mentioned,  will  receive  an  early  and 
mature  consideration,  and  conformably  to  the  fifth  article  of  said 
constitution,  speedily  become  a  part  thereof;  We  the  said  delegates, 
in  the  name,  and  in  the  behalf  of  the  People,  of  the  State  of  Rhode- 
Island  and  Providence-Plantations,  do  by  these  Presents,  assent  to, 
and  ratify  the  said  Constitution.  In  full  confidence  nevertheless, 
that  until  the  amendments  hereafter  proposed  and  undermentioned 
shall  be  agreed  to  and  ratified,  pursuant  to  the  aforesaid  fifth  article, 
the  militia  of  this  State  will  not  be  continued  in  service  out  of  this 
State  for  a  longer  ferm  than  six  weeks,  without  the  consent  of  the 
legislature  thereof;  That  the  Congress  will  not  make  or  alter  any 
regulation  in  this  State,  respecting  the  times,  places  and  manner 
of  holding  elections  for  senators  or  representatives,  unless  the  legis- 
lature of  this  state  shall  neglect,  or  refuse  to  make  laws  or  regu- 
lations for  the  purpose,  or  from  any  drcomstance  be  incapable  of 


684     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

making  the  same;  and  that  in  those  cases,  such  power  will  only 
be  exercised,  until  the  legislature  of  this  SUte  shall  make  provision 
in  the  Premises,  that  the  Congress  will  not  lay  direct  taxes  within 
this  State,  but  when  the  monies  arising  from  the  Impost,  Tonnage 
and  Excise  shall  be  insufficient  for  the  publick  exigencies,  nor  until 
the  Congress  shall  have  first  made  a  requisition  upon  this  State 
to  assess,  levy  and  pay  the  amount  of  such  requisition,  made  agree- 
able to  the  census  fixed  in  the  said  constitution,  in  such  way  and 
manner,  as  the  legislature  of  this  State  shall  judge  beet,  and  that 
the  Congress  will  not  lay  any  capitation  or  poll  tax. 

Done  in  Convention,  at  Newport  in  the  County  of  Newport,  in 
the  State  of  Rhode-Island  and  Providence-Plantations,  the 
twenty  ninth  day  of  May,  in  the  Year  of  our  Lord  one 
thousand  seven  hundred  and  ninety,  and  in  the  fourteenth 
year  of  the  Independence  of  the  United  States  of  America. 
By  order  of  the  Convention, 

Dakdel  Owxn  President 

Attest,  Daniel  Updike  Sec* 

And  the  Convention,  do  in  the  name  and  behalf  of  the  People  of 
the  State  of  Rhode-Island  and  Providence  Plantations,  enjoin  it 
upon  their  Senators  and  Representative  or  Representatives,  which 
may  be  elected  to  represent  this  State  in  Congress,  to  exert  all  their 
influence,  and  use  all  reasonable  means  to  obtain  a  ratification  of  the 
following  Amendments  to  the  said  Constitution,  in  the  manner  pre- 
scribed therein,  and  in  all  laws  to  be  passed  by  the  Congress  in  the 
mean  time,  to  conform  to  the  spirit  of  the  said  amendments,  as  far 
as  the  constitution  will  admit. 

Amendments. 

l"  The  United  States  shall  guarantee  to  each  State  its  sovereignty, 
freedom  and  independence,  and  every  power,  jurisdiction  and  right, 
which  is  not  by  this  constitution  expressly  delegated  to  the  United 
States. 

2^  That  Congress  shall  not  alter,  modify  or  interfere  in  the  times, 
.ilaees  or  manner  of  holding  elections  for  Senators  and  Representa- 
tives, or  either  of  them,  except  when  the  legislature  of  any  sUte 
shall  neglect,  refuse  or  be  disabled  by  invasion  or  rebellion  to  pre- 
scribe the  same ;  or  in  case  when  the  the  provision  made  by  the  states, 
is  80  imperfect  as  that  no  consequent  Section  is  had,  and  then  only 
until  the  legislature  of  such  state,  shall  make  provision  in  the  premises. 
3*  It  is  declared  by  the  Convention,  that  the  judicial  power  of  the 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      689 

United  Sute»,  in  caaes  in  which  •  state  may  be  a  party,  doea  not 
extend  to  criminal  proeecutiona,  or  to  aathorize  any  ioit  by  any 
person  against  a  State;  but  to  remove  all  doubts  or  controveraiea 
reapecting  the  same,  that  it  be  especiaUy  expraaaed  aa  a  part  of  the 
constitution  of  the  United  Statea.  that  Congresa  ahaU  not  directly 
or  indirectly,  either  by  themaelves  or  through  the  judiciary,  inter- 
fere  with  any  one  of  the  states,  in  the  redemption  of  paper  money 
already  emitted  and  now  in  circulation,  or  in  liquidating  or  dia- 
charging  the  publick  securities  of  any  one  sta»e:  tuat  each  and 
-eiy  sta'te  shall  have  the  exclusive  right  of  making  such  laws 
and  regulations  for  the  before  mentioned  purpose,  aa  they  shall 
think  prop«>r. 

4**  That  no  amendments  to  the  constitution  of  the  United  States 
hereafter  to  be  made,  pursuant  to  the  fifth  article,  shall  take  effect, 
or  become  a  part  of  the  constitution  of  the  United  States  after  the 
Year  one  thousand  seven  hundred  and  ninety  three,  without  the 
conaent  of  eleven  of  the  states,  heretofore  united  under  one  con- 
federation. 

5*  That  the  judicial  powers  of  the  United  States  ahaU  extend 
to  no  possible  case,  where  the  cause  of  action  ahall  have  originated 
before  the  ratification  of  this  constitution,  except  in  disputes  be- 
tween states  about  their  territory,  disputes  between  persons  claim- 
ing  lands  under  grants  of  different  states,  and  debta  due  to  the 
United  States. 

6«^  That  no  person  shaU  be  compeUed  to  do  military  duty,  other- 
wiae  than  by  voluntary  enlistment,  except  in  caaes  of  general  inva- 
aion;  any  thing  in  the  second  paragraph  of  the  sixth  article  of  the 
constitution,  or  any  law  made  under  the  constitution  to  th;  contrary 
notwithstanding. 

7*  That  no  capitation  or  poll-tax  ahall  ever  be  laid  by  Congress. 
8*  In  cases  of  direct  taxes.  Congress  shaU  first  make  requisitions 
on  the  several  states  to  assess,  '  >vy  and  pay  their  respective  propor- 
tions of  such  requisitions,  in  such  way  and  manner,  as  the  legisla- 
tures of  the  several  states  shall  judge  best;  and  in  case  any  state 
shall  neglect  or  refuse  to  pay  its  proportion  pursuant  to  such  requi- 
sition, then  Congress  may  assess  and  levy  snch  state's  proportion, 
together  with  interest  at  the  rate  of  six  per  cent,  per  annum,  from 
the  time  prescribed  in  such  requisition. 

9*  That  Congress  shall  lay  no  dirtct  taxes,  without  the  consent  of 
the  legislatures  of  three  fourths  of  the  states  in  the  Union. 
lO"-  That  the  journals  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Senate  and  house  of 
Bepresentatives  shall  be  published  as  soon  as  conveniently  may  be. 


686     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

at  lewt  once  in  eyery  year,  except  «ich  pitft.  thereof  «!*»»«  to 
treatiee,  »lli»ncea  or  military  operation.,  at  in  their  judgment  require 

n  "Sat  regular  itatementa  o£  the  receipt,  and  expenditure,  of  aU 

publick  monie.,  riiall  b«  publiAed  at  leart  once  a  year. 

12«'  A.  standing  armie.  in  time  of  peace  are  dangerou.  to  hber  y 

and  ought  not  to  be  kept  up,  except  in  ca«!.  of  °f  «">*y '.  "*  "  ** 

all  time,  the  mUitary  should  be  under  rtrict  robonhnation  to  the 

civil  power,  that  therefore  no  rtanding  army,  or  regular  troop.  .haU 

be  raised,  or  kept  up  in  time  of  peace. 

13«»'  That  no  monie.  be  borrowed  on  the  credit  of  the  United  State. 

without  the  aiaent  of  two  thirds  of  the  Senators  and  Reprewsntative. 

prewnt  in  each  house.  „«„»„- 

14*  That  the  Congress  shall  not  declare  war,  without  the  concur- 
rence  of  two  third,  of  the  Senator,  and  Representative,  prewnt  in 

15*  That  the  word.  "  without  the  consent  of  CongreM  "  in  the  mv- 
enth  clause  in  the  ninth  action  of  the  flrrt  article  of  the  conrtitution 

16*"C  no  "judge  of  the  rapreme  court  of  the  United  SUtes,  shall 
hold  any  other  office  under  the  United  States,  or  any  of  them;  nor 
shall  any  officer  appointed  by  Congre-,  or  by  tiie  P"«dent  «id 
Senate  of  the  United  State.,  be  permitted  to  hold  any  office  under 
the  appointment  of  any  of  the  rtatee.  .         ^     ,  ,      „ 

17*  As  a  traffick  tending  to  ertablUh  or  continue  the  df  efy  o*  »°y 
part  of  the  human  species,  is  disgraceful  to  the  cause  of  Uberty  and 
Lmnanity,  that  Congre*  AaU,  a.  «)on  a.  may  be  P«»™°^«  -"-d 
e.tabli.h  such  law.  and  regulations,  as  may  effectually  Pr-^ej*  t^e 
importation  of  slaves  of  every  description  into  the  United  StatoL 
18*  That  the  State  Legislatures  have  power  to  recaU,  when  they 
thint  it  expedient,  their  federal  senators,  and  to  send  other,  in 

i9*'That  Congress  have  power  to  establish  a  uniform  rule  of  in- 
habitancy,  or  settlement  of  the  poor  of  the  different  State,  through- 

out  the  United  States.  . 

20*  That  Congress  erect  no  company  with  exclusive  advantages  of 

21^hat'when  two  menber.  shall  move  or  caU  for  the  aye.  «md 
nays  on  any  question,  they  shall  be  entered  on  the  joumahi  of  the 

houses  respectively.  .      ^    ^      ^    «  m-™>«,*  ;» 

Done  in  Convention  at  Newport,  in  the  County  of  Newport  in 

the  St«te  of  Rhode-Island  and  Providence  Plantations,  the 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     687 

twenty  ninth  day  of  Mty,  in  the  year  of  our  Lord  one 
thoTuand  leven  hundred  and  ninety,  and  the  fourteenth 
year  of  the  independence  o^  the  United  Statea  of  America. 
By  order  of  the  Convention, 

Dambl  Owik  Preaident. 
Attest  Daniil  Updikx.  Sect', 


RESOLUTION  OP  CONGRESS  DATED  JULY  2,  1788,  SUB- 
MITTING RATIFICATIONS  OP  THE  CONSTITUTION  TO 
A  COMMITTEE.* 

WOKISDAT  JULT  2.  1788  * 

CongreM  aasembled  present  Newhanuhire  Maasachuaetta  Rhodeialand 
Connecticut  New  York  New  Jersey,  Penqyivania  Virginia  North  Car- 
olina South  Carolina  &  Georgia  &  from  Maryland  M*  Contee 

•  •  •  •  • 

The  State  of  Newhampshire  having  ratified  the  constitution  trans- 
mitted to  them  by  the  Act  of  the  28  of  Sept'  last  &  transmitted  to 
Congress  their  ratification  &  the  same  being  read,  the  president  re- 
minded Congress  ihat  thia  was  the  ninth  ratification  transmitted  ft 
laid  before  them. 
Whereupon 

On  Motion  of  MT  Clarke  seconded  by  W  Edwards 
Ordered  That  the  ratifications  of  the  constitution  of  the  United 
States  transmitted  to  Congress  be  referred  to  a  com**  to  examine  the 
same  and  report  an  Act  to  Congress  for  putting  the  said  constitution 
into  operation  in  pursuance  of  the  resolutions  of  the  late  federal  Con- 
ventioii. 

On  the  question  to  agree  to  thia  Order  the  yeas  ft  nays  being  re- 
quired by  M*  Yatea 


Newhampshire 
Massachusetts 


W  Oilman 
M*  Wingate 
M*  Dane 
M*  Otis 


ay 
ay 
ay 


»y 


«y 


■Reprinted  from  0oe«iiteiit«ry  BUtoty  of  the  ConttitutUm,  Vol.  11  (1894), 
pp.  161-162. 

•  Froa  the  "  Rough  "  Jotinia]  of  CongresB  (No.  1,  Vol.  39.) 


688 


DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 


BhodeiaUnd 
Connecticut 
New  York 
New  Jersey 

Pensylvania 

Maryland 
Virginia 

South  Carolina 

Georgia 


M'  Arnold 

HP  Hazard 
'&P  Edward! 
^M*  Huntington 

IP  L'Hommedieu 

W  Tates 

Mr  Clarke 

M*  Elmer 

Ml  D-^yton 

M*  Bingham 

M*  Beid 

M'  Contee 

M'  Oriffin 

M*  Carrington 

M'  Brown 

M*  Huger 

M*  Parker 

M»  Tucker 

M"  Few 

&P  Baldwin 


f-excuaed 


■y 


ay 


h«y 


RESOLUTION  OF  THE  CONGRESS,  OP  SEPTEMBER  13,  1788, 
FIXING  DATE  FOR  ELECTION  OP  A  PRESIDENT,  AND 
THE  ORGANIZATION  OP  THE  GOVERNMENT  UNDER 
THE  CONSTITUTION,  IN  THE  CITY  OP  NEW  YORK* 

Satoedat  Sept  13.  1788 » 

Congress  assembled  present  New  hampshire  Massachusetts  Con- 
necticut New  York  New  Jersey  Penaylvania  Virpnia  North  Caro- 
lina South  CaroUna  &  Georgia  &  from  Rhodeisland  M'  Arnold  &  from 
Delaware  M'  Kearny.     ... 

Whereas  the  Convention  assembled  in  Philadelphia  pursuant  to 
the  resolution  of  Congress  of  the  21*  of  FeV  1787  did  on  the  ir* 
of  Sept  in  the  same  year  report  to  the  United  States  in  Congress 
assembled  a  constitution  for  the  people  of  the  United  States,  Where- 
upon Congress  on  the  28  of  the  same  Sept  did  resolve  unanimously 

'Reprinted  from  Documentor;/  Biatory  of  the  Coiutitution,  Vol.  II  (18M), 

pp.  262,  263-264.  .  ,vt     i    ir  i   «o  » 

•  From  the  "  Rough  "  .Touni«l  of  C<»greM  (No.  1.  Vol.  39.) 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     689 

"That  the  nid  report  wHh  th«  rcMlntions  t  letter  ■ecompanyiiif  the 
aame  be  treimnitted  to  the  leTerKl  leguUturei  in  order  to  be  rab- 
mitted  to  a  convention  of  Delefktee  ehoeen  in  eaeh  itete  by  the  people 
thereof  in  conformity  to  the  reeolvee  of  the  conTention  made  and  pro- 
vided in  that  cut  "  And  whereaa  tlM  conatitntion  ao  nported  by  the 
Convention  and  by  Congreai  tranamitted  tr  the  aeveral  legialaturea 
haa  been  ratified  in  the  manner  therein  declared  to  be  lafficient  for 
the  eatabliahment  of  the  lame  and  mch  ratiflcationa  doly  authenticated 
have  been  received  by  Congre«  and  are  filed  in  the  Office  of  the  Secre- 
tary therefore  Beaolved  That  the  firrt  Wedneaday  in  Jan»  next 
be  the  day  for  appointing  Electora  in  the  aeveral  itatea,  which  before 
the  said  day  ehall  have  ratified  the  aaid  Conatitntion;  that  the  fint 
Wedneaday  in  feb'  next  be  tne  day  for  the  electors  to  aMemble  in 
their  reepeetive  rtatee  and  vote  for  a  preaident;  And  that  the  fint 
Wedneaday  in  March  next  be  the  time  and  the  preaent  teat  of  Caa> 
greaa  the  place  for  commencing  proceedings  nnder  the  said  con- 
atitntion— 


RESOLUTION    OP    THE    PIEST    CONQSESS    SUBMITTING 
TWELVE  AMENDMENTS  TO  THE  CONSTITUTION.' 

Congresa  of  the  United  States, 
began  and  held  at  the  City  of  New-Tork,  on 
Wednesday  the  fourth  of  March,  one  thonaand  seven  hon- 
dred  and  ei^ty  nine. 

THE  Conventions  of  a  number  of  the  States,  having  at  the  time 
of  their  adopting  the  Constitntion,  expressed  a  desire,  in  order  to 
prevent  misconatruetion  or  abuse  of  its  powers,  that  farther  declara. 
tory  and  restrictive  clauses  should  be  added:  And  as  extending  the 
ground  of  public  confidence  in  the  Government,  will  best  ensure  the 
benificent  ends  of  its  institution : 

RESOLVED  by  the  Senate  and  House  of  Representatives  of  the 
United  States  of  America,  in  Congress  assembled,  two  thirds  of  both 
Houses  concurring,  that  the  following  Articles  be  proposed  to  the 
Legislatures  of  the  several  States,  as  Amendmenta  to  the  Constitution 
of  the  United  States,  all  or  any  of  which  Articlea,  when  ratified  by 
three  fourths  of  the  said  Legislatures,  to  be  valid  to  all  intento  and 
purposes,  as  part  of  the  said  Constitution ;  viz* 


■  Reprlntod  from  Doeumtmtarjf  BUtory  of  the  Comtitutkm,  Vol.  II  (1894), 


690     DEBATES  IN  THE  PEDEBAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 

A»nci«  in  addition  to,  and  Amendment  of  the  Conititntion  of 

the  United  Stiktee  of  America,  propoeed  by  Congrea,  and  ratified  by 

the  begiaUttuea  of  the  eeveral  SUtea,  piuauant  to  the  fifth  Article  of 

the  original  Conatitation. 

Article  the  firat...AfUr  the  flret  enumeration  required  by  the  flret 
Article  of  the  Conititution,  there  ibaU  be  one  ReprwenUtive  for 
every  thirty  thouaand,  until  the  number  ahall  amount  to  one  hun- 
dred, after  which,  the  proportion  ihall  be  ao  regulated  by  Con- 
greiB,  that  there  ehall  be  not  leae  than  one  hundred  Bepreaentativee, 
nor  leaa  than  one  Bepreeentative  for  every  forty  thouaand  perwne, 
until  the  number  of  RepreeenUtivee  ahall  amount  to  two  hundred, 
after  which  the  proportion  shall  be  so  regulated  by  Congress,  that 
there  shall  not  be  leaa  than  two  hundred  RepreeenUtivee,  nor  more 
than  one  Representative  for  every  fifty  thousand  persons. 

Article  the  second. .  .No  law,  varying  th<  compensation  for  the  serv- 
ices of  the  Senators  and  Representatives,  shall  take  afreet,  until  an 
election  of  Representatives  shall  have  intervened. 

Article  the  third. . . Congress  shall  make  no  law  respecting  an  estaoUsh- 
ment  of  religion,  or  prohibiting  the  f  re«  exercise  thereof ;  or  abridg- 
ing the  freedom  of  speech,  or  of  the  press ;  or  the  right  of  the 
people  peaceably  to  assem'  e,  and  to  petition  the  Government  for 
a  redress  of  grievances. 

Article  the  fourth. .  .A  well  regulated  Militia,  being  necessary  to  the 
security  of  a  free  State,  the  right  of  the  people  to  keep  and  bear 
Arms,  shall  not  be  infringed. 

Article  the  fifth. .  .No  Soldier  shall,  in  time  of  peace  be  quartered  in 
any  house,  without  the  consent  of  the  Owner,  nor  in  time  of  war, 
but  in  a  manner  to  be  prescribed  by  law. 

Article  the  sixth, .  .The  right  of  the  people  to  be  secure  in  their  per- 
sons, houses,  papers,  and  eftecta,  against  unreasonable  searches  and 
seiiures,  shall  not  be  violated,  and  no  Warrants  shall  issue,  but 
upon  probable  cause,  supported  by  Oath  or  affirmation,  and  par- 
ticularly describing  the  place  to  be  searched,  and  the  persons  or 
things  to  be  seized. 
Article  the  seventh. .  .No  person  shall  be  held  to  answer  for  a  capital, 
or  otherwise  infamous  crime,  unless  on  a  presentment  or  indict- 
ment of  a  Grand  Jury,  except  in  cases  arising  in  the  land  or  naval 
forces,  or  in  the  Militia,  when  in  actual  service  in  time  of  War 
or  public  danger;  nor  shall  any  person  be  subject  for  the  same 
oflfenee  to  be  twice  put  in  jeopardy  of  life  or  limb ;  nor  shall  be 
compelled  in  any  criminal  case  to  be  a  witness  against  himself,  nor 
be  deprived  of  life,  liberty,  or  property,  without  due  process  of  law ; 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      691 


nor  slwll  private  proptrty  h»  tt   -q  for  pabUo  om,  without  jtut 
compenution. 

Article  the  eicbth...In  «1I  criminal  proMcntioM,  the  Mctteed  ahall 
enjoy  the  right  to  a  ipeedy  and  public  trial,  by  tn  impartial  jury 
of  Ihe  State  and  dietrict  wherein  the  crime  shall  have  been  com- 
mitted, which  diitrict  shall  have  been  previooeiy  ascertained  by 
Uw,  and  to  be  informed  of  the  nature  and  cause  of  the  accusation ; 
to  be  confronted  with  the  witnesses  against  him;  to  have  com- 
pulsory process  for  obtaining  witnesses  in  hk  favor,  and  to  have 
the  Assistance  of  Counsel  for  his  defence. 

Article  the  ninth. .  .In  Suits  at  common  law,  where  the  value  in  con- 
troversy shall  exceed  twenty  dollars,  the  ri|^t  of  trial  by  juiy 
shall  be  preserved,  and  no  fact  tried  by  a  jury,  shall  be  otherwise 
re-examined  in  any  Court  of  the  United  States,  than  according  to 
the  rules  of  the  common  law. 

Article  the  tenth. .  .Excessive  bail  shall  not  be  required,  nor  exces- 
sive fines  imposed,  nor  cruel  and  unusual  punishments  inflicted. 

Article  the  deventh. .  .The  ennmeratitm  in  the  Constitution,  of  cer- 
tain rights,  shall  not  be  construed  to  deny  or  disparage  others  re- 
tained by  the  people. 

Article  the  twelfth. .  .The  powers  not  delegated  to  the  United  States 
by  the  Constitution,  nor  prohibited  by  it  to  the  States,  are  re- 
served to  the  States  respectively,  or  to  the  people. 

FuDxucK  AuocsTtTS  MtTRUtmcio  Speaker 

of  the  House  of  Representatives. 
John  Aoaics,  T^ee-President  of  the  United  States, 

and  President  of  the  Senate. 
ATnsT, 

John  Bbcklit,  Clerk  of  the  House  of  RepresenUtives. 
Sam.  A.  Otm  Secretary  of  the  Senate.^ 


'  The  propoaed  aBMndinenU  wr  i  tranunittad  to  the  legiiUturei  of  the  mt- 
«nl  Statet,  upon  which  the  follow  if  aetioo  waa  taken: 

By  th0  8ttt»  of  Nme  B»mpakire.—AgtttA  to  the  whole  of  the  aaid  amend- 
■Mnta,  ejKept  the  Sd  article. 

Bp  tk»  But*  of  Ntit  Tork.—Agnfi  u,  tha  whole  »{  the  aaid  anendmenta. 
•soapt  the  2d  article. 

mtf  tin  Stat0  of  i>WHiM^faiMa.— Agreed  to  the  3d,  4  ' ,  .ith,  6th,  7th,  8th,  0th. 
10th,  nth,  and  12th  articfea  of  the  Mid  anendmei  ta. 

Bp  tk«  Btato  of  DeiMcafw.— Agreed  to  the  who^e  of  the  aaid  ameadinenta,  as- 
capt  the  1  at  article. 

Sy  ik*  Btat*  of  Mmryltmi.    Agreed  to  the  whole  of  the  aaid  twelre  amend- 


By  «k«  BtaU  of  Bouik  CoivImm.— Agreed  to  the  whole  aaid  twel*e  amend- 

BMBta. 

By  the  BiaU  of  North  Carolina.— AfvteA  to  the  whole  of  the  aaid  twelve 
•Dandmeota. 


692     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

THE  FIBST  TEN  AMENDMENTS  TO  THE  CONSTITUTION. 

Abticu  I. 

Congrew  shaU  make  no  law  respecting  an  establiahment  of  religion, 
or  prohibiting  the  free  exercise  thereof;  or  abridging  the  freedom  of 
Bpeceli,  or  of  the  preau;  or  the  right  of  the  people  peaceably  to 
auemble,  and  to  petition  the  Government  for  a  redreaa  of  gnevances. 

Abticle  II. 

A  well  regulated  Militia,  being  necessary  to  the  security  of  a  free 
State,  the  right  of  the  people  to  keep  and  bear  Anns,  shall  not  be 

infringed. 

ARTiciiE  in. 

No  Soldier  shaU,  in  time  of  peace  be  quartered  in  any  house,  with- 
out the  consent  of  the  Owner,  nor  in  time  of  war,  but  in  a  manner 
to  be  prescribed  by  law. 

Abiicle  IV. 

The  right  of  the  people  to  be  secure  in  their  persons,  houses, 
papers,  and  eflPects,  against  unreasonable  searches  and  seizures,  shall 
not  be  violated,  and  no  Warrants  shaU  issue,  but  upon  probable 
cause,  supported  by  Oath  or  affirmation,  and  particularly  descnbmg 
the  place  to  be  searched,  and  the  persons  or  things  to  be  seized. 

Abticlk  V. 

No  person  shaU  be  held  to  answer  for  a  capital,  or  otherwise 
infamous  crime,  unless  on  a  presentment  or  indictment  of  a  Grand 
Juiy,  except  in  cases  arising  in  the  land  or  naval  forces,  or  in  the 
Militia,  when  in  actual  service  in  time  of  War  or  public  danger;  nor 

By  the  State  of  Rhode  hUmd  attd  Providenee  Plamtatione.—AgneA  to  tlie 
''Vt^^rait  Ty^'j^^-J^tr^  to  th.  who.,  of  the  «.M  «.«.d»«t.. 
•'"C^L'«<S«  y vfe»*..-Ag«ed  to  the  whol.  of  th.  -Id  tw.W.  artlcl... 
'""5Sr^S^^lr•;.«'^idSVtl'*l't..  of  MM-chusett..  Co««eti«.t.  0«.rg.. 

.ndll^nTo.  then.  «-PJ^ '  ^^^ V^' C^«^^i^*  m^C^^ 
the  gUte  legulaturefc     (Journal  of  the  Federal  Vonvtntioit,  ww,  oappwiiw-^ 

p.  481.) 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     693 

■hall  any  penon  be  subject  for  the  tame  offence  to  be  twice  put  in 
jeopardy  of  life  or  limb;  nor  shall  be  compelled  in  any  criminal  case 
to  be  a  witneas  against  himself,  nor  be  deprived  of  life,  liberty,  or 
property,  without  due  proces*  of  law;  nor  shaU  private  property  be 
taken  for  public  use,  without  just  campauatim. 

Abticlk  VI. 

In  all  criminal  prosecutions,  the  accused  shall  enjoy  the  right  to 
a  speedy  and  public  trial,  by  an  impartial  jury  of  the  SUte  and  dis- 
trict wherein  the  crime  shall  have  been  committed,  which  district 
shaU  have  been  previously  ascertained  by  Uw,  and  to  be  informed  of 
the  nature  and  cause  of  the  aceuaation;  to  be  confronted  with  the 
witnesses  against  him;  to  have  compulaory  process  for  obtaining  wit- 
nesses in  his  favor,  and  to  have  the  Assistance  of  Counsel  for  hia 

defence. 

AmcLB  VII. 

In  Suits  at  common  law,  where  the  value  in  controver«y  shall 
exceed  twenty  dollars,  the  right  of  trial  by  jury  shall  be  preserved, 
and  no  fact  tried  by  a  jury,  shaU  be  otherwise  re-examined  in  any 
Court  of  the  United  States,  than  according  to  the  rules  of  the  common 

law. 

Abticlb  VUL 

Excessive  bail  shall  not  be  required,  nor  ezcesnve  fines  imposed, 
nor  cruel  and  unusual  punishments  inflicted. 

Abticlb  IX. 

The  enumeration  in  the  Cmwtitntion,  of  certain  rights,  shall  not 
be  construed  to  deny  or  disparage  others  retained  by  the  peoide. 

Abticlb  X. 

The  powers  not  delegated  to  the  United  States  by  the  Constitu- 
tion, nor  prohibited  by  it  to  the  States,  are  reserved  to  the  States 
respectively,  or  to  the  people. 


m 

'li'M 


694     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OF  1787 


SUBSEQUENT  AMENDMENTS  TO  THE  CONSTITUTION 

AvnoLX  XI.^ 

The  Jadieial  power  of  the  United  States  shall  not  be  construed  to 
extend  to  any  salt  iu  law  or  equity,  commenced  or  prosecated  against 
one  of  the  United  States  by  Citizens  of  another  State,  or  by  Citizens 
or  Subjects  of  any  Foreign  State. 

abticle  zn.* 

The  Electors  shall  meet  in  their  respective  states,  and  vote  by 
ballot  for  President  and  Vice-President,  one  of  whom,  at  least,  shall 
not  be  an  inhabitant  of  the  same  state  with  themselves;  they  shall 
name  in  their  ballots  the  person  voted  for  as  President,  and  in  dis- 
tinct ballots  the  person  voted  for  as  Vice-President,  and  they  shall 
make  distinct  lists  of  all  persons  voted  for  as  President,  and  of  all 
persons  voted  for  as  Vice-President,  and  of  the  number  of  votes  for 
each,  which  lists  they  shall  sign  and  certify,  and  transmit  sealed  to 
the  seat  of  the  government  of  the  United  States,  directed  to  the  Presi- 
dent of  the  Senate ; — The  President  of  the  Senate  shall,  in  the  presence 
of  the  Senate  and  House  of  Representatives,  open  all  the  certificates 
and  the  votes  shall  then  be  counted;— The  person  having  the  greatest 
number  of  votes  for  President,  shall  be  the  President,  if  such  number 
be  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  Electors  appointed ;  and  if  no 
person  have  such  majority,  then  from  the  persons  having  the  highest 
numbers  not  exceeding  three  on  the  list  of  those  voted  for  as  President, 
the  House  of  Representatives  shall  choose  immediately,  by  ballot,  the 
President.  But  in  choosing  the  President,  the  votes  shall  be  taken  by 
states,  the  representation  from  each  state  having  one  vote;  a  quorum 
for  this  purpose  shall  consist  of  a  membor  or  members  from  two-thirds 
of  the  states,  and  a  majority  of  all  the  states  shall  be  necessary  to  a 
choice.  And  if  the  House  of  Representatives  shall  not  choose  a  Prea- 
dent  whenever  the  right  of  choice  shall  devolve  upon  them,  before  the 
fourth  day  of  March  next  following,  then  the  Vice-President  shall  act 
as  President,  as  in  the  case  of  the  death  or  other  constitutional  dis- 
ability of  the  President.    The  person  having  the  greatest  number  of 

*  The  eleTenth  amendment  wm  declared  in  a  neeiage  from  the  Pretident  to 
Congress,  dated  the  8th  of  January,  1798,  to  have  been  ratified  by  the  legislatures 
of  three-fourths  of  the  States. 

*  The  twelfth  amendment,  in  lieu  of  the  original  third  {mragraph  of  the  first 
oection  of  the  second  article,  was  declared  in  a  proclamation  of  the  Secretary  of 
State,  dated  the  26th  of  September,  1804,  to  have  been  ratified  by  the  legislatures 
of  three-fovrth*  of  the  States. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS      695 

votM  as  Vice-Pniident,  ahill  be  the  Vice-President,  if  such  number 
be  s  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  Electors  appointed,  and  if  no 
person  have  a  majority,  then  from  the  two  highest  numbers  on  the 
list,  the  Senate  ahidl  choose  the  Vice-President ;  a  quorum  for  the  pur- 
pose shall  consist  of  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number  of  Senators,  and 
a  majority  of  the  whole  number  shall  be  necessary  to  a  choice.  But 
no  person  constitutionally  ineligible  to  the  ofSce  of  President  shall 
be  eligible  to  that  of  Vice-President  of  the  United  States. 


AanoLi  Xin.^ 

SiOTiON  1.  Neither  slavery  nor  involuntary  servitude  except  as  a 
punishment  for  crime  whereof  the  party  shall  have  been  duly  convicted, 
shall  exist  within  the  United  States,  or  any  place  subject  to  their 
jurisdiction. 

SionoN  2.  Congress  shall  have  power  to  enforce  this  article  hy 
Appropriate  legislation. 

Abticl*  XIV.» 

Sbotion  1.  All  persons  bom  or  naturalized  in  the  United  States, 
and  subject  to  the  jurisdiction  thereof,  are  citixens  of  the  United 
States  and  of  the  State  wherein  they  reside.  No  State  shall  make  or 
enforce  any  law  which  shall  abridge  the  privileges  or  immunities  of 
citizens  of  the  United  States;  nor  shall  any  State  deprive  any  person 
of  life,  liberty,  or  property,  without  due  process  of  law;  nor  deny 
to  any  person  within  its  jurisdiction  the  equal  protection  of  the  laws. 

SxcnoH  2.  Bepresentatives  shall  be  apportioned  among  the  sev- 
eral States  according  to  their  respective  numbers,  counting  the  whole 
number  of  persons  in  each  State,  excluding  Indians  not  taxed.  But 
when  the  right  to  vote  at  any  election  for  the  choice  of  electors  for 
President  and  Vice  President  of  the  United  States,  Bepresentatives  in 
Congress,  the  Executive  and  Judicial  oiBcers  of  a  State,  or  the  mem- 
bers of  the  Legislature  thereof,  is  denied  to  any  of  the  male  inhabit- 
ants of  such  State,  being  twenty-one  years  of  age,  and  citizens  of  the 
United  States,  or  in  any  way  abridged,  except  for  participation  in 
rebellion,  or  other  crime,  the  basis  of  representation  therein  shall  be 
reduced  in  the  proportion  which  the  number  of  such  male  citizens 
shall  bear  to  the  whole  number  of  male  citizens  twenty-one  years  of 
age  in  such  State. 

*  Tb*  tklrtcenth  unendmmit  was  declared,  in  a  proclamation  of  the  Secretary 
of  State,  dated  the  I8th  of  December,  IMS,  to  have  been  ratified  by  the  legii. 
latnrea  of  tventy-ieren  of  the  thirty-iix  SUtaa. 

*  The  fourteenth  amendment  waa,  in  a  proelamatiim  of  the  Secretary  of  State, 
dated  the  88th  of  July,  18«8,  daeUred  to  have  bean  ratified  hy  the  lei^tures  of 
thirty  of  the  thirty-iix  Sutea. 


M 


.i 


696     DEBATES  IN  THE  FEDERAL  CONVENTION  OP  1787 

SicnoN  8.  No  penon  ihaU  be  a  Senator  EepmenUtive  in  Con- 
gnm,  or  elector  of  Prerident  and  Vice  Prerident,  or  hold  any  office, 
civil  cr  military,  under  the  United  SUtee,  or  under  any  State,  who, 
having  previoualy  taken  an  oath,  as  a  member  of  Congren,  or  aa  an 
officer  of  the  United  Stotee,  or  as  a  member  of  any  Stete  legisUture,  or 
as  an  ezeeative  or  judicial  officer  of  any  Stote,  to  support  the  Con- 
stitution of  the  United  States,  shall  have  engaged  in  insurrection  or 
rebellion  against  the  same,  or  given  aid  or  ccwafort  to  the  enemies 
thereof.  But  Congress  may  by  a  vote  of  two-thirds  of  each  House,  re- 
move such  disability. 

SwmoN  4.  The  validity  of  the  public  debt  of  the  United  States, 
authorized  by  law,  including  debts  incurred  for  payment  of  pensions 
and  bounties  for  services  in  suppreaing  insurrection  or  rebellion, 
shall  not  be  questioned.  But  neither  the  United  States  nor  any  State 
jhfn  assume  or  psy  any  debt  or  obligation  incurred  in  aid  of  insur- 
rection or  rebelUon  against  the  United  States,  or  any  claim  for  the 
loss  or  emancipation  of  any  slave;  but  all  such  debts,  obligations  and 
claims  shall  be  held  illegal  and  void. 

SicnoN  5.  The  Congress  shall  have  power  to  eaforee,  by  appro- 
priate legislation,  the  provisions  of  this  article. 

AxncLtXV} 
Section  1.  The  rij^t  of  dtiiens  of  the  United  States  to  vote  shall 
not  be  denied  or  abridged  by  the  United  States  or  by  any  State  on 
account  of  race,  color,  or  previous  condition  of  servitude. 

Section  2.  The  Congress  shall  have  power  to  enforce  this  article  by 

appropriate  legislation.  

AkicliXVI.* 

The  Congress  shall  have  power  to  lay  and  collect  taxes  on  incomes, 
from  whatever  source  derivckl,  without  apportionment  among  the  sev- 
eral States,  and  without  regard  to  any  census  or  enumeration. 

Articlk  XVIL* 
"'  The  Senate  of  the  United  States  shall  be  composed  of  two  Sena- 
tors from  each  SUte,  elected  by  the  people  thereof,  for  six  years;  and 

>  The  flUeenth  amendment  wb»  declared,  in  a  proclamation  of  the  Secretary 
of  SUte.  dated  March  SO,  1870,  to  have  been  ratified  by  the  legialatuws  of  twarty- 
nine  of  the  thirtyaeven  Statea.  ^  .     *u    a 

■The  sixteenth  amendment  waa  dwdared  in  aa  taaovaemMat  by  tha  Secre- 
tary  of  SUte,  dated  February  26,  191»,  to  haw  been  ratified  by  tha  legUlatnrea 
of  thirty-eight  of  the  forty-eight  SUtea.  ^  .    av    o 

•  The  MTenteenth  amendment  waa  daebrad,  in  an  announcement  br  the  Secre- 
tary of  SUte,  dated  May  SI,  1913,  to  have  been  ratified  by  the  legUlaturca  of 
Ihirty-aix  of  the  forty-eight  SUtea. 


CONSTITUTION,  RATIFICATION,  AMENDMENTS     697 

each  Senator  shall  have  one  YOte.  The  electors  in  each  State  shall 
have  the  qnaliflcationa  requisite  for  electors  of  the  most  nnmerous 
branch  of  the  State  legislatures. 

*'>  When  vacancies  happen  in  the  representation  of  any  State  in 
the  Senate,  the  ezecative  authority  of  sneh  State  shall  issue  writs  of 
election  to  fill  such  vacancies:  Provided,  That  the  legislature  of  any 
State  may  empower  the  executive  thereof  to  make  temporary  appoint- 
ments until  the  people  fill  the  vacancies  by  election  as  the  legislature 
may  direct. 

">  This  amendment  shall  not  be  so  construed  as  to  affect  the  elec- 
tion or  term  of  any  Senator  chosen  before  it  becomes  valid  as  part 
of  the  Constitution. 

AsncLC  XVni.* 

Section  1.  After  one  year  from  the  ratification  of  this  article  the 
manufacture,  sale,  or  transportation  of  intoxicating  liquors  within, 
the  importation  thereof  into,  or  the  exportation  thereof  from  the 
United  States  and  all  territory  subject  to  the  jurisdiction  thereof  for 
beverage  purposes  is  hereby  prohibited. 

Section  2.  The  Congress  and  the  several  States  shall  have  con- 
current power  to  enforce  this  article  by  appropriate  legislation. 

Section  3.  This  article  shall  be  inoperative  unless  it  shall  have 
been  ratified  as  an  amendment  to  the  Constitution  by  the  legislatures  of 
the  several  States,  as  provided  in  the  Constitution,  within  seven  years 
from  the  date  of  the  submission  hereof  to  the  States  by  the  Congress. 

'  The  eigliteentb  Mnendment  wa«  decUred,  in  an  annouoecment  tnr  the  Aetins 
SccreUry  of  SUte,  dated  January  29,  1919.  to  hare  been  rstiflad  bv  the  leciila- 
turet  of  thirt7-(U  of  the  forty^^t  Statee.  ^ 


INDEX 


INDEX 


Aeeount  of  •speoditorM,  propoMd  to  b« 
puUlihwl,  0«6i  fiom  time  to  time 
■gned  to,  M7. 

Act*  of  Ht»tM,  Butiul  recoffnition  of, 
by  Statn,  cominittMl,  482. 

Adkina,  John  QniBcjr,  letters  to,  from 
CltarlM  PlMfcaey,  raUting  to  the 
Pinckner  pUn,  MS;  text  of  plan 
•ufamitted  to,  hf  ChAtlM  PlnekBey, 
0On. 

Addree*  to  people,  referred  to  Com- 
mittee on  etyle,  644;  propoead, 
867;  rejected,  568. 

Adjournment  of  legliUture,  proriuon 
for,  881. 

AdmiMioD  of  new  State*.  S8,  673;  de- 
bated. 487;  agrewl  to,  488;  not  to 
be  made  out  of  old  Statea,  488; 
clanae  aneed  to,  408. 

Admiiaion  ofState^  baele  for,  813. 

Amendment*  to  ooaatitntion,  prorleion 
for,  poatponed,  68;  agreed  to,  304; 
metlMMl  of  making,  agreed  to,  495; 
convention  for,  reoonaidered.  639; 
clanae  agreed  to,  640,  678. 

iUipointmenta,  power  to  make,  529; 
motion  that  none  be  made  to  any 
office*  not  created  hj  law,  lo*t, 
535;  to  be  referred  to  State  ezecn- 
tlTc*,  rejected,  470;  to  office,  by 
Sennta,  465;  may  be  reatad  in 
lower  officer*,  572. 

Armiea,  power  to  raiae,  debated,  483; 
limit  in  time  of  peace,  rejected, 
424;  appropriation  for,  to  be 
limite^  618;  pracantlim  againct, 
rejected,  666. 

Baldwin,  Abraham,  Qa.,  attend*  con- 
vention, 84;  think*  Senate  should 
repreaent  property,  190;  on  com- 
mittee on  representation  in  Senate, 
206;  favors  ineligibility  of  mem- 
ber* of  legialature  to  office*,  605; 
think*  member*  of  first  Con«e** 
may  create  oOcee  tor  themeelve*, 
662;  would  dieeriminate  against 
foreigners,  388;  on  grand  eomuiit- 
tee  on  a**nmptiott  of  State  debt*, 
483;  defend*  (lavery,  446;  on  com- 
mittee on  navigation  acta,  448; 
move*  amendment  relative  to  im- 
posts,  468 ;  clause  to  Western  coun- 


try, 493;   OB  commltta*  on  poat- 
poned   measurss,    508;    approve* 
mod*    of    election    of    Prealdent, 
610. 
Baakrupteie*,  uniform  law*,  488,  503, 

clause  agreed  to,  604. 
Ba**ett,  Richard,  Del.,  attend*.  17. 
Bedford,  Gunning,  DeU  attend*.  18; 
favors  abort  term  for  executive, 
40;  favor*  r*moval  of  esaeutive  on 
petition  of  SUto  legialature*,  46; 
oppo***  reitrlction*  on  legielature. 
63;  oppoae*  power  of  l^lalatur* 
to  negative  State  law*.  78;  in- 
■i*t*  on  right*  of  amall  State*. 
198;  on  committee  on  representa- 
tion in  Senate.  805;  moves  daflnl- 
tloB  of  power  of  legislature,  266; 
would  increa**  rapraaentation, 
668;  daniea  desire  for  foreign 
help,  210;  opposes  apnoiatmsnt  of 
Judges  by  executive,  870;  opposes 
provision  against  army,  666. 
Bill  of  Rights,  proposed.  656;  re- 
jected. 6iB7. 
BiUs  of  attsiadMT,  449;   forbiddoi  to 

SUtes,  667. 
BUls  of  credit,  478;  forhtddan  to  States, 

667. 
Bills    for    revenue,    to    originate    in 

House,  518. 
Bills,  originating,  404;  qnastion  post- 

ponsd,  438. 
Bills,    return    of,    ten    days    allowed, 

amendment  lost,  669. 
Blair,  John.  Va..  attends,  17. 
Bloont,  WUliam,  N.  C,  attends,  131; 
annonnoea  he  will  sign  constitu- 
tion, 681. 
Brearley,  David,  K.  J.,  attends,  17; 
seconds  rssumptiott  of  clause  re- 
lating to  rule  of  suffrage  in 
legisiature,  80;  moves  New  Hamp- 
shire be  urged  to  send  delegates, 
190;  on  committee  on  representa- 
tion, 226;  opposes  election  of 
President  by  joint  ballot,  461; 
on  committee  on  postponed  mea- 
sures, 608 ;  reports  from  committee 
on  postponed  measnres,  502; 
rqxtrts  from  oommltte*  of  eleven, 
506,  518;  would  strike  out  clause 
for  amendments,  575. 


701 


702 


INDEX 


Broom*.  J««ob.  D.I..  •tt«idi.  17t  Utot. 
term    durlnj    good    b«h«»toT    for 
"McntlTe,  271 ;  tccoiMli  »l<'Ctloii  of 
M»cutW»  by  .lector..   ^"-.^^^ 
ntlo  •lectori  h«  commlttwJ,  280  i 
wcond*  motion  to  poatponc  quM- 
tion   of   tnellgJblUtjr   of  MtcutWe 
for   i^cond   term,   SlBi    »«>"■•   ^ 
r»fer  term  »nd  dutlct  of  Preiident 
to  committw.  483;  thinki  eiecutWo 
may  correspond  with  SUtca,  470; 
McoBdf  motion  for  nln»  ycari  for 
Bminte.  1«7;  f»vor»  •qwl  Tot*  in 
Senate.    230;     think*    legiiUture 
may  pny  themieWei,  408;  lecondt 
motion   to  make  wagei  tame  for 
both  branchea  of  legiaUture,  403 1 
•ceonda  motion  for  aole  power  oret 
treaion  and  lenialature,  433;   aec- 
ondi  power  in  Tegialature  to  nega- 
tive State  lawa.  4B6;  oppoaet  ad- 
journment. 262. 
Bntler.    Pierce,    8.    C,    attmda,    17; 
favora    aingle   execntiTe,    4B;    op- 
poaea  ab»lute  negative  of  execu- 
live  on  lawi,  83;  movet  power  of 
eaecntivc   to    auapend    lawa.    66; 
oppoaea  abort  term  for  executive, 
«8;    favore  election  of  executive 
by  electora,  821;  movea  to  «»»"»« 
cfauae  relating  to  executive,  824; 
approvea     mode     of    election     of 
Preeident,  600;  thinka  election  by 
people  to  legialatura  impracticable, 
33;    aoka  ratio   of   repreaentation 
in   Senate,  70;   oppoaea  power  of 
legislature  to  negative  State  lawa, 
79;    favors    wealth    aa    baais    of 
WDre«*nUt5on,      84,     214,      22«; 
moves  addition  of  qttoUs  of  con- 
tribution   to   motion    relating   to 
ri'presentation,  88;  postponed.  88; 
moves  that  Senate  members  serve 
without  salary,  M;   rejected,  JMI; 
moves    national    compensation    of 
lenslature.  149;  thinks  Ineligibility 
of    memi)er«    of    first    branch    of 
liirislature  to  ofScea  necessary,  152; 
moves   to   consider   repreaentation 
in  Senate,  1»4;  opposes  ineligibility 
of   Senators  to  State  offices,   173; 
proposes  three  years'  inhabitancy 
for  memb«rs  of  legislature,   357; 
would     exclude     foreigner*     from 
Senate,      3«8;      "oi*»„_E«?}f"«; 
ment  of  question  of  eligibility  ol 
members  of  legislature,  401;  favors 
payment  of  legislature  by  States, 
401 ;  agrees  treaties  of  peace  ought 
to  be  made  with  majority  of  Sen- 
ate,  530;   thinks   Congrens   should 
consent  to  Inspection  duties,  568; 
insists  blacks  should  count  equally 
with    whites,    233;    insists   slave* 


Mual   In   labor  to  frecoMn,  S84; 
inslsU  blacks  be  eouatsd  in  repre- 
senUtlon,  241 ;  ssconds  proposition 
of  three-flftha  blaeka  in  represenU- 
tlon.  243;   insists  on  security  for 
•lave*,  280;  oppose*  inferior  tribu- 
nals   In    natkmal    Judiciary,    «1; 
avrs     no     necessity     for     inferior 
Judicial   trlbnnala,   278;    approvea 
money  billa  originating  In  Senato, 
97;     opposca    originating     money 
bills  In  first  brancli  of  legUlaturt. 
208;    favors  money  bills   In   first 
branch,  862;  opposes  power  to  emit 
bills  of  credit,  418;  oopose*  paper 
money,  414;  mov*a  rule  for  atten- 
dance  of  membera  and  secrecy.  21 ; 
is  willing  to  give  power  to  national 
government,  M;  move*  to  consider 
national     government,     28;     asks 
extent  of  fimiUtion  of  Stote*,  M; 
fears  power*  of  Stat**  may  be  de- 
*troyed,  86;  think*  fit  per*on*  for 
ofBce*  will  be  found,   184;   move* 
increase    in    repre*MiUtlon    from 
South  Carolina,  228;   aaks  defini- 
tion of  power  to  legislate  where 
Statea  are  Incompetent,  260;  thinka 
capital  should  be  fixed  In  constitu- 
tion,  332;    oppose*   restriction   of 
franchise,  881;  would  bar  foreign- 
er*;  888;   oppo*e*  war  power   in 
Senate,   419;    favora   power   over 
militia,   426;   favor*   taxation   by 
repreaentation,  487;  oppose*  power 
over  exports,  489;  oppoaed  to  taxa- 
tion of  export*.  446;   fear*  pay- 
ment of  debta  to  holdera  of  certifi- 
cate*, 487;   would  preeerve  value 
of  debt*,   466;    on   committee  on 
impo*t*,     470;      move*     fugitive 
elave*  be  delivered  up,  481 ;  wojrid 
allow  navigation  acta  by  majority. 
484;     opposes    creation     of    new 
States    within    old,    488;     favor* 
nine  States  for  ratification,  496; 
on  committee  on  poatponed  mea- 
sure*, 602. 

Canals,  power  to  cut,  propoeed,  8M; 
rejected.  664. 

Capital.     See  Seat  of  government. 

Capitation  tax,  referred  to  cenmnlttee, 
448;  proposed  to  prohibit,  660. 

Captures  on  land  and  water,  rule* 
asreed  to,  415. 

Carroll,  Daniel.  Md.,  attend*.  223; 
■econds  motion  for  election  of 
electors  for  executive  by  lot,  317; 
moves  election  of  President  by 
the  people,  461;  seconds  mot'on 
that  President  be  elected  by 
electors  chosen  by  the  people. 
463;  on  committee  on  repreaenta- 


INDEX 


703 


tlon,  IM;  4mIiU  ffOftiHy  of 
troto  ptr  MPlt*  la  B«Mt«,  tIO( 
Ulakt  tw»4kirdf  ■kould  esptl 
mmban  «f  kgtiUtar*,  37S|  pro- 
poM*  At*  ywa*  eltlwMkip  for 
flnt  bnweh  of  IqitaUtur*.  SMi 
kMt,  SMi  opPOMt  eoaipcMBtloa  of 
nrabhti  of  irgtstotim  by  StatM, 
402)  thiaks  Snwtv  ouRht  aot  to 
ba  dtpnidMit  on  HUtM,  403; 
favor*  InerMMd  reprvMBtfttlon, 
679;  f»Tor»  prot#ctiiig  StatM 
•ipiinit  viulenci',  Sfll :  oppow*  dl- 
nct  Uxation  by  rf>prrMntation, 
S17 ;  would  dliqiMklify  debtor*  from 
oflkc,  3S0i  move*  rlitht  of  dl*MBt 
In  legidature,  879 ;  f*»r*  N*w  York 
win  Tie  iMt  of  ■oremment,  388  ( 
think*  money  bllU  produce  con- 
troverty  1b  legtilature*,  8S4; 
more*  poetponcment  quectloB  of 
BcgsUTe  OB  tawa,  407 ;  think*  more 
than  a  majority  neeeaiary  to  lay 
taxes,  410;  favor*  tax  oa  ezporta, 
418;  oppoaaa  taxatkm  by  rmream- 
tation,  4SS;  provlsioB  againat  ea 
po»t  faeto  law*  n«ce**ary,  449; 
move*  impartial  treatment  of  porta, 
409;  OB  committee  on  impoeta, 
470;  think*  new  State*  may  be 
created  In  old,  489;  move*  to  pre- 
serve natkmal  right  to  Western 
country,  498;  move*  to  poatpom 
ratifleatloB  eUuae,  495;  think* 
unanimous  vota  neeeaaary  to  ratify 
eonatitntkm,  490;  iBsUta  vessel 
must  clear  from  ita  owb  Stata, 
601;  oB  committee  on  postponed 
measures,  608;  proposes  address 
to  people,  607;  moves  power  of 
State  (o  lay  dutien  on  tonnage, 

Censui,  propoasd  ••  l»jl»  *»»  "P*^ 
sentation,  231 ;  Mriodieal  dlaeuMed, 
231;  periodical  agreed  to,  840, 
260;  approved,  M8;  six  y^ 
agreed  to,  246;  SO  year*  rejected, 
246;  10  years  agrssd  to,  246;  first, 
434. 

Clymer,  George,  Penn.,  attends,  18;  on 
grand  committee  on  asaumptioB 
of  State  debt*.  423;  propose*  taxa- 
tion on  export*  for  revenue,  441; 
on  commitlee  on  navigation  acta, 
448;  objecta  to  u**  of  word 
"*Iave»,''4«8;  oppoaes  encourage- 
ment of  western  country,  480; 
favor*  ni.vigation  acts,  484;  favors 
ratification  by  majority,  408;  ob- 
ject* to  Senate's  power,  520; 
thinks  Congreei  need  not  spprove 
constitution,  643. 

Coining,  power  of,  agreed  to,  412. 

Commerce,   regulation   of,   agreed   to, 


411)  diwwasd,  601;  clsaraM*  of 
vssael*  agrssd   to,   608. 

CcuMPlssioBi,  488. 

CoMBlttss  of  detail,  rtMlutioB*  refer- 
red to,  SSSi  report,  MT;  report 
debatad,   S4«. 

CovmittM  of  whola,  Mseta,  87. 

Comaltto*  en  style,  fsvort,  546;  re- 
port compared  with  plan  agncd 
to,  869. 

Coagrees,  8m  alio  L*gi*lator*;  eon- 
tinulBf  of,  agreed  to,  68;  eontinu- 
aae*  of,  debated,  280;  dieagreed  to, 
880. 

Coastitutioa,  provision  for  amending, 
di*cu***d,  89;  postponed,  90; 
member*  of  State  government*  to 
give  oath  to  observe,  considered, 
90;  agreed  to,  91;  to  be  referred 
to  people  for  ratiflcatton,  agreed  to, 
91;  committee,  311;  committee  oa 
detail,  317;  referred  to  committao 
on  detail,  332;  to  be  supreme  law, 
agreed  to,  456;  to  bs  laid  before 
Ccagress,  499;  when  to  go  into 
effect,  601;  mode  of  ratifleatlon, 
clause  agreed  to,  543;  a*  reported 
by  eoBUnlttce  on  ityle,  646;  pro- 
v1*ion  for  ratifleatlon,  580;  en- 
gro**ed,  read,  677;  (ining  1^ 
Statsa,  agreed  to,  688;  aining  of, 
683;  copy  of  paper  aent  to  James 
Madison  by  Alexander  Hamilton, 
embodyiM  the  latter'a  prinelplea 
for  a,  808. 
CoBtraeta,  impairment  of,  forbidden 
to  States,  6«7;  proposed  to  b* 
forMddsB  to  Coagreaa,  667. 
CoBtroverale*   betweai    State*,    provi- 

*loB  for,  coB*ldercd,  460. 
ConventioB,     meeta,     17;     rule*,     18; 
goes  into  eammittao  of  whole,  87; 
Toagor    aaaaions   agreed    to,    423; 
hours  of  meeting,  449;   hours  of 
BMetlBg   chaBged,    486;    expenses 
of,  611,  6IS;  sseoBd,  rejected.  677; 
adjonras,  68S. 
Copyrli^t,  power  of.  480. 
Copyrl^ta  and  pateata,   618;    clause 

Conndl"Tf    State,   proposed,   488. 
Council,  privy,  for  Pretudent,  provided, 

448. 
Counterfeiting,  punlshmeBt  for,  418. 
Credit  bills,  power  objected  to,  418. 
Creditors,   regulatioa,  481. 

Davie,  William  Richardson,  N.  C,  at- 
tends, 17;  move*  impeachability 
of  executive,  48;  favors  impeach- 
ability of  executive,  890;  proposes 
eight  years'  term  for  executive^ 
814;  favors  seven  year**  term  for 
executive   and    ineligibility,    826: 


7M 


INDEX 


tklBiM  B«»to  too  l*r«».  1«»:  <« 
eommtttM  on  r»pfw»«Utlp»  uj 
ScnaU.  208  i  Uron  waalth  Md 
nciabwa  m  liMto  of  rtprMtata- 
tkM,  aiftt  iMlaU  OB  raprMrnuttoB 
(orblBelw.  242. 
OBTtoB,  JontihBB.  N.  J .  Btt.^  IJJt 
oppoM*  •l«rtloB  ol  PTrtWwt  tar 
Unot,  461 1  mont  toU  »or  Preii- 
dtBt  by  BUU«,  4M;  oppoM*  oo«- 
pniMtlon  of  8fMU>r«  by  SUtM. 
172)  thinki  Tottag  in  IcgUUtur* 
■bottld  bf  hf  SUtw,  17(1  oppo;^ 
proportloMi  reprMTBUtion,  l»»i 
oppoM*  •!•»•  r«>fti«it»tlon,  361) 
favoM  »nBy,  484)  biotm  p«rtw 
BBtioaal  control  over  militU,  492) 
oppoMd  to  ualformlty  in  mlUtla. 
4BS)  on  eommittw  ob  impotti, 
470)  moTM  rktiflcBtloB  by  ten 
SUtM,  498)  oppoMd  to  re<julrtnf 
two-thJrdi  of  8«B«te  to  owke 
trMtiet,  ess-  opjKMM  mothm  to 
permit  SUtes  to  far  tsport  dutiM 
to  p«y  charge*.  667. 
Dcbtori.  dlMualificBtlon  tor  oOe*,  827, 

830;  rejcctwl,  831. 
DtbU.  •uumptioB  of  State,  |rBDd  com- 
mittee on  appointed,  423)  aMump- 
tlon  of  authoriied,  438;  provUion 
for   paymi-nt.   448)    dUchari*   of, 
coniidcred.  460;  payment  of;  ♦«»; 
TaMdIty  of,  agreid  to,  46T{  pay- 
ment of  old,  rejected,  467. 
Delaware,  credential!  of  depntiea,  18 1 
deleaate*  threaten  to  withdraw,  30) 
forblda  delemtea  changing  rule  of 
■uffrage  in  ConrnM,  30;  attitude 
diecuiaed,  30,  31. 
Delivrry  up  of  penona  bound  to  lenrlce, 

agreed   to,  488. 
Departmeate,  beada  of  to  give  opiniona 

to  Preeident,  631,  632. 
Diclcinaon,  John,  Del.,  attenda.  21 )  pro- 
poac*  removal  of  executive  on  peti- 
tion from  State  legUlaturea,  46) 
move*    removability    of    executive 
by  hjri«l«ture  on  requect  of  State 
legislatures.  47;  favori  election  of 
executive  bv  people,  323;  movea  to 
reitrict   Pfeeidenfe  power   of  ap- 
pointmenti,  464)  object*  to  Preai- 
dent    of    Senate    ae   aucceaaor    to 
PreKident,    472)    favora    eventual 
election  of  Preaident  by  the  legii- 
lature,   516)    move*  that   vote  of 
preeidential    elector*  be    from   all 
who    arc   appointed.    618)    favora 
executive  council,  632;  favor*  elec- 
tion of  one  branch  of  legimture 
by  the  people,  66)  movea  election 
of  Senate  by  State  legiriature*.  69) 
favor*  large  Senate,  72)  approve* 
wealth  aa  baai*  of  repre*entatlon  in 


Brat    braBek.    M)     favor*    three 
year*'   term   for    aervle*   ia   ir*t 
W«b    of    legiaUture.    144)    pro- 
poaea  r**ld«Bee  tor  brief  period  for 
member*  of  laftoUtttr*.  367)  pr^ 
poee*  one  repraaentativ*  lor  *•«■ 
Btato  at  laaat,  861 )  propoaea  ftxtaf 
compoBiatioa  of  member*  of  legi*- 
Utur*   at    int.!rval*,   40S)    move* 
wage*  of  both  braaekea  of  legia- 
Uture be  the  aame,  408)  propoM* 
limitation  of   repreaeBtation,  486) 
favor*  national  judiciary,  61)  op- 
poee*  joining  judiciary  with  execu- 
tive   In    reviaioaary    power,    66) 
tbinka    judgea    akould    not    have 
power    to    aet    a*ld*    law*,    407) 
movea   power    to    remove    JBdg**, 
473,  474)  approve*  power  of  legia- 
Uture to  negative  State  Uwi,  77 ) 
propoaea   revtaion   of    article*   of 
oonfederatio^  111 ;  motion  rejected, 
120;     oppoaea    qualificationa    (or 
oOce,  328)  favora  (raneblae  for  free- 
holder*,   362)    favor*    reetricting 
money  bill*  to  flr*t  branch  of  legi*- 
Uture,   302)    think*  deflnitloa  of 
felonle*  unneeeaaary,  416)  on  mnd 
committee  on  aaaumption  of  State 
defata,     423;      tbinka     legialatur* 
akould  make  great  appointmenta. 
424)  favora  power  of  Statea  over 
militia,  426)  on  definition  of  trea- 
aon,  431)   favora  aole  power  over 
treaaon  in  nation,  434)  favora  tax 
OB    exporta,    430;    oppoaea    aUve 
trade,  446;  on  cnmnilttee  on  navi- 
gation acta,  448;  iavor*  incluaion 
of  Preaident  in  treaty  making,  468) 
movea   to  confine   »lave   trade   to 
Statea  already  permitting  it,  468) 
wante    further    proviaion   on    ea 

goet  /«<j«o  Uwa,  483)  tbinka  new 
tate*  may  be  created  within  old, 
489)  movet  that  combination  to 
create  new  State*  be  forbidden, 
492)  move*  protection  of  State 
from  domeetlc  violence,  494)  aak* 
If  Congrea*  mu*t  con*ent  to  con- 
•titntion,  496)  on  committee  on 
po*tponed  measure*,  602)  think* 
Congre**  ahould  conaent  to  in- 
apection  dntiea,  668)  on  committee 
on  aumptuary  lawa,  668)  movee 
amendment  relative  to  direct  taxa- 
tion, 669.  .    ^ 

Domeatie  violence,  guarantee  against, 
clanaa  amended,  673. 

Dntiea,  power  to  Uy,  409)  to  be  uni- 
form, 502. 

Dntiea  on  importe  or  export*.  State* 
not  to  lay,  569. 

Dntie*  on  tonnage,  moves  Statea  may 
Uy,  669)  forbidden  to  State*,  670. 


INDBX 


Klwton  «4  titmti  *  *«•  Enratlvt 
•iartart,  tM. 

nbwortk,  Otlvtr,  Cona..  attrnMit,  1»; 
■MVM  tlMtlM  of  •sMVtiva  by  tUr 
tori,  tM|  propoMs  til  yttin'  tm 


prcbot*  ratio 
«•,  in  I  tkvor* 


.    BfopOMB  I 

(or  *XM«ti««,  MM  I  ,- 

•lacton  lor  «me«ti«*, 

taifiblUty   o(    «MetttlT«    (or    mc- 
oad  tons.  SUi  Hrvn  •laetloB  o( 
•xMvtt**  by  l»ftatot«».  Sl«i  op- 
po«a    clMtfaHl    e(    •MMtIr*    by 
•iMtora,  saOi  tMOMU  aotkm  that 
Mch  Btet*  tiwaia  k*v«  OM  roU 
IB  MMmd  W»Mk.  Wi  r*}«et«4,  Ni 
■MVM  MWibwi  o(  flnt  bnuMh  bo 
ciMtod  MnwUly.Vl ;  propoMt  l«fi»- 
Iktlv*  poww  rMBala  In  Coafrcia, 
lOtt    aorw   MurMM   fBTOfuwat 
tmtMa  e(  Mtfcnwl,    ISl;   (mrort 
■kort  twm   for   mtvIm   te   «rrt 
bTMch.  144;  toTOft  W«to  cooipni- 
MtioB  of  iMtolatw*.  146 1  fsTor* 
elw!ti«a  to  BMMte  by  Stoto  ImIs- 
kktoTM,  16St  f»*w*  eonpcMMlon 
for  8«mktora,  17«i   proBom  oom- 
BOMBtkm  of  BMMton  V   Btotot. 
ITS;  hoDM  for  good  f»*vr  of  gov- 
•rwBcirt,  IMi   mmn  mobI  toU 
by  StotM  IB   BMBto.  18»;   orM 
MBBl  Toto  by  StBtM  in  BcBBte,  IBl, 
IM;  iBtltto  OoBaMtieot  it  fadcrml, 
IM;  laalBU  vpon  prcwrvBtloB  of 
Statao.  IN  I  on  eoamiUtaa  oa  rr- 
preanrtatloii  ta  SoBBto.  MB;  fajora 
Maprmiaa  oa  ropraBaatBttoa,  flO; 
Bwraa  pootpoMment  of  Moaay  blllt. 
ttti  oppoiM  hiWiBia  ia  WTW**"- 
totioB,  5»;  moraa  thraa-«fthi  of 
blaein    ia     roprawatotloB,    «4S; 
wiakca  ItgiilBtnra  to  Brraaga  baita 
of     itpiaawrtBtfcm,     f44;     fawa 
NprMaatatioB   by  tanabcrB,   247; 
thtaka  aq«Bl  Tota  la  8»n»to  aafe. 
268;  favort  (UlBg  thaa  for  maot- 
IBK  of  legltlatwre,   849;   propoaea 
MM  ywkr  iBkBMUaey  f or  jaembara 
of  l^latara,  »87;  tbtaka  aither 
hottio  «uiy  ortglaBto  «o^  Wlla. 
362;    tbiaka  vacaaelaa   la  Seaate 
may  ba  AIM  by  mtmevMn,  363; 
would  aot  givo  lafWatwo  powar 
to    arraagB    to    ftll   TBeaacJaa    la 
Senate.  364;  oppoaaa  prorlaJoa  for 
money  billa,  366;  ovpoaea  fotirtacn 
T««ra^  citUeaahJn  for  wembera  of 
Seaate,  387;  thhika  property  oubII- 
(ieatton  for  lefrfalatare  ahonld  aot 
br  fixed.  374.  376;  thlaka  quonmi 
ihould  not  be  fixed.   877;  thlnke 
yeaa  and  aaya  unaacaaaary,  37fl; 
oa    jonnwla   of   leclaUtare,    381; 
tbinka  membera  of  leglalatura  may 
be  appointed  to  offlcea,  800;  fatora 


70S 

paysMtt  of  mambera  of  tagtalatvra 
by  BBtkoB,  401 ;  fBvora  Oslag  coai- 
peaaatloB  (or  leglalBt«re,  403; 
wn>r  '  •>  p«r  day  aa  payaMBt  (or 
m  o(     laglalatura.     403; 

(i  wlBtaaat  of  Judgea  by 

Bai..  itk  eonaaat  of  eiaeutlve. 

101;  BM>vaa  rattSeatloa  by  8UU 
laglaiatttraa,  806,  807;  oa  eanmit- 
tea  of  daUti,  818;  oppoaaa  diaquall- 


(kBtioB   of   daktora,    881;    favora 
fraaehlaa  baaad  ob  tasatloa.  3SZ; 
tkiaka  aoaatttnttoB  aay  ba  altered, 
866;  oppoaaa  tas  ob  nporta,  411; 
would  reader  laaua  of  paper  aKtney 
ImpoaaiMa,   418;    rropoaca   power 
to  aappraas  rabrilM  ob  appllea- 
thm  of  asaaotHa,  417 ;  tbiaka  debta 
will  ba  aamaad,  4M|  morea  coon- 
cU    for    aMeBtiro,    488;     tbiaka 
Btotaa    dMvld    bare    powar    orer 
■Unia,  426,  4>«;  tkiaka  taiatloa 
awy  flover  avaptoary  lawa,  480; 
OB  dataitkiB  of  traaara.  418;  would 
allow   State   powar   ever   traaaoa, 
484;   mofao  te  peatpoao  qaaatloa 
of  Stete  dabta,  486;   favora  rule 
for  lavyiBg  caBtribatloBa  ky  Stetaa. 
486;    oppoaaa   taxatloB   bf  repre- 
•eatetfaiB,  487;  tbiaka  gorerBmeat 
nay  ramlata  trade  batwaaa  Stotaa, 
488 ;  tkiaka  OoamM  awy  lay  •■•- 
bargo.  440;  would  panait  laporta- 
tiOB  of  alaraa,  442;  would  permit 
dava  trade,  444;   wiabee  aavigB- 
tioB  aet  pftiviaioa  to  atond.  447; 
a*  poal  fMt»  lawa  Toid.  440 ;  tkiaka 
prariaioB  to  fulill  eagagcaieata  of 
eld  goTeraneat  uaaieiaaary,  460; 
faTora  BUto  powar  ever  militia. 
461 ;  norea  Baiformlty  for  milHia, 
462;    uppoaea   Bagatlra   oa   SUto 
lawa,  45f. 
Emit  Wlla,  powar  to,  agreed  to,  414^ 
Enacting  elaaaa  for  lawa,  adavtad,  404. 
Xzaeutlve,  aattoaal,  eoaeiderad,  87.  886; 
acreed  to.  80,  826;  oualifleationa 
tSr,  eommlttad,  328;  titla,  461. 
Age,  448,  807. 
(miaanakiB,  607. 
Oimp«BaatioB  of,  dlaeuaaed,  4S,  671 ; 

agreed  to,  204.      ^     „    ,         ., 
Correapoadence    witb     SUtea,    dia- 

cMaed,  470;  atruek  out.  471. 
Council  for,  eonalderad,  60,  428,  44R; 
negatived.  632.  ..,.,„ 

Electloa  of,  dlacnaaad.  40,  41,  42, 
824.  614;  appolBtmeat  by  Statea, 
diaeuaaed,  79;  rejected.  «>:  to  be 
cboaea  by  leglalature,  paaeed.  270; 
by  people  refteted,  270;  br  elector^ 
rejected.  270;  pronoaed  to  be 
cluMen  by  electora,  286,  286;  ear- 


706 


INDEX 


ried,  287;  to  be  choten  by  leglria- 
ture,  considered,  287,  287  i  r»tio 
poatpooed,  287;  six  years'  term 
carried,  288;  ratio  considered,  288; 
ratio  rejected,  289;  ratio  of  elec- 
tors considered,  288;  qualification 
of  electors  considered,  294 »  pay- 
ment of  electors,  294;  election  by 
electors  reconsidered,  310;  election 
by  electors  debated,  311;  by  SUte 
legislatures  agreed  to,  313;  elec- 
tion of  electors  by  lot,  considered, 
317 ;  question  of  election  postponed, 
317;  election  by  legislature  con- 
sidered, 318;  rejected,  320;  election 
by  legUUtnre,  481;  by  joint  ballot 
agreed  to,  482;  each  SUte  to  hare 
one  vote,  rejected,  482;  by  ins; 
jority,  a^gned  to,  483;  to  be  elected 
by  electors  chosen  by  people,  re- 
jected, 483,  484;  mode  of  elec- 
tion reported,  607;  erentnal  elec- 
tion by  legislature  rejected,  618; 
by  lees  than  one-third,  rejected, 
617;  by  six  Senators  and  seven 
RepreaenUtivea  rejected,  617;  elec- 
tion of,  by  electors,  debated,  617; 
erentual  election  limited  to  three 
candidates,  rejected,  617;  thirteen, 
rejected,  617;  electors  to  be  at  seat 
of  goTemment,  proposed,  622;  how 
vote  is  to  be  counted,  debated. 
622;  erentual  election  by  House  if 
Tote  equal,  agreed  to,  623;  quorum 
in  TOttag  fUed,  624;  mode  of  elec- 
tion agrled  to,  624;  racancy  to  be 
fUled  by  legislature.  626;  majority 
of  State*  necessary  to  *l«ct.  »28. 

Impeacbability  of,  diacnased.  48,  276. 
289,  290;  carried,  298. 

InellsibiUtT  for  second  term,  cm- 
sidwed.  48,  270,  274,  282,  287. 
813;  rejected,  271,  287;  agreed  to, 
326 ;  for  continuous  reelection,  con- 
sidered, 828;  rejected.  328. 

NegatiT*.  power  of,  debated,  61;  to 
negative  legislative  acU  proposed, 
61 ;  absolute  negative  on  laws  lost. 
68;  negative  on  acts  agrsed  to, 
274;  absolute  negative  proposed, 
360;  rejected.  360;  abaolnte  nega- 
tive on  laws  proposed,  407;  power 
to  negative  bills,  408;  two-thirds 
vote  to  overrule  negative  proposed, 
610;    agreed  to,  664. 

Oath  of,   472. 

Powers  of,  39;  council  of  revision 
considered,  61;  revisionary  power 
overruled  by  two-thirds  of  legis- 
lature, agreipd  to,  66;  power  to 
suspend  laws  considered,  65;  lost, 
55;  revisionary  power  with  judici- 
ary, considered,  68,  294;  power  of 


appointment,  eoasidsred,  67;  power 
of  appointment,  agreed  to,  629 ;  as- 
association  of  judfoiary  in  revision- 
ary power,  considered,  67 ;  revision- 
ary power  with  judiciary,  rejected, 
69;  to  execute  laws  agTMd  to,  270; 
to  appoint  to  office  agreed  to,  270; 
qualined  vote  agreed  to,  300; 
power  of  appointment,  464;  re- 
stricted, 486;  to  appoint  public 
ministers,  470;  to  receive  ambas- 
sadors, agreed  to.  471;  power  to 
pardon,  agreed  to,  471;  impeach- 
ment excepted,  471  i  power  over 
militia,  472;  impekchment  post- 
poned. 472;  to  main  treaties,  628, 
630,  631;  inelnding  House,  re- 
jected, 628;  to  fill  vacancies,  620; 
to  require  opinions  of  heads  of 
departmenta,  631;  power  to  par- 
don, 671;  exeept  in  treason  cases, 
rejected,  672. 

Removal  of,  diacuaaed,  46. 

Single,  proposed,  39.  48;  agreed  to. 
61,  267,  461. 

Sucoeaaion.  postponed.  47S;  preaident 
of  Senate  to  snoceed.  472. 

Term  of.  40;  seven  years  agreed  to, 
41;  seven  years,  poatponed,  3?0; 
considered,  270,  271;  during  good 
behavior,  rejected,  273;  seven  yeara 
agreed  to,  274;  seven  years  re- 
jected, 288;  discussed,  314;  re- 
ported, 607;  ddbated,  621. 
Bzport  duties,  SUtM  may  levy  to  pay 
cha^gea,  667;  agreed  to,  668;  not 
to  be  laid  and  no  preference  among 
States,  666. 
Exports,  tax  on,  410;  qnestioa  post- 
poned, 412;  power  to  tax,  479. 
Ba  poit  faeto  lawa,  disensaed,  449,  483; 
provision  disenased,  668;  dause  re- 
tained. 666;  f«»UddMi  to  States. 
667. 

Few,  ^niaiii.  6a.,  attends,  17;  <m  com- 
mittee on  imposts,  470. 

Fitasimmons,  Thomas,  Penn..  attends, 
17;  favors  tax  on  exporta,  441 :  on 
committee  on  impoata,  470;  tiiinks 
vessel  most  clear  from  ita  own 
State,  601;  regards  publication  of 
ezpenditnrea  as  impossible.  687. 

Forts,  etc.,  jurisdiction  over,  613. 

Franklin,  Benjamin,  Penn.,  attends,  18; 
opposes  salary  for  executive,  43; 
opposes  negative  of  executive  oa 
laws,  62;  opposes  executive  power, 
64;  seconds  motion  to  give  exesn- 
tive  power  to  suspend  laws,  65; 
favors  impeachability  of  execntive, 
290,  292;  thinks  executive  servant 
of  pec^le,   326;    favora  executive 


INDEX 


conncll,  831 ;  movw  to  IteiH  PtmI- 
dent't  emolununti,  071;  oppoMi 
two  branchet  of  natioiwl  legiilature, 
31;  on  baiia  of  reprewntation  in 
le^tlatun,  85;  niggeiU  elimina- 
tion of  "  liberal"  tnm  amendment 
regarding  compenaation  of  members 
of  legislature,  93;  seconds  motion 
to  give  Senate  no  salary,  171 ;  pro- 
poses proportion  for  Senate,  196; 
on  committee  on  representation  in 
Senate,  208;  opposes  property 
qualifications  for  legislature,  374; 
thinks  members  need  not  pledge 
themselves,  682;  wishes  judiciary 
appointed  neither  by  executive  nor 
legislature,  67;  thinks  salaries  of 
judges  may  be  Increased,  277; 
thinks  money  bills  may  originate 
In  first  branch  of  legislature,  218; 
agrass  to  provision  for  money  bills, 
MS;  proposes  prayers  in  conven- 
tion, 181;  favors  sermon  on  4th  of 
July,  182;  Ittsista  on  compromise, 
818;  favora  free  franchise,  884; 
favors  liberal  policy  towards  for- 
dgMTS,  368;  favors  two  witnesses 
to  treason,  433;  favors  second  con- 
rention,  844;  on  (xmmittee  on 
■nmptuary  laws,  688;  movea  power 
to  ent  canals,  863;  pleads  for 
unanimous  approval,  678;  pleads 
with  Randolph  to  sign  constitu- 
tion, 681;  utters  prophesy,  683. 

Franklin,  William  Temple,  nominated 
for  secretary  of  convention,  18. 

Fugitive  slave  clanae,  amendment,  S7S. 

Oaonria,  representatloB  from,  228. 

Oerry,  KIbridge,  Masa.,  attends,  21;  dis- 
likes election  by  pwiple,  S3;  favor* 
council  for  executive,  38;  oppose* 
deetkm  of  exeentWe  by  legisUture, 
42;  proposes  ezeeotive  power  to 
Mgative  legislative  acts,  61;  fk- 
vor*  qualified  negative  on  laws  of 
•neuflve,  62;  oppose*  power  ta 
executive  to  anapend  ]•»•.  Ws 
moves  reconsideration  of  mode  of 
appointing  executive,  79;  move* 
that  executive  be  elected  by  execu- 
tives of  States,  79;  oppoM*  pmn- 
lar  election  of  executive,  286,  883; 
favors  election  of  execntlve  by 
electors,  287 ;  moves  ratio  of  elec- 
tors for  election  of  executive,  289; 
urges  necessity  of  impeachabllity 
of  exei-wtive,  291 ;  move*  qualifica- 
tion of  electors,  294;  move*  elec- 
tion of  executive  by  SUte  legls- 
latures,  312;  oppoae*  election  of 
electors  for  executive  by  State  legis- 
Utures,  312;  insist*  on  inellglblllty 


707 

of  executive  to  (seond  term,  313; 
moves  ineligibility  of  executive  for 
second  Urm,  313;  suggesU  fifteen 
years'  tarm  tor  executive,  314;  sug- 
gests eligibility  of  executiv*   for 
second  term   be   committed,   315; 
opposes  choosing  electors  for  ex- 
ecutive by  lot,  317 ;  moves  election 
of  executive  by  fovemors  of  States, 
318;  favors  indigibility  of  execu- 
tive for  oontinuoua  reelection,  321 ; 
moves  to  commit  clause  relative  to 
executive,   324;   oppose*  executive 
council,  428;   fears  a  few  States 
may  choose  Preaident,  816;  moves 
eventual  election  of  President  by 
six  Senatora  and  seven  Representa- 
tives,   817;    seconds   motion    that 
eventual  election  of  President  be 
limited  to  three  candidatea,  817; 
movea  change  of  clause  for  reelect- 
ing  President,    818;    moves    that 
elector*  be  not  oflkse  holders,  818; 
thinks  Statea  must  have  increased 
representation  to  vote  for  President, 
626;  proposes  majority  of  SUtes 
to  elect,  826;  thinks  President  will 
not   b*    resposiaibla    for    appoint- 
ments, 629 ;  favors  elections  to  first 
branch  of  national  lei^slature  on 
nominations  hj  the  paople,  62;  fa- 
vors dectloB  of  Senate  by  State 
legisUture*.  71;  oppo***  power  of 
iMislatnrs  to  negative  SUte  laws, 
76;  move*  to  exclude  blaefca  from 
rule  at  npreeentotion,   M;   ap- 
prove* «leennc  member*  of   first 
branch  aamwlly,  91;  oppose*  equal 
mftage  by  State*  in  legislature, 
188;  favora  commitment  of  ques- 
tion of  representation  fai  Senate, 
206;  on  cummlttae  on  representa- 
tion in  Senate,  206;  reporto  from 
eonunittee    on    representation    in 
Senate,  206;  explain*  report,  206; 
favors  ooDpromlse  on  representa- 
tion,   211;    favon    numbera    and 
wealth    aa    baal*    of    representa- 
tion, 214;   favor*  Inereaae  in  re- 
iresentation,  229;  favor*  counting 
jiacka   a*   three-fifths,   2SI;    pro- 
poses vote  per  Mpitm  in  Senate, 
288;   favor*  fixing  qoomm,  377; 
on   journal*  of   legteiature,    380; 
move*    diacretkm     in    publishing 
journals  of  legislature,  380;  thinks 
legislature  may  fix  seat  of  forem- 
ment,  382;  favor*  ineligibility   of 
members   of   legidatnrs  to  oflice, 
396,  6(io;  thtaika  qneathm  of  com- 
pensation of  members  of  legislature 
dUBcult,   402;    oppose*   power   of 
peace  in  Senate,  419;  opposes  Vice 


I 


708 


INDEX 


PretidfBt  for  prMident  of  Senate, 
687;  fMr*  treatie*  of  peace  may  be 
too  easily  made,  530;  seconds  mo- 
tion that  treaties  require  a  ma- 
jority of  whole  Senate,  534;  moves 
that    treaties   shall    require    two- 
thirds  of  whole  Senate,  633;  moves 
notice  of  treaties  be  sent  to  Sena- 
tors, 634;   moves  legislature   have 
sole  power  to  create  offices,  637; 
thinks  Congress  must  agree  to  con- 
stitution,   540,    642;    faTOrs   two- 
thirds  vote  to  set  aside  President's 
negative,  666;  proposes  Congress  be 
forbidden  to  impair  contracts,  567 ; 
opposes  judicial  power  of  revision 
of   laws,   61;    opposes  aasocUtion 
of    judiciary    with    executive    in 
revisionary  power,  68;  opposes  re- 
visionary  power  of  judiciary,  296, 
406;  moves  power  of  removal  by 
judges,  478;  thinks  provision  for 
juries  necessary,   65«;    insists  on 
jury    trial    in    civil    cases,    572; 
doubts  powers  of  convention,  28; 
on  evils  of  democracy,  32;   fears 
ratification  of  constitution  by  peo- 
ple,   6fl;    thinks   commercial    and 
moneyed  Interests  secure  In  Stat* 
legislatures,  73;  opposes  requiring 
oaths  from  members  of  State  gov- 
ernments to  observe  constitution, 
90;    mores    that    Senate    be    re- 
strained  from   originating   mon^ 
bills.   97;    urges  agreement,   170; 
thinks  originating  money  bills  in 
first  farandi  of  legislature  a  con- 
cession   from   small   SUtes,   217; 
favors     money    bills    from     first 
branch  of  legislature,  391 ;  Insists 
on  national  plan,  220;  moves  con- 
sideration of  general  powers,  221 ; 
moves  to  consider  basis  of  taxa- 
tion,  246;    fears  power  of  West, 
251;  favors  discrimination  against 
West.  252;   insists  on  concessions, 
264;    opposes    adjournment,    262; 
moves   oath   to   support   national 
government,  304;  opposes  ratifica- 
tion by  people,  306;  moves  com- 
mitment of  constitution,  311;  op- 
poses exclusion   of  public   debtors 
from  office,  328;  property  an  object 
of  government,  328;  favors  qualifi- 
cations for  legislature,  330;  moves 
to  di?quaHfy  pensioners,  330;  capi- 
tal should  not  be  at  State  capital 
or  large  city,  332;  would  exclude 
foreigners  from  govemmont,   384; 
opposes  tax  on  exports,  411;   op- 
poses   taxing   power,    412;    moves 
power  to  establish  post  roads,  413; 
opposes  power  to   suppress  rebel- 


lion without  State's  request,  417; 
wants  action   in   favor   of   public 
securities,  421;  opposes  armies  in 
time  of  peace,  424;  moves  to  limit 
army  in  time  of  peace,  424 ;  favors 
SUte  control  of  militia,  426,  452; 
moves  mode  of  impeachment,  429; 
proposes    tazatioB    according    to 
representation,    436;    opposes    as- 
sumption of  State  debts,  436;  fa- 
vors  taxation    by    representation, 
437,  438;  opposes  power  over  ex- 
ports,   440;    would    not    sanction 
slavery,  446;  opposed  to  bills  of 
attainder  and  eo  posi  facto  laws, 
449;  thinks  provisioa  to  fulfill  en- 
gagements of  old  government  neces- 
sary, 460;   fears  national  control 
of  militia,  463;  supporU  SUte  gov- 
cmmMits,  464;  thinks  ddrts  should 
be  paid,  466;  opposes  constitution. 
600;  objects  to  appropriations  for 
army  for  tvro  years,  618;  objecU  to 
authority  over  forts,  613;   moves 
reconsideration  of  articles  concern- 
ing amendments,  oaths,  and  rati- 
fication, 614 ;  moves  no  one  be  ap- 
pointed to  offices  not  created  by 
law,    634;    move*    to    reconsider 
clause    relating    to    amendmentSt 
638:    approves    amendments    pro- 
posed by  legislature  to  SUtes,  530; 
Svors  Bill  of  RighU,  657;  thinks 
em  pott  foeto  laws  should  be  ex- 
tended to  ciril   cases,   566;    pro- 
poses   cUuse    for    liberty    of    the 
press,  666;   favors  publication  of 
accounts    of    expenditures,     668; 
moves   amendment   for   State   ad- 
mission, 673;  wishes  amendnienta 
by  convention,  674;  favora  second 
convention,  630;  states  why  he  will 
not  sign,  576;  does  not  sign,  683. 
Oilman,  NichoUs,  N.  H.,  attends,  303; 
on  committee  on  postponed  meaa- 
ures,  608.  .     ._ 

Gorham,  Nathaniel.  Mass.,  attends,  18; 
thinks  legislature  may  name  time 
of  elections,  371 ;  favors  election  of 
President  by  ballot,  461;  thinks 
majority  of  Senate  may  elect  Presi- 
dent, 623;  <H>poses  State  cranpen- 
sation  of  legislature,  146;  opposes 
ineligibility  of  members  of  first 
branch  cf  legislature  to  office,  160; 
proposes  compromise  on  repre- 
sentation in  Senate,  162;  suggests 
four  years  for  Senators,  165;  moves 
six  years  for  Senate,  166;  asks 
explanation  of  report  of  committee 
on  representation,  206 ;  opposes  fix- 
ing representation  in  first  branch 
of  legislature,  213;  on  committee 


INDEX 


70» 


on    reprMcntotioB.    215;    npUint 
ratio  of   repreaentetioii,  224;    fa- 
von  counting  blacks  at  thrce-fiftht, 
233;  thinks  standard  of  representa- 
tion  must  be   fixed,    235;    favors 
numbers  as  basis  of  representation, 
230;    wishes   two   Senators   from 
«M:h  Stat*,  310;  would  leave  quali- 
fications to  legislature,  327 ;  favors 
fixing  time  of  meeting  of  legisla- 
ture, 348;  suggests  Sntate  amend 
money  bills,  8e2;  favors  less  than 
a  majority  for  a  quorum,  370 ;  op- 
posed to  yeas  and  nays  at  request 
of  one  member,  370;   would  nay 
Senate  more  than  first  branch,  403; 
thinks  Senate  should  not  have  power 
for  money  bills,  404;   favors  ma- 
ioritv    for    quorum,    408;    thinks 
legislature  can  fix  scale  of  contri- 
butions, 436;  favors  settlement  of 
State  controversies  by  Senate,  400; 
thinks  Cimgress  may  name  ports  of 
entry,  470;  oppoees  ineligibUi^  of 
members  of  legislature  to  omces, 
605;  opposes  treaties  of  peace  with 
majority  of  Senate,  630;  asks  for 
increased      representation,      570; 
thinks  ezeentive  must  be  elected 
by  joint  ballot  of  legUlature,  347; 
approves  of  appointment  of  judges 
t^  executive,  274,  275,  270;  with 
consoit  of  Senate,  277;  favors  in- 
ferior jndicUl  tribunals,  270;  op- 
poses revisionary  power  for  judges, 
200;    thinks  provision   for   juries 
not  necessary,  563;  chairman,  com- 
mittee of  whole,  27;    seconds  su- 
preme government  instead  of  na- 
tional,   131;    discusses   rights   of 
States,  183;   favors  general  prin- 
ciples in  oMistitution,  260;  favors 
guaranteeing    republican     govem- 
mrat,  281 ;  thinks  oath  to  support 
constitution  proper,  304;  opposed 
to  ratification  by  legislatures,  306; 
on  committee  of  detail.  318;  would 
disqualify  debtors  from  office,  330; 
opposes  franchise  for  freeholders, 
366;  thinks  nation  will  not  last, 
360;     naturalised     foreigners    on 
same  footing  with  natives,  386;  op- 
poses power  to  emit  bills  of  credit, 
413;  moves  appointment  of  treas- 
urer by  joint  ballot,  416;  moves 
power  to  support  armies,  424;  says 
motives   of   east   are   commercial, 
447;     objects    to    ratification    of 
treaties,  458;   seconds  motion  for 
slave  trade  till  1808,  467;  thinks 
duty  on  slaves  a  disconrafrement  to 
importation,  460;  on  committee  on 
imposts,  470;  thinks  paper  money 


may  bs  nseessary,  477;  on  commit- 
tee on  mutttsi  rscognition  by 
SUtes  of  public  aeU,  482;  insists 
on  navigaUon  acts,  486;  favors 
ratification  by  conventions,  408; 
thlnlcs  vessel  need  not  clear  from 
its  own  SUte,  601 ;  opposes  mode 
of  chooaUg  Vice  PreUdent,  608; 
favors  appointment  of  treasurer  by 
legislature.  662. 

Government  of  thiw  parU  agreed  to, 
347. 

Grand  committee  on  assumption  of 
SUte  debts,  423,  436,  436. 

Great  seal,  428. 

HabsM  Mnm,  writ  of  privilsge,  427, 

477. 
HaailtoB,  Alexander,  N.  T.,  attends, 
17;  moves  absidute  negative  of  ex- 
ecutive, 61;  thinks  Prssident  may 
be  elected  by  plurality  of  electors, 
620;  moves  repreasntation  by  popu- 
lation, 30;  moves  rule  of  sulTrage 
in   second   branch   should  be  the 
same  as  in  first,  80;  passed.  80; 
opposes  deetiona  to  legisUture  by 
State  legisUtures,  142;  urges  three 
years'   tarm   for    first   branch   of 
fegisUture,     145;     opposes    State 
compensation  of  hgUature,  147; 
opposes  ineligibUity  of  members  of 
first  branch  of  IfaWaturs  to  oflke, 
160;    moves    eituenship    and    in- 
haUtaney  for  legisUture,  884;  re- 
jected, 385;  favors  reconsideration 
of  nnmbsr  of  reprssatatives,  538; 
nominate*    William    Jackson    for 
■pnetary    of   convention,    18;    on 
committee   on   rulss,   18;    seconds 
aotioB  acninst  salariss.  46;  nu>- 
ports  national   government.    111; 
plan,    118,    120  n.;    discusses    na- 
Sraal  govemme^  120,  131;  urges 
■trong   government,    160;    doubts 
wisdom  of  praywa  in  convention, 
182;    discusses   ri|^ts   of    States, 
186;  on  eoounittee  on  style,  638; 
favors  cader  mode  of  amendment, 
630;  seconds  mode  for  amendments, 
640;  submits  plan  for  ratification, 
642;    lost,   543;    thinks   Congress 
must  agree  to  constitution,   541; 
hopes  every  memljer  will  sign  con- 
stitution, 680;  copy  of  paper  sent 
to     Jamas     Madison,     embodying 
Alexander    Hamilton's    principles 
for  a  constitution,  608. 
Hay,  John,  extracts  of  letters  to  George 

Washington,  686,  587. 
House  of   Representatives,  Bee  Legis- 
lature, House  of  Kepresentatives. 
Houston   William  Churchill,  K.  J.,  at- 


710 


INDEX 


t«n<U,  17;  moTPt  quMtion  of  elec- 
tion of  executive,  310. 
Houitoun,  William,  Gk.,  atteodi,  S7; 
move!  poetponement  of  tenn  for 
executive,  270;  mores  eligibtlity  of 
executive  to  iecond  tenn,  270;  eec- 
ondi  motion  for  increaee  ratio  of 
electore,  280;  move*  election  of  elec- 
tore  for  executive  by  State  legisla- 
tures, 311;  on  committee  on  repre- 
sentation, 220;  move*  increase  in 
representation  of  Qeorgia,  228; 
does  not  ■  8h  to  perpetuate  exist- 
ing constivutions,  281. 

Impeachments,  provision  struck  out, 
270;  mode  of,  420;  of  judges,  440; 
of  President,  question  postponed, 
472;  power  of.  63S;  to  higli  crimes 
and  misdemeanors,  agreed  to,  536; 
motion  not  to  try  in  Senate,  lost, 
1S37;  clause  agreed  to,  637;  to  in- 
clude other  civil  oflBcers,  137;  pro- 
posed to  suspend  persons  im- 
peached, lost,  Sfll. 

Imports,  tcz  on,  470. 

Imposts,  pov  r  to  lay,  460;  to  be  nni- 
form,  4i'0,  563. 

Incorporation,  power  of,  480;  charter* 
for,  proposed,  SM. 

Indian  affairs,  420. 

IngersoU,  Jared,  Penn.,  attends,  18; 
does  not  regard  signing  constitu- 
tion as  pledge  to  support  it,  S82. 

Invasion,  guarantee  against  srtiele, 
agreied  to,  403. 

Inventions,  power  to  encourage,  420. 

Jackson,  William,  elected  iocretary  of 
convention,  18. 

Jefferson,  Thomas,  extract  of  letter 
from  James  Madison,  680. 

Jenifer,  Daniel  uf  St.  Thomas,  Md., 
attends,  41 ;  move*  members  of  first 
branch  be  elected  every  three  y<!ars, 
01 ;  favors  ineligibility  of  mem- 
bers of  legislature  to  ofBee*,  IM; 
moves  postponement  of  question  of 
money  bills,  216;  insist*  vessel 
must  clear  from  itt  own  State, 
501. 

Jersey  plan.    Bee  Patterson's  plan. 

Johnson,  W.IIiam  Samuel,  Conn.,  at- 
tends, 41 ;  favors  preserving  States, 
130;  thinks  State  governments 
must  be  preserved,  164;  think* 
States  must  be  preserved,  182; 
favors  wealth  and  numbers  as  basis 
for  representation,  242;  on  defini- 
tion of  treason,  431;  insists  of- 
fense against  nation,  432;  on  com- 
mittee on  navigation  acta,  448; 
thinks  r.rovision  against  ea  pott 


facto  laws  nmMceaaary,  460;  op- 
pose* ratUleatioB  of  treatie*.  458; 
thinks  provision  for  State  con- 
troversies unnecessary,  460;  insist* 
on  validity  of  debts,  466;  suggests 
judicial  power  extend  to  equity, 
473 ;  moves  jurisdiction  of  supreme 
court  extend  to  cases  under  consti- 
tution, 476;  on  committee  on  mu- 
tual recognition  by  States  of  pub- 
lic acts,  483;  thinks  Vermont  must 
come  into  the  Union,  480;  moves 
admission  of  States  already 
formed,  401 ;  on  oommittee  on 
style,  638;  submits  report  of  com- 
mittee on  style,  646;  favors  power 
to  pas*  nuaptuary  laws,  668;  on 
committee  on  sumptuary  laws,  668; 
report*  proviaion  for  ratification, 
600. 
Journal*  of  convention,  disposition  of, 

682. 
Journal*  of  legiilature,  publication  of, 
380,  381;  aecrecr  only  in  Senate, 
propoeed  and  rejected,  662. 
JudieiaiT,    national,    agreed    to,    66; 
single  court  pnxxwed,  67;  changes 
in  clause  relating  to,  made,  06; 
to  be  boand  by  national  law,  286; 
qualification*  for,  committed,  328. 
Appointment  by  legislature   consid- 
ered, 66;  mode  considered,  67,  68- 
by  Senate,  07,  274,  303;  by  execu- 
tive, 877;  by  executive  with  con- 
sent of  Senate,  277,  SOO,  303. 
Compensation,  68,  277,  474;  not  to 
be  changed  during  ofllee,  877;  may 
be  increased,  878;  may  be  changed, 
474. 
Impeachment  of,  440,  476;  removal 

of,  rejected,  474. 
Inferior    tribunal*,    oraaidered,    60, 
270;  provision  for,  struck  out.  61; 
legislature  to  have  power  to  insti- 
tute, 61,  68;  agreed  to,  870,  416. 
Jurisdiction  diseuaaed,  07,  870,  440; 
power  to  declare  law*  unconstitu- 
tional, discussed,  61 ;  power  to  de- 
clare law  void,  denied,  406,  407; 
supreme  court,  428;  to  extend  to 
equity,  473;  appellate  jurisdiction, 
476;  to  extend  to  cases  under  con- 
stitution, 476. 
Juries,  crimes  to  be  tried  by,  477; 
in  civil  cases,  656;  trial  by,  to  be 
preserved,  rejected,  673. 
Bevifionary  power,  as  council  of  re- 
vision, 61 ;  revisicmary  power,  300, 
405;  with  executive,  61,  66,  67,  60, 
294;  negatived,  400. 
Supreme   tribunal,   agreed   to,   274; 

tenure  of  ofilce  of,  58,  877,  474. 
Juries  in  civil  cases,  656. 


INDEX 


711 


Klag,  Rufst,  UaM.,  attend*,  IT;  fa- 
vors nrUioiukiy  power  of  ezecutiva, 
68;  movsa  rcoomidsratiim  of  mode 
of  appointliiK  esecntlTe,  79;  fa- 
Tort  eligibility  of  executive  for 
■eeond  term,  28S,  814;  fears  short 
term  for  executive,  288;  oppose* 
impeachability  of  executive,  891, 
293;  thinlu  State  legislatures  may 
vote  for  executive,  313;  suggect* 
twenty  year*'  term  for  executive, 
S14;  wishes  to  postpone  question 
of  election  of  executive,  317;  move* 
that  elector*  be  not  oiBee  holder*, 
018;  favor*  change  of  clause  rela- 
tive to  reelection  of  Preddent,  S19 ; 
think*  Preeident  ehould  have  par- 
doning power  over  treason,  S71; 
«n  principle  of  representation,  29; 
thinlcs  choice  of  members  of  sec- 
ond branch  of  legislature  by  State 
legislatures  Impracticable,  34; 
move*  right  of  nifrrage  in  first 
branch  should  be  baaed  on  aquitabl* 
ratio,  84;  pa*s«d,  88;  oppose*  elec- 
tion to  ilr*t  branch  of  legidature 
by  legialaturea,  143;  oppoae*  State 
compensation  of  legislature,  147; 
opposes  ineligibility  of  members  of 
first  branch  of  legislature  to  ofke, 
150, 162;  oppose*  fixing  repre*enta- 
tion,  214;  on  committee  «'  repre- 
•enUtion,  216,  226;  think*  South 
entitled  to  representation  for 
■lave*,  226;  reports  on  representa- 
tion, 226;  obJeeU  to  ImwIs  of 
representation,  235;  oppose*  blade* 
a*  three-fifth*  in  repreaentation, 
239;  would  not  tie  legislature*  in 
fixiiw  repreaentation,  244;  favor* 
limiting  rtprewntation,  251 ;  move* 
vote  per  eapitm  in  Senate,  309; 
thinks  leglsiatnre  need  meet  sel- 
dom, 848;  opposes  dave  representa- 
tion, 368;  think*  legialature  ahould 
regulate  election*.  872;  favor*  le** 
than  a  majority  for  a  qnonmi, 
377;  agree*  to  number  for  » 
quorum,  377;  move*  aol*  power 
over  treason  in  legislature,  433; 
moves  ineligibilty  of  members  of 
legislature  to  new  ofSees,  604; 
lost,  506;  *eeond*  motion  for  in- 
eligibility of  member*  of  lMi*la- 
ture  for  new  or  increaaed  oflkse*, 
606;  move*  leglelatnre  eoasent  to 
purchase  forts,  513;  thinks  influ- 
ence of  nnall  State*  balanoed,  617; 
defends  Senate,  529 ;  tmpoaes  diange 
in  representation,  568;  favors  in- 
creased representation,  579;  op- 
poees  power  of  judiciaij  to  nega- 
tive  legislative   acta,    51;    favors 


inferior  tribunals  in  national  legis- 
lature, 61 :  objacta  to  rule  for  yaa* 
and  nay*,  18;  favor*  ratification  of 
constitution  by  convention*,  69; 
discusass  national  govsmment, 
130;  expecta  dslegatea  from  New 
Hampshire,  190;  oppose*  State 
aovereignty,  197;  censures  Bed- 
ford, 200 ;  favors  admission  of  new 
SUtes,  214;  think*  New  Hamp- 
ahire  will  increase,  226;  says  gov- 
ernment will  act  on  people,  254; 
favors  ratification  bv  convention*, 
308;  oppose*  landed  property  aa 
qualification  for  oiBce,  328;  move* 
■eat  of  government  be  fixed.  381; 
favor*  aasumption  of  State  debta, 
421 ;  thinlcs  unlocated  lands  should 
be  given  up,  422;  on  grand  com- 
mittee on  aasumption  of  State 
debta,  423;  thinka  definition  of 
treason  unimportant,  432;  asks 
definition  of  direct  taxation,  436; 
thinks  taxation  by  repreaentation 
nnaeeessary,  43'';  opposss  slavery 
proviaion,  446;  on  committee  on 
navigation  acta,  448;  enilaina 
power  over  militia,  461;  think* 
*lave  trade  dependent  on  naviga- 
tion lawa,  468;  thinks  new  State* 
must  observe  contracta,  478;  op- 
po*e*  power  to  tax  exports  with 
consent  of  States,  481 ;  favor*  rati- 
ficadon  by  ail  State*,  496;  favor* 
rmtifieation  by  conventloiM,  497; 
on  committee  on  poatponed  mea*- 
nre*,  802;  move*  limitatitm  on 
treatiea  affecting  rif^ta,  632; 
move*  to  *trike  out  provieion  con- 
cerning treatiea  of  peace,  632;  on 
eommittee  on  s^Ie,  638;  would 
•nbmit  constitution  to  Congress, 
642;  thinks  Congress  need  not  ap- 
prove eonatitntion,  643;  oppose* 
■nspension  from  olBee  of  pereon* 
impeached,  661 ;  favor*  appointment 
of  Treaaurer  by  legidature,  662; 
think*  power  to  grant  charters  of 
Incorporation  unnecessary,  664; 
thinks  publication  of  expmditures 
impracticable,  666;  suggest*  dia- 
peial   of   journals   at   convention, 

Knox,  Henry,  extract  of  letter  to 
Georg*  Washington,  685. 

Land*,  fund  from  weatem,  192;  power 
over,  420. 

Langdon,  John,  N.  H.,  attenda,  303; 
favors  committing  question  of  ex- 
ecutive, 324;  Prendcnt  ought  to  be 
chosen  by  general  voice,  462; 
moves   to   strike   out  clause  dis- 


712 


INDEX 


qnalifylng  dcbton,  S30;  think* 
■Mt  of  goTemmeDt  ehould  not  b* 
•t  State  cmpital,  332;  oppoiei  paT- 


of  legitlature  by  SUtea,  401 
oppotM  paper  money,  414;  favors 
power  to  aupprMa  rebellion,  417; 
on  grand  committee  on  aHumption 
of  State  debte,  42S;  ha*  no  fear 
of  army,  424 ;  inaitte  on  power  over 
militia,  42fi;  oppose*  taxation  by 
representation,  4SS;  favor*  reduc- 
tion of  New  Hampshire's  repre- 
sentation, 437;  oppoae*  power  to 
tax  export*,  438,  439 ;  oppose*  slav* 
trade,  448;  on  committee  on  navi- 
gation acta,  448;  favor*  federal 
control  of  militia,  452;  think* 
State  ezecntive*  ought  to  be  ap- 
pointed by  general  government, 
457;  wonid  pay  debte  fairly,  48«; 
thii^  proviaion  for  *lave  trade 
dependent  on  navigation  law*,  488; 
on  committee  on  tmpoets,  470; 
would  admit  new  Stotes  only  on 
conditions,  487 ;  thinks  new  Stetes 
may  be  created  within  the  old, 
488;  thinks  Vermont  should  come 
into  the  Union,  489;  thinks  vessel 
need  not  clear  from  its  own  State, 
501;  moves  additional  represented 
tion,  888;  insiste  Stetes  can  not 
lay  duties  on  tonnage,  570. 
Lanaing,  John,  Jr.,  N.  Y.,  attend*,  41; 
aupport*  Patteraon's  plan,  104 ;  op 
pose*  national  government,  132; 
moves  single  legislature,  132; 
think*  voting  in  l^slature  should 
be  by  Stetes,  178;  would  permit 
commitment  of  question  of  repre- 
•entetion  in  Senate,  205. 
Laws,  general,  power  to  make,  430. 
Legislature,  each  house  to  originate 
acts,  174;  rule  of  raffrage  con- 
sidered, 174;  clause  agreed  to,  350; 
yeas  and  nays  diacnssed,  370;  ad- 
journment of,  381 ;  watt  of  govern- 
ment, 381,  382. 
Attendance  of  members,  378;  agreed 

to,  378. 
Compensation  to  be  paid  from  na- 
tional treasuiy,  93;  considered, 
148;  to  be  Hxed  by  legislature,  dis- 
agreed to,  148;  adequate  compensa- 
tion agreed  to,  148;  national  com- 
fensation,  diaagreed  to,  149;  by 
tetes  proposed,  401;  by  nation, 
agreed  to,  403;  rate  discussed,  403; 
$6.00  per  day,,  rejected,  403;  $4.00, 
rejected,  403;  equal,  403;  higher 
for  Senate  proposed,  403. 
Disqualifications,  members  to  be  in- 
eligible for  Stete  offices,  rejected, 
93;  to  be  ineliidble  to  olBce  under 


national  government  for  one  year 
after  terminaton  of  term,  94; 
of  members  to  oiBce*,  debated. 
306. 

Efections,  mode  of,  140,  371;  agreed 
to,  371;  joint  baUot  favored,  347. 

Expulsion  of  member*  conaidered, 
378;  by  two-third*  agreed,  378. 

Journal  of  proceeding*,  debate  on. 
880,  381;  pnblieation  permitted, 
381. 

Money  bill*,  debated,  382,  385;  to 
originate  in  flrat  branch,  rejected, 
383;  reconaidered,  383;  provieion 
for,  agreed  to,  388;  exclusive  con- 
trol in  first  branch  rejected,  305; 
Senate  to  amend,  rejected,  396. 

Nwative  Stete  laws  eoasidered,  75, 
285;  rejected,  79,  287;  mutual 
negative  of  branchea  considered, 
347;  power  to  negative  Stete  laws, 
458. 

Power  of,  debated,  88,  ^7;  general, 
283,  285;  of  confederation,  280;  to 
legislate  where  Stete*  incompetent, 
considered,  S8,  280;  to  use  force 
against  delinquent  States,  37; 
to  provide  for  amending  con- 
stitution, without  consent  of,  di*- 
cn**ed,  89;  postponed.  00;  to  origi- 
nate bills  agreed  to,  404;  to  revise 
act*  by  executive  and  legielature 
pn^oaed,  405;  rejected,  408;  to 
tax,  410;  agreed  to,  412;  to  tex 
exports,  discttsaed,  438;  to  tax  ex- 
porte  prohibited.  442;  to  tax  with 
eonient  of  Stete*,  rejected,  481; 
to  tax  by  raqniattlon,  438;  to  tax 
impo*t*,  470;  clau*e  agreed  to,  470, 
480;  to  lay  taxe*.  clause  reported, 
607;  t«  emit  Mils  agreed  to,  414; 
to  borrow  money  agreed  to,  414;  to 
define  piracies,  etc.,  agreed  to,  418; 
to  appoint  TrcMorer,  415;  struck 
ont,  583;  to  provide  for  appoint- 
mente  by  lower  offlcera,  572;  to 
■nppre**  rebellion,  di*cu**ed,  417; 
agreed  to,  418;  dcilned.  418;  re- 
jected. 418;  war  power  eontidered. 
418;  agreed  to.  419;  of  peace 
agreed  to,  410;  over  incorpora- 
tion, 420;  to  grant  charter*  for 
incoraoratlon  proposed,  584;  re- 
jected, 584;  over  seat  of  govern- 
ment, 420;  over  copyrights,  420; 
over  invention,  420;  over  forts, 
etc.,  420;  over  pubUc  land*,  420, 
403,  404;  over  Indian*,  420;  over 
militia,  421,  425,  435, 451, 458,  585; 
to  raise  amies,  423;  to  maintain 
navy,  agreed.  424;  over  debta,  421, 
435,  457,  486;  to  aecure  creditor*, 
421;   to  rqfulate  steges,  421;   to 


INDEX 


713 


gnat  tettcn  tt  auk.  411 
«df*  opiaioM  of  jMdfM, 

Ug.  priTllv*  «![-*■?' 

Slli  to  nalM  mmptvMT  la 


gnat  tettcn  of  aark.  4>1(  to  n- 

Blwn.  487, 

Bi.  i  w  ..».  ..^ptaaiT  Uwt,  pio- 
poMd.  4».  SMi  to  itedae  tmapa. 
SoTto  mJw  Uwt.  4S0i  toMtabllth 
oMeM,  ifjMtad,  4S0;  to  taka  mmm 
wltUa  ttoM  y«»,  436;  wi«» 
StatM  BOt  oompittat,  448;  to  tol- 
ill  tafagcBwaU  of  old  MraraaMat, 
480;Tm  Mill  of  erJit,  478;to 

CI  narlgatioa  acta,  483;  agrcM 
487 ;  to  adaiH  atw  SUtaa.  487 ; 
elanaa  agraad  to,  4M;  to  r^»*» 
eoBuaaroa,  801;  to  aaUbUaliliwai- 
reptcy  Uwt,  603.  604;  to  maka 
tnatfoa.  807;  to  ooarwia  aitiwr 
bonaa  la  astnordiaary  alMion, 
agTMd  to,  637;  to  cat  eaa^  6M; 
tajaetad.  864;  to  craato  aalTefaity, 
rajaetad,  666;  aot  to  pa-  «•  »«« 
/Mto  Uwt.  866;  prohlSitloB  oa  to- 
painaaat  of   coatncto  aegattTad, 

Proparty  qnaliflcatioaa,  eoaaidarad, 
sfS;  WLgH^  to.  378;  cUaaa  atrack 
out.  876;  la  ropwaaitatk^  dla- 
eniMd,  S12;  diaagread  to,  813. 

Qnonna,    diaeaaaad.    376;     aot 
rajeetad.  878.  ^  _^ 

QaalMeattoat  for  aiamliaM.  poat- 
poaad,  34;  diaeaaaad,  387;  fllglbil- 
ItT  of  aMBiben  poatpowad.  401; 
•ligibUlty  of  aNntien  to  cWl  of- 
flo^  60S;  MBban  to  hold  ao  otber 
ofiea.  lajacted,  604;  to  bold  ao 
other  fadenl  offlce,  agraad  to.  808. 

puMd,  88;  both  Imaehct  to  h*T0 
iqual  rapreaeatatloa,  PMW^  8«; 
aqnal  Toto  of  Btetea  ra]aetdl.  188; 
qaeatioa  of  raptaaaatotUm  com- 
mittad.  216;  lapraaeatattoa  tj 
wealth  aad  aaaibera  laconaldafad, 
848;  wealth  aa  a  baate  for  rapra- 
acatatkm  atraek  out.  261;  rapra- 
taatatioa  ooaaiderad.  263. 

TWrm  for  maMban  of  flrat  braach 
ooaaidered,  81;  trieaaUl  rteeUon 
•grred  to,  92.  ,  ^ 

Time  of  meetlag,  348;  date  for  meat- 
ing,  340;  annual  meeting,  381; 
diKaeaed,  370;   agreed  to,  371. 

Two  brancbee  agreed  to,  31,  142;  dia- 
eataad.  132;  alngla  chamber  re- 
jected, 139. 

Honae  of  SepreseatatiTce,  eompnta- 
tkm  for  mambert  diacnaaed,  »2;  to 
be  fixed  br  legiaUture,  agreed  to. 
03;  word  ''^liberal "  itrtick  out,  93; 
equal  vote  of  Statea  ia.  rejected, 
188;     repraaaatatioB     cooadared, 


211;   ratio  ti  raptaaaatatioa  dia- 
eaaaad. 213;   ntio  of  rapraaaata- 
tioa.  224;   poatpoaed,  224;   to  ba 
regaUtad     by     legiaUtare.     284; 
rapieaaatotioa  ooonaittad,  226;  ia- 
craaae  ia  rapraaaatatioa  diaagraed 
to.  230;  apportioBBiMt  agreed  to. 
830;  propMtioa  of  bUeka la  rwre- 
aeaUtioa,  833 ;  ai|ual  rajaetad.  234 ; 
repraaaatatioB  by  wealth  rajaeted, 
238 ;  eanaaa  approrad,  238 ;  Uaeka  aa 
thraa-flftha  eoaaidarad.  239;  rajaet- 
ad. 940;  ceaaea  agreed,  240;  equal 
rapreaentatioB  of  bUeka  rejected, 
846 ;  threa-iftha  propoaitioa  agreed 
to,  246;  rapraaaatatioa  agraad  to, 
269;    repreeeataUoB   by    taiatioa 
agraad  to,  388;  rapreaaatatioa  by 
akwrn  debated.  360;    by  free  la- 
tebitaato  rajaetad,  361;onaatlaaBt 
agreed  to,  361;  aiotioa  for  reeoa- 
aideratioB  of  repreaeatatioa,  ioat, 
638;   motioa  to  reooaaider  rapra- 
aaatatioa, Ioat,  860;  rapreaeatatioB 
recoaaiderad,    668;    rapraaaatatioa 
chauged.  880;  aUetioa  to,  eoaaid- 
arad. 31.  60;  dacttoM  to.  by  pai^le, 
a«r«Nd    to.    33.    144;    eleetioa   by 
State  lagiaUtarea,  88,  67;  eUnae 
prdiiUtmg   reetactioa   for   period 
of  yaara.  atraek  ont.  94;  age  limit 
of  aiembera  atraek  out.  98;  age  of 
aMiabara  diaeaaaad,   149;    twenty- 
Ato  yaara  for  Arat  braach  agreed 
to,  149;  eligibility  of  membert  to 
oOce  diacnaaed.   160;    ineligibUity 
of     BMaiben     of     legiaUture     to 
oOcaa,   diaeuaaad,    160;    diaagreed 
to,  161;  iaeligibili^  dnrtu  term 
aad  for  oaa  year  aiacaitad,  162; 
iaaligiUlity    of    BMtaban    to    of- 
iloea   durUg   tOTm    and    for    one 
year  diaagreed  to,  164;  iaeli^bility 
agraad  to,  166;  inaligUiUity  duriag 
term  agreed  to,  166;  for  oaa  year 
thereafter  dtaagraed  to,  166;  reai- 
deaee   of  me^n  debated.   366; 
aerea  yaara  propoaed,  386;   abort 
|»eriod    rejected.    367;    iahabitant 
anfaatitated  for  reaideat.  367;  oae 
year  piopoeed,  387;  rajaeted,  388; 
three  yean  reiaetad,  368;   repre- 
aentatioB  ia,  366;  three  yean'  citi- 
mthlp  required,  376;  term  of  citi- 
aeathip  for  aerrice  ia,  ooaaidered, 
384;   HamUton'a  motioa   rejeeted, 
388;  nine  yean  njected.  386;  four 
yaara  njected,  386;  tboaa  already 
citiieaa  eligible,  386;  motioa  Ioat, 
388;  fin  yean  propoaed,  388;  loet, 
388;    term    diecuaaed,    144;    two 
yean'  term  for  flnt  braach  agreed 
to.  146;  BUMMy  biUa  la,  216,  383; 


i 


nA 


INDEX 


Boaay  Mis,  neontidcnd,  SM,  388 1 
to  ongiiuto  revinue  bills,  ciauae 
•greed  to,  637 ;  flnt  braneli,  ancnd- 
mcnt  relative  to  direct  taxing 
power,  lo«t,  S00. 
Senate,  motion  to  eoniider,  rejreted, 
41;  considered,  162;  election  to, 
considered,  »4,  t»i  hj  Stet*  legis- 
latures disagreed  to,  SS;  fay  State 
legislatures,  carried,  74 1  age  and 
eitisenship  agreed  to,  04,  S88;  term 
agreed  to,  M;  to  ssnre  without 
salary,  rejected,  06;  seven  years 
agreed  to,  06,  166;  six  yrars  dis- 
agreed to,  166;  term  considered, 
166;  nine  years  reiected,  171;  six 
years  agreed  to,  171;  compensation 
considered,  06,  165,  171;  by  SUtes 
reiected,  172;  eligibility  to  State 
offloes  considered,  173;  ineligibil- 
ity to  be  same  as  for  first  branch, 


06; 


06;  ineligibility  to  national  ofllces 
agreed  to,  173;  to  State  offleea  re- 
jected, 174;  term  agreed  to,  867; 
citizenfibip  of  members,  367;  four- 
teen years'  citisenship  for  members 
rejected,  370;  thirteen  years  re- 
jected, 370;  ten  years  rejected, 
370;  nine  years  agreed  to,  370;  in- 
habitants agreed  to,  370;  clause 
•greed  to,  371 ;  rule  of  suffrage 
discussed,  00,  188;  vote  in,  con- 
sidered, 101.  215,  246,  253,  365; 
equal  vote  by  States  rejected,  201 ; 
equal  vote  in,  carried,  221;  ques- 
tion of  one  vote  for  each  State, 
210;  two  from  each  State  agreed 
to,  310;  vote  in  per  capita,  de- 
bated, 300,  865;  vote  in,  per 
oap«ta  agreed  to,  310,  366;  mem- 
bers to  be  chosen  by  legislatures, 
•greed,  165;  •«,  30  years,  agreed, 
165;  term  of,  considered,  165; 
representation  In,  moved,  165;  post- 
poned, 165;  question  of  representa- 
tion committed,  205;  committee  on 
representation,  205;  report  of  com- 
mittee on  representation,  206; 
representation  proposed,  253;  mem- 
bers from  each  State,  debated,  310; 
right  to  enter  dissent,  370 ;  motion 
lost,  !I80;  appointmentF  hf,  455; 
power  to  make  trea«i»s,  467; 
power  to  settle  State  controversies, 
conaidrred,  460;  impeachment 
power,  607,  535;  mode  of  impeach- 
ment, 508;  clause  agreed  to,  537; 
to  make  treaties,  clause  reported, 
508;  appointment  to  otRce,  508; 
ask  opinion,  heads  of  departments, 
608;  to  participate  in  treaty  mak- 
ing, 530;  power  to  originate  money 
bills,  negatived,  09:   money  bills. 


considered,  807,  253;  money  bills, 
to  amend,  404;  question  postponed, 
404;  Franklin's  plan,  106;  Pinek- 
ney's  proposition  rsjected,  250; 
•qoal  vote  agreed  to,  260;  secret 
Journals,  380;  vacancies  to  bs  sr- 
rangsd  by  legislatures  rejected, 
864;  to  be  fllM  fay  Isgislatnres  or 
•xscutives,  agrsed  to,  364;  vacan- 
cies considered,  368;  to  be  filled  by 
executives,  agreed  to,  864;  quorum 
to  be  two-thirds,  rsjseted,  634. 

Letter  to  aeeompany  constitution.  563. 

Liberty  of  the  press,  487;  to  be  ob- 
ssrvsd,  565;  clause  rejseted,  566. 

Livingston,  William,  N.  J.,  attends.  56; 
on  grand  eommittss  on  assump- 
tion of  SUte  debts,  423;  delivers 
report  of  grand  oonunittee,  435; 
on  committee  on  navigation  acts, 
448;  presents  report  of  committes 
of  eleven,  480;  on  committes  on 
sumptuary  Paws,  558. 

Madison,  James,  Va.,  attends,  17;  on 
powers  of  executive,  SO;  opposes 
removability  of  executive  by  SUte 
legislatures,  47;  insists  on  inde- 
pendence of  executive,  271,  285; 
favors  varying  ratio  for  electors, 
for  executive,  288;  favors  im- 
peachability  of  executive,  201;  fa- 
vors slectk>n  of  executive  by  elec- 
tors, 318;  favors  idea  voting 
for  two  men  for  executive,  322; 
thinks  President  should  make 
treaties,  458;  objects  to  Senate's 
power  in  choosing  President,  468; 
moves  Presideat  only  fill  exist- 
ing oflfees,  464;  moves  modifica- 
tion of  oath  for  President,  472; 
objects  to  president  of  Senate  to 
succeed  President.  472;  objects  to 
•lection  of  President  by  majority 
vote,  500;  favora  eventual  elee- 
tim  of  President  by  Senate, 
516;  moves  eventual  election  of 
President  when  less  than  one-ttird 
vote  for  one  man,  516;  moves  that 
electors  not  voting  be  not  eonnted, 
517;  moves  two-thirds  of  Senate 
be  present  when  voting  for  Presi- 
dent, 528;  inslsta  on  increase  in 
repressntation  of  States  to  vote 
for  President,  526;  favors  execu- 
tive council,  BSi;  opposes  inpeach- 
ment  for  maladministration,  535; 
objects  to  trial  of  President  1^  Sen- 
ate, 585;  thinks  President  should 
not  have  pardoning  power  over 
treason,  571;  on  principle  of  repre- 
sentation, 20 ;  opposes  equal  repre- 
sentation.  30;   ttilnfcn  electiiai  of 


INDEX 


715 


tugt  bruMh  of  Icgitktnn  l^  pco- 
pl«  MMntUl,  S3;  oa  alaetloM  to 
Beiutto,  36;  on  dcflnitioii  of  powan 
of  natioa*!  Ugiilkture,  36;  eon- 
■idcn  elaetloii  of  on*  branek  of 
legiiUtnrt  tij  tk*  poopla  ntt»umrj, 
M;  fsTora  Hiwll  Bcuto,  70;  op- 
DOOM  •loetloB  of  ScMte  by  State 
IcgiiUtnTM,  78;  Moondt  notion 
to  elwt  BMaben  of  flnt  bnwek 
•TOTjr  tkn*  jmn,  01 ;  movM  legis- 
lature fU  eomj<eaiatlon  for  mem- 
bcri,  92 ;  p«MM,  43 ;  approre*  aeyen 
Tfara  a*  Senate  erm,  M;  oppowa 
annual  elwtiona  for  flnt  maek 
of  lefialaturo,  145 ;  favor*  national 
campMuatlon  of  lagiilaturo,  147; 
wants  compeniation  of  legislature 
fixed  in  constitution,  148;  mores 
insligibiUty  of  menbsrs  of  first 
branch  of  legislature  during  term 
and  for  one  year,  152;  opposes 
absolute  ineli^bilitr  of  members 
of  Isgtalaturs  to  oiBees,  153;  pro- 
poses rule  of  voting  in  Senate,  IM ; 
seconds  moUon  to  consider  repre- 
aentetioa  fai  Senate,  IM;  explains 
object  of  Senate,  167;  opposes 
coupenaation  of  Soiators  by 
States,  172;  objecto  to  equal  vote 
of  States  in  legislature,  177;  con- 
tends for  proportional  repressnta- 
tion  in  Senate,  193;  inaiste  oa 
proportional  representation  in  Sen- 
ate, 198;  oppoMes  commitment  of 
question  of  representation  in  Ssn- 
ate,  205;  insisto  that  reprsssnta- 
tion  of  States  be  considered,  221 ; 
proposes  numbers  as  basis  of 
repressntatioa  in  first  branch  of 
iMislatnre  and  wsalth  for  Senate, 
225;  on  committee  on  representa- 
tion, 226;  moves  increase  In  repre- 
sentation, 220;  favors  fixing 
standard  of  representation,  236; 
favors  PincfcneVs  proposition  for 
Senate,  254;  inslste  on  propor- 
tional representation,  256;  favors 
continuance  of  Congress,  280; 
would  exclude  debtors  from  Isgis- 
lature,  327;  suggesta  annual  meet- 
ing of  legislature,  348;  wishes 
legislature  to  meet  in  llay,  360; 
favors  inhabitante  for  members  of 
legislature,    366;     opposss    seven 

Sears'  residence  in  State  for  mem- 
ers  of  legislature,  866;  objeete  to 
rule  of  represoitatioB,  369;  moves 
to  limit  representoti<m,  369;  moves 
vacancies  in  Senate  be  filled  by 
l^slatures  or  executives,  364; 
thinks  legislature  can  fix  question 
of    citiienship    for    Senate,    367; 


moves  first  hraaeh  of   Isgislature 
nams  time  of  msaiiag.  371 ;  thinks 
Isgislature   shouki    rsgulate    else- 
tkMS,    371;    tkinks   onalifieations 
for  IsfMaturs  shMild  bs  Ixsd,  374, 
375;  movss  leglslntiirs  compel  at- 
tendance, 378;  movss  sxpulsion  of 
members  of   hgiatoture,   878;    on 
Journals  of   Is^slature,   380;    in- 
slste on  compensation  of  members 
of    tegislatnre    by    nation,    401; 
moves  power  of  legislature  to  de- 
clare war,  418;  repreaaatatioB  only 
tanporary,    437;     proposes    two- 
tkirds  of  Senate  for  quorum,  634; 
seeaads  motion  for  rseonsidsration 
of  nmbsr  of  rsprsssntativea,  638; 
doubte  If  Ugislatnre  abould  judge 
privileges  of  members,  611;  tkinks 
Congress  can  propose  smendmente, 
674;    movee   revision   of   aete   by 
executive  and  Judiciary,  66,  406; 
favors   appolntmcat   of   Judieiarv 
by  Senate,  67;  favors  inferior  tri- 
bunals in  nathmal  Judiciary,  60; 
movss  Isgislature  have  power  to 
institute  inferior  tribunals,  61 ;  fa- 
vors aasoeiatkm  of  Jndktiary  with 
scseutive  in  revMon  of  laws.  67, 
296,  298;    moves   that   Judges   of 
national  judiciary  be  appointed  by 
Senate,  97;  agreed  to,  97;  move* 
that  Jurisdiction  of  natkmal    iu- 
dieiary  should  aztsnd  to  easss  In 
volving  rwrenue  and  impeaehment, 
97;   agreed  to,   97;   suggesta  ap- 
pointmsnt  of  Judges  by  executive 
and  Senate.  276;   moves  appoint- 
ment of  Judges  by  executive  with 
two-thirds  ol  Senate,  277;  favors 
wpolntment  of  Judges  by  execu- 
thra  with  consent  of  Senate,  301, 
SOS;    thinks    salaries    of    Jndps 
should  not  bs  inersaaed,  277,  474; 
doubta  U  Jnrlsdtetton  of  Judiciary 
should  extend  to  casss  under  con- 
stitution,  475;    moves  for    term 
"Judfeial    power,"     476;     favors 
qualified  Bsgativo  <A  executive  on 
laws,  63;  favors  negative  on  State 
laws  hf  legisIatuTS,  76,  78,  266, 
478,     SS8;     favors     qualification 
mutual  nsgativs  of  both  branches 
of  legislature,  347;   moves  nm- 
tive    extend   to   resolutions,    408; 
favors    nsgatlve    on    State    laws, 
456;  favors  three-fourths  vote  to 
set  aside  President's  negative,  666; 
defends  taxation  by  representation, 
247;   favors  tax  on  exporte,  410, 
440;  propoaea  taxation  of  exports 
by   two-thirda   vote,    441;    inaiata 
on   power   of   legialature   to   tax 


716 


INDBX 


impert^  47l>!  oppoMt  pcirar  ol 
autm  to  tu  taporta,  4abi  tktelu 
HtetM  aay  Iwy  raport  dutlM  to 
p«7  dwrgi*,  SS7;  fovon  power 
ovw  ailitis,  4M|  aipUtei  po»«r 
Oft  HiUltte,  451 1  fam*  MiioMl 
CMtroI  of  ■llitte,  408)  tkiaks  good 
■""••  MCMMury.  4M;  motm 
'*^.^.  •PP'tatiM.t  of  oOetn  of 
■illtia,  484 1  favon  teviac  momt 
UIU  orMMUi  in  8«Mto~97;  op- 
poM«  orifflMtlBC  MOMy  UIU  In 
flwt  brmnc)!  of  lagWatun,  «07  i  op- 

MS,  Mk|  tlihika  Staato  ma/dialii' 
Uh  money  bllla.   301;   oblMti  to 
ratifleatioaa  of  trcatiM,  4M;  mtm- 
iwta  dUtiaetioa  ia  power  to  muTe 
treatiea,  409;  novea  aacadiMat  to 
traatr  elauM,  469;  propoaaa  tnat- 
toe  of  pcaee  by  majority  of  SenaU, 
BSOj   oppoaea  power  to  nae  forre 
Mateat  a  Suto.  JTj  favora  rati- 
fkmtkm  of  eonatittttioB  by  eoBTen- 
tloM,  09,  SMi  ■wrea  worda  "on 
partition  **  be  added  to  reaoi«tion 
piaraatceiBf    repnblicaa    >oTem- 
ment  and  territory  to  each  SUte. 
89;   paaerd,  89;   aupporU  eoarea- 
tion'a   powen,   ISO;   againat   Pat- 
tWBOB'.  plan,  110)  tUnlca  SUtee 
will  increaaa  on  national  gavara- 
■«"t,    141,    diaeoaaaa    rigita    of 
Btatea,    IM;    movaa  gnaiutaeiaK 
Statee  againat  riolmec  Ml ;  faron 
P»P«»ty    qualiUcatioB    for    od^. 
828;  favora  franehiae  for  fre^old- 
ert.   303;    tbinka  aeat  of  gwvem- 
meat  muat  be  flMd,  SSS;   faron 
liberal   polley  towarda  foreignera. 
S84,   thfaika  obiigationa  of  §tat^ 

ttlnka  bOIa  of  credit  ibonM  not 
*??"'>  *"'  ■»«»»••  to  atrike  out 
imnUiBMit  wKh  reference  to 
piraciea,  410;  aovea  power  to  de- 
Sue  piraciea,  etc..  dfOi  propoaea 
power  orer  landa.  new  StatMLln- 
dlan*.  ieat  of  gofenunent,  iaeor- 
PoratioB.,  /opyri^t,  nnireraity, 
inventiont,  forta,  490;  morea  power 
to  create  offleea.  430;  firora 
fP7"  *?  ^'too  trcaaiw,  430; 
think,  it  ahovld  be  confined  to 
nation.  481;  favora  rcatrietion  of 
treaaon,  434;  on  committee  on 
"ligation  acta,  448;  thinka  prtf- 
ririon  to  fnlflli  «^w?ementa  of 
OM  gwenment  neeeaaary,  480;  ob- 

to  idea  tbat  there  can  be  p^mw? 
in  men,  400;  would  proUttt  itola- 
tion    of    eontncta,    479;    thinks 


479)  tkiaka  rrfamlal  ^yateVtoo 
•»;|»P«.   480)    Bom   iHiiaUture 
provide  tor  eiaeirtloa  of  JnteMata. 
♦Ml    farora    navtaatio.   irtlTby 
■aiority,  480;  inabta  new      m^ 
•hall  be  adatotad  on  equality,  487) 
OMMiaad    to   Mition   of    Weatorn 
•»«atry,  4W:    thlaka  ratUUntkm 
mnet   cobm   froa   Majority,    4»«i 
fayora  ceaTentioM  to  ratify,  497) 
thinka  veaaela  may  clear   in  dif. 
IWrent  Statea  from  that  to  which 
it  ia  bound,  ROl;   on  «"— ^Httr 
OB  peatpooed  aeamraa,  OM;    oa 
coBimHtee  on   itylo,   sii,    iMrea 
■ode  of  amandment.  840)  oppoaea 
aoapeniion  from  oOee  of  paraons 
impeached,  081;   propoam  naiTer- 
aity,  084;  propoaaa  power  to  grant 
ehartara,   084;    favora   preeaotion 
againat  army  in   time  of   peace, 
MO;  propoaea  aeeowrt  of  aspewii- 
tnres  be  paUiahad  from  timato 
time,  OM;  thinka  rnmm»«a  ooght 
to  be  under  one  authority,  070; 
•ztraet  of  letter  to  Thomaa  Jeffer- 
•on,  OM;  extract  of  letter  to  Ed- 
mund   Randolph,    090)    letUr    to 
0«W(»  Waihington,  092;  note  on 
the  Pinckney  plan,  8M;  remarks 
on  qneatkni  of  aoffrage,  819. 
Manufacturers,   encouragement  of,   by 

impoata,  479. 
Marc  and  repriaal,  Icttera  of.  421. 
Martin,  Alexander,  N.  C,  attenda,  17; 
aeeonda  motfon  of  InelivlbilitT  of 


Utwe    and    for    ona   year,    188; 
aeeonda  motion  againat  seat  of  bot- 
ernment  at  State  etpital,  332. 
Martin,    Luther,    Md.,    atte^ida.    70; 
movea  alaetioH  of  eneotive  by  elec- 
tors. 2rOj  movea  to  eonsider  riigi- 
Wlity  of  necutive  to  aeeond  term, 
274;  fiTora  ineHgibtli^  of  exeen- 
tire  for  aeeond  twm,  282;  movea 
ineligibility  of  executive  for  sec- 
ond term.  287.  313;   movea  ratio 
of    electon    be    committed,    289; 
pwpoaea  term  of  eleven  vean  for 
fXMtttjve,  314;  seconds  efcetioB  to 
Mslatnre   by   State   kviaUtures. 
1418;  on  etwimittee  on  repreeenta- 
«on  in  Senate.  200;  wania  report 
rt^    committee    on    repreaentation 
voted  on,  206;  asks  basis  of  ratio 
of  r<-preaentation,  224 ;  opposea  vot- 

2f  L.'^fl  *"'^*"  '■  Senate,  310; 
thinks  Senate  should  be  paid  bv 
State.  408;  inriat.  on  i^tZ 
««rt  of  Judges  by  Senate,  2fs7  op- 
poaea   Inferior    judicial    tribnals. 


INDEX 


tWi  opyoM*  r^UioMry  po^*'  of 
Judicim,  |t7,  mtnm  nuMaa* 
■Nirt  h*w  JarMietkw  onr  iMd 
cMM^  4M|  iMm  pnt>|ininw,ut  ol 
q«M»lo«  ol  MMy  bUk.  116; 
wtafci*  toiQMiiir  aoMy  bUla  ud 
««t«  !■  SMMte  toHAkw.  nut  ofH 


PMM  noHlri^  (MtlH  fna 
Mn  ol  BteU  mmnmtai  to 

ithw. 


tfcUki  MMr*'  jovOTiiaat    mi 
•pnte  tkfougk  8Uto  awtraBwU. 
m:  tktek.  Jmm  mtiS.  IM,  In^ 

*U    M    MIMl    tUkU    of    MMll 

8UtM  ia  8«Mt«.  aoi ;  ftvon  «oa- 
pnaliii^aiSt  wtehw  ooapnMiiM 
MMMoNd,  Ul|  BofM  wmriwtiy 
•<  MtioMi  Uw,  M7t  tUalH  8tot4 
•kwM  MippnM  nMlkma,  881; 
wonM  dteqiw]l(y  doMon  for  oMm. 

i^• -?*•  ■"■'^  •*  "•■*•»  »»A 
mpottak  40B|  oppoM*  poww  to  wip- 
yrtw    NhcllkHi    iB    StoU,    417: 
■OTM  to  Uait  May  )■  tia*  of 
P«M*.   4M|   MOVM  eoBfawiea   m 
fiwiad  f«r  eonviatioB  for  tf<«w». 
4«4;  favon  tantia*  by  nqviai. 
tto^  48«i  Pfopow  tut  Ml  iipor- 
«»tloB  of  davM,  441;  oa  eoaait- 
♦j*  OB  MTl«ktioB  acta,  448;  favon 
■Ute    ooatrol    of    mUltia,    4S3; 
awvM  iapttftu  tnatiiM^  of  porU 
of  «tnr.  4W;  aovM  pudaa  Ubu 
eoDTietioa,  472;  withdnwB  aetlon, 
47S|  mofw  to  adait  mw  Statta 
«B   two4kifda   vota.   4M;    tUaka 
■17  «!»*«  ■*!  ba  enatad  witkia 
M  Stataa.  488;  aM*«a  to  aaaatt 
qujjtloa   of    aakiac   a«w    Stataa 
wiUia  old.  4M;  ^iaka  Waatara 
eoMtry   may  aaparata   f>am   old 
Btetaa,  401 ;  aMvaa  powar  ut  erwta 
^»t^  481;  iaaiata  tm  latUeatioa 
■7    8UU    lagialatuna,    408;    op- 
„    poaaa  eoaatftntioa,  4M. 
MaaoB,  Qtotgt.  Va,  attaada,  17;  faTora 
•«7aa  yean  aa  tarm  for  eseentlTe, 
40;  farora  aleetfam  of  aMeativa  by 
people,  41 ;  oppoaea  depwdaaee  of 
ezecntlTe  apoa  Icgialatnre,  48;  op- 
poaea ezaeutlTe  Mwer.  64:  tbUb 
eieeatire     ahould     ba     protaetad 
aoaiiut  legiaUtora,  88;  thtak*  peo- 
ple can  not  aleet  ezeenthre,  M9; 
pppoaed  to  term  of  ezeei^Ta  dor- 
fa*  food  bebarior,  272;  lavora  Sm- 
peaebaUli^    <rf    aneathra,    »0; 
fawa  lartigibnity  of  asaentiva  for 
coatfaiaoaa  reeleetioa.  821;  tetora 
weetloB  of  exaentiTe  by  kgialatwa, 
«4!    favors   seven   rears  gad  to- 


S8;  ing 

■net  Jaet 


717 

^WbUlty,  MS;  moree  modlSca- 
f^u^'-f^  'or  Preaideat,  478; 
thlaka  Preridaat  wlU  be  eleeted  by 

f-*  *•  ""J*^  «rtbwo  eaadldatea. 

"!'  *S^.  "'^^  "*  ••**ora 
autoeiatia,  818;  rrnpnaai  naaatlve 
•ottMdl.  881;  ralaeted.  B8lt  tklaka 
fwoMeat  ak«unot  ia».  aantoa- 
taf  power  oyer  traaaoa.  sfli  ob- 
ieeu  to  nOa  forywi  aad  aay%  18; 
iMow  J***^  of  larger  bn^  of 
•^llftatnre  by  peopta,  88;  favore 
olaetioa  to  Seaaie  iy  State  leftala- 
tonab  74;  appeaw  aaaawt  oTleKia- 
■•tare  to  STaeeMaafy  to  aSad 
2!f*""iJ^   ••»     "oweWwatloa 

cTKLp.asrSr'tte 

Mi  mo  deatioa  to  lefialatoa  by 
peepH  IM;  fa«im  bSaakU  alee- 
Uow  f or  irat  braaeh  of  laiiaiatare. 
148;  morea  tweaty-fb«  yaara  aa 
•«•  of  meabara  of  Srat  btaaeh. 
148;  fkvora  iaaliglbUity  of  mem- 
bera  of  Srat  braadi  of  legtaiatare 
to  eMea.  180. 188;  tUaka it  lAarae- 
tera  fer  oAaea  wffll  be  fmnd,  154; 
eooeato  proaerty  ipialMeatioa  for 
Baaatota,  178;  aa  enaimMtee  oa 
TopraawilaUua  la  Seaata.  208;  ia- 
•wte  oa  aeeoaaodatioa  oa  repre- 
aeatatioa.  811;  moeea  to  eeaaider 
i«*e  ia  Seaate,  818;  favora  iaereaaa 
of  npeweatatiaa.  888;  thiaka 
b^  e<  rqweaMtatiea  Aoald  be 
■sed,  881;  tbteka  alavaa  eatWed 
to  repreeeiilaUuB.  884;  oaaeeee 
«Mltk  aa  ha^  «(  rapreoMlEiStoa^ 

laaaatathm.  888;  tUnka  tkree 
Beaatora  from  each  State  too 
jaaay.  810;  moirae  oaalMaatioae  for 
lMrillatar^  M;  laTora  <|aaN«ea- 
tloaiifor  lajrJrtatare,  887;  would 
exchrfa  debtma,  887;  favora  aa- 
anal  maetiaff  of  kgialrhua,  840; 
farora  aarea  veara*  eltia  hto  for 
■«bere  of  hgialatore.   805;    Ui- 

be  reaidaaU  of  Stataa,  307;  pro- 
poeaa  oae  year,  887;  faTora  Tote 
f>*r  <mpUm  te  Stwata,  888;  fkTora 
loag  tarm  eUisrtaUp  for  membera 

Stk«'7S^'of''222LS- 

SiJa^i  ""^onara  or  i^giaialiue, 
978 ;  favora  jm»  aad  aaya  at  re^ 

qneatrfoa^Ath.  870;  oa  iwMieity 
fa  legiaiatiira,  881;  thiafa  mem- 
teTB  of  iigiaiaian  abonid  be  iaalig- 


718 


INDEX 


ibU  to  oAc*.  SM:  tklalu  bfto- 
UtMN  ikonld  hav*  yowar  to  talt 
kill*  of  endit,  «Ui  tklaka  tfMft- 
wtr  ought  to  bt>  •ppotaM  bj 
legiaUtvn,  4ISi  tefon  ptvu  to 
prtwriba  pwishant  for  pinelM. 
4ISi  tklnka  Icfritlatwro  wist  k«tr* 
power  oTcr  fvBd%  Ml  I  tkbdu  Sm- 
«ta  hat  too  Buck  powtr,  571;  ob- 


Joett  to  apBolntaMBt  of  H«m  bgr 
nMuthro,  ST4-,  okJorU  to  appolat- 
■tat  of  J«4fM  br   SMMto,  275; 
tklnki  Inlarior   Judicial   tribunali 
BWMaary,   17»|    «a»of«   Judiciary 
with     uwuUvo     to     rtrUtoaary 
poww,  SM,  »•;  opiMMM  appotatp 
■Mt  ol  IndfM  by  MMUtiTc,  Wli 
favors     Ixed     ca»p«MatloB     for 
tadfM,   474;    propoM*   raguUtloa 
of  ■llitla.  4S1 ;  menrn  poww  ot« 
■Ultla.  4S4t  fuTOTi  limltad  power 
«««r    ■IllUa.    4as.    4M;     thtaks 
■MBcy   Ulla   ahould   origiMto   ia 
flrrt  braaek   of   tafisUtur*,   tI7; 
iaaiita  Baato  aay  aot  ortgtaato 
■oacy  Ulla,  sat;  ta««ra  proriafcm 
for  Boaay  Ulla,  S6S|  would  climi- 
aato  Stnate  froM  moaay  Ulla,  SW| 
favors  SMAto  poww  of  aawadawat 
of   aKHMy   Ulla,   404;    briags   np 
(maatloB    of    aioaay    Ulla,    4S7t 
thiaka  ■oraraaMiit  ihoatd  oporato 
OB    iadiridaala,   SS;    Btw  lOvrrB- 
•cat  to  operate  oa   pwpM,  Mi 
doaa   aot   sao   aoecaaity   lor   mo> 
Ttiioa  for  aaaadiait  eoaaUtutioB. 
N;  thteks  Btoto  gorora—ato  Buat 
have  poww  of  4afeaM.  1*4;  favors 
adaiiaaioB  of  atw  Stataa  on  equal 
twiM,  SIS ;  urges  eoaiproi     'i,  S16 ; 
favors  esBsua,  S48)   favors  guar- 
aatas  of  rapuUleaa  eoaatitutkia  to 
BtatM,  SflO;  favors  ratlfleatioa  by 
paopls,  SOS;  opposes  aiat  of  govem- 
■eat  at  Steto  eapitol,  SSS;  with- 
drawe  nwtion,  SSS;  opposes  antual 
aagativs  of  bcaaehcs  of  l«gislatar*, 
347;  opposes  rastriettoa  of  fraa- 
ehise,  SN;  eouaeels  eautloa  ia  ad- 
Bitting    foreigaen,    S87;    thiaks 
tr<«ties    aay    alieaato    territory, 
405:  opposes  tax  oa  export*.  410; 
thinks    govenuneat    should    have 
powpr  to  issue  papw  money,  414; 
on  grand  coouaittee  oa  assunptioa 
of  SUte  debts,  48S;  Boves  power 
to    make    suBptnary    laws,    429; 
definition  of  treaaon,  4S0;  thinka 
treascm  may  be  against  a  State, 
438;   moves   rcstrictioB,  434;   op- 
poses  tax    OB    exporta,    441;    de- 
nonnees  slave  trade  and  slavery, 
443;    oppose   powPT   to   aqjativo 


State  laws,  4M;  thtaks  legisiatare 
will  pay  drtts,  «M;  eapsssi  aoa- 
SaiBff  dave  trade  to  tbrse  Matee, 
4M;  opnosts  sasaaiageBeat  of 
•lave  trade,  4tt|  oa  eoaMlttee  oa 
iaposts,  470;  tklaka  SUtas  aiay 
■aks  aoMraeta,  4TS;  tktaka  Mates 
■ay  lay  aBbargsss.  470;  tUaks 
BUtes  awy  tax  taqierts,  4S0;  fa- 
vors two-thirds  vote  tor  navigatia* 
Mis,  4M;  favors  equality  of  Weat- 
ara  eouatry,  4S7;  favera  ratlSea- 
tioa  by  alaa  States,  4M;  oppoaea 
eeaatitutkB,  SOS;  would  exeluda 
oOes  seekers,  806;  usausn  ereatloa 
of  Vise  Prastdeat,  Sff7:  would  ex- 
tend reaaoaa  for  tapaaekoMat. 
SSS;  would  Bate  repeal  of  laws 
easy,  SSS;  favors  Bill  of  Righta, 
SSe,  BS7;  BMvcs  poww  to  pass 
suaaptuary  tews,  SSS;  oa  eoamlt- 
tee  oa  auBptuary  tewa,  858;  Bovef 
States  kavs  poww  to  lay  dotiss 
oa  exports  for  tospsetfcw.  588; 
tmn  Boaopoliss,  M<;  regards 
araies  as  dangereaa  ia  tixM  of 
paaes,  SSS;  would  sMks  out  m 
pott  faoto,  588:  propesaa  axpeadl- 
tarss  bs  aaaually  puMtohed,  586; 
tevors  poww  of  SCate  to  lay  da- 
tlee  on  toaaage,  670;  oppoeaa  plaa 
for  aBrndBent,  87S;  favora  two- 
thirda  vote  for  aavlgatioa  acts, 
575;  lest,  575;  saeoads  Botloa  for 
saeoad  eoavsattoa,  S76;  doca  not 

••r*.  ■•••  .     .. 

Meaurg,  Jaaiae,  Ta.,  attenda,  17; 
Bovea  lor  exacwttve  durlag  good 
bdBvior,  271;  iasisto  oa  tad^ 
peadeace  of  exeeotive,  S7S;  favors 
gaaraatseiag  Btotes  agalast  vio- 
leaee,  281 ;  asks  what  fores  exseu- 
tiv*  is  to  have.  204. 

MsHsary,  Jaaies,  lid.,  atteada,  18;  oa 
grand  eosmittes  on  assuBptloa  of 
State  debta,  4SS;  favors  taxatiM 
by  requisitiea,  438;  thiaks  cb- 
bargo  perBitted,  440;  eppoeed  to 
Ulla  of  attaiadw  aad  >m  pott 
f<teto  laws,  449;  proposae  State 
eoaseat  to  porta  of  entry,  470;  in- 
siste  eoBpoiiation  of  Judges  shall 
not  be  changed,  474;  bk>v<>s  Presi- 
dent have  power  to  convene  either 
home  of  Congreee  la  extraordinary 
sessioas,  537 ;  moves  poww  of  Steto 
to  lay  duties  oa  toanags,  500. 

Ifercw,  John  Fraaeia,  ](d..  attends, 
337;  oppoeee  free  fraaehiae,  364; 
Mipoaea  plan,  355;  thiaka  eaadi- 
Mtea  ahonid  be  noBinated  by 
State  legiflatures,  356;  opposes 
sevcB  yean'  rssidesce  ia  Stue  for 


INDBZ 


n» 


IHlrtafM.  «Mi  op- 

I  «t  hpMktvN,  U7 1  Utaka 
MriMt  Mil  te*ora  Im* 
tkM  •  ■•Joritjr  lor  •  qwrvB,  S7<; 
fliiac    anoraa, 
wUToiUy  kavo 


I    tklaka 
•gno  oa  iMkt 


nil  kofM 

lafltUth* 
iMlilatwt 

of  rwtwOTt.  Mil 

•iTMdjr  oMmh  k*  oMflbte  for  lofto- 
tetwa,  n6|  faMiaU  oa  good  fiSth 
towu4i  iowlaaoM,  Mi|  tkiako 
of  kfMlatvo  ■■*  koM 
li  oapoaM  iaon  >..■*▼  of 
M  kgWalr  »•  , 

■■■*'.     !>¥« 

ji'H        nf  In- 

fXiWtl        f (  T 

.   .>   on   <.<• 

r.j     «  «.    rr- 

iU^Dt     I.^        .-l    I'll'"    ', 

>  T  to  <*  r-'.'  r-i'  '•, 


tnatlM,  4M;  4nt 
dtoUrj  tododat*  i; 
favor*     roviilaar  , 

»,  4It;   «r      lut 
iak  pool    r' 

4ISt  lavon 
41«. 

Ibfckaata,  traaiunen    *tc     of  '  -?vl 

daaoo,  R.  I.,  M  >    of      '  r'.i  ir  ia" 

of  ooavMrtka,  lui?  il,  .    7.  WH. 

MIflfa,   Tkaain,   Pmb^   att.  ,.d ..    ><), 

WW  r  ;        •■■/;!i. 

el  hr-  to 


MlHyof  w 
oflk%   IN. 


MUttan  pOTMV  to  bo  Mbocdiaata  to 

ehril,  4tT. 
MUMa^MMT  to  rtplato.  ««1;  dlo^ 

to  gruid  Mantttoo,  4>7;  logiala- 
taro  to  kavo  powtr  «*ar,  4SS;  an- 
tborltj  «««r.  4Sli  partial  fedoral 
eoBtool  rojwttd.  4SI|  aaifMaiity 
ia  mahtlaM,  njoatod,  4M;  elanoo 
afTMd  to,  464i  State  appolstm«it 
M  lower  oAeoTik  4M;  rojoetod, 
464t  an  eCem  agro^  to,  4U; 
tralaiM  hf  TAiHoT  States  egrMd 
to,  4Ui  to  ko  callad  oat,  450; 
tmwcr  of  PrMkltut  over,  47>. 

Htaratea,  eooaitteo  to  rapertetead,  21. 

Moaej,  borrowing  power,  anced  to,  414. 

ItoMT  btlli,  origteatiag,  lOT,  916;  in 
llrst  kraaeb  agreed,  S19,  S60;  qnce- 
tioB  poetpoMd,  ttS{  dfaenHed, 
SC2i  ooaeidared,  SU;  reeoaaidered, 
88S,  884,  SM;  anelwiT*  eaatrel  of. 
la  first  tmuMh  of  legielitiire  re- 
jected, MS;  Seaate  to  amend,  re- 
jected, SH;  Seaate  to  aaeod,  404; 
ouestion  postooned,  404;  qneetlon 

Iforrie,  Oonyemear,  Pean.,  attends,  17; 
oppose*  Iegis!ster«  ckooeing  asses' 


tire,  MT|  favor*  sisstloa  of  sssen- 
tivs  b*  psofie,  M7,  IMi  favors 
eUgiblfUv  of  sassvttvs  for  sseoad 
tera,  STCi  favors  tsna  tor  good 
kskavtor  for  easeirtlve,  ITli  op- 
poesd  to  aeaareky,  t7li  tkiaks  ia- 
Bisukwsat  of  eseeative  engkt  not 
to  ke  trisd  hf  Jndgs%  ITBt  favors 
of  ssseativs  for  sseoad 
favors  skort  term  for 
eaeeative,  IM|  oppoes*  iamsaeka- 
Ulity  of  sMentive,  INi  tblaks 
cansss  of  lapsaekakUItT  of  csfeti- 
Uvs  skeald  bs  givsa,  ttli  tklnks 


sllgiMU^ 
tena,  Mti 


taipeaekaWltty  of  saeentive  aeecs- 
sary,  IM|  aovee  quallllcatieae  of 
eleetora,  SM;  enpnsss  rototloa  in 
'■'itlve,  ati;  favors  Idsa  of  vot* 
I  >,.  fv  two  persoae  for  eiecutlve, 
i;..  favors  wag  teanfo  for  essen- 
■  Uf  M,  wonld  give  easevtivs  sb- 
«!.  mgative,  UO;  eppoass  elce- 
t,io  '  Pfealdoat  hj  Isglelatnre, 
Af  .  .ovee  tbat  tke  Preeidsat  bo 
rr  ud  to  rsscaiawad  aad  report 
to  Uftslainrs,  444;  tblaks  assen- 
Ut  aav  eerre*pead  witk  Stotea, 
4T(  ;  objeste  to  prsetdeat  of  Sea- 
a'<  as  Slier wssr  to  PrssUsat,  47t; 
«splaiBa  iMde  of  eleetioa  of  Preei- 
'  «it,  500;  ohjesto  to  sloettoB  of 
:  feeMeat  kv  SMjoritf  vote,  505; 
:svora  evsatnal  etestms  of  Prssi- 
dsat  kv  Ssaato,  511;  defeads  aode 
of  deetioB  of  PrssUsat.  516;  fa- 
vera  asaarato  provisioa  for  rsalse- 
tioB  of  Prasidsat,  Sit;  dsfsads 
svstsni  of  destori^  StO;  favors  In- 
elnslen  of  Swats  In  appoiatiM, 
629;  opposss  ezssiiitve  eor  lefl, 
SSI;  tbJaka  eleetioa  of  Pret'ient 
will  prevent  ■wladmiaistratloa, 
5tS;  ^iaks  PrMridsafs  aagativo 
WKf  bo  est  asids  ^  ■atoltjr,  685; 
■    of  Trsai 


fkvors  appoiatasat 
bv  sseentlve. 


Iheaonivr 

602;  waato  Senate 
elected  by  tke  people,  70;  fSvors 
Independent  Saaata,  202;  opposes 
report  of  eoiBstlttee  on  reprsssnte- 
tion,  200;  favors  property  qnaliO- 
eatioB  for  repraeealatioa,  211; 
■ovee  eoBUBttment  queetloa  of  re)>- 
rtssatatfcm.  SIS;  oa  eomniittee  on 
represente'  n,  216;  repOTto  on 
ratio  of  tt  .  seatotioa,  22S;  nM>vre 
poetpenaan  of  qneetlon  of  ratio 
of  reprsesBiatioa,  224;  eipUine 
repraseatstioa  of  Georgia,  SS6;  on 
cuauBlttee  on  rapressntSTioni  220; 
tkinks  aontkem  Statee  kave  too 
■nek  rsprssentatka,  228;  opposes 
basis  of  repraseatotioa,  284;  taiaks 


no 


INDEX 


b*  flztd,  SS6;  thiidn  W«tt  ihoiild 
not  b*  rcpnMnUd  aqiiftUj,  2M; 
oppoMa  rapmmUtion  of  UmIh, 
248;  object*  to  eonnttng  nagroM  in 
npreacntation,  249;  moTM  eon- 
■Idarmtioa  o(  nprMcntatUHi,  203; 
oppoM*  qnotaa,  2M;  •pproTM 
dpflaitioB  of  powara  of  lagiabtnra, 
208;  oppoaca  nagativa  on  State 
Uwi  ir  IcgiaUtura,  205,  200; 
thiiiln  Congraaa  ought  not  to  ba 
eontiniiad,  279;  movea  rota  per 
capita  in  Sanata,  M9;  moTaa  thrae 
Sanatois  from  aock  State,  310; 
oppoaea  eiaetlon  of  asaeutive  by 
legialatora,  816;  on  qnalifleatioaa 
for  kgialatara,  327;  would  not  az- 
clnda  debtwa  from  lagialatnra,  327 ; 
wonid  modify  mntnat  negatira  of 
branehaa  of  Icglalatiire,  347;  op- 
poaea atated  meeting  of  legialature, 
348;  movea  lagialatore  meat  in 
May,  349;  faTora  aaren  yeara*  eiti- 
leniihip  for  mambera  of  fegialatiire, 
350;  oppoaea  inhabitanta  for  mem- 
ber* of  legialatora,  850;  oppoaea 
aiaTe  repreaantatton,  300;  objeeta 
to  Tacaneiea  in  Senate  being  fllled 
br  ezeeutiTe,  303;  faTora  motion 
that  Tseaneiea  in  Senate  be  flUed 
by  legislature  or  ezaentiTe,  304; 
propoaea  foortaen  ycara*  eitiaeaahip 
for  member*  of  Senate,  307 ;  movea 
thirte<«  yean'  eitizenahip  for 
membere  of  Senate,  309;  morea 
lint  branch  of  legialatun  name 
time  of  meeting,  371 ;  oppoaea  prop- 
erty qnaliflcation  for  legialatun, 
376;  more*  number  for  quorum, 
377;  think*  majority  may  expel 
memben  of  legitlatun,  378 ;  movea 
that  one  member  call  for  veaa  and 
nay*.  379;  on  right  of  diMent  in 
legialatun,  379;  move*  thoae  a1- 
rfady  citizena  be  eligible  for  legia- 
latun, 380;  oppoaea  ineligibility  of 
memben  of  l(i(i*lRture  to  ofBce*, 
398,  400;  move*  eligibility  of  mem- 
ber* of  legielatun  to  army  or  navy, 
401;  oppoaea  payment  of  legisla- 
ture by  Statea,  401;  oppoae*  ap- 
poiatmenta  by  Senate,  465;  oppoaea 
treaty  power  of  Senate,  468; 
moves  power  of  legialatun  over 
public  lands,  493;  auggeata  legia- 
lature may  call  convention  to 
amend  constitution,  494;  thinica 
ineligibility  of  memben  of  legia- 
latun to  officni  will  ht  evaded,  505; 
thinks  legialatun  should  judge 
privilsges  of  members,  611 ;  opposes 
oriirlnatiTii;  nvenue  in  Houae,  613; 
favors    Vice    President    for   pnai- 


dant  of  Sawta,  SS7t  oppam  trtat- 
lea  of  pesoa  with  majority  of  Son- 
ata, 680;  favora  impeaehmant 
trlala  by  SansK  586;  motion  that 
BO  State  be  d*|<rivad  ti  aqiml  vote 
in  Senata,  agreed  to,  676;  aeeonda 
motion  for  appotetaent  of  jndgea 
by  ezaeutiva,  170 1  thinka  aalanea 
of  jndgaa  may  bo  iaeraaaed,  277; 
aaeoada  motion  of  appointment  of 
jndgaa  by  aacative,  with  two- 
thirda  of  Saaata,  277,  278;  favon 
inferior  judieial  trlbuala,  279; 
favon  appoiatment  of  Jndgaa  by 
•neutive,  802;  favon  parmanant 
tenun  of  Jtidgea,  47S|  wonld  al- 
low iaenaaa  la  imi§mf  aalariea, 
474;  wonld  praaerva  >aiaa«  oor^pua, 
477;  thiaka  money  billa  may  origi- 
nate in  either  braneh  of  legialatun, 
216;  oppoaea  origmatiag  money 
Ulla  in  nrat  branen  of  legialatun, 
217;  favon  power  to  originate 
money  bUla  in  Saaata,  802,  404; 
oppoaea  proviaioB  for  money  billa, 
800;  favon  partleipatioB  of  Sea- 
ate  in  money  billa,  891 ;  objaets  to 
committee  to  anpeirlBtead  minnteo, 
22 ;  moves  conatdentio*  of  national 
onion,  27;  aoggaata  eonaideration 
of  national  goverament,  27;  *s- 
plaina  "federal,''  " aatioaal,''  "ao- 
preme,"  etc.,  88;  aaka  Delawan 
delegatea  not  to  withdraw,  30; 
urgea  national  oonsMerationa,  221 ; 
thinlu  mode  of  census  ahoold  not  be 
fixed,  231 ;  thinka  Sooth  will  inaiat 
on  slave  trade,  240;  movea  commit- 
ment of  ouestioa  of  alava  trade, 
446;  would  confine  alave  trade  t/« 
Carolinaa  and  Oeorgia,  407;  with- 
dnwa  motion,  408;  favon  direct 
taxation  by  npreaentatton.  241, 
242,  247;  nivon  fedeni  power  of 
police,  204;  objeeta  to  goanntoe- 
Ing  State  governmenta,  280;  shows 
aepantion  of  powen,  209;  thinko 
legialatun  ahoold  not  ntify,  307 
movea  ratifleatton  by  one  eonvrn- 
tion,  309;  wonld  atrike  ont  elauae 
nlaticg  to  direct  taxation,  317; 
favon  property  qualifleation  for 
office,  320;  opposes  disnualiflcatioa 
of  debtora,  331;  thinka  Philadel- 
phia or  New  York  may  be  mat  of 
government,  332;  favon  reetrirted 
fnnehiae,  362;  favon  reatrictive 
policy  towards  fonignen,  360; 
oppoaea  State  regulation  of  elec- 
ttona,  372;  thinks  aeat  of  govern- 
ment should  be  fixed,  381 ;  nn  obli- 
gations to  foreignen,  387;  inaista 
upon  rcvisionary  power,  400;  pro- 


poMt  abwhite  Mntiw  ( 
«wcnti»e,  407;  &fon 


INDEX 


>  OB  lawt  for 

— r"";ri. ""  •  •"»""  t»*  »■  ex- 

'••  *!?.  .♦11;  obJeeU  to  power 

emit  Mil*  of  credit,  418V  op- 

pow»  p«per  emiMioaa,  41S;  H,yon 

pmiahmeat      for      oonoterfeiting. 

lIlL"""!^  P?*^  *«  P«»'«l>  to' 
pirmeiM,  4IS|  favon  power  to  mip- 

preM  nbelUpn  witbont  tpplieatioii 

of  State  iMltktnre,  417;  prtpoeee 

eoMcU    oT  State,    4t8;    oppMM 

•naiptwtrj  hwa,  4W;  thinlu  treii- 

Britieh  deflaKioD  of  tnuon,  438- 
"f"  reaction.  484;  favor*  sen- 
««1  eoBtrflmtJoaa  of  State*  accord- 
»«  to  reiwaientatiaii,  488;  fkvora 
t«  OB  Mporta,  43»;  appiorea 
Pjw  to  tax  esporto  whh  eoBMat 
of  State.,  480,  tlSuta  ••  port^SJ 

Wile  jrf    attaiader,    440;    aioTea 

meat  to  fuUm  eagi^caMBte  of  oM 
foreramsat,  481 ;  ezplaiaa  treatiea 

out  aUitIa,  486;  doe*  Bot  with  too 
■*iiy  twatlee,  458;  ii.s{au  on  pay- 
w«t  of  debta,  466;  thinln  l^i- 
!•*«•  BUiT  not  tax  freemealhi. 
ported,  468;  tUaka  Statei  but 
w«ul«to  eoatraete.  478;  more*  foJ 
arataal  reeogBitioB  by  State*  of 
•«t«^  4W;  oPpoaM  BaVlcatfcm  act*. 
484;  aoTC*  IW  a«w  State*  be  ad- 
mitted    nadnr     eoBdltkn*,     487: 

♦"KIT  !^'*?ii  "^  ^*^  *y  t^'o^ 

2l!l?*  .T^<*S  Bot  to  be  cK«ted 
from  old  State*.  488;  tbiaka  State* 

*"«"*._'^**^'"^   <W;   make* 
motfoB  IB  fiiTor  of  Vermoat,  491; 
e*  forUddlBff  relMoo*  te«t. 


721 


•"J.  M4:  oppo*e*  dUertotaatloa 
•»to.t  army,  688;  tUaka  publi- 
sh *k?^"E!"?**"*  Impoilbl.. 
866;  tkiak*  &tat**  may  lay  dutle. 
OB  toaaaip.  870;  m»i,  liwwt  of- 
wm    may    aiak*    appoiatmrnta 

^wem,  674t  waato  all  Stat**  to 

»«»m*,  Robert,  PeaiL,  ,tt«rfa,  17. 
«»^*t^  Q*>rg.  WaahiBytoB  fo; 
Pf^Mwrt  of  eoBT«itiwri7;    •*e- 

tor*.  168. 
Nati«»l  goverBmeat  coa*id«red.  87.  28. 

dWtated,  488;  elaoae  afpcti  to, 
487;  »«MoB  to  reqvlr*  two-third* 
wrte,  loat.  878. 

^^2^*^,2^*  *°  «*>>ntioB.  r*. 

K...^o?'W;.^'-iKS;2d1S; 

„     **^'««rth^  amed  to,  408.        ^ 

Negatire  oa  law*,  plaa,  407. 

Wew  HMpahtae,  mored   to   eead   for 

2rass"«28"!*  '""'-^  '^^ 

^'T.*'****^,«o»wnmeBt,  480. 

North  Oaroiiaa,  repreeeatatioa  of,  S60. 

°*"'«^'?''^-^**"*'  ««»wnmeat, 

2i'tSS^*i£?i.*°  -"p^  ~»- 

wltatloB.    aflfarmatioB     permittwi. 


W;  thlak*  eoatiguon*  itatec  m» 
P*"^  2J»«*»tBtioB.  498;  favora 
haTiw  State  chooa*  mode  of  raU- 
"«*»»".   <W;   think*  eoutKutioB 

S:sL*~"j',""'«'«2?  to'iilie      f^,rs^.*!.*j;?^  *"'  «- 

■wther  coBrtitntioB.  SOO;  oa  com- 
mittw  oB  postpoaed  meamre*,  802; 

to  Talldity  of  acta  of  State*,  5037 
™»w«  federal  baakr^ttey  Uw*, 
504;  OB  committee  ob  *tyle.  838; 

ttota  State*  may  ]»  export  du- 

dfcect  tazatkm  proriakm,  -MO;  pi«. 
po*«*  nupMisioB  fron  oflfee  of  per- 
•OB*  imp*aeh*d.  561;  would  Tel 
flae  law  of  aatioa*,  863;  thiak* 
poww  to  create  oaiTertf  ^  unai 


fore  eonyictioa,  471. 
P»rdoBiiig  power,  Preaideat  to   hare, 
over  treawn  ea***.  672. 

^   oTSliri,?*^  *•  Smm.C 
^^**2»i '[•"««.  N.  J.,  attead*,  17; 

tag  to  rule  of  nOnf  in  li«i*U- 
tuw^  »;  <qipo***  pwrnortionarrep- 
mmtatioB  ia  Wfiature,  sT; 
■wwiqwrtioB  of  repre*eBtatioa 
M  poatpraed,  83;  propoee*  plaa. 
101;  nqtporto  hi*  pWriW:  aeeT 


Itt 


INDEX 


onds  motion  to  mtgt  New  Hunp- 
■hire  to  send  drtagatca,  190;  on 
conunittse  on  repreaentation  in 
Sennto,  206;  tliinlu  annU  8UtM 
hav*  been  treated  Iwdly,  211;  in- 
sists on  equal  vote  of  States  in 
Senate,  221:  ooposes  numbers  and 
wealth  as  baaia  of  repraseatatioa, 
226;  favors  adjournomit,  262; 
proposes  election  of  executive  bf 
electors,  288. 

Peace,  power  of,  discussed,  410. 

Pennsylvania,  opposes  two  braacbss  of 
national  legislature,  31. 

Pensioners,     duqualiflcation     rejected, 

"1  ,       .. 

Pierce,  WiUiaa,  Oa.,  attends,  31; 
favors  election  of  one  branch  of 
legidature  by  the  people,  M;  move* 
that  wages  of  members  of  legisla- 
ture be  paid  from  national  treas- 
ury, 93;  passed,  03;  moves  three 
years  for  SenaU  term,  90;  thlnlcs 
State  distinctions  must  bs  sacri- 
flced,  187.  .      .. 

Pinclcney,  Charles,  S.  C,  attends,  17; 
on  powers  of  executive,  89;  pro- 
poses seven  years'  term  for  execu- 
tive, 40;  favorit  single  executive, 
37,  48;  thinks  executive  may  con- 
sult heads  of  departments  in  re- 
visionary  power,  08;  favors  elec- 
tion of  executive  bj  legislature, 
208;  thinks  executive  should  not  be 
impeachable,  290,  291 ;  thinks  pow- 
ers of  executive  should  be  circum- 
scribed, 293;  proposes  executive 
be  ineligible  fiir  oontivnow  re- 
election, 321;  opposes  executive 
council,  423;  moves  President  be 
elected  by  majority  vote,  402; 
thinks  Senate  will  elect  President, 
610;  objects  to  eventual  election 
of  President  by  Senate,  514 ;  seconds 
motion  that  two-thirds  of  Senate 
be  presttit  when  voting  for  Presi- 
dent, 6i3;  moves  to  strike  out 
nomination  to  Senate  by  State 
legislatures,  35;  objects  to  powers 
of  national  i^slatore  to  eases 
wherp  Stete  legislatures  are  in- 
competent, 36;  propoees  first 
branch  of  national  legislature  be 
elected  by  State  legisUturea,  02; 
wants  proportional  repressstation 
In  Bvnste,  74;  moves  negative  of 
national  legislature  on  State  laws. 
76;  move*  States  be  divided  into 
classes  as  basis  for  representation, 
79;  seconds  motion  for  ratio  of 
representation  to  be  in  proportion 
to  all  free  inhabitants  and  three- 
fifths  other*,  88;  passed,  88; 
moves  elimination  of  clause  pro- 


hibiting reeleetioa  into  flrst  brsikch 
for  number  of  years,  94 ;  agrca^  to, 
94;  opposes  electioM  to  legiriatitfe 
by  SUte  legislatures,  142;  favor* 
four  years  for  Senate,  166;  oppoaea 
equal  votes  in  Senate,  201 ;  thinks 
numbers  best  basis  for  representa- 
tion, 216;  thinks  Congress  has  no 
right  to  admit  new  SUtes,  216; 
favors  equality  of  bladu  in  repre- 
ssntation,  24A;  pn^toaes  propor- 
tional repreaentatiod  in  Senate, 
263 ;  favors  osgative  on  State  laws 
by  l^ialatnra,  266;  seeond*  motion 
of  qualifleationa  for  legislature, 
327;  movea  inereai*  ia  repraaa- 
tetion  of  South  CandiM,  368;  da- 
fends  aUve  representation,  861; 
approves  fourteen  vears'  citixan- 
ahlp  for  mambar*  <n  S«iate,  367; 
thinks  States  should  name  time  of 
elections  to  Iwislatnre,  (71 ;  tUnk* 
property  quMiHeation  i>r  lagiala- 
ture  should  be  fixed,  St 3;  oppaaea 
iaaligibility  of  mambera  of  legisla- 
ture to  offleea,  396,  M»,  604,  606; 
moves  postponement  at  question  of 
eligibili'^  of  members  of  legisla- 
ture, 401;  opposes  war  poww  for 
legislature,  418;  favors  power  in 
Senate,  418;  rejected,  410;  movea 
power  to  fix  aaat  of  government, 
estoblish  seminaries,  diartars,  pat- 
anta,  copyrighta,  Invantiona,  420; 
payment  of  debt,  public  credit,  let- 
tera  of  mark,  stages.  421;  favors 
power    over    militia,   426;    moves 

Sswer  in  laglaiatva  to  negative 
Ute  Uwa,  466;  moves  legisla- 
ture judge  privilegaa  of  membera, 
611;  oppoaea  Senate  aa  eourt  of 
impeachment,  636;  oppoaas  three- 
fourtha  vote  to  set  adds  Presidant's 
negative,  666;  oppossa  appoint- 
mmt  of  Treasurer  by  legislature, 
662;  would  increase  repreaanta- 
tion  of  North  Carolina,  668;  op- 
paaea anMintmant  of  judiciary  by 
legiriature,  58;  oppoaaa  reriaioBary 
power  in  judiciary,  68;  moves 
judgea  of  national  judfeiary  be  ap- 
pointed by  leglalatura.  97;  witn- 
drawn,  97 ;  wishes  judgsa  appointed 
by  Senate,  301 ;  oppoaas  judiciary 
in  revisionary  powar,  406;  to  re- 
quire opinions  of  judgea,  to  pra- 
aarve  writ  of  Vaieoa  oorpiM,  427; 
would  preserve  kafteoa  oorpiM, 
477;  insists  on  jury  trial  in 
civil  cases,  572;  thinks  originating 
money  bills  no  coneesaion,  217; 
oppoaea  money  bills  in  first  branch 
of  legislature,  383 ;  insists  on  slave 
trade,  443;   defends  slavery,  444; 


INDEX 


723 


mj»  Sooth  Carolina  iniitU  oa 
■lave  trade,  448;  askii  (or  alav<i 
trade  till  1808,  467;  moves  fugi- 
tive alavea  be  delivered  up,  481 ;  on 
committee  oa  ndea,  18 ;  move*  com- 
mittee to  MMriBtend  minute*,  21 ; 
iatrodueee  draft  of  govemmeat, 
20;  ask*  If  State  goremments  art.- 
to  be  abolished,  27 ;  upholds  powers 
of  convention,  109;  speech,  IS5; 
moves  commitment  of  qualifloations 
for  ofllce,  328;  opposes  disqualifi- 
cations of  debtors,  331;  thinks 
capital  may  be  in  large  town,  332; 
thinks  new  aaturaliiation  laws 
necessary,  387;  favors  appoint- 
ment of  Treasurer  by  joint  ballot. 
415;  favors  power  to  suppress  re- 
bellion without  application  of 
State  l^slature,  417;  favors  as- 
sumption of  State  debts,  421; 
proposes  clause  for  liberty  of  the 
pre**,  4S7,  66S;  moves  power  to 
establish  offices,  430;  moves  prohi- 
bition of  acceptancf  of  presents 
from  foreign  government*,  4SS; 
thinks  State  executive*  ought  to 
be  appointed  by  general  govern- 
ment, 4S7 ;  moves  to  establish  laws 
of  bankruptcies,  482;  moves  regu- 
lation of  comniprcp,  foreign  and 
domeetie,  by  two-thirds  vote,  483; 
favors  power  to  pass  navigation 
acts,  483;  move*  religious  tests  be 
forbidden,  405;  think*  constitu- 
tion need  not  have  approval  of  Con- 
gress, 4M;  would  exclude  Senate 
from  appointing  power,  629;  move* 
an  address  to  people,  644;  pro- 
posss  university,  SM;  oppose*  pro- 
vision against  array,  IMS;  favors 
oeeasioBal  pnbiieatiua  of  ezpendi- 
turet,  0971  oppoaes  seeond  conven- 
tion, 6?>;  Mm  of,  pressBted  to 
eonventioa,  Ibj  »,  1787;  696; 
letter*  fro*,  to  John  Qnincy 
Adams,  relating  to  the  Pinckney 
plan,  698;  text  of  plan  submitted 
Dy,  to  John  Quincy  Adams,  600; 
note  of  James  Madiaon,  on  plan  of, 
606. 
Pinckney,  Charles  Cotesworth,  S.  C. 
attenda,  17;  thinks  elections  to 
national  legtslatnre  by  the  people 
impaeticable,  M;  oppose*  ineligi- 
bility of  members  of  flrst  branch 
at  Iwlslature,  161;  propose*  Ren- 
ate  have  no  salary.  171:  thinks 
Senate  should  l«  paid  by  States, 
173;  proposes  compromise  on  vote 
in  Senate,  201:  favor*  reduction 
of  representation  of  New  Hamp- 
shire, 226;  wishes  incrMkse  in  r^- 
rssentation    of    southern    States, 


227;  mows  {MNMe  in  rs^sssnta- 
tion  of  Oaorgia,  828;  moves  in- 
creaae  in  rspresentatimi  of  South 
Carolina,  228,  368;  movea  ten 
years'  dtisenship  for  members  of 
Senate,  S70;  thinks  salaries  of 
judffs*  ssaT  be  changed.  474; 
thinks  proTlaion  for  jmr  tvtala  us- 
aaesasary,  673;  thinks  Senate  may 
originate  money  bills,  08;  thinks 
originating  money  bills  in  first 
faruich  no  coneeaAon,  219;  insist* 
blacks  snould  count  equally  with 
white*,  238 ;  iniista  on  sseurity  for 
slave*,  311;  admita  alav*  trade  is 
price  of  navigation  laws,  468; 
wishes  provision  in  favor  of  prop- 
erty in  slaves,  481;  doubts  powers 
of  convention,  28;  moves  to  con- 
sider mors  effective  government, 
28 ;  favors  retentloB  of  State  power, 
143;  favors  tazatkm  by  represenU- 
tion,  241;  thinks  rule  of  wealth 
should  be  fixed,  243;  favors  census 
in  six  yeara,  246;  opposes  adjourn- 
BMRt,  261;  moves  qualifldations 
for  otBce,  328;  on  grand  commit- 
tee on  assumption  of  State  debts, 
423;  favors  army,  424;  favors 
power  over  militia,  428,  463;  on 
committee  on  navigation  acts,  448 ; 
approves  forbidding  religioas  test, 
496;  annonoces  support  of  eonsti- 
tution,  682. 

Ptekney  plan,  referred,  27;  outline, 
26 n.;  referred  to  ooamittee  <rf  de- 
taU,  318,  337. 

Piracies  and  felonies,  law  and  punish- 
ment debated,  'il6;  punishment 
struck  out,  416,  663;  agrssd  to, 
416,  417;  power  to  define,  416. 

Ports  of  ntry.  State  oooasat  to.  pro- 
posed, 470;   regulation  of,  601. 

Post  offiees,  power  agreed  to,  413. 

Pray«a  in  oonveatioB  propossd,  181. 

PrsamUa  agreed  to,  347. 

Presents    from    foreign    govemmaita 
prohibited,  486. 

Privileges,  equal,  for  eitiMna  <rf  States, 
clause  agreed  to,  481. 

Property  qualifloatiaB  tm  oflec,  agreed 
to,  8M. 

Public  acta  of  one  State  valid  ia 
another,  clause  agreed  to,  604. 

Public  debt,  power  to  regulate,  421. 

Quorum,  less  than  a  majority  proposed, 
376;  number,  rejected,  378;  con- 
sidered. 407 ;  of  Senate,  two-thirds 
rejected,  634. 

Bandolph,  Edmund.  Va..  attenda.  17; 
opMiins  speech,  22;  opposes  single 
sxeentfve,  38,  48 ;  opposed  to  exeou- 


724 


INDEX 


tire  being  appointed  hy  Mtcutive* 
of  SUtcs,  80;  oppow*  eligibility  of 
ezecntiTe  for  lecond  term,  284) 
lecondi  motion  rMtrleting  Pre«i- 
dent's  power  of  appointmeBt,  464; 
object*  to  mode  of  deetion  of  Preii- 
dent,  509;  thinks  erentual  election 
of  President  should  b*  in  legisla- 
ture, 611;  thinks  President  should 
not  have  pardoning  power  over 
treason,  S71;  favors  snail  Senate, 
S4 ;  will  not  give  indefinite  powers 
to    national  legislatttTe,    36;    ap- 

S roves  seven  years'  for  Senate  term, 
6 ;  favors  two  years  for  service  in 
first  branch  of  legislature,  144 ;  op- 

foses  State  compensation  for  legis- 
ature,  147;  suggests  rotation  in 
Secate,  165;  favors  commitment  of 
question  of  representation,  204, 
225;  on  committee  on  repreaenta- 
tion,  215;  wishes  legislature  to  ar- 
range basis  of  representation,  243 ; 
moves  reconaideration  of  question 
of  representation,  248;  opposes 
police  power  of  legislature,  265; 
opposes  fixing  time  for  meeting  of 
legiaUture,  349;  thinks  vacancies 
in  Seaate  may  be  filled  by  execu- 
tive, 363;  moves  to  postpone  ques- 
tion of  vote  in  Senate,  364,  366; 
thinks  vote  in  Senate  should  be 
poetpoaad,  365;  oppoaes  fourteen 
years'  eitiaenship  tor  Senate,  368; 
bgrees  ta  nine  years'  eitixenship 
for  Senate,  370;  moves  legislature 
compel  attendance,  378;  approves 
expulsion  of  members  of  legisla- 
ture, 378 ;  thinks  one  member  may 
call  for  yea  and  nays,  379;  pro- 
poses foar  years'  eitixenship  for 
first  brameh  of  legislatore,  3M; 
agrees  to  allow  eli|i^billty  of  mem- 
bers of  legislature  to  army  or 
navy,  401;  favors  ineligibili^  of 
members  of  legislature  to  offlees, 
SOS;  doubts  if  legislature  shouM 
judge  privileges  of  members,  611; 
opposes  Vice  President  for  presi- 
dent of  Senate,  627 ;  would  exclude 
Senate  from  pardoning  power, 
571:  moves  that  jurisdiction  of 
national  jndieiary  should  extend 
to  case*  involving  revenue  and  im- 
peachment, 97;  agreed  to,  97; 
favors  appointment  of  judge*  by 
SenaU.  276;  favor*  inferior  judi- 
cial tribunals,  270 :  favors  appoint- 
ment of  judge*  by  executive  with 
Senate,  301;  favor*  fixed  compen- 
sation for  jrdges,  474;  moves  to 
reconsider  question  of  money  bill*, 
363;   favors  money  bill*  in   flr*t 


branch  of  legialatnre,  383;  oppose* 
amendment  of  money  bill*  by  Sen- 
ate, 388;  in*i*t*  on  restricting 
money  bill*  to  flr*t  branch  of  legis- 
lature, 393;  move*  to  extend  nega- 
tive to  resolutioM,  409;  move*  to 
con*ider  clause  iM  national  govern- 
ment, 27,  28;  oppoae*  consent  of 
legislature  to  m  nacessanr  to 
amend  constitution,  00;  considera- 
tion po*tpon*d,  90;  oppoaes  rrauir- 
iag  oaths  from  memoer*  of  State 
govemmenta  to  observe  constitu- 
tion, 90;  apbolda  national  plan, 
109:  accepts  supreme  government 
inatead  of  national,  132;  proposes 
■enaon  on  4th  of  July,  182;  think* 
new  State*  should  not  bo  discrim- 
inated against,  213;  urges  com- 
promise, 216;  opposes  reduction  of 
representation  of  Kew  Hampahire, 
228;  move*  censu*  aa  liaM*  for 
repre*entation,  230;  favor*  cennis, 
233;  explain*  adjournment  pro- 
posal, 262 ;  favors  guarantee  of  re- 
publican constitution,  280;  moves 
that  States  must  have  republican 
government,  281;  opposes  ratifi- 
cation by  legislature*,  806;  de- 
fines treason,  413;  move*  power  to 
define  piraeiea,  etc.,  416;  favor* 
power  to  puni*h  piraeiea,  416; 
favor*  Britiah  definition  of  trea- 
*on,  432;  favors  commitment  of 
question  of  slave  trad*.  447 ;  think* 
provision  to  fulfill  mgagementa  of 
old  government  necessary,  450; 
favors  national  control  of  militia, 
453;  move*  provi*ion  for  State 
debt*,  460;  move*  validity  of 
debt*,  466;  move*  mutual  accept- 
ance of  State*  of  public  act*, 
482;  on  committee  on  mutual  rec- 
ognition of  publia  acta  by  State*, 
483;  find*  odiona  features  in  con- 
stitution, 486;  proposes  nine 
State*  may  ratify  con*titution, 
495;  think*  State  convention* 
should  ammd  constitution,  500; 
thinka  powera  too  loasriy  defined, 
503;  wants  second  conventitm.  541, 
544,  675;  state*  objection*  to  eonati- 
tution,  543;  moves  to  strike  out 
*ervitude^  659;  favor*  power  to 
grant  charter*  of  incorporation, 
564;  regard*  armie*  a*  dangerou* 
in  time  of  peace,  666;  etatea  why 
he  will  not  sign  oonatitution,  680, 
681 :  doe«  not  *ign,  583;  extract  of 
letter  from  Jame*  Madiaon,  690. 
Batifying  constitution  by  conventions, 
di*cu(*ed,  69,  460;  by  plurality  of 
State*,    propo*ed,    60;     by    Bin* 


wm 


wmmm 


INDEX 


725 


StatM,  propoMd,  60:  etenic  poit- 
poacd,  eO;  by  >iBa  Stetct  agrMd 
to,  409;  bj  IvgUUture,  rtjcctcd, 
300;  br  ooBvwtioiit  agnad  to,  809 ; 
nod*  dcfastwi.  S04,  4M,  6M;  node 
•greed  to,  600;  by  OMwiatlaM,  400. 
BMd,  Oeorge.  Del.,  attend^  17;  would 
give  azMntiTe  abaolnte  mgitlTe, 
3W;  ftofomt  oMtlag  TOt*  for 
PimUmt  i*  ptMidwt  of  Smate, 
468;  OBDcaad  to  aeparate  proriaion 
for  MabatfaB  of  PrMMaiK,  610; 
thinlM  HMdl  Statca  aiay  hMra  no 
▼Ota  far  Praaidant,  68o;  aoraa 
poatf— It  of  qnaatkm  of  rapra- 
acBtatkm,  60;  motion  agiaad  to, 
81;  favora  fair  rtpraaaatattan  in 
Scaate,  161;  propoaea  lifa  term 
for  Saaatora,  166;  propoaaa  nine 
yeara  for  Saaata,  167;  oa  eom- 
mittca  on  rapicaentatkm,  8S0;  fa> 
yam  liwraaaa  in  repreaeatation, 
230;  woald  not  ahaekla  lagialature, 
235;  oppoaea  aeren  yeara'  rcaidence 
in  State  for  maaabera  of  lagialature, 
366;  tbiaka  oioacy  billa  nay  origi- 
nate in  Seaate,  366;  objecta  to 
judiciary  power  ezteading  to 
equity,  478;  movea  to  ooatider 
more  effeetire  goTemment,  28; 
wlabea  itrong  national  gorem- 
ment,  66;  mipoaea  guaraateeing 
territoiT  to  Statea,  80;  wiabea  to 
eztingniab  State  attaehmeata,  160; 
diaenaata  ri^ita  of  Stataa,  184; 
wiahea  repreaeatation  of  Delaware 
ineraaaed,  226;  oppoaea  taxation 
by  repreaentation,  247;  oppoaea 
paper  money,  414;  favora  appoint- 
ment of  Treaaurer  by  exeentire, 
416;  wtahea  executivea  of  Statea  to 
appoint  oiBeera  of  militia,  426; 
would  combine  alare  trade  and 
tax  on  exporta,  447 ;  propoaea  no  di- 
rect tmaa,  666;  on  cooHBlttee  on 
impoata,  470. 

Rebellion  in  State,  powar  to  anbdue, 
diaeuaaed,  417;  agreed  to,  418;  re- 
jected, 418. 

Seligioua  teat,  428;  forbMden,  405. 

Rapieaeutation,  national,  proportional, 
conaidered.  30,  80,  84;  poatponed, 
81;  psaaed,  88;  Umltatioa  of,  pro- 
poiad.  486. 

RepraaentatiTaa,  Honaa  of.  Bee  Legiala- 
tnre.  House  of  RapreaentatiTca. 

RepuUicaa  ooaatitutian,  gnaraatee  of, 
debated,  280. 

RapuMieaa  gowmmeBt  for  Stataa, 
claaie  poatponed,  68. 

Bevenne  billa,  clanie  agraad  to,  687. 

Serlaion  of  acta,  prapoaad  bj  anrattva 
aad  jndidary,  406. 


Rba«a  Ultmi,  Mlar  fnii,  SO; 

■airtatisM    ol.    568;    latter    from 
marehanta,     trartaawien,     etc.,     of 
Proytdaaaa,   to  chalrmaa   of   eon- 
TWtiaa.  May  11,  1787,  696. 
Balaa  for  eoaveatioa,  18;  reported,  18; 

added  to,  21. 
Bntiadfla.   John,   S.    C.   attenda.    17; 
aaoooda     noaiiBatiaa     of     Oeorge 
WaaUagton  for  praaidmt  of  con- 
vaatiaa,   17;   favora  aingla  exeeu- 
tiva,  87;  iiigiaalf  elect irn  of  axecu- 
tiva  by  Senate,  41;   morea  tingle 
•xaeotive,  48;    inaiata  oa  election 
of    aMeutire    br    alaetMra,    287; 
wiahea  Praaidaat  elaetad  by  ballot, 
461;    waate  Praaideat  alaetad  by 
lagialatare,    614;    movaa    eveatual 
aleetioB   of    Pieaidaat    limited   to 
thirteen  eaadtdatea,  617;  movca  to 
limit  Preaident'a  awilnaMaita.  671; 
objaeta  to  pwaata  of  national  lagia- 
lature a^ara  Slate  lagialaturea  are 
iaeoaipetaat,  86;  faTora  election  to 
flrat  branch  of  aatioaal  lagialature 
liy   State  lagidatarca,  62;   morea 
Stetea  be  ttridad  iato  elaaaea  aa 
baaia  for  repriieatatlon,   79;    fa- 
▼ora  wealth  aa  baaia  of  repreeenta- 
tioB  in  flrat  braadi,  84;  movea  ad- 
ditioa  of  quotaa  of  eoatribution  to 
motioa  relatiag  to  repreaentation, 
88;  peatpoaed,  88;  awTea  mambera 
of  flrit  branch  be  alaetad  every  two 
yeara,  91;  movaa  Seaate  arwrnbera 
serre  without  aalary,  06;  rejected, 
06;   favors  election  to  legislature 
by  State  legialatursa.  148;  favors 
iadigiUlity   of   mavbcra  of   first 
braaeh  of  lagialatu-.«  to  oOeea,  152 ; 
movea  to  eoaalder  rule  of  aufTrage 
in  lagialatwe,  174;  oa  cimniittee 
OB  raprilSBtatiea  ia  Seaate,  206; 
favors  property  mmliileatfam    for 
repreasatattoB,   21S;    asovaa   poat- 
poasmcat  of  queation  of  ratio  of 
reprsasatatioa,  294;  oa  committee 
oa  reprsantatioa,  916,  826;  awvea 
rednetioa  in  renrssaatetioa  of  New 
Hampahita,  296;   oppoaes  iaereasa 
in  repreaaBtatioa,  280;   insists  on 
wealth  aa  faaafa  of  rapreantetion, 
836;     movea    rceaaaideration     of 
morey   billa   and   equal    votes    in 
Senate,  262;  waate  powara  of  legis- 
lature deAaed,  960;  wlriiee  savaa 
▼ears'  raaidsBea  ia  Stete  for  mem- 
bers of  legialatura,  8M;  propoaea 
tliree  yeara'  iahaUtaaej  for  bmm- 
bara   of    la^datne,    867;    (avora 
long  tana  of  citlaaaakip  for  Sen- 
ate, 870:  thiaka  Stetaa  moat  name 
tima  of  dactioa  to  leg*alatare,  871 ; 


mmmmmm. 


mm 


mmmmm 


m 


INDEX 


tbinki  property  qualiiloktioii*  for 
legitlaturp  ihould  bt  ftnd,  373; 
moTM  quallllcatioM  for  IcgitUturt 
to  be  the  Mime  ■■  for  State  legU- 
latum,  375;  on  ioumalaof  iMiala- 
ture,  380;  thinke  SenaU  •honM 
participate  in  money  Mill,  3M; 
■eeondt  motion  to  poetpone  qiiee- 
tk>n  of  money  bllla,  404;  wiilMt 
one  eapreme  court,  67 1  oppoaea  in- 
ferior trtbonala  in  natimwl  ju- 
diciary, 00;  oppoaea  rerlaionary 
power  for  judgea,  800;  objeeti  to 
power  of  removal  of  Indgaa,  473; 
oppoaea  aending  f6r  dMegatea  from 
New  Hampahire,  ISO;  oppoaea  ad- 
journment, 2M;  think*  proTition 
againat  d<nneatie  Tiolence  unnecea- 
aary,  281;  on  committee  of  detail, 
318;  deliTer*  report ^f  committee 
of  detail,  337;  oppoaea  franchiae 
limited  to  freeholdera,  354;  thinki 
foreignera  ihould  not  hold  offlce, 
386;  favora  meaanra  to  guard 
fundi,  481 ;  morea  committee  to 
consider  Stat*  debta,  481;  moTes 
auumption  of  State  debts,  421; 
raovea  longer  seaaiona  of  eonven- 
tion,  423;  oppoaea  tax  on  impor- 
tation of  alavea,  442;  inaiata  on 
ilaTe  trade,  440;  introdueea  addi- 
tions to  report,  448;  morea  con- 
stitution be  supreme  law,  455;  op- 
poses negatlTe  on  State  laws,  457; 
thinka  prorision  for  controversiea 
between  Statea  unnecessary,  450; 
would  prohibit  retrospectire  laws, 
470;  would  preaerre  habtaa  corpat, 
477 ;  on  committee  to  consideT  mu- 
tual recofrnition  of  public  acts  by 
States,  483 ;  faTors  navigation  acta, 
480;  says  States  can  not  be  divided 
without  their  consent,  400;  pro- 
poses bankruptcy  laws,  602;  moves 
treaties  shall  require  two-thirdn  of 
whole  Senate,  533;  oppoaea  power 
to  amend  clause  relating  to  slav- 
ery, 640 ;  thinks  Congreaa  need  not 
approve  constitution,  643;  pro- 
poses snapenaion  from  oAce  of  per- 
sona impeached,  541 ;  movea  Treas- 
urer be  appointed  by  executive, 
502 ;  oppoaea  addreaa  to  the  people, 
607. 

Seat  of  government,  proriaion  for,  dis- 
cussed, 332;  jurisdiction  over,  420, 
512;    clause  agreed  to,  513. 

Senate.    See  Legislature,  Senate. 

Sherman,  Roger,  Conn.,  attenda,  27; 
thinka  executive  must  carry  out 
will  of  legislature,  38 ;  favora  elec- 
tion   of   executive  by   legialature, 


40,  267;  favors  three  ysara'  term 
for  exaeutivs,  40;  thinks  national 
legialatura  should  remove  exeeutiva 
at  pleaaore,  46;  propose*  executive 
conaeil,  60|  aaeonaa  motion  for 
eligibility  of  exeentive  (or  second 
term,  870;  opposaa  tenure  during 
good  bskavior  for  aiaeutivs,  271; 
oblecta  to  aiactfam  of  President  by 
ballot,  461)  objeeta  to  President'a 
power  of  appoiatmeat,  464;  favora 
eventual  election  of  Praaident  from 
seven  Candida  tea.  617;  thinks 
grsater  powers  for  Congress  neces- 
sary, 88;  opposes  eleetHW  to  flrat 
branch  of  legislature  by  people,  31 ; 
favors  elsetlon  of  one  member  of 
Senate  by  sach  State  legislature, 
35;  seconds  motion  to  elect  Senate 
by  State  legisUturea,  69;  thinka 
proportion  of  suffrage  in  first 
nranch  should  be  baaed  on  free  in- 
habitaata,  84;  movea  each  State 
ahould  have  one  vote  in  second 
branch,  88;  rejected,  8i);  oppose* 
requiring  oath*  from  member*  of 
State  govemmente  to  obaerve  con- 
atitutioa,  90;  movea  membera  of 
first  branch  be  alaeted  annually. 
91;  approvea  Ave  yeara  for  Senate 
term,  96;  favora  aingle  legialative 
aaaembly,  136;  prefara  election  to 
legislature  by  Stete  legislatures, 
143;  aceepto  biennial  elections  to 
flrat  branch  of  legialature,  146; 
favors  State  compensation  for  legis- 
lature, 147 ;  opposes  ineligibility  of 
members  of  flrat  branch  of  legis- 
lature to  ofBeea,  151,  153;  seconds 
motion  for  six  years  for  Senators, 
165;  opposes  seven  yeara  for  Sena- 
tors, 106;  favora  frequent  elec- 
tiona,  168;  thinka  Statea  have 
equal  righte,  180;  thinka  Congreaa 
need*  more  power,  196;  favora  com- 
mitmrat  of  queatlon  of  repreaenta- 
tion  in  Senate,  808;  favora  equal 
vote  in  Sanato,  220;  opposes  ratio 
of  repreaentatioa,  223;  on  commit- 
tee on  repreaentation,  226;  oppoaea 
increaa*  in  representation,  889; 
would  not  shackle  legisUture,  231 ; 
favora  nnmbera  aa  bnaia  of  repre- 
aentatioa, 236;  favors  repreaeata- 
tk»  pnmosed,  2301  thiuks  legis- 
lature aaonld  flx  representatfon, 
847;  iaaists  on  equal  vote  in  Sen- 
ate, 264;  thinks  legislaturv  will 
require  quotas  frotn  States,  869; 
wishes  powers  of  legislature  de- 
Saed,  264;  thinks  tfane  for  mee<^iag 
of  legislature  ought  to  be  flasd, 
849;  wishes  members  of  legislature 


INDEX 


727 


to  b*  iahaUtaatt,  SMi  want  to 
ilalt  nprMMtetkm,   8W;    think* 
Iwblatur*  OMjr  ragulate  tlcetioiM, 
art;  tbinka  yaaa  aad  aaya  oaaae**- 
mrj,  370;  oa  Jouraali  of  te^la- 
tare,  380,  S81;  tavon  iaollglButj 
of  Bwmbtra  of  toficlature  to  oMom, 
am,  thiaks  aatioB  aad  SUto  tu^j 
aav  aMmbm  of  IcRltlatare,  408; 
lUaks  ■omban  of  IwUtoturc  la- 
oliClbla   to  oOeM   wlSi   UmtwumI 
■afarioa,  SOS;   thiaka  wkea   logis- 
latnra  votM  for  PrMidant  H  ■hovid 
vote  bj  State*.  SIS;  favora  taelai- 
iw  Seaata  ia  tnatT  aukiag  power, 
SM;   mo«fa  treatiea  reqaira   aw- 
Jority  of  whole  Seaate,  SS4;   op- 
poae*  reeoaaidaratioa  of  repreeenta- 
tkm,  U9f  moTca  aawadaiaata  bgr 
loBUlatnre propoaed  to  Stataa,  639; 
thiaka  Coofreaa  haa  ao  power  orer 
preia,   SSS;    Mtpoee*   laferior   trl- 
Doaala  ia  aatioaal  jodieiafy,  •!> 
wlibea  power  to  reauia  with  State 
■oTenuaenta.     63;     oMifea     that 
Jnd|ea   of   aatiowtl    Jodieiary    be 
appoiated  by  legiaktiir*,  »7;  with- 
drawn. VI ;  iaeiite  oa  appuiataent  of 
Jodgea  by  Seaata,  278;  laTora  ap- 
poiataieBt  of  Jndfea  by  Senate^  276 ; 
wlahe*  SUte  tribaa^a  to  be  need 
wh«*  poeaiirie,  «7»;  favora  power  of 
remoTal  of  jndaea,  473;  aMnea*  to 
eztead    jodMal    powers    to    laad 
caces,  476;   appellate  jariadietioa 
of  supreaae  eoart,   476;    trial   by 
jury,  477;    thiaka  sopreaM  court 
ahooM    Bot   try    Preeident,    536; 
morea  poatpooMMat  of  qneation  of 
moaey  Ulla,  IH;   wiahea  to  eoa- 
eider  moaey  bills  aad  Tote  ia  Sea- 
ate  together,  882;  fkvors  origiBat- 
iaa  moaer  btU*  ia   House,   813; 
defends  slave  •messatatkm,   389, 
361 ;  would  permit  slave  trade,  443, 
446;     objeets    to    use    of     word 
"•laves,"  468;   oppose*  delivering 
up  of  fofitive  slave*.  481 ;  oppoae* 
negatlva  of  executive  on  law*.  82; 
power   of   !a>i*lature  to  negativp 
State  lawb,  76;  oppoae*  neeative  on 
State  tewa  by  legidatate,  268,  266 ; 
favor*   nnitnal   negative   by  both 


taraache*  of  legialatare,  ^ 

poae*  negative  oa  law*  for  Jodgea, 

407;  thinks  asgative  oa  State  law* 


op- 


_. ,.     486;      favor*     two- 

thW*  vote  to  overrule  Preddent's 
negative,  884;  oppoae*  power  of 
direct  taxation,  864!  vUrica  ez- 
porto  ahould  aot  be  (aMd.  418; 
ovpoaed  to  tax  on  e^Mrta,  436; 
obJ*ete  to  taxing  ■*■  aa  foputtj. 


M8;  say*  tax  m  alav**  not  a  dia- 
coaragameat  to  importetioa,  469; 
■lovea  power  to  tax  export*  with 
ooBseat  of  Stetea.  479;  would  leave 
power  to  tax  iaporto  with  leg!*- 
ture,  479;  oppoae*  ratitcattoa  by 
coBvaationa,   60;    thiaka  eoaatitu- 
ttoa  eaa  be  ratifled  by  Stete  legia- 
lature*.  89;  favor*  prayera  ia  ooa- 
veatioa.  188;  would  aot  diaerimi- 
■^   "fkiMt    We*t.    888;    thiak* 
United  Stete*  under  no  obligation* 
to  foreigner*.  8a6i  objeete  to  aa- 
poiataMat  of  Trtaanrer  by  Joint 
ballot.  418;  favor*  appoiatlMat  of 
Treaawar  ij  legidatur*.  868;  t* 
authorise    legielature    to    asanma 
State  debt*,  482;  oa  grand  com- 
aiitta*    oa    aa*«mptioB    of    State 
2*ta,    483;    oppoaa*    aaawnption 
Stat*  debte,  436;  move*  paymi^t  of 
old  debte,  467;  think*  Stet4  ahould 
control    mUitia,    488,    486,    481; 
movea  uniformity  for  miUtia,  488; 
OBMM*  Stete  appointment  of  lower 
nMlitia  oAeer*.  484;  favora  Stete 
powCT   over  tieaaon,   438;    movea 
S*neral    eoatribotioM    of    Stete* 
•««[ding  to  NpiMMiteUon,  436; 
think*  provl*ion  for  State  eoatro- 
veraiea  uaaeoeesary,  460;  on  com- 
mittaa  oa  impoata,  470;  proposes 
regulatlo.  of  commaree,  47« ,  movea 
^«hibltion  of  paper  money,  478; 
thinks  Stetsa  may  lay  embargoea, 
479;  favors  navigatkm  aeta,  484; 
Ijr5«  •'IwiHty  oTnew  Stetaa,  487 ; 
thinks  a  Stete  eaa  net  be  dlamen- 
bered,  488;   movea  admisaioa  and 
formation  of  new  States,  400;  on 
elaima  to  Western  eonntry,  498: 
thiak*  religioiia  teat  v^iimuT', 
498;  thiaka  tea  Stetea  may  nti^ 
eoaatitntioa,  498;  thiaka  all  Stetsa 
must  agree  to  ooastitutioB.  497; 
inovea  ratification  by  ten  Stetea, 
498;    briag*    in    report   oa   «am- 
mercial    regulatioMk    601; 
committee  to  «omMi 
IwopoaHlona.  SOS:  an 
poatpoaad  amsmmaa, 
federal  bai^npiiij   Uwi  SM'  fa- 
vors mode  of  eleirtiiw  Vie*  Preri- 
de«t.  608;  waate  army  limited,  812; 
favors  Vice  PreaUeat  for  imaideBt 
of  8eeat«,  887;  woold  eubmit  con- 
•tttvtion  to  CongSBS*,  842;  think* 
Stete  bills  of  rlihte  atill  in  force, 
687;  objeets  to  power  to  cut  eanala, 
867;  favors  oceaaional  pnblieatiaa 
of  expenditure*.  867;  cvpoaas  ad- 
drea*  to  ptoph,  StS;  thU*  pewar 
of  nation  supreme  4n  rtgnfat^ 


728 


INDEX 


tradr,  6T0;  mvM  tpnointOMati 
auy  be  made  by  lower  oflcen,  678 ; 
few*  power  of  amcDdmrat,  673; 
■Hittoa  lost,  S76;  wottM  strike  out 
elsoM  (or  unendiiieBte,  676;  no- 
tloD  loet,  676. 

SUvery,  word  "Mrrltude"  •tmek  out, 
66». 

Slavpi,  inportstioB  of,  442,  469;  im- 
portation tax  on,  aireed  to,  469; 
delivery  up  of  (ngitlTe,  moved, 
481. 

Slave  trade,  till  1808  propoerd.  407; 
conflned  to  Stetea  already  permit- 
ting  it,   468. 

South  Carolina,  repreaantatlon  (ram, 
S88,  868. 

Spaight,  Rtehard  Dobba,  N.  C,  attrndi, 
17;  norea  rule  allowing  reviiion 
of  queatioBS,  21 ;  movea  queation  a( 
elfction  o(  exMtittve,  310;  (avora 
election  of  elertors  (or  executive 
by  State  Ifgialaturea,  312;  movea 
eventual  election  o(  Preaident  be 
liraitrd  to  thirteen  candidates,  R17; 
moves  seven  yeara'  tarm  (or  execu- 
tive, 62;  movea  aiz  years'  term 
(or  President,  621:  movea  electors 
meet  at  seat  of  government,  622; 
favors  reprssentatkm  by  popula- 
tion, SO;  thinks  members  o(  second 
branch  ahould  ba  chosen  by  State 
legislaturea,  19;  withdraws  mo- 
tion, 34;  movaa  term  of  mcBbers 
of  Senate  be  seven  ycmn,  94; 
agreed  to,  96;  fears  seat  of  gov- 
ernment will  be  in  New  York.  381 ; 
favors  navigatioB  acts,  484;  pro- 
poses limitatioB  OB  trcatica  of 
peace,  632. 

Stages,  power  to  rsgolate,  421. 

States,  admiaaioB  of,  agreed  to,  68,  279; 
republican  constitution  to  be 
gnaranteed  to  each  State,  paased, 
80;  assumption  of  debts  of,  pro- 
posed, 421. 

Strong.  Caleb,  Mass.,  attends,  18;  sec- 
onds one  year  (or  service  in  legis- 
lature, 144;  (avora  commitment  of 
question  of  representation  in  Sc.i- 
ato,  204:  favors  eoual  vote  in 
Scnstp  and  money  bills  in  first 
branch  of  legislature,  2SS;  thinks 
executive  ma^  he  elected  by  State 
legislatures,  312;  proposes  $4  per 
day  as  compensation  (or  members 
o(' legislature,  403;  movea  Senate 
have  power  to  amend  money  bills, 
404. 

Style  and  arrangement,  committee  on, 
appointed,  638. 

Suffrage,  restraint  o(,  361;  Ifanitetion 
to  (reeholderi,  rejected,  S56;   de- 


bated, 368 1  rsBuka  of  Jaaaa  Uadi- 

SOB  on  queatloa  a<,  819. 
Snmptaary    lawa    proposed,    429;    re- 

Jaeted,    430;    •oamittec    on,    ap- 

potatad,  668. 
Snrraader    of    erlminala    by    Btotea, 

elaase  agraad  to,  481. 

Tax  oa  nporto,  4M;  for  revenue,  i*- 
Jeetad,  441 1  by  two-thirda,  re- 
jected, 442 1  piohibltsd,  442;  re- 
ferred to  eoauBittM,  448. 

Taxation,  diraet,  Inr  representation, 
agreed  to,  848,  148;  aocordiag  to 
lepreaeatatioB,  rejected,  248;  di- 
raet eoBsidertd,  264,  MS;  aieaaing, 
438 1  apportioamaat  eonaidered, 
S17;  pnwortioBcd  opoD  representa- 
tion, 4St;  proportion  agreed  to, 
436)  by  rsprsaantatton  rejeetHl, 
438;  by  requlsitioBa,  propoaed, 
438;  rejeetad,  488. 

Taxatlo*  and  alave  trada,  eommitted, 
447. 

Taxee,  power  to  lay,  400. 

Treason,  deflaiUoa.  430;  motion  to  re- 
commit, lost,  431;  British  defini- 
tion, rejeetad,  432;  general  defini- 
tloB,  agread  to,  4SS;  two  witnesaea, 
agreed  to,  433;  sole  power  over, 
483;  rej«:ted,  433;  against  United 
Statea,  agreed  to,  434;  on  eenfea- 
aioa,  434;  clauae  agreed  to,  434. 

Treason,  psrdons,  referred  to  committee 
on  style,  644. 

Trttmum,  power  to  appoint,  415;  ap- 
poiatmeat  by  Joint  ballot,  agreed 
to,  416;  to  ba  appointed  by  legisla- 
ture, 662;  struck  out,  663. 

I^eatiee,  power  of  Soiate  over,  opposed, 
404;  to  ba  laws,  466;  power  to 
Bwke,  467,  468,  628;  power  in 
Senate,  condrmad,  460;  question 
committed,  469;  Senate's  prtiri- 
patloB  in,  620;  of  peace,  by  ma- 
jority, rejected,  631;  clause  recon- 
sidered, 682;  two-thirds  of  Senate 
to  agree  If  affecting  territorial 
rights,  632;  reconsidert^,  682;  may 
be  made  by  majority  of  Senate, 
633;  motion  not  to  require  two- 
thirds  of  Senate,  lost,  633;  to  rc- 
qnirr  eonaent  of  two-thirds  of 
whole  Senate,  rejected,  634;  to  re- 
quire majority  nf  whole  Senate, 
lost,  634  s  previous  notice  to  Ren- 
ate,  lost,  6.14 ;  with  consent  of  two- 
thirds  agreed  to,  634;  forbidden  to 
States,  667. 

University,   power   to   establish,    420; 

lost,  666. 
Vermont,  admission  of,  480,  491. 


INDEX 


729 


▼i6*  iViiidiMls  pcwffi  of,  Tvporttd* 
M7,  aMi  Modt  of  ehoMlnf,  BOB; 
to  b*  yrMid«Bt  of  SmwU,  dtbaUd, 
A27;  UTMd  to.  88«, 

Vlfgial4  pUa,  22;   d«l»Ud,  ST;   com- 
■ittM   of   wkole,   report   on,   90- 
faTor»Wy  rcportrd,  127;  m  nor 
•d,  mm. 

Voting,  right  of.    Mm  miflragc. 

War,  poww  to  auk*.  dUcuKed,  418; 
to  dacUra,  mmnta  to,  4111;  cUuw 
to  iaeiude  Itttar*  of  marqu*, 
SIS;  Statw  ■•*  not  engaa*  In. 
SW. 

Washington,  OMrgn,  Va.,  nttcadt,  17; 
•Uetcd  pTMidant  of  oouvantion,  17 ; 
■dmIu  for  tnercMed  raprewntntion, 
S7B;  Mtnet  of  tetter  from  Ocn. 
Knox,  686;  mtncta  of  letters  from 
John  0*7,  686,  687;  letter  from 
Jnmec  MMliwn,  69S. 

Wei^ts  and  mcMuret,  power  to  fix, 
■greed  to,  418. 

Wettem  oountry,  TepreMntntlan  of, 
840!  dnngere  from.  8M;  dUcriml- 
nation  against,  re]eeted,  2S?;  en- 
oouragemMt  of,  oppeeed,  480; 
claim  to,  498. 

Weetem  StatM,  admi'^aioa  of.  487. 

WUliamaon,  Hugh,  N.  C.  attcnda,  17; 
<nipoaaa  ekction  of  exeeiitlTe  by 
efectora,  42;  morvn  Impeachabillty 
of  exeentlve,  48;  seeonds  motion 
for  inaligibili^  of  execntlTe  for 
■eeoad  term,  887 1  favors  six  years' 
term  for  •xeeutWe,  888;  proposes 
elsetors  for  exeeutlre  based  on 
number  of  reprenntatives,  280; 
propoaea  aavm  years'  term  of  in- 
elii^biltty  for  reeleetion  for  execn- 
tWe,  318;  fawn  election  of  execu- 
tive by  the  people,  332;  movea 
postponemoit  of  qneation  of  suc- 
eeaaor  to  Pretidait,  472 ;  objects  to 
election  of  President  by  Senate, 
610,  816 1  moves  eventuA  election 
of  President  when  less  than  one- 
third  vote  for  one  man,  618;  moves 
that  electors  not  votll^  be  not 
counted,  617;  favors  separate  pro- 
vision for  reelecting;  President, 
610;  moves  six  years'  term  for 
executive,  681;  moves  seven  yrars' 
term  for  executive,  621;  seconds 
motion  that  electors  meet  at  seat 
ot  gDvemment.  682;  proposes  two- 
thiras  vote  of  legislature  for  effec- 
tive acts,  80;  favors  small  Senate, 
70;  approves  proportional  repre- 
sentation In  legislature,  88;  favors 
State  compensation  of  legislature, 
146;   favors  preBvrving  State  gov- 


sruMnts.  184)  suggests  six  years 
for  Senators,  186;  favors  eompen- 
sat^on  to  Seaatorsk  178;  brlnga  up 
quertion  of  ellgiMlltir  of  Senate  to 
oOli-tr*.  178 1  Mposss  intligibllity  of 
Senators  t«  Stats  oOees,  173  i  con- 
tendi.  for  equal  aavtreignty  of 
Stataa,  178;  favwa  eaaspiamtsa  on 
question  of  reprsssntatloa  in  Sen- 
ata,  804;  oppoisa  raport  at  conmit- 
taa  on  r^rassatatloa,  810;  favors 
numbers  aa  fcasia  of  represt-ntation, 
224;  on  comalttsa  on  representa- 
tion, 280;  thiaka  Southern  repre- 
sentatloa  too  amall,  827;  approves 
oonating  blacks  as  three-fifths, 
884;  tUnka  repressataUon  ut  New 
Hampshire  too  hli^,  848;  favors 
small  Senate,  810;  opposss  require- 
msnt  of  previotta  reaidenea  for 
■ambera  of  legislature,  367 ;  BMves 
repraaoitatfcm  by  taxation,  868; 
thiaks  exseutive  may  fill  vacancies 
la  Reaate,  884;  propossa  vacancies 
la  Senate  ba  arranged  by  lagisla- 
tnrsa,  384;  favors  long  term  citi- 
asBship  for  Senate,  370;  favors 
property  qualification  for  legisla- 
tura,  376;  propoaea  nine  years' 
citiasnship  for  service  in  legisla- 
ture, 384.  386;  copoaas  ellgibiiity 
of  menhera  of  lagwlature  to  offices, 
398;  insists  on  powers  of  legisla- 
ture to  tax  imports,  480;  agrees  to 
iaeUgibillty  of  memhars  of  Isgisla- 
tVfa  to  Mw  ottcas,  606;  movea 
iaeligibillty  of  members  of  legis- 
lature to  new  or  Increased  oflloes, 
608;  motion  lost,  608;  thinks 
representation  too  small,  614; 
moves  reconsideration  of  nmnber  of 
representatives,  638;  move-  recon- 
sideration of  representation,  661; 
opposes  power  of  legislature  to 
negative  State  laws,  76;  would 
modlfv  mutual  negative  of  both 
branches  of  legislature,  347 ;  moves 
three-fourths  of  legislature  to 
overrule  President's  negative,  408; 
opposes  negative  on  State  laws, 
4iffl;  movea  two-thirds  to  overrule 
negative  of  President,  564;  thinks 
money  bills  should  originate  in 
Senate,  817;  moves  to  reconsider 
questkin  of  money  bills.  363;  fa- 
vors provision  for  money  bills, 
365;  favors  money  bills  in  first 
branch  of  legislature,  383;  moves 
to  postpone  money  bill  question, 
404;  suggests  convention  has  no 
fnnds  to  pay  clergyman,  188;  fa- 
vors census.  232;  suggests  oath  to 
support   Stato  govenunenta,   304; 


730 


INDEX 


ftTori  ritlflntion  by  roBtPlltlrmt, 
307 ;  tbiak*  p*Mi(in(  tre  eseitml 
over  <|aMtioa  oi  capiui,  $SI|  up 
potrt  Nnr  York  for  irat  at  girt 
rrimrnt,  39t;  oppoMd  to  tax  on 
cxportf.  411,  4S9;  thiakt  untoratMl 
I«nds  thonld  tw  tivni  vp,  4ni  on 

Cd  coBiDittM  OB  •tramption  of 
e  debt!,  483;  would  limit  «p- 
proprlktinai  for  mraiy,  414,    pro- 
poMt  SUtc  qtiotM  kf  repTMfnU- 
tioD,    438;    oppow*    UUthm    by 
rcprfMBUtion,   l>7(   imoma  fto- 
kIbltloB  of   Mvt  trade,  446^    on 
eonalttM  oa  aaTigatkn  act*.  448 ; 
prorition    against    tm   fo$t    faeto 
lawi  tMHtumxy,  450;    tbiak*  pro- 
Tiaion  for  8UU  coBtrorcraiM  awy 
b«  BMenary.  4M;  onpoacd  to  tlav- 
err,  4M;  oa  coBanittM  on  impoaU, 
470;    faTora   two-tbirds   vota    for 
Bavtiatkm  acta,  434;   mjt  Nortb 
faroliBa   <•   dtwowd  to  give  up 
w««t«rB  laadf,  4t0|  on  eaauaittaa 
on   poctpoaad  auantfca,  MM;   ep- 
poaea  er*ation  of  Vko  PrctMaat, 
M7 ;  propoaed  Ilmitatioa  on  traatiaa 
of  p««er.  A3C;   propoacs  notice  of 
trcatica  ba  arat  to  Senator*,  SS4; 
faar*  too   mtnj  lawa,   S5S;    pro- 
po*H   (nrlea  ia  cWl  aaafa,  sM; 
would   pToMMt  dirtct  tax,   8M; 
Mggvata  that  letter  be  algned  In- 
atead  of  conatitutk*,  580. 
WilaoB.  Jamea,  Ttma..  aMmda,  17;  p»o- 
poae*  finfi*-  *xecai«T«,  a»,  9»,  4», 
aecond*  Motloai  on  pawera  ot  execu- 
tive, 39;  favor*  rffiHIoB  of  exeen- 
tive  hy   pe«M^.  4*.   41.   ««,  285; 
propooca  tht**  vtmra'  term  for  ex- 
f*vi«¥e,     40;     prapoaia     exeoutive 
couneif,     50;     movea     revlaionary 
power  ov^r  lawa  In  pxecutivr  and 
fadieiary,  5«.  204,  400;  fevora  te- 
pea<!h«*«Jty  of  executi\-e,  290,  SM; 
wiahi-e    long    term    for    exef«ive, 
314;    auggeata   olector*    for   exwM 
tive  by  lot,   316;   wlAea  to  po« 
pone  question  of  election  of  eiecu 
tive.   317     inalata  on  fixing  prln- 
flple»   o     executive,    324;    favora 
joint  bii  lot  legialaturc  for  execu- 
tive, 3^  i  •    auaiiflcationa  for  elec- 
tors, .l.'l     ee  onda  motion  for  elec- 
tion   i'   Frr  .ident    by   the   people, 
481 :    thir        larger   Statra   should 
have  pov       .n  rnoosing  President, 
462 ;   ol)ie>  t«  lo  .  enate'a  power  in 
phooeing'    President,    462;     thinka 
election  of  President  moat  difficult 
qiieation,    610:    would    leave   even- 
tual election  of  President  to  legia- 
lature,  »l«;   thinka  eventual   flec- 
tion of  President  by   Senate  dan- 
gerous, !i\9:  approves  of  executive 


rouBcil,   532;    would   allow  Pra*l> 
deal    pardoning   power  over   trca- 
aoB.  57 1 ;  favor*  election  to  larger 
branch  of  If-flslature  by  paopla,  38} 
tkink*  fliemtr*  of  both  braaehaa 
of  legidatvre  oagkt  to  be  tisetad 
hgr  p«opi*,  .<*:  mvora  alactkm  to 
lr*t  braack  of  lagtalatur*  bjr  tha 
people.  Ml    WMto  Senate   tUtetti 
if   th»  ptMl*.   TO,   73;   approvM 
proMftlanl      raMaatatatfam      ia 
Ic^atura,  88.  S4,  Mf  paaaed,  81) 
OMwe*  right  of  anffragt   la  firat 
ItfHrii  aSoold  b*  baaad  oa  eqai- 
talda  ratki,  84;  pasfed,  88;  novc* 
ratio  of  r**r*M(«tfM   to  be   ia 
proportioa  to  all  fraa  InhabitaBta 
aaa  tkrsa-fiftka  othart,  88;  naaatd. 
88;  ■»¥••  mle  of  aaffrage  ia  aae- 
oad  hraneh  abould  be  the  *aai*  aa 
ia  the  flrat,  89;  paaaad,  89;  urgaa 
two  braaehca  of  lecialatnre,   188; 
favor*  alw^ioa  to  ir*t  branch  of 
lagialature  by  the  paoplc,  143;  fa- 
Tor*  one  year  for  (cmca  in  first 
branch  of  legislature,  148;  oppoaea 
izad  compaaaation  of  lagialatur*. 
147;    favora    national   control    of 
eoBpanaation  of  legialatnrc,    148; 
0M0*»«  twentT-flv*  ytar*  a*  age  for 
••Biber*  of  flr*t  tvaaeh  of  legia> 
latort,  149;  favora  ineligibility  of 
aicmbera  of  flrat  branch  of  legia- 
lature  to  ofDcea,  I5S;  orooae*  elae- 
tioa  to  Senate  by  State  feigialaturca, 
leS;   aecond*  aiotioa  of  eix  year* 
for  Senate,  180;  powera  of  Senate, 
170;  think*  Saaate  •honld  be  *ep«- 
rated   from    Statea,   178;    oppoaea 
equal  vote  of  State*  ia  lecialature, 
180;    oppoaea    equal    auffhige    by 
Statea    In    Seaat*.    101;    propoaea 
proportion  for  ieaate.  IM:  oppoaea 
coBOKitaMat  of  q«eati<n  of  rnr^ 
sentation   te   Senate,  806;    think* 
committee    on    reprf*eBtatioB    ex- 
ceed(<d  powers.  208 ;  favor*  cotBmit- 
mem  of  queation  of  repreaeatation, 
216;  move*  to  consider  vote  In  Sen- 
ate, 215;    indate   on  proportional 
re^reaantatioB,  HHO;  oppoaea  wealth 
a*  Waia  of  repreaeataHon.  235 ;  op- 
poaea   blaelw    in     representation, 
239 ;  inaiats  ot»  proportion*'  repre- 
sentation in  Senate.  252,  8ft7:  fa- 
vora deAnitlon  of  powers  of  leglala- 
turr,    M4:    fmvora   euBtinuaace   of 
C4mgreM.  ^lO;  favitf*  fixing  tine 
for  meeting  »f  legislatitfe,  348;  fa- 
vor* meeting  of  legislative  in  win- 
ter.   naO:    tavors    iahab4taBta    for 


memliers  :if  legidatwre,  356;  op- 
poses «pv<-B  years'  resMence  in 
State  for  members  of  legialature. 


356:    wishes    short    reaidence    for 


■Mnbm  of  i»ftal«tiir*,  MT  i  movM 
to  rtcoMidcr  wv*b  jt»,n'  i«tid«iw* 
(or   mmbrri  of   UgUlaturt,  SO; 
think*  quallfleatioD*  for  IcfiaUtur* 
•iMUld  BOt  be  flzad.   S7S;    tbiak* 
qnoruia  thouM  not  Ih'  tixtd,  .I't; 
CM  right  o(  dlMMt  IB  Intl^toMf 
370;    on    Joumlt   of    iMMttnr*, 
Ml  i  propoM*  four  y«kr«*  cltlwa- 
•hip  (or  ftrat  brsaeh  of  Uglalatart, 
384,  38a;  propocM  niM  TMrt'  eitl- 
MMhip   for    BhulU,   388;    oppOM* 
Miul  Totei  In  8MMt«,  300;  fkTor* 
•Ufibility   of   Bembcrt   of   lagitU 
tore   t.)   offlcM,   300,   400,    f»Tor« 
rtriiioBary  poww  OTtr  acti,  408; 
oppoiea   appoiBtmrat*   by    8«DaU, 
466;     oppotM    HanBto     powrr    to 
m«lce    trMitiM.    488;    oppotn    ia- 
•ligibility  of  member*  of   IcgialB- 
ture  to  oflloee,  608;    thinks  leflt- 
lature   Is   judge   of   priTilege*   of 
memberi,   611;   wiihei  couacil   to 
ihnre    in    making    appointmeata, 
628;  would  include  Houae  in  treaty 
power,   628;    thinks    majority   of 
Senate  may  agr™  to  trcatirt,  880  •, 
wanta  treatlea  agrred   to  by  ma- 
jority   of    Senate,     832;     oppose* 
power  to  convene  either  house  of 
Congreaa,    637;    proposes    amead- 
meats  agreed  to  by  two-thirda  of 
Stetes,    830;     proposes    judiciary 
with  exK^tire  to  haTe  revisionary 
power,  58,  204,  408;   opposes  ap- 
pointment of  judiciary  by  national 
legislature,     68;     moves     legisla- 
ture have  power  to   institute  ta- 
ferlor    tribunals.    81;    favors    ap- 
pointment of  judges  by  eiecutive, 
278;   insists  on  revisionary  power 
for  judges,  300;  opposes  power  of 
removal  of  judges,  473;  favors  ab- 
solute   negative    of    executive    on 
laws,   61,   63;    approve*    power   of 
legislature  to  negative  SUte  laws, 
78;  agrees  to  three-fourths  of  legis- 
lature to  overrule  Pri'sldent's  nega- 
tive, 408;  favors  negative  on  Stato 
laws,  4S6;  thinks  money  bills  may 
originate  in  either  branch  of  legis- 
lature. 218.  217:   (avors  publicity 
in  money  bills,  218;  wishes  Senato 
to  originati'  money  bills,  362;  op- 
poeos    provision    for    money    bills, 
365.    .168;    favors    rstiflcation    of 
constitution    by    a    pluralitv    of 
States.  80;   proposes  seven  States 
may     ratify     constitution,     406; 
thinks  majoritv  necessary  (or  rati- 
fication, 408;  propose*  eight  SUt«* 
mav     rati(y     constitution,     408; 
thinks   only   rati(ving   Stotes   will 
be  bound,   408;   thinks  assent   of 


INDEX  Itt 

OMigr***  t»  eoastttvtion  vaaaee*- 
sary,    642;     favors    tasatloa    by 
repreaeatotioa,  244;  favor*  tos  oa 
•■port*.    411,    440,    441;     moves 
amendmsat  rslativ*  to  direct  toxa- 
tkin,     660;      aomlaata*     Tempi* 
FraakUa  for  aseratary  of  eoavm- 
tlon.    )H:    wlahs*  to  prMwrve  tb* 
SUtcs,  68)  coatrasU  Vlrgiata  aad 
J*nsy  ^aaa.   107)  diacttsas*  aft< 
tioaal      fBTcmaMBt,      ISO,      1M> 
tUaks  Stata*  will  •aenaeh  oa  aa- 
tleaal    govraawat,    140;    oppo*ea 
**Bdlag   for   delegates   from    N*w 
Hampditr*,  100 1  wipport*  righto  of 
We*t,  260;  favor*  gnaraat**  of  r*- 
publtcaa    eoaatltutloB    to    Btot«a, 
880     move*  guarantc*  of  republt- 
caa   gDvenuMBt    and   agalast   re- 
hrilioB  in  Rtatss,  281 ;  govsrameat 
to  act  separately,  200;    doe*  not 
favor  oath  to  support  gorerameat, 
304;  08  eoaimttte*  of  d*tall,  318; 
would  disqualify  debtor*  for  oflee, 
330;   favors  liberal  policy  to  for- 
slgB*r*,  388;   favor*  immlgratioB, 
386;    OB    naturaliaad   eititens    ia 
Peaasylvaaia,   887;   defines  iutic* 
aad  impost*,  410  j  oppose*  paper 
moaey,  414,  477;  thtak*  daflaltloa 
of  feloaie*  nBa«ec**ary,  416;  (aTor* 
•trlking  out  puBishowat  for  pira- 
cies, 418;  oa  deflnitioa  of  treason, 
431 ;  thinks  proof  of  trsasoa  dUB- 
eult,   433;    favors  sol*   powsr   ia 
legislature,     433;     opposes     slave 
trade,  448;  favors  aavigatioa  aeU 
fay    majority,    447,    486;    opposs* 
mention  of  e«  poe*  faefo  laws,  440 ; 
mores    pardon    befor*    eoBTtetka, 
471 ;  would  not  allow  a*w  State* 
to  violate  contracts,  478;  opposs* 
delivery  up  of  fugitive  slaves,  481 ; 
on  committee  on  mutual   reefwni- 
tion  by  .SUtes  of  public  acts,  482; 
opposes  power   to  divide  a  Stote, 
480;  thinks  SUtes  can  not  be  di- 
vided,   400;    opposes    motion    «■ 
Western  country,  402;   would  Bot 
define  law  of  nations,  663;  favor* 
power  to  cut  canals,  884;   favora 
univeraity,  684;  favors  occasional 

Publication  of  accounU  of  ezpendi- 
ures,  667;  proposes  to  hand  jour- 
als  to  President,  683. 
Wythe,  George,  Va.,  attend*,   17;   oa 
committee   on   rule*,    18;    reporte 
rule*,  18,  21. 

Tea*  and  naya  in  legislature  considered, 
379;  by  one  member,  rejected.  370. 

Yates,  Robert,  N.  Y.,  attwida,  17;  oa 
eommitte*  oa  repreaentation,  206, 
220. 


